I told this story many times that what attracted me to Zen was the conduct of Zen practitioners as described in stories that I heard or read. I was attracted to that conduct and I wanted to act like those people acted. I think at the time I said I want to be like them, but actually I think I wanted to act like them. Under similar circumstances I wanted to act like they acted. So we see, sometimes we see in this world, we see the activity of Buddha. And then if we see that and we wish to act that way too, this is like paying homage.

[01:04]

This is aligning ourselves with that action. We want our action to be like that action. This is like paying homage. And also it's a kind of worship. Do you see something so valuable there that you're willing to devote yourself and your action to that way? At least somewhat. And now we have this question which was raised towards the end of the morning or in the early afternoon about if you go to holiday events coming up and they're serving

[02:11]

rich food or perhaps perhaps they're serving bland food like tofu with no seasoning perhaps you go to some places like that but you might go to a place where they serve rich food and also they might serve alcohol and who knows what else some of your friends might offer and then what what would you What's the appropriate response? What's the response that would enact the Buddha at that time? So one could wonder that. One could try to remember not so much what Buddha would do, but what can I do that would be in alignment with Buddha? What could I do that would be me acting like the Buddha, not so much what the Buddha would do?

[03:18]

How could I enact that? So, if someone's offering you... What? What do you want to have them offer you? Red meat. Huh? Cheesecake. Cheesecake? Red? Shoho's cheesecake. Shoho's cheesecake? Red meat? and red wine. So you go to a party and they have Shoho's cheesecake, red meat and red wine. So what kind of action would, do you think, enact your relationship with all beings? What would that be? Any ideas? No, thank you. Or, thank you. No, thank you. Thank you, but I'd like something.

[04:24]

Could you give me some water? Or could I have tea? And I don't know, how do you feel about the red meat? Is there some way to say no, thank you? Is it true? Yeah. So go stuffed. Potatoes are delicious. I'd like to concentrate on vegetables tonight. Pardon? If you're at a buffet, or you're at a sit-down dinner. It's a buffet. It's different than, yeah. So let's say it's a buffet, and let's say that there's no animal products in the buffet, but the buffet is very extensive, has like 30 or 40 dishes on it.

[05:29]

Then what is the way of acting that's in alignment with Buddha? Just a few dishes. Just a few dishes, maybe. How about each dish you come to, asking what would be a beneficial amount? How much food would be the amount that you'd like to actually, that you think would really be good for everybody? Is it that simple? No? How? Why not? What's the difficulty? For me, the difficulty, and it's me, is I don't want to stick my nose up in the air and say I'm different from you. You don't want to stick your nose up, so... It's how to include myself in the festivities without, you know, without compromising what I feel like I want to take into account.

[06:38]

Okay, so we're having some festivities now. Are you including yourself in them? And you're not sticking your nose up? Oh, so when you don't want something, how do you say that without sticking your nose up at it? It depends. I think that there are some things that judgments can look around, and I do have a lot of time refusing to eat, and I have decided, and I don't know if this is because of the decision I made, I've decided not to absolutely refuse alcohol because I feel like I need to relax a little bit around that issue. Can you receive alcohol and then not drink it? Is that okay with your friends? Or I can sip it. Or you can sip it? And that feels okay. I wouldn't do that with meat because I don't have a thing. I don't know. I mean, it's not logical. With meat you don't feel comfortable taking a little bit?

[07:40]

Yeah. How about saying, I don't feel comfortable eating meat? Can you say that without sticking your nose up at the person who's offering it? I'd have to say it quite apologetically. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's possible to really feel that the person's offering you something that they really feel generous about and you really appreciate their generosity, but that this doesn't work well for me. Like, I know some people who just, like, they don't have enzymes for some of this stuff. It just doesn't work for their body. I think it's possible to say, well, I really appreciate your generosity and I festively want to tell you that for my body it's like vegetables. Like I also know some people who when they eat meat they instantly get constipated.

[08:44]

You know about those people? Yeah. Meat, it does not have much roughage. Isn't that surprising? It's not a roughage thing. Whereas kale and chard and things like that are excellent for most people's digestive process, meat is not on the list for people who have, you know, problems with their intestines. I saw this movie one time with these guys in a car and somebody said, did you know that the average white American male has 40 pounds of meat permanently stuck in his intestines. I don't know if that's true. I don't think so. But anyway, just this idea of all this meat kind of stuck there in the intestines in various little pockets places over the years. I could say that at the party and not worry about it. And not have a problem the following year. I have a... I mean, I think if you use that kind of idea that you're sticking your nose up in the air, I mean, what if a group of people are killing a group of people and you feel it's arrogant to walk away from that?

[10:02]

I mean, it seems... If you have that premise, it doesn't really... It's not applicable across the boards, so it might be applicable. I mean, it seems like... It has a hole in it or something. But wouldn't it be good to be able to... to express yourself in opposition to cruelty without placing yourself above the people that you're expressing it towards. That's what I'm saying. I think there's a way... I mean, the way I look at it is those people are authentically being genuinely generous, and I can be authentically myself and honest, and it's a gift I give them back. It's like the gift they're giving me. Yeah, but can you also be self-righteous and put yourself above them? I could do that, but I would definitely try not to.

[11:06]

Right. I think we're all trying not to. That's one of the Bodhisattva precepts is don't put yourself above other people, even if you're in a moral disagreement with them. Just say, for me, you know, I oppose this. So how to do that without putting myself above the person who is doing something I oppose? This is like something to learn. This is the seventh major bodhisattva, prohibitive bodhisattva precept is putting yourself above others. Like, I think this is good and I feel good about myself thinking it's good. Like, I think it's good to be kind to beings, and I oppose cruelty. And to say that without putting down someone who you think is being cruel, how can you do that? It's really something to learn, right?

[12:07]

What about without trying to convince others of one's own view? I think it's okay to try to convince others of your own view, too, as a gift. I have a gift to you, I'm trying to convince you of my view, but I don't do that to try to get the thing I'm trying to, you know, have happen. That was especially difficult, though. Yeah, it is especially difficult to say, I want you to stop that as a gift, rather than to say, I want you to stop that to get you to stop. One of those forms is a form of grasping, because you were speaking about grasping before. Right. That's right. You sometimes can get people to do what you want by lying. If you lie, you think maybe you have a better chance of getting them to do what they want.

[13:13]

And if you give gifts, in the long run, people will join the gift-giving, but in the short run, you don't know what they'll do. If you ask someone to stop doing something as a gift, they may not stop doing it, partly because they want to see if it really was a gift. And if it really was, and they don't do what you ask them to do, you still feel good that you practice giving with them, and when they don't do it, you don't hate them. Probably. Yes? For myself, you can't change other people. It's violence. You can't change other people. To me, that's violence, to try and challenge people. You can't challenge yourself. I kind of think twice about trying to push my views on other people. I've also been thinking about the myth situation too.

[14:20]

I have been working on the lines of mindfulness. You know, it's about acknowledging where your food comes from and remembering that. There was a time when I was vegetarian for 15 years and it was good and right and so on. But then I had to shift back to a diet of health reasons and it's proved to be beneficial. But it's about moderation and that's the other point. I guess it's my point for me about moderation. You know, with alcohol, red meat or any of these things, it's about no harm. I try to think about that in these situations. You try to practise non-harming. Non-harming, yes. And if there's harm, I mean, there's a whole... There's industries out there producing naked, barb-arid bicycles, and I'm mindful about that, and I'm very grateful for those wives, too.

[15:27]

Also, with meat, you could take a very small portion and not eat it, and then when the dog comes to the dog, or one of the hostesses' attention is someplace else. Or you can just tell the hostess, oh, look over there, and put the meat in your pocket. That would just get you down. A lot of possibilities. Yes? I, a couple of years ago, gave up. Stopped drinking, stopped eating meat, and then vegan, and stopped caffeine. And one of the things I realized pretty quickly was my attachment to the people and associations that were associated with those things, because they started dropping away, and it enhanced your sense of separation. You were that person who was different because you felt like you were the... It's going to sound like I like to sound very preset, but you felt like you were the one sane person in a sane situation.

[16:38]

But it was hard to let go of that. Hard to let go of what? Who you'd known for decades. Oh, oh, yeah. Tricky buddies and others. What happened? I've tried earth rush in moderation. But I think it proved to be the wrong bunch. Because I read a book called, similar to what you're saying, I read a book called Yoga to Eating. And part of it talks about how food is processed. And really to think about each time you pick a bite, if anything breaks, what are you saying yes to? And that gets into how something was killed. But when it comes to meat or seafood or anything, I think, well, that's good for everybody except the victim. Like, I can't get around that. But I think that what I've found, though, if you do try alcohol with moderation, it leads to meat with moderation, wine with moderation.

[17:41]

You know, between the sentence story, of course, and the person with the best intentions having the first drink, it ended up, I think, there was adultery and killing and all of it in there. Yeah, Elizabeth. I'm very interested if there are practices to help with self-righteousness. You brought up a question, how do we learn? Are there practices? Yeah, one of the practices of being self-righteous is get some friends and tell them that you're trying to practice with your self-righteousness, and then tell them about what you think is right. and ask them how they feel about the way you talked. You know? And invite them to keep giving you feedback if when you express what you think is a good way to do things, if they sense, even if they agree with you, they might agree with you, like, we agree with you, Elizabeth, but you asked for feedback if when you say certain things that you think would be good to do, if it has a self-righteous...

[18:53]

tone to it, and we totally agree with you, but the tone actually was not good. I mean, it had this self-righteous tone, or it had a sense of being superior to those who do not follow this way. So ask people to tell you, but that's one way. And also see if you can notice it yourself, you know, like your face is getting hot or you feel your face tensing up or your fist clenching and so on and so forth, the hair in the back of your neck standing up, the hair on your spine standing up. I want to confess, because I think it's going to reveal myself as well, that there was a line in a play from years ago, The Heidi Chronicle, it's Wendy Wasserstein, where Heidi says that she's worthless and superior. And I thought that was a very accurate sense of myself.

[19:57]

And then now the way I feel is that my worth is coming up and the superior is coming down, but So it's a bit of a teeter-totter, but I don't feel quite like this. I still feel that I flip between the two. So I wanted to confess that. Between worthless and superior. Yes. Okay, thank you. I want to practice like that. You want to practice like that? Did you say? Yeah, I want to. I want to practice like that. Yeah, there's a lot of, in most religious communities, there's lots of self-righteousness. And, you know, among gangsters, the level of self-righteousness is somewhat lower. That's my experience, which is one of the attractive things about being in a gang is that you don't have so much of that problem. Well, the chicken thing is... You know, somebody's chicken if they won't... It's like an inverted righteousness in gang behavior.

[21:09]

If you won't participate in their values, then are you going to turn up chicken? Not bad enough for them, in some ways. And that's also how it occurs to me. Yeah, I'm not saying there's no self-righteousness, it just doesn't seem to be as pervasive. Like, their self-righteousness might be that it's good to be really tough and aggressive, and I'm better at being aggressive than any of you. But you know, now that I talk about it, I don't know if they really believe it so much as people in religious communities believe that they're better than the people outside. But anyway, we have to watch out for this. And the same for not just me personally, but the practice in general, that we think that whatever practice, compassion for example, that we think is really a good idea, and I think it's really a good idea, and you think it's really a good idea, and we all think it's a good idea, and then we have a strong bonding around what a good idea it is.

[22:25]

And then our consciousness drops because we all agree. And those of us who have a little bit different opinion about it, maybe be a little quiet about that. Because they don't talk about compassion the same way we do. Most of us do, so then they'd be quiet so that they can join the bonding, which is very powerful and useful. But then your consciousness drops, and then in that lowered consciousness you start to even though you're devoted to compassion, you start to kind of feel uncomfortable about people who aren't devoted to compassion the same way you are. And you start actually hating them. Can't help it. Because they're different from this lowered consciousness you have. So it's a big danger of group practice and group religion, which I think, again, we shouldn't think we're avoiding that either. So we're self-righteous, and to the extent that we agree, our consciousness is lowering.

[23:29]

Now, to the extent that you all disagree with me, your consciousness is doing pretty well. But disagreement is not so easily, you know, it's harder to build a monastery when everybody disagrees about whether they should build it or not or how they should build it. So it's hard to accomplish a lot when you have a group of people who have a very high level of consciousness and are very aware of how they disagree with each other and don't put themselves above each other. So you really respect these people who disagree with you. So in a case like that, we can get almost nothing done. However, we're living in peace and harmony at a high level of conscious functioning. It's just that we can't ever agree on doing anything. We just appreciate everybody and just sit there, you know, beaming at each other. Whereas here, as you know, we had a work period today because you guys agreed.

[24:34]

So you got a lot done. Thank you. Except for Bernard and Luminous all couldn't find the electrical equipment. So that didn't happen. But you got some rocks removed. That was good. I have another comment. I hope we're not going to be self-righteous about work period. Let me know. I thought you'd never ask. She's big on work period. I'm what? You're kind of big on work period. I'm big on work periods. She dreams about no good work periods. Don't you? Plus. Meat and alcohol and on like that. I've had an opportunity to call to RSVP and say, I don't drink, or it depends on which direction I feel that in, to say, would you be comfortable?

[25:43]

I would really love to come, or I wouldn't, but I would love to come. will you be comfortable with me, especially if it's a sit-down dinner, and that's the hard time, I think, when it's a sit-down dinner and somebody has prepared and that's the dish. So to be able to say to them in advance, would they be comfortable with you there, that to me seems like it might open, it has for me, open dialogue. And I've so far not bumped into people minding. In fact, they say there's lots of other things that I can do. And I don't tell people, you know, I don't tell people I'm a vegetarian, but, you know, somehow being a Zen priest, they kind of sort of think maybe I am. So they usually do not give me that without asking. And they often just go right ahead and don't prepare. So I don't know if you people want to become Zen priests to solve this problem, but...

[26:46]

But then there was this time in Japan when I was visiting a famous Zen master and it was his birthday and the Japanese Zen priests were, at the encouragement of their teacher, were offering us beer and sake. And we were, you know, we accepted some, and then we just set the drink down, but then they come over and try to get us to drink it. So then we, so they pressured us and pressured us, so we drank it. And I was there with Richard Baker, the person who was Abbott before me at Zen Center, and he turned to me and he said, if you keep accepting, they'll leave me alone. They'll stop hassling me. And it's true. When I just kept accepting, they left him alone.

[27:52]

They stopped pressuring him to drink. So I just kept... They gave me the alcohol, and I... And then I set it down. They pressured me to drink it, so I drank it. So I just went through that over and over and over. And then he didn't have to drink anymore. Did you sing any songs? Pardon? Did you sing any songs? Did I what? Did you sing any songs? I did not sing songs, no. But towards the end, then after that, all that happened, then the Zen master, whose birthday party it was, was going to do some calligraphy. which involved me standing up and walking across the room. And I did stand up and walk across the room. And I watched the calligraphy and then when the calligraphy was over, we left the temple and went to visit a woman's monastery down the hill.

[28:53]

And I wasn't drunk. I wasn't intoxicated. There was a lot of alcohol in me, but I was not intoxicated. in my view. And nobody else seemed to think I was intoxicated either. I wasn't trying to get intoxicated and I wasn't trying not to get intoxicated. At first I was trying not to get intoxicated because I thought that would be embarrassing. That's what they wanted to do, I think. They kind of wanted to see if they could get us intoxicated. They kind of wanted that to happen. I think that was their thing. Is that your story? That's my story, yeah. They definitely wanted me to drink a great deal, but I really did not want to get drunk. Especially, I thought, since I was protecting my boss, that would be good. But that doesn't happen very often. People usually do not pressure me to drink or eat meat.

[29:56]

So I don't have that problem. But in this case they did and it wasn't a problem. And then I went to visit a year later and they did the same thing. And again, I did not get drunk. However, after I was, after I finished drinking this enormous amount of alcohol, I did walk from West Kyoto to East Kyoto to West Kyoto in the summer heat. I think I kind of needed to do that just to get it up, but I didn't get high. That was not what was going on. It was just my blood changed tremendously. But I wasn't trying to do anything one way or another. So nothing happened in that regard. Don't you have any story where you did fall on your face Yeah, when I was in high school, I never drank in high school with my friends.

[31:02]

My friends went drinking. I did not go with them. I didn't have drinking buddies. Just didn't do that. But when I was in college, I did try drinking. I tried drinking to get drunk, and I did get drunk. Yeah, and I didn't like it. So I didn't do it after that. But I'm also not trying not to get drunk. But nobody, except for those two cases, those are the only two times anybody tried to get me to drink that I can think of offhand. Do you think in Japan there could have been a skillful way to actually say no and might have helped those people? even in a culture where you're not supposed to ever say no? Yeah, probably. I didn't see it. I was trying to say no. From the beginning, they put it down there, pour this thing in and just leave it, you know?

[32:07]

You should be able just to leave a full cup, right? Just leave it. But they wouldn't do it. I could tell them, I could say, you know, get out of the room, go away, leave the temple. I could have said that, but I couldn't see a way to tell them to stop hassling me, which they were doing in such a friendly way with the encouragement of their teacher. So it just seemed like there was a cultural interface. I couldn't stop them. I guess if I would have done it over and over... In a friendly way. In a friendly way, but I wasn't too good at being friendly. Anybody else have any feedback on the day? I'd like to thank you all for your wholehearted presence. I'm happy to see that in this day here you actually were able to sit quite a bit, and some of you even found it somewhat difficult, which is nice.

[33:19]

And I also want to thank Eileen for organizing the day. Thank you so much, Eileen, and making all kinds of goodies which we festively interacted with. And Michelle, thanks for making the cheesecake. Did you like it? You didn't have any? There's some left. You might want to try it. And I was thinking of offering a one-day sitting, a kind of New Year's sitting on the 5th of January. So if you'd like to come, would you let Eileen know that you're interested? And I just want to share with you, I love going through the different light patterns at Noah Bowden like now. It's dark and cold and earlier this fall it was warm and sunny and it's very touching to me to experience the changing here in this building with you.

[34:36]

Anything else anybody wishes to say tonight? I have one more question about the Dharmakaya. Can I ask? Yeah, a question about the Dharmakaya, yeah. Is it like a container? I mean, is the mind... I'm not understanding the relationship of the Dharmakaya and the mind. Is it sort of like a container within which the mind is interacting or enacting? It's... Well, you could say it's... Sometimes it has been called the Buddha mind, the Dharmakaya, It's this great relationship which is totally ungraspable but whose essence is compassion because it includes all beings. So it's a kind of mind. But it's not like our individual minds which arise with our body interacting with the world. It's not like that kind of mind. However, we are totally included in it

[35:42]

and our life is a contribution to it. But it's a relationship. It's not the elements of the relationship. It's the total relationship of all the elements included in it. And all the elements are all beings. That's the Dharmakaya. I was trying to understand how, in a way, like my mind tries to understand it, but I don't know, but somehow it seems like my mind is not being able to really understand it. That's right. It's not, it's like, well, I use the example of Sashin. When two people are dancing, or more than two people, but two people are dancing, at a certain point that there's a dance happening.

[36:45]

But the dance isn't either one of the people. And the dance isn't what the two people think the dance is. And if you're watching them dance, the dance isn't what you think they're doing either. Although you see the dance, the dance is there, but what you see is not the dance. You're actually seeing the dance, but your vision of the dance is not the dance. And the dancer's vision or perception of the dance isn't the dance. But they have perceptions, and their perceptions are part of the dance. So the Dharmakaya is not something we recognize. It's a state. It's our actual state of reality. And we can't get outside it to... to look at it. I mean, we can get outside to look at it, but what we're looking at is our version of it, not it. It is our actual ultimate reality of life, which we are living in.

[37:52]

It's the existential reality of Buddha. And some people would say, I guess, God. But it's not something you can recognize. That's not it. It's something you are living, and through practice it's something you can realize. And you realize it partly by enacting it in the world where you can perceive things. And as the enactment becomes more and more thorough, you realize what you're enacting. Even though your enactment isn't it, your enactment isn't separate from it. But if your enactment, which isn't separate from it, does not fully devote itself to the enactment, then you block the realization of it, even though you're living in it. So we must practice in order to realize it. And one way that we talk about practicing is giving.

[38:53]

So Dharmakaya is totally giving, and the giving is so total that the giving is empty. It's empty of giver, receiver, and gift. You can't get a hold of the giver, receiver, or gift separate from each other because they're totally interpenetrating each other. With each interaction it's like that, and with all interactions it's like that. So it's a totally ungraspable process of infinite cosmic giving. full of giving, full of goodwill, full of ignorance too. But unless we practice giving, we do not realize the giving. Unless we practice the Dharmakaya by forms and ceremonies, we don't realize the Dharmakaya. being limited beings we exile ourselves from it unless we give our limited being to it.

[40:00]

Okay? You're welcome. May our intention equally extend to every being and place with true merit.

[40:18]

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