Between characters for dragon, I mean donkey looking in the well. So I made some more, I made some more too. Here's a little picture of a donkey looking into a well. We're drawn by Luminous Owl. This is from the air. Luminous Owl. Luminous Owl. Owl? Owl. Oh, Owl. And the characters are written by me, and they say, like a donkey looking into a well, like a well looking at the donkey. And then the seal here, my seal was put on by Luminous Forest. The other Charlie. Does that say Tenshin?

[01:11]

This says Tenshin Zenki, yeah. So if you want one of these, you can have one. They're up here. You want to have one to come get one after class. What does your seal say? This seal right here? That's my name, Tenshin Zenki. I had a Chinese friend say that it meant the truthful one. Yeah, that's what my name means. Or with that motive, something like that. Yeah, it's like, Tenshin means like, You know, like when a child just, you know, reaches for a banana or something. The innocent one. Yeah, innocent, right. And also, this is the last class in the series.

[02:14]

It all surprises me how fast these classes go, but I guess it has been six classes, so that's it. You're free. Easy for you to say. Easy for me to say, yeah. And then another series of classes are starting in May. I'm sorry to say that they're going to start later than it says on the schedule because I have to go to Japan on the first meeting. So they'll start a week after. That schedule is actually correct. Oh, it is? May 19th. May 19th, okay. We do start May 19th. Huh? We do start May 19th. May 19th we start another class, and then there's another one after that. The first one's quite short. Is it four? That's pretty good. Four is pretty good. I thought it got down to three. It's four, huh? Okay. The next one starts July 7th to August 4th.

[03:17]

And then there's a column on study day. May 31st. July 7th to August 4th. You can schedule up here if you want to. I'll just leave it up there if you want. And also, I'm going to start a sitting group on Thursday nights in San Francisco, which you can come to. We have sitting and then discussion at Zen Center on Thursday nights. Starting on April 24th and going through the summer. What time is it? 7.30. Oh, that's good.

[04:18]

That's good, thanks. I think we spent quite a bit of time getting to know Wang Bo a little bit better, reading some stories about him. And towards the end of the class, I abbreviated one story about his meeting with a young man came to the monastery and this young man happened to be a person who would later become the emperor of China. Emperor Xuanzang. And that story related in

[05:23]

in the Blue Cliff record. The Blue Cliff record, this case, case 53, is case 11. And the part I talked about was particularly the dialogue between this young monk, future emperor, and Wang Bo. And the crux of the story is that This young monk had heard that it's said that Wang Bo was doing a lot of prostrations, and a lot of Zen monks, some of the great masters, spent a lot of time doing prostrations, bowing to the Buddha, bowing to great bodhisattvas. So the young monk, future emperor, says to him,

[06:49]

Let's read the story. One day Wang Bo was paying respects to an image of the Buddha and Shren Zon saw him and asked, if you don't seek from Buddha, don't seek from Dharma and don't seek from Sangha, then what are you seeking by bowing formally in this way to the Buddha? Wang Po says, I don't seek from Buddha, I don't seek from Dharma, I don't seek from Sangha. I always pay respects to Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha in this way. And Xuanzang said, well, what's the use of paying respects then? And Wang Po slapped him. And the future emperor said, too coarse.

[08:03]

And Wang Bo said, what place is this talk of coarse and fine? And slapped him again. And then later, when Trenzong became the emperor and ascended to the throne, he bestowed the title on Wang Bo of coarse-acting ascetic. Wang Bo is a his teaching has been transmitted or conveyed to us as someone who, sort of the main point he emphasized in his teaching was to steadfastly, one-pointedly give up the discrimination between ordinary and holy. between sentient beings and Buddha.

[09:05]

That's the main point of this teaching. But the people or persons who have this kind of emphasis who really feel that way, I won't say always, but in many cases the ones who convey that most strongly, to give up the distinction between holy and ordinary, between Buddha and myself, are people who are a lot of times spending time bowing. bowing to Buddha statues. But the point of the bowing is not to get something from Buddha.

[10:09]

The point of the bowing is not to make yourself the same as the Buddha. The point of the bowing is to cut through the duality between yourself and Buddha. If you make yourself the same as Buddha, there's still duality. If you identify with Buddha, there's still duality. you have to cut through this, you have to give up the distinction. And bowing is one of the main practices for giving up that distinction. And one of the ways, and when you give up that distinction, you don't wind up being arrogant, you wind up being humble, instead of being arrogant. But not humble like I'm less good than Buddha, you wind up humble like Buddha, who also has given up the distinction between ordinary and holy.

[11:13]

So the young emperor was saying, well, you know, if you don't seek from, if you're bowing without seeking from Buddha, then what's the point of bowing? What do you get out of bowing? But to get out of bowing is exactly that. You get out of bowing, what did you say? You get bowing. You get bowing. But you get more than bowing. You also get not seeking Buddha. A lot of people, I suppose, you know, I guess, don't have any, no problem about seeking Buddha. They don't seek Buddha. But to bow to Buddha and not seek Buddha, to give your whole life to Buddha and not seek Buddha. That's a different matter. Some people don't want to be friends with me or friends with you. It's okay. They don't seek friendship with us. They don't seek to be intimate with us.

[12:21]

They don't. That's fine. Right? Tentatively, it's fine. But if they come to where we are and devote their life to us and basically formally or informally prostrate themselves to us, and then they don't seek to become intimate with us, that's different. How are they going to devote their life to us without seeking to be intimate with us, without seeking to get anything from us? How can they bow to us and be devoted to us just to bow to us, just to devote to us, without trying to get anything out of it? It's hard to do. It's easy to not do anything and not try to get anything out of things. And some people actually even try to get things out of things without making an effort. But if you make a big effort, a steady effort, And then without trying to get anything, that's really something.

[13:25]

And so that's what this is about. The practice is about that. So the people, the Zen monks, who are not trying to get Buddha, and also don't discriminate between Buddha and ordinary people, that's their main practice, they don't just like say, you know, well, so what, no Buddha, no problem, see you later. They're always there working for Buddha. without trying to get anything out of it. Does anybody have that transmission of the light with them? It's okay. It's all right. Anyway, we're reading today, you know, one of the cases in there, too, about this same point from one of the Indian ancestors called, what is it, Shima. How do you say it in Japanese? Shishibodai. Shishibodai daisho. Same teaching.

[14:27]

Wokim. Not seeking, not seeking. So, we, of course, are seeking to become Buddha, but of course, in order to realize that goal, you have to give up seeking to become Buddha. And you have to give up as Buddha, as something outside yourself. And the way you give up something outside yourself is you go to a Buddha without seeking to get anything from the Buddha. And you even get confirmation from Buddha and then give up the confirmation because you don't want that confirmation to obstruct You're Buddha. This is Wang Bo's teaching, very much as he specialized in this point. Any questions so far?

[15:34]

Is it true that he didn't have disciples? Is it true he didn't have disciples? Well, yeah, he had disciples, but they were lousy disciples. Like, for example, he had this disciple called Lin Ji. I mean, that's like, is that a disciple? Who's that, Rinzai? Yeah, Rinzai was his disciple. Lousy, you call him? Worse than lousy. Yeah, that's one of his disciples. That's the kind of disciples he had. The kind of disciples that are totally, you know, they show their gratitude, you know, to you. by, you know, throwing your confirmation out the window. Really nice, huh? But this actually is the kindest, the greatest disciple, the best disciple, is a disciple that doesn't need, gets rid of the teacher. Yeah. This is Wang Bo's thing. Yes? I also thought that Wang Bo's prostrations was an expression of himself, you know, of his deep gratitude that found a way.

[16:41]

Not to show anybody else or anything, or even the Buddha, just because that's the only way to somehow do something to express. Yeah. Right. Just expressing himself. Not trying to get anything. Just expressing himself. Kind of like Since you mentioned it occurred to me that this dialogue that he had with the emperor then was repeated in the next generation between Limshi and Puhua where Puhua when they were up at a feast, and he said to Pouvoir, how did you enjoy the feast today? Pouvoir kicks over the table, and then she says to him, of course. And he then repeats, on those lines, what place is there for finding course? Yeah, Pouvoir was a

[17:49]

Puhua means universal flower. And one day Puhua and, oh no, Puhua used to come to town, you know, with his staff. And he was swinging around in the air when he came to town, swinging around in the air. What do you say? A song in the air? When they come in the light, I hit them in the light. When they come in darkness, I hit them in darkness. And some monk came and told Linji about that. And Linji said, Linji's Wangbo's disciple, Linji said, next time he comes to town when he does that, ask him, what is it? And then invite him to lunch. So they did that. Lingyi's disciples waited for Puhua when he came and did that thing with the staff.

[18:51]

He said, he wants to invite you to come to dinner. Puhua came to dinner, came to lunch. And then Wangbo put the food out for him. And Puhua took his food and put it on the ground and ate without using his hands. Do you understand? just, you know how you eat when you don't use your hands? Or your chopsticks? Just mouth to bowl. And Linji said, you're eating like a donkey. And Fu Hua went, hee haw, hee haw. And Linji was The great master was surprised. And Phu Ho said, Methinks the master has one eye. This is an early version of the story.

[19:54]

A later version of the story, they fixed it up to make the Linji sound better. But this is a story not written by Linji's disciples. And then later they changed it when they put it into the book of the great master. So, anyway, Wang Bo had some disciples. It's just that he was afraid he wouldn't have any disciples if he inherited the Dharma from Matsu. Another thing to remember here is that, so there's Linji, Wang Bo, Bai Zhang, Matsu. Okay? So, Baizhang tells Wangbo a story about Matsu, and Wangbo is kind of like, about Matsu, and then Baizhang says, will you inherit the dharma of Master Ma?

[20:55]

And he says, I can't, no, I won't, because I'm afraid I won't have any disciples if I do. So Baizhang, the thing about Baizhang to remember is that Baizhang has the same teaching. of not seeking anything. And his thing was, instead of bowing, his thing was working. He worked. So again, these are people who are not making a distinction between Buddha and ordinary, and he's working. He works. He does physical work. He says, if you don't work, you shouldn't eat. That was his practice, to emphasize his point, is to work. So there's one of the ways to understand this story is when Wang Bo comes in the hall and starts swinging his staff and tries to drive the monks out of the hall and they don't move, right?

[21:57]

That's the story. That's not the main case here, but before the main case, Wang Bo comes in the hall, big guy with the staff, and starts swinging it around and the monks don't leave. And he says, if you go like this, You're a bunch of dregslippers. If you live like this, if you don't run away or leave, how will you have today? So one understanding of this is that they froze in their tracks because they were afraid. Another understanding is that they didn't want to leave their great teacher. They wanted to stay with the great teacher and gobble the dregs. Here's the great teacher saying to them, get out of here. Stop trying to get something from me. If you try to get something from me, you're a drag slipper.

[22:57]

You won't have your own life if you try to get something from me. So the better the teacher, supposedly, the more they push you out the door and the more they try to push you out the door, the more you want to stay because they're showing you how good they are and you want to get it. And the more you want to get it, the more they tell you to get out. Of course, that's not true, but here it's easy. We just have six-week classes and then it's over and you can leave. You come back. Why do you come back? Oh, for the food. Arlene wrote this poem one time. Monday night, we arrive in BMWs, Volvos, Leave our Nikes at the door. Pad softly across the polished floor. Zendo is larger at night. The ceiling is higher.

[23:58]

The statues on wooden platforms, golden in the dim light. The thinker is the mind and the thought of as the environment. We sit in a circle studying the Book of Serenity, watching the blue-eyed priest, Nordic cheekbones, black robes, shaven head. Above us, ancestors float on waves of incense. Linji, Yunmen, Guishan, Wangbo, laughing boisterous, baiting their hooks. Reverse your thought and think of the thinking mind. Are there so many things there? Thought wiggles wildly, thrashes from side to side, babbles then falls silent. When I get there, I don't see any existence at all. Where did I get that?

[25:04]

Where did you get it? Where did I get it? I don't know. Strange? It's really strange. Did anybody else write any poems that I'm going to pull out of my bag? Okay, so that's that. So there's so much more material here. We can start going through it, but is there anything you want to bring up before we do? I really like this line where he says that Wang Bo can hear ants, clearly hear ants arguing and perceive the finest autumn hair.

[26:14]

Wang Bo can hear ants arguing and perceive the... perceive the... Finest autumn hair. the finest autumn hair. What about the teachers that teach that there are no teachers? What about the teachers who teach that there are no teachers? What do you mean, what about them? I mean, he says, like, what about them? What does he mean by this? What about those who guide followers in these places? I just said that there are no teachers, but he's teaching them. So, it's collapsing in itself. He is a teacher by saying that he doesn't teach, or that there are no teachers. I mean, I understand what you're saying, but I think he, I mean, he's also saying that no, even he's not a teacher.

[27:23]

Because the point is to teach you so that you understand that really there aren't teachers. But he looks, now he looks like a really good teacher to make the point that there aren't teachers, right? But when you really understand him, you realize he really wasn't a teacher. Because what he's teaching you, if you really get what he's teaching you, you understand that he wasn't somebody other than you. Okay, but he helps me, he helps me, right? What? He helps me realizing that. Yeah, he helps you realize that, yeah. Isn't that what a teacher is? Somebody who helps you on the way, realizing that you really don't need him or her? Right, but what he's teaching you is that he's not actually there. That you're just seeing yourself and putting it outside yourself as a helper.

[28:31]

And he's not going to be that helper. And you say, well, that's really a wonderful helper. But then again, you're saying, well, that's a wonderful helper. He's trying to tell you that it's not that over there that's the wonderful helper. That's what he's trying to tell you. But it's also not over there. It's not over where you are either. It's more dynamic than that. And that dynamism, that tremendous dynamism, which we can't grasp, is that there is that. There is that. That's the Zen. That's all over the place. So then people say, well, what about this and that? Well, I'm not saying there's not Zen. I'm just saying there's not that over there. There's not any that's, really. There are objects of awareness. Yeah.

[29:32]

But those objects of awareness are just part of delusion. The actual teachers are not out there. Now, in order to understand that, you have to go and pretend like there's teachers. Because we have that in our mind. You have to bring your dualistic thinking out and give it up. And if you're dedicated to help that process happen, then you could be called a teacher. But there really aren't any teachers. There aren't any students either. Yes. Peter, is it? Yes, Peter.

[30:33]

When you're speaking of this, I really remember that last night I dreamt that somebody was teaching and I woke up and I still think I learned a lot from it. Yeah, right. So Wang Bo is teaching that the way your mind itself is Buddha. Buddha is not out there. There's not a teacher out there. The way your mind is, is Buddha. The way your mind is the teacher. And the way your mind is the teaching. And the way your mind is the learning. The confirming and the confirmed are the same thing. Yeah. Well, you know, last week you said something about not leaving home. Yeah. That kind of reminds me of what we were talking about. Yeah.

[31:36]

Because when you say there's a teacher out there, that makes sense, but when you say it isn't here either, that's where I kind of get lost. Because when you said that last week, then I felt like, well, just not moving from where you are. Yeah. But not moving from where you are feels like being here, or this. So, I mean, in other words, saying there is a here. And I heard you say that. Now, moving from here, okay, includes that the there stays, too. But the point is, you stay still and deal with here and there. But you don't mess with here and there. and you try to give up the distinction between here and there, between this and that, between yourself and Buddha, between yourself and others, while taking care of self and other.

[32:43]

By taking care of, while bowing to other, bowing to other as a way to get intimate with letting go of the distinction. If you mess around with the self-other relationships, if you're maneuvering those, then you're substantiating that separation, and you're substantiating your separation from Buddha or from other people. If you try to become more holy, you substantiate that ordinary and holy are separate, and then all your ordinariness is separate from holiness. But if you just sit still and stop messing around and stop manipulating, all the dynamics are set up and you gradually move to the center of the dynamic. The dynamic interdependence between Buddha and sentient beings, between self and other, between good and evil, you sit in the middle of all that when you don't move. You gradually move to the center of that tremendous vitality of your mind.

[33:51]

And at the most energetic place there, you realize Buddha. So we need to develop the ability to sit still and to move to the center of our life. And one of the ways to do that is to recognize that you're there and I'm here. But then stay with that. And don't forget that you're there and that I'm here. Don't lose track that I'm here. If you lose track of that, I may say, hello, hello, hello. But if you lose track of yourself, I may say, hello. Either way, if you lean towards yourself, towards there or here. The key word is kind of not messing with it. Yeah, don't mess with what's happening. Stay close to what's happening with no manipulative activity without trying to seek anything. But don't stay away from everything as a way to avoid seeking.

[34:53]

be present with what's happening, and maybe even take on some practices that you enjoy, like sitting zazen, sitting still, doing bows, going to talk to teachers, studying scriptures, do all that stuff if you like. If you like, do it. If it seems good, and it sees as a way for you to settle into not moving, and then if you start trying to get something from the scriptures, then you're meddling. trying to get something from the teacher, get something from bowing, get something from sitting, and you're off. You know it. Come back. Then you're enchanted by the separation. Okay? Okay? I have a kind of broad question, something that's still a question to me, is that the word Zen, what Zen is, what is different about Buddhism, other forms of Buddhism than Zen Buddhism?

[36:01]

Well, I think tonight, in some sense, we're touching upon what's really one of the characteristics of Zen, is its emphasis on not seeking Buddha. Zen monks want to be intimate with Buddha. Intimate with Buddha. They don't want to be separate from Buddha. They don't want to be the same as Buddha. Like this one Vietnamese Zen monk. He went to a party one time. I think the Vietnamese queen invited him. He was kind of a well-known Zen teacher. She invited him to the meal and he was not a vegan. eating a lot of meat and dairy products and drinking a lot and she said, you know, do you know what she said? I think she said, you're really a disgrace, you're not acting like Buddha at all. And he says, I don't want to be like Buddha and Buddha doesn't want to be like me. So I think that

[37:06]

I mean, there's a limit to this. So I think in some ways that's one of the things about Zen is to emphasize that non... a strong emphasis on non-duality in Zen school. At the same time, it isn't that we're just straight pigs in that... Because that's too easy. We actually, you know, express our devotion and see if we can be very devoted without trying to get something. Can you be devoted to somebody who is like totally out of control? You know, not giving you anything back for it. Yeah, you can. You can. Can you be devoted without seeking?

[38:13]

Can you be devoted without some gaining motivation? Yes. And that kind of practice is what Buddha is like. Buddha is devoted without trying to get anything. So that's a particular characteristic of Zen. Zen schools are actually trying to become Buddha by the practice right now. You know, because it seems like people are trying to get something, like they're trying to change their state of existence. We have open door here. We have open door here. We let anybody come in, even people who are not interested in this non-gaining practice. If people want to come in here and get something, we let them in. Is Zen different in that way? I think it's different in what way? Are other forms of Buddhism more of a process of trying to go through all these procedures and disciplines in order to come to a certain different level of existence?

[39:17]

Some forms seem to be that way. Whether they're ultimately that way or not, it's not clear. But some forms seem to say, yeah, you can come and get something. And even in some Zen places, they talk like that. But sort of the hallmark of the Zen school is There are no teachers. There are no Zen centers. And that's why we have Zen centers, is to help people understand that. Because if you didn't have any Zen centers, then people would just think there were some other kind of centers. Not all centers are dedicated to, you know, to teach people that they aren't really there. That's a special emphasis of the Zen school. is to free people from the practice. But you have to do the practice. You can't just say, okay, well, let's not do it then. You have to do the practice thoroughly in order to sort of say, no, I don't need it.

[40:20]

So Zen practice is just as hard as the other ones. It's just that from the beginning they tell you you're wasting your time. Well, you know, they actually, they won't do that. I tell them to say that, but at Zazen instruction, they don't tell people that. I say, tell them they're wasting their time. Why wait till later from having me tell, break the news to them? So they have these really nice Zazen instructors who tell them, you know, it's going to be good for your health, you're going to get better looking, which is true. It is good for your health. You do get better looking. You know, your kids will love you. All this stuff is true, but you shouldn't tell them that. You tell them it's a waste of time. And then they'll find out, actually, you get all these jewels for doing it. But if you tell them you're going to get it and that's what they come for, they won't get it. But if they practice not trying to get anything, they're going to get tremendous benefit. Because you get tremendous benefit from being selfless. Being selfless is the most beneficial strategy.

[41:23]

There's a lot of similarities to existentialism, I think, too. Yeah, except we have prostrations. What? Yeah, we have all the ceremonies. Yeah, we have Bodhisattva. We have what? We have Bodhisattva. And we also... And Henry Frohman. We got him. I've seen a couple of references in other works, and I see it again here, and I don't understand it at all. It's this concept of horizontally and vertically.

[42:23]

And here it's in Huang Bo's long speech that we have the front part of it quoted where it says, those who leave home should know something of the perennial matter, but even great master Rong of Octet Mountain, successor to the fourth patriarch, could speak horizontally and vertically, but still didn't know the transcendental key. Can you shed some light on what this horizontal and vertical speaking or understanding or rather... Well, one meaning of horizontal and vertical is horizontal, vertically, you can align yourself with the lineage. You can speak such a way that you accord, you can, you know, what do you call it, to fluently communicate with the ancestors. You can become, you know, you can channel the ancestors. Okay? The other way is you can relate to the current situation. You can talk to people of this generation. You can make the teaching relevant to people's lives.

[43:25]

You can talk to farmers about their problems and turn the Dharma in a way that guides them in that realm. So you can make an old-fashioned thing relevant to today. So you can do this. That's what it's like. It means horizontally we're all on the same level. Right now we eat We're the practitioners right now. We're it. The ancestors are not the practitioners anymore. We're doing the actual work. People in the future aren't doing the practice. We are. That's the horizontal. But also, we depend on history. And we wouldn't be doing this practice except for the ancestors. And the question is, are we in line with them or not? And then you have to balance... being in line with the ancestors, with relevance. It should be relevant. But sometimes you want to sacrifice the lineage for relevance.

[44:27]

That doesn't work. Or you might sacrifice relevance for the lineage. That doesn't work. You know what I mean? Sometimes you may think to compromise with something you've received because it would be more popular. In fact, if you're in alignment with the vertical succession, the vertical teaching, there's always a danger that you know, people won't put up with it, because it's so, you know, old-fashioned or whatever, to say the least. Or just, you know, they don't like it anyway. They don't get anything out of it. But, you know, to hold to the ancient way rigidly and not make it relevant, that's not really, that's not right either. So he got to do both. And this guy, the ox head guy, could do both, but Wang Bo says he couldn't, you know, he couldn't, like, go above, beyond the ancestors. That was his criticism.

[45:29]

Yes? This business about non-dual and nothing out there but protection. No, it's not that there's nothing. I'm over here. I'm here. Hello. I'm not nothing. It's just that what you see is your projection. But I'm not what you see. I'm really not. But what you see is what you see. But that isn't what you get. So, there is something out there besides my projections and my perceptions, but I can't see it. All I can see is my own mind. That's all the way we are. I experience, there is an experience of tremendous peace and other times the same thing, terrible despair.

[46:38]

I'm not really even sure what I'm asking, but I was interested if there's a way that you could catch something in what I'm saying to maybe talk about it a little bit. Because it feels to me like... Well, there's three things. One is the peace. Okay? That's okay, isn't it? Yes. And the other is the despair. And then there's a relationship between the peace and the despair. Right? But the despair you see is partly good because there's some sense there that you can't, there's no hope to be able to do anything with the situation. All your power is shot. So the relationship is in one case you feel comfortable with your powerlessness, In the other case, you sense that your power is never going to work. You have no hope of being able to do anything with the way things are.

[47:43]

If you can accept that, then you're at peace. But they're closely related. It's the selfishness that's the problem. Yeah, the I. So again, intimacy with a person is not to be the same as them, and it's not to be different. If you feel different from people, that's not intimacy.

[48:45]

If you switch over and try to be the same as people, that's not intimacy. Intimacy is ungraspable. Intimacy is something that you don't own and they don't own. Intimacy is how you create each other. I mean, how you are creating each other is your intimacy. And being devoted to someone helps you not get control of them, but it does promote intimacy, because it helps you see any tendency to control them.

[50:06]

Because again, when we're devoted to someone, any tendency to control will tend to surface, if there is a tendency still there. And then part of the devotion to them, to the other person, is to study that tendency to control them, or get something from them. or even to be with them in a way you want to be with them, to be with them on your own terms, which is slightly different from being there as yourself. So are you saying that to be intimate with oneself I wasn't clear what you meant about creating intimacy with another. You're talking about creating intimacy with oneself, and out of that is... I wasn't talking about creating intimacy.

[51:21]

I was more like talking about finding it or realizing it. We already have intimacy. But when I say we have intimacy, I should maybe say there already is intimacy. We don't have it, though. We can't have it. But you can discover it. And one of the ways to discover it is by being devoted to another person. When you're devoted to someone, your tendency to... all your non-intimate tendencies start to surface. They're there already. But when you're not devoted to people, you don't notice your non-intimacy. Your non-intimacy isn't such an issue. What about being... if you were alone in a cell... Pardon? If you're alone in a cell? Right. By yourself? Right. Yes. Then that could theoretically be the same process, then. Yes. Devotion to oneself in that discovery.

[52:23]

Is that right? Yes. Right. However, after you did all your work there... Right. then you still might try to do it with a person who seems to be other, and see if you then could devote yourself in the same way to the relationship, and see if you actually had, if you felt like you'd gotten over all the non-intimate ways of being with yourself. When we're by ourselves in a cell, You know, what do we do? I mean, you know, this is a good time to learn the history of the universe, right? Or, you know... Well, it sounds like being yourself. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, anyway, this is... I mean, it's good, you know. A lot of people do learn how to read when they're in prison, right? That's nice. Or some people actually become lawyers in prison, right? It's nice. It's good. Fine. Wholesome activity. But... to actually be in prison and actually just not order any books, but actually like, and not turn TV on, and not lift weights, you know, and whatever.

[53:29]

Not, just sit there and be there with this person. So we have this special program here of going to Zendo, you can't bring books in there with you. You know? There's not much happening, so you turn on your own TV set and start thinking about your neighbors or whatever, right? Or going to sleep and dreaming wonderful dreams, or listen to the frogs, all those frogs, you know? We know how to entertain ourselves, but is this entertainment just the mind bubbling, or is it actually distracting us from studying the bubbling of the mind? And gradually you can tell the difference between just the mind bubbling and distracting yourself from studying the bubbling. You learn. You spend that time.

[54:32]

And maybe you finally feel like, I'm actually willing to be devoted to being with myself. Now I've gotten to that point. Then you go try it with somebody else. And particularly try it with somebody who, you know, who you respect and somebody you actually could listen to, pay attention to. Somebody that's really somebody for you. See if you can do the same thing then. Be devoted to them and not trying to get anything or control anything and actually be with them. See if you can do it there too. And that confirms... And then can the confirmation not be something coming from outside or inside? And when the confirmation is not coming from outside or inside, this is real confirmation. And this work can be done anytime, anyplace, if we're devoted to what's in front of us.

[55:37]

But again, to be devoted to what's in front of you, you have to be where you are, so you can look and see where in front of you is, and then pay attention to it. So you have to stand your own ground, feel your body and experience, and then pay attention to what's in front of you. Not just pay attention to what's in front of you, also feel what it's like here, both sides. And then how do you take care of yourself to do that work? How do you prepare yourself and feed yourself and rest yourself and exercise yourself for that purpose? And doing those things is really part of helping others. That's why to be able to do this with a clear conscience and really give yourself to this

[56:48]

It needs to be, you need to understand that this is actually making you into the person that will be most helpful to others. That's why this whole thing starts from compassion. So you really feel you can work at this. And you can do this for yourself. In other words, you can give yourself the opportunity to be present and to pay attention and to be intimate. It's not It's not selfish to practice in a way that will surface your awareness of your selfishness. This kind of practice will make you more aware of how selfish you are. And you get more skillful at handling your selfishness and integrating it into your awareness.

[57:55]

So it won't be behind you, driving you anymore. It'll be out in front more. You can feel selfish all the time. But the revelation of selfishness is not selfishness. It's just honesty, honest awareness. And then, when your selfishness is out there, you can also be devoted to others simultaneously. And you can see when that devotion conflicts with the selfishness, it won't block it entirely. And you can see how they work with each other, and they're actually quite intimate, too.

[58:59]

Selflessness, selfishness, devotion, intimacy, they're all swirling around together. And nobody can teach you how to do this. I'm talking about this, but I can't really teach you how to do this. Almost seems like I can, but I can't. That's the story. how to do it? Do I? Yeah, I do. I do know how to do it.

[60:00]

I mean, I know how to practice it. I know how to practice studying my selfishness. I know how to practice devotion. And I know how that realizes intimacy. And I know how intimacy is what it's about. I know how intimacy is peace and fearlessness and vitality and happiness. And I know how I can't do that alone, too. And how I don't do it by myself, but I know how it happens. And I know what I have to, I know what my job is. My job is to be willing to pay attention to that. And I know I need other people in order to do that. And other people don't teach me how to do it, but it happens when I'm with them.

[61:14]

Yes, sir. One of the differences is that in Doksan, people almost never go to sleep. I've never had anybody go to sleep in Doksan. It's funny, now I think of it. I think people are too embarrassed, and maybe

[63:06]

afraid of what might happen while they're sleeping. Have you ever fallen asleep? I fall asleep when people don't talk to me. You know, if they're talking but not to me, I go to sleep pretty fast. But I don't do it much anymore. I used to do it because I used to think I should be able to stay awake when people aren't talking to me. But actually, pretty much any time of day or night, if somebody walks up to me and stands in front of me and starts not talking to me, I pretty much go to sleep right away. Or I walk away. But nowadays, I usually stop before I get sleepy. I don't let it go very far. I say, you know, I say, what's the point of coming out of your way to come and sit down and not talk to me?

[64:07]

You can do that any time, any place, but why come here and not talk to me? And then most people agree that that makes sense. There's no need to go out of your way to go and not talk to somebody. It's the ultimate non-talking experience. Pardon? It's the ultimate non-talking experience. What do you mean? To come to some place like this and not talk. Yeah. Or come to meet somebody and not meet. Go out of your way and say, I want to meet you and then not meet. Of course that happens, but then we know that's not the point, right? So anyway, I used to go to sleep more because I thought I was supposed to be able to tolerate that, but then now I realize that I'm a human being, and human beings really don't like that, and it's not normal. So now I just say, So pretty much, you know, I try as soon as I start losing interest, I try to say I'm losing interest.

[65:23]

I try to do that right away. But it's hard, you know, because sometimes there's a flicker of losing interest right away. I see their foot and I just feel like... It's not interesting the way you're putting your foot down. I don't want to not... I don't do it right away. But as soon as I feel I can do it when it's not too much, I do it. Do you understand what I mean? No. No? What part don't you understand? What do you want to say? Are you saying that you're talking to somebody else and not to you? Yeah, something like that. But what do they say that leads you to believe that? They call me… It's time.

[66:26]

It's time. It's time. Let's see if I can give some more examples. Sometimes people come and talk to me about things, you know, rather than... Rather than this.

[67:42]

Rather than telling me what's happening, they talk about So they don't want to talk about themselves or me. They want to talk about something that's got nothing to do with what's happening now. And people want to do that. And then I feel like, well, what did you come here for then, if you don't want to talk about what's happening? Now, if they would say, I don't want to talk about what's happening because I'm afraid to talk about what's happening, then that's different. So which category do I fall in? What category do you fall in? What are the categories? Tell me the categories. Like, I speak...

[68:45]

You mean, are you good or bad? No, I mean, it's like you said, do I make you fall asleep? No, have I? Have I gone to sleep? Well, there's been a note. Have I gone to sleep? Yeah, but you've brought that up a few times, and I wasn't sure what you were referring to when you said people that come and talk to me. You mean I might have been referring to you? Yeah, occasionally I've thought about that. What category do I fall in? Yeah. That's reasonable. But you'd wonder. And you'd like to know. Which one? One time, Suzuki Roshi said, blah, blah, my disciples, blah, blah. And I thought, hmm, I wonder if I'm one of the disciples. So I went and asked him, I said, who are your disciples? I didn't say, am I one of your disciples? I said, who are your disciples?

[69:50]

I just tried to figure out what are the criteria for the categories of disciples and non-disciples. So then he told me how he categorized them. He said, there's two kinds of people at Tatsahara. those who are here for themselves and those who are here to help others. He said, the ones who are here to help others are my disciples. Those who are here to help themselves are not my disciples. But he said before that, he said, I don't like this, but my mind does this. It does this categorization thing. But to me, I'm not categorizing people. I'm categorizing ways that people are. The same person can be fascinating or put me to sleep. I never, never, when somebody's really themselves, I never go to sleep. It's like the most interesting thing in the world to see somebody being themselves. So, if I'm talking to somebody, like you, and you're being yourself, I'm very interested.

[70:51]

But if you move away from being yourself, and stop being yourself, I lose interest big time. But if you switch back to being yourself again, I get interested again. So you might, if you flicker back and forth, you know, I kind of go, huh? It's not you're a certain type of a person, it's that you're working at showing yourself and being yourself and expressing yourself or you're running away from that. And you run away from it, I lose interest. I don't want to support that. You don't need my help on that. When you're being yourself, you don't need my help either. But I'm very happy to see it. The other one, I just figured, like, well, this is a good time to get a nap, I guess. I'll rest until she comes back. So it's not you or you or you. It's the way of, you know, like, being there, taking care of the situation.

[71:54]

being responsible for, you know, you being you. That's really interesting and alive and dynamic. And that relates to me. And there's also you not doing your job for many good reasons of past karma and so on. There's that too. But I'm not interested in that, actually. And I don't think it does you any good for me to be interested in that, either. But I do put up with it for some amount of time without falling asleep. I try, but I don't go too long because I figure I'm not doing you a favor if I go too long with that. So I usually raise my hand and say something to get it back on track, to get you back on yourself. And the longer I know the person, the more trust they have, the shorter the time, because, you know, the trust develops, so you get more skillful with each other, and you trust that that's what's going on, and it's mutual, too.

[73:17]

If I go off, you know, way off someplace, you know, you're welcome to pull me back, too. Really, I'm not kidding. If you're losing, that's why in these classes I say, if you're checking out, raise your hand and get yourself back into the swing of it. Don't drift away from the class. If you're scared, that's not so bad. That doesn't mean you should stop the class, but if you're drifting away, stop it. Bring yourself back in the middle. Drifting away is not the only reason to participate. Yeah? I'm drifting away. May I? I didn't mean you. Just speaking on behalf of all of you.

[74:19]

Are you drifting away too? Well, anyway, so you're not drifting away now, are you? Not at this moment. Right. All it takes is to say, I'm drifting away, and you're back. Pretty much. That's all it takes. You may have to say it again and again, but... And so maybe there'll be more people saying they're drifting away. Which is fine for me. It's a strange situation, but we can do it. Mark? How do you know when someone's being decided on? How do I know? It isn't like I know it. It's that I'm interested or not. It's not like, oh, I know.

[75:21]

You know, I can tell when you're being yourself or not. Now, of course, sometimes I can't, you know. Sometimes I can tell when somebody's like, like just not, you know, they just really are lying flat out, you know. they come in and they just talk about anything but what they want to talk about that sometimes I kind of know. And sometimes it's so outrageous that even that's interesting. But I don't really know. I don't really know. Was there somebody else back there just a second ago? Oh, Jeremy? Yeah. Maybe it's just me, but I think, it seems like when I know someone is being present with me, I feel less likely to drift off.

[76:29]

I mean, start just blabbing about something really unconsciously. Yeah, you may be that way. Is that not true in general? Well, I think it's true for a lot of people that they feel uncomfortable when they're with someone that feels present with them. But then sometimes because they feel uncomfortable, they start talking a lot. Actually, yeah. Yeah. So, but in that case, in some situations that are set up, you can, you know, You know, you can say, is this, you know, do you really want to be talking about this? Is this really what you came here for? I wonder about this, you know. Or you can just sometimes ask a person how they're feeling. Ask, you know, bring it back to just some present situation. If people are just rattling away about themselves... That's still different. But people don't usually rattle away about themselves.

[77:30]

Just, you know, non-stop monologue about what's going on internally. But if they are, I'm happy to listen to that, actually, for quite a long time. Actual reportage of what's happening. But people tend to rattle in about things that aren't going on here. Arlene? Arlene? When somebody comes here and doesn't talk about themselves, it seems to me that's a perfect expression of their fear. So they're really expressing themselves, expressing their fear by not talking about themselves. What's the difference between that and this business about expressing yourself? You know, last time you used to talk a lot about fully expressing yourself. And isn't that really a full expression of your fear that you would come here and not talk about yourself? Well, I think you could say everybody's always fully expressing themselves, right?

[78:34]

But then again, you can express yourself more fully than you have in the past. So for example, I don't know, somebody like you could go up to a piece of marble, you know, and I give you a hammer and a chisel and you can go over and you can whack it. You say, I fully express myself. So you fully express yourself maybe as somebody who did their first whack on a piece of sculpture. Fully expressing yourself. But that's different than to keep hitting it for several years. and see what that's like. So, if someone comes and expresses their fear by not talking about what's happening, that's maybe the best they can do at that time. And then, in the marble here, comes back at them with snoring, perhaps. And they sort of wonder, you know, here I am talking about this interesting topic, and this person's asleep. Or this person is going, you know, what are you talking about?

[79:39]

I don't understand what you're talking about. Or, how are you feeling? That coming back at you then, maybe then you express yourself back to that. And then you express yourself more than you would if the person wasn't there saying, I don't understand what you're saying. Did you say, did I hear you? Blah, blah, blah. And then finally you can say, well actually, I'm afraid. And maybe you didn't even know you were afraid. But, you know, your first expression got a response which promoted, so back and forth. I guess what's difficult to work with is when you can't even, you can't even, it's like I guess somebody's working on something and they're not getting any feedback from it. If they're not getting any feedback, then I'm like, I don't have any role, I don't have any participation.

[80:40]

And I don't know if that's what's used to people. And sometimes I can be perfectly quiet and be giving people tremendous feedback. I mean, I'm not trying to give them feedback, but my presence and my quiet, I can tell, I can just feel like, I have things to say to people. But I often feel like what I have to say is nothing compared to me not saying something. I find that my silence is sometimes much better than phrases or wisecracks that come up in my head. Even though they're fairly good sometimes compared to just the person dealing with a person sitting there and listening to them. I just sometimes can't really come up to that. So they're getting heavy feedback from me being quiet and still. And some people have difficulties with whatever. Sometimes they think they're having difficulty with me. And for years they have difficulty with me. And I used to maybe talk to somebody else about the difficulty.

[81:45]

And sometimes the advice I would get was, don't do anything. And I wouldn't do anything for years. And the person would just use me not doing anything for years and just get tremendous amount out of that. Go through all this stuff, you know. And the fact that I didn't do anything or say anything was just perfect. What is the difference about, you know, if you're really afraid of fully expressing yourself by not talking about, you know, what's really happening, whatever. Maybe it's because also you're not conscious of it. Right. It's like when you're conscious of it, you're fully expressing yourself. Then you're more awake. You're more present with the other person. So one level of fear is you're afraid even to say that you're afraid. Next level of fear, you can say you're afraid, but you can't say what you're afraid about.

[82:48]

But again, once you start revealing a little bit, then the process has started. Yes. Thank you. It's really nice to get an invitation to express myself, maybe ourselves. And for me, the experience is like not knowing what's going on, but it feels right. You have the experience right now of not knowing what's going on? Yeah, like, there's this experience like, like something's wrong, or like not knowing what's going on, or confusion, or something like that, but it doesn't... and fear, but it feels right. Well, what comes to my mind is that fear, confusion, and not knowing what's going on, okay, whatever that is, and then is there something else besides that in this world?

[83:58]

Is there Buddha? Is there peace and freedom and happiness, which is something which you would discriminate from what you described? I think people could imagine that, right? In order to be Buddha, you have to give up that discrimination. And maybe you're somewhat willing to just accept, maybe there's a feeling there of being able to accept confusion, not knowing and feeling something's wrong. Some little bit of feeling of you're just sitting there with that and not so much thinking about what else is there or anything. There's something that feels right about that. And when that gets very strong, the rightness of that and how the being that way is that that being confirmed and the confirming of it are the same thing.

[85:03]

Being that way, just being that way and the confirming of it are the same thing. It isn't like Buddha confirms you being this person right now. You being that way is the confirming of you being that way. And I'm telling you that but I'm not confirming you. I'm just telling you that the confirming of you being that way is exactly the same as you being that way. I'm telling you that, but I'm not confirming you. I could confirm you, but I'm not going to make that difficult for you right now. I'm going to tell you that if I did, you'd need to have that not be outside yourself. That's Wang Bo. You said that teaching, there is no teaching, and is the path not a teaching?

[86:05]

Is the path not a teaching? I don't understand what you mean. The path. Oh, the path. No, the path. Oh, the path. I didn't know what you meant. You mean the teaching of the Eightfold Path, is that not a teaching? Yes. That's what they say. The teaching of the Eightfold Path, right? So what's the question? You said there is no teaching. I guess the answer is yes, that is a teaching, and so therefore there is a teaching. However, if you make that teaching something separate from yourself, then we've got a problem here in the Zen department. Someone gave me this picture. It says casting shadows. Okay? Now, if you have a practice that's separate from yourself, then you've got a problem.

[87:17]

And the practice is cast a shadow. This is Janet drew this picture. She drew this picture. Jeanette drew this picture. This applies to your thing. The teaching of the path casts a shadow on you. This teaching of the path has to be exactly you, not something separate from you. Then it's okay, I guess, to have teaching, but then there's nothing, there's no teaching out there anymore, it's just you. You being exactly you, without any manipulation, is the path. So he was just telling us about how he's feeling over there, that he felt kind of confused and like he felt something was wrong and didn't know what's going on, okay?

[88:29]

And he said he felt something was right, too. And what came to my mind was that the situation he described is kind of a human situation, a normal, ordinary thing of feeling something's wrong, and then maybe I'm going to get in trouble for it, and I don't really know for sure if it's wrong, but maybe it is, and I'm kind of confused. Okay? Okay? And then maybe there's something else besides this, like Buddhism or freedom or happiness, something else over there. Maybe you might think, which is also part of your confusion. Okay? How can you be confirmed? How can you being like you are right now be confirmed? How can that be like not separate from Buddha? How can you be this way without trying to seek to be better, to improve yourself? Well, you have to feel confirmed. You have to feel like it's okay to be that way. Right. So then you'd like Buddha to come along, and Buddha would come along, and Buddha does come along, and so Dharma does come along, and Sangha does come along, and they say, Jeremy, it's okay to be like that.

[89:31]

You're fine. You feel great, right? But then this confirmation you're getting from something other than yourself becomes this veil over what you really are. And you're not really like they're with you. whatever it's like to be Jeremy or what it's like to be Erwan or whatever it's like to be Mayan. You're not there with that. Partly because you got confirmed because you read in the scripture. Look, right here it says in the scripture you can be like Jeremy. Fantastic. I feel great. Or some actual Buddha can say you're fine. And they do say that to you. If you want they'll say it sometimes. But then that confirmation seems to be the confirmation of you. But actually, what is confirmed and the confirming are the same thing. There's not something outside. What is confirmed and the confirming are the same thing.

[90:33]

I'm confused about why there doesn't need to be confirmation. There doesn't need to be confirmation. And that's part of what he said. But without confirmation, people tend to be uneasy. They feel like it's not okay to be the way they are. They think either they think something's wrong with them or they think somebody else thinks something's wrong and they feel like something's wrong. He said he felt like something was wrong. People feel anxious. They feel unworthy. No, he said he felt like something was right. I felt like something was wrong, and that was right. Yeah, he felt like something was wrong, but yet somehow it was right. Yeah. He was just a little bit surprised. Yeah. Yeah. So we... Not surprised. Not surprised, okay. He looked surprised. He looked surprised. But maybe you weren't. Anyway, having a self, we're not sure it's okay. We're not sure it's okay, and actually... It's not.

[91:39]

I mean, you know, it's not. And that's part of having a self, is that it's not okay to have a self. But for that to be confirmed and that to really be okay, it's the thing that is that way plus feeling like it's not okay, that thing gets confirmed. And it is okay and you can be at peace with being a person, you can be a living being that has a self, you can be at peace with that. But If the confirmation comes from outside, if the peace comes from outside, you're not really at peace. You're still split. And then there's some harassment or doubt. Yes? Where does the confirmation come from? From the inside or outside? The confirming and what is confirmed are the same. But the confirming doesn't come from inside.

[92:44]

What is confirmed is the same as the confirming. It's different from saying that from inside you confirm yourself. Whatever is confirmed, that is the confirming. Is that the same thing as saying that at that point there are no drugs to be smoked? Yeah. That's right, there's no dregs to be slurped. There's no Buddhas to be slurped, there's no Dharmas to be slurped, there's no Sanghas to be slurped. And we use devotion to Buddha, Dharma and Sangha as a way to get to the point of not dragging any, slurping any dregs. And just dealing with this. Without not dealing with, I used to have a better self to deal with, or Or, you know, I heard from Buddha that I'm okay. Just keep sucking on that you're okay thing.

[93:45]

Buddha said to me yesterday I was okay. Or, you know, maybe tomorrow Buddha will, you know, I heard tomorrow Buddha will say I'm okay. The way I am right now is not okay. But the okaying of it is in fact exactly being the way I am right now. That is the okaying of it. That is the peace of now, is being the way you are now. That is the peace.

[94:18]

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