I think the last three times I spoke that crisis is the place where spiritual life lives. Another way to say it would be that Zen lives at turning points or at the turning point. Like right now each of us is sitting here I guess on this planet and to the extent that we can see that where

[01:07]

we sit right now is a turning point that helps us understand the possibilities of freedom at this moment. And crisis means turning point. And I've also been mentioning that the Chinese word, the Chinese expression, one of the Chinese expressions for crisis is made of two other words. And those two words are, or two characters are, danger and opportunity. So right now there's an opportunity for freedom, but there's also danger right here. There's a danger of not being free. And there's a danger of reacting to not being free in unskillful

[02:16]

ways. Lots of danger around us, but lots of opportunity too, lots of opportunities for freedom. And I also have been saying over and over that if we open to the dangers that surround us, that opening also at the same time is an opening to the opportunities around us. And if we close to the dangers around us, we close to the opportunities. The opportunities are still there and the dangers are still there, it's just that we close to them. And

[03:20]

when I say open to danger, I don't mean necessarily that you become afraid of the dangers, although some of the time, if we open to danger and we haven't seen it before, or even if we have seen it before, when we open to danger, sometimes we become afraid. So for example, everybody in this room is in some sense possibly holds some danger for each of us. So if you came up here and sat or stood in front of me and started speaking to this group, you might have some opening to some danger. Many people feel somewhat afraid to come up and speak in front of a group of people, large group of people, because when they do, when they

[04:25]

notice, when they open to, boy, there's a lot of people here, they also open to, well, some of them might not think I'm good looking, or some of them, if I say anything, some of them might think, might not approve of me, or someone might think some other thing about me that they don't like. So it's dangerous to speak in front of a large group of people, and I would say, yes it is. I'm in danger to you, and you're in danger to me. But it's possible to open to the danger and not be afraid, but if there is fear, we have to then be open to the dangers of fear. But there's also opportunities in fear. When you're in fear, it can be a place, a crisis point too. If you can see the dangers of the fear, you

[05:33]

can see the opportunities of the fear. You can become free in the middle of fear. Some part of us, though, has to be able to look clearly at the danger, clearly and calmly be present with the danger. Then we can be clear and calm with the presence of the opportunity. If we're shaky with the fear or shaky with the danger, then we'll have trouble getting on the horse of freedom. But if we can face the horse of danger and go up and get on, we may notice also that this is a freedom horse. I'd like to bring up the turning point

[06:40]

or the crisis of faith, or if there's some faith in your life, or if you interact with people who have faith, some kind of faith, I'd like to point out the crisis aspect of faith. So again, faith, like anything else, if it's happening, doubt also, but start with faith. There's dangers surrounding faith, and there's opportunities surrounding faith. Some of you may know lots of dangers around faith. I'll just point out a couple, and you

[07:41]

can bring up more later if you'd like. One of the dangers of faith is, particularly religious faith, is that people may think that, or they may feel, that they really don't have a reason for their faith. They just believe in certain things, or they just trust certain things, or they just trust, not so much things, but they may trust certain religious practices. In the tradition of the Buddha, there's a teaching to not really trust things, like mountains and rivers and planets, because they, what do you call it, the Rockies may tumble, Gibraltar may crumble, but our love is here to stay. So we don't really even trust

[08:48]

the mountains, because they're impermanent. But what do we trust? We might trust being present with the mountains when they crumble. I'm proposing to you in a way that you consider trusting living in the crisis of the mountains, that when you're in the mountains, you know, especially in California, these mountains can move, they can crack, they can crumble, and we can be hurt. But if you can face the danger of the mountains, I'm proposing you can find the opportunity of freedom in the mountains. So I trust, actually, living at the turning point, and opening to danger and opportunity, and the freedom, opportunity in the dangerous situations we live in. I trust that. I tell you about it, you might trust it too. But the

[09:53]

danger there is that you might think, well, I don't really have a reason for trusting this. You might not have a reason, you might say, it just sounds like a good idea. And you don't have to prove that it's a good idea, you just might give it a try. Try living in crisis, since it's where you are already, according to me. But again, the danger, if you can't justify it or prove that it's good, one of the dangers is that you slip into thinking, well, I get it on authority, I receive it on good authority, so it's true, it couldn't be wrong, and therefore there's no conversation about it. Either you agree with me or you don't, and if you don't, you're wrong, and we have nothing to say to each other. And I think, again, that when the conversation stops between us, between people who have

[11:05]

faith and also between people who don't have faith and people who do have faith, when the conversation stops, the turning stops or is hindered. So another, and a big kind of big social danger of faith is like theocracies, you know, states where some religious truth or some faith is held to be infallible, unquestionable truth, and anybody who questions it is actually can be in danger of a kind of spiritual or religious inquisition process, and this can happen in Iran or Afghanistan or United States or Stalinist Russia.

[12:16]

Like a lot of people were afraid to question the invasion of Iraq because there was this kind of feeling like if you question it, you're not being patriotic, and once the invasion occurs, if you question it, you might not be patriotic. And patriotism is good, and there's no question about it, no questioning, no conversation that it's good. It's a good thing, but there's no conversation about it. There's a story that it's a good thing, but there's no way to question the story. A Czech writer named Milan Kundera said, I invent stories, and then I use them to confront each other.

[13:44]

And by this means, I ask questions. He makes a story, and then he takes another story and confronts it, and the stories start turning. In this way, he turns his stories into a way of questioning. He says, the stupidity of humans comes from having answers for everything, but the wisdom of the novel comes from having questions for everything. So he writes a story, and then after he finishes the story, he says, that's not what happened, and then he tells another version of it. This is what happened, and he said, that's not really what happened either. This is what happened. What's happening? It's turning. What's happening is turning. So the opportunity, the danger of faith is that we'll take it literally.

[15:06]

Well, actually, you have to take it literally, but then you don't have to keep taking it literally. You can take it literally and then let it turn, or take it literally and bring up another story, so the two literal stories can start turning each other. But to take it literally and hold it literally and say it's true and there's no conversation, that's the danger that can lead to war among people. So you have all these different faiths in the world now, and Zen is one of them in a way. But Zen is a faith which says, our faith is a story. It's a storytelling faith. It's a fictional faith. It's a faith about fiction.

[16:09]

It's using fictions to keep the conversation going. So we have a lot of stories in Zen about crises, about turning points. And these stories about turning points, about where people turn from bondage to freedom, from ignorance to enlightenment, these stories are stories. They're not what happened. They're stories about what happened, but they're not what happened. Because they're just stories. So when you say a story about some Zen people getting enlightened, or some stories about some Zen people interacting really compassionately,

[17:18]

that's a story about what they were actually doing, or what was actually happening. It isn't what happened. And because it's a story, you can say that. When you hear about some Zen teaching, you say, that didn't happen. And the person who tells you might say, you're right. And you say, what did you tell me for? So you could say that. Now you tell me what really happened, and then you can say, that didn't happen, and you say, that's right. I just did it because you told me to. We're having a conversation. Zen stories are not what really happened. Zen stories are just stories about what happened. And by the way, ultimately these are stories to help us understand that nothing happens. Actually, nothing's really happening. And that's another story.

[18:22]

And you can say, yes, things are happening. But basically, everything's fundamentally at peace, and nothing's actually happening. That's an illusion. So in Zen, we have stories about what's happening, that aren't what's happening. The stories never really did happen, but they're stories about what happened. They're fictions. They're creations. They're inventions to help us understand what's happening. They help us question everything, so we can turn, so we can dare to face the dangers of the world and open to the opportunities.

[19:29]

Usually, we want to have a story which is actually what's happening. A story that's true. But if we hold to the story that's true, it's hard for us to face the dangers that the story's actually false. True stories are in danger of being false. But if they're so true that they have no danger of being false, then we close to the danger of our true stories. So we close to the dangers of being free of our true stories. So some people are walking around with true stories, and they're totally enslaved by them, and miserable with their true stories, which cannot move, which cannot turn. And also, misery loves company, so they want everybody else to hold on to this true story with them, and then get everybody who's not believing this story to believe it. So everybody's got answers for everything. And then we have war.

[20:37]

These people got answers for everything. These people got answers for everything. And they have different answers for everything. And so stupidity arises among wonderful people. But wisdom arises when these people start asking questions like, Do you think possibly our truth could be in danger of not being true? Shut up! Shut up! Bring the inquisitor in on this person. They're asking questions of our truth. Could I have a conversation about our truth? Could I have a conversation about the truth of the Buddha way? What? Is it possible that what we're saying here is true, is not true? Is it possible that what I'm saying here is not true?

[21:44]

So I say this. Here's another story. Zen doesn't give you the truth. Zen is the truth. Meeting each other face-to-face. It's not like Zen's got the truth. Here's Zen, here's the truth. No, it's like Zen is when you meet each other face-to-face. In that meeting, the turning starts happening. And in that meeting, there's danger. Every meeting, there's danger. There's danger that you'll get hurt and that you'll hurt someone. There's danger that you will be afraid and hold on to your truth and hurt somebody with your attention and clinging

[22:51]

and disrespect for everybody that disagrees with your unassailable truth. There's that danger. But there's also, in that meeting, an opportunity. An opportunity to say, I've got a truth, you've got a truth, everybody's got a truth. And I now endanger my truth to you. Please be kind to my truth, but still, if you want to ask any questions about it, go ahead. But please be gentle. I don't want to be gentle, I'm going to be rough with your truth. Ooh, yeah, that's a possibility. And I open to it. And now there's freedom. For a moment. Because I endangered my truth to you in the meeting. There's the Zen. There's the turning.

[23:53]

There's the freedom. In that meeting. In that face-to-face meeting. And the meeting transmits the liberating truth. Or you can say, Zen is a conversation. And it can be a verbal conversation or a physical conversation. Like dancing together. Or, yeah. Walking together. Or touching elbows. Or passing a pencil. Or, in many stories, raising a whisk. And also Zen is a transmission. But it's not a transmission from Zen to you, or from you to Zen. It's a transmission that happens in the midst of the whole universe, everywhere.

[24:58]

It's the way the truth is being transmitted all over the place, between everything. And, in particular, it's the way it happens between two people. Two enlightened people. Two people who are enlightened by the transmission that's happening between them. Or, two people who are awakened to the transmission that's happening between them. We are actually in a process of transmission, of mutual transmission, all day long. And then there's stories about people waking up to this transmission. And these are stories. They're not the actual waking up to the transmission. They're stories about the waking up to the transmission of freedom between people. And the transmission of freedom through the meeting.

[26:02]

So we have this expression in Zen from quite a long time ago, that it's a special transmission outside the scriptures. So many religious traditions, many faith traditions have scriptures. And Zen, in a sense, lives in a world where there's many... Zen lives in a world where there's many faiths. Just like you live in a world where there's many faiths. You're like Zen. You live in the same place Zen does. In a world of many faiths. A world of many scriptures. Zen is a special transmission in the ocean of scriptures. Which is outside the scriptures. But outside the scriptures means using the scriptures and not using scriptures. Using the scriptures, not using scriptures, and won't it be fine?

[27:07]

So we have an ocean of scriptures, an ocean of beings. Do you see the ocean of beings? Do you see the ocean of scriptures? Do you see the ocean of faiths? That's where we live. You may not have faith yourself, but you're surrounded by people who do have faith. Right now, you know, you may not have any faith, but there's millions of people in churches right now. All around you. Particularly over to the east. Because, actually maybe the whales are in church too, I don't know. We're surrounded by religious people. In the sense that people who have faith as part of their life. And some of those religious people, or some of those people hold their faith. As I mentioned, they hold their faith. They're not going to have a conversation about their faith. Their faith is a bat, not a whisk.

[28:20]

This is my faith. Some people are like that, and some Zen people are like that too. They're called Zen because they have a badge, a Zen badge. And they have a membership card, and they have a Zen bat. And they're real Zen people, and they're not going to have a conversation about that. So watch out for them. But if you can meet those people, those people who don't want to have a conversation. If you can meet them, and those are dangerous people, those people who think they're Zen, and they don't want to have a conversation about it. And you go up to them and say, Could I have a conversation? They say, No! I don't want to have a conversation about Zen. You believe what Zen is, or shut up! So that, you know, again and again I think of this, you know, this story,

[29:23]

this scene I saw in a Woody Allen movie I've told you before. It's a story where he's a bank robber, and he winds up in prison in the southern part of the United States. It's kind of like a chain gang style prison. And he's coming in with the new recruits, or the new inductees, the new prisoners, and they have a very fierce and violent head guard with all kinds of weapons he's holding in his hands, and lots of big tough guys behind him. And he's saying, Let me tell you a little bit about the way we do things here. And then he tells them, he says, And if you don't want to go along with these policies we have here, it will be very, very horrible for you. You will be very, very sorry if you do not go along with our rules. We will hurt you. We will harm you. And so, like that kind of talk, kind of cruel way of talking to these poor people

[30:29]

who are now in prison, rather than saying, Oh, you poor guys, you committed these crimes and now you're in prison. I'm really sorry for you. He more says, No, you're in prison now, and you've got to follow these rules or we're going to punish you. And he says, Any questions? And Woody Allen says, Yes, I have a question. And I will put in parentheses, I'd like to have a conversation. He says, Do you think it's all right to pet on a first date? And actually the guard, this fierce, cruel guard, is disarmed, doesn't know what to do with it. So a lot of these Zen people or other religions who have these faiths that they hold up and that they're ready to smash you with if you don't believe them. And you think, Well, they don't want to have a conversation about this faith. They want me to submit or shut up, or both.

[31:30]

Maybe he said, Could I ask a question? Do you think it's all right to pet on a first date? I read this novel recently about Afghanistan during the, I think it was during the Taliban era or right afterwards, and this guy was watching TV and these, I guess they were imams, Islamic teachers, they were having a discussion about whether, when young men, because young men are starting to wear their pants down below, they're real low like the United States, you know what I mean? They wear the pants so the underpants show. When I was a kid, they wore pants low like that, too, but no underpants. You see the crack. But now the underpants are part of the presentation, right? Someone thought it's the boys' version of the girls exposed in their belly buttons. But anyway, so these boys in Afghanistan are going around

[32:35]

or wearing their pants real low, showing their underpants, and so the imams were discussing whether or not these boys would go to hell for wearing their pants down. They went back and forth like this for about an hour and a half, and at the end they decided, yes, they will go to hell for wearing their pants low. But at least there was a conversation. Of course, there were no women in on the conversation and no Zen people were allowed to ask about dates, but at least they were having a conversation. It wasn't like settled beforehand. Yes, definitely, no question about it, they will go to hell for wearing their pants low. There was a little bit of room there, a little bit of room for freedom. And in fact, even though they did decide, yes, they will go to hell, after the discussion it was kind of funny. A little bit of humor. Yeah, they will. It's kind of funny. Because of the play beforehand, even though they came up with this

[33:37]

kind of unfortunate conclusion for these boys, there's a little freedom in that. What attracted me to Zen was... There are stories about people having great awakenings. That isn't what attracted me. What attracted me, I think, to Zen was stories of people having conversations. People who got together and had conversations and you could see, I could see, I felt in the conversation this freedom. Freedom from what? Freedom from being stuck. Freedom from not being free. So I've told you these stories over and over, you know, these stories of people interacting, having conversations. Like the Zen monk who lived in a fishing village and a girl got pregnant and she told her parents

[34:38]

that he was the father. So the parents went and had a conversation with him. And the conversation was, you're a really rotten priest. You're a disgrace to the Buddhadharma. And when the kid comes, you take care of it, you monster. And he says, is that so? And the baby is born, they bring him the baby, he takes care of the baby for two years with the assistance of a wet nurse. And the girl tells the parents that actually he's not the father, somebody else is. And they go to the priest and they say, they have another conversation. They say, you're a great priest. We're so sorry we accused you falsely. You didn't argue with us. You didn't defend yourself and you took care of our grandchild. We thank you so much. We're honored to know you and you are, you're the reason why we practice the Buddha way, people like you.

[35:39]

And he said, is that so? And I thought, that's a nice conversation. I'd like to have a conversation like that, those two types, where people are coming to me and criticizing me falsely. And I say, hmm, this is what's happening, huh? And then they come and praise me falsely. And I go, hmm, this is what's happening. They come and tell me stories about myself. People come and tell me stories about myself. People come and tell you stories about yourself. They say, oh, you're this or you're that. You appear to be this or you appear to be that. Or they tell you stories about themselves. I hate you. I want to tell you a story about myself. I think you're a jerk. End of story. They tell us stories. But we feel like, oh, this is like the beginning of a conversation. This sounds like a conversation opportunity here.

[36:42]

So this special transmission outside the scripture means we don't use the scriptures. We don't use the teachings to get the truth. We use the meeting and the conversing to get the truth. I don't get the truth. You don't get the truth. Our conversation gets the truth. When we're talking, it's not like we get the truth. The truth takes us over through our conversation. Then that's a special transmission occurs in that way. So again, we can use the scriptures, but we use the scriptures. Or we cannot use the scriptures. But we can use the scriptures, but we use the scriptures to have a conversation so we become free of the scriptures. We use our faith to become free of our faith in this tradition. We use our faith as a point of departure beyond our teachings.

[37:49]

Again, as I said, using the scriptures, not using the scriptures, and won't it be fine? So I've got a lot of stories about people conversing. There are lots of stories about people conversing. But it's getting late already. And I know you have a date with a muffin. Are there muffins? You have a date with no muffin. I'm kind of sorry for us.

[38:57]

I don't get a muffin either, right? Don't even I get a muffin? You think that's funny, don't you? Okay, so maybe it's time for a few stories. Since there's no muffins. There's tea. Okay. Well, there's a story right there. There's a great teacher. What was his name? Jojo, I think, yeah. And his attendant comes to him and says, Teacher, a monk has come and he wants to know what's the living meaning of the Buddha way. And Jojo says to his attendant, Go tell him to drink some tea and leave.

[39:59]

And so he goes and tells the guy, and he comes back and said, Teacher, I told him. By the way, teacher, what is the meaning of the Buddha way? And Jojo says, Drink some tea and leave. Jojo's grandfather was named Master Ma. Ma means horse. He was the horse ancestor, the great spiritual horse of the Zen tradition, Master Ma. And a monk came to him one time and said, Beyond the four propositions

[41:10]

and beyond the one hundred negations, what is the living meaning of the Buddha way? So here he's saying, these are these teachings, the four propositions and the hundred negations, these are teachings in the tradition to help people actually, I would say, become free. They're teachings to help you find the turning point where the spiritual work of liberation occurs. So he said, beyond these teachings, where's the living meaning? Where's the special transmission outside these teachings? He doesn't, he knows, he's heard these teachings, but he's not asking about the teachings. He's asking, what's like, where's the transmission beyond these teachings, teacher? He's asking the great Master Matsu. And Matsu says,

[42:12]

I'm really tired today. I can't explain it to you. Go ask my student, Shittong. So then he goes and asks Shittong. Same question. What's the living meaning of the Buddha way? And Shittong says, why don't you ask the teacher? Why don't you ask Master Ma? And he said, Master Ma told me to ask you. He said, oh, well, I got a headache. I can't explain to you. Go ask Master, go ask brother or Master Waihai. So he goes and asks Waihai, another great Zen master. These are two great Zen masters who are students of the super great Zen master. So they go ask Bajong Waihai. And he says, why don't you ask the teacher?

[43:19]

So he goes through the same thing again. And Waihai says, well, after all this, I don't know. I don't understand. After all this, I don't understand what's this living Buddhism beyond these teachings. So he goes back and tells Matsu what happened with his two great students. And Matsu says, Shittong's hair is white. Bajong's hair is black. That's just a story of a conversation. Did you get it? Did they tell you what the living meaning of the Buddha way beyond all these wonderful teachings was? Did they tell you? Well, sort of did. But it wasn't something you could hold on to and say, well, we're not going to have a conversation about this.

[44:19]

Matter of fact, it seems like you might want to have quite a few conversations about that conversation. Like, well, what is that about? Who was that masked man? What was that? Who was that? What are they talking about? I'm changing religions. Or you can find out something and hold on to it and not have to have all these conversations and questions. So it's getting late. Sorry, it's quarter to four or whatever. I got to be going. But do you want me to set up one more for the road? Is this enough for you guys? It's enough? Okay.

[45:21]

How many people is it enough for? Raise your hand. It's only three. Five, six, seven. How many people want one more? Okay, well, the people who it's enough for, I would suggest you stand on your head. Or stand on one foot. Why don't you stand up and jump around a little bit, get some exercise. You see, most people wanted one more story. Go ahead, stand up. There you go. You can have a hip conversation. Maybe that's the meaning of hip. Have a conversation with your hips. So, unfortunately, this is really a long story. So once upon a time,

[46:22]

there was a Chinese monk who lived in China. And he heard about, and he was an expert on the scriptures. It seemed like he had these scriptures and it seemed like he had some idea about what they meant. And then he heard, well, actually, yeah, he had some idea about what they meant. I'm not going to make this as long as it really is. But anyway, he had some idea about what these scriptures meant. And then he heard about the Zen school's teaching, about how you could go down to where the Zen people were hanging out. There was an infestation of them in Hunan. Lots of Zen people down there. And he lived north of there. So he went down there to, like, destroy these Zen heretics

[47:26]

who were talking about this special transmission outside the scriptures. Who were, you know, who were saying, using the scriptures, not using the scriptures, and won't it be fine? He said, no, no. We use the scriptures. We don't not use the scriptures. So he went down there. And as he was approaching some Zen temples, he walked by a little, this guy's name, by the way, is Dishan. He walked by this little roadside tea shop where this lady was selling fried cakes. And these fried cakes are actually called, in Cantonese, they're called dim sum. In Mandarin, they're called tianxin, or tianxin, which means, literally, dot heart. But it means to dot, like, to touch your heart or hit the spot. They're little cakes that hit the spot, you know.

[48:27]

They refresh your heart. You know, they're refreshments, right? They touch your heart. They touch, they reach your tummy. And they hit that spot. And then you feel, oh, good. I can go on in my trip to defeat these Zen heretics. So he wanted to order some refreshments, some dot hearts. And the lady said, what's that on your back? He had a big backpack full of scriptures that he was going to use to destroy these Zen people. And he said, well, it's the, you know, it's the perfect wisdom scriptures, and particularly it's the diamond cutter scripture of perfection of wisdom, and lots of commentaries on it. And she said, oh, well, if you, I have a question for you, and if you can answer the question, then I will give you the cakes and your heart will be refreshed, and you can go on your way.

[49:28]

If you can't answer it, you have to go someplace else to get your refreshments. He said, okay, go ahead, ask. It's a question about the diamond sutra she wants to ask. She said, okay. She says, in the diamond sutra it says, in the scripture it says, past heart or past mind cannot be God. Future mind or future heart cannot be God. Present mind cannot be God. Venerable teacher, with what mind are you going to refresh your mind? And he couldn't answer. And she said, see you later. Not getting any cakes here. He couldn't relate outside the scriptures. He came to destroy the people

[50:29]

who could relate outside the scriptures, like this lady, who could relate outside the scriptures. She used the scriptures, but then she had a way to play with them and converse with them. So she referred him to a Zen master, and the Zen master's name was Dragon Pond. So he went to Dragon Pond, which is, you know, it's a kind of a play on words because the temple's called Dragon Pond, and in front of the temple there was a pond that had dragons in it, and also the teacher of that temple was called Dragon Pond. So he went to see the master, Señor Dragon Pond. And then he gets there, and he walks into the room, or the teacher's room, to meet the teacher, to have a meeting. Now he doesn't want to have a meeting, actually.

[51:30]

In his deep, deep down, he really does want to have a meeting, but he doesn't know he wants to have a meeting. He just wants to destroy this guy. So he comes in and he's... Actually, I don't know if he wants to destroy the guy. That's just a story, which I just thought maybe wasn't true. But he walks into the teacher's room and he doesn't see Dragon Pond. Dragon Pond happens to be hiding behind a screen. So then Dushan, the visiting monk, says to the empty room, he says, Long have I heard of Dragon Pond, but now that I've arrived here, there's no pond to see and no dragon appears. He doesn't know it,

[52:35]

but he's just started a conversation. He thinks this was an empty room, but then Dragon Pond comes out from behind the screen and said, Now that you've come and you haven't found a dragon or a pond, you've really found Dragon Pond. Now you've really arrived at Dragon Pond, now that you realize there's no Dragon Pond and no dragon. Now you're really here. And when you come to Green Gulch and you realize... This is called Green Dragon Zen Temple. Did you know that? When you come to Green Gulch, to meet the Green Dragon, and you see there's no Green Gulch and no dragon, then you've really arrived at Green Dragon Temple.

[53:36]

Just like in ancient China. You can reenact that story every time you come here, not find anything here. But that's not the end of the story, that's just this current lesson. Then he says... Then Dishan bowed and withdrew. And then during the night... So he goes to this temple, and then during the night he goes back to Lum Yan's room and stands in attendance in the teacher's room in the dark of the night. And then the teacher says, Why don't you go? Can you imagine this guy goes to the teacher's room and just stands there in his room for a long time. And the teacher says, Well, why don't you go? And Dishan then again bowed and departed.

[54:45]

And he lifted up the curtains to go outside. And he said, It's dark outside. And then Dishan said, Oh, here, here's a candle so you can see your way. And he gives him the candle, and then he steps outside with the candle and Braganpan blows the candle out. And Dishan understands the Dharma. How did it happen? It happened in the conversation. No dragon? Hi! I need some light here. Through this dance that they did, the Dharma of Zen was transmitted. He was finally free. With all this dangerous situation, pretty dangerous, go to somebody's house late at night,

[55:46]

stand in the dark, have them tell you, Well, why don't you leave? Go out in the dark, giving you an imperfect candle, taking your light away, endangering your light to somebody. Anyway, that's the story. That isn't what happened, that's just a story. The next morning, here's another story. The next morning, he took all his big pile of sutras out in the courtyard of the temple and burned them. He was free of these wonderful teachings. I mean, these are great things he burned. Fortunately, there were some other copies in China, so we can find out what they were. But these were like supremely wonderful, liberating texts, which he loved and thought were the truth, which they are. They are the truth, but only in the situation of the conversation, only in the situation of

[56:49]

feeling the danger around the wonderful truth and the opportunities and sharing this and endangering our truth with everybody else who's endangering their truth to us. It's in that realm that all the world religions have a chance to help each other become liberated from each other. So, like I often say, the founder of Zen Center Suzuki Roshi said, Buddhism is not one of the isms like Mohammedism, Judaism, Catholicism, Capitalism, Communism. It's not one of those isms. Oh, I forgot to say, it's Buddhism. It's not one of the isms like Buddhism. That's the punchline. I missed it, sorry. Buddhism is not one of the isms like this ism, that ism, and Buddhism. Buddhism is when all these isms

[57:52]

go beyond themselves and the Buddhists need to help the Muslims and the Jews and the Catholics and the Protestants and the Hindus go beyond their religion and those people of all those religions have to help the Buddhists go beyond theirs. Buddhism is when Jews go beyond Judaism and Islamic people go beyond Islamic and find the special transmission that's outside all traditions because none of the traditions can reach their source. All of them are outgrows from a deep, unreachable, unfathomable truth. So the religions can help each other rather than hurting each other if, like somebody said

[58:53]

in the Middle East, somebody has to be willing to be defeated in order to find peace. Is Israel strong enough to say, okay, we lost. You guys won. Or are the Palestinians strong enough to say, okay, you won. Who can go beyond their truth? That starts the process of the conversation. And that conversation, that's what is the crisis of faith, I say. By the way, the story of Dushan goes on. This is just his enlightenment. And I'll tell some more stories later about Dushan if you want to at the question and answer. But I don't want to keep you too long in this little trap here. I want to let you get out now. But before, I have to sing a song.

[59:56]

And I've already kind of tipped you off to this song before. And it came to me when I was taking notes and I wrote, using the scriptures, not using the scriptures, that beat, you know, using the scriptures, not using the scriptures. What song is that from? Using the scriptures, not using the scriptures. And I read, oh, and won't it be fine. Using the scriptures, not using the scriptures. That's Zen. That's going beyond the teachings. Use them and not use them. Use them when it's useful, when it's not useful, use them again. Okay, so this is a song. The words are by Johnny Mercer. Excuse me, Johnny, I'm changing your words. And the music is by Harold Arlen. And excuse me, Harold, I'm changing the music. Okay, so here it is, my version of this thing.

[60:59]

I'm going to meet you Like nobody's met you Come rain or come shine High is the mountain And deep is the river Come rain or come shine I guess when you met me It was just one of those things But don't ever bet me Because I'm gonna be true to you If you let me You're gonna meet me Like nobody's met me Come rain or come shine Happy together, unhappy together And won't it be fine Using the scriptures, not using the scriptures And won't it be fine The days may be cloudy or sunny We're in or we're out of the money But I'm with you always

[62:04]

I'm with you Rain or shine applause May our intention Equally enter every place With the true merit Of God's way Beings are numerous I love to save them How or is this unknown or beyond Did you say you have your own axis? My own answer Your own answer? Yeah I thought maybe you said you had your own axis No, my own answer is Is that beyond

[63:07]

Well, can I say something? Yeah If you have your own answer You're kind of not in a good position To find what's beyond It's the cusp I have to stay on the cusp But I don't know how to The cusp of On the edge On the edge of the beyond and reality There's this Well, beyond isn't Well, anyway I think you also said earlier How do you realize this beyond In an ordinary situation? How can Yeah, is this beyond Comes into the reality But then when the beyond comes into This unknown is in the reality Then it's known And it's this known and unknown And can this unknown Be at the same time in the known? Yeah So there's certain things you think you know Like you kind of know you're in this room But could there also be an unknown

[64:10]

Right here with Your sense that you know you're in this room And I would say yes So like I think of like Dancing or singing, you know If you're dancing You might have some sense of Oh, I'm doing a dance And you kind of know you're doing a dance And then maybe suddenly you realize That there's a dance going on That's not really the dance you're doing And before you had that sense You weren't really dancing You were just dreaming of dancing And you thought your dream of dancing Was the dance And suddenly you realize That your dream of the dance Isn't really the dance The real dance is beyond your ideas of dancing And that's the actual dance And you somehow wake up to it Just like real religion The real point of religion is

[65:12]

When we go beyond our ideas of religion Religions come from some place But their form is Doesn't plumb their source But there's a way If you can learn to be flexible And you know not so fixed In the form of the religion Or the form of the dance You open to the For example, you open to the danger Around the form of the religion Or the form of the dance Like for example, tango There's a danger of falling down Or offending your partner Or missing out on the fun of the dance There's all those dangers But there's also If you open to that And relax with that You open to the actual opportunity of the dance Which is not Is not either partner's idea of the dance So the nice thing about tango for example Is that it's It's not one person getting up

[66:14]

And doing her or his idea of the dance You have to do it in a meeting And like I also use the example of I saw this case of A meeting between Isaac Stern Do you know that person? He's a violinist A great violinist Who I think died not too long ago But like 20 years ago He went to China To teach violin To Chinese musicians Particularly young musicians This was right after the Cultural Revolution I think When the only musicians in China Were young Basically because The Cultural Revolution kind of eliminated A generation of musicians Almost none of them left Either they were Forced out of the work Or destroyed So he was teaching these young people And this one young man He's playing the violin

[67:14]

And he's playing it in front of A big group of people And he's very good You know He The form My idea of My idea of playing the violin And he was doing a very good job His idea he was doing a very good job And most people's idea He was very good But he was in The idea of playing the violin And Isaac Stern came over to him And he was good enough So that he could play the violin Well with having this big teacher Talking to him at the same time 3,000 people watching him Plus this world famous violinist Talking to him Yelling at him actually So he could hear him over the music And he could continue to play Without mistakes So Isaac Stern says Sing! You're not The music Your violin isn't singing So Isaac Stern starts singing to him And most people think Well violins don't sing, right?

[68:16]

But the teacher said sing And the teacher started singing And he moved beyond The violin kept playing And no mistakes were made But it changed from this Being limited by this form It started to spiral into the realm Which was real, what music is Which is beyond any form It's beyond the form of music And you could feel it You could experience This moving beyond And of course this boy Had never seen this world And also he did this With this other person And Isaac Stern also got to Go with him The great teacher got to go With the great student Beyond anybody's idea Of what music is And one time I was listening To another Chinese musician Yo-Yo Ma And I sat a really close seat Like I was, you know,

[69:19]

Five feet, ten feet away from him And he's playing And of course he doesn't Make mistakes usually But he's, you know, very good But I had this distinct feeling Like I couldn't tell That he was good I couldn't like say Well, that's beautiful Or that's... Sometimes I can feel like that Oh, this is really beautiful music Or this is really God, this guy's really Expert cellist But what he was doing Was beyond any judgment I couldn't judge him And it was kind of like sad I couldn't like say Well, this is really good I just had to be here With this guy doing Which I didn't know What he was doing But I had this very strong take That with him More than almost any musician I'd ever seen I've seen some musicians Who are not very good So of course then I think Oh, they're not very good And I think they're good I think they're not very good And I think they're not very good Or they're good

[70:19]

And I think they're good But I think they're actually good I think that's what they actually are But he was not really good or bad He was so much what he was That I couldn't really say He was good or bad And I kind of missed out On losing that world Of good and bad Or expert and expert And I had to go live In this world where he lives Which is like not It's beyond It's beyond like good and bad It's music rather than My idea of music And I kind of wanted To go back to my idea Of hearing really great music Yo-yo Ma in person Right up close When you get really close To him like that And you're like right there With him Sorry Too close for comfort Too close for like You can get a hold of it But at the same time I felt like I really met him And I learned something

[71:19]

About what music really is Being with this person Who's beyond Who's so much what he is That he's beyond What he appears to be I couldn't put him In any category But I think people farther away Probably thought He was really, really good If you get far away from people You can think they're really good And you think that's really true That's really what they are And then people say They're no good And you say Oh no, that's not true You know Maybe you do But we want to like If somebody comes up And says your best friend's a jerk You kind of go Hmm, is that so? And your best friend being you Of course You're a jerk Hmm, is that so? Hmm Well, what else is new today? Okay Yes Hi

[72:20]

Hi I'd like to ask you to explore a little bit the topic You've been talking a lot about going beyond forms And finding the transmission outside of the sutras Yes, right But I think my sense is that there is actually a very strong value In dedicating oneself to the form In order to be able to go beyond it Right Maybe we can't expect to get to that level beyond it Unless we have immersed ourselves in the form first And explored it Sorry I didn't make that point today But that's right It's hard to go beyond a form Before you like totally know what it's like To experience the form in your limited story way So you have to really be into the story Before you can like feel the dangers around the story

[73:20]

Like that you're going to lose your really good story You have to be really into the form Before you can really feel the specific Like a form that you're vaguely aware of You know, you don't really know If you haven't really taken up a form There's not much danger with the form It's hard to feel the danger with the form Like if somebody tells me You know, you're really a very poor pianist I feel like, well, okay I mean, I really don't even I play so little that if somebody says it to me I really don't know what they're talking about Because nobody's ever heard me play Except actually my daughters heard me play Because we did the Suzuki Method like 20 years ago But if I really got into playing And really knew And then somebody makes a comment Then I can feel the dangers around my form So I think you're right You have to... So in the story of the guy Who really was an expert on the scriptures When that woman quoted him the scripture He knew what she was talking about So then she said

[74:21]

Well, what mind are you going to use? Since you can't get a hold of any minds What mind are you going to use to be refreshed? What mind will be refreshed? Because he knew the scriptures so well She could get him She could show him he was stuck And then the next teacher Without even talking about the scriptures Because he was so into the scriptures That teacher could release him from the scriptures And show them the meaning of the scriptures Which he was an expert at So yes, we usually have to get into a form Before we can actually go beyond it If I could just add one thing on here I was in the last practice period at City Center And we were studying this one particular poem The Shinshin Reimu The whole premise is really kind of like Non-duality Don't have preferences Don't judge I'm sure you're familiar with it

[75:22]

And I find myself Becoming very attached to the poems of Buddhism Yes And sometimes I feel like I almost have to forgive myself For liking the forms It's okay, you're just human You're going to like these things Or not like them You're going to like them Somebody else is not going to like them Not liking is also attached to them So attaching to the forms For an unenlightened person is essential Because otherwise You don't find out you're attached What? Pardon? As in what? You think I'm unenlightened? No, I don't think you're unenlightened But if you'd like to, I could think that I'm just telling you For these other people that aren't enlightened If they work with a form They will have some attachment to it And the attachment can take the form of Liking it or not liking it

[76:23]

But you have to attach to it Because otherwise People don't have any experiences Without attachment usually If they don't attach to something They don't think it's happening So attachment comes with For unenlightened people It comes with the form So the form gives you a way To discover your attachment And then you can forgive yourself For having attachment to the form You can forgive yourself For liking the forms And forgiving yourself For not liking the forms In other words Another way to say this is That whatever appears Whatever form appears We have some resistance to it We can't just like Meet it without any grasping We resist the true meeting With whatever is happening in our life We either like try to grab it Or try to get away from it But just to meet it Completely openly Is something we're trying to work towards So when we first meet it

[77:25]

And get close to it We start to resist it And the way to resist it Is to try to control it So that's part of the deal And so forgive yourself For liking or disliking the forms Yes And also you Hopefully you will be forgiven By the people you're practicing with For liking or disliking the forms That's part of the deal Yes Yes Speaking of forms That tool, the whisk Very cool device From the same words A whisk broom Maybe whiskers It's the first time I've seen it It looks like it may have some history You kind of heard a little bit about that I had a couple of questions Well one history The history is his story, right?

[78:26]

So his story about the whisk And also we can hear Her story about the whisk But anyway his story about the whisk Is that Long, once upon a time There was a world Where people didn't have screens On their houses Like you know In Egypt You know the pharaohs They lived in these nice palaces But they didn't have screens around them And so all these insects came in And were bugging the pharaohs So they have these people With these palm, big big palm leaves, right? So they're not only cooling They're cooling the king off Or the queen off But also shooing the insects That are bugging The semi-divine being And then lesser, you know Like the priests But also get people with smaller fans To blow their insects away Now you could also

[79:27]

Have people killing the insects The king would have enough people That they'd be individually annihilated But in some ways It's more gentle Just to sort of fan them away So it's basically It's a fly whisk originally That would be used to make it So the teacher could give a talk Without going like this You know So then it moves to become A symbol of You know, a leader or a teacher But it's originally Just to kind of like To gently invite the insects To get away from your face And then once it turns into A symbol of authority Then it's a teaching device It's a device you can use You say, I got the stick You want I'm the teacher What do you think of my You want the stick? And so there's a lot of Zen stories Where people raise their whisk And say, do you understand What this is? It's a teaching device Like, am I saying that

[80:30]

I'm the big authority figure? What are you going to do with that? Are you going to fall for that? Are you going to challenge that? And what's this whisk anyway? So it's a teaching device But originally, you could say It was an insect interaction device The other thing that would be interesting to That's his story I'd appreciate some other stories If you can think of them To see those two Chinese symbols Where can we see them? I would take a guess Perhaps you have done that Done those symbols yourself You mean the characters? Yes Where can you see them? Yes Well, I guess I could calligraph it And post it on my website Or I could calligraph it And then it could be stenciled

[81:31]

And we could shine a light through it And flash it onto the sky In the fog Over Green Gulch So look in the sky above Green Gulch Tomorrow night And you may see The Chinese character for crisis Wouldn't that be nice Just to put the big Great crisis in the sky For everyone to meditate on? What? You must have read Harry Potter I must have read Harry Potter Now I just want to say something about How many people have not read Harry Potter? Heretics Basically So the problem with you not reading Harry Potter Is that you won't like to hear about this bumper sticker I'm sorry And the arch villain of Harry Potter The supreme villain is named Voldemort So there's a bumper sticker that says

[82:32]

Republicans for Voldemort Now I hesitate to say that Because people might think that That there's a put down of Republicans But there kind of is When I heard that though I thought Would it be as funny if you say Democrats for Voldemort? And I think almost probably How many people who have read Harry Potter Are Republicans here? I think Harry Potter is kind of a Democrat kind of It's more of a Democrat type of book So the other people who haven't read Harry Potter How many are Republicans? This is a bad place to ask I'm sorry Also you're probably scared to say Because people would think you're for Voldemort However Here's another part of the

[83:33]

Here's another part of the Here's another part of the story Okay? Voldemort is Voldemort killed his father He killed his mother too? No He killed his mother? He killed his father He killed his mother And he killed a lot of other people And he tried to kill Harry Potter Many times He's not a nice guy in certain ways But he's a very powerful shaman Very powerful wizard And in the recent movie Of Harry Potter He was played by I think by Ralph Fiennes Is it Ralph or Rafe? He's played by Rafe And Rafe Fiennes Did such a nice job of playing Voldemort That some people Some Democrats Are starting to like Voldemort There's a danger This is a danger That you'll start That you'll start to actually Feel some love for the arch

[84:34]

The arch evil one Wouldn't that be like Isn't that dangerous? You know But Buddha Buddha loves Voldemort Buddha loves Voldemort So if you love Voldemort Especially if you're a Democrat And you love Voldemort If you're a Republican And you love Voldemort You might just be Stuck in your You know Political position But if you're a Democrat If you're a Democrat And you can love Voldemort That means you're going beyond Being a Democrat And you're heading into Republican waters So Democrats should be able to turn And become Republicans Can you Democrats Become Republicans? I know some Democrats That I'm closely related to Who are They cannot understand How a person could be a Republican And she knows It does not Buddhist Buddhist Democrats should Learn to be Republicans

[85:35]

See this is This is like you know That's too No no not that That's too much That cannot That's impossible The truth cannot be There's a limits Yes? Mort Mort means death And Voldemort means Flight of death Yeah Flying death Yes? Or flight from death Yes? I think that

[86:51]

The more you The more you Open to And you know Remember the danger Surrounding you The more fun you'll have But the temporary Initiation Into opening To danger As I said earlier Might be that you become Frightened So It's just like You know One of the things I do Is I sometimes swim In the cold water Of the San Francisco Bay And especially in the winter When I stand at the edge Of the water I think this is insane You know I'm afraid of what will happen to me If I go into the water It's dangerous You can get You can die in that water If you get too cold And you can You're also in danger Of feeling Having painful sensations From the cold You're also And I'm in danger Of having a heart attack Hypothermia Eaten by sharks Run over by boats Getting hepatitis From the water You know

[87:52]

There's a lot of dangers Out there in the water However It's also danger On the beach Standing there in the cold In your bathing suit There's a danger That if you go back From the water Into the club People say What are you chicken? The more you open But then you go into the water You know And meet the danger And there's a lot of Opportunities there too And so for a lot of people That swim in the bay That's their religion Because that's the way That they experience A little bit each day Danger And when you Voluntarily open to danger And sometimes people Have to do really Dangerous things To open to danger Which I don't recommend I think it's better to like Just Don't do something dangerous To get in touch with danger Just Wherever you are Open to the dangers Rather than try to put yourself In an especially dangerous Position Which is fine It's just that

[88:52]

When you leave it Then you maybe say Well now I'm not in danger anymore Which is not fine To think you're not in danger Is closing to something That's there We are in danger At any moment Death can come At any moment Avian virus can come At any moment Hatred And ill will can come At any moment We can be unskillful Which is even worse than Anything that anybody Can do to us Is what we might do To someone else At any moment We might do something harmful To somebody It's a dangerous situation And to say It's not dangerous Is closing to that Side of life But life isn't just dangerous Life is also An inconceivably vast Field of possibilities Unlimited Possibilities For happiness And freedom And love That's also there So if I close To danger And feel safe I close to

[89:53]

What I really want to have in life But when I first open to Danger I may feel I'm not having Such a good time For a while And after a while Like going in the water When you first go in the water It doesn't seem Especially when it's really cold It doesn't seem exactly like fun And I try to go in Really slowly So I can really feel To try not to get ahead Of the sensation Of this really cold water Touching my skin Like I find Even going into 80 degree water I find cold Actually Because my body is Above 80 And going into 70 And 60 And 50 And 40 It gets more and more Kind of like Kind of unpleasant Not pleasant It isn't like Oh Now If you're really hot And you go into Like 80 degree water It's like Oh Or maybe even

[90:54]

70 degree water Oh But if you're really hot And you go into 40 degree water Or 50 degree water It usually isn't Oh It's more like Oh And if you're cold already And then you go into Cold water It's kind of A negative sensation Plus it seems dangerous Your body says Is this really okay? Is somebody around here crazy? And then you open to that And you open to that And pretty soon You're fine Except that the one problem Is if you get really cold You start You start feeling like It's not dangerous again You don't just get used to the danger You start thinking This isn't dangerous And that's a sign You're getting hypothermia I think this is really Warm and cozy out here Ah Everything's golden and yellow I think I'm almost dead Freezing is One of the best ways to go Because you

[91:55]

You know Usually you go into A nice warm dream Before you die Like people often dreaming They come back from Those situations That they were by a nice Warm fireplace Drinking hot chocolate But And then they come back And then it's It's very painful To recover your And I've gotten Close to that a few times I'm feeling really comfortable In the cold water And feel like And when I'm out there And I feel like God I could stay out here forever I think Oops Time to leave When you're first going You don't think Oh I could stay out here forever You think I don't know if I can stay out here Any longer I think it's time to go back Right now You stay a little longer And you feel like Oh it's okay And then you start to feel like Hey no problem at all Then you're getting On the edge of too much Like no danger anymore It's like So anyway When you're first starting

[92:56]

If you're If you think There's this much If you think There's this much danger And you're used to it Then you may feel Pretty comfortable And then when you see There's this much danger Twice as much There's an adjustment problem Then you adjust to that And then you see There's more danger So constantly opening To wider and wider Possibilities of danger And getting Calm Be calm with it And then you open To wider and wider Possibilities of freedom That's the proposal I make to you Yes Okay What is it? It's 12.30? Okay So I'm being pressured by this By the Green Gulch monsters To stop So Would you go beat her up please? They're not beating you up Why not? They want to go too

[93:56]

You want to have lunch? Okay I'll stop Remember Voldemort

[94:10]

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