I'm just a weak old man, but somehow my voice gets supported sometimes to have volume. Where's Gina? She's still. Ah, I noticed she wasn't here. Did she come with you? No, okay. I have a public service announcement which I will make at the time of work meeting. Thank you for helping me remember. It concerns a follow-up on discussion of traditional funeral practices.

[01:08]

So I'll tell you more about it at work meeting time. Now it's June, and this year we've been emphasizing building sanctuaries. And we've been emphasizing the opportunity to build a sanctuary moment by moment, step by step, wherever we are. The Buddha has sent the message that this place is good for building a sanctuary. And also, I would add, this time. And while building sanctuary, we then might wonder, what do we want to use the sanctuary for, this place?

[02:27]

And for me, I would like to realize the Buddha mind in the sanctuary. I would like to realize the Buddha body in the sanctuary. Now this Buddha mind doesn't abide in anything. It's a mind of no abode. So this practice place is called no abode. It's a sanctuary for the Buddha mind, which doesn't abide. In the sanctuary, or in anything. Also this year I've been saying over and over that this Buddha mind is an intimate transmission.

[03:39]

It's a mind which is a transmission process. It's a face-to-face transmission. It's a mind which is a conversation, face-to-face. It's a mind which has a great activity of transmission as its nature. Thank you. So, there is the appearance of this person here, and a person here, and a person here.

[05:21]

I see the appearances of persons, or I should say, I don't know, I should say, I will say, that there is a state of cognition, which I call, and which I call, and which you could call consciousness. And in this cognitive process, there is a sense that somebody is here. So, there is a cognition here now, which I call consciousness, and I'm in this cognition. And you are appearing in it too. And I say to you, in this, I'm saying, or I'm hearing myself say, or I'm hearing the words being said, in consciousness, where I am, I hear the words that I am a conversation. I am a conversation.

[06:28]

I'm saying that, and I also wouldn't say that you, all of you, are also a conversation. That this is our nature, is that we are all conversations. I am a self, and I am others. I'm both a self and others. And I, who am a self, and I who am others, say to you that you are a self and you are others.

[07:39]

And you and I are conversations between self and others. We are a conversation between the self part of ourself and the other part of ourself. And in the fullness of that conversation, we have what is called the transmission of the Buddha mind. And in the conversation which I am, there is a conversation between me, the finite me, and the finite you.

[08:45]

And there is a conversation between the finite me and the infinite other. And in this way, I have a finite life, I am a finite life, and I am an infinite life. And everything that has been said so far, I now add one more statement about everything that has been said. Everything that has been said has been offered as a conversation piece. I could also say, everything that has been offered has been conversation pieces. Everything I am offering to you is something for you to talk to me about.

[09:51]

Everything I say has no abode. And then one more thing I would say early on in this conversation is that I don't know if this is early on in the conversation. I don't know how long this conversation has been going on. I don't really think it started like this morning. I don't think it started yesterday. But you can say it starts anytime you want, and that's another conversation piece. And you can also say that this conversation is infinite. It has no beginning and it will never end. And before I talk about this thing called sitting, I just also want to mention that I am aware that what I am saying could be considered an opiate of the masses.

[11:11]

Or it could be construed as me speaking of everlasting life. And I am offering you the suggestion of everlasting life to assuage your fear of a limited life. I am aware that that criticism could be looming. But I just want to say that I am not so much talking about everlasting life. Catherine Guta, can you hear me still? Ted Brown? Okay. Matthew, okay? Aaron? Jack? Okay. So, I am more saying that our life right now is infinite. And it's also impermanent. Impermanent and infinite.

[12:15]

And if anybody here is afraid that their finite consciousness is going to end, I would say a big part of the conversation is to use the fear as a conversation piece. To bring all your fear out in front so we can talk about it. And the conversation that we are talking about is an intimate, genuine, fully responsible conversation. So, I am suggesting I am a conversation and I am a genuine, wholehearted conversation. I am not a half-hearted conversation. And anything I feel, like fear, is part of the conversation.

[13:21]

And I want to bring it all out in front so we can take care of it. And it can be included in the Buddha mind seal. And now I would like to... I was speaking this way in Berkeley on Tuesday night, last. The conversation was going on then too. And at the end of the class, somebody named John came up and said to me, How does this relate to sitting? And I said, Yeah, bring that up in the next class. But before the class I wanted to bring it up with you and suggest to you that the Buddha mind is an intimate conversation

[14:31]

and the Buddha mind is our sitting practice. Our sitting meditation is the Buddha mind. Have you heard that before? Okay, now, the Buddha mind is our sitting practice. I know you have heard that before. So we got our sitting practice called Zazen. It's the Buddha mind seal. The Buddha mind seal is a seal of the different parts. It's the way the different people in the conversation are sealed in the conversation, are completed. The Buddha mind seals all beings into this conversation, into this transmission. The Buddha mind seal is our sitting practice. So our conversation, which is our self,

[15:32]

which is our self and others, that conversation is our sitting practice. Our sitting is a conversation. And the conversation is sitting, still and upright. So the Buddhas, which are an intimate conversation, manifest as a sitting upright body. And that sitting upright body manifests as a conversation. It's just that, as we say, when one side is illuminated, the other one is in the dark. So, sometimes the sitting is in the foreground. Hey, we got sitting. Is it wholehearted?

[16:34]

No. Well, let's work on that. Sometimes the sitting is in the foreground and we can see it, and the face-to-face transmission is in the background. Sometimes the face-to-face transmission is in the foreground, this wholehearted, fully responsible conversation is like alive, and it's like right there in the foreground. We can enjoy it. Where's the sitting? It's in the background. You can't have this wholehearted conversation without it being wholehearted sitting. Sitting where? Sitting in you being you. You have to be there with everything that you are, which is yourself and others. You have to be with that completely and not move away

[17:38]

in order for that conversation to happen. But when the conversation is happening, the sitting is in the background. And it's being realized in the wholeheartedness of the conversation. Vice versa, when the sitting is wholehearted, the conversation is in the background. So then people think, maybe they might think I'm not having a conversation, but if you wholeheartedly sit with that thought, I'm not having a conversation, you realize the conversation you think you're not having, or that thought thinks it's not happening. So this is my nature I'm telling you about. This is your nature.

[18:40]

This is the nature I'm suggesting to you. And right now, here we are together, meeting face to face. So I say to you, thank you for coming to the meeting. And we also have this expression from ancestors, from the first time you meet a master, just wholeheartedly sit. There are some other words between the two, but I'm just... From the first time you meet a master, just wholeheartedly sit. Now when you hear that, you might think, when you first wholeheartedly meet a master, it's when the first time you meet a master, I'm adding in. I think that means, from the first time you fully responsible meeting with the teacher,

[19:42]

just wholeheartedly sit. When you hear that sentence, you might think, meet the teacher, then sit. But now I'm emphasizing, from the first time you meet a master, you are wholeheartedly sitting. Meeting the master, meeting the teacher, is the foreground, and the background is wholeheartedly sitting. When you meet the other, that's wholeheartedly sitting, and that drops off body and mind. And if you think that you can wholeheartedly sit without meeting the master, I would say, you're missing, you're missing what wholehearted sitting is.

[20:44]

Wholehearted sitting is not something that I do by myself, because wholehearted sitting is my nature, not half my nature, or a part of my nature, sitting. Wholeheartedly sitting means the self and the other sitting together. So meeting the teacher is wholeheartedly sitting. And so this morning, you all together, really, were sitting wholeheartedly. That's reality. You were wholeheartedly sitting and you were guiding each other to wholeheartedly sitting. Which means you were meeting the master. That's what we were really doing. And I was in another room,

[21:48]

while you were sitting here, I was meeting people, right? But the wholeheartedly sitting was there too. But we do need, we need both. We need to do the face-to-face meeting in order to realize the sitting. You cannot do it without a meeting with the Buddha. And you can't meet the Buddha without the wholehearted sitting. The Zen phrase, two characters, Zen phrase for face-to-face transmission

[22:49]

is menju, which means men is face and ju means giving. There's another character for that pronounced ju, which is very similar, which means receiving. But the menju is face-giving. It's translated as face-to-face transmission. But it's kind of interesting that the actual term that the ancestor Dogen uses is face-giving. So it's like you and I, or maybe I'll just say for me, I have the opportunity

[23:51]

to give my face. I have a face and I do give it. But if I don't practice giving my face, I might not understand that all day long, I'm giving my face. Maybe I won't meet anybody that's interested in my offer, but I'm still going to give it. I'm going to. And I would also like to be aware of that and say, yes, I am giving this face, which I'm giving all the time anyway. And there's a book by C.S. Lewis, which is called Until We Have Faces. And that title is referring to the teaching,

[24:54]

I guess by him, that until we have faces, which of course we have, but until we're willing to accept that we have faces and give them, then the other face has trouble giving itself to us. Not really. But we don't see the other face being given to us if we hold back our own face. So the process of realizing Buddha Mind starts with the act of generosity. And in particular, it starts with you giving your face to a conversation, which in reality, you do. But if you don't act it out, you might not understand what I'm talking about. And it is sometimes hard to give our face, because we have some vanity

[25:57]

about our face. Like some people stay home and don't go to high school because they have pimples. And they don't want to give their pimply face to the other kids at school. Some other people don't want to go out on the street without makeup on. So we have some issues, some challenge in giving our face. To what? To the conversation. With who? With everybody other than us. And if we give our face, we'll realize that the others are giving their face to us. And again, in the book, it's like, until we have faces,

[26:58]

we cannot realize the Divine is coming to meet us. But the Divine can't meet us before we're able to sit and have our face. Which we're... Yeah. We're struggling to do it because our face has all this stuff going on with it. Fear and embarrassment. Fear that someone will see us and might not approve of us. Yeah. So our job is to sit upright

[28:21]

and give our face to this meeting. And again, in reality, that's what we're doing. But if we don't join that, it's like, well, I'm not doing that, or I don't want to do that, or that's just too much. Or I'm willing to do it with some people, but not with this person. Or I'm willing to do it when my face looks better, but not this one. Or I'm willing to do it with some people who I'm not afraid of what they'll think if they see me. So I was just recently in New York and a young man spoke to the group and he said, you know, now I'm talking in this group

[29:22]

and I'm, even though I know everybody in the room is my friend, I'm terrified. I'm terrified. But he said that, so he got his fear out in front of him so we can talk about it. And in the talking about it, we realize Buddha mind, which is, we become free of our fears and we realize peace through face-to-face meeting. And, we also open to our infinite life.

[30:23]

And then we continue the conversation with our infinite life. Is there anything you want to tell me? Yes? You mentioned that our nature, correct me because I forget, that our nature is a conversation. Is that correct? Or, our nature is conversation? I disagree and my disagreement comes because I don't know what my nature or nature is.

[31:44]

And because I don't know, I go in a conversation. Okay, and I agree with you. So I would say, if I don't know my nature, then I don't know that my nature is a conversation. But maybe, I mean, it's good news to me, that if I don't know that my nature is conversation, that I would be guided to conversation in order to realize that that's so. So, if I don't know what I am, then I wouldn't know that I was a conversation. So, if I don't know that I'm a conversation, I don't know what I am.

[32:46]

If I don't know what I am, I don't know I'm a conversation. However, in your case, the good news is that not knowing that you're a conversation, you started to have a conversation, which will guide you to realizing what you are. So, by conversation... I think it guides me to realize what I'm not. And I constantly realize what I'm not versus what I am. Yeah, well, it will also lead you to realize what you're not. That's what a conversation is, is that you realize what you're not. In other words, you are what you are, but you haven't yet realized what you're not. You're sort of into what you are, rather than what you are not. And then my question is, then why do I keep running into, why do I keep seeing what I'm not seeing? Why do I want, or why is this desire, or why is this thing of me constantly seeing what I'm not,

[33:56]

and stop that? Why there's no end to this, what I'm not? I want the end. That's the question. You want the end to what you're not? I want the end to the conversation. I want the end of conversation. Yeah. So, thank you very much for offering that conversation piece, that you want the end of conversation. Yeah. And so you have just offered an invitation to a conversation by saying you want to end the conversation. Do you see some irony there? What's irony? It's kind of saying something that's the opposite of what you want. It's that you want a conversation, because that's what you are, and you're saying you want to stop the conversation.

[34:58]

Like I mentioned, actually, I was in Minnesota, I went to New York and then Minnesota, and I mentioned, when I was in Minnesota, that when I went to the university, certain young women came up to me and said, I don't want to talk to you. And I found that very interesting. Wait a minute. That's not what I'm saying. It's not that I don't want to talk to you. By the way, that wasn't what they were saying to me either. They were saying, I don't want to talk to you. That was their way of getting me to talk to them. And one of them actually was in the audience at that time, and she came up to me and she said, afterwards she said, I was quite successful, wasn't I? I mean, it's somewhat interesting if a person comes up to me and says,

[36:01]

I want to talk to you. But it was a little more interesting when someone would go out of their way, also sensing that I wanted to talk to her, go out of her way to walk up to me and say, I don't want to talk to you. No. What I'm saying is... Here she is doing it. She knows this is more interesting than you. I'm serious. This is serious. Yeah, this is serious. This is serious. I am here for the silence of the words. I am here for the silence of the conversation. Even if there is a conversation, but the conversation is silence. I am here to hear. Yeah, but you're not going to hear it unless you start having even a more wholehearted conversation.

[37:05]

Because the silence is the background of the conversation. The silence and the stillness is the background of the actual conversation, which you are. The background of you, which you want to realize. Can I just say the background? The background of you, when you're talking to me, is silence and stillness. That's the background. But when you're talking to me and when you're saying, I want to hear the silence. I want the silence. Give me the silence. The background of that is what you want, in this particular case. If you say, I want noise, I say, you're a success. You got it. If you're yelling, I want noise, you've got noise. But if you say, I want silence, you've got it too, but it's in the background. And so you can't see it when you're begging for it

[38:08]

or campaigning for it. You can't see it explicitly, but you know it. You wouldn't be able to ask for silence if it weren't surrounding you all the time. You already have it. It's just that when you're talking, you can't... It's implicit, it's tacit. You know the silence silently when you're talking. But when you're silent, you know the talking silently. So if you want silence, and you can add to the list stillness, if you want it, then you have to move wholeheartedly and speak wholeheartedly and listen to other people's speech and you are, I think, doing a nice job of speaking in the service of realizing silence.

[39:10]

And you will not be able to realize silence without a conversation. So some people sit in Zendos where everybody is silent, but actually everybody is having conversations, which you can't hear, and you're having a conversation, which you can hear, so you're sitting there in silence, thinking that you're not having a conversation and actually knowing that you are. Like people say, sitting is not a conversation. Well, most people are like jabbering away when they're sitting, but then there's this moment where they don't hear any jabber. Okay? That can happen. The silence becomes the foreground and the talk, the conversation, is in the background. I think you were, as you had a long time ago,

[40:12]

and then I see Katie and somebody back there. Charlie? Well, I guess, first I just want to say the fun thing about having a question around here is that you raise your hand and then you wait patiently for your turn to ask the question, and you listen to what's being said. It's pretty much every time your question gets answered before you get a chance to ask it. Could you hear him, Catherine? Ted, could you hear him? Great. So thank you, Homa, for your question. How's the silence, Chad? I can't see you right now. But as you were speaking this morning, a lot of the things you were saying reminded me of what you've said using the word relationship

[41:13]

rather than the word conversation. And so I was thinking about the relationship of relationship and conversation, because I've heard that what we all really are is relationship. Yeah. And so I'm guessing, or my question is, is conversation maybe the conscious manifestation of our relationship? And it's putting words to it. Or maybe there can be verbal conversation, silent conversation. What do you think about the difference there? I would say, you know, this is kind of like conservative, what I'm saying now, from my perspective. For me, who is not very conservative, this is a conservative statement.

[42:15]

The conversation that occurs in the cognitive field of consciousness is language. But we also have non-linguistic conversations. Like the conversation between my body and the unconscious cognitive process is not linguistic. But it's a big conversation. And when the conscious conversation gets turned off, which it can, the other conversation goes on and may reignite the consciousness after it gets turned off for a while. So there's conversation in consciousness with language, and there's conversation between my conversation field, my cognitive language conversation field. There's a conversation between that and yours. And there's a conversation between this conversation field,

[43:19]

where there's language, and your body, and your unconscious process. And similarly between your cognitive process, conscious cognitive process, and my body. Those are conversations too, but they're not in language. However, the language realm is really important, because that's where we somehow have translated the Buddha mind into conscious instructions about how to practice with our fear and so on. Which if we don't practice with these phenomena in consciousness, we have trouble realizing all the other conversations, which are going on, but we don't realize them, because we aren't taking care of the conversation in language. And again, I've mentioned before,

[44:24]

three types of mind, conscious mind, which is linguistic, unconscious mind, which is not linguistic, and there's not a self, there's an I'm not there, and then what we call Buddha mind, or the conversation. The conversation is Buddha mind, and the Buddha mind is the way the other minds, my conscious mind is conversing with my unconscious, my conscious mind is conversing with your unconscious and your conscious, your conscious is conversing with my conscious and my unconscious, that whole conversation is the Buddha mind, which is none other than all these conversations between all the living beings and all the different parts of their unconscious process and their bodies,

[45:25]

which are shared and unshared and all that stuff. That whole conversation is going on, but if we don't practice it consciously, like we're doing right now, in consciousness we are practicing conversation. If we don't do it here, we won't realize that it's going on here, which it is, and it is going on whether we practice it or not, but if we practice it, we'll realize it. And so you can ask that question at home, I can say I want the conversation to stop, all that going on in consciousness, which everybody here can enjoy, but it also simultaneously is transforming our unconscious processes and our bodies. My speech is transforming my unconscious process and my body, but my speech is also transforming your consciousness and your unconscious process and your body. That's the conversation,

[46:26]

which is the reality of our life. Excuse me, one more thing. That's a conversation piece about the reality of our life. I feel like I often become aware that a conversation is taking place after I wasn't there for it wholeheartedly, that when I missed it, there's often a feeling that is associated with that. Sometimes it's frustration with myself, or sorrow, or any number of feelings. Or it could even be, I'm glad I missed that one. It happened, but I'm glad I wasn't there. And that moment of recognition is itself a conversation,

[47:33]

and a very useful one. And I guess, I was trying to think about, or trying to feel in my body even, what would it be like to always be showing up for the conversation wholeheartedly, which I realized was somehow a goal I was carrying around that I was never 100% succeeding at. Would it be rude if I said something at this point? You said, what would it be like? What popped in my mind is, Buddhas don't necessarily know that they're Buddhas when they are. So what it would be like is called Buddha. But Buddhas, when Buddhas are like Buddhas, they don't necessarily think, oh, it's like this. Maybe they could know, but really even Buddhas do not actually consciously know what it's like to be a Buddha.

[48:34]

But what you're talking about is, we call that, that's the Buddha mind, that's the conversation. And we can realize it, but we may not be able to know it because that which can be met with recognition is not the realization itself. But the conscious mind is kind of like, I wonder what Buddha is like. Oh, that's really sweet. And you can go ahead and wonder, and Buddha is totally like, I'm with you wondering what it would be like to be Buddha. I used to be like that too. Matter of fact, I am like that right now because I'm just like you. So go right ahead and wonder what it's like to be Buddha. What's it like to be the universe in a wholehearted conversation? I wonder what that's like. I'm sorry I interrupted you. Were you done? I mean, I think that answered my question. Tish and then Thai.

[49:37]

Tish and Thai. What's the difference between a conversation between self and other? Union. The difference between a conversation and union. I don't know. I don't know. Yes. In reference to what the lady said earlier, have you heard the saying, we are all one? Oh, look. There it is. So, in a way, that's like the waves in the ocean, in the ocean, they're all one. Yet a drop of rain is separated from the ocean. Once it connects with the ocean,

[50:38]

blends with it, it's one with the ocean. But when it's outside of the ocean and the clouds coming down, it's separated. So it doesn't matter that the drop does not know that it's one. Does that say something to you? Yes, I hear it. But it does, when I drop, that's where I am. When I'm the raindrop, I'm still the raindrop. If you say so. But it is what it is. That's okay. I cannot dwell on what I'm not. You're my sister too. And I just want to say again

[51:43]

that everything I've said this morning is conversation pieces, so if I say, and that's reality, I don't really mean that. I mean, that statement is something to talk to you about. Okay? So I may talk like that sometimes. Karen, and then Simon. When you said that silence is the background to conversation, it made me think about music and how music is sound and silence. In listening to music, it's really joyful to hear both of those things. And I'm wondering if listening to conversation with that same music, that seems like it might be a good idea. It's a really good idea. Like, is it Beethoven's fourth piano concerto where the music's going along and then there's this silence and then there's like

[52:44]

One touch on the key. One note. Do you know that one? It's the fourth or the fifth piano concerto. And it's just like the silence all around this before, and then after. And then when we have a conversation, to think about that as making music too, where there's an offer and there's a harmonious music. When you said the first time you meet a master, what are you going to indicate by saying a master? I guess I would say

[53:51]

the other. And not just the other like my idea of you. But the way you're far beyond my idea of you. When I meet the other ness of Simon, which is infinite. And I like open to that. And again, I won't be able to open to that unless I'm doing my homework of being me. So, in order to meet you, I have to actually be wholeheartedly sitting. But maybe I don't know how to wholeheartedly sit except by meeting you fully. And then when I meet you fully, I am wholeheartedly sitting. Because I'm open to I'm open to how you appear. And I'm open to that that's just a mental construct, that's just a conscious construction.

[54:56]

And I'm open to how you actually are me. Which when I first look at you, you look like, you know, you got a little label on you, not Reb. So I've got to deal with that. And if I wholeheartedly deal with that, I'm open to, oh, my God, I see Reb in the otherness of not Reb. In the Reb part of the not Reb, which you show me every time I meet you, if I'm there for it. And if I'm there for it, and we have that kind of meeting, well, I'm just wholeheartedly sat. But I couldn't do it without you. You and also not you, which is me. And is not wholeheartedly sitting helpful? It's a conversation piece. So the professional Zen teacher

[55:57]

gets all these people coming and saying, I'm not going to wholeheartedly sit. Or I'm not wholeheartedly sitting. Or I don't want to talk to you. Many people come in the room and say, I don't want to be here. Which is totally like where it's at, is to say that when they feel like that. So everything is a conversation piece. And you could say, well, conversation pieces are helpful. But again, that's a conversation piece. You could say conversation pieces are not helpful. Fine, we can work with that. And we do, and we will. But if we don't enact that we do, we will, then we miss that we do and we will. And then we are stressed and frightened. But then if we're frightened, then the fear becomes a conversation piece. And meeting that wholeheartedly

[57:01]

is wholehearted sitting. And that is dropping off body and mind. If we can have a wholehearted conversation, which might be me just listening to you. You talk, I listen. You're quiet, I listen. You talk, I listen. You're quiet, I listen. I don't have to say a word to have a conversation with you. But we do need to have a conversation for me to realize that we are a conversation. I'm a conversation. You're a conversation. We're a conversation. As the Buddha says in early teachings, there's no here or there or in between. And that's the end of suffering. But the Buddha said that, and he was listening. And he woke up to what the Buddha was indicating with those words. The Buddha's teaching is records of conversations.

[58:07]

Which means records of Buddha mind. Because the Buddha mind is the Buddha teaching. And the Buddha's teaching is what we call wholeheartedly sitting. And the Buddha's teaching is dropping off body and mind of self and other. And not wholeheartedly sitting. And not wholeheartedly sitting is a conversation with wholeheartedly sitting. There's no not wholeheartedly sitting without wholeheartedly sitting. So, almost only, but I don't know, almost only Zen students don't do wholeheartedly sitting. Do you know what I mean? Well, I'm probably not going to do it, but we could go down the safe way

[59:10]

and we could ask the people in the safe way if they know what not wholeheartedly sitting is. And they would probably call security. Because they would be scared, you know. They would want some security. But Zen students talk about not wholeheartedly sitting quite a bit, right? They're kind of into it. You know, like, those people are not wholeheartedly sitting. Or I'm not wholeheartedly sitting. It's a big issue for us who are totally dedicated to wholeheartedly sitting, right? Our dedication to wholeheartedly sitting would not be possible without not wholeheartedly sitting. So whenever there is not wholeheartedly sitting, guess what's in the background. And whenever there is wholeheartedly sitting, guess what's in the background. You can't have one without the other. And if we have a conversation about this,

[60:14]

we'll realize that. In other words, we'll realize what wholeheartedly sitting is, is that it doesn't abide in wholeheartedly sitting. And it doesn't abide in not wholeheartedly sitting. That's our, you know, that's our main line teaching. What are you doing when you're sitting? What kind of thinking is that? Not thinking. How do you practice not thinking? Non-thinking. In our sitting, thinking is not thinking. And not thinking is thinking. In our sitting, wholeheartedly sitting is not wholeheartedly sitting. And not wholeheartedly sitting is wholeheartedly sitting. How do you practice that way? By being wholeheartedly about thinking when it's happening, and being wholeheartedly about not thinking when not thinking is happening. Being wholeheartedly about fear when fear is happening, you realize it's not fear. Being half-heartedly about fear,

[61:14]

you're stuck in it. And how do you be whole-hearted about your fear? You can't do it by yourself. You got to talk to somebody about it. Like you go, I'm afraid, and somebody's listening. I'm afraid, and somebody's listening. I'm afraid, and somebody hears you calling for them, and they respond. That conversation, you realize that your fear is not fear. But we have to talk about it, otherwise we might think that fear actually was just plain old fear, rather than also equally not fear. We have to talk, we have to meet, and we are doing it, so let's do it. Right? Yeah, we're doing it. Yes? I heard you say something I've never heard you say, which was...

[62:21]

Just in the nick of time. Yeah, really. So, in your interchange, in your conversation with Simon, you said something about the reb part of not reb, when you were talking about other, and giving and receiving. The reb part of not reb. Yeah, I don't know if I said that, but I was talking about the Simon, but did I say reb? Well, you were talking... Okay, the reb part of not reb, yeah? So, in the other... So the reb part of not reb is... In the other, that was what generated that. The reb part of not reb... Not reb being other. Yeah. The reb part of other... Yeah. So, the reb part of others is me. I'm the reb part of others, and others are the

[63:27]

not reb part of reb. It just seems like that stops the kind of falling away of reb in the experience of other. If you solidify it, if you kind of say, this is the part, that's the part that struck me. The reb part solidifies reb? Yeah. And so, because reb can be solidified, which it's not, it needs to be in a conversation with not reb. And if there's belief in the solidity of reb, that might be in accord with resisting the conversation with not reb. And also there could be solidifying not reb. And that's even more dangerous. And when you solidify not reb, you might really be

[64:31]

unwilling to have a conversation about it. So, whatever it is in consciousness, there is a risk of solidifying it, of saying it's not a conversation. But then you say, and that's the reb part? That reb part, if it's offered as a conversation piece, then you can say, I think that looks like that either is solidified or could be. And as the conversation opens out, we become free of that tendency, without getting rid of the tendency. We don't lose our solidifying powers of imagination by becoming free of them. Matter of fact, we can use them even better and do magic tricks for people of solidifying things right in front of them.

[65:31]

It just seems that language is just messing up the simultaneity of reb and not reb. It does seem like that. It does seem like that. It doesn't really, because you cannot tamper with it. But it does seem like it. That's consciousness. Consciousness seems like language is a problem. Language seems like it's messing things up. It's creating divisions where they're not really there. That's what it seems like. Language is where it seems like we're strangling ourselves. Because language is occurring in the strangulation area. Consciousness is strangling. Consciousness is strangling our life. Apparently, it's not really strangling our life. It just looks like it is. It just looks

[66:33]

like it's cutting us off from the universe. And that's stressful. But there's also language in the language field where this looks like a big problem, which tells you how to relate to the language in a way that will show you that language does not strangle us. If it does, then we should just accept it and be miserable and frightened, etc. But it doesn't. It doesn't, but we have to exercise that language in such a way as to verify that it's not so much that language liberates us, and it's also not so much that language entraps us, it's just that in the process of being entrapped, language is definitely part of it. What really entraps us is losing the conversation. So it says in here, when we meet, upon meeting

[67:46]

it, when you meet the Dharma, you will renounce worldly affairs. In terms of this talk, worldly affairs are not being in conversation. Worldly affairs are like, that's solid, and that's solid. Those solidities, if then seeing, oh, now we have a chance for conversation, now we're involved in liberating activity. If we see the Dharma, hear the Dharma, meet the Dharma, we will engage in conversation. And so if the appearance of solidifying occurs, we see that as a call to conversation. And it was, and you responded by telling me your

[68:50]

concern about this apparent solidification. If we can talk about this solidification, we will realize that it's not solidification. We'll be free of solidification and we'll be free of not solidification. We'll be free of form and emptiness through conversation, which is the spiritual work, is conversation, which is the pivoting of self and other, and so on. I see lots of hands. Yeah? Yes? [...]

[69:51]

Yes? Yeah. Yeah, right. Yes? Uh-huh. Oh, you say anger about the new stories? Uh-huh. Yeah, part of the reward of accepting, so grief is calling for you to listen to it. And part of the reward of listening to the call of grief is you get new stories. So, your body wants new stories, your mind wants new stories. And sometimes when certain

[71:12]

things change, we go, no, this story is not going to change, I'm not going to accept it. But the call of your life is, new stories please, I don't want to have new stories. New stories please, no. And the grief comes. Well, how about just feeling this grief, and you're open to the grief and then you accidentally let go of what was asking you to let go of it, and you're open to the new stories. So now you have new stories, and then the conversation goes on, you get angry at the new stories. Part of the reason why you can get angry at the new stories is that you realize you let go of the old ones, which you didn't want to do. But your life, huh? Your life wants you to, but somebody said, no, we're going to hold on to this story, and then the grief came, and then you're open to the grief, and you let go of what you didn't want to let go of, and then you let your life come. So here comes your life, and it looks like a new story. And you realize, oh, it's a new

[72:15]

story, but that makes me realize that I let go of what I wasn't intending to let go of. So you get angry at the new story. And then you can go back and try to hold on to the old story again, and grief says, no, no, come on, listen to this. So you listen to the grief, and you let go again, and the new story comes again. Or even another one. So this is what grieving does, it helps you open to your new life and not hold on to your old life, which happens to be bye-bye. So we should really have a welcoming, generous meeting with grief, and then be careful of grief, and then be patient with grief, and then we'll be able to have our life, which we do want, but we also want our new life, and we also want to hold on to our old one sometimes, especially if our old one was that we were a patient

[73:16]

person and a kind person. Let's hold on to that. And then it goes away, and go, oh, no, no, no, I'm a patient kind person, I'm not going to let go. And your life's saying, come on, let's move on, come on. So grief comes and says, okay, she's not going to let go, but, hello, hello, please, we're still sad, oh. But she's a nice lady, so she says, okay, I'll listen to the grief, and then accidentally you open to letting, you accidentally let go of your past, and then your life comes in and you go, whoa. Sometimes you're like, oh, I get it, I got it. And sometimes you don't get angry, that it shows you that you let go of what you should have let go. But sometimes you can't quite accept how wonderful

[74:18]

this is, this life, and you feel loyal to what's gone, right? Which is like being a nice person, a kind person, a generous person, it's gone. Who had their hand raised? I did. I mean, you did, but now how about you? Here. How about you? Again. Well, it moved on since my question, but still. What comes to my mind is, would you say that dependent co-arising is another word for the conversation? It's a conversation piece for the conversation. So we have these words about dependent co-arising to help us converse about dependent co-arising. Dependent co-arising is a word, it's a concept,

[75:18]

which is trying to help us understand dependent co-arising, which is not just a concept, it's also dependent co-arising. But basically dependent co-arising... Dependent co-arising is something similar to the non-concept conversation? Or the conversation takes place... Dependent co-arising includes a non-conceptual conversation. It is, I would say, a non-conceptual conversation which allows itself to be made conceptual. So the Buddha actually gave us the story about twelvefold chain of causation, which is a conceptual picture about an inconceivable non-conceptual process. But the non-conceptual process does not forbid being made into concepts, because that's how we're going to have a conversation with the concepts and realize that dependent

[76:27]

co-arising is a conversation. It's a conversation, and if we talk about it wholeheartedly, we'll realize that. That's what it is. Is it anything more than a conversation? No, it's nothing more than a conversation, neither is Buddha. Buddha is just a conversation among all beings, which is simultaneously the liberation of all beings. It's when we stop the conversation that we sink into some form of being. And then our life stresses us, says, help, help, help, somebody's not listening to me. And then we start listening and that's the conversation starts again. Yes? Q. Earlier you said if we lose the conversation, that's when we fall into...

[77:29]

Well, I should say, if we turn away from it, if we give up on it. Q. I was going to ask, for example, losing, turning away, just thinking that we're actually not in a conversation, that the conversation has ended. Yes, thank you. The conversation does not end. The worldly activity is to think that we could end the conversation, like I could think, okay, I've had enough. Q. End of conversation. End of conversation. I've talked to you long enough. By now you should have understood that I'm right. And if you don't, that's it, we're done. But I don't want to do that. I don't want to end my conversation with you, even if we both say, hey, this is really good. We finally agree perfectly. Q. Either way, ending it because we can't get along, or ending it because we think we resolved it. Yes. It doesn't end, but we can think so. Okay, so that's it, we're done.

[78:32]

So as you may have heard me say, if you think that there's no point in talking anymore because you're never going to get it, or if you think there's no point in talking anymore because you got it, you should go to Doksan. And of course, if you don't think you've got it, and also you think you might not get it, you should go to Doksan too. But especially if you think, there's no point in continuing this conversation. Either he's hopeless or I'm hopeless. I'll never understand this teaching. I'll never be able to do the practice. I quit, and I don't want to talk about it. You should definitely go quickly. Or if you think, finally I understand, and I don't need to practice anymore, or talk to my teacher, you should go quickly. Q. Was it Linji who didn't want to go see Huangbo because he thought there was no conversation?

[79:35]

First of all, he thought there was no necessity of conversation because he thought he understood already. And he did understand really well. He was an excellent student of the Dharma. But Mo Zhao thought, well, yeah, you're great, but you should still go talk to him. And then they went, and he didn't think it was a conversation. So he said, okay, if it's not a conversation, I don't want a conversation. And so this was one of the great conversations in our history. But it's partly that. The story starts with him, it's not really necessary for me to go. And then also, what is it? We have, what is it, Fa Yen and Director Tse. Director Tse, Fa Yen said, you never come to talk to me. I said, didn't you know? I already understand. And so on. So if you think you already understand, go see a teacher fast. If you think you never

[80:41]

will, go see a teacher fast. If you think you might someday, you can wait a while. Because you're actually in a pretty good place if you think you might. And if you think you never will, but you don't really believe it, you can wait a little while. But if you think you never will and you believe it, it's an emergency case. Totally. The conversation is totally not a conversation. Which, of course, is another conversation. Yes? Other than dependent co-arising, in science of language or psychology of language, is there a term or a name for language that strangulates? Yeah, language. Language can appear to strangulate. It doesn't really, but it looks like that.

[81:48]

It says, it says strangulation and it appears in consciousness, the word strangled. And you know the word anxiety has a root to be strangled or choked. So there appears to be choking of our life and sometimes it's really like around our own neck and that's language. Now, what about the body? Well, the body is also a problem, maybe feeling strangled, but it doesn't have words for it. And therefore it's not stuck in some limited version of what strangulation is. But in consciousness it's like, this is strangulation and underneath is written subliminally, this is true. As a matter of fact, this is an image of a physical situation and it's actually mental but it really looks physical. So the language is basically deceptive and limiting and it's how we get entrapped.

[82:50]

Can it be said that language is also balance and imbalance? Language is imbalance and by using the imbalance you realize balance. So we have to work with language. If we don't, we won't realize the face-to-face conversation, which is what Buddhas are. And if we don't work with conversation, if I'm not having any conversations with you guys anymore and if I go with that, then I'm not going to realize that conversation is not conversation. I have to use conversation to realize not. I have to fully engage with fear to realize fear is not fear. That's not saying there is no fear, it's saying fear is not fear. Fear is a vital call for conversation. Not fear, again, is a vital call. Like somebody

[84:00]

comes up to me and says, I'm not afraid, I don't need to talk to you anymore. Everything is calling us to engage, to respond and realize that that's what's going on. Now, after that, it has become quiet. But what's in the background? Lunch! It's always in the background of silence. May our intention equally extend to every being and place.

[85:00]

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