I'm not comparing you to anybody else, but I just want to say that I think that this group of people is, well, just basically I think it's like everybody in the whole practice period is completely willing to do it, as far as I can tell, and it's just amazing and wonderful that you're actually, as far as I can tell, just completely doing it. Again, I try not to compare you to anybody else, but there it is, it's just wonderful. And if we didn't have another day of practice period, it's already a great success that

[01:02]

you've been able to, for whatever number of days, from the beginning, as far as I can tell, up until now, just every day, which is great. I really congratulate all of you, and I congratulate all of you for being with everybody else. I think you've already noticed this, but maybe you haven't noticed it, I don't know, but it's great. I heard the last practice period was very good, and the people were very supportive of each other, and if I didn't know, this practice period would be like that too. Plus, not only supportive of each other, but taking really good care of yourselves, and having very strict practice, actually.

[02:04]

So I thought that I would introduce the next of these three types of outflow that Dung Dushan taught, and that he recommended that we learn how to identify in ourselves. So the third kind is called verbal, or language, or word outflow, or leakage, verbal leakage, language leakage. And the translation that's in the book Fifth Record by Tom Cleary is, it embodies, this

[03:23]

kind of leakage embodies the marvel, but loses the fundamental. The intellect confuses beginning and end. Diffuse. It's a fun word. Diffuse. Diffuse. Confuses. Confuses. Separating. You can collaborate if you don't have to. Yes, I will. I will. I didn't know. Yeah. This is, in a way, this is, in a way, this is the most difficult to understand, I think, most subtle, and in a way, it's the most down to the bone kind of leakage.

[04:23]

In a way, it sets up the other two. Now, the word embodies is a word which also means a substance, or literally body. It can be a noun, an adjective, or a verb. So it could be, you know, substantially, substantial, substance, body, bodily, or embody. So embody is, I think, fine. Anyway, the character body, and the next character is a character which can be translated as wonder, marvel, subtlety, ineffable. So you can say it embodies the wonder, the marvel, it embodies the subtlety,

[05:26]

but loses the fundamental, and fundamental can also, another way to often translate that character, which is translated as fundamental, as source. So embodying, you could translate it as embodying the wonder, or embodying the subtlety, but losing the source, another way to translate it. And then again, the character which is translated as intellect, I told you is the same character as before, this character ki, which means opportunity, energy, function, working. So you could say intellect confuses, but you can also say the opportunity, and then the next, the opportunity confuses beginning and end, or the function confuses beginning and end.

[06:32]

And also the character confuses is also, and that means to obscure, or to be obscure, to be dark, to be colorblind. So it can mean blind, to be in a compound can mean blind. Yes? Is it sort of talking about like how confusing the symbol of the word to what it really, to the intellect confusing, taking a word and thinking that that symbol is the actual experience, but it's not the experience? That's part of it, yeah. That's part of it, uh-huh. Uh-huh. In other words, you, and you could say the intellect, but you can also say the functioning is dealing with this, what words become for us,

[07:39]

and confuse that with something about where they came from, which again relates to embodying the mystery. In other words, the mystery of how words function, you embody that, but then you lose track of their source. So these two statements are somewhat similar. One is you, your life energy, your intellect, embodies the marvel of words. The words are actually embodied, basically, through your mind. That's how they get embodied. They don't get embodied by trees, or they don't get embodied by stars or mountains. They get embodied by human minds, mysteriously, somehow we do this, which is okay. But then we confuse, or we lose the source of the words,

[08:46]

or the source of mind, or the source of this functioning, either way you want to put it. Losing the source of the words, or losing the source of the mind? No, losing the source of words, losing the source of... But what's the source of words? Losing the source of embodying the words? Do you lose how that happens? Well, of course it's all mixed up, right? So you have some source, this character here, like this is the character,

[09:48]

this source here, and this other character, this means, you know, opportunity, intellect, functioning, this means source. So, embodying this mystery and losing the source, the source could be the source of the mystery, the source of the mystery, which is that words are somehow embodied. It could be the source of the function, it could be the source of the intellect, maybe they have the same source. But we can talk about that, but what seems to be happening, what's pointed out here is that around words, this mysterious thing happens around words

[10:54]

for us, and we lose track of the source. Now, one source you could say we lose track of is our Buddha way. And partly we lose track of it when we talk about Buddha way. We hear about Buddha way and somehow we feel like, oh, it's over there. So we kind of confuse beginning and end by that happening. Like the story, this is kind of a long story to throw in here, but I'll just throw it in. This guy's name was his name was his name was Nanyang. And a monk came to him and said

[11:56]

the scripture, I think Avalokiteshvara says that the fundamental affliction of ignorance is the immutable knowledge of all Buddhas. The fundamental affliction of ignorance itself is the immutable knowledge of all Buddhas. Which is related to this thing the condition of being a sentient being is precisely what we mean by being awake. And the monk says, this seems very difficult and profound. And Nanyang says, oh, seems not so difficult to me. For example, there was a young man standing nearby sleeping and he said, see that guy over there? Watch this. He said, hey you. And the guy turned his head and he said, is that not the immutable knowledge of all Buddhas?

[12:57]

And he said, what's your Buddha nature? And the guy went, he sort of wandered off. And he said, is that not the fundamental affliction of ignorance? Which is where it looks like when he said, hey you, the guy just responded, that was it. Who would have done otherwise? The Buddha might have turned slightly differently. Instead of going like this, the Buddha might have gone like this. That's what they say they do. But basically that's the Buddha, right? But if you say to a Buddha what's your Buddha nature? Their mind is split into two parts. What's my Buddha nature? And then run away. It's just the same as hey you to them. Definitely.

[14:03]

They don't tend to run, but you know, shuffle away. So is that like a loaded question? What a loaded question. What's your Buddha nature? Most people would get, maybe not, just by the question. Well, most Buddhists would, but say it to a kid and they'll respond probably just like a younger kid, that guy was probably a young monk. Say it to a little kid and they'll respond just like, hey you. Say it to some Italian guy in the street he'll probably, you know, it'll be just like, hey you. Depends on your tone of voice and stuff if you get a response. But for a Buddhist, when you hear that, that word is a big word for us. So it goes up there and then we lose its source.

[15:08]

So, and then Jim said something to me just this thing about Vicky was saying, it's not so much how we divide the universe but that we divide it at all. So again, here this kind of points that it's by words that we divide. So, whatever our state is, even if it's a word in other words, even if even if the even if our mind and body, even if our state manifests the wonder of the word as long as nothing reaches that as long as no word reaches that as long as that reaches no word there's no separation

[16:16]

there's no losing the fundamental there's no losing the source there's no confusing beginning and end but if anything can reach that, if any other word can reach that word that's manifested now, then there's splitting and then there's this basic confusion, this basic outflow. Can you explain that again in the question? Any word which is that word which is manifesting another source Yeah, here's another story Bodhidharma taught his disciple he said outside have no involvement with objects another way he sometimes said it was

[17:18]

don't activate the mind around objects inside have no coughing or sighing in the mind and then later his disciple came to him and said I have no more involvements and he said doesn't that fall onto nihilism and the disciple said no and he said prove it and he said I'm always clearly observing and no words can reach it so

[18:26]

whatever if there's a word there and it can be a word whenever you're aware of anything it's a word that you're aware of because whenever you're aware of anything consciously and it's in the conscious mind that we divide things whenever you're aware of anything you're aware of a concept a concept is a word a word is a concept if you're clearly aware of it and no words reach it then there's no outflow but if something reaches it there's another word over here that reaches it and there's two words this is about it or it's about something else this comes from some place or this goes some place but if nothing reaches it and it's just simply only itself

[19:28]

and that's all you're aware of then there's no outflow of this type it's kind of like that certainly that will follow from this and if you stop this you won't have a problem with that then you can again put heads on top of your head if you want to if you don't fall into this one yes, Barbara, do you still have a question? so when nobody could answer on the cat story is that an outflow? the fact that they were paralyzed the fact that they were paralyzed yes you know the story where he holds up the cat and he says yeah, Nachman holds the cat up and he says if someone could say something the cat will be safe

[20:29]

will be saved, will be spared otherwise it's going to get cut no one could talk, why couldn't they talk? or that the mind was activated around the object, here's Nachman holding up this cat this cat's life's in danger matter of life and death mind gets activated they don't know what to say but if they just see if you just see that cat you can talk if you just see danger you can respond but if your mind then sees that out there as an object and your mind activates around it or you get involved in it as an object then you can be paralyzed even when you need to speak or inside too you can say, oh I have something to say but it's not good enough this kind of thing but in both cases you've lost track of the fundamental from which

[21:32]

what? from which these words come, where do these words come from? where do they come from? I think I think no, that's Dalai Lama I think that consciousness they come from consciousness I think there's something there before you're aware of what's going on it just seems like all of a sudden you have I don't know, I can't remember the process by the time you're aware of them they're there right then when they're there can you understand the source when they're there? hearing words you should understand the source, so already you're hearing the word, it's there already as you said can you understand the source? what is the source? you get the feeling

[22:36]

like there's a thought there yourself yeah well what did you these are more words folks I mean it's just a sound unless you make something of it so it's what you have to say then yeah but you said you told me you already made something of it that's the situation, alright so you got that situation now I say have you lost you got the mystery you got the wonder you got the marvel moment after moment you got marvels popping off in your mind alright before you know it you got marvels what's the source? did you lose the source? if you lose the source you're leaking every word you hear and not remember the source or not understand the source it's a leak and that leak sets the state for the other kinds and you can work on the other kinds

[23:37]

even if you don't take care of this one which I think is the most subtle you can still work on the other ones and notice the other ones and noticing the other ones is still a wonderful and necessary practice to do but now how about this one can you notice now this what he's saying is in this case emphasizing the setup the dividing what's the outflow? can you feel the outflow? can you sense the disturbance that's caused by having words appear but not know their source can you sense the disturbance of hearing the word Buddha and thinking that's about something if you hear any word and you think it's about something you definitely have lost its source so rather than connecting the word with something else remember to connect the word to where it came from so rather than tripping further on

[24:38]

and having words cause words go the other direction to where words come from rather than have strings of words going out from the word go the other direction to where they come from and also can you notice the leakage the leakage that happens when you talk in such a way that you forget the source of the word you're saying can you feel your energy leak out of you can you feel your cheeks get red can you sense the outflow of when you talk that way can you sense the difference between somebody saying hey you and you turn your head and you don't lose any energy and somebody say what's your Buddha nature and your energy goes out through your feet your nose whatever can you spot that

[25:39]

now you may not yet understand this just like you may not yet understand how you're going to not have the basis for clinging to views how does it happen that you have a view and you cling to it well the key is get in there and notice that there's a view and that there's a clinging notice that there's an opinion and a clinging notice that there's a value and a clinging notice what happens get in there again and again notice that there is a feeling and a turning and being disoriented by it notice sometimes that there is a feeling and not a disorientation, and notice that there is an opinion and not a holding to it. Notice the differences. Notice when there's outflows and when there's not. Notice that there's usually outflows, or once in a while an outflow, or it's been quite a while and there hasn't been one. And also when you speak, learn to identify this most

[26:45]

subtle, I think, type of outflow. Talk until you feel wiped out, and then you know you've got it, and then work your way back. Notice how your energy becomes confused between beginning and end by this one. It's a hint to try to find it. So it's fine to, I'm happy to continue to talk about what this is, but let's not wait to notice the leakage while we're talking about this. And while I talk and while you listen, it could be going on right now. The important thing is, on the road to understanding better and better how this leakage is set up, we should learn how to identify the leakage too. Both of them can come along together.

[27:52]

So again, it's fine to press further and ask more questions and try to understand by verbal interaction what this is, but while you're doing that, try to see if you can experience it, some leakage around the conversation about this and around all conversations. I have various other words myself for what this source is. One of my favorite ones is breath, and another one is life, and also light. But when I say these, I don't mean that the words I just said are it. One way to understand this is that when I say

[29:02]

that, what I mean is that when you hear a word, it's reminding you of your breath. Every word you hear is telling you breath. And it makes sense to me because when you hear a word and you don't understand breath, I think, in fact, you leak, or I leak. Every time I hear a word or say a word but forget that that's breath, I feel weakened. That make sense? So that's why ... no? Well, check it out. Charlie? So, in the same way as we're taking notes, we can sort of feel a hand and a pen or, you know, a paper, and notice the ink coming out as we're thinking. To avoid that.

[30:02]

Sure. Pardon? To avoid, hopefully avoid that outflow, that might help. Or not even avoid it, but maybe to help you notice it. I had another nice example. I mean, there's been several, but there's one that was quite a ... I don't know. Anyway, one I'll tell you about. Recently, it was Cohen, who used to be called Sue Ann, who used to be called something else. Did your name used to be Olson? What was it? When you first ... Sue Ann. You never had a fervor? Anyway, Ms. Dharma gave me this quote from Dogen. Where is it from? Remember?

[31:14]

The one today? The one, this, there is an easy way to become Buddha. Do not commit evil. Rid the mind of attachments to life and death, birth and death. Rid the mind of attachments to birth and death. Okay, so I thought of some examples of that. So the example which is attachment to birth and death is also basically these leakages. These leakages keep us in birth and death, and we're attached to them because we're so good at them. They're our strength. So example number one of attachment to birth and death for me was the Zen Mountain Center candle trimming practice. Even in the process of writing down the example, I had to be very careful. Candle trimming, what was the next word going to be? It's pretty crucial. Anyway,

[32:28]

I practiced, I feel like that's not leaking too much. So here was the practice. I didn't realize this. I mean, I knew they trimmed the candles, but I did not know that it took 20 minutes to trim each candle. I did not know that. I knew that they look nice. The last time I trimmed a candle, it took me about one minute. I went like this. With a knife I did this. That was it. It didn't look like the ones we used to have around here, but that's how long it took. It was a soft candle. I did it right after I used it and let it dry a little bit. But of course, in a big production like this, people can't always do it right after they take them off the altar, so they have to preheat them and things like that, right? So then I also realized that the wax was not being recycled, and we had been throwing it away for quite a while, and now we have many bags full of the wax.

[33:31]

The city center is not making them anymore, and also that there is competition going on between the various centers for who gets it, and also that the Dawans don't like to do it, and they're pressured and developing blisters and stuff doing this. Now, if I heard, if I said, well, it's the one thing in their life that has meaning, let them keep doing it. They love it. I know it's extravagant, but it's like it really encourages them, and I say, well, what can I say if it helps them get through the day? Huh? But I heard that they didn't like it, that it would take two Dawans' whole work periods during Sashin to do the candles, wasting the wax, etc., etc. I thought, hey, this is

[34:34]

time for a fiat. This is time for a fiat. Isn't there an English word called fiat that bosses sometimes do? In other words, they just decide something all by themselves and just say it's going to be that way? I said, let's not do this anymore, okay? And I also called Mel to see if he had any problems. They had these candles. Anyway, there's ways to do this that you don't have to throw away. So that was it. But as I thought about it later, my mind sat at the edge. It was up in its usual place there, and it sat on the edge of what's called birth and death. And I could feel how nice it would be to just move into birth and death about this one. I won't tell you exactly what

[35:42]

it would have been like if I had moved into birth and death around this one, but it was very tempting. It kind of feels like this. It's kind of cozy, and you kind of get in there and you say stuff like, were you really doing this? Did anybody think about this? Is that enough? I can go on, and more words will come. But anyway, I sort of caught myself getting into it, and I thought, stay back, just come back, come on back. Stay right on the edge of that, you know? It was actually delicious just to sort of feel this huge pit. It's endless. You know, it's like the English language is something, you know, and you can pull the whole thing in here, and usually just sort of go out there, you know, and work it on this one. Tassajara candle trimming. Can you see now what you might say?

[36:53]

That was one of them, yeah. Fiasco. Anyway, and someone said to me, don't you know what we're doing? Didn't you know we were doing this? I said, well, I knew the candles were being trimmed, and I saw them. I thought they looked nice, but I did not know. Twenty minutes, and I did not know this stuff was being thrown away, and I did not know that people hated trimming candles. And I did not know many other things it means. I do know that Tassajara is a wonderful place, and people do get into stuff. I do know that, but I didn't realize this one. But I guess what I'm trying to say is I could feel, I could feel the edge of birth and death on this one. I'm not saying, other places I'd probably jump into birth and death, but this one, it was like I was right on the edge, and I didn't actually go in there. I just went, I just sort of, just stuck in there a little bit and then came back. Can you feel where birth and death is on this one? It's right, it starts to, it

[38:03]

starts to be, the little bit of self-righteousness starts to crop up, just a little bit, you know, not just observing, but somehow like, well, I didn't, I never spent twenty minutes on these candles, how come they did? Or, you know, et cetera. And how could they, you know, and how, and how, and all those little, that's birth and death, right there. Those ways of thinking, rather than just nice, rather than just like enjoying, there is enjoying the pleasure of just clearly saying what's necessary, without indulging in the stuff around the edge. In other words, you know, it's sad, but give up birth and death, how about it? And feel the pleasure of staying on this side of birth and death, which is

[39:04]

not different from birth and death, it's just not holding it, it's just not jumping into it. Unless somebody asked you to, like you asked me to tonight, right? Do a little bit, so I did a little bit. If you ask me to do more, I'll do more. If you don't get it, you know, I'll spill my guts all over the street, until you get it. That's where the charge comes in. Where? I mean, when you go into the birth and death. Yeah. That's when the charge starts to build up, and after a while you forget that it was optional when you went in there, and that you used to be on this side of it, where you really didn't feel that way, and there was no charge. You get a little charge, and then the charge starts sucking you in there, it's like those, you know, the sinks here. And after a while you forget that you had any attachment ever, and you even forget that you're totally caught. So, that particular story you can see, and I'm talking to myself, right, about this

[40:08]

stuff, and it's with words that I'm contemplating this plunge into this very interesting realm that's got a lot of juice running in it. But there is juice on this side of it too. What do you mean by juice? Vitality. But it's a vitality that doesn't move around, it just keeps popping up again and again. What does that juice look like? Hmm? You show us the juice. It has no marks other than whatever is happening, whatever speech is there. And there's a kind of satisfaction in it, not necessarily by you saying, I'm satisfied, but rather a satisfaction that allows you to continue to practice it and not need to resort to certain other forms of indulgence.

[41:11]

And if you think about it, you realize, I must be getting something out of this in order to not slip into these other ways. If you think about it, you could infer that you're happy. Well, like you're having a conversation with somebody and you're just straight on talking to the person, you know, and you notice you're not veering off into any kind of indulgence, and you notice that you're able to continue the conversation. And you notice, I'm not talking about yet that you notice that you're not getting tired by the conversation. That you might not notice right away. But you might notice that too. You might say, I've been talking quite a while now and I haven't gotten tired. I also haven't got energized. I haven't got inflated or deflated from the conversation. And yet I'm able to continue. I'm getting nothing out of this conversation. I'm not saying anything bright or stupid

[42:15]

or clever. I'm just responding. And if conditions arise so that I say something clever, that will happen. But I'm not setting it up that way. And my energy is staying pretty even. And if you do that for a long time, you might say, well, maybe there's something that's sustaining me here to continue this, even though I'm not getting my usual jollies out of it. Then you might also notice that you're also not getting your usual headaches and drainages out of it either. You might notice that also. And that might make you go, it's kind of nice. Or another way to put it is that in a way, I don't know if this is true, I just say this, but in a way I feel like getting off addictions has something to do with doing something else that's satisfying. Just to hold yourself away from it and try

[43:16]

to control yourself. And I guess that can work for a while, but it seems like if you're doing something that's satisfying, you can drop old habits that you still might want to do. But if there's some satisfaction, you can put them aside, besides the fact that they may be a bigger kick than this one is. This one doesn't have the leakages. This one's kind of cool in a way, but it's vital too, because you can't keep it up if it's not vital. It must be vital. So it must be vital, so you have to make it vital somehow and realize its vitality. Or the other way, if you can continue it, you can maybe say, well, maybe there's some vitality here. And remembering the Source, understanding the Source when you're talking, helps you be able to talk without jazzing up anything that you're saying,

[44:21]

just to say what you have to say. The Source of what you're able to say is completely sustaining you, in fact, isn't it? And it's also releasing you from what you're saying. Not taking away your responsibility, but whatever responsibility you have at the moment, you're released in the midst of having that responsibility. It's not you're released from the responsibility, you're released through the responsibility. You're released through the word, by realizing the Source of the word. Dependent co-arising. Another name for it. So, but again, continuing to notice the outflows in lieu of

[45:22]

being able to understand the Source. Those two go together. Catching the outflow around words, or understanding the Source. Understanding the Source, there's no outflow. Spotting the outflow when you don't understand the Source, when you've lost the Source, that's very good too. Just like in this example, I could sort of feel, indulging in language and playing games with it in certain ways, which, you know, have all these qualities which I just hinted at. That shadow implies some light back here, which doesn't belong to me or anybody else. Well, I don't get anything out of it, I don't know where it is or anything, but it's right there, that light's making the shadow over here. And this light is not someplace separate from the shadow. The shadow goes along with the light. You never have this light without a shadow. Right? You never have a shadow without a light.

[46:29]

One side is illuminated, the other side is always dark. Yeah, it's kind of like... A equals A, and A does not equal B, and to go over to the realm where A equals A and A does not equal B, and forget about the fact that A equals A means A is not A, that's moving towards birth and death, which we're very comfortable with, and we have all kinds of fancy tricks to do. And it's so, you know, it's immediate gratification before you get punished by the people, if they ever hear what you're thinking. Or not even the people, you just lose your energy, you lose your vitality

[47:36]

when you move away from the realm of A equals A, and it means that A does not equal A. You move away from that realm into the realm where A equals A and A does not equal B. Move into that realm. Tassajara candle trimming practice is like this, and it's not like that. Tassajara candle trimming practice is like this, and that reminds me that Tassajara candle trimming practice is not like this. That's the light. Just staying there with Tassajara candle trimming practice is like this, just staying there with that and let it be like that, that's remembering the source too. That's understanding the source. This word is just this word is understanding the source. You stay with it and remember that this word is not this word.

[48:42]

So, I would say it's not exactly that this word is not this word, it's the source. I would say the source is more the fact that this word is this word includes that this word is not this word, that's the source. And then here comes this marvelous thing called A. And then right there you can stay with that or you can manifest the marvel, get all caught up in the marvel and lose the source and then your energy gets all confused. And hopefully it doesn't cause too much trouble but sometimes it has to cause a lot of trouble in order for us to get the old message. At this point we could continue with this

[50:01]

or we could turn over to look at the Three Treasures a little bit from Kyojikai-mon. Do that a little bit tonight before we stop. So there's some little bit of discussion about that. What are you feeling? Switch over now? Is enough on this for now? This is an ongoing thing so please practice it, study it, see if you can spot this stuff. See if you can notice these things in your life. And then we can, you know, tell your friends about it. Tell your friends when you catch yourself and when you stop yourself from going too far and tell them about it. Okay, so looking at Kyojikai-mon then. Page 101.

[51:20]

At least page 101 on the paperback, I don't know, but I think it's the same. Okay, this translation of the Kyojikai-mon that you have, I'm sorry, it's not quite as I would have liked it to be because I was trying to get it copied out by hand for Vicky to type to send off the Tantra so you'd have it back yesterday. So it's a little bit different from what I would have wanted, but maybe that would be nice because then you can see the difference between what it was in an earlier translation and what I would like it to be, or what I feel is a little bit better. Okay, so... Should we just read these? So... Okay.

[52:57]

Okay. Okay. Okay. Repentance has been done. And there's a very nice section in Kadagiri Roshi's book, Returning to Silence, on repentance,

[54:42]

which is nice to read. So after repentance it says, Next one should take refuge in Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. And the triple treasure has three kinds of merit and virtue. They are called a one-body triple treasure, a manifested triple treasure, and I say the abiding and maintaining triple treasure. Literally, it's abiding and maintaining. This term abiding and maintaining is actually the name for an abbot in a Zen monastery.

[55:54]

And also, in describing a teacher in the Lotus Sutra, they say, the teacher abides and maintains in the Dharma. There's always that formula repeated over and over again, those two characters, abide to live in and to maintain. Is that maintaining the Dharma or maintaining oneself in the Dharma? Well, in the Lotus Sutra, for the teacher, talking about the teacher, abiding and maintaining the Dharma. In this case, it's abiding and maintaining the triple treasure. So it's the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, and we'll have these three meanings. Each case will be different, we'll see. Okay, so the first one, Anyadhara Samyak Sambodhi is called the Buddha treasure. Its purity and freedom from dust is a Dharma treasure.

[56:59]

The virtue of peace and harmony is a Sangha treasure. So a simpler way of saying this is, under the one body triple treasure, enlightenment, awakening, is the Buddha jewel. And purity and freedom is a Dharma jewel. And peace and harmony is a Sangha jewel. So you can see what it says there in your translation, I think. And for the next one,

[58:03]

the next one, you have realization of Bodhi is a manifestation. In his manifestation, he is called the Bodhi treasure. A change in that translation is, manifesting verification of Bodhi, just manifesting verification of Bodhi, manifesting verification of awakening. That's the Buddha. And then that which is verified is a Dharma. And those who are learning Buddha and Dharma is Sangha. And then for the next one, I have not a big difference,

[59:19]

but it will sound quite different. What I translate it as is converting celestial and human beings. I'm sorry, what was that word? Converting celestial and human beings. Instead of edifying, converting. Sir, are these Bodhi translations? The one that we have, and some of the others that you have. The one you have is a combination of mine and I think maybe Kadagiri Rishi's. So you have both edifying and converting. I think that converting is maybe more literal, edifying maybe somewhat interpretive. So converting celestial and human beings. Appearing in vast openness of being.

[60:20]

Or appearing within dust. That's the Buddha. Under the heading of abiding and maintaining. Then, next is being transformed into the ocean storehouse. Or being transformed into scriptures and thus converting animate and inanimate beings. That's the Dharma, under this heading. Scriptures instead of celestial beings. Being transformed into the ocean storehouse. Or being transformed into the scriptures and thus converting animate and inanimate beings. That's Dharma under this heading.

[61:23]

And the last one is the same, pretty much. Relieving all suffering and being free from the house of the three worlds. That's what it is. It's not poetic license, it's poetry. It says that, it says shells and leaves. It's in Chinese. Okay, so going back here and discussing it a little bit. Let's take the second one first.

[62:28]

The manifested triple gem. So, manifesting verification of awakening. That's Buddha. Under the manifest triple jewel, Buddha. So, there's a manifesting of verification and then there is that which is verified. So, there's something which is verified. That's the Dharma. The truth is what's verified. The manifestation to make verification manifest is the Buddha. Okay, see the difference? The Dharma is what is verified. There's something that's verified or realized or proven. It's like proven. Like in that story where Bodhidharma asks his disciple Huika. Huika comes and says, well I have no further involvement.

[63:33]

And he says, does this fall into nihilism? In other words, does not further involvement mean just sort of like, you know, staying away from the triple world by sort of running away from it, falling into nihilism? No, I'm not falling away from this pit into another pit. He says, no. He says, prove it. And he says, what did he say? He said, I'm clearly observing and so on. That was his proof. He proved it. He proved his awakening. He verified his awakening. And he manifested his verification by talking that way. What did he verify? What was verified there? Dharma. The Dharma is what he verified by talking that way. So his manifestation in that case, by that speech, was Buddha. What he verified was this ineffable, ungraspable thing called the Dharma.

[64:37]

No. The Buddha is not exactly the activity. The Buddha is the verification. Is the manifestation of verification. It's two things. It's not just activity. It's not really activity. They didn't say activity. It's something. It's some manifest. It's actually something that manifested in the world, which is a verification of the truth. There's a truth and it can be verified and manifested. And those who study the truth and also study the manifestation of verification of truth, that's the manifested Sangha. Those who study both the truth and the manifestation of verification of the truth.

[65:50]

They study both those things. They study Buddha and Dharma. Now, of course, mostly we study Buddha because he can't really study Dharma in the sense of light. It's nothing to see. It's not manifested. But still we try through the practice, which the manifestation of verification taught, which is about this truth. Mel told me about this wonderful conversation he had with his little boy, where they sat down. My girl is much bigger, so it's a little bit trickier. They had two daughters. One's 15 and one's 23. The 23-year-old, I think, would sit down and have cookies with me and discuss Dharma. Anyway, so they sit down and have cookies and he talks to them about Dharma. He says he likes it. So he said to him, what do you think is the most important thing?

[66:54]

And his kid said, Buddha. He said, I don't think so. Or Buddhism. He said, I don't think so. I think the truth is most important, Mel said. Anyway, it's kind of nice to have a wonderful conversation with the cookies and everything. And those who study this ineffable thing, you know, who go through these Dharma gates, right? You vow to enter these Dharma gates. These Dharma gates are ineffable. Where are they? They're on everything, right? Everything is a Dharma gate. What makes it into a gate? It's very subtle. We study everything. And we're looking for the Dharma gate of each thing. And we also study what Buddha is,

[67:55]

because Buddha is the manifestation of verification of all these Dharma gates. That's the manifest triple treasure. Yeah. I mean, that's me talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, take away the nice feeling. Just as when you just say something. That's a Dharma gate. Whether you know it or not. Later you may say that was really a nice feeling. But you may not. You may say that was really, you know, you can fill it in blank. But it is very satisfying to living beings when they just say something. That's very satisfying. It makes them willing to go on just doing that.

[68:58]

Because it's kind of like... In fact, you are supported to be that way, and you realize more that you will be supported to be that way, and you don't have to be another way. And so you avoid all kinds of misery, thinking that you have to do more than that. So then it gets to be kind of like a nice feeling. Maybe you can say that. Yeah. I don't know what to say. I certainly don't want to say no. I'm sure someone here will be willing to say yes.

[69:59]

So there we are. Yes? I'm not sure how to phrase this question. I'll try. In repeating this phrase, if you could just say something, if you just say these words and take away the nice feeling, it comes to my mind, was you've been able to just say a statement, but the statement has the quality of... sounding charged. A statement that's self-righteous. If you're just saying a statement that's self-righteous, then is it... anything but just a statement? If you make a statement, and it's self-righteous,

[71:02]

the fact that it's a self-righteous statement includes that it's not a self-righteous statement. Okay? That's okay. If you clearly observe, in other words, you're completely one with the fact of saying that thing and that it's self-righteous, you notice the outflow, and you notice that it's a statement, plus you notice the self-righteousness, and you're released from the statement and the self-righteousness. So noticing the outflow is noticing, in fact, the setup of an outflow, and the fact that an outflow is an outflow includes the fact that the outflow is not an outflow. So you're liberated in that occasion, and that can become a dharma door. When I say that, I don't mean you have to get rid of the nice feeling either,

[72:05]

that's just extra, you don't have to say that part, that's what I meant. But if it was there, then clearly observing would be to be completely with that. And that wouldn't necessarily be an outflow, it would just be something, another thing, actually. Okay. Then I kind of feel, again, the first one is for me the most difficult one to talk about, so I'd like to go to the third one. So dharma, I mean Buddha, under the abiding and maintaining, it doesn't say, I mean literally it does not say Buddha is this one who converts these people. I'm not saying that's not true, I'm just saying that's not what it says here. It doesn't say the Buddha jewel is that somebody converts these beings. It says the Buddha jewel is the conversion

[73:09]

or the converting of the beings. So it's not like this person's walking around, that's a Buddha, walks up to somebody, and this person converts the person. It's that somebody's walking along, and they, you know, touch her on the head, and she's converted. The conversion is the Buddha, not the touching on the head. Touching the head is part of the setup. But the Buddha actually happens when she's converted. That's the Buddha. For a human or a celestial to be converted, all right. Could you say the fact of converting? Did you do it? No. So it's a verb. Buddha is a verb. No, it can be a noun too, the conversion. Then you're talking about

[74:11]

the actual activity of it. If you said the conversion, that wouldn't happen. Conversion can be in the present. The conversion of beings is Buddha. The converting of beings is Buddha. That's what it says here. I think conversion and converting both are nice. And then it says, that's part of it, then it says, appearing in vast openness of being or appearing within dust. That's another part of it. So appearing within dust is what? If she gets converted, you can see it in the dust. Where's the dust?

[75:12]

Huh? Yeah. No, not outflow. It is... It's outflows if you see the dust and forget the source of dust. Outflow is basically the objective world, objects. Dusts are basically objects, which are, you know, what you see in their words. So, but it can appear. The conversion kind of... You can see conversion. Something you can see in the world. In the world of dust, conversion happens. That's part of the story of Buddhism. It's not all happening in vast openness of being, but it also happens there. And that's the part that we don't usually talk about so much in the USA branch of Zen. But it's saying here anyway that there is and you could say there... You could also say the Buddha appears in vast openness of being,

[76:16]

or the Buddha appears in the dust. Right? But in this case, what is the Buddha that's appearing is the conversion of beings. Now, if you see a whole bunch of beings converted, then what you do is you take... you add them all up and look at the... try to find the middle of them and there's a Buddha there. Oh, the Buddha's sitting in the middle of a mass of beings that have been converted. That's how you're going to locate it. But really it's... Really what the Buddha is, it is the conversion of the beings. Right? That's how you... That's what it really is. So... And it can appear in the dust or it can appear in vast openness of being. Not in the dust. In other words, it can be something that you can't see. Beings can be converted and nobody can see it because it's not in the dust.

[77:17]

It's also not the opposite of the dust, namely it's also not just subjective, which is part of the dust... The dust scene is the subject-object scene. So it's subjective or objective, basically the same realm. But there's another realm which is not subject-object realm and beings are converted there too. That's part of what is being said here, which is... That probably we could discuss quite a bit, but not tonight, maybe. But I just want to say something's been opened up here. This is something we don't usually talk about, which is being pointed to. As beings converted in vast openness of beings, not in the realm of subject-object dust. And that's part of the Buddha, what the Buddha does. And all the Tamastaka Sutra stories come partly from this kind of vast openness of being kind of stuff. Oh, excuse me.

[78:22]

Next. Yeah, I was... I'm not exactly sure what converting beings refers to. Oh, it means... What it says up above, where is it? Over in the Sangha section, you're relieved of suffering, relieved of all suffering, and free from the house of the three worlds. That's converting. So is there a change in... When you say converting beings, it sounds like they're changing into something they weren't before. Well, they may say so, but sometimes they say what sometimes the conversion is. You know, I got a hand. I got a hand. Or, you know, that one. Oh, I'm so sick. Oh, you're so sick. Oh, I'm so sick. I'm sick. I'm so sick. You understand?

[79:25]

So that's the conversion? That's one story about conversion. I chose that one because it was easy to see that the person wasn't something they weren't before. They were sick before and after, but afterwards they get it. Are they different? That they get that they're sick when they got that they were sick before? No, they're not different. It's just that in the second case, they're confirmed. Second case, they're recognized. They're in the club. Are they different? Well, they may say so. I mean, if you find out you're a man, are you different? When you know you're a man, you say, yes, I'm different. Well, okay. That kind of difference. To know that you're who you are is the kind of difference it is. And who you are is not really anything at all. So did you really change because you weren't something before and you're not now? So how are you going to establish change? Now, some people like, you know, I don't want to, I guess I'll tie you a little bit here.

[80:26]

Now, he says that he was one person and then he had two soul entry ceremonies and afterwards, well, he says, in a way, he says he was different. Well, was he different? Well, yes and no. I mean, he says so, but in a way, he doesn't say so either. But he got kind of converted there a little bit by that ceremony. That conversion by that ceremony is called Buddha, to some extent anyway. He got converted. You got to see it. He's different. How did it happen? That's Buddha. Now, was that in the dust or was that in vast openness of being? Wow. Wow. That's Tao. It feels a little bit like you might be in the realm of verbal leakage. Huh? It feels a little bit to me like you could be in the realm of verbal leakage. The establishing the difference.

[81:29]

Yeah. Right. I would say the establishment of difference primarily will be established by verbal leakage. Without verbal leakage, there's not really any difference. But you can figure out difference and if you believe that, then you're really leaking. But, if I just report to you, that he told me he changed and I just know he's talking like that, then I'm not verbally leaking necessarily. Or I could even have a little dialogue with him and discuss with him and even agree with him about his reasoning about how he was different now from what he was before. For example, now, he doesn't mind if Tia goes to the officer's meeting when I'm gone. You know, that's difference. You can see there's a difference. You can calculate that. But to believe that's actually a difference, that's leakage. And if he keeps doing that over and over, if I keep doing that over and over, you know, I have to take a break from that. Take a little nap.

[82:31]

Have something for lunch. Now try it again. Okay, now I'll try it again. Here we go. One more round. Do you understand? Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Jim. You can talk about this kind of thing and go through the reasoning by which he would deduce that he was different before and after the ceremony. But to believe that story and to think that it was something in itself is to lose track of where the story comes from. And then it's kind of an outflow. So it's trying to place these things Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, in these categories. It seems like pretty fertile ground for the leakage also. At least in my mind right now. Every place is fertile ground for verbal leakage. But this this is like what he called like a miniature golf course set up just to observe verbal leakage. This is a setup where you can get in there and you can watch your mind. Just like this. He brought that up. What's the difference? Sounds like some difference, okay? And you get in and watch the difference

[83:33]

and you watch the mind calculate the difference. Now you think, is there really a difference? Do you believe there's a difference? Do you lose track? So this is a way to see help you see verbal leakage. About what? About the triple treasure. If there's anything if there's any place where we should be able to identify leakage it should be discussing our own stuff, right? Our Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. That stuff is there to tell us find out about this stuff. Learn about verbal leakage. So here they've amplified it now so you can get into it a little bit more. Before that I think it would have been you would have had less opportunity to get in and feel your mind playing around with Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. Now you're initiated into your own stuff. How do you... She wants to say something. What's happening, Pam? What do you want to say? So you're into it now, okay?

[84:34]

You're getting into it. I'll continue in the talks. Okay? There's more. We won't forget these these precepts. We shall continue to study them, right? Thank you for your attention. So here we go. Oh, by the way is this a ten day or a nine day? What's the story? What about Chuck? Chuck! Ten and less Chuck. I'm listening. Okay, so

[85:37]

we're really sorry about this but we're starting a ten day session. We might have to take one day off at the end and convert it into something else. Chuck Davis, our architect might come down here and have a little talk with you about what you want this building to be like and how big you want this to be and what you want that to be. So if he comes then we'll end the session after nine days. I hope that doesn't upset you too much because by then you're going to really be loving it, I'm sure. But the most important thing is to be able to give it up, right? We won't make it longer than... Unless you beg and plead. Then we will.

[86:25]

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