So we just touched on K68 last week. So let's look at K68 again. And also we wrote last week on the board that the relationship of characters that are featured in this case. But Jiaxuan is like a dharma cousin to Xueshuan and Dengxuan. OK? So in this case, the two teachers are Joshan and Shoshan. They're born the same year, basically, one year apart.

[01:03]

And Dongshan also was born in the same year. So they're actually born at the same time, and their teachers are also, their teachers are Dharma brothers. So they're Dharma cousins. And they all come from Yaoshan. Is that clear to everybody, this relationship? They're all born basically in the year 807. What's the name of the Pokemon? His name is Drongza Dachun. Oh, I see. Thank you. So the introduction says that inside the heartland, the emperor is commanded.

[02:13]

Outside the castle walls, the generals order. Sometimes empowered at the gate, sometimes honoring the room. Tell me, who is this? A monk asked Josh on. How is one getting rid of dust to see Buddha? Jyotsan said, you should directly swing your sword. If you don't swing your sword, the fisherman stays in a nest. Later, the monk brought it up to Sirsvang. How is it when getting rid of dust to see Buddha? Zhizhong said, He has no country. Where will you meet him? The monk returned and quoted this to Jashan.

[03:20]

Jashan went up into the hall and said, In the establishment of method and school, he does not compare to me. In profound talk entering the principle, I am still a hundred steps behind Shoshone. So, do you have some thought about what it means to get rid of dust, to say Buddha? Yes, Greg? I stumbled on something in the dictionary that said the image to find out is sometimes used as an expression for

[04:24]

sense data, the material world. Yeah, that's a pretty good dictionary you got there. What's the name of it? The one in your library. Dust are sometimes used for sense data. Sense data means not to sense organs, but to sense data. So that's colors, sounds, smells, touch, tastes. tangibles, but also mind objects. You can sense what you're thinking. You can sense that you're feeling sad or whatever. So six fields, six kinds of sense data. Those are called the dusts. So in China also, dust means the world. And we're organizing a pilgrimage to China now, but we're going to southern China mostly.

[05:29]

Not so dusty there. But northern China is very dusty. The capital is a very dusty place. Still is very dusty, the old capital city of Chang'an, which is now Xi'an. And Beijing is very dusty. So the world's, China's very dusty. And so they mean, red dust means the world. So, get rid of the dust means get rid of the sense data. Is that what it means? To get rid of the sense data? So, worldly thoughts. Worldly thoughts. Get rid of worldly thoughts. And so what are worldly thoughts? What's a worldly thought? Yes. An idea of who you should be. An idea of who you should be, that's a worldly thought, yes. An idea of Buddha.

[06:31]

An idea of Buddha is a worldly thought. Involvement with sense data. Involvement with sense data. That's not so much a thought, that's more like involvement with the thoughts. Yes. But that's very important too. So one of the questions here is whether we're supposed to get rid of all these thoughts or whether we're supposed to get rid of the company of our reaction to these thoughts. And there's some other possibilities too. Yes? Did you have your hand raised, Megan? Would all thoughts be worldly thoughts? Are all thoughts worldly thoughts? Just because they're based on procession, that will take over. Are all thoughts worldly thoughts? If we allow an awareness

[07:44]

A non-dual awareness, if we say that that's a thought, that's thought, then that wouldn't be worldly. But all the different kinds of dualistic consciousness, they're all conventional or worldly. But it is possible to have a kind of thinking going on. and have it not be worldly, but it's a special kind of thinking. It's called thinking of not thinking. It's inconceivable. There can be inconceivable thought, and that's not worldly. What's some other worldly thoughts? What's the quintessential worldly thought? I and you. Huh? I and you. I and you is a quintessential worldly thought?

[08:46]

I and you. Oh, I and you. Oh, yeah, right. I am you. That's somewhat worldly. It's half of a non-worldly thought. The non-worldly thought is, I am not you and yet I am you. That's what Diljhan said when he saw his reflection in the river. He said, I am not him and yet he is me. It's kind of a verbal expression of a kind of non-dual realization. But I in you is kind of a quintessential worldly thought. In other words, I think that you're out there on your own, separate from me. Or also that I'm over here on my own, separate from you.

[09:48]

And the sense data are out there on their own. Those are the quintessential worldly thoughts. So one interpretation is we're going to get rid of the sense data. Another one would be we'd get rid of the objective projection on the sense data, that we would no longer see them as actually out there on their own. But, as I talked to you before, you know, whatever kind of phenomena there is in the world, it has a superficial quality and a profound quality. So, the superficial quality of anything that's happening, the superficial quality is that it's out there on its own, that it's external to the perceiver. That's a superficial quality.

[10:50]

But it has that superficial quality. phenomena do have that quality. It's not like we get rid of that quality. But rather we can also see that the same phenomena has a deep, a deep quality or deep, deep aspect, which is that it's not out there. And it's so much not out there that it's just plain not out there. And that fact is just like not there. the way, it's just totally not there, the way things are usually out there. So we say then, in a sense, no eyes, no ears, well, we also say no colors, no sounds, no smells, no touches, no tastes, and so on. So in the Heart Sutras, talking about actually, in the context of emptiness, or in the context of the profound quality of what's happening, these things actually aren't there. So you could say to see emptiness and to see Buddha.

[11:54]

There's another way to talk about this. Now, once you see emptiness, that also cuts through the reactions to phenomena. So your reactivity to sense data, to the dust, could also drop away when you understand the dusts aren't out there. So this is one kind of straightforward, pretty straightforward interpretation of what's being said here. But they're using this metaphorical, and I actually say metaphorical because other ways of talking about it is also metaphorical, but they're using this somewhat poetic Chinese expression for getting rid of. getting rid of our reaction to our dust, getting rid of our attachments to dust, but also actually getting rid of seeing dust as actually out there, which is like there's no dust. That's one way to understand this. And, you know, we can go with that for a while if you want to.

[12:57]

It's a perfectly reasonable Buddhist understanding of what seeing Buddha is about. Another expression in a few cases ago was, depart from thought or detach from thought and see Buddha. That was back a few cases ago. Do you remember that? Detach from thought and see Buddha. So detach from thought means don't put it out there and grasp it. Or don't grasp what's out there as out there. So in this way you can see Buddha. Yes. Having difficulty understanding what it is to get rid of. Yeah. Well, In entering into the profound relationship, in some sense, we, the yogis, when they first learn how to do this, they actually don't see this stuff anymore.

[14:10]

It's actually gotten rid of. You don't push it away, but actually it's been disposed of in that vision. You don't actually see these things anymore. The phenomena, whatever was there, whatever was arising is still there. The dependent core arising of the world is still there, but you can't see the superficial quality anymore. So you get rid of the dusty quality of the things that interdependently arise in the world. So this seems more process than... It seems to be getting to this kind of proactive quality. Say it again? It seems to process that rather than getting rid of that sense of I'm doing something. Yeah, it's not like that. It's not like that. No. This has to be a non-dual awareness. You can't be doing this.

[15:11]

It's in the process of understanding the kind of which understands that there's nothing out there on its own, then it also understands this awareness is not over here on its own, separate from what it's aware of. So the whole dualistic thing doesn't hold up. There is awareness, but it's not dual. So you can't do anything in this thing. You can't make this happen. Yet, Yet your life can enter into the profound aspect of your life. Your life can enter into the profound aspect of its moment by moment arising and ceasing. This is possible. And this is called seeing Buddha. But again, Buddha won't be out there. Otherwise Buddha would be another one of these worldly thoughts which we're not able to see anymore as out there.

[16:14]

Is it true that either is necessarily in here? No. Not in here or out there. Yes? So, isn't superficial sort of confusion, dust? Say it again? Isn't dust, confusion, a superficial phenomenon? Superficial phenomena are... Profound is right view, perhaps. Profound is right view. Profound is fully developed right. With right view, you can fully see the profound. Yes. And there's confusion associated with the superficial. Superficial is superficial. It's a superficial, but it also means that you haven't really studied deeply, so confusion is still reigning. But in the thorough study of anything, you reach the profound.

[17:17]

You go all the way to the end of the study of whatever it is, and you cannot find anything out there anymore, and then confusion can't function either. But even a little bit of superficiality is enough for there still to be some confusion. Did I respond to your question? Yes, and the other question was about attachment here. Yes? Isn't that what they... I see this case in that reference with the fisherman just cutting the fish. Is that what the sword is doing? Or is it cutting confusion? Or both? Both, I think. If we see something out there and we think it really exists on its own, we can't resist grasping it. It's the same.

[18:19]

It's inevitable to grasp when we project independent existence on something. Our mind immediately grasps it. So when we no longer project this substantial out-there-ness to things, then the mind loses its grasp. So both... both the end of the externality and independent existence and end of grasping. Happen at the same time. When they happen, you know, together. Yes? So, if there is no thus, if there is no buddha, No, it's just that if there's no dust, it means there's nothing out there. So it means there's no Buddha out there. But it's not that there's no Buddha, it's just that Buddha, the kind of thing Buddha is, is Buddha's not out there.

[19:23]

Now, we sometimes warm up to understanding Buddha by putting Buddhas on the altar, you know, and stuff like that, and pretending like somebody's a Buddha. You know, we do that to sort of like understand how we project substantial existence out there in the world, but really that's not the real Buddha. The real Buddha is not out there, but in here. So no dust, nothing out there, that's seeing Buddha. Yes. Yes. So would you say that the worldliness comes from our reaction to phenomena, our long perception of phenomena, rather than the spontaneous words of the phenomena itself? Yeah. Our ignorant response to the pinnacle arising makes what?

[20:38]

Dust. Dust, yeah. And ignorant means this kind of lazy, instinctively lazy approach to what's happening. So it seems like dust isn't even totally in here or out there as something that... Well, dust is totally out there because what's meant by dust is the way phenomena appear to a non-thorough yogi or to somebody who isn't a yogi at all. Some people are in training to study thoroughly, so they're yogis, but if they haven't yet seen, if they haven't thoroughly studied yet, then they still see dust. The dust is a result of the mind. Without the mind, there aren't any dusts. There aren't any things out there without mental imputation of out there-ness.

[21:41]

which means that you're implying inwardness, overhearness. We don't call phenomena that aren't external dust. So another thing about dust is dust gets in your eyes and clouds your vision, right? So everything you see out there is clouding your vision, is blocking your understanding. So dust are just worldly phenomena. But that isn't the way the superficial or the worldly aspect of phenomena are. But phenomena themselves are not necessarily just worldly. Matter of fact, they're never just worldly. They're always also profound. Everything that happens has a deep... authentic quality. Nothing happens that's not actually having an authentic, thoroughly established, perfected quality.

[22:48]

And this perfected quality is that actually its existence is not the result of confusion. The way it actually is, is not the result of confusion. It seems what I mean about the waking people, they see everything, the so-called phenomena, as just spontaneous light, not as dust. Right, but they can, but, okay, so that's part of it. But they can also, the Buddha actually can also see dust at the same time of having no dust. Most yogis can only see one at a time. And they can have, they can be enlightened to the extent of being able to see the way things really are. And yet they sometimes shift back to see the way, to look at the superficial quality of things. There's a picture on the book, you know the book Moon in a Dew Drop?

[23:58]

It's a translation of Dogen's and there's a picture of him on the back of the book, I think. And in that picture, one of his eyes is looking up and the other one's looking down. And one time I was talking to the treasurer of Zen Center, he said, it looks like he's looking at Nirvana with one eye and a hamburger with the other one. But most yogis, I don't know if Dogen was doing that, but most yogis look at hamburgers with both eyes or look at nirvana with both eyes. But nirvana is not out there. In other words, they see non-duality with both eyes, but then they can shift and see duality with both eyes. And so until we're perfectly integrated, we switch back and forth between the two.

[25:03]

which is not that bad, actually. Yes? Does the spider exist in a dust-free environment? Does a spider exist in a dust-free environment? Let's see. Is there a spider there? Dust-free? Yep. It's just that what the spider is is not in the dust-free environment. The idea of the spider and the idea of any externality of the spider is not confused with the dependent core arising of the spider. So that's the perfected dust-free situation. There's still a spider And the spider is still susceptible to being interpreted superficially.

[26:07]

But the spider that's susceptible to being interpreted superficially is not the spider that's interpreted superficially. It's a different spider. And then there is the profound interpretation of the spider, which is there's no spider out there at all. That's smart for me. I understand. You're profound. Yeah. But there is a dependently co-arisen, there's a dependent co-arising or the other dependent quality of the spider in a dust-free environment, and also that, but even in a dust environment, the dependently co-arisen quality or the other dependence of the spider is there, even when there's dust. It's just that all you can see when there's dust is the superficial nature of the spider because you confuse your ideas of the spider being out there with what the spider, you know, how the spider happens, aside from your projections.

[27:19]

But when you understand the perfected quality of the spider, namely that there isn't confusion about this, that what you think the spider is, is one thing, and the way the spider happens such that you can think that and have an experience of the spider is another thing. When those aren't confused, then the perfected quality has been realized. Then when the perfected quality is realized, one can see through the way the spider exists, really. In other words, it exists through dependence on others that there really isn't a spider there. There's just all the things it depends on. So then you realize the profound quality of the spider and that there isn't really a spider anymore. You cannot find the spider. I mean, like, zero spider. But it's not like nothing's there, just you can't find what you're looking for, which is the spider. There's not like nothing's there, because all the things the spider depends on are there for you, still, because you know, otherwise you wouldn't even know where to look.

[28:22]

But looking in the neighborhood of where the spider is, all you find out is what the spider depends on. Now, if you then would turn to look at the things that the spider depends on, which is, you can still sort of sense those because that's where you're looking, is where all this other dependence is focusing. If you looked at any one of those, you wouldn't be able to find any of the things the spider depended on either. And if you tried to find the fact that you couldn't find the spider, you wouldn't be able to find that either. But you can temporarily experience that you can't find the spider. You can experience that, and that's realizing emptiness of the spider. Which is really, there is no spider. No kind of like spider all by itself. That kind of spider... deeply and thoroughly we cannot find. We can only find that kind of spider superficially when we just sort of overlook how dependent the spider is by a superficial take on the spider. But even then you can still not be confused about that and not confuse your idea of the spider

[29:35]

with the way the spider independently co-arisen, even prior to looking thoroughly at the way the spider exists and not being able to find it. Okay? This is like, you know, you get to work on this for a little while to become fluent with this kind of teaching about how things happen. So they say you should directly swing the sword So, what's the sword? Realization of emptiness. Realization of emptiness, yeah. Discrimination. The sword is discrimination. How is discrimination the sword? You know what you're looking at. After you know what you're looking at?

[30:36]

Oh, you have to know what you're looking at. Okay, so part of the sword is you have to know what you're looking at. It's awareness. It's awareness. Thinking not thinking is the sword. Thinking not thinking is the sword. No. Thinking not thinking is not the sword. Well, acting out of that. Hmm? What? Acting out of the realm of not thinking. Acting out of the realm of not thinking. You know, I think you're a little ahead of schedule here to talk about thinking of not thinking. Because, you know, the monk asked Yaoshan, the teacher of all these people in this story, the grandfather, a monk asked Yaoshan, what kind of thinking is going on when you're sitting still? So, maybe we can think Yaoshan maybe is a Buddha. Perhaps. Perhaps. he says thinking of not thinking and the monk says how think of not thinking and he says non-thinking so i think non-thinking might be more non-thinking the way is the way you realize the thinking of a buddha because buddha's thinking

[32:00]

is this special kind that I talked about where the Buddha can simultaneously see the superficial and the profound. And so you can think in this inconceivable way. But non-thinking may be closer to swinging the sword. Non-thinking. Which has something to do with discrimination or awareness Because we have to know what we're looking at. Like, what are we looking at? What are we looking at? In this case, anyway. Oh. Confused reality. We're looking at confused reality? Yeah. we're looking at dust. So we're looking at dust, so we have to have, there has to be some awareness of the dust in order to understand what it would mean to be free of them.

[33:03]

So how does one look at the dust? How is it when you've looked at the dust? How is it when getting rid of dust and seeing Buddha, how is that? He says, you must swing the sword. directly. So what the sword is, Stuart said it's like realization of emptiness. Is that what you said, realization of emptiness? Yeah. Realization of emptiness. Kerry said it's awareness. But realization of awareness has something to do, realization of emptiness means that awareness realizes emptiness. that there's an awareness which is illuminated and understands emptiness. So maybe that's what the sword is, is an awareness that first of all, is looking at some dust and studies that dust until the emptiness of the dust is realized.

[34:11]

That's a dust buster. It's also a ghost buster. It takes away the dusty quality of phenomena or the ghostly quality of phenomena. this kind of vision. And if we don't have this kind of vision, if we don't have this sword that wipes this dusty quality away, then the fisherman can stay in the nest. Yeah. So, I think that this awareness has to be willing not to... not to know what you're seeing, or just awareness without trying to jump ahead. You think that just awareness, how is it that things reveal themselves? If we have any notion of how our life is, how is it that the actuality opens up and reveals itself?

[35:13]

So you're saying that you feel like... What is that I'm reading? Well, you said a couple of things. Now you're saying, what is the awareness? But then before you said, willing to not know. Did you say that? Yeah. And so willing to not know means maybe willing to not know the way you have been knowing. So our usual way of knowing is knowing things as dust, so it would help if you're willing to give up seeing things as dust. Because usually what we mean by know something is know something as an object out there. So being willing to let go of things being out there might be really helpful. to do the work which would then start to you know what does it go palpitate this this rigid way of seeing things so what is what is the way in which you're saying what is the way how can we what how can we see the way things are

[36:20]

Well, can you start by saying that you see things out there? Can you see that? Can everybody see that? Do you see things substantially out there? Where do they go from there? How do you live with that? When I came to class. Mm-hmm. What Liz was just talking about had a real strong message that I heard about knowing things ahead of time. A willingness to not know things ahead of time. In other words, to meet everything as if you didn't already know it. A willingness to give up your preconceptions about things.

[37:28]

A willingness to. Maybe not the ability to, but the willingness to. So I would be willing to give up my preconception when I meet somebody. So then after you are willing to give up knowing about something ahead of time, then once you're right there, then you have to give up knowing what you are in the middle of in the conventional, in your usual way. Give up. Well, first of all, you'd be willing to do what you said, plus when you meet someone, then you'd be willing to give up your preconceived idea about who this is as you're actually meeting someone. You'd be willing to. You might not be able to, but you're willing to. And if you're willing to, even though you can't, then you can do two things. One, you can be willing to, and at the same time, you can say, I'm not doing it yet.

[38:36]

I'm still working with my preconception, but I'm willing to let go of it, but I'm not letting go of it. But I'm willing to. And how come I'm willing to? Well, why would I be willing to when I'm meeting someone? Yes? Yes? I was going to say, lead to the end of suffering. Because you think maybe it will lead to the end of suffering? Uh-huh. And Linda said faith. And faith, what do you mean by faith, Linda? Faith that we are Buddha. Faith that we are Buddha? Which is faith that... There is a name. There's nothing out there. So, faith that there's nothing out there might be part of what would lead you to want to let go of the out-there-ness of things, even while you're still continuing to see things as out there.

[39:42]

What are some other encouragements that might support you to be willing to give up the out-there-ness Out there-ness is one of the main preconceptions we have. What are some other things that would encourage you to give up the preconception of out there? Yes? I like this conversation because I've been thinking a lot about the idea of willingness. And one of the things that I think the reason you become willing to open up to situations may be the experience that when you do, It's easy to see how painful a situation is if you're not looking. But pretty soon the pain, the suffering is immediately engendered by not opening to the situation becomes clear. And even though it's scary when you... Let me give an example. My boss comes in.

[40:45]

He's got an agenda about somebody else who said something. And he's really upset about it. And he's really getting ready to enlist me in the campaign to go after this other subordinate. Something like that. You can really see the pain in his face. You can see the suffering going on here. And first of all, I assume he's also getting frightened a little bit just by the energy that's going on. And that... maybe I become aware of, you know, this energy is going to end up somewhere. That's a lot of real suffering. And so, I don't know really how to stop it. And maybe, I'm not sure what to do, but maybe I'll just not do anything. And just see what's going on here. You don't know where that's leading, and so, I wonder, well, you might wonder,

[41:47]

Well, maybe by doing that, I'll suffer consequences too, or something like that. But even if you're willing to do that, it seems like it becomes, somehow, all the juice gets taken out of the situation a little bit. So, the idea of willingness, I think, is kind of important. And that willingness to open up the situation all the time is, you know, that's a practical application, and it's not simply... and that's a charactesian work. So another encouragement to be willing to give up our preconceptions is if we're aware of how uncomfortable it is to have preconceptions. how painful it is to have preconceptions.

[42:53]

Like, my boss is out there, and my boss is my boss. This person is my boss. And you apply that preconception to your boss, and you suffer, and then you might be willing to say, maybe I could not apply this preconception to this person. I mean, I'd be willing to try that. I'm not doing it right now, and I'm suffering, but I'd be willing to let go of it. And see what... Yeah, and just see Buddha. But then you might be scared of seeing Buddha because what are you going to do if you're sitting there with your boss in your face and forgetting that you're boss? You might get in trouble. Which takes us back to something we said before and that is I think we have to be willing to suffer in order to be willing to let go of the preconceptions which are the source of our suffering.

[44:00]

Now we might be willing to let go of them even though we weren't willing to suffer, but if we were willing to let go of them and weren't suffering, we wouldn't be at the place where they got let go of. They would be released. We'd be over here someplace. Except from the place where they're getting released, that wouldn't do any good. We have to be there at the release point. But I think actually being willing to suffer means you know how to take care of yourself when you're suffering, which means you know how to be cared for while you're suffering. apply to your life, where the holding was happening, was where the pain was, and you're where the pain was, so when the release happens, you're where the release happens, so you're where the pain is not happening. So, this is to mean that we're in the situation, we're in the soup of the conventional world, we're seeing things out there, we're suffering as a result,

[45:06]

we're willing to let go of superficiality, which means we're willing to see profoundly. But it also requires is that we look deeply, we pay attention, that we actually, like, pay attention to things thoroughly, that we go to the end of everything. Because the profound quality of things is sort of like at the end of them. It's like when you stay with them all the way, when you follow through on something all the way, when you get to know something all the way, you see the profound. when you study it not at all or just a little, you don't yet see the profound. So that's why here we have this story here.

[46:10]

Like last week I talked about that case and here's another case. It requires that we kind of like study thoroughly. So, being willing to let go of our superficial idea, being willing to let go of our preconceptions because we think it might be good, because we've maybe experienced what it's like sometimes when we do, when we experience how painful it is to hold on, when you understand the teaching that says that it's necessary to let go of these things in order to understand all this together, bringing all that together makes us maybe willing to, like, study something really a long time really thoroughly like this case like this phrase like this instruction is she directly swinging a sword it's just this one line and then he says if you don't you know the fisherman will stay in the nest but the instruction is that just a sort of threat

[47:17]

That's just more, you know, you'll suffer if you don't. Right. Yes, John? My question is, is it possible to say something about what? Is it possible to say something about what studies? Um... Yeah? Could you say something about it? Could you? So, it's possible to say something about what studies. In other words, I can say that that language is implying that there's something outside of study. Like there's the process of studying, and there's something that studies. So that language, which is endemic to the dusty mind, is that there's something which studies.

[48:26]

But we can't find anything that studies. We can find study. Study will be awareness. Study will be attention. Attention. Study will be concentration. Study will be patience. Study will be paying attention to, you know, any kind of idea of subject-object. Study will be awareness of externality and internality, will be aware of the dusty quality of things. All these things would be the study. So we can account for the study by talking about these functions. But there's not something in addition to that that is... How do you put it? That is studying? There's a what that's doing that. There's not a thing outside the process that's doing this.

[49:30]

It's a process of study. That's still kind of like, that's still kind of what it called, it kind of like, what's that word? Hypostasizes? Is that the word? Hypostasized? It's not hypothesized. It's almost like reifying the process, but it's like you're lifting this ghost up above the process when you say the process studies. You have all the things that are involved in the process when you say you've got this thing called the process, a metaphysical process over above all the activities which are the process. The process is nothing other than these activities. But we tend to keep trying to put something up there. So we have... So like Nagarjuna says, the Buddha has indicated the self.

[50:33]

The Buddha pointed to the self and taught not-self. But he didn't say that there was something that is the self or the non-self. So there is a self, but there's not something that is the self. What is the self? The self is certain continuities in process of affect management. But there isn't something that is that continuity called this coping mechanism. There is no ping-pong ball on top of the fountain. Right. And that there's also non-self, but there isn't something that is the non-self. Just like there isn't something that is the emptiness. Or that there isn't something that is, there isn't something that really is the sword, except that if you talk about what the sword is, like discriminating awareness or realization of emptiness, there is that, but there's not something that is that.

[51:44]

There's not something that is the discriminating awareness which wipes away the dustiness. There is the wiping away of the dustiness, but there's not something that is that. Now, there does seem to be the experience of this wiping away, but this experience is just, again, another dusty thing, if it exists. Yes, entertain one. Could you say that studying happens? No, I say other things happen. In the conventional world, you can say studying happens. That's not marvelous. I had a real question. Well, I thought that was a real question. I'll take it then. My question. Can you say study happens?

[52:46]

Yes. In the conventional world, you can say study happens. That's not the profound nature of study. The superficial nature of study is that it happens. Part of the superficial nature of study is that it happens and then it doesn't happen. The profound nature of study is it does not happen. But that doesn't mean there's no study. It just means study, the profound quality of study is that it doesn't happen. It's like not into like happening or not happening. It's very, very deep and very, very quiet, this profound nature of study. But study, regular old study, you know, superficial study, deep study, you know, Buddhist study, beginning yogi study, all this kind of study, every one of them has a profound quality that's so deep it doesn't happen. you have a superficial quality, or it happens or it doesn't. And if it does, then it's going to later not. And if it's not, if it doesn't anymore, it's going to happen again, basically. So, thanks for the question.

[53:49]

If you need it back, let me know. You have another one, too? Yeah. Okay. The concept of out there, the preconceptions and all that. Yes. Oh, I think sometimes you can kind of leap to the opposite extreme, which is everything is one, and there's like ecstatic traditions that kind of, you know, in other religions that kind of get to that point. Yes. But, I mean, my understanding is that's still not what you're talking about, because there's nothing, not two and not one. Yes, right. So, what is that? Is that just another sort of misconception, another... Is it just another part of the dust? You mean everything is one? Yeah. That's another dust. Excuse me? That's another dust. It's an experience of things being one, which you put out there as an experience of everything being one.

[55:03]

Or being one. Now, the metaphysical principle of things being one, there's that, right? Which we just talked about right now, this idea of the concept of everything being one. That's just an idea we have right now, right? Which you can see is out there or not. You could do either way on it. You could let go of this externality, And then the idea wouldn't be there anymore. Or you can have it be some idea you can be aware of. It's a perfectly good idea. But it's an idea of something metaphysical. Because you can't actually experience this oneness right now. You just have an idea about it. But what about the experience of oneness? If it had that experience of oneness, but if it's an experience of oneness, it's still something out there.

[56:13]

Unless what you mean by experience of oneness is you cannot find the experience of oneness. So that would be like no experience of oneness. But what you'd be looking at is you had an experience of oneness, the one with all beings or one with somebody. You look at that feeling of oneness, that experience of oneness, and the superficial quality of it is that it's out there and you can know about it. You can have the experience. Or even you can take away that you had the experience and you'd say, well, it's just the experience. But if it's just the experience and you study it thoroughly, then there would not be any more experience of oneness because that depends on things. You can't have an experience except by experiences that need some help. Lots of help. And as soon as you realize the help, which is how you locate and identify this is the experience you're talking about called the experience of oneness, you wouldn't be able to find that experience of oneness That would be a perfectly good opportunity for study.

[57:17]

However, that's not usually what people are studying, but, you know, they're usually studying trueness, which is part of the reason why we don't recommend that, cultivate that, because it seems to distract people from studying. Yeah, because it seems to distract people. It's kind of just a little confusing. Like we say, you know, What is it again? The heart that then just says, you know, harmonies of Buddha fields, harmonies of Buddha fields has no harmonies of no Buddha fields that Tathagata teaches the harmony of Buddha fields. Therefore we say harmony of Buddha fields. We don't go around studying no harmony of no Buddha fields. It's too complicated. Just study Buddha field harmonies or harmonies of Buddha fields. Just study things. Don't study the oneness where you can't find them anymore because that's a little bit complicated. But if you had to deal with that, you have to deal with that. Oneness is fine when it happens.

[58:20]

It's a perfectly good experience. People like it. It's no problem. Like you say, it's ecstasy, right? It's okay. But it just seems like in some ways a really difficult confusion is there. Because you feel so good about this confusion that you might not be interested in being thoroughly aware of how it's happening. But if you had a teacher who thought it would be good for you to have some ecstasy, to encourage you to do the hard work of looking at your two-ness, maybe your teacher would say, let's turn on this ecstasy for a while. And you say, oh, I feel good now. Okay, now study this. Feel good? Okay, now study how painful it is for you to feel separate. So I'm not saying that never is it appropriate to use ecstatic experiences to encourage people to do the deep work of looking at the nature of things.

[59:31]

But anyway, the Buddhist teaching is very much about coming to see how things actually are. Which is not what I am. You're just talking about not seeing things out there, right? Well, it's not so much that they're not one and not two, but that they can appear to be one and two, but also they can appear to be totally inconceivably ungraspable. So it's the technical saying of not one and not two. We're just groping here to try to encourage ourselves to be thorough. But again, that has to do with being willing to let go of superficiality, because as you get more and more thorough, you start to see the harbinger of the profound, and you sense that you might fall into it or something. You might become frightened of what would happen to you if you lost your preconceived ideas of what was going on.

[60:37]

So that's why, again, you need to be able to take care of yourself as you approach thoroughness. Okay? Yes. One of the reasons we were kind of chuckling earlier, back there we heard somebody say, shit happens. Yes. And I find that my approach to life is when shit happens, Ever since I've been studying Buddhism, I sort of say, well, shit's really not happening. Well, profoundly, shit's not happening profoundly. But it still isn't cutting, and there's something unsettling that shit's not happening, because it really feels like it's happening. You're not supposed to actually be talking like that until you completely become intimate with shit happening. Nagarjuna said, you should not go on to teach that there's no shit happening before you're completely familiar with how shit happens.

[61:46]

Do you feel like grounded in the shit? Somebody, when I was sitting, somebody loaned me this t-shirt. Remember a couple years ago? They loaned me this t-shirt which had various religions' version of shit happens. Jewish version of it, Islam, you know. But I think that the head thing was shit happens, right? And then that's like the ordinary world, shit happens. The Buddhist view was not shit happens. I think, I forgot what the Buddhist one, but it was good. They were all good. All the different religions were good. They were really good. I think that's the heading was shit happens and then Judaism, Islam, blah, blah, blah. They were great. One was, yeah, shit happens, but you deserve it, you know. So if anybody can find that T-shirt, I'd really appreciate it.

[62:47]

I gave up that T-shirt. What shit? I think maybe that was, what shit? So, you know, maybe what shit is really the willingness to study profoundly. It's not like a what shit and you're out of town, you know. It's like, what shit? Really like, it was really like what shit, [...] what shit. Don't stick your head in it. Don't run away from it. Just, you know, what shit? What [...] shit?

[63:47]

Is that taking care of yourself? And if you keep doing that, you have to take care of yourself. Otherwise, you get depressed, perhaps. Or, you know, you have to, like, soothe yourself while you're studying the shit. So, one story is of... And this is like a story I heard. I don't remember it exactly, but it was a story about Trungpa Rinpoche and I think Khense Rinpoche. They were walking along the road and they came to a cesspool. And Khense Rinpoche said, go into the cesspool. And Trungpa Rinpoche went into the cesspool. And there were turds floating in the cesspool. And he said, eat that one. So he ate one of the turds. Thank you.

[64:53]

And here's the part I don't remember. Does he? And then somebody asked him when he told that story, he said, well... I think maybe he said before somebody asked him, he said, and that changed my life. And somebody said, how did it change your life? And I think he said, I was always happy. At the same time, he was always suffering too. So anyway, it's just this, you know, what shit? How are you going to find out? Kind of like watch somebody else go into this cesspool. There's plenty of cesspools.

[66:25]

There's plenty of situations which are kind of hard to go into, aren't there? And when you get in there, then, okay, now you're in there. Now, you shouldn't, I don't think, I don't think you should go in there because you want to go in there just to sort of like go into a cesspool, though some, probably your teacher should tell you to go into the cesspool and your teacher can be like your teacher, or your teacher can be somebody who's in the cesspool, and say, would you please come into the cesspool? I need your help. Are you sure you need my help? How would it help you for me to come in here too? And they tell you and say, well, I guess that's a pretty good reason. Okay, I'll come in. Then don't go in and say, well, where are the turds? I should eat a few turds while I'm here. I wouldn't do that. But if the person says, we need you to eat a turd, you know, Are you serious about this? Is this some kind of a trick? I don't want to get into self-mortification here. No, we need you to do this.

[67:27]

We want you to do this. Eat the turd, please. And maybe you're not just doing that just to test yourself, to understand what shit is. Eat it. Sit down and eat it. But don't go looking for stuff like that to do it, you know. But there are these situations, aren't there, that we have some, we kind of like don't want to be there and then we get there sometimes for us to get a little bit more intimate with it. And if you're not sure that you're sure, you can talk to some people you respect, you know. Hopefully you have some people you can ask, you know, Dwight, would it be good for me to do this, really? Really? Like, you know, looking at Maya, I remember a while ago, we did this ceremony in the tea house, a memorial ceremony for someone in the tea house, and she said, well, I still haven't received the donation for the memorial service. And I said, oh. And I said, well, why don't you come home and tell them you didn't receive it yet?

[68:30]

So that's just something, it's a little cesspool I suggested she go into. It's not that comfortable to call somebody up and say, well, we didn't get a check yet. Is everything okay or whatever? And then I think she called and didn't get a response. I said, why don't you call again? I wasn't trying to make her do something difficult, but I thought it might be difficult. But still, it seemed like it needs to be followed through on. I thought she'd be the ideal person to follow through on it. Teachers need to have students who will go into the cesspools for them. It's kind of necessary. So, anyway, there's these opportunities to get intimate with the dust. And you shouldn't, like, try to, you shouldn't approach the dust to get intimate, okay? Like, we're studying this during Sashina in the city center, and in the city group in the city center, we're studying the

[69:37]

Kachayana Gota Sutra where the Buddha is talking about these two extremes of annihilationism and eternalism and he says in general the world is characterized by bondage to approach clinging and inclination so the way you get intimate with the dust you don't approach the dust because that's just like That's just like saying, the dust is over there. What's over there is over there, so I'm going to go over there. No, don't go over there. Also, don't go away from it. You don't have to move to get intimate with it. You don't have to move to get intimate with what you think is over there. The only thing that's making it over there is your mind. You don't have to move to get closer to it. You just have to drop the idea that it's over there, and then it will be intimate. But again, you shouldn't grab it and throw it out. So somehow you have to find this balanced way to study, and you have to be thorough about what is the thorough way to study.

[70:48]

How do you become thoroughly intimate with these dusts, with these things that are bothering us? How do we get intimate with it? Who invites us in deeper? It shouldn't be us usually because we'll go deeper in some direction that's not deeper. We'll go in the direction that we already feel comfortable, we already know about probably. Or we'll go in the opposite of it. But somebody else will ask us to go in a direction which might be just exactly the idea we didn't think was deeper or it might be the idea we sort of thought was deeper but we had a preference for some other deeper. So we need to learn how We need to be thorough about how to be thorough. We need to study thoroughly. That's how we get this sword to swing directly. That's one way to understand what the teacher is recommending here.

[71:51]

Okay, and this is... This is... This is one approach. Now, why don't we move on to the other approach? The other way, which sounds a little different. So now the monk says, when getting rid of the dust, The time, it actually says at the time. The Chinese says when, right? But also blah, blah, blah. It's wiping or getting rid of dust time. How is it? And one of the main kind, the main kind of shit is time. Time's our main shit. So at the time of your getting in there with the dust and they're being gotten rid of, how is it?

[72:56]

And he says, he has no country, where will you meet him? So this is a somewhat different kind of response, which is typified in the next paragraph. So what kind of practice is this? What is the teacher trying to help this monk with this time? It's what you said early on, it's ungraspable. And ungraspable. Yes, it's ungraspable. And how would you work with such a teacher? You meet him right on, face to face, slaying the sword. Are you going to go back and get your sword from the previous thing? I don't think we need one. We don't need one. Matter of fact, we wouldn't have one anymore, would we? We wouldn't have a sword in this case, would we? This seems like there's no sword here.

[74:00]

I don't know. A sword is what we used to divide the earth up into countries. Right, but we don't have a country here. We don't have a country, so we don't have a sword. It looks like there's no sword or country. Isn't that a question of sword? Isn't the question of sword? Yes, the response. Where will you meet him? Is the sword? Because it's saying, well, what is this idea of Buddha that you have? And that's the sword. So it's a different kind of a sword from the previous. Was the previous one a sword, by the way? Was the talk about the sword a sword? Or was that no country? It seems gentler than a sword, but maybe pointing towards the sword, but not the sword itself. The second one seems gentler than the sword? No, the first one. Oh, I see. So you feel like the first one's maybe not the sword itself, but more gentle than the sword, and the second one's maybe really the sword. What? Huh? I'm weary of saying that it's really the sword. Oh, okay.

[75:00]

Well, it's good that you are. Putting it that way, but... Yeah, it's a good pen. Maybe this is really the sword. Even though I didn't say that. So that takes care of that. And since it's getting close to nine o'clock, let's just move right along to the next paragraph, shall we? So then the monk goes back to Jiaxuan and tells him what Xueshuang says, tells him what his cousin said. And Jiaxuan said, In establishing method in school, he does not compare with me. In profound talk entering the principle, I am still a hundred steps behind Shershuang. So we have this establishing method in school and we have entering into talk which enters profound talk which enters the principle.

[76:02]

These two different, they're in the same kind of like ballpark here, they're closely related to Yaoshan, but they seem to be emphasizing different points. One's about establishing method and school, having a school. and the other one's about entering a very deep kind of talk which enters the principle. Kind of interesting, I think. So, here we go. Yes? I disagree with Jashon's statement that he was complimenting Shushuang. Yes. But Jiasheng, I don't think, as a teacher, as an adept at establishing method in school, that he was, he worked on principle.

[77:07]

You think he did? Yes. You think that he exceeded most teachers? So you feel he was able to do, he was able to do what he was praising Shi Huang for? Yes. But you don't think he was setting forth a school or a method? No. Or he was really bad at it. Well, he didn't end up with the school. But if you look at Joshua on his teachings, my feeling is that he exceeded almost every, or a great many, and not establishing a school. Yes? I was wondering where we might find Jashant's teachings or maybe some stories about the Boatman. We had a homework assignment last time. Right. I was able to track down the other five teachers. I couldn't find that much about Boatman or Jashant, so I was wondering if there would be leads. It's not in the video.

[78:11]

The building's broken down. What is it called? It's really hard to read. It's really hard to track down. Could you find other stuff on Shoshone? There was some stuff, okay. Where did you find it? I think it was in the old way of Christianity. And there was some, like, short biography, you know, capsules in encyclopedias. Is that it? It was also a dictionary that they sent on the library. I don't know. Yeah, he has a lot of these people. Yeah, and... 55 in the Woodcliffe Record. 55 in the Woodcliffe Record. And also, down below here, there's this interaction between Shershuang and Dongshan, and that's also case 89 of the Book of Serenity.

[79:19]

That's the main case, where Dongshan... It says, at the beginning of the fall, the end of summer, you brethren should go east and west, may go east and west. You must go where there's not an inch of grass. That's case 89. So that interaction between Dongshan's teaching and then Xueshuan's comment is the main case 89. You can check it out there, too. I noted a couple of commentaries that Xueshuan was in the effort, which is 42 and 98. 42 and 98. And you can also find out about Jiazhan in Case 68 of the Book of Serenity.

[80:26]

It's one of the good places. What about the boatman? The boatman? He's out at sea. He's out at sea. He's in fog. Study Yaoshan, too. Study Yaoshan. He's the source of all these guys. And Dawu. Dawu is case 21. Dawu talking to Yunyan. And also Dawu and Yunyan are case, I believe, 89 of the book, of the booklet record. And 55 in this book.

[81:27]

No, 54. Yeah, you're right, 54. 55 of the Blue Cliff. 55 of the Blue Cliff. Yeah, and 89 of the Blue Cliff. And 54 of this book. And Shershon we've seen earlier. Where did we see him? A couple of cases ago. Didn't we? Remember? In the commentary of case 66. Isn't he in there? He's in the commentary of case 66. You know? There he is. So you start with these and you'll start noticing other ones. Like I say, I'd like to actually sometime have a course just on this little group here, because I think that they have a very subtle relationship to bring out Yaoshan.

[82:54]

I think Yaoshan is very important. Okay? So, study long and deep. See if you can go deeper into this story now, what you've got so far.

[83:16]

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