I wanted to talk about some things that have to do with, I guess, the making a container, or continually to meditate on the issue of a container for this process of a practice period, a process of individual person's life. And talk a little bit about that. And so one image I have of the container is that a container is something that you cook something in. And I went to look for the Buddhist I Ching in the library today. I couldn't find it. But I remember, which is okay, somebody probably checked it out.

[01:03]

I remember I read in there one time about the cauldron. The cauldron is one of the 64 hexagrams. It says, nothing surpasses the cauldron for cooking Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. And we just had a sashin, which is kind of... usually says she'd turn up the heat in the cauldron a little bit. And so when you start cooking things, sometimes things start bubbling. and bubble, bubble, bubble, and sometimes things start to bubble, bubble, bubble, and almost like the stuff in the container can bubble right out, right? And at that point, we said, we didn't say it in this particular image, but I would say now that if things are cooking, and if any of you feel like you or somebody else is going to get bubble out of the cauldron and spilled over onto the stove or whatever, it's okay to say just a second and turn the heat down a little bit.

[02:11]

Putting the top on does not usually help at that point. If the pressure cooker is already on, that's OK. But if there's not a top on, then at that point, probably the fastest thing to do is either remove the whole cauldron from the fire or turn the fire down. So that's similar to saying, if the train's going and you feel like getting left behind, just pull the thing. Stop it. So if you do feel in a class or sasheen or something, if you feel like you or somebody is going to get bubbles out of the cooking thing, it's okay to say, I think we should maybe turn the heat down a little bit. That's a kind of protection for process. Yes? Would you say that... It would be, I don't want to say ideal, but maybe a good idea to keep the cauldron contents hot and maybe at this boiling level without things going over the top to just really keep it just right at that edge?

[03:36]

Or is it better to keep it down a little lower? I think that's part of what we have to figure out. You know, when you're cooking some things, actually, you turn them up real high, right up the edge where they will bubble over, but you take them that high, and then you turn it down to a simmer, right? But they don't say bring it up to a simmer. They say bring it to a full boil and then simmer. Or sometimes they say just simmer, right? There's different instructions for different things. And we have to sort of, that's part of, That's part of what we have to work out. But when I talked about protection a while ago, I think you and Michael brought up, well, what about the intense interactions? And I think sometimes it seems appropriate to have intense interactions and to have the cooking pretty much up to the maximum. And sometimes not. Sometimes we want a little break, maybe. Sometimes we want a holiday.

[04:37]

lighten up sometimes relax i can't sometimes like sometimes i can't take right at the edge sometimes you're not alert enough to watch something that's right on the edge of boiling over you just need a break so you turn it down to a simmer so you can go you know you can go you know do something else in the house for a little while you don't have to like watch it like That's something we have to work out. Sometimes what you might say is, I don't think it's going to boil over, but I don't think I can give it the kind of attention it needs right now to keep it right on the edge. I just can't do it. So in a sense, although it's not boiling over, if I could give my total attention to the situation, then it could be at that maximum level. But right now I can't, so I'd like it a little lower. Yeah, because that's how I'm feeling right now, this is a shame. I'm calling it post-dishing trauma or syndrome or something. I feel right on that edge. And I don't want to simmer. I want to stay right there and pay attention to it. And I want to keep the flame up.

[05:42]

But I'd rather not go spilling out all over the place. Right. And also you might be able to do it, but somebody else, you might be in this, you might be down in the lower part of the cooking thing. The lower part may be, but somebody else may be up at the top ready to flip out. So they get to say, let's turn it down. Even though you're cooking down there, maybe you're on the verge and not, you're not going to bubble up, but you're going to get scorched. And then you just be happy to get really young down there, you know? get nice and the burnt part of the rice, but somebody else may get the bubbling over parts and they may say, I don't want to get thrown out of the process. I actually like the burnt part of the rice myself, but some people don't like that part. I don't like the part that gets spilled over on the sink though. Especially I don't want to be that part that gets spilled over on the sink. So is there a way that, that, uh, an individual can keep their, I don't know, if there's individual containers within this one larger container that has all of us, is there a way that one person can keep their soup boiling while some others turn theirs down?

[06:55]

Yes. There is. For example, well, before we tune to that, I'll give you some information and that may help you You know, heat up a little bit. Some ways to keep it safe are, in terms of actual human interactions, are like we said before. You can just say to somebody, how are you doing? If you think somebody is about to boil over, you can say, how are you doing? If you're talking to someone and you're talking to them intensely... there's some chance that this is hard for them. Even though you may not be angry or anything, you may be coming on intensely. So you're intense, right? And just to make sure that you can trade in one kind of intensity for another kind of intensity. You can cool off on this kind of intensity and turn on another kind of intensity called checking with the other person. which also takes attention and intelligence and a lot of things like that.

[07:59]

So maybe you're sending them messages, backs off for a second, and now you check with them. How are you feeling? How is it over there? That's one thing to do that will protect, give them a chance. And not just ask them real fast, but ask and wait for a minute. Because sometimes they won't come back right away. Sometimes they have to say, well, let me see. Some people have to go way down to get something. There's another intensity for you, maybe, if you had to ask her, of just being able to stand the, what do you call it, the suspense. Are they going to tell me that they're on the verge of leaving? That's also, that won't cool you out. That's something, too. So asking how the other person's doing. Also, when you're talking to them or when somebody else is talking to them, that's one thing to do. The other thing would be, to remember vulnerability of yourself and others.

[09:01]

And sometimes when you're asserting yourself, you don't remember your own vulnerability. And I thought of a couple examples. And I'll tell you, this is also tell you something about me, my history. It's okay? Mm-hmm. How you doing? Mm-hmm. Is that OK? I've got one question. Yeah. Leaking, spill. We talked about leaking the other day. Now I'm hearing that we're not supposed to spill. What's the difference? The difference is that when leaking gets to a certain point, you run out of the situation. That's the difference. Like, instead of, like in a relationship, for example, there's leakage, right? And they're spotting it or not spotting it. But let's say you spotted some, but it's coming on so heavy that you can't keep up with it.

[10:07]

So then you say, okay, I'm getting divorced. Or fuck you, I'm out of here, man. That kind of thing. That's called spilling over. That's called breaking the container. Okay, the relationship's off. That's a result of lots of leaks. that are coming on so heavy and so fast that you can't even notice them. And if you can't notice them, then instead of like... If you notice them and they're dispersed, you recover. You admit them. You confess them. And then you're purified again. You're back to ready to try again. But if you're leaking and leaking and leaking and it's happening so heavily that you can't keep track of it, then you're getting weaker and weaker and weaker or you're getting more and more inflated. And if it's coming in, you're blowing up and you pop. If it's going out, you're leaking and leaking and pretty soon you have no energy. And if it's going back and forth between the two, you're getting just totally confused. And if that goes on too long without you being able to say, wait a minute, I've got to look here to see what's happening, and you can't get that space, then you're going to say, okay, I'm out of here.

[11:12]

So it's like cracking the container. Exactly. So spilling over is like cracking the container. No, leaking is not... The container can contain leaking because, you see, in the container there really isn't any leaking. There's just this illusion of gain and loss between us. Like, I give you a dollar, and you might think that you got a dollar, and I might think I lost a dollar. But in the container, the money's still... You know, we have the same amount of money in the group still. And if you think you gained something and I think I lost something, that's a problem that both of us have. But if I keep giving you money and keep giving you money and keep giving you money and keep giving you money for long enough, pretty soon you're going to get, you know, you're going to have problems and so am I. And we're going to jump out of the relationship. That's called breaking the container or breaking the relationship. And the process will then break down because we'll be separated and there'll be no relationship anymore. So what I mean by spilling over... And breaking the container is the same thing.

[12:13]

Because when you break the container, the stuff spills out. So outflows, leakages are things that happen in the process of human and interpersonal development. And what we need to do is become aware of them. And having a personal container and an interpersonal and a one-to-one or a one-to-many relationship, these are things which are the the stage upon which we enact the leakages. But if we start losing what we're interacting with, then what we're learning about is shot. Same way if we can't even deal with what we're doing with ourselves, and we say, I can't face that, then that's shot too. That's the difference. So two examples I thought of. One is not from my life, but it actually relates to my life.

[13:16]

It's a story about Houdini. Everybody know Houdini? Houdini was an Italian-American stunt artist. And he would do things like have himself tied up in a straitjacket and put in a safe and dropped in the river. And then he would get out of the straitjacket, unlock the safe. unlock the safe and get out of the water before he died of, you know, suffocation. Well, for money, too. For money and fame. He was quite famous. In America, anyway, he's considered perhaps the most famous stunt artist. Magician he was. Was he Jewish? So he was Jewish. So he was a magician, a Jewish magician. And I remember the way he died. He had a standing thing. He told people, anybody can punch me in the stomach, as hard as you want.

[14:21]

And so one day after one of his performances, he was still only about 40 or something like that, and still doing fantastic things. Some college boys came up to him and said, we hear we can punch in stomach as hard as you want. Is that right? And he said, yes. And they punched him before he had a chance. They didn't say, OK, now we're going to do it. And then he would get ready for them, and then they punched him. They punched him before he even knew they were going to punch him. His stomach was soft, and they ruptured his spleen. stomach muscles, when you tense them, can, or I don't know what, anyway, if you have strong stomach muscles, you know how to use them, you can protect from various heart blows. But everybody's stomach muscles, when they're relaxed, are relaxed. And the organs behind there, as far as I know, and everybody, are soft. And if you hit them, they can get injured. We've all actually got vulnerable tissue in there. If you open any of us up and go down, unless they're touching these organs, some of them are very sensitive on all of us. And if you press hard on them, you can kill a person.

[15:25]

You can actually reach in and hold somebody's heart like that and kill them by holding it. And so everybody inside of the, behind these hard stomach muscles and behind these ribs and these muscles, everybody is vulnerable. But if you tense up and protect yourself, you can take a lot of shock, psychic and physical shock, if you know it's coming. So they were supposed to tell him, but they didn't. They hit him, ruptured his spleen, and he would have been all right if he'd gone to the doctor, but he didn't go to the doctor, and he kept doing his things, and actually he did one more stunt, I believe, of being thrown in a straitjacket under the ice in Lake Erie with a ruptured spleen, and he got out. But with the ruptured spleen, it was kind of hard on him. He got pneumonia, I think, and died. as complications of this. The point being that people can take quite a bit if you ask them beforehand if they're up for it.

[16:29]

So it's often good to say to people, I'd like to say something to you. Are you ready for some feedback? Just ask them. And sometimes they say, okay, and then they're okay, and then they get ready. And sometimes by turning their body to the side or something like that, that'll protect some vulnerable part. Or anyway, they get ready. They know, okay, this is going to be hard. And when they say that to themselves, certain parts of their psyche back off and go hide and say, okay, we're not going to listen to this. We have ways of protecting ourselves. Or we say, okay, now I'm going to, don't worry. If this comes, you know, I'm going to protect you. Don't worry. Whatever, anyway. But if you're open physically, and sometimes in this group, we relax with each other and we get quite open and intimate. And because of that, we can deeply penetrate each other psychically. And therefore, if you have a lot of energy and you're talking to somebody intensely, it's good to ask them beforehand if you feel like you're going to penetrate them with some kind of energy, to ask them if they're up for it.

[17:34]

And sometimes they'll say yes and they get ready and then they handle it pretty well. And sometimes they say, oh my God, I didn't know you meant this. Stop. And then sometimes they say, no, I'm not up for it. I just had six of those today. I don't want another one." And you say, okay, later, maybe, maybe not. That's another thing you can do. And another thing you can do is, again, even if the person says yes, just stop and say, how are you doing? How's it going? How are you feeling? Give them some space. probably appeared invulnerable. And these college boys probably didn't. When he said, punch me in the stomach hard as you want, they probably didn't occur to them that actually this guy who could do that was actually vulnerable. Now, maybe they were just being mean and wanted to punch him before he was ready. I don't know. But they might not have. They might have just sort of thought, well, that means punch him any time.

[18:36]

That means he's Superman, rather than he has ways of protecting himself. I don't know. But I want to tell you a story about myself. When I was a little boy, when I was five years old, I was playing with my cousin, my cousin and my two cousins, my cousin Tommy, who was four years older than me, and my cousin Susie, who was one year older than me. And my memory was we were roughhousing, and I wasn't angry at her or anything, but I punched her in the stomach in the process and knocked the wind out of her. And do you know what knock the wind out means? And when you knock the wind out of a kid, when you're a kid and see you knock the wind out of another kid, I don't know the first time you ever saw it happen or happen to you, but you think the kid's going to die. It looks like they're not breathing. And, of course, they're terrified if it's the first time it happened to them. So you think maybe you've killed them, which I thought maybe I killed her.

[19:36]

And I don't know what happened, but my uncle came in the room and she got her breath back, which relieved me. But then he said to me, if you ever do that again, I'll kill you. And I thought, well, it actually seemed fairly reasonable that he would say that. Still, I felt like, excuse me for saying this, but what came into my little boy's mind, five years old, was you cannot play with girls. That's what came in my head. And a couple more times in my, as I grew up, a couple more times things like that happened between me and girls. And again, I said, see, you can't play with girls because they get hurt. And then it's just terrible what happened. It's just horrible. They can get like super hurt when you're playing with them. So by the time I was, you know, actually big and strong, I had already By the time I was physically stronger than girls, I'd already learned this message in my head was you can't play with girls physically like that.

[20:42]

And now I think actually I know I can play with girls. However, there's still certain rules. And actually somebody said to me that I was her punching bag. And I said, that's okay, but you just have to, again, punch me like in the arm or in the thigh. you know, or in the chest or in the stomach when it's hard. You can't punch me in the eyes or in the teeth and so on, or in the eardrum. There are certain places you can actually punch and it's okay. So you can't play with boys either if you hit them in the wrong places. But still I think there is in me and some other people a feeling like you can't play because you'll get hurt. But part of what this is about also, you see, is that when I said you can't play with girls, I said that the girl in me can't play. So she, not only couldn't I play with girls, but she couldn't come out to play either because she would get hurt.

[21:46]

So outside girls, the boy couldn't play with, and inside girls just could never come out and play. So again, now, if the girls come out to play and we're rough with them, from whatever direction, this confirmation of the, you know, not only vulnerability, but like vulnerability which is like disqualifying vulnerability, starts to come up and a container is broken again. Like, kind of like, okay, not going to play. So there is vulnerability. It's a fact of human condition, maybe not human reality. But the human condition is vulnerability. We are vulnerable. And some of us, especially some of us men, have been trained and reinforced to present an invulnerable persona. Therefore, it's good to remember that even invulnerable personas actually are... That's just a persona.

[22:50]

They're actually vulnerable. And also, vulnerability... Vulnerable personas are just personas, too. They actually can be quite tough, and you can play with them if you observe certain rules. And you can have intense interactions, but, again, in certain situations, you can't hit. Like when I got married, my wife said the basic rule she made was no hitting. So I've never hit her. She can take a lot, but there's no hitting. Hmm? Yeah. Yeah. It's a good rule. It's worked very well. Many times when I was losing certain kinds of battles, I wish I could resort to a good old... But I didn't, fortunately.

[23:52]

So that's something about how to, some discussion about how to have a call and have a process and be intent. So, I don't know exactly where to go next. There's different directions to go in. One would be, let's see, I just want to say that This container, from my point of view, to create this container, both for this person, for this person and one other people, or for the whole group, all of our different relationships, is to study the self.

[24:54]

This container is to study the self. That's to bring it back to sort of like the theme for Buddhist practice, which is the same as take care of yourself, take care of each other, take care of the whole world. And which is another word for, you know, another way to talk about . And I guess maybe I should do this before I forget. And so I want to write this Chinese character on the board. And there will be more Chinese, I hope. I think we'll call it chalk here. Well, before we do that, is this going to be sort of a different topic? Is that a question? No, it's not going to be a different topic. This is going to be a very fundamental. So would you like me to wait? You can bring it up while I'm writing. Can I? Yes. It definitely seems, everything you said, very wise thing to do in this community.

[26:03]

But it comes to mind to me that sometimes it could be appropriate in a certain situation. And I don't know. I don't know how one would be responsible enough to know what the appropriate situation is. But it seems like there's a lot of potential for an intense kind of learning and growth when something is brought up when someone isn't ready or isn't protected or isn't gotten ready. Like for myself, I feel that I have so much defense that I can use so much that sometimes I think I would appreciate Getting caught off guard. Getting caught off guard, exactly. A surprise that I wasn't ready for and that really hurt me or something. And that if we're always getting ready, that there's a lot of limitation in terms of really being shocked into a totally new place. Right, I agree.

[27:04]

Yeah. So when you said that, what came to my mind was that one of the important functions of a teacher is to do what you just said, to knock you off balance, to shock you. However, the time the teacher does that is, first of all, after you've told the person that you wanted them to be your teacher, number one, and also they do it when They usually do it to you when you're stable. And when you're stable, you're vulnerable. But you're stable, vulnerable. And then they knock you off balance. They don't have to knock you much either, just a little bit, but they shock you. They knock you off balance. They don't tell you it's going to be beforehand. They don't even think it's going to be beforehand. All they got to do is hold a mirror up, actually, and you're shocked. And it throws you off in a stable situation. When you're vulnerable and stable, you learn. That's the situation you learn in.

[28:05]

But you also told this person, you can hold a mirror up to me. That is definitely, those are the situations that we're trying to set up in this process to make a container where you've actually told somebody that they can do that for you. You've achieved stability. You are vulnerable. And then you get the shocking thing. But it's a person who's basically just holding a mirror up. They're not laying their trip on you. And they have a responsibility to keep track of themselves and to know when they're leaking. And if they're leaking, like if they're holding on to this, this is key, right? This is the opportunity. This is the character which represents the the way that the cosmos interacts with the individual and the way the individual interacts with the cosmos. So, whenever the opportunity arises in a given situation of life, for example, if this key gets stuck, and like if my key gets stuck that I'm working with, if my intellect gets stuck in this position,

[29:23]

At that time, I should be able to tell that I'm now completely upset. At that time, I'm not going to come over and lay into you. And if you ask me what I think about this thing I'm stuck on, I'm going to get away from you, especially if you told me that you're going to make yourself vulnerable to me. I'm going to go take care of myself. I'm going to say, Right now, I can't help you. Right now, I can't be the mirror for you. I have to go do my thing. I'll come back someday, but not right now. When I take care of it, then I can come back and say, now, what did you say? We can start over, because I cleared my own... I looked at my leakage, and it dropped away, and now I'm back to zero again, and now if you want to start over, we can do it again. A teacher has to be able to spot her own stuff. Otherwise, they lay it on the student.

[30:26]

For example, when a teacher does this, it's not like they go and say, oh, he's stable now and he's vulnerable, so I'm going to shock him. That's not what you do. The student is stable and vulnerable or not. If they're not vulnerable, they're not stable. They're not stable. They're not vulnerable. Vulnerability is actually very good. It means you're in your human situation. But if somebody comes up to you with some trick of teaching you something, again, they're outflowing. They have to just be with themselves and take care of their own problems, you know. I got problems, I got problems, I got problems, I got problems. This is a person that can help you. And that will shock you if you're in that state. So what you said is the point of this whole thing, is to set up those kind of interactions. So are you saying that an intentional interaction like that should be limited to the teacher?

[31:35]

I'm saying it's not intentional. I'm saying the teacher does not intentionally go around teaching people stuff. I'm saying a teacher is working on himself. And when a person's working on himself, interacts with somebody who's said to that person, you can interact, you can work on yourself in my presence. You can actually work on yourself when you're with me. You can sit zazen with me, and if that takes the form of you saying something about me or giving me some reflection, that's okay, I'll listen to that. If something pops out of your mouth, like, how's your mother, you know? And that throws you for a loop. It's not like I thought, no, I'm going to throw you for a loop. When you get in a situation like that, you just sort of say stuff like that, and it throws people for a loop. It's not because you're trying to. It's because of the relationship that you're able to do these things. It's not intentional. You just say, how are you feeling? Or, is your mother okay?

[32:39]

And that's just exactly... what the person needed to hear in order to learn something. The intentional part is to set up the container. That's the intentional part. That's like setting the table, getting the terms clarified, making rules. Oh, and one other thing, another way to make the situation safe is anybody in this class or anybody any time at Tassajara, as far as I'm concerned, not just me, can raise their hand and say, wait a minute, I'm losing it. another thing you can do. You mentioned the thing about being stuck in . Yeah. So I was talking about in the realm of Zazen, one of the kinds of outflow you need to learn how to spot

[33:41]

is the outflow around views. And Pam said, well, what about something really important, you know? And anyway, as a result of that conversation, I thought that I wanted to clarify the difference between what he called courage of conviction and being attached to a view. Okay? Courage of conviction is, when I use that word, I always say it's, again, that's a positive value I have. But because, again, because of that positive value, I have to be careful not to attach to what I think courage of the convictions are. So, the point of, when this key, when this key, when this energy comes into a living system, When the sun and the moon and the rice and the oxygen and everything and all the people and human language and history come into a human being and the human being has an intellectual perception of something, like that's dangerous or that's harmful, this is natural.

[34:57]

This happens all day long. And just again, to show an example, in my life that, you know, I thought it was a good one. And when my daughter was little, like two, she could walk. I was standing on Page Street in front of 340 Page. And she started walking down the driveway into the street. And she was out of my arms. She was out of the reach of my hand. And I yelled at her to stop. And I yelled real loudly, with energy similar to getting hit by a truck. And said, stop, you know. And I think I said, never walk in the street without me. And tremendous energy, fierce energy. I think that was key. This key, this opportunity, the opportunity was there.

[36:00]

It came into me. And in the observable event of feeling like I did not want her to get hit by the car, and I stopped her with that yell. I didn't hit her, and I was not the least bit angry at her. And I never had to say it again. She never went in the street again, ever, without my permission until she was eight. And we said she could cross the street without us. And we watched. And now she crosses the streets without me, even when I'm not watching. It's okay. She learned, you know. Also, I did the same thing with sticking the finger in the electrical outlet. One yell was all it took. Never had to put those things over the things. And I wasn't angry. I wasn't self-righteous. I didn't think I was... I just did that. So you can stop things based on your values like that before you even get stuck. In other words, this always comes into a position.

[37:03]

It always comes into a position. In terms of intellectual positions, there's always an intellectual position. Every moment there's one. But the universe does not hold still. It then produces another intellectual position. Now, sometimes the intellectual position it produces is very similar to the previous one. But it is the same one coming up again. In other words, it's been actually an honest reversal. A turnover has happened and produced the same thing. Like, you can love somebody over and over and over again. You do not have to hold to the position that you love them. Now, if you don't really love them, you may feel like you should hold to the position that you love them because out of obligation, and then you get into trouble because you think you're supposed to love them or you're supposed to hate them or whatever. Then you get these outflows and you get upset. Again, if you have some sense of composure, it helps you to spot outflows again.

[38:09]

Now, courage of convictions means for me that if there's somebody around who thinks I'm supposed to be acting a certain way, that I still have the courage to yell at my daughter, even though somebody may think that this is not a proper behavior for me or something. Or someone might even, I don't know what, hit me or something. if I talk that way. But if at that time I thought it was the right thing, I let myself do it. Not saying again, not even flinching for a second to say, this is right. Not even hanging around that long. Just being there long enough to feel like I don't want this to happen. That's no. And then yelling to stop it. To be there a little bit longer and say, well, I think I'm right. Probably that's too much. And probably thought flows start happening. You missed it. Still, you may get by with it, but basically you'll notice a difference between the two. One, you'll feel the outflow. The other, you won't.

[39:12]

One, you'll be clear afterwards. The other, you'll be shaking. You have to judge for yourself. This is not for somebody else to judge, although other people could judge it. That doesn't really help. So courage of conviction means you do always act in accordance with your values. In fact, you do. You may not do something more, but you do actually stand behind, you do think that's reality. But it's not really a reality, it's just the way things have dawned on your intellect at that moment. It's not a fixed thing. And then let it move. It will. So there should be courage of convictions, but they might change. your values might change. Yes? What do you think happens when that yell, like the yell at Taya, frequently that happens not the way you described it, which was you weren't angry, you were intact, and very clear it was, and you weren't angry at her after.

[40:26]

But frequently it gets perverted, and the in just that kind of situation. And the adult response is not only to yell, to grab and spank, to have a remaining anger, and yet it happens in that same split second. And I'm wondering where the perversion happens that would take it from what's quite clean to something that's not clean. Well, one theory, one hypothesis is that it moves into this position, you maybe act from that position, and then it stays there. It tries to justify itself from that position? Well, it stays in the position. It thinks that this is like more than just for the moment. Well, sometimes, in fact, if you notice that you did the right thing, sometimes you want to stay there for a few seconds and revel in the fact that, hey, this was right. Let's just stay here for a little while.

[41:27]

Now that I'm in the right position, what else could I do from here? Well, I could spank everybody in the block. Finally, I'm right. This is definitely right. Babies should not be in the street, right? Okay, now let's just apply that all over the place. Well, it's lost, you know. The rest of the people don't want to hear about it anymore. It was okay then. That's enough. It's over. Now you're just a regular guy again in the street who doesn't know anything, who doesn't see any absolute truths anymore, who doesn't see any real helpful things to do. You're just standing there like, well, no, what am I going to do? Well, that's where your key is right now. Your key isn't kind of like, I'm just a person standing in the street. Now I guess, where were we going again? Where were we going? You can't even, you know, you're... But to be able to act incisively from where you are and then let that go and remember, okay, we were going to the grocery store. Let's just be ordinary people again. That's pretty good. But people don't want to come back to ordinary... That's one theory, anyway, about what happens. Well, it makes sense.

[42:28]

I'm just trying to push it a little further because it actually pretty neat stuff. Physiologically, the adrenaline has probably gone shooting up. So you've got a physiological thing that, you know, from the point of view of stress theory and so on, somehow has got to dissipate. I'm trying to figure out where how that gets dissipated without, you know, without getting stuck in that place. Because it feels as though, to me, when that happens, it feels as though I'm out of control and something is happening between me. Well, it doesn't have to evoke the adrenaline thing. It doesn't have to evoke the adrenaline. But if it does, it doesn't have to, but if it does, then what do you do with the adrenaline? Now the key is in the form of you've got adrenaline. Does this mean anything?

[43:31]

Huh? You didn't want to raise your hand, though, before you did that? No, I didn't want to make a fuss. OK. You didn't want to look. Make a fuss. Make a fuss. Does anybody want to check on her or anything? Or what should we do? um so anyway if adrenaline happens then we move into another another kind of outflow situation okay which is I would say related to uh maybe feels like it would be related to the outflow around feelings feelings or emotions okay now in that case the way it's described is that um

[44:35]

your knowing, your process of knowing, always turns towards and away. And therefore your view starts getting biased. So with the adrenaline coming up in you, this is producing, this is a strong emotion, right? I don't know, your heart's beating or, you know, all your sugar levels all getting turned around. This is, I think, going to be unpleasant or pleasant or, you know, exciting or whatever, right? So then the outflow is that you're going to turn towards or away. And if you start turning towards and away, then you actually start to change your view. This takes you back then to your view. The outflow of views is the same view as the view now that gets biased by your feelings. Then again, so that's going to be biased, which means it's going to set you up for kind of like a view, which again, you could then get stuck, and then you're really going to be in a mess.

[45:45]

So like if your adrenaline got shot up, and then somebody would say to you something at that time, you might be particularly susceptible because you might be turning away from this feeling or turning towards this feeling. Again, if you can spot just having your adrenaline come up and see my adrenaline's coming up and stay with it and not get turned by it, Or even if you get turned by it, to watch yourself getting turned by it and say, okay, I've got this adrenaline in me. It's a little bit like you just took a drug, right? If you just took some adrenaline, say, okay, I've got adrenaline in me now. So probably... I notice how my view is changing now. How I feel differently about people now that this is happening. It actually changes the way I see people since this blood sugar thing has changed. And my feelings have changed. If you watch all that, this outflow is happening, but this ends the outflows. What's one other thing I want to mention is that is when we say, you know, bono mugin, se gan dan, I vow to dan.

[46:53]

Se gan means I vow or vow. Dan does not mean to put an end to. or end them. Don literally means, and it's the only thing that's in the dictionary in Chinese and Japanese, don means to cut, to cut through. I don't think you put an end to these outflows, basically. Maybe some great Buddha does, but I don't think the point is you put an end to them. I think it's that you cut through them, and you cut through them by getting very intimate with them so you can spot them as they're happening, So these feelings come up, you watch yourself turning this way and that way, and you watch your view start to get biased by this turning. If you watch that, it's an act of confession. You're confessing while this is happening, and the confession releases you on the spot, if it's thorough. Yeah? Feel free to set this aside. It's too much of a tangent. the more traditional or something or older Buddhist understanding about the end of the ashramas, isn't it that some of the phenomena that you're describing won't occur anymore?

[48:04]

Certain feelings will not arise because their basis has been uprooted or destroyed or... So... I think that the arhat, you know, I think arhat means burned out. So one of the older interpretations of Buddhist teaching is that these asuras are actually ended. But the Mahayana text anyway that we chant doesn't say ended, it says cut. Now, you could say also, well, they're cut at the root. But part of what Mahayana Buddhism is dealing with is whether you have a human being, a regular human being, who is free of this stuff, are whether you actually turn this stuff off. One understanding is you turn it off. Another understanding is it's turned on. In other words, you're open to it, but you maintain the precepts. So there's three understandings, actually.

[49:08]

One is they're dried up. The other is they're not dried up. They're there. You're an actual human being. You are tempted by the things that ordinary people are tempted by, but you have a firm conviction to not violate precepts, and you open your heart to your humanness, but you don't indulge in it. There is, however, a later Mahayana development, which I've just been reading about, Shinran, where he had a dream Avalokiteshvara is saying to him that if a practitioner, he says a practitioner actually, should have sexual desire, I will become the object of the desire and become his or her partner and help giver. I, the bodhisattva of compassion, will be their consort.

[50:13]

and will help them so that actually you can not only be open to, but you can actually engage in. And Avalokiteshvara will be the one you're engaged with. Now, the practitioner believes that. That's carrying it one step further. But that is a difference between the idea of not drying it up but opening to it and still having some integrity with the precepts. That is a difference. Now, my understanding, however, is that for most Theravadan practitioners, they do the monthly confession thing and that most Theravadan monks will be confessing that, you know, I I saw this woman and I really was attracted to her and I really, you know, I think some of the Theravadan monks that we feel close to, like Ajahn Chah's lineage, they recognize that they're open to and admit that they have such feelings.

[51:37]

If they act on them, then they also admit that and they might get kicked out. But they don't get kicked out for having the feelings. And if they admit them especially, that's part of the process. And in Zen we would say that the admission of it is purifying. And I think they would say the same thing. The admission purifies. We would say the admission... I would say that the admission's thorough, you're completely purified. And I would say also that Dogen's understanding is that Buddha is confessing. It says in our ordination ceremony... Even after acquiring Buddhahood will you continue this pure practice of confession. So even after, it is possible that after Buddhahood you still are tempted, that you still think of stealing or having inappropriate sexual relationships or whatever. Or you think, well actually I'm a little bit better than any other practitioners in this area.

[52:41]

Something like that. It seems, too, that the doctrine of emptiness comes into play, doesn't it? Because if I think from the khinayana view that I have unwholesome dharmas to extinguish, that's to give them some thingness or... Yeah, or another way to put it is, if I think that I myself can determine what is unwholesome, that I myself can determine what is wholesome and unwholesome... That's an understanding that I can determine the meaning of the precepts all by myself, which would mean that, you see, if I can decide that right now I'm violating a precept, if I can decide right now that I'm violating the precept, for example, of lying to you or of slandering you, if I could decide by myself that I was doing that, then I could also decide that I wasn't doing that. and I couldn't slander you from your point of view and say, no, no, I'm not slandering you, because I decided I wasn't. Whereas actually, you should be somewhat involved in whether I'm slandering you or not.

[53:47]

It's something you and I'd work out together, whether I'm slandering you. So I can't actually tell by myself. That's another part of the emptiness of these precepts. What about the sapa? the Bodhisattva or Mahayana understanding of Vinaya or anything. It's not a, again, Hinayana tradition, as I understand it. There's no Hinayana tradition. Okay, in the Theravadan tradition, there would be an Abhidharma tradition. There would be codified dharmas spelled out, you know, this dharma, this dharma is wholesome. Right, but still, in fact, there's always interpretation. No, if they had an understanding, that's a Hinayana understanding. But that's not Hinayana, that's not a tradition. That's a personal bias. that someone takes up. But wasn't it taken up by whole schools of Buddhist practitioners? I don't know if they... If you actually press them, you probably find out that they just did it for convenience.

[54:55]

It sounded like they were really saying there was a thing called an unwholesome dharma. But if you press them, they would say, well, actually, now that you've mentioned it, actually, there really isn't anything to our theory. We just do this because it kind of is nice to have a theory. And the system's really cute, isn't it? So I give them the benefit of the doubt. I think individuals, though, may have had that understanding. But I don't want to say that the Buddhist tradition had that understanding. Although they did sound like that. It's true. Well, historically, you don't get the impression that that was true. I know, but if you do that, then you're making that out of them. Well, I don't want to do that. But I have another question. Was the second outflow, you're talking about feelings? Is that what you started to ask me? He went from views to... It's the first... I mean, yeah. The first kind of leakage, the first kind of outflow is outflow of feelings. And the Dukesan definition is the knowing always turns towards and away, and the view is biased because of that. So this is feelings like Vedana, this tiger?

[55:58]

Feelings, yeah. Well, it says the character used is... a character which means feelings, but actually it means, literally it means feelings, but also sometimes translated as animate or sentient feelings. But it doesn't have the character pervade enough, so it could be like feelings in the sense of low blood sugar level. Or hormonal, certain hormonal. A physiological feeling. Yeah, it could be physiological rather than just positive or negative. Mm-hmm. But is it feelings in the sense that also we use it in the sense of emotions? Yeah, sometimes it's translated. Actually, in Cleary's translation of case 15 of the Blueprint for Record, at one point he says feelings, and at another point he says emotions. So it includes physical sensations. I think it could. Well, strictly speaking, physical sensations, when you are aware of them, are not physical sensations, they're mental objects.

[57:05]

So this is at the level of, this turning towards and away is turning towards and away towards mental objects. However, physiological situations may have set up these emotions, but emotions are not physiological. I understand that, but I'm confused a step before that, I think. In terms of the outflows, the word feelings, we use it, or I use it in angry, In an inexact way. Because sometimes I say feelings and I mean physical sensations. And sometimes I say feelings and I mean emotions. And I don't necessarily differentiate. Sometimes I mean both. So feelings could be said to be positive, negative, and neutral feelings. Those three types of evaluations, which are skanda called feeling or sensation skanda. But in this case, I think it could also include anger and confusion.

[58:06]

fear, all those things that might come up, for example, in association with hormonal or blood sugar variations. So in this case, I think it would be OK to flop them all together into feeling and motion. Is it OK to include the tightening of the stomach muscles or flushing of the face or physical sensations? Is it okay to include those? Yes. Yes, but they're not physical when you're aware of them. It's okay to include those, yes. Those are the kinds of things which we turn towards and away from, and because we flinch from them or indulge in them, that biases our view. And that's a major kind of outflow we have. When we're talking to somebody or interacting, for example, also one of the things I learned after a few years of practicing Zen was that sometimes when I was talking to people and I had to go to the bathroom, I had trouble noticing that I had to go to the toilet.

[59:12]

And I would try to continue to go pay attention to the conversation. But then I couldn't pay attention to the conversation because I had to go to the toilet. So gradually I learned that it'd be better just to say, guess what? Right away, to say, I have this feeling down here, and I think I should go to the toilet. In other words, to recognize it. Because to turn away from it doesn't work. And actually to turn toward it didn't work. What works is basically to go to the toilet, because you can't pay attention to what you're saying to the person anyway. Now, if I didn't get turned towards or away, then I probably could stay and have the conversation. But I had to admit, as a human being, I was having these outflows. I was having outflows around the need to have an outflow. And that's, again, like Jesse was saying, we have outflows around, up around. When we notice we're having leaks, we think we're not supposed to have them. So we notice a leak, we feel bad about having leaks.

[60:18]

We get emotional about having leaks. We say, I shouldn't be upset about this. I shouldn't be letting this little thing get to me. So then that's noticing an outflow, and then having a feeling about it, and then getting turned by the feeling. So you have these outflows on outflows on outflows, and you get more and more upset. But if you would then at some point start admitting them, you can work your way back to admitting them, and clear the board, and admit them all, and start over. with a good pee. I can pee. I can be a human being. Oh, God. It's great. And then start over. Go back to the conversation or whatever. Let's see. Now, we had this thing about if you're having a hard time and you need some help, you can raise your hand. Anybody want to raise their hand who's having a hard time? Hmm? Okay.

[61:23]

I'm getting bored. What's boring? You're not going to put your finger in it? I'm just joining the question over here. I'm not really related. I've been on this topic for a long time. What's the topic? I don't know. Well, one topic is this thing about how this, in one case, when it interacts with views, how when the opportunity is views or intellectual opinions, how it gets stuck and how that happens. The other is now when the opportunity or the occasion or the function is feelings, how then in relationship to that we get turned and how to spot that. And then there's one more. So we're studying these outflows. Does that make it more relevant? I don't know who was next. I don't know if it was you. I think you had your hand, and I think it was Barbara. No, I think it was. No, I think it was.

[62:24]

Yeah, go ahead. Oh, okay. Yeah. It better be. I'm a little confused. I'm a little confused. You seem to be using the word feelings in a rather typical sense of said feelings of positive, negative, and true. I'm not sure what that is. I mean, what I was thinking, it seems to me is that I was using, like, thinking of emotions and feelings kind of interchangeably is the way I've been using them in the past. And it seems to me that emotions and thinking are part of the same process, basically the same thing, but that emotions have a little more, a certain energy associated with them, like adrenaline. Like if you're angry, it's a thought, but it's got adrenaline associated with it. Or maybe if you're in love, Serotonin is involved, I don't know, you know, but it seems to me that they're both part of the same process. So I don't know if I'm wrong or right or it kind of is in that.

[63:25]

Also, are you using feeling as a different thing than emotion? Yeah, well, there is a technical use of feeling in Buddhist analysis of feeling being... The fact that in every moment of consciousness, part of what your mind does is it always evaluates what's happening. You may not be conscious, it may not be something you're aware of, but you always evaluate the situation as positive or negative, or you can't tell which. You do that every moment. That's what we technically call feelings or sensation. You may or may not be conscious of it. Yes, but it is going on in your consciousness, you are doing that, and you're squirming your seat in relationship to that if you have outflows around your feelings. And emotions would include, would be a different category of thing, although they're in the same field, the same mind field, and that is basic emotions are greed, going towards things and attaching to them, anger, moving away from things, and confusion between those two.

[64:26]

Those are the three basic emotions. There's also many others. Feelings are highlighted as a separate skanda. You know all five skandas? Feelings are highlighted because feelings are the easiest mental phenomena to spot. Pain, pleasure, and neutral are the easiest. Those are mental phenomena, mental judgments are the easiest ones to spot. So they're given a skanda all by themselves because in terms of getting into awareness of your mind, that's the grossest form. But these other emotions are also basically in the same field. It's all in the same field. It's just breaking them up sometimes in order to help us get in touch with them. But in terms of this, the way Dungsan's using it, I would say that he's talking about emotions, including greed, hate, and delusion, feelings, positive, negative, and neutral, fear, but not views and not opinions. Opinions are different. They're more conceptual and more intellectual. they can throw you into tremendous, they can throw you into doing horrible things to yourself and others.

[65:34]

They're very powerful. And then they can connect in with the emotions and the feelings very nicely to create big problems or be quite helpful. So Mark or Barbara? For years I had a real blood sugar problem until one day, and I think this kind of goes back to the character of Key, I just noticed that I got very angry at things. What I'm asking is, I started to associate, well, I would just say, well, I have a low blood sugar problem, so therefore I get angry.

[66:40]

And I would tell people this. My question is, even though we realize that this is a problem that we have, When I feel that there's something that I'm not doing, I'm not turning away from it, I'm wondering if, can you... You felt that awareness of the problem was not freeing you from it. Right. In other words, I said, okay, There have been certain times, obviously, there are times where I get angry, and it's like, well, so then my mind says, oh, well, therefore, you have this little question with Bob, and you get angry, and you do very angry things. And my mind has somehow justified that whole point of saying, so therefore, it's okay. You have justified this whole problem and it's kind of moved it somewhat upside, whereas now I have this policy.

[67:50]

And... So it's an unsolvable problem. Yeah, exactly. Now I really don't have to work on it. Well, one thing I would say is that I don't think it goes from low blood sugar to anger. I think it goes from low blood sugar... to discomfort, and you didn't notice the discomfort, and you didn't notice that you turned away from the discomfort. In other words, your story you told, you missed an opportunity to release yourself because you missed the opportunity to see the root of the problem. So that's one possible key there is that if in fact you have a condition that produces a result and there's no way to break that connection, then in fact you and the rest of the world have to live with it. And it's not a problem.

[68:54]

For example, there's a connection between you and being male. This is not something, by being aware of it, you know, it's going to go away. It's something you have to live with, and we do too. But you do not have to live with your outflows in the sense that they're just going to be that way, and if you're aware of them, it's not going to affect them. So I think in that particular case, you missed, your awareness was not, the story you told anyway, your awareness was not thorough enough Now, if you do that and that doesn't work, then let's hear about that. But I don't think you should let yourself off yet until you've done a little bit more work on that. And I mean, it sounds like a little thing, that little point there, but it is.

[69:55]

It's an extremely big point. I was talking about this last practice period a lot, is that I thought we should put a big flag over Zen Center, a big yellow flag which says denial on it, because people are not supposed to be into denial at Zen Centers, therefore they deny that they're into denial. So we're super into denial here. I'm not saying more than most places, but in some sense, more in a certain way Because in other places, they're into denial, but they just go ahead and just deny. We also have a ban on denial. So since we have denial like other places, not really worse, and also we're down on it, we should make some special effort to realize that we have trouble admitting our pain. People all over the world have trouble admitting our pain. We do too. If you would admit your pain more, the anger would not arise.

[71:00]

Anger does not arise in people who completely accept the pain. Accept this kind of anger like stay out of the street. But that doesn't come from pain. That came from just stopping the person from hurting herself. That's all. I wasn't angry at her. I wasn't even in pain yet. Anger basically comes from impatience. with difficulty and insult. And also it comes from difficulty with reality. That's three things that we have to be patient with. Hardship, insult, and reality. We have trouble with all three of those things. They're all painful for us in a way. If you can accept that pain, you won't have the anger anymore, and then you won't have to justify the anger. And most people, all of us, when the feeling of pain comes up, we generally turn away.

[72:07]

And then it's not just that, but then our view gets biased. Because now you're not only in pain, you're not only turning away, but you're not looking over here, which is where the problem is, which is a place you should come back and look at it. So it's a small point, but it's a key ingredient. And if you would work on that, I'd like to see you then come back and say that you don't get relief. To tell you the truth, I haven't seen anybody fail at this. I mean, I've seen people fail at practicing patience, but I haven't seen them practice it thoroughly and then not have it work. Also, I've never seen anybody practice it thoroughly. But I have seen people try it a little bit or a lot and seen it work a little bit or a lot. And I've heard about it being practiced thoroughly and being completely successful. This is called Buddhahood. It's the primary cause of enlightenment, this particular one.

[73:10]

I have a question for understanding one. So what means you turn away and then your view gets biased? I don't know what... Well, I mean, in a primitive sense, you have pain, right? And you turn away. So now you have a biased view because you just tilted your head away from what it was that's causing you pain, right? Your bias means your view is now... is now tilted or inclined away from what's happening because you have turned away from it. Whereas before, you were just like sitting there like this, and I'm like, oh, this wasn't biased, this just happened to be the way you were looking. And you got this pain. This is just the way you were looking. Now you're intentionally turning away from it. So now, because of your turning, you've biased yourself from what's happening. You're biased, you're tilting, you're inclined away from or towards something, rather than just sort of being open to the field, which is painful or pleasurable or confusing, you now have taken a position in regard.

[74:22]

So again, the key is off. And now what you think can be prejudiced by the fact you turned away from your pain or your pleasure, or probably turned towards your pleasure. That's biased. But let's see, what time is it? It's almost time to stop. Did you remember your question from the other day? What is it? It goes back to the caissando and the decision on what to do to keep the mud on and how you mentioned that you were stuck in this view and so you disqualified yourself from the decision. Because you were stuck there, and my question was, how do decisions, how do we make this, how does one make a decision then if we don't have this judgment and analysis that this is the best way to do it or the right thing?

[75:28]

That this is better than this way if we don't take it apart and say, this is why this is better than this way, and how do we make that decision? And if I just say, I have this view, so I guess I disqualify myself. No, it wasn't that I had this view, therefore I disqualified myself. It was that I was charged up around this view, therefore I disqualified myself. But the view, fortunately or unfortunately, was out there anyway. I didn't think of the view up on myself. Someone else already held it. It was still, it was on the table as one of the possibilities. I had heard these suggestions from various people. So I didn't have to hold this view up in this particular case. It was already out there. Actually, all I had to do was back away, and it went out by its own merits, which I happen to appreciate. If I had gotten in there with my charge, I might have just caused a lot of trouble, and it might have just bogged the whole process down or even flipped over to the other side because they said,

[76:34]

There's two alternatives. This crazy guy is on this side. The other side must be right. So me being on the side of adding this chemical to keep it from drying out might have meant that the other way would have happened. I don't know. Maybe not. So the decision was made without me making any further contributions. I made almost no contributions other than not screw it up. And people looked at the alternatives, and they decided. And I think it was a good decision. Sometimes that's the best contribution you can make is just not to interfere with what's happening. Okay. I understood when you were talking about having this charge behind this view and being stuck in that this is the right thing. So what I guess my understanding is right now, which I think I understood before, was that this... the evaluation and comparison between the different means is a necessary tool for coming to the best decision.

[77:43]

But to get caught up in thinking that there's no other way to do this except this way is where the problem comes in? Yeah. That would be one way that the problem would come in. Or even to think that this is the best way and the other way is You know, it could be done, but it really is stupid and ugly. You know, not appreciate any merit in the other people's view. Not to think, well, this guy who wants to rip the stuff off and put plywood up and spray it. But this is a human being, you know, who has some good qualities and some experience in the building industry. And, you know, actually he's... The key's coming into him, too. The universe has decided to make him. Buddha nature is manifesting here, too. Maybe I could respect this guy at least a little. Maybe I could respect this guy a lot and still disagree with him. Okay, I'm still missing somewhere how the decision actually gets made. Okay, I have respect for this other opinion, but where does, I mean, how does it come to the decision, okay, we're going to use the chemical and put it up there?

[78:48]

Well, in this particular case, I think probably most people, including the guy who said the stucco thing, maybe saw that that would be cheaper, you know, nicer. more in accord with the people who built it in the first place. And maybe most people liked it that way. Most people thought it was appreciated. That's probably how it was made. I guess the majority of the people involved in the process, including me, but I was out of it, wanted to do it this way. They just didn't realize it beforehand because they had this other view. They didn't realize that they really wanted to do it this other way. No. I only knew of one person that... Various possibilities were being suggested, right? Nobody had decided that... Some people thought this was the best way and somebody else thought this was the best way. Some other people maybe hadn't really decided. So they had the discussion and they decided this one. That's how the decision was made. And I think most other people, I mean some of the other people...

[79:50]

you know, didn't have such a big charge on it. Plus also, none of the other people were the abbot. So if the abbot has a charge, it's particularly destructive. It's invested with this extra energy. So, and then you feel that too. You feel that, oh God, I got this, you know. So it's all the more, you pick up that people's projections and then you put that into your feelings. So you have to be more clear than you would be otherwise. So what you're asking, How can you possibly make a decision without leakage around views? How could you decide without leaking right out of the trash can? That's pretty close. Yeah. I mean, how can you say, well, this is what we should do, or this is what should be done? I mean, I'm having a hard time keeping away from should, or this is the best, or having some judgment around this idea as opposed to that idea, because when you compare How do you analyze without... Well, the other people probably involved probably had some leakage around it, too.

[80:55]

Maybe. Did you say how can you decide without deciding? Would you... This way is better than that way? Yeah. You do do that. You said necessary. I would say necessary, yes, but it's necessary because human minds, when the energy comes into our body, our mind does make evaluations, and we really do think that this way is better than that way. But even though you think that, you can still balance that by realizing that people who have a different opinion could be actually very respectable people. And that you should also remember that you might be able to change your mind to the opposite opinion with different information. You don't have to come down that heavily in your position. In other words, the key comes into a certain position but doesn't have to stay there. It says the key does not move from its position. It stays there. So if it doesn't wiggle a little bit, then it becomes really problematical. If you stay open to the other possibilities, say, okay, this is where I think best, but I'll listen to other arguments.

[81:57]

And you start swaying with the breeze of the arguments. Kind of neat, that's good, that's good, that's good. And you start moving. Then the other people start to respect you, too, because they see you're not just a rock wall. There's some openness in the process. He might still say, well, I've listened to all the arguments. I still think this is the best way. And the other people might say, well, we still think the other way is the best way, so let's vote. In other words, you're still friends, though. You haven't talked to them like they're really low-quality entities. That part I missed somewhere, that that's what you were saying about respecting other people involved in the process. I missed that. I just got the sense that you were saying Some of you are a judge, but I understand. We must have news and judgments. We do. That's what I thought. Yeah. I'm sorry. It's 9 o'clock. It says 9 o'clock. In case people didn't know. What?

[82:55]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_84.81