Causation and Non-Self 

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and there's is a famous presentation called
dependent core rising
in twelve
limbs or twelve phases
and sometimes it said
depending on ignorance there there comes to bear there arises comic formations
depending on karmic formation
there arises
consciousness depending on consciousness there arises name and form
depending on name and form there arises six cents doors depending on six cents doors arises
depending on contact there arises feeling or sensation
depending on sensation there arises
depending on craving there arises
clinging depending on clinging there arises
becoming depending on becoming their rises birth
depending on birth there arises old age sickness
death lamentation and sorrow
the whole mass of ill arises thus

but as i mentioned last week
the the simpler the the kind of basic form
when i just said could be put are kind of up yeah symbolic form of it would be
depending on x y arises
why arises depending on x
but then if you listen to that than you also hear that this does not mean
that when there's x than there is why
depending on x y arises does not mean
that when there's x y arises
if there are so in this case
we're saying that
ex is a necessary condition for
but not sufficient
which is again to say that
the the relationship has been proposed here is one of
i want of influence actually mutual
but not strict determinism
and so the buddhist saying that if if you want to realize freedom from this pattern that has been described
then you need to have faith in this pattern and you to study this pattern
but faith in this pattern does not necessarily mean that you believe what you think it means when you first start studying it
faith in the pattern of
would include that
the pattern itself also as a dependent arising
and that your study of it is at panic or arising
hex is necessary for the rising of why but not sufficient karmic influence
but not strict determinism not strictly completely determined
and one of the cats that's on the reading list is called the m
in poly mohan need donna ceuta and translated as great

and in this in this discourse
the buddha works from effect to cause at the beginning

he works from the point of view of what arose independence on something else
how many have you read this the sitter
this mahony down sit down
can you is unknown
you can get it on the internet
through how to get it on the internet
how'd he get his own causation
then google the name
so at the beginning of the scripture it says and thus i have heard at one time
on one occasion the blessed one was living among the gurus now the gurus have a town named come on saddam which looks like get out
ah sex good com good dharma
our good dharma sex or something
kind of a surprising name
their venerable nanda approaches the blessed one and on arrival having bowed down to the blessed one said to one side
i am
can't help myself i have to mention that you may have heard that the buddha
kind of discourage the practice of rituals and ceremonies but here we we observe a ceremonial event
at the beginning of the scripture namely that the boot is attendant
at the first of all the buddha was sitting ceremonially sat down and then
and then a nanda ceremonially approached the buddha and bowed to the buddha and set to one side which was the ritual thing to do and as he was sitting there he said to the blessed one it's amazing lord it's astonishing
how deep this dependent core rising is
and how deep
it's appearance and yet
to me it seems as clear as clear can be
now when he said that
the you you could think he meant ah he's referring to the buddha's teaching of dependent core arising
that he's heard the buddha teach and now he's saying that this is an amazing teaching
but clear is clear can be to me
but i when i read it just now i thought he when he said dependent cauterizing he also could be referring to the dependent or arising of him studying with the hood with the buddha
the pinnacle arising of
being with the buddha

the dependent core rising of for example no craving
and no clingy
and no becoming a no birth and i know death
lamentations on
i just thought maybe he was referring to that when he said how
when you say how
amazing and a standing standing and deep this dependent core arising this dependent arising of what we're doing here right now which is you
the buddha obviously the buddha although the buddha's teaching that
depending on craving those clinging
and so on the buddha
ah is not craving
and the buddha is not clinging that's the that's the buddha that dependently core rising there
in the seated posture and a nanda
maybe is joining this amazing dependent core arising
with his teacher
but he also could have been with referring to this sir
to this formula that the buddha used to teach how to be with each other how to be together with each other in this way
so the buddha is with us
with compassion
but not craving and not clinging with us and therefore the buddha is at ease in teaching us how to be at ease
the buddha is not clinging
and thirsting
and craving
in the teaching of us did to us of how to not crave and claim crave in cling
that makes sense to you
but that's the way would be with the buddha with for students
and the students might feel this this dharma which this dharma of being together in this way
and just be really moved by it and say this is really this is astounding to be together like this
and we can also talk about some of your favorite old stories
but anyway after he says it's clear as clear can be the buddha says don't say that ananda
don't say that deep is dependent core rising and deep is it's appearance
it's because of not understanding and not penetrating this dharma dependent core arising that generations that this generation is like a tangled skin and nodded ball of string
like matted russia's and reads
and does not go beyond transmigration beyond the planes of deprivation whoa and bad destinations
not so when i read i think well you know
be quiet and nanda
don't talk about how great it is to be with me because there's a lot of people
who do not understand this and they're suffering so don't say it don't say how clear it is and how
wonderful it is
especially don't say how clear it is
of course it's clear to the buddha
when they were told him on and not to talk like that nannies than then he says now he's gonna go into the teaching and says if one would ask
is there a demonstrable requisite condition for aging and death one should answer
there is
if one asked from what requisite condition to aging and death com one should say aging and death come from birth as the requisite condition
depending on birth aging and death etc

if one asked is there a demonstrable requisite condition for birth one should say there is
if one ass
from what requisite condition does birth com one should say breath comes from becoming as it's requisite condition

if one is asked is there a demonstrable requisite condition for becoming
one should answer
yes there is
ah if one is or
this teaching
and is therefore
free of the cycle which were talking about
then one would teach this cycle like this
if one is asked from what requisite condition does becoming calm one should say becoming comes from
clean as it's requisite condition
if one has asked
is there a demonstrable requisite condition for clinging one should answer there is
if one has asked from one requisite condition does clinging come one should say clinging comes from
craving as it's requisite condition
if one is asked is there a demonstrable requisite condition for craving one should say there is if one has asked
what is the requisite condition what requisite condition from what requisite condition does craving come one should say craving comes from feeling as
it's requisite condition
i'll stop here may stop her for a moment
feeling is a requisite condition for craving
if there were no feeling
would there be craving

when you experience that
a feeling
you couldn't you you if you're there you would have a feeling of that presence if you were alive
hold your question there john just for a moment
so i just asked
if there were no feeling would there be craving
do you have some other version that that you could have craving without feeling what

let me know if you can think of one
yeah this is saying it didn't say it but it i'm just asking you know we said the requisite condition for craving is feeling since and i'm asking you
if there were no feeling with their be craving
john says if you are in the presence of the buddha teaching is teaching would you would there be feeling if you're alive he would have a feeling
in your if you are aware of being in the presence of the booty there would you would have a feeling
if you didn't have a feeling however
you would be dead
are you wouldn't be a living being
you wouldn't be a sentient being at that time
now if there's feeling than if they're craving
it's not sufficient sats answer to john's question you could be in the presence of the buddha and have this perhaps really deep and moving feeling
and not crave for anything not even not crave to be like the buddha or to be able to teach like that are too
you could be have the feeling in the presence of the buddha like the buddha has the feeling in the presence of the buddha with no craving
so if but if there is no feeling there is no craving
so the cessation of craving is key to this whole process because craving leads to clean
leads to clinging
in the sense that clinging depends on craving but but if you have clinging

do you have to have craving
yeah if you have craving to have to have clean know
and but with the cessation how about with a cessation of clinging to of the cessation of craving
gonna sue

yeah and if you're if you're alive near in the presence of fred you also have a feeling

i didn't quite follow how is sufficient
you said


yeah contact

ah yes
it would be a you know unusual condition because before
before feeling came contact and before contact was name and form and usually name and form nama rupa name and fun is psychophysical situation usually the psycho physical situation
are you going away then
i buy
you're excused
usually the psychophysical situation
involved five aggregates five scandals and one of the sky as is feeling
but here to the the
the analysis the traditional analysis of a of psychophysical setup is that anything that's happening in the psychophysical setup can be accounted for the by by these five aggregates
but it doesn't mean that there's always something to go in each of these aggregates
anything that's happening whatever you tell whatever you would tell and what he called an analyst of this school they would if they would they would be if they they would never you never be able to come up with any that they couldn't put into this five aggregates
however you might not be able to have something in one of the five aggregates as possible
it is it is part of the relief process yeah that that you you wouldn't always have something of this sort so you could actually be conscious and there and there some aspects of name and form would not be there
so let me go a little further back in this because i'm brings up the name and form again okay so

yeah so up
from what requisite condition does craving com
it comes
from feeling but again comes from feeling doesn't mean feeling will bring it
it comes from feeling
it depends on feeling it needs feeling but feeling is not sufficient to bring it about therefore a buddha can feel what it's like to be with you
and you can feel what it's like to be with buddha and we can beat together with together with the buddha with no craving it could happen that the whole assembly
that would be astounding and amazing but we probably shouldn't say so
because why because because there's so many people who don't get it
well let's not get too too excited here and be to yeah to let's not get too enthusiastic about how great it is to be here
with feeling
and no craving and know clinging
but that could happen
but that that actually could could happen and according to these to this tradition it did happen that the people were with the buddha and there was feeling and no craving and know clinging and they were free of birth and death together at that time but be careful
because lot of people don't get on our standards and they're suffering so let's get on with the teaching instead of talking about how great it is
gotta be careful even though the buddha's got a lot of feeling and no craving are clinging he can be a little had give you a few warnings now them
craving comes or depends on feeling as a requisite condition if one asks is there a demonstrable requisite condition for feeling one should answer
there is
if one is as from what requisite condition does feeling come one should say feeling comes from
contact as it's requisite condition
if one is asked is there a demonstrable requisite condition for feeling one should say whoops if one has asked is there a demountable requisite condition for contact one should answer there is
if one has asked from one requisite condition does contact com one should say contact comes from name and form as a requisite condition
thank you lows
it's not an is not in scripture
so this scripture actually it's only going to tell you nine and twelve it's going to skip
it's gonna skip one of them
namely is gonna skip the sense doors
you look at value feeling a shock as you look
the buddhist sometimes taught the twelve links in in terms of to links
ignorance suffering
i don't know if there's any the cases where he at thirteen or fourteen what you could
to say the least you could have more than twelve
you could have innumerable phases we could even have like little game of seeing like a somebody can have a one hundred and seventy five linked one you know and actually actually you if you read further in this you will you will see some more links that are not mentioned classically and so this description is really mentioning nine
the first two are not mentioned and the sense doors are not mentioned we can discuss that more if you want to about why you don't need to mention the cent stores actually we can discuss why on didn't mention anything
you can just sit there with the buddha you know
and cool it you know just field with no craving and you'd sort of understand
but this in this case there's some talk here and we have name and form now
as the requisite condition for contact if one is as is there a demonstrable requisite condition for name and form one should answer there is if one has asked from what requisite condition does name and form com one should say name and for
one comes from consciousness as shrek or that condition
gay now if one is asked is there demonstrable requisite condition for consciousness one should answer there is
if one is as from what requisite condition does consciousness comes one can say catch it has come from name and form as requisite condition
that's the first time in the scripture that that happened would just happen
it went the other way so we're working back guy name and form what his name and form depend on consciousness what does consciousness depend on name and form
and now so another were and that's a basic teaching in in bodhidharma is that when you have consciousness he don't just have consciousness usually
you have some kind of mint psychophysical situation you don't have consciousness floating
it depends on a psycho physical situation
consciousness comes with usually feelings
usually and it usually comes with the body
but not necessarily all the for compliment this or this this name or nama doesn't show the for compliment me if i could never has the all the possible emotions and fit and feelings that you could have
i you do not usually feel it in a moment of consciousness you do not usually feel pain and pleasure simultaneously
if you do that's called neither pain or pleasure
regular pain doesn't have pleasure
regular pleasure doesn't have pain
when you have pain and pleasure together that's called neutral that's cause you can't tell which
in some people would say that sounds pretty good to me i'll take that over pain any time

so anyway that you usually catch this doesn't come up by itself it comes up depending on a body and it comes up with other mental factors
mental factors also do not come up by themselves they come up depending on a consciousness
now this reciprocally or this mutuality that we just discovered for these two forms
it it applies other places in this in this pattern to not just here there's mutuality all over the place
mutuality but also mutuality without determinism
dependency without determinism
thus anon the name and form
as a requisite condition
excuse me does sunanda from name and form as a requisite condition comes consciousness from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name and form from name form as requisite condition comes contact

he's heard that before her it
right contact
no no name informed contact so from name form comes contact now ready from contacts as a requisite condition comes feeling
from feeling as a requisite condition comes craving from craving as a requisite condition comes clean from clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming from becoming as requisite condition comes birth from bit birth as a requisite condition comes
aging death and sorrow

pain distress despair
come into play
such is the origination of the entire mass of stress and ill
and so now next phases going through
again backwards from aging to birth to becoming with discussion with and so on backward with discussion for each one but
i think
i open now for
for discussion
ah lori

what his name and form of something different from birth

name and when you have name and form in some sense you already have had some kind of birth
a birth of what will birth of name and form
rates so birth applies to each one of these are risings
that makes sense
maybe that should make sense before it
go to this wonderful question
she sang come to the birth part of this process oh she thought name and farmers like that because name informers born
i don't know that's why you thought that but name when name and form arises it's born
when consciousness arises it's born
when you're born consciousness arises

well actually it does have to do with an individual that's born but it doesn't have to do with an individual that exists independent of of the causal process
it doesn't have to do with a person in independently existing person
doesn't have to do with that kind of person but it doesn't have to do with an individual body and individual consciousness
but it's a consciousness that living in this the pinnacle rising sphere

the one that's born later isn't have no more specific it's born of the new a new a fresh new clinging
a fresh new becoming
a fresh new becoming
so we see here that actually as possible that feeling could be born and worked with in such a way
that craving would not arise and then the kind of birth that follows from craving would not come so you'd have a living person
who has feelings
arising but no craving arising and therefore no birth of the type of birth that's borne of craving in the type of birth that born of craving is a type of birth that is the requisite condition for
in personally personal suffering and lamentation
now it says later in this text which i'm not going to get into tonight but craving is not only the requisite condition for calling
becoming birth and misery for the for the for the person for the person who is getting into clinging now and craving based on feeling for that person that feeling person now that sentient being is now directing their them themselves into calling craving based on how
having feelings they get into a body and mind that's born in such a way as to lead to aging sickness and misery but they could also be a person who is alive but who's dealing with life in such a way that they're not giving read they're not giving rise
to that kind of birth they would just be giving birth to feeling feeling feeling or maybe not even feeling maybe his name and form hey i'm not i'm not gonna of even see i really feel being with the buddha and went to boot i don't even feel anything
while you're a weirdo some aggressive us are feeling that way but you can you can be that way you can be here and you don't have to crave having feelings but anyway if you've got feelings you can be with them in a way called
so to be with feelings and study causation are taking into account all the teachings about hottest study equalisation you're having feelings but as possible not to have craving and then you can you're not creating this body which is gonna with the troubled now if you have passed if you have a
history of working with feeling in such a way that you've created a bunch of bodies all those are going to have trouble
but right now you can start working with feelings that come with a body and make this new body
with this way of working with it which doesn't go the route of old age sickness and death
unless she wanted to somebody a big favor is your great bodhisattva
so that's nice question thank you
for for bringing that up because this it's a different birth from the birth
it's a birth of this body which is gonna be troublesome because of it's because this birth depends on craving and clinging
but the body that you have when you just come into feeling even if you have some history of bodies like that if you if you come into working with your feelings in this meditative way you start to discover a new name and form
one that's it one is capable of feeling without getting into
into him
craving feeling which goes back to name and form feeling which goes back to name and form and consciousness so you turn yourself back to this causal process as your home base and you stay away from the process
of going into the the creation of a body it's going to have trouble
it's can have troubled because when it ages and as clinging it's suffering
the other case is not really agent you just get new bodies that seemed to be older by somebody standard
you get new bodies which aren't as cute as as some earlier ones you know people like a mood
have you you're working with them in such a way
that does not clinging
and therefore there's no lamentation grief and sorrow about the about the new body that you got which is maybe somebody said would say is older than the one you used to have
but the ones you used to have that he used to hold onto your in trouble for those and you you know but however the trouble year in i should i say you could be in trouble i should say
because it's not your not strictly determined to have trouble from those past times when you had bodies and you clinging to them
when necessarily happen
but if you deal with this present body which has present feelings and present name and former present consciousness this is called a way of being with this freedom from birth and death and in misery
this is the
what you might call quietly
amazing and astounding possibility
but some most of us usually do have feelings and those are to be worked with in a very kind way and if you really kind with your feelings
it's possible to not slip into craving around them
cause you don't you know if you really kind with your feelings
and also maybe get some help with how to be sure that you're paying attention to them
i'm a nazi getting some help to make sure you're not paying attention to them in unlimited gonna like substantial istick way but in a causal a causal way is part of the kindness for the kindness leads to a causal way of understanding your feelings then there's a possibility of not
clinging to them
not craving and clinging around them
not attaching to them so the point of the study of causation you so we want attached to her
attached to our feelings
attached to our centredness are centeredness attached to our name and form
can i talk about that next week
what's becoming
i'd like to focus on this this pivotal place here that in the name and form area dash the feeling part because feelings actually included name and form so name and form and feeling your kind like essential the essential realm of work
and it's kind of the focus of this particular teaching in this text the name form consciousness and name form includes feeling
but the feelings kind of thing when you have name and form he have consciousness when you have conscious that you have name and form their requisite conditions for each other and the feeling part is the first place
when you start to slip into
selfishness craving and claim
before you slip give lots of a kind attention to this basic situation and that door into the habitual pattern of clinging of craving and clinging
maybe like
just let it be a door that you don't use right now
and feeling is the easiest for most people is the easiest of the mental factors to identify
it's in some sense the grossest
and it's a scandal among the five aggregates
consciousness is aggregate all by itself but in terms of mental factors the only mental factor that get to be well maybe not that's not true
it's it's it's if such an important mental factors that it gets to be an aggregate all by itself it's the second aggregate there's physic the physical body and the sense data is first tiger second aggregate is feeling
so mindfulness of feelings
is very helpful if you're trying to be present with your psychophysical consciousness
and try to like live in a psychophysical
with feelings in such a way that you don't slip in the craving
well i
charlie and in linda
maybe lyndon and charlie

you're feeling that feeling dash said feeling sensation sometimes you do sometimes you they'll use the word sensation for feeling
even now yeah but in feeling in this case you usually would mean positive negative and neutral sensation
another word that sometimes used here and his experience
experience feeling sensation
kind of like synonyms
and again and you would think what wouldn't experience a bigger category than sensation and i think if he knew it could be because you could have called call consciousness experience to but
there are some reasons why they do that which i i want to get into it now charlie

it feels like

why see that your your background or standing of quantization is determinism
and again the advantage of of the deterministic understanding of this type of causation is the nice thing about it is
the cause of situation doesn't need anybody to run it
what doesn't doesn't want to have a god or person running this cause of process so the nice thing about the this this take you bring about causation being kind of deterministic
manage but the buddhist not saying that he's has a different kind of causes his causation is not deterministic because if it was
you would never be able to get on this process and it would be no point of religious practice
including including what
is there anything

a sufficient condition

i think that's a good place to and on don't you
so we have several requests for next week becoming is are either any sufficient conditions and what about those first two elements in the traditional out and in traditional presentation of the twelve lengths
and also i will try to bring of like fifteen length thing for your next week two if i can find one okay
so thank you for your sincere presence when i was driving over here i thought
we make a big effort in his class to get together or one more thing i wanted to ask you is that the people who
i don't know what the people who can like run this place they invited they offered me are invited me to do a weekend workshop here so if you would like me to do a weekend workshop here some time they like me to also in if you would
maybe could suggest some if you have any suggestions of topics you'd like to have here let me know
maybe a friday saturday sunday or saturday sunday
that gives that that's one possibility is this class and they offered this there are other room i'm a minute be shown the other room but we can use the other room
and i also found out that there's some that this place is in the lineage of a man named rudy ananda swami rude rhonda
ah who he was also called rudy
his name of rudolph has been p i think his name was something rudolph maybe routing rudolph his last name was rudolph and he had a huge antique business in new york and our first statue at tassajara of first buddha at the toss are altar with from rudy
he and the green gulch
manjushri is from rudy
and and the the torah in the city centre is from rudy's brother arthur rudolph
so we had this site and also i have some some statues in my little house which are from rudy also
so we have a we have a idolatrous connection
with with rudy
in this place that that's why they have all of these nice art is it's part of the rudy you know the rudy a warehouse they all they always buddhist statues so it's kind of nice connection
rudy died an airplane accident
when he wasn't very old
so here i guess to the prisoners to charges places one of his students and and i think he he wanted me to come because i think he felt the he knows if there's a one connection between rudy and suzuki roshi
kosuke or she i think went to his place in brooklyn pick that booed out
so if you have some ideas and you'd like to have it happened let me know i think i'd probably do it because it seems like
might be nice to do just to try it anyway
well we can we can stay overnight here
you know we could camp out in there that to big room now
could have camp out you know and get a little tense
or it could be you know just an hour day but
any suggestions if any suggestions i'm open to
thank you very much
and that you're bringing these books

oh yeah thank you very much