Causation and Non-Self 

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hi welcome your feedback on walkie meditation you like to tell me some time
how goes for you
let's see i at the beginning of this year
hi i mentioned
that the i heard that there was a
an influential group of thinkers in america
who came into their
maturity after the civil war
and they they included people like william james and oliver wendell holmes and charles purse
and the chauncey right
and and later
part of their group but really influenced john dewey
and these these people shared a belief
they shared a belief that and they shared an idea which they believed in which was that all ideas
are entirely dependent
for all beliefs are entirely dependent
however words all beliefs dependent are dependent core risings
and they are entirely that way
and so
i i offer this year to concentrate on what does it mean that something's entirely dependently core reznor depend entirely dependent are entirely contingent
one of the meanings is that it doesn't have up
an inherent logic of his own an inherent
ah be a it doesn't have a its own being own inherent being
so i i also want to say turn of to kind of reiterate the basics here and that is that dumb
the point
of compassion
his enlightenment
the point of compassion is enlightenment and at the same as saying the point of compassion is helping others
and helping them
in the most complete and liberating way
the point of compassion is to help others become free of attachment
attachment is the most central element
in the panic or arising of unhappiness and suffering
the goal
the purpose
the intention
the heart
that help you
i'm surprised that the girl
the point of zen his enlightenment
the goal of zan his enlightenment
the goal of zen is helping others
the goal of zen is
helping others become free of attachment
hey but i just said to you is an idea
which has dependently core reason
and in my mind in my heart and have dependently core isn't out of my mouth into the room
and that's another belief i just have a belief about how i have this belief name my
independently cauterized with me and you
so causation is a teaching and when you receive the teaching you partly receive it in terms of ideas and these ideas you have about causation are
dependent on causes so the teaching of causation
his teaching that the teaching of causation on the ideas of causation or the same as everything else
so these are these people who are i just mentioned they came out of the civil war they came and then they became they were young horse or somewhat older than young adults after the world war after the second after the civil war was over
and they saw
in this country
what happens when people have ideas
and they do not understand
that these ideas are entirely
when they have beliefs that they think are not contingent but are
have their own
which is immutable
this is the base of this is one of the main basis i would say this as idea for you for a man i mean basis for violence
cutting away
dependency and contingency from continuing a front phenomena and being absolutely sure of them this is what and then get to people who are two bit two parties that have certainty about beliefs and they can be very violent with each other
i'm in so ah
part of a what i kind i kind of would like and this this desire i have
not like so much it's more like desire
i desire for the teachings of for these teachings to survive
and i would also say that the that these teachings are the indian which i believe in
that they'll survive by their adaptability rather than their immutability
so again i would say that
compassion for
and loving suffering
and the causes of suffering
gay love suffering
and the causes of suffering the causes of suffering in particular love
ha attachment
yeah attachment and ignorance love attachment and ignorance
car rising
gives rise to attachment
ignorance of causation sponsors attachment to things that
i caused
and that is that each say that is suffering attachment to things that are caused his suffering
attachment to dependent core risings and even the teaching of dependent core rising is suffering and it's also is the cause of suffering for it bought is suffering and the cause of suffering
so i'm proposing that if you can love ignorance and attachment
which are the causes of suffering
that this makes possible
a loving study
of causation
and lovingly studying causation sets up the loosening of attachment
compassionately studying causation sets up the loosening and the uprooting of attachment
and in the fullness of this loving in the fullness of this compassion
first for suffering and its causes
in the fullness of this study
of attachment and is causes
the attachment is completely cut through
this is a belief
which you and i can study the belief i just told you lovingly
lovingly study this
and study this without attachment
study the teaching that if you're lovingly studied the causes of attachment
have you do it real lovingly you want attached to the study of the causes of attachment and this will cut through the causes and the attachments
this study this this compassionate study or this study which is compassion
i'm a should be a practice with everything
not just with the teachings of causation
because everything is an example of causation
because there's nothing
that's not the result of causation
so another way to say this is i passed out that sheet of paper which says deep faith or deep belief and cause is in cause and effect or causation so i guess at some of you do have deep faith
great faith in the boy sought for way and the teachings of the buddha and so i i requested encourage you and me
to give up and not a bot give up your great faith in cause and effect
and not abide in it
if you have deep faith and cause and effect now
i encourage you to give it up and not abide in it
and if you do have deep faith and cause and effect and you are completely devoted to the teaching of cause and effect in the study of cause and effect
then you're ready to not abide in it
and hopefully continue to study it without abiding in it then this teaching well
will blossom as ah liberating beings from attachment
and another thing which i
the guy torches before but i just say it again it's so basic and so good to remember
if you or we if we are loving
with attachment if we love some teaching or some person
are some state or some country
some practice if we love anything with attachment
ha if we are if we love something with attachment or if were dwelling in the love of something attached to our love of something then i propose to you that we need to
love more completely
that our love is not yet complete if there's attachment so rather than and if you if you love with attachment of course because attachments that
central element in suffering your love your have a painful of it's a pain for loving
which is you know there's something to be said for the pain of loving because it's little bit like compassion but not
not quite exactly the same
and i can tell you more about that later if you'd like to know but right now i just like to emphasize that if we love with compassion
if i love his compassion and we have attachment we need to love more
and when i love becomes complete there will be no attachment
ha charlie sent me a not accept asking me one of the questions he asked me was
what do we do with people who are not interested in or
not devoted to science decision whether the questioning
not devoted a questioning what do we do with people who are not devoted to science or not devoted to questioning
when you do with people like that i'd i'd give you a suggestion what do you do with them jolly
the patient be patient gentle
not overbearing with the non questioners
and then you you you could say you take no action with regard to this person which would create attachment or put it the other way as you act towards them in a way that you do not become attached to them or them learn into question
and this and then if you if you practice that way the fruit of this the the fruit of this
this will fruit as i should say
these beings starting to question
one of the questions or be why you act so strangely
also i used the expression in the first class arriving at understanding
and he questioned that
didn't seem to him like you arrive and understanding
ah right that is is like it keeps changing and exchanges and constantly grows as we are understanding constantly garage yeah right so but anyway you arrive it's you you have some understanding right now and so why and so we actually would
the understanding we have is the understanding more in accord with what i would cross you know scientific knowledge
not personal
but still even iraq with still and we arrive at personal understandings and personal understandings are carried me going to my beliefs personal understandings standings are delusions
and but by group understanding can be correct knowledge and we arrive at that every moment the correct knowledge that we have this is is arrived at
however if we dwell in it
we've flipped back into our personal delusions
and we
we exile herself from the understanding which is comes from our group activity together
at the end of last class i think of towards the end or for the latter part of the classroom anyway at some point the class i brought up a different ways that the buddha denied determinism
and so i just thought msa the
the buddha teaches dependent or arising namely the buddha teaches at everything arises independence
through dependence through everything rises through dependence and everything actually it is cold dependently or dependently co arising because not only as everything arise and dependence on things other than itself it also
contribute to the or core arising of other things which it depends on so the things you arise independence with they also arise independence with you
that's a that's an expression of the pinnacle rising
if you'd understand that deterministically the nice thing about deterministic understanding is
there's nobody outside that making it happen
there's no cause of causation in that story because
it's so tight
that's the advantage of determinism
doesn't have a determiner
but the voter the buddha refutes strict determinism
i'm national say the buddha denies jerk determinism
and as i mentioned some
kind of common sense casual understandings of how things happen
common sense ways
that are an expression of dynein strict determinism
hi i'd like to go a little bit more into that tonight and i think i can do a fairly quickly
so on one side there is it and denial of
denial of a strict determination between action and fruit
the buddha did teach action has consequence
but the border denies that there's this district determination determinism between action and consequence
and this i think i like to call this a week or with a week sense
of determinism there is some determining we are determined by causes yes but this determination is week so another way to put it might be that we are influenced by causes we are dependent on causes we are influenced by causes we
the arise and dependence on them but it's more like the influence us rather than they completely determined us and similarly we to other things
we're influenced by everything and we influence everything
this is a kind of there's some determination here but it's week
so a denial of strict determinism could be it not know determinism but a weaker sense of determinism
then there is this not common sense way of talking which is buddhas a
we might say a deeper analytic way of talking about it which is simply one simple way of putting it is
if this
then that comes to be
if this than that comes to be that's one way to stay dependent arising
and again when you hear that you could hear that than
as strict determinism
so how do these two go together
and what's the problems with each
though the week determinism
the problem with the week determinism is that
hmm my second
yeah the problem with a week determinism is it it seems to conflict with the way of the way of putting it in a typical rising thing
if this is if this exists then that comes to be
so the week determinism seems to conflict with that soul food as denial of strict determinism seems to conflict with his basic teaching of the pinnacle arising
and when he teaches
when he yeah when even when he to even when he denies strict determinate determinism he also tells the practitioners to always remember the teaching of dependent core arising
so why you why you do not
take a strict connection between action and fruit you're also spoke to remember that there is a strong connection between action and fruit
this is the middle way
an indirect thing is that if you are
if you have this week sense of dependent carousing a week sense of determinant of causal determinism
then that
that might necessitate the positing of an agent or controlling power
intellectual is are intelligent design
if you have this week determinism view which the buddha does have
then it seems to imply
or that that that we might need to posit an agent or a controlling power
or some kind of intelligent designer
but that contradicts the teaching them have no self
so again the week as a week determinism directly seems to conflict with the pinnacle rising and indirectly seems to conflict with the teaching of
no self
when i like to speak to those concerns as you get those concerns
so regarding the first one
in the early teachings of buddha
almost constantly warns
ah have an overly strict and logically fallacious interpretation of his teaching of the pinnacle arising his teaching of causation he warns people again and again not to take the strictly
so ah the buddhists says that it is false that quotes a man must reap or a woman must reap according to her these her deeds it is false
that a woman must reap according to her deeds
that's false
so this is a warning even though he says actions have fruit now he tells you it's false to say that you will reap according to your actions
he says but it is true that rule that the reward a woman reaps
accords with her deeds
it's false
it's false that you must ah
reap according to your deeds but it's true that the reward you reap accords with your deeds
in other words if there is a reward than there are proper deeds which brought it about
but to say that proper deeds therefore to to say that there are proper deeds therefore there is reward
is false
it's the fallacy of 'em
affirming the consequence
proper deeds
means proper deeds fruit at the fallacy
so another way to put this is and we had a philosopher and our class at the beginning of the year at green gulch a swedish last for he he said that the definition of determinism is necessary and sufficient
so a proper deed is a necessary condition for comic reward
an improper deed is a necessary condition for a karmic punishment
but not a sufficient condition
so comic dependence implies implied by buddhist teaching of dependent core rising is more comic influence rather than com determinism
so this teaching ah is something which you can take care of
i think maybe next week i will go into the the teaching of the pinnacle rising in the twelve links and show you how to apply this kind of this way of working with that particular formula
you know the twelve links
you can memorize them tonight
twelve links are the the names of the links are
people are reading this and computers
ignorance karmic formations
name and form
six senses
since contact
ignorance comic formation consciousness name and form which means a body and mind six senses sense conduct
sensation are feeling
craving becoming birth old age sickness and death i missed one
i feel
oh grasping yeah grasping
grasping after clinging grass game measure craving yeah craving grasping yeah i miss grasping
k rent again ignorance
kami formation consciousness
mind and body
six senses
contact since contact feeling craving clinging becoming birth
old age sickness and death does twelve

ah and as com information mean
it means
which you know it means basically making a story out of
you know out of the universe or out of the field of experience first story
by ignoring dependent arising you can make a story about it
what you're breaking up a piece of the universe to make a story breaking up
breaking up not bring a breaking taking away many pieces from the universe to make a story
or taking one little piece of the universe but it's it's really like it is pushing away a lot of other stuff too since you can have some graspable version of of the universe which means the and universe means you in relationship to it
that's com information
and that's
that's do you make out of the universe it's a thought construction
independent on independence on ignorance right
independence on ignorance and clinical rising right
which am also includes dependent of ignorance of the
you know self of things
written other note the you

well it's okay
i'll find it somewhere
i want to tell you actually
i look up a word today substantive
it's a word which somebody some scholar used in discussing buddhist theories
so in this class i'd been trying to really emphasize that all buddhists theories are you know the point of them
is is is
how practical there
the point of them is how to practice them
because you know how practical are these teachings in terms of relieving stress hence and suffering in the world
but there's another part of but but people who are taking care of the teachings which have which really need to have practical application some of the people and i think you people can join this project also need to look at whether the teachings even if they seem to work still do they
have logical consistency either internally consistent
are they intellectually clear
are they substantive
is what somebody said and look at the word substantive because the moon
to me i thought better word would be sound are the are the theory sound
and part of the reason these theories need to be sound is that at certain phases in of human society if you don't have a sound theory someone can can can destroy it big you know can can undermine it because it's not sound even though it works really well
so sometimes buddhist practices which teachings which had good practical application
in certain environments these did they can be really undermined are almost destroyed
it unless somebody can see can show how they're intellectually clear
in india was india during during the time when buddhism was really strong there was a place where some non buddhists would attack buddhists and if they could intellectually
who'd want toward beat em up
the buddhist had to stop being a buddhist
and follow this person who was kind of like the laws that you know the laws of the philosophical world at that time
so you actually had to be able to defend intellectually defend your practice even though the practice is not primarily clarity intellectual clarity
i think to look towards substantive and the words of the first meeting of the word substances substantive is actually that it's something that is in accord with reality
the second meaning is something that it as independent existence
i don't like the word use of a substitute but the first meaning of substantive are teaching should be
are we wish they should be we should find a way to take care of them such that we can explain to people how they're not
incoherent and not in accord with reality
that's another reason for this class is that you can protect this teaching which hopefully is useful
so any yes michelle


no no no the pinnacle rising is not an experience and experiences in pinnacle arising
appearances are dependent core are the pinnacle risings all your despite your experiences arise independence on conditions but the way they arise is not an experience
the way i support you and the way you support me is not my experience or your experience but we support each other to have experiences but our experiences are not the way we dependently call rise together

story said
it includes two different things what are the two different things yeah k right
pardon of
says he's only effect
desperate right
so i explain and say
as the theories
so that susan
lives in the story
a theory
you yeah
that vs
ah so i got out i was with you and you said that you're telling a story about cause and effect
and then the next step i didn't follow
when i'm trying to say
what system horizon lives
a codependent cook codependent arising lives at a different level from what
nice of same thing cause and effect causation
causation a means the process of cause and effect
the pinnacle arising as the buddha's for the buddha's the way the buddha spoke of cause and effect
the with buddha spoke of causation is dependent core rising but the pinnacle rising in in the buddhist teachings sit means the same as cause cause as the same as the process of cause and effect and the same as causation
hard times
face to face
two processes yeah
so causes a process in effect as a process that just say yeah i agree
the in the cause the art the there is already the effect
other way because it caused doesn't have any meaning other than its effect and also in the effect is already the cause
that's why they're that's why both our processes and that's why their relationship is a process
the only thing that exists is a relationship
i don't know but that
because there is a person
isn't it if if you say the only news this is a relationship that that we're excluding the things that are related
so a process includes the things and the relationship
he includes a thing and includes what it depends on and their relationship
and if you have a story about that
and your story can be your story about what you think the buddha's teaching
that stories is is something for you to take care of that story you have a story that i have that's not dependent core rising but that is a dependent core rising
the stories you have about causation do arise by causal process
so we do have stories about causation and we and good to take care of these stories
and realize that everything you have is actually
a story of causation
yeah like a color
it's a story of position

that says
that's the story behind the story
based managers
said the story
i didn't follow that
nothing actually exists nothing actually exists things only dependently exist
there's no actual ultimately existing things saved his life
but there is colorizing exist these that's the only kind of there is
no it's not that's not a story but we had stories about it
and our stories of bottom are basically i are the stories we have a universe are really stories about causation
we're trying to learn that you know my story about you
he's actually a story about the causation of you because there's not really a you other than all the new depend on and i actually include all those things in my story of you but i can lose track of that
and think i'm talking about something that's not a comic formation
because i ignore dependent call rising if i don't ignore dependent or arising then it's not really a comic formation anymore
then it's a dentist story
then i'm meditating on dependent or arising
when i remember that
say again

it's it for example during the ceremony of
i'm practicing good deeds and and avoiding harmful deeds that said practicing that way during their practice that ceremony
that that's a way to realize the teaching
the teaching of the teaching of for example the teaching of what he call them practice good and avoid evil
by practicing good in avoiding evil you realized that the teaching of practicing good and avoiding evil
when you do that you start to realize oh what's good
minister world's to pinnacle rising therefore
it's emptiness
so by practicing good i get to meditate on and selflessness and so on but you have to do you have to do the practice
in order to really realize what this teaching is
and yet to do the practice in these very kind ways otherwise you'll start dwelling in the practice and they've been in the practice than the pract than you get distracted from the practice because you really back into dwelling in storytelling without realizing that you are
if you're very kind about these practices
you know like if you're if you're practicing good what if you think about practicing good yeah that's sounds good but with practice good kindly don't practice good an overbearing way
don't practice good in a in a harsh way practice it gently
and you would practice it gently and kindly if you if you saw that good was
you know empty of good then that's the way you practice good he practised very gently because you'd realize that you had me very gentle with something that you can't get hold of in order to practice it so you'd be taken care of these practices it
our ungraspable he'd be devoted to ungraspable practices
but if you're very gentle with practices you start to realize oh
there's nothing there
other than everything it depends on
here's team
he said we'd determinism
buddha's teaching
you were talking about some theories how do you sing the week determinism fits too
the contemporary view of science that everything is just a probability function the potential of
how does he goes with that
i think it goes very well with that and
this that the the basis of the study of probability theory
would be compassion
in order to make it go well with the buddha dharma
can you put that in another
for example you would be gentle with the probability theory you wouldn't be overbearing about it you will be a patient with it you would be calm with it and you would act in relationship to it in such a way as to not become attached to it
if you if you were not if you were not lovingly studying probability theory then the probability theory
wouldn't bite by its own nature be compatible with buddha dharma
but if you do study and lovingly without dwelling it then it will be compatible with bodhidharma
like any other thing
now you say is it is it more compatible then other theories you know like that
in a way yes
mentioning the south
in that respect it it is good now
in that respect it is more
is more conducive to you know supporting kind of direct way
the pinnacle rising
he's got a frog confuse lastly

dial strict determinism with reaction yes well it seems like substance why i'm even talking about determinism
talking about
actions and intentions
as as opposed to
your actions or intentions might
he would be gone
regard with what
it seems like you're louis the sphere of what you're talking about to to
human activity almost to the activity of been
where we are focusing on on intentional activity yes right and still like by just focusing on that to be a kind of clicked he will of course things in a sense would be a weaker
in their determinist because you're talking about other kinds of factors that could be involved
was a you're only as living to sphere yeah in the in the in in this realm we need to make the determinism weaker otherwise the practice is meaningless because if his strict determinism then our practice would be determined to
so we would just always be completely determined and they'll be no point to practice anymore and i was just reading something i realized that i was his readers to me and i have text about the evolutionary theory
can i see something before you want can remember watching as they can you remember what you say yeah can you remember if i stop you know
so again the buddha right off teaches right view is action has consequence he said that he wants to get that message across then he backpedals for many many years after backpedaling on that but keeping that out there action has consequence and then backpedals action has consequence don't
you know be loving towards that statement do not attached to that a statement keep listening to that statement i'm gonna keep saying it but then i'm a retro say them say be loving to that don't attach to that
go ahead tom john and i just read a guy's pretty do a philosophy of biology he's in contrast with physical sciences he says in the physical sciences people really use the term law because excuse me kinds of thing about the word law or law k
this is also called the lot dharma means law one of the means of diamonds law this is the law of cause and effect this is a law dependent pinnacle rising okay but again we we take that word law probably law probability probability theories laws of probability we take that to mean some
i'm going to be loving towards the law is not the way things always are the law is the way things
somewhat usefully sometimes are the law is a path of inquiry this is place to pay attention
and it's the same and science actually but some scientists forget that they forget that the laws are not
and again probability theory some people think the probability theory is a law rather than a very fruitful path of inquiry
alors a story but it as and a useful story to study not a store i started to believe that it would be useful to study not a story to believe and hold on to be overbearing and attached to and okay so it's not all scientists will see laws
okay good say that
biological theory they can get away from idea of to get into the idea of theory or concept is a gentler kind of this is week or thing
because he says that it deals with more complex systems we've kind of for your dependents and any kind of essentially says something like go
the response of a complex system is virtually never strict response to a single that stringent back but rather a balanced response to several factors
and then resold the process of compromise between several forces and the study of causation so biologists must all always be aware of this potential world
i don't know it reaches it does it make sense to me but i also think that some people in the physical sciences also see the laws as paths of questioning not quiet pass are being done
so it depends on the site we have a wide variety of science from new issue
yeah and maybe even newton was in a more open minded than he dared to let us know
because he he he may be wanted to be
you know the most greatest scientist fall time and he thought they'd better not tell people how open minded i am a bot what i just discover

okay so did remember those trolls links the next time we'll we'll talk about them a little bit a try to apply this this loving added to this loving way of study to the basic teaching of this
of up dependent core rising
since i was late there was a traffic on the richmond bridge i mean there was a in richmond bridge
but i wasn't in the accent directly just indirectly so i i got here not solid to some of you run into that
did you see it

so again i thank you for year on great faith in the buddha's teaching please don't dwell on it