In the Samdhi Nirmocana Sutra there's a discussion about the relationship between ultimate truth and in one translation, compounded things, and in another translation, practices. And the sutra starts with a bodhisattva whose name is Purified Intelligence. Suvisurimata, or Suvisurimati is the bodhisattva's name.

[01:13]

And so this bodhisattva addresses the Buddha and says, the Bhagavan, regarding what the the ultimate, profound and subtle, having a characteristic completely transcending sameness and difference, is difficult to realize. What the Tathagata has spoken so eloquently in this way is truly wondrous." And then this bodhisattva relates a story that he was once… he once saw some bodhisattvas discussing whether whether the ultimate truth was the same or different from compounded things.

[02:26]

And the other translation, the bodhisattvas are discussing whether the ultimate truth is the same or different from practices. And apparently one group thought that the ultimate truth was the same as the practices and another group thought they were different. And this bodhisattva who has purified intelligence thinks that maybe these people didn't understand the Buddha's teaching about the ultimate truth and he tattled on them to the Buddha. And as I mentioned this morning when I talked to people about this, these are bodhisattvas we're talking about here. In other words, beings who have realized great compassion and

[03:30]

wish to attain supreme enlightenment for the welfare of all beings. However, not all bodhisattvas apparently have the correct understanding of the relationship between ultimate truth and compounded things, conventionalities. And I wanted to also take this opportunity to mention something that I said many times during the practice period here last winter and which I've been saying in many other contexts and also started the retreat with, but I don't know if I said it clearly to the non-retreatants, the residential practitioners. I don't know if you've heard that this whole, that this teaching is addressed to bodhisattvas and therefore the context for this teaching on ultimate truth is great compassion and great love and great joy in how wonderful everybody is and great equanimity.

[04:56]

That's the context for this teaching. and it is also the fruit of this teaching. So, compassion is the foundation for the teaching and realization of Ultimate Truth, and compassion is the fruit of realizing Ultimate Truth. There's a difference between the compassion before and after realization of ultimate truth, the difference is that before we realize ultimate truth, our compassion may be defiled by ignorance. It is possible to be still ignorant and still feel great compassion. After realizing ultimate truth,

[05:58]

our compassion is purified of ignorance. So, the process is a process of purification of love. And in order to completely purify our love for all beings, which includes working for their welfare full time, with no exceptions, we need to realize the final truth of the way things are. Otherwise, as I mentioned yesterday, we get burnout and retire from the work of benefiting beings because the way we're doing it is not good for our health. So that's the context which I... Basically, there should be like a choir or a chorus behind me that's constantly going... Context is great love.

[06:59]

Context is great love. Context is great love. And then I come in. Now, this bodhisattva reported on these other bodhisattvas who didn't understand the relationship between the context is great love and ultimate truth. And when the Buddha heard about this, he said, Oh, yeah, these people, they're not practicing right. They don't understand that the ultimate truth is beyond, completely transcends sameness and difference. And again this morning I stressed that I thought it was very important that Buddha said they don't practice rightly because it is, in other words, he's saying that in order to practice rightly, you have to understand that your practice, any practice you do that's compounded, any practice that you do with a dualistic perspective, in other words, any practice that you do, that you do,

[08:23]

There's you in the practice. Any practice like that is not the same as ultimate truth. But also, it's not completely different. So if you do any practice, if you do any practice, if you're involved in any practice in the dualistic world, where you can see your practice and feel your practice and talk about your practice and sense your practice and do your practice, that kind of practice that seems to be happening, that practice is not completely the same as ultimate truth, but it's not totally different either. And you need to understand that, because if you don't understand that, then you're not practicing rightly. So understanding the two truths and their relationship is necessary in order to do even dualistic practice correctly.

[09:27]

In other words, it is possible to be involved in dualistic practice, practice that is not the same as ultimate truth, and understand that, and also understand that it's not totally different, and then do the dualistic practice, which is in a sense not real. from the point of view of Buddha, to do that practice correctly. So it is important to understand the two truths and their relationship to any dualistic activity you're involved in. Then you can practice rightly, even dualistically. So that's why I think it's worthwhile studying these But remember, the context of the study of the two truths is great compassion. You shouldn't forget practicing compassion while you're studying, because if you forget it, it's not going to work properly.

[10:30]

So there's a compassion context, and then you have to have a good understanding of the two truths' relationship to what you're doing in order to practice properly. Now, I might just mention, just briefly, not exactly parenthetically, but sort of leaping ahead, is that there is a practice that is exactly the same as ultimate truth. And that's the practice which we call just sitting, the sitting practice of the Buddhas. That practice is exactly the same as ultimate truth. However, that practice, which is exactly the same as ultimate truth, is not the same as, or different from, not the same, not completely the same as, or totally different from, practices which aren't Buddha's practice.

[11:33]

So there is a non-dual practice that the Buddhas do. There is a non-dual practice of Buddhas. Buddhas don't even do that practice. They don't do it. It's just their practice. It's just the way they practice. But they don't do it. What does it is everybody together does it. That practice is the same as ultimate reality. And that practice is, again, not the same as dualistic practices that people do. and not different. It transcends being the same or different from them. It's intimate. The practice of the Buddhas is intimate with the practice, the dualistic practice of deluded beings, of dualistically thinking beings. It's intimate with them. But that intimacy is not totally the same or completely different from the practice of sentient beings. It is intimate with them. So the Buddhas who have this perfect

[12:38]

supreme, pure, non-dual practice, their practice is intimate with any practice that we might do from a dualistic perspective. And that intimacy, again, means it's not the same completely, it's totally different. So the Buddha's practice is, just like ultimate truth, is intimate with our conventional approach to practice. Okay? So there is a practice that's the same, but these compounded practices are not completely the same and not completely different. And so these practices, the practice which is the same as ultimate truth, is a practice that doesn't have a self.

[13:41]

Ultimate truth is selflessness. The practice, which is the same as ultimate truth, is selfless practice. And selfless means it has no characteristics. It's ungraspable. And ultimate truth is like that too. Ultimate truth does not have any characteristics. Ultimate truth, in fact, is that you can't find anything. You can't find any characteristics, really. Ultimately, you can't find any all by themselves to grasp. Ultimate truth can't be found either. So once you can't find anything, when you're looking for something specific, once you can't find it, you realize ultimate truth. Once you really... totally can't find it and I'm completely convinced and a total flop at grasping things, you have realized ultimate truth.

[14:48]

But again, the context of that practice is great love because you need to have a lot of love around you in order to be such a total failure at grasping. But if you're totally grasped and supported by great love all around, you can stand to be so unsuccessful at finding things. Or at least maybe you can be. But you don't have a chance unless you feel loved. So, if you feel your teacher loves you, your teacher can take everything away from you. Your teacher can ask you to practice non-attachment, including to your teacher. If you feel your teacher loves you, all around loves you, from the top and the bottom, right, right and left, and so on.

[15:54]

So then if you're attached to something, your teacher can go, let go there, [...] let go there. And you kind of feel like saying, you know, get off my back. Get off my front, get off my right, get off my left. But you don't really feel like that because you know that the teacher is helping you realize ultimate truth, which you can't get a hold of. So anything you think you get a hold of, it's time to practice letting go. So the practice, since ultimate truth and the practice which is the same as ultimate truth has no characteristics, can't be grasped, can't be sought, you should practice non-grasping, non-attachment, non-seeking. That's how you... That's the samadhi that you warm up to ultimate truth with. That's the samadhi you warm up to selfless practice with. But you have to stay awake when you're doing that practice. It doesn't count to do it, you know, in your dreams. Because, of course, I know you all dream of non-attachment.

[16:58]

Right? Still dreaming, oh, non-attachment. I was non-attached and it was so great, you know. Anybody can dream of non-attachment, but to actually wake up and see these turkeys out there non-attached, that takes, you know, that's where it counts. Okay? So, then the sutra goes through and makes these nice arguments as if you weren't convinced that ultimate truth and... conventionalities, that is, things compounded of dualistic thinking, that is, all the things you think you can do, as if you weren't convinced that they're not the same or different, the sutra makes some interesting arguments for how they aren't the same or different. And the way the sutra does it is actually kind of difficult to follow.

[18:02]

And when I was reading it, I thought, now, did the bodhisattvas of old just have really good attention span? Or are they trying to make it difficult, or what, you know? Because the way the sutra does it is it says, if... if compounded things and ultimate truths were the same, then, and it goes, then this would be so, this would be so, this would be so, and this would be so. And then it says, but... That's not so, that's not so, that's not so, and that's not so. So you have to go through all these things and then they start refuting one, two, three, four. Did they hear that and go back? Could they hold all four of those arguments and then hear the four rebuttals and the four refutations and put them together? Or maybe they couldn't, but they were being trained to be able to do that. So maybe that's a training. Now that I think of it, it's a training in non-attachment that you get the argument and you get another argument and then you get another argument and you refute that one.

[19:07]

So you have to let go of the argument while you're hearing the refutation. And sort of like, what's this refuting? But for the sake of this hot afternoon, I'm going to put the argument together with the refutation. Put the refutation right after the argument to make it easier for you. And then when it gets cold in the winter, you can see if you can do three and three and three and three. It goes three and three, three and three, three and three. It's kind of hard. It's like the, what do you call it, the, it's the same style as the, what is it, the Fukan, the Zazen Shin, you know, where they do these couplets and then they do couplets and then they do couplets and then they do couplets. It's kind of like, it's harder. So what's the first argument? The first argument is, well, if they were the same, if the practices or compounded things were the same as ultimate truth, then everything you see, whenever you saw anything or heard anything or thought anything or tasted anything or touched anything or smelled anything,

[20:20]

or practiced anything, you would immediately see ultimate truth. And everything you see and everything you taste and everything you touch, you would realize nirvana and liberation and various other good things would happen every time anything happened. And that does happen for some people, but usually what happens is that they're looking at something like, what do you call it, a sound or a taste, And then they look at it in a very concentrated way with no attachment and no seeking, and then they see the ultimate truth. And then by seeing the ultimate truth through this phenomenal event, then they realize liberation, nirvana, and so on. But if they were the same, then all you have to do is see the ordinary world and you would immediately achieve the results of seeing ultimate truth.

[21:23]

But, this repetition I'll give you right away, but that's not the case. People who see compounded things and people who do dualistic practice don't always and on every occasion achieve liberation and nirvana by looking at conditional things. Right? So they're not, that's one reason why they're not exactly the same. Now, if they were, also if they were the same, then, you know, conditioned things degenerate. But ultimate truth doesn't degenerate. But conditioned things would degenerate, so then ultimate truth would degenerate. But ultimate truth doesn't degenerate, therefore...

[22:25]

Conditioned things are not completely the same as ultimate truth. Also, conditioned things are different. The practices which you do are all different. Therefore, if they were the same, ultimate truth would be different. But ultimate truth isn't different. It's always the same. Therefore, ultimate truth and conditioned things are not completely the same. Now what about if they were completely different? If they were completely different, and this is kind of an interesting one, if they were completely different, if practices and Ultimate Truth were completely different, or if compounded things in Ultimate Truth were completely different, then if you did see Ultimate Truth, you wouldn't be liberated from the practices.

[23:28]

Usually when you do practices, you're somewhat, you know, caught up. You're in bondage to the practices. You're in bondage to the way you see your relationship with practice. You're in bondage to the dualistic relationship with the practice. And you're in bondage to all dualistic phenomena. All dualistic phenomena you're in bondage to. They all enslave you and torture you in their dualism. But if you saw ultimate truth and ultimate truth was completely different from the things to which you're in bondage, then you would still be in bondage to them. Because your vision of ultimate truth would be in a completely different realm than your bondage to compounded things. So then seeing ultimate truth wouldn't liberate you from dualistic phenomena, because the ultimate truth has nothing to do, is in a totally different realm from the conditional thing.

[24:45]

But that's not the case. When you see ultimate truth, you are liberated from all the practices which you've been doing, all the dualistic practices which you've been doing, hopefully properly, even the ones you do properly, or the ones you don't do properly, you're in bondage. And when you see ultimate truth, you are liberated from the practices. You don't have to do them anymore. You don't have to not do them anymore. You don't have to do them correctly anymore. You don't have to do them sloppily anymore. You don't have to do any practices anymore because you're liberated. Because ultimate truth is not completely different from ordinary conditioned phenomena. You're not in bondage to them anymore. So you can leave town if you want to. But when you leave town, remember, in the background is a practice of compassion.

[25:51]

Okay? So I'm leaving you. I don't need to practice with you anymore, do I? So it's been very nice, and I hope you have a nice life. Okay, see you later. I'm back. So the Buddha said one time, it was one of my favorite sutras, which some people have heard this before, this Vata Sutra before, but this is one of the great sutras because it's one of the only sutras that has an Italian disciple. and the disciple's name is Senor Panasoli. And so, this sutra is called, I think, Fear and Dread. And I won't go into the whole sutra, just the end. And the end is, what's the matter?

[26:54]

Focus on the end. You focus, or relax when you focus, relax. You'll be able to keep that concentration up better. If you try too hard, you're going to have to take a break soon. It's too hot to try hard. This is actually, in traditional Buddhist practice, this is nap time. This is not, you know, usually, it's a toss-hour. The schedule is not quite in sync with the heat. Well, actually it is. This isn't supposed to be napping. So you're coming here, you're coming during nap time. So you've got to really be relaxed during nap time, but somehow not go to sleep, that's the hard part. So anyway, the Buddha says, you may think, saying your Panasoli or Pravasoli or whatever his name is. We had a student here actually one time named, what was his name? His name was Paul Pravasoli.

[27:55]

So anyway, Buddha says, you may think, saying your Pravasoli, that... That I'm not liberated. That I'm not liberated because I still do those practices. You know, I still go out in the forest and meditate. He's speaking like in conventional terms, right? Me going into the forest and meditating. I still go out in the dangerous forest and sit. So you may think I'm not liberated since I keep doing those practices. Like I'm kind of hung up on them or I need to do them in order to be happy. But I am liberated. I don't have to do those practices. I just do them for two reasons. Number one, I like to. And number two, to set an example for later generations. And it's hard for some people to imagine being able to practice without being attached to the practice.

[28:57]

Like, why would you practice if you weren't attached to it? Another one is, why would you practice if you didn't prefer it? The Buddha is liberated from the practice. He's liberated. Even if he prefers it, he's liberated from his preference. He still practices. Why? He's Buddha, he gets to do what he wants. And he likes to practice. Plus also, he's Mr. Compassion, so he wants to show the monks something to do. So, want something to do? Sit. Under a tree. In the forest. With the bugs. And make yourself a nice thing to sit on, too. So you don't bite your butt. There are some other interesting arguments and reputations, but...

[29:59]

I think I'll save those for later. Because some of you are just about ready to wilt. Right? And I was asked to have some pauses in the presentation. This is a pause. So I'll give you more examples later about if they were the same, how it would be, and how that's not so. And if they were different, how it would be, and how that's not so. But basically, anyway, in the end, the Buddha says, you know, as a little poem comes out of him, and he says, The realm of actions and ultimate truth are beyond sameness and difference.

[31:04]

Those who discriminate sameness and difference are not acting rightly. People are bound by forms of gross materiality. They should practice stabilization and insight so as to be released, so as to attain release. The stabilization and insight that we should practice is in the context of great love, practice non-attachment and non-seeking. That's how we stabilize and open our eyes. This translation of the verse is the characteristics of the compounded realm and the ultimate realm the character of the compounded realm and of the ultimate is the character devoid of sameness and difference.

[32:06]

Those who impute sameness and difference are improperly oriented. So, when you're practicing, if you're imputing that your practice is the same as ultimate truth, you're improperly oriented. If you say it's different, you're improperly oriented. Not getting into either of those, you're properly oriented. Cultivating stabilization and insight, beings will be liberated from the bonds of errant tendencies and bonds of signs. Signs, like characteristics. We're usually in bondage to signs. We have a, what do you call it? We have a sign addiction, a characteristics addiction.

[33:10]

Okay? We ignore ultimate truth and we suffer. And then rather than face our suffering, we try to grasp characteristics all the time to distract ourselves from our suffering. That's why we have to practice great compassion And in the supportive, positive feeling of the compassion, we can wean ourselves from grasping signs. From grasping signs means from, that's all we can grasp, we grasp characteristics. We need something, we need a sign, we need a handle to grasp. And signs and characteristics are what our mind grasps. So we train ourselves at non-grasping. all those signs that are flying by. Because phenomena have signs. If you grasp them, then you become enslaved to the sign through your grasping.

[34:14]

If you don't grasp them, then you start to undo the process of addiction. You still see the signs, but you just look at them. study them rather than grasping them. And this is the meditation practice that liberates you from that. And after a while you don't even have to do the practice of looking at them anymore and seeing what they are. Although you probably will continue because it's actually one of the most fun things to do. And you might want to set an example in case nobody else is in the neighborhood. Now, if there's a whole bunch of other Buddhas teaching, you can relax and go ahead and do it anyway, but you don't have to do it to teach people anything. You just do it because you like to. But sometimes Buddha, even though Buddha liked to go do those practices, sometimes Buddha didn't do them.

[35:21]

And just, you know, all the same to Buddha. Well, he talked a lot. Instead of going out in the forest and doing his meditation, he went... Thousands of talks. So I think I said, you know, I think I said, I might have said, I think I might have said, it might be on tape, that ultimate truth and conventionalities are completely different. I might have said that, but if I said it, I take it back. They're not completely different. They're different. They are different, just not completely. and they're also not completely the same.

[36:30]

And I think I also said they don't overlap. They don't overlap, but they're very close. But when you have, because ultimate truth completely penetrates conventional truth. Ultimate truth is everywhere, even where there's not conventional truth. But when it penetrates it, it doesn't overlap. It's like inside of it. But there's a space for it to sit in there without getting kind of overlapping. So, you know, it's not completely the same and not completely different. That's my present position. And I may refute myself later, but, you know, I'll try to include you in that refutation. That's another reason why you need to feel a lot of love in order to let yourself be refuted.

[37:35]

Refutation can be somewhat embarrassing, but if you feel enough love, you can handle it. But if you don't feel loved and you're refuted, like you're really in the dumps. Can you imagine getting your position refuted? Your truth getting refuted? Actually, after it's refuted, you feel fine because you understand a better position. But in the process, you might get worried of what people think of you when they find out that you've been refuted. Well, they love you. That's what they think of you. So don't worry. They'll actually like you better after you're refuted if you don't get nasty about it. But even they'll love you if you're nasty, but If you take it, if you're a good sports person about it, you know, it's the first time I ever said sports person.

[38:38]

I have said handy person before. Okay, so any comments about this? While you're still on your feet, on your seat? My question, going back to this not completely different part, I'm wondering if it's appropriate to think of ultimate truth and conventional truth as two related modalities which are understood differently. The one, for example, the conventional, has the characteristics that you've been talking about, that are the things that one can become attached to and can grasp and can seek. The other one, because it doesn't have these characteristics, it doesn't make sense for them to overlap or touch in that sense. But there's still two modalities that are related. So they're related in terms of modalities other than realms or... So you're not saying they're realms, right?

[39:48]

No. You're saying they're modalities. Well... When it's cold, you come back here when it's cold, we can talk about the argument about how they're not modalities. But before we get into that, before it gets cold, I just want to say that I am currently of the opinion, of the view, which I'm not attached to, just entertaining it for a while, that what they are is they are actually objects of knowledge. That's what the two truths are. And the modalities... if there's a modality thing, the modality is the modality of consciousness which realizes them. So, dualistic consciousness realizes an object out there and that object is separate from the awareness, the dualistic awareness, from the subject. And because of that kind of dualistic subjectivity, the object gets reified

[40:52]

So, conventionalities get reified because the subject is separate from them, and the subjectivity, which is separate, is a real separation, therefore there's a reified subject and a reified object, so they're really, you know, people sometimes don't really have a strong sense of how, a clear sense of how true they think it is that they're here. Not to themselves. But we are attached to ourselves. We think we're as true as we think a wall is true or a car is true. And that's the modality. I would say the consciousness is a modality, the dualistic consciousness. But what we think is true is something we think is out there. It's not a modality. It's an object that we know. And we do know it. And we think it's real. And that's an object of knowledge rather than modality. So there are some great Buddhist masters have said this position that they feel that one of the positions that some people have said is that the conventional truth is a consciousness or a perspective.

[42:10]

Some even say a realm. But I'm currently of the view that it's not the consciousness that is the conventionality. but the conventionality is an object of knowledge of a dualistic consciousness. But in that consciousness, the object does seem to be really out there on its own, because that's the nature of the consciousness which realizes it. The ultimate truth is realized also as an object of knowledge but not of dualistic knowledge. So the modality there is non-dual awareness, where there's a subject, but the subject is not, and there's an object, but the subject is not seen as separate from the object. So that's the modality in which the object is realized, but the truth is not the modality or the consciousness, it's the object.

[43:12]

So the consciousness which realizes emptiness, or the insubstantiality of things, that's our meditation practice. We try to develop that way, that non-dual attitude, that ungrasping attitude of mind and body. And when we have that kind of meditation, we realize the object of knowledge, which is emptiness. Emptiness is not a consciousness, it's not a modality. It's that you can't find any consciousnesses, that you can't find any objects, that you can't find any realms or modalities or anything. But if there's a modality, I would say, let the modality be the consciousness that understands emptiness. And let emptiness be that which is understood, the truth which is understood, the object of supreme knowledge. Okay? But, you know, there is an argument to refute these various other ideas about where the ultimate truth lies, other than as the object of knowledge.

[44:15]

And I'm kind of convinced of that argument right now. But the other ones are pretty good. It's just that they aren't as good, I think, as that one. Okay? The next person was Galen, and then after that's Vicky. Okay. This is Native American practice. Rather than siestas, we sweat. Yes? You can refute yourself. you refute yourself. Well, really you do refute yourself when you follow the argument. When somebody, when a contemplator, a contemplative of a more advanced stage talks to you and you hear that and then you feel your position refuted, really you refuted yourself. In other words, your own mind could see the value of the argument and your own mind says, okay, drop it and move up, move up, move on. move up to a higher, you know, understanding.

[45:17]

So really you do refute yourself, your own position. But sometimes the stimulation for that is a sutra, a commentary or a teacher. And also sometimes just events sometimes refute you. Like somebody dies and you have a reaction that shows you that you do have some attachments or whatever, you know. Or that you don't really understand how things go. Or somebody's born that can also shock you out of your, that can also refute you sometimes. Like I tell the story of my daughter being born and when she was born, she refuted my sense of how big her head was going to be. I had a theory about how big her head was going to be and then her head refuted me. By the way, she just, she called me and she's going to come down here and she's going to be here on Father's Day. So she can pay back all those Father's Day presents that she hasn't given me yet.

[46:20]

Walks? We can have all the past walks we can catch up on. We'll be walking constantly. So anyway, the events can refute you too. But oftentimes the thing that refutes you is an argument. Sometimes the argument is short. Like sometimes somebody just says, no, it's wrong. And it's enough sometimes. Just the authority of that statement sometimes just, your mind just switches and you, but the reason is better because then you can understand the new position. So you take something where you share, you share some kind of topic or analogy to the position. And it's nice to be analogy because analogy is not either position, but it's a meeting ground between the two positions. And then you enter the analogy, or like a koan, you enter the story, and the story turns and you move to the other position. So it's kind of like you need some meeting ground to make the transition from one position to the next.

[47:27]

But you can do that yourself by reading something sometimes. You go into the reading, you see the analogy, and then somebody looks at it from another direction and your mind flips automatically. into this new position which the scripture guided you by offering you some place to catch on. So really, your mind refutes your mind. But it doesn't do it all by itself. The environment helps you. Okay? Vicki? Vicki? Yes. Did you want to say more before I do? I speak to it by saying, when it's cold, I'll talk about when it's colder. It's too much to bring it up right now, but I'll talk about it tomorrow.

[48:30]

At the beginning of the session, it's not as high as at the end. This is the time when people are starting to fade. I think it's too much. I mean, I can say something, but I don't think it's going to sink in right now. But I'll do it tomorrow at the beginning. Okay? All right? Okay. All right. That guy died, by the way. That guy used to have that little thing and say, okay, all right. Yeah, all right, yeah. Was his name Senor Wences? Huh? What? Was that his name? Senor Wences? Huh? How do I know that he died? I'm embarrassed to say. But I'll tell you, he was 102. Hello. Hello. Remember that? You got to be about 50 to remember it. This guy had his hand, you know, and he would put a lipstick on his hand and put a little wig on top of his hand and have this little thing talking.

[49:37]

Huh? Ed Sullivan, yeah, a regular guy. I don't know if he was on any other program. But he was on Ed Sullivan. Yes, and I hated him. Yes? A quick question. Uh-oh. Those are long ones. It seems like Jonathan seems to... Things happen naturally, Dr. Jonathan. Things happen naturally. And then you say, to practice monogamy, can that be done through intellectual effort or bring it down to... So you thought that was a short question, huh?

[50:38]

Now, I would say that was a long question. That was a long question. Do you want a short answer? Short answer. What do you say? Quats? Quats is a short answer. That's short, isn't it? Quats? What? That's a kind of stem zen response, quats. It's a short answer to a long question. There's two kinds of zazen, right? Or there's six kinds of zazen. One kind of zazen is, you know, some kind of zazen that people think is zazen. Like people think, oh, zazen. And then there it is. They say, that's zazen over there. Or I do zazen. That's one kind of zazen. And within that basic type of zazen, which is a zazen which I do, or maybe I don't do, but you do, or maybe we don't do, but maybe somebody else does.

[51:47]

Anyway, the zazen that somebody does That's one type of Zazen. And under that heading, there's various varieties. Like, some people do Zazen as concentration practice. They do it. Some people do Zazen as insight practice. Some people do Zazen as better than either one of those. Some people do Zazen as like the supreme perfect practice of Buddhas. Okay? But those are all basically dualistic Zazens. And Zazen just means literally sitting concentration. So they sit and do it. And some people do zazen without even sitting, but they still do it. So basically, those are all dualistic zazens. And all those dualistic zazens are the same, basically, in terms of the two truths. In other words, they go in truth number one. They're conventionalities. They're things you can be aware of. So the zazen that happens up in the zendo, which you're aware of, which you are aware of, and which you do

[52:52]

or which you don't do, because you forgot, or you're too lazy, or sleepy, or you're depressed, or whatever. All those kinds of zazens are conventional truths, I would say. Okay? But again, before I tell you about the other kind of zazen, those conventional truths, which we call zazens, or my zazen and your zazen, all those kinds of zazen, in which all kinds of wonderful things happen, like you're talking about, letting go and You know, you name it. Whatever, anything that happens there that you can characterize and be aware of, those are conventionalities. And all those kinds of Zazen are not the same as or completely different from Buddha's Zazen. And Buddha's Zazen is ultimate truth. That Zazen nobody does. Nobody knows about. Nobody knows about it. Not even a whole bunch of super smart people and enlightened people know about it.

[53:57]

It's not that kind of thing. So that's the zazen, which is Buddha's zazen, Buddha's mind, ultimate truth, nobody does it, and that's something we need. We also need the other kind of zazen, too, though. You've got to have that kind, too, because, in fact... In this world, everything that happens, all phenomena, have these two qualities. So whatever Zazen is, this phenomena of Zazen, there's an ultimate understanding, an ultimate truth of the phenomena of Zazen, and a conventional truth. The conventional truth of Zazen is something you can do or can't do. Something somebody can do or nobody can do. But it could be like a practice that people try to do, and that's the practice, just trying. That's one meaning of zazen, or 20 meanings which are basically the same type. The other kind we also need because it's possible.

[54:58]

And a lot of people do the conventional kind of zazen. In other words, a lot of people do zazen. But in fact, everybody is always doing the real zazen, but they don't know it. Some people... do the zazen that they do. Some people say, I do zazen. This is like a subset of the human population. Like, you know, not even 1% say they do zazen, right? Except, of course, in California where it's 13% say they do zazen. And Marin County is 27%. And Tassajara is like 93% of people say they do Zazen. But in the general population, not too many people say they do Zazen. But Buddha sees everybody is actually doing the real Zazen, but not everybody knows it because they're holding on to either their dualistic idea of what Zazen is as Zazen, or they don't even think of practicing Zazen.

[56:02]

So they can't believe the real Zazen. It just seems like, you know, please, give me a break. A practice I can't do? I'm going to devote my life to a practice I can't do? Yeah, that's the bodhisattva way. To devote yourself to a way that you can't do. But even though you can't do it, you can dive into it and enjoy the water. I was listening to the radio the other day, and Gary Snyder was on, and I was, and I think it was Michael Krasny was interviewing him, and he says, well, you know, I think Gary Snyder's probably about 70 now, and, you know, pretty famous guy, and been practicing Zen a long time, and culture hero, and Nobel Prize winner, and just, you know, really, he's just an excellent writer, don't you think? Really a great poet, I think. And so Michael Crosby says, well, you know, you've been practicing that a long time, but you're still a seeker, aren't you?

[57:08]

In other words, you're not so old and arrogant that you're not still seeking. You're still practicing, right? And you're still seeking. And he said, no, I'm not seeking. He said, no, and he tried to get him to say yes to it another way, you know. He said, you know, there's really nothing to seek. I'm just enjoying it. And I thought, that's pretty good. Thank you, Gary. People don't like to hear that, but actually, you know, the practice, you know, if you're seeking the practice, you can't enjoy it. Why seek it? Why don't you just enjoy it? I know why, but anyway, go ahead. You don't have to seek it. Seeking it, it's okay to seek it, and seeking it is not completely the same or completely different from not seeking it. But not seeking is what Buddha does. There's no seeking in Buddha's practice. None. Well, you got an answer then. Or didn't you?

[58:12]

Pardon? Can you say that louder? Can you... You definitely can. You can definitely... Can you train your mind to be unattached? Definitely. Instead of just what? Instead of letting it happen in zazen? When you let it happen, what are you training? Well, it happens without thinking about it. How do you know it happens? Every dimension of our being is a mode of training in non-attachment.

[59:26]

So if you've got intellectual activity, if you don't train it, it's just going to keep cranking away and it's seeking attached away. So you need to train your intellect. You need to train your sense processes. Everything needs to be trained. And you are training your mind. But the training of the mind, like the first day, the example I gave, is to train the mind by just letting the sound of the creek be the sound of the creek. That's a training experience. Now, if you can hear that instruction and never say it to yourself again, but practice that after hearing it, then you don't have to keep saying, in the herd there's just a herd, in the herd there's just a herd. You just start listening and see if you can just listen and just let the herd be the herd. You don't have to be talking to yourself about that. But in fact, you did hear some words. We don't want to be rigid about this, but usually the way we start to learn any kind of meditation practice, the first level of understanding the practice is called srutamaya-prasna, which means you have an insight into the practice that comes through hearing.

[60:42]

So you hear, you hear, but actually you hear and then your mind understands the instruction. In other words, or you read. Same thing. You read a scripture or you hear somebody's instruction or you could also see somebody's hand signals about how to do the practice. You take it in through your senses. You get the instruction and then you think about it and then finally you become that. So you hear, in the herd there would just be the herd. You think about what that means. You notice how it's not that way for you. You keep watching that and reflecting on that until finally that's the way you are. is that the way you are is that when there's a sound, that's it. There's not you and the sound anymore. But then you went through a training experience and your mind got trained and your hearing got trained and your liver got trained, everything got trained because that's your life. Your life is now in the herd, there's the herd. So then your life is, there's not over there and over here anymore. There's not locations like here, there and in between.

[61:46]

So you have a different life called not being in different places. There's no more different places. There's only one place now. But this is for most people the result of training because most normally developed people walk around here and they look out and see there. That's where we walk in a here and there world. in a time, a present and future world, in a self and other world. This is the normal human situation, right? If you don't have that problem, well then, what problem do you have? If you don't have any problems, well, fine. But most human beings are caught in this here and there world. We need to train ourselves to let go of that here and there world and just be in a, you could say, a here world, totally here or totally there. But totally there is not really there and totally here is not really here. So it's not really here or there. Sarah?

[62:59]

Are all conditioned things equally penetrated by ultimate truth? Yes. However among conditioned things some things are not true and other things are true. So for dualistic minds among the conditioned things some things are not true. But ultimate truth penetrates the untrue things as much as the true things. So for a deluded person, some things are true and some things are not. So there's a differentiation among phenomena from the perspective of dualistic consciousness. There's still a differentiation among them. But ultimate truth doesn't discriminate between any of the stuff because you can't find anything

[64:09]

That's another kind of complicated discussion about how you tell the difference between in dualistic realm of conventionality, what's true, what's validly true, and what's invalid. It's another conversation. So I don't know how many conversations I postpone now until the winter or until the beginning of our conversations, but I have just, you know, I guess my intuition about what you're up for at this late hour. Please accept my decisions to postpone certain discussions. Any other kind of like gross topics that people in this sleepy state could follow? A clarification, yes? Right. Things are empty, okay, and seeing, you know, witnessing, understanding their emptiness, understanding that they're empty is seeing emptiness.

[65:38]

The fact that things are empty is emptiness. Emptiness is an abstract noun. Yeah? Is it too late for the yogic practice of the day? You didn't hear one? Well, you had something in mind yesterday. Yeah. Oh, I think it's too late. The one I had in mind, the one I had in mind I talked to some people about, and it has to do with when you notice your mind involved in the conventionalities of time, like past, present and future, okay? the short version of this instruction, which some of you may get in, some may not, is to switch from time to being. Because there's always being, as you know so well, with time.

[66:50]

But we're usually caught up in time, these little packages, these little conventionalities like Now, future and past, and then we have the future all segmented up into little packages, and the past in these little packages. So whatever little package of conventional time thing you're working with, just switch from the time to being. In other words, be in the time. Rather than look at the time, feel what it's like to be in the time. Even if it's thought of future? We thought of future, okay? So that's a thought of future. That's a conventional object, which you think is not now. then just switch from seeing it as an object to being there. That's the yogic practice. And that includes everything, the totality of the being, that's there with that so-called time that you're talking about.

[67:59]

I'm not talking about T-I-M-E, you know, as an idea. I'm talking about the little times that you really care about. Only philosophers care about T-I-M-E, or, you know, or if it's on a clock or a watch or something, or a magazine, which is where I found out about Señor Wenceslas. But everybody's caught up in time that comes in those little packages. And we're struggling to keep them all ordered and make sure that we and other people are behaving properly in regard to these conventionalities. We're big on this. These times, T-I-M-E, is not money. But these little conventionalities are money. And money is air to some people. So these little things are a big deal. We fight wars over these little things, right? So what you have to do is you have to switch from that kind of thing, that phenomena, which you call time, to being. And be all that you are with that being.

[69:01]

So like if you're early or late, or somebody else is early or late, be all that you are about that early or late. And in fact, there is a total being with each one of these times. And you should be that total being, not just a little snippet of the being, but totally what you are. In other words, you should be completely as upset as you are about time as you are. Or you should be completely as not upset as you are about time as you are. And don't be afraid of what will happen to you if you're the way you are about the time that you are. Like, I don't care that I'm late. I don't care that I'm early. I don't care that I... Or I do care that I'm late. Or I do care that you're late. I do care. I really do care. I'm really, really worked up about this time thing right now.

[70:03]

But you don't do that to hurt people. You fully express how the being of that time is. And when you fully express it, time drops away. And you're no longer, there's no, well, you know, the time's there in the background, like conventional truth is still there, but it's, you're looking at ultimate truth, which is, there's no time, you can't find, you cannot find time anymore. All you can find is being at the moment. Because you're totally, you're totally being. And even if you're feeling kind of like half-heartedly, you know, upset or excited about time, you can be 100% half-hearted about how you feel about this time thing. You can also be half-heartedly super upset about the thing, but that's not the practice. The practice is to be 100% super upset and 100% slightly upset, 100% really happy about the time, or 100% a little bit happy.

[71:10]

Completely be the way you are, the way being is around that time. The being, it's not that the being is any more real or has any more substance than the time. It's just that you're hooked on the time. If you switch to being, you see, you become liberated from time. That's the yogic exercise that I was going to mention. But I didn't have time, so I just said what I just said. Yes? Yes, let's say you are 100% angry about something, then the next time you have to, again, wholeheartedly upset that this happened. Yes. So don't you worry sometimes of acting from habit? Acting from habit? Yeah, but also not being able to actually step back. No, no, I'm not saying... I'm not saying if you get angry to be angry at somebody. I'm saying... Well, but let's say it's anger. I'm saying that you would be, you emphasize being the way you are when you're angry.

[72:16]

In other words, you don't use the anger for anything. You just fully express it. But you don't, when you fully express how you feel, you don't act out. And you don't hurt anybody with it. Fully expressing means if you're angry and you enter the being of being angry, you do that fully, then the Bodhisattva precepts will be realized. You will not be angry at the same time. Because you fully do it. I said before also, being is just as empty as time. But we're hooked When we're hooked on time, which we usually are, switch to being. Because we don't know how to do time. We don't know how to do it. But we know how to cling to it and be upset about it. So we do know what it feels like and how we are around it. And how we are is we're basically upset about it all the time.

[73:21]

Whenever we're involved in time, we're basically in trouble. Look at it. Check it out. That's part of switching from time to being, is check out how upset you are about time all the time. On every case, when you get involved with it, you're trouble. Check it out. Then you're checking out to verify that this is a problem for us. Conventional entities are problems. But time goes very nicely with beings. But we switch from being to the object called time and grasp it. But now it's not to switch over and grasp the being. It's to switch over to fully express the being. Not to like grab it and then do something with it. It's to like see how it feels to be angry, not be angry. See the difference? Yes. How often when you're angry do you really emphasize how you are when you're angry rather than be angry and then make something out of it?

[74:30]

So again, in the herd, there's just the herd. In the cognized, the anger, there's just the cognized. You don't like have a little piece of anger and then do something about it. You emphasize how it is to be angry. Then there's no you and the thing you're angry at anymore. then you can't identify with the anger. It isn't yours anymore. And somebody else isn't the cause of it, because there's nobody over there. But when we're angry, I don't have a hundred billion times that when I was angry, I checked in to see how I felt when I was angry. But I do have a hundred billion times of being angry. I have like 37 times when I check to see how it was to be angry. And you know how it was? I didn't like it. It's like low quality. You know? But that doesn't mean I try to get rid of it. I'm just saying, see how it feels. And if you see how it feels, you're switching, you're turning the light around and shining it back on yourself.

[75:36]

You're learning the backward step, which will release you from whatever you look at. But we don't usually do that. We When we feel angry, we put it out there and or we put our anger out there and we put the thing reasoned out for there and then we just go to town on that. Rather than see how does this poor person feel being subject to this phenomena. Turn around and see it. That's the practice. That's switching from the object to how it feels. But, you know, it's getting kind of late. And I appreciate that some people are still sort of awake. It's great. Especially since some of them who have to raise their hands are the people who look like they're most tired. It's great. I think we should stop, don't you? So let's do it then, shall we?

[76:33]

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