Some people weren't here before. Right? Like, you know, you haven't been here before. And you haven't... Doc Marr hasn't been here before. And, uh... That's it, huh? Everybody else... Do you have some technique for memorizing names? Memorize. That's a good one. Yes, but then how do you remember them? Memorize. Just goes on like that. Looks like a good monk, but it just goes on like that. So that's kind of, for the newcomers, that's kind of the way we do Zen practice, right? People say, is there some technique for doing Zen practice?

[01:02]

What's a technique for Zen practice? Zen practice. So that's pretty much it. But we go on like that. So the point is to have some continuity in such a simple way. This is Kitty, just came in, and Jim. I just said all the other people's names. If you want a sample, let me know. Okay? So, this kind of practice is in Zen. This is actually kind of an abstract thing. You could abstractly explain that kind of practice, right? The kind of practice I just talked about. For example, would you want to try to abstract it? Do you want to try to abstract it or express it abstractly? Some abstract philosophical expression of such a practice? That was a hint.

[02:07]

Please, go ahead, if you want. You don't have to. I'll do it if you don't. Some abstract expression of Zen practice. I'm remembering names. Remembering names was the way... Kip just said, how do I remember names? The way I remember those names is the same way we practice, I practice Zen. Do you see a similarity in the two ways? Yes. I have something that comes to me about that. It has... about being mindful and present for what's right in front of you and taking it in before you move on. That's how I... There's an abstract expression. Okay? Do you understand? What you say was somewhat abstract. I don't feel abstraction. No, but it's a general statement, right? About how to practice. But there was another... What she said is good.

[03:13]

Some other abstract... You know, it doesn't have to be abstract, but probably it will be. I would guess that whatever you say will be. Some expression, some... Say what I just said, what Zen practice is, or how I remember things. Zen practice is something we do together. That's not very abstract, but that's okay. Monday night koan class. Monday night, go on class. That's also not very abstract. That's not abstract, but that's fine. Doing what's before you. Doing what's before you. That's abstract. But doing a cup of tea. But that's right. That's doing what's before you. Drinking a cup of tea, that's not abstract. But that's also correct. Doing what's before you. Monday night, go on class. Drinking a cup of tea, that's the same thing. If you say, how do I memorize? I say, drink a cup of tea. That would be not an abstract answer. Stating a general principle in a very concrete way. That's what I think, that's the usual kind of, that's the usual, that's the kind of Zen way of talking, is to state a concrete, I mean, stating an abstract principle in a concrete way.

[04:19]

So, for example, you say, how do you practice Buddhism? Eastern mountains move over the water. That's kind of Zen way of saying what? Doing what's right in front of you. Also, I said, how would you describe such a practice in an abstract way? The practice of suchness is an abstract way of putting it. It's the practice of suchness. And as Dogen says, the practice of suchness, if you want to do the practice of suchness, you must do it without delay. In other words, the practice of suchness is not something you can go one, two, three, do it. The practice of suchness is when you go one, you did it. Get ready, you did it. Get set, you did it. There's no delay in it. So an abstract way to put it is It's a practice of just being ready. Okay? Now how about some concrete images to express the practice of suchness, the practice which you do without delay? Some concrete images? Eat dinner.

[05:25]

Eat dinner? Okay. Zazen. Zazen? I think that's abstract. Sitting still. Sitting still. Which is zazen, but zazen is a more abstract way of saying sitting still. Unless you mean, actually the za of zazen, if I translate it into English, sitting zen, then the zen part is the abstract part. So if you take away, if you just say za, and we could speak Japanese, then that would be good. Yes? Did you say something? Breathing. Breathing. Bowing. Bowling. Dry mouth growling stomach. Dry mouth growling stomach. Riding a bucking horse. Riding a bucking horse. Also riding a dead horse.

[06:30]

Or say, say something like, remarking that it is what is before you. And they're remarking. Speaking, remarking. Speaking, remarking, yes. Talking with your friends. Even about Zen. Problem is that when you start talking about Zen, you may lose track of what you're doing, you're just talking. Okay, well... Is everything? Hmm? Everything? Everything? What? Is everything not abstracted? Is everything not abstracted? Would you finish this sentence, please? That's it. Is everything not abstracted? Yeah. Everything's pretty abstract.

[07:36]

They're words. What? I thought his question was pretty abstract in a certain way, or maybe abstruse. Abstruse? Well, that's concrete. That's good. It's OK to be abstract. That's the Indian style. Indian Buddhism is a rather abstract expression. of the Buddha way. Because Indian people, Indian language, Sanskrit particularly, often the way that they put things is in an abstract way. I think if I thought of one example, someone say, a man goes to a store. I think someone would translate, in Sanskrit it would come out to be something like, A man comes to going to the store-ness," something like that. Anyway, a lot of concrete expressions in English would use an abstract noun to express themselves, and Indian Buddhism then takes this form.

[08:50]

But when it comes to China and becomes Zen, the expressions become more concrete. But the principle that these concrete images are carrying out are abstract principles of the teaching which started in India. I'm saying that because of the last case, we have a shout at the center of the case. And we also have eye. Another important ingredient in this case, the 13th case, is eyes. And so, an eye, like an eyeball, is a concrete symbol for an abstract philosophical concept. Now, what is the abstract philosophical concept that the eye is expressing? See? See?

[09:51]

No, seeing is not an abstract philosophical concept. Understanding? Suchness. Suchness is closer, but yeah, suchness. Light. And suchness is an abstract philosophical concept. Light is not an abstract philosophical concept. However, the eyes, the eye in this case, the dharma eye, the eye of truth, the eye, not the truth is rather abstract, but the eyeball, the eye, the pupil, the eye, That image is a concrete expression of suchness. So that's one... And what is such... What and how have we been talking about suchness? And how have we been talking about suchness? This is edible, right? I think it is. There's a story behind it. I don't know. Do you want to hear a story first? It's an animation story. It's got ink on it, but I think that'll be all right.

[10:53]

It's got an eye. It's got a... So, he said suchness. I agree. Now, what more can you say? What else is the I and a concrete image of that we've been studying? The eye is a concrete symbol for codependent arising. And a particular form of codependent arising, what kind of codependent arising is the eye the concrete symbol of? Yes? Can you say all the words for suchness? All the words for suchness? I can't find it in the dictionary. I don't know what... You mean in English dictionary? Yeah, English dictionary. So I don't know what to... Maybe you can't find... Maybe you might not be able to find thusness either. Thusness? is another word for thusness or suchness. It might not be an English word. Yeah, philosophically it would be a thing as it is. Nothing extra, just something as it is.

[11:57]

So, that's a hint about dependent co-arising. Dependent co-arising, which the eyeball is a symbol of, what kind of dependent co-arising is that? Hmm? Spontaneous? That's right, spontaneous. The eyeball is a concrete image for spontaneous dependent colorizing. Isn't that extra? Hmm? Isn't the spontaneous extra? Yeah, that's true. If you think of spontaneous in that way, then that's not what we mean by spontaneous. Spontaneous refers to... Dependent co-arising of the type that the eye is a concrete expression of. What kind of dependent co-arising is that? Perception? Perception is an example of dependent co-arising. Perceptions are dependent... Visual.

[13:02]

Visual is another example. This is a symbol of something which... This is a symbol of the concrete principle, which one of the examples of that concrete principle would be seeing or tasting or feeling. Well, dependently co-arisen suchness, he said suchness, but dependently co-arisen suchness is what the eye is a symbol of. The eye is not a symbol of dependently co-arisen birth and death. The eye is not a symbol of dependently co-arisen misery. What's the difference between dependently co-arisen suchness and dependently co-arisen misery? What's the difference? Suchness seems to be a pure creation of nature and misery seems to be a human of actually the brain, like something as a result of thinking or thought.

[14:06]

Well, it's true in a way, except that the human element or creation of thought is involved in the previous example, too. But it's a particular type of thinking that's involved in one case and not in the other. The difference is awakening. The difference is awakening, yes, but what's the difference between awakening and... Dependently co-arisen awakening, dependently co-arisen suchness, the same thing. Awakening also dependently co-arises. What's the difference between dependently co-arisen awakening and dependently co-arisen misery? Dependently co-arisen misery, exactly as it is, is dependently co-arisen suchness. That's right. And dependently co-arisen suchness, just exactly as it is, is dependently co-arisen suchness. What is it that creates, what is it that makes dependently co-arisen suchness? Even though dependently co-arisen suchness, I mean dependently co-arisen ignorance itself as dependently co-arisen ignorance is suchness.

[15:12]

Dualistic thinking. Dualistic thinking. Dualistic thinking, how does that work? You have something dependently co-arises, And dualistic thinking. What is dualistic thinking? Believing that there is an inherent existence of this thing. Yes. So, if something happens, the way that thing happens, just as it is, spontaneously, without adding anything to it or subtracting anything from it, just as it is, even including ignorance, and basically it all is ignorance, dependently co-arisen ignorance, just as ignorance, That is suchness. That is awakening. Dependently co-arisen ignorance in conjunction with, mixed up with, that there's some existence to that thing, that's dependently co-arisen misery, bondage, birth and death.

[16:15]

The eye is a concrete symbol of dependently co-arisen suchness. Is the symbol some historic symbol? Particularly the pupil of the eye. Is that? Is it historical? Yeah, or is it just the symbol is? Yeah, in Zen, they choose eyes, and particularly eyeballs, particularly the pupil of the eye, as an expression of dependently co-arisen awakening. A concrete symbol of dependently co-arisen awakening. Also they use mountains and rivers and the earth as the concrete symbols of dependently co-arisen suchness. Now, to call dependently co-arisen misery, suffering, is not a concrete symbol of it. Do you understand?

[17:18]

That's not a concrete symbol. A concrete symbol of dependently co-arisen birth and death would be, can you think of some concrete symbols? A horse. A corpse. A corpse. Okay. Anything else? A funeral. A funeral. A wheel. A baby. A wheel. A baby. What? Birth and death. Yeah. A misery. A concrete symbol. Birth and death is an abstract principle. Can you think of a concrete... We've already had some concrete symbols of it. Did you see? Those are concrete symbols of birth and death. Want another one? Want another one? Huh? A fox. A fox. Yeah. Want another one? A wave. A wave. Huh? You and me. You and me, yes. Any others? Please. You're making up new ones now, which is fine. And you can also think if you can find some in the Zen literature that they're applying to you, but you may not have any in the Zen literature you can think of. That's good enough.

[18:19]

You got the idea, right? Anyway, part of Zen literature and part of these stories is that they're using concrete symbols of this abstract philosophical principle of the dependently co-arisen happiness and freedom and dependently co-arisen misery. Dependently co-arisen happiness and freedom is just anything that happens just as what's happening. not misconstruing it for anything other than what it is. That's dependently co-arisen happiness. That's called just sitting. Okay? And the shout is another example of dependently co-arisen suchness, a concrete example of dependently co-arisen awakening. Okay? But I want to tell you something else, in case you haven't figured it out. The eye is also a concrete example of dependently coerced misery.

[19:21]

And the shout is also an example of dependently coerced misery. And so are the mountains and the rivers. But the eye or the body or the mountains or the shout, that is just a shout, and nothing more, and nothing reaches that shout, and nothing reaches that eye, and nothing reaches that mountain, that's dependently coerced in suchness. That is the true imperative of the Buddha's teaching. That shout is the shout, which is All living beings, whole being, Buddha nature. That's the shout of the Buddha. That's the most compelling gesture of human life.

[20:39]

which is simply to be completely ourself, without coming the slightest bit short of that, and without going the slightest bit beyond that. Okay, that's sort of, is that understandable? It will be. That's right. Just keep practicing it, practicing it and practicing it. Would I be correct to say all awakening is dependently co-arisen? You would be correct in saying that. What isn't dependently co-arisen? There is no thing that is not dependently co-arisen.

[21:44]

That is Buddha's teaching. There is no thing that does not arise by causes. There is no thing that does not arise by causes. Also emptiness? Also emptiness what? Arises co-dependently? Emptiness arises codependently because emptiness is the characteristic of codependently produced things. Things that are codependently produced are empty. And also emptiness is identical with codependent arising. It's identical. But emptiness is not the same thing as dependent co-arising. What is the difference between emptiness and dependent co-arising? Well, I'm calling... Co-arising things for different things of sense. Emptiness is never different. It's the one that goes through all, through everything.

[22:47]

That's right. Emptiness is not different. That's right. What else? What is the special work of emptiness and what is the special work of dependent co-arising, each of which do not do the job as well as the other one? Please, yes. If one can perceive emptiness, well, there is a malakening because then one sees sections, but if one sees only the whole within different things, without the emptiness, then there is delusion. Seeing colors and things without the emptiness in it, that is delusion, that is misery, that is birth and death. But seeing emptiness without the codependent origination is also misery.

[23:49]

And it's the worst misery than the other kind. They need both. In both cases you need both. That's why they are identical. What is the special job of each? What can dependent co-origination do better than emptiness, and what can emptiness do better than dependent co-origination? Express each other, give each other life. I know. Each one can give each other life, but what does one do better than the other? What does one bring out that the other one doesn't bring out quite as well? Is it about things being independent or weak, and emptiness is about the connection between all things? I know what you're saying and yet I could say the same, I could say it the other way around.

[24:55]

Dependent co-arising also shows the connection of all things because it's dependent co-arising. So what you say is true, dependent co-arising does show how, did you say, dependent co-origination does show the uniqueness, OK? And emptiness does show the connection between all things. In other words, all things are connected by emptiness, but also all things are connected by causes. And dependent co-arising, or mutual co-production, also shows that everything is connected. But it also shows the uniqueness of it. But emptiness also shows the uniqueness of things, because if things weren't unique, they wouldn't be empty. It's because things are unique that they're empty. Because things are unique, they have particular characteristics. Because they have particular characteristics, they are empty. So both emptiness and dependent co-arising show that things are unique and that things are interconnected.

[26:05]

So what you said is true, but it can be reversed. What does dependent co-arising do differently? a little bit better than emptiness does. And what does emptiness do a little bit better, especially good? Yes? Does it have something to do with existence? Yes. Because co-dependent arisen things exist as co-dependent arisen things. Yes, they do. And emptiness exists too. Well, that shut that in. Dependent co-arising shows that form is emptiness? Dependent co-arising shows that form is emptiness? No. Dependent co-arising shows that emptiness is full. No, reversible. And emptiness shows that dependent co-arising is empty. I was going to say, I get a feeling about the generality or vastness versus specificity. Yeah, maybe so.

[27:13]

Particularly when you first meet emptiness, it opens you to vastness. And dependent co-arising shows you that vastness is always specific. There's no non-specific vastness. So to see dependent co-arising without thinking that, to see something that arises by cause and effect, is to see that things that are vast do come into form. That vastness is not, the understanding of vastness is not complete until you understand that vastness always comes into a particular point. The Pendant Crow Rising says, there is always the production of these vast things. Vast things are always appearing as a particular existence. And this particular existence does not exist that way because this particular existence is really vast. That vastness always appears to us as little tiny points which don't exist as little tiny points but only appear that way.

[28:21]

And they're empty of that appearance. I mean, they're empty of any true existence because they're all tremendously vast and bottomless. That's what dependent co-arising shows us. Emptiness shows us vastness but how do you find vastness you always find vastness on a point come down the point and you find out this point is endless so by taking a point and following to the end you realize the emptiness it reminds me of looking at some people's microscope or a you know, things like this little thing, and you look at the microscope at this point, and you see this sort of whole other world, kind of this sort of vast world in its sort of specific point. It's like that, except it's also like, it's like you come down to the end of the thing, and the thing, it's like looking through a microscope where, as you come into the microscope, finally there's nothing there.

[29:34]

It's not like you have a little thing and then realize there's a whole bunch of stuff in it. It's like you start with some little thing, whatever it is, and you look at it carefully and you find out the little thing is nothing. And then you find out that that nothing is filled with stuff. And all the stuff it's filled with, when you come down to all the particulars that it's filled with, they are also completely vast and that vastness is completely packed. It's like the experience of the moment is emptiness, and all the things that make up that moment are dependent co-arising. The moment is dependent co-arising. It's empty, and it's full of dependent co-arising. So they vibrate back and forth. You have something that's dependently co-arisen. As you study it and find out what is dependently co-arisen, you realize it's vast.

[30:41]

Then the vastness, you realize, is completely full of dependent co-arisen. So it goes back and forth, back and forth. That's how you realize that you never have one of these without the other. It's more like just, you know, revelation upon revelation upon revelation. It's release, and then you're released from release. And you're released from the release from release. And this is how the awakening keeps getting deeper and deeper and faster and faster. This is why you don't just sort of get release and then you're done. You get release and then you get released from the release and you keep going like that. And you become more and more radiant and then you get freed from being more and more radiant by becoming dark. Darker and darker and brighter and brighter. Like a black hole. producing more and more energy and becoming darker and darker, brighter and brighter, darker and darker, more and more completely into the world of delusion, more and more completely embracing all beings.

[31:50]

And not only that, but embracing all beings more and more in the parts of beings which are hard to embrace, the darker, kinkier, sleazier parts of beings. That's why David Lynch is somewhat popular. But he's got to be careful, you see, because now he's got to get released from the sleaziness. Do you know what I mean? I don't know who David Lynch is. Well, he's really weird, you know. He can't exactly say he's sick, though, because what he's portraying is really sickness. But it's not clear that sickness is sick. It's so sick that it's conscious. It's so sick that it's radiant. And yet he can get stuck in that. This makes a show called Twin Peaks, which is kind of washed up now, I think. Is it?

[32:51]

It's over? No, I don't think it's completely over. It may be back. So he's got to start making, I don't know what, is his heart, because he didn't grow up in America, I'm sorry, but he's got to start making, like, what do you call it? Rock videos. I thought he was going to make, I don't know what. He has to be creative. He has to make something he never saw before. What? Yeah. What? Mr. Rogers. Yeah, that's what I was going to say, Mr. Rogers. He has to start making Mr. Rogers, or what is it, Mr. Ed, or what was that show even long ago? Was it Mr. Wizard? Mr. Wizard. Captain Kangaroo. Huh? What were you going to say? Captain Kangaroo. Captain Kangaroo, right. He has to start making something. But that's not it. That's been done. He has to find some new creative wholesomeness. That's just sort of like so wholesome that you don't even think it's fresh, you know. He's just completely gone crazy. He's just, you know, making kid shows now. I don't know what, but what would he do? What would it be? You know, that's his problem.

[33:51]

You know, we have this problem. Being creative is really hard because once you succeed, you have to throw it away. It's really sad. Like I mentioned to somebody the other day about Arthur Dove, you know? He was a very successful illustrator. And then he went to France around 1907 and met those Matisse and these other wild animals. Wild beasts. And after that, he never did any of that. And he was very successful in that and made a good living. And then after that, he didn't do any illustrating. He just started doing paintings. And he never sold anything the rest of his life. Look, I... Neither did Van Gogh. Neither did Van Gogh. Some people do sell their stuff, though. It doesn't mean you won't. And then when you do sell your stuff, sometimes you think, maybe I'm doing it right.

[34:58]

Okay, so now let's go to case 14. Oops. All right. Case 14. Does everybody have it? You don't have it? Did you get one, Boss B? You don't have any, do you? I have some. I'll give you one. Just remind me. Who else doesn't have one? Who else didn't get one? She said, nobody needs it tonight if we're going to memorize it. You, book. You? OK, ready? Case 14. Case 14. Attendant Hua passes T. Attendant Hua passes T. Okay. Introduction. That's it? That's the name of the tape. Do you know what the case number 13 is?

[36:08]

Rin's eyes. Lingi's blind ass. You know that one? You don't? No. We were discussing that one a little while ago. That was the one about the eyes. You don't want me to stop? No. I know that one. You do? How does it go? I don't know. Lingi... said to his disciple Sancham... What? Don't forget my teachings. Yeah, don't forget my teachings or don't destroy my treasury of true dharma eyes. Right? And remember what Sancham said? How could I dare? Yeah, how could I dare? What? To do something. To destroy.

[37:10]

The Dhamma. Treasury of Dhamma. Treasury of Dhamma. And then, then Jay said... That's what Lin Jay usually did. But he was getting old. See, he was... Lingyi was about to die. See, he's lying in bed. Anyway, he's about to die. And he said, when... He says, after I'm dead or whatever. He says, don't destroy my treasury at Dharmahai. And he said, he had the sunshine and said... I don't dare. I don't dare. To destroy the treasury at Dharmahai. and then Linji says this is a standard Zen question you should know this question maybe you don't ever say it but then Linji says if someone suddenly asks handle case 33 if someone suddenly asks if someone suddenly asks what?

[38:31]

What was my teaching? If someone suddenly asked, what was my teaching? Okay? If someone suddenly asked, what was my teaching, what would you say? I didn't know what I was saying. Okay? Right. And then... That's what you said. That's not what I was saying. What would you say? I don't know. You doubt what you say? Probably. After I die, don't destroy my treasure. You have two dharma eyes. You are very wonderful. So, probing with a, probing with a pole, with a probing pole in your hand, probing pole in your hand, probing pole in your hand.

[39:49]

What? You know, sometimes they say, you know, you test water with a pole. You test the depth of water with a pole. You test the depth of a Zen student with words. Okay? Probing pole means we're going to try to find out how deep is it? How deep is the realization here? How deep does it go? How deep is this person's heart? How deep does this person trust themselves? Okay? We've got a probing pole. We're gonna try to test how deep this person is. Okay, you've got a probing pole in your hand and shadowed by grass all around.

[40:50]

Okay? Who is this person? Tiger. Tiger. Who is this person? Who is this tiger? Who is this tiger? Who? Deshan. Deshan? Yeah. Who else? Me. Who? Me. Hey, good for you. Any others? What time do we have? Four. What? What time do we have? Four. Yeah, maybe. Anyway, a Buddhist teacher. A Buddhist teacher has a probing pole. What does a Buddhist teacher do with a probing pole? Wax. But anyway, Buddhist teacher uses the probie pole to try to find out who another person is. Why does the teacher want to know who another person is? Because he knows. No. Huh? To liberate. To liberate who? Who?

[41:51]

Also to liberate himself. Buddhist teacher needs to find out who somebody else is in order to find out who she is. So, probing pole in hand, basically words, to try to find out who another person is and what's his business but shadowing grass all around him. Venturing completely into that. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, if you can't have the eye for that. Bill, whatever you do, don't drop it. Sorry. What did you say? He said, venturing completely into birth and death. That's the greatest disguise of all. I'd like to compliment you people. You've gotten pretty well into birth and death.

[42:56]

That's good. You really suffer. That's good. You're hiding. You're shadowing yourself in heavy grasses. And from there you can come forth and find out who your friends are. Better than I can say myself sometimes. Wearing fancy robes, it's hard to hide yourself. People think, They can see you. Sometimes he wraps a ball of silk with iron. Take a silk ball and put iron around it. Sometimes he wraps a stone with brocade or silk. To determine the soft by means of the hard is, of course, right. What about the matter of being weak when meeting strength?

[44:00]

That's the introduction. Now, you know about... It doesn't say here... Yeah, it does say here, actually. And then the case comes. It says down here, but I'll tell you. Doshan is... Oh, he's a... He's a... Who is he? He's a famous Zen teacher. Have you heard about him before? These things, it's also called, the verb is dot heart. You can dot heart the dot hearts. She said, I want to buy it. He says, I want some dot hearts. And she says, I'll give you some dot hearts, some cakes. But first I want to ask you a question. He says, go right ahead. She says, what's that on your back? He says, those are Dhamma Sutra and commentaries in Dhamma Sutra. I'm an expert on the Dhamma Sutra. She says, oh, I've heard of the Dhamma Sutra. I have a question for you about that. She says, in the Dhamma Sutra it says that the past mind cannot be grasped, the present mind cannot be grasped, and the future mind cannot be grasped.

[45:10]

With which mind are you going to dot heart this dot heart? With which mind are you going to eat this cake? And Deshan could not answer. And she said, well, you don't get any refreshment. I told you before that all around the Zen world, territories in the south of China, they had these old ladies up in the mountains protecting them. But then people came from all over China and Tibet, bound to destroy the Zen heretics, but they had these women up there protecting them, would cut these guys down until they even got them. So then they would be more or less disabled before they even got into Zen territory. So she said, so you maybe need some help now, so I can recommend to you some Zen teachers to go visit. He said, I recommend you go teach, go study with this guy named Dragon Pond. So he went to see Dragon Pond.

[46:15]

And Dragon Pond is the name of the Zen teacher, but it's also the name of the temple, Dragon Pond Temple. So he goes to Dragon Pond, he goes into the hall, and Dragon Pond, Mr. Dragon Pond, is hiding behind a screen. So he goes into the temple and he looks around and he says, I don't see a dragon and I don't see a pond. Then the dragon pond comes up from behind the screen and he says, so therefore you now see dragon pond. Do you understand? Did I tell that right? He said, I don't see a dragon or a pond. And the dragon pond steps out. He said, therefore, you see dragon pond.

[47:19]

Then he went out. And he came back later in the evening and stood near dragon pond. And the dragon pond said, what are you doing there? He said, I just want to stand here near you. So he just let him stay there for a while. And he said, it's getting late. You better go. So Dushan walked out of his room. When he got outside, he said, it's dark out here. And the dragon pond says, oh, come here. And he lit a lantern and gave it to Dushan. And Dushan took it and he blew the lantern out. And Dasan had an dependently co-risen awakening. Who blew the lamp out? Draganpan blew the... He gave him the lamp, Dasan took it, and he blew it out. And Dasan woke up. The lights went on.

[48:20]

So that's Dasan, okay? This is this Dasan of the story. After that, he burned his... He burned all his sutras and commentaries And Dragon Pond told the monks that somebody had appeared in the world. And then Deschamps went out and started teaching Zen. And he beat people up a lot with sticks. He's the guy who said, speak. Speak. If you speak, you'll get 30 blows. If you don't speak, you'll get 30 blows. He beat people no matter what they did. And by that form of practice, many people were enlightened. But he only beat people who could use the situation as an opportunity. He didn't beat people who would be kind of discouraged by that.

[49:23]

He could tell the difference somehow. that that lady could tell. So that's Dishon, all right? This is the kind of guy he was. And then here's a story about him. Probably when he was a little older. We're not sure, but probably he was a little older. By the time this story happens, he had become... widely known as a great and extremely strict Zen teacher. And great means very effective in helping people through being very tough. And so here, his attendant, Hoa, asked him, where have all the sages since antiquity gone? And Deshan said, what? Huh? What? What's that? Flying dragon horse.

[50:30]

That's her name, too. Her Chinese name is An Yang. I mean, An Long. Which means? Little dragon. And she's born in the year of a dragon. She's born in the year of a dragon by a... Her grandmother is born in the year of dragon. My mother is also a dragon. My mother and her grandmother is born in the year of dragon. She's born in the year of dragon. She's born in the year of dragon. So there are a lot of dragons around here. How old are you now? 38. 40 plus 24 is 38. What kind of fan? Every 12 years it circles. So that dragon just ran by, it's 14. So add 12 and 12, get 38. Anybody else 38 here? Two more 38, you're dragons too, I guess. And 50, a dragon.

[51:37]

50 and 62. And seventy-six, my mother. And eighty-eight, sense of curiosity. And George. And George. So, pause. So he said, where have all the sages of antiquity gone? And this old tough Deshan says, What? What's that? And he says, The order was for a flying dragon. Horse. But a lame tortoise shows up. Deshawn let it rest.

[52:41]

Well, there's a time to pull a stick out, huh? That's the point. At times like this, in the past, Deshaun would have pulled the sticker off. Anybody would have. But he didn't. He let it rest. And if you'll excuse me for saying so, I wrote up at the top of here on a little piece of yellow paper, Which, by the way, you know, yellow paper is what you give to crying children in Buddhism. They think it's gold. I wrote on a piece of yellow paper, why did Deshaun let him go? And I wrote, where did these tears come from? When I read this, tears came to my eye. Why did tears come to my eyes when it said Deshaun let it rest? When Deshan lets it rest, it's time to cry.

[53:45]

You don't have to cry, you can laugh too, but I cried. The next day, when Deshan came out of the bath, Hua, I mean Hua, passed him some tea. Deshan patted Hua on the back. Boss said, this old fellow has finally gotten a glimpse. This is the way Jordan treats me. Dashaun, again, let it rest. That's how you do it, Jordan, too. So again, he let it rest. All right? There's the story. Do you remember? You done? Yeah? Do you remember anything of it? Tell the part you remember. That he rested. So, Deschamps had an attendant.

[55:00]

You know what an attendant is? Somebody who is nearby, close person and attendant. says, where have all the sages... You know what sage means? Of antiquity? You know antiquity? Antiquity means the ancient times. Like antique? What's the German word for that? Antique. The where have all the sages of antique times, where have they all gone? Now, usually Darshan would have hit him right then. But he doesn't. He says, What? What's that? And then the monk says, The order was for a flying dragon horse. Flying dragon horse means a very fast horse. But a lame tortoise, not tortoises, turtle?

[56:05]

A lame tortoise shows up and does not let it rest. The next day, Deschamps, when he was coming out of the bath, the attendant passed him some tea, and Deschamps patted him on the back. And the attendant says, this old fellow has finally gotten a glimpse. And again, Deschamps let it rest. So... So there's a few twists and turns in the commentary, but in a way...

[57:08]

And I think that the flavor of the commentaries is kind of informative of Zen, the Zen way of talking and so on. But I think you might be able to do something with this story before you even look at the commentary. How many people have already looked at the commentary? quite a few of them. Okay, well, it's okay. So would anyone like to say what the story seems to be, whether used in the commentary or not, what seems to be happening in the story? How do you see the story? Anyone care to say? My feeling about it was... that Deshaun ultimately, by staying, just staying right there, and finally, I mean, just something as simple as he gets some tea and pats him on the back, there's sort of, makes the attendant sort of crash through him at the moment.

[58:29]

There was finally something really simple and really ordinary that happened between the two of them that got him to see something. About who does he say that? The attendant. What makes you think the attendant saw something? Well, he says so. He says so about who? Is he just talking about himself? No. That's the way I took it, yeah. Yeah. That he'd gotten, I mean, yeah, that he'd gotten a pat on the back. That's an interesting way to read it. That's an interesting way to read it. But most people would probably read it that he was talking about his teacher, that he was talking about his old teacher finding a daughter. He was saying his teacher was not getting it, and his teacher finally got it. Wow. What do you mean? Well, what Nancy just mispronounced was he's been rude throughout.

[59:44]

That's the way you know that he's talking about his teacher. And I understand the action of Scott. It never would have occurred to me that it would be this rude to his teacher. Right. Do people usually talk this way? Definitely not. It's very amazing the way people talk in China. It's the country of filial piety, right? Respect for elders and stuff like that. So this monk was really pushing hard on something here. I think that what the monk was up to is very interesting, and what Deschamps was up to was very interesting too. This monk was no slouch. He was pushing beyond the borders of usual behaviour, and he was given a special... We call it opportunity here too with this great teacher. So this is not very common to behave like this, no.

[60:45]

So a teacher is basically giving him a very wide pasture in terms of hope. Is a teacher giving him a very wide pasture? Yeah. Yeah, okay. We can definitely work on that one, yes. The story, it's very difficult to understand, for me to understand quite what's up, but it seems clear that Paul was trying to provoke Dersham in a specific way and anticipated his behavior, and Dersham absolutely... absolutely didn't respond in the expected way. It was somebody... It's not perfectly clear in the story, but it was somebody... I think Guishan described him as having a mouth like a blood bowl or that kind of thing, an image of a mouth full of swords.

[61:53]

It's not somebody by any means unaided to speak. It wasn't just a physical harshness. but he saw himself initially as a dragon slayer, somebody who, with words, would come and undo everyone. And he was remarked in that way by other teachers. So I think the monk was trying to provoke some sharp comment, and Dershon just absolutely did not play. into that game. I'm not sure exactly what it's up to, but it seems like a very remarkable display on both parts. Yeah. It feels very... Diane, what were you going to say? It almost seemed like you were asking for a different type of teaching, and they reversed the role, and that was almost a gift you got, that teaching in a different way, not the Hollywood way. It had to sort of be reversed. Yeah, indeed.

[62:53]

This story seems to be here, this one. Here you have a very ferocious teacher who is being pushed hard and is responding with great softness. So the introduction says, to determine the soft by means of the hard is the correct course. Another way to read it would be, it's always been that hardness overcomes softness. But what about the matter of being confused when encountering strength? So in this story, the monk is being strong, and the teacher is using softness. But he's ruthless at the same time. But he's ruthless at the same time. This is a different kind of ruthlessness. And in a way, this ruthlessness is even faster. As you see, if you look at the verse, this ruthlessness, this softness, in some ways, is faster than strength.

[63:56]

the strength he usually uses. And this story, in one level of this story, this is this one level of it, which is a kind of ethical level in a way, or a kind of behavioral level, it says, you know, that the meeting that happens between us is very fast. It says in the verse that the spark A flintstone or lightning is slow in this situation, in this soft situation. Ordinary high speeds are slow. Yes. But it also seems there are two interesting things about it. One is the very question that the monk asked. about the teachers of antiquity, and presumably the teaching of antiquity, which is a kind of calling into question as to whether Duchamp was a proper teacher, whether he was a representative of the teaching.

[65:04]

And the best I can understand Duchamp's response is that his most complete reply, his most perfect response, just to leave the monk just right where he is. not do anything to correct his behavior, not make any shifts, just you stay there. Well, this is a very simple one, but it seems to me that I don't want to bring it in, but the student is trying to test the teacher. He's trying to see if he can get a rise out of him. Yeah, that doesn't seem to be going on yet. And so he keeps his cool. I mean, when he proposes... with sort of an insult, and treated the other way. In both situations, if he is very sweet to him, he doesn't get upset. I mean, he doesn't let that throw in, and he doesn't get thrown when he gets insulted. He just keeps calm and cool.

[66:06]

Yes, that's definitely going on here. Yes. To me, when I read it, one of the most outstanding things is that I feel like there is a very high inconsistency in this whole. So for me, it's not mainly insulting. There is a lot of feeling to it which I can't pin down. I try to look where I get it from, but I get it from the whole. I can't pin it down. But it feels like there is only one thing, which is beyond the soul. Yes, another character. What? Beyond testing? Beyond testing. It's on another level. Yeah. Another way to look at these Zen stories is that they're stories of outstanding intimacy.

[67:17]

And that's why it's possible sometimes to be apparently rough. If there's intimacy, you can do things which you can't do when there's not intimacy. If there's not intimacy, you really can't say much to anybody without causing some disturbance. But if there's intimacy, you can do something quite rough sometimes, and it works out quite nicely. So this story may in one level be showing some great intimacy. An intimacy that's extremely high speed, too. Or it's pointing out that intimacy is very fast. pointing to that extremely high speed intimacy between us. When we say inquiry and response come up together. So this thing is written like he does this and then he does that and he does this and then he does that.

[68:23]

There's that story too. But there's also he does this and the other guy does something simultaneously. Which in some sense we have to imagine. But it doesn't show how, how to say, how... I think you just say, say huo, huo. Huo. [...] He doesn't say what his response is? Yeah, and that would be an interesting piece. Not just how the teacher was teaching, but what the result, you know. But then you can show how the student even responded. Well, they showed it... The teacher said, what, how's that? And then the student said something. The teacher patted him on the back and the student did something. It just doesn't say what the student did when the teacher let it rest.

[69:26]

You could, I guess, assume various things. Do you think that the student also let it rest? Seems like it probably did. Sometimes they say that so-and-so was awakened, but that was the response of the student. And sometimes they leave that out. It seems very loving to me. And part of what I get from it is from the last case, when his dying words, you were explaining to us that he could do nothing else but give some kind of... I don't remember exactly what. Who would have thought I would have left? My treasure of the eye of truth would be lost in this blind ass. And in some kind of that same spirit, I can't believe that Deshawn...

[70:33]

is actually saying, what, how's that, as if he really did not hear what he's saying, seems like an incredibly alert human being. So, this particular dance between them is going on in that spirit, maybe. The dance is going on in what spirit? Between those two is in the same spirit as, was it Linji who said... said, who would have thought I would have, I would, my treasure, I should have died in this blind house. Yeah. Yes. Well, I was just thinking of something along the lines of Grace's comment. It feels a little bit like, we were talking about this today, they give an inch and they take a mile, or the European expression, give them a little finger, they take a hand. It feels like he's just sort of letting him, leading him down into a little deeper, just letting it rest each time.

[71:41]

It's just leading him down in a skillful way to deeper and deeper into something where finally he's going to Something's going to happen. So just letting them come. Out of love, too. Out of intimacy. Just come on. Keep walking that way. Let's go. Yes? How can you connect the three? I was also thinking that in the commentary it says at some point that Denshon says to Yautri, you will cheat when I get it someday. And then Yautri later says, even the great Denshon does not understand the last word. brought me back to this case and to the last case you were saying that you talk about you have to I mean you have to dismiss the teaching at some point otherwise you get stuck so I can look at this and say this is the dismissing of the teaching and then she lets it rest and it kind of

[73:10]

Gives it... Gives it space because it's to the point. Maybe that's why that feeling of intimacy and that the two of them are one. It's not both. It's like Bodhidharma's blood runs strong in Dushan's veins. It goes through the front door. The wall remains bewitched. What? Fall remains bewitched. It remains bewitched. By what? By words, by an idea, by one. In one of the places they say that Darshan has become senile. As a young man, he used to determine a race of dragons and snakes.

[74:20]

We don't see now. He now listens to a child's song. Yes. I was hesitant to say before, but it sounded to me like the monk was anticipating this dragon of a teacher, and this old man who couldn't answer the question for the cakes was kind of there at some sort of level of disappointment in the monk, and he was actually expressing that disappointment, and the senility may be the key to that. Well, the fact that this teacher was tired and floating down, he wasn't this war horse. Yeah, I think he's a better teacher now.

[75:21]

He's tired. Yeah, I don't think he's either. But anyway, it says that when he was a young man, when Deschamps was a young man, he used to... Determine the arrays of dragons and snakes. Do you get a picture of somebody determining arrays of dragons and snakes? What kind of question that is? What do you see when you see somebody determining arrays of dragons and snakes? What do you see there? A guy who's got a big effect. A big effect. Yeah. Got a big motorcycle and a little jacket. Or a hot boy. now he listens to the song the song of his child of this this might be quite a young person this attendant sometimes his attendants were very young sometimes the attendants were so young like they would come into the temple maybe when they're 14 or something and people wouldn't even mention to them that the person that they were attendant of was one of the greatest teachers in the history of Buddhism they might not mention it to the kid you say well take care of that old man the kid actually might not know who this was

[76:37]

It's possible. Another thing is that oftentimes you might give the teacher the worst student, the one that they can't find any other word for, put him closest to the teacher. That sometimes happens. And now this boy or this young man or whatever who is being this way to this great teacher, the teacher just listens to this song. This is a song. This is the boy's song. He can hear this song and he just listens to it. And maybe he is actually senile. Let's just look at that possibility. What kind of teaching happens between a senile old man and a young woman or a young man? You can't fake being senile. If you're a young man and you're hot-blooded, you maybe have to array determine the array of the dragons.

[77:39]

But is it the determining the array of the dragons that does the teaching? Is it the being senile that does the teaching? Both of those are too slow, I say. But some people, that's where they're at. I think, please accept that some people are into that kind of stuff. That's where they're at. They're into being senile or they're into having a big effect. That's the karmic situation of that person. And other people are in the karmic situation of being senile. But the teaching, what is the teaching in both cases? It says in the commentary that the ancients each had techniques meeting people in accordance with the situation. Right. The thing that sounds unintentional because it says he let it rest, it doesn't sound senile because it sounds unintentional.

[78:43]

Yeah, well, it could be that he's not senile, too. That's okay. He doesn't have to be senile. But I'm just saying, even if he is senile, can you understand that? It's tough. Where do we look to see the teaching? Where is it happening? Right here in their humanity together. What? In their humanity. In their humanity together. Together. And where is their humanity together? Dependent court rising. Dependent court rising. And dependent co-arising is an abstract way to say another abstract word. Another abstract word is intimacy. Intimacy is an abstract word. What's a concrete image for intimacy?

[79:44]

Capacity. Capacity is a concrete image for intimacy, is a concrete image for... The pentacle rising. Please pass the tea. There's another. It's a verbal expression for the intimacy. Pat on the back. Pat on the back. Let it rest. Let it rest. Letting it rest. Chicken. A chick pecking on an egg. And a chick pecking on the outside, on the egg. Pecking from inside, outside the egg. Or in this case, hollering. Hollering. Showing yourself to somebody, whatever that might be. Right. What's a concrete, as abstract, what's a concrete image of that? Standing up.

[80:51]

Talking in class. Taking your clothes off. Putting your clothes on. Dressing up and coming to class. That's a concrete symbol for intimacy. Even not coming to class. Thank you. Banging your head on the window. Anything you don't know, you don't know. I... So, this is our last class. Next week they have a sashin. And... So, the class will be in a zendo next week. So everyone's welcome to come to class.

[81:52]

You can come in the zendo and sit. And we'll have a class there. But it'll be a little different. Different situation. But we will have a class next Monday night in the zendo. I don't know what it will be like in that situation. But we will talk about case 14, either directly or literally or indirectly. I actually invite you, for those of you sitting in the sesshin, I don't know how you'll feel about it, but those of you who aren't in sesshin, if you come to the sesshin, if you go into the zendo, Those who are on sesshin would have been sitting there all day anyway, they'll just keep sitting. Those of you who come in may wonder what to do and what the class will be. The class will be about the question, where do the sages of antiquity come from?

[83:04]

That's what the question is. that we sit with and the zendo is. Where does Buddha come from? That's our question. Where does Buddha go? Actually, that was the question. Where did the sages of antiquity go? Where did the Buddhas of antiquity go? Where did they come from? We sit with that question. What is the sages of antiquity? We have that question. And that question is responded to by the sages of antiquity in an intimate process of meeting. The question is asked in a sense, you can ask the question by yourself, but in this case the question is asked in the presence of someone. In this case it's asked in the presence of one of the sages of antiquity. So I guess I would recommend that when you ask that question, I recommend that I ask that question.

[84:14]

Where do the enlightened beings of antiquity go? Where do they come from? And when I ask that question, that I ask that question in the presence of the sages of antiquity and watch, look for the response to that sincere question. And I think from all I've heard from the sages of antiquity is that they all come from the same place and they all go to the same place. The same place. They come from the identity of dependent co-arising and emptiness. That's where they all come from. That's where they all go to. And this is true intimacy. Here's a concrete symbol too.

[85:17]

Life is like riding in a boat. You raise the sails. You row with the oars. Yet, the boat carries you. And you cannot ride in a boat without the boat. At the same time, you make the boat what the boat is. Dogen says, please investigate such a moment when you make the boat and the boat makes you. That moment. It's hard to stay in a room with yourself.

[86:25]

It's hard to stay in a room with somebody else. And to stay in the room, even though it's difficult, to just stay in the room there, in a zendo or whatever the room is, with a dying person, with a client if you're a psychotherapist, or with a psychotherapist if you're a client. You just stay in the room. and not do something, just stay in the room. Just somehow, if we can somehow just learn to bear that intimacy. The other way to put it is if we can just let the pentacle arising be the pentacle arising, we'll be able to stand that intimacy. That's where they all come from and all go to.

[87:31]

Maybe next, could you mention copies of Case 15? You do? You have them with you? Could you pass them out? Or maybe could people get them from you after class? Do you have them back there? Yeah. So if you want copies of Case 15, you can pick them up. I won't bring up Case 15 during session. I'll bring up, I'll keep working on Case 14. Thank you. But then the week after that, if we can't finish case 14, we'll work on case 14 some more, all about case 15. But you can look at case 15 as soon as you like. The week after this, on Monday night, is Memorial Day. Oh, it is? Yeah. Oh. Would we be, I mean, would we be meeting? Do people not want to meet on Memorial Day? You don't want to? Right. OK. How many people would not come in a moment?

[89:01]

Well, let's try it. Let's see if somebody shows up. I have a feeling nobody will show up, but I'll come. Want your eye back? So from the expression on your face it looks like you understand completely what I've been talking. But it's not easy to practice. Please memorize these two stories, okay? I'll ask tomorrow morning, I'll ask you. Okay. Okay. And then I'll keep asking every morning, give her a recitation.

[90:03]

But I can't, not all of you will I see in the morning. She makes tea for me, so. But please, memorize these two stories. And find, find the I in these stories. And if you do find an eye in these stories, then I'd like to ask you, is it the same eye in the two stories? Do those two stories have the same eye or two different eyes? This is something I'd actually like you to, you know, to, you know, deal with, that question. See what you think. Yes, no, I don't know. Yeah. Do you mean together 13 and 14, or do you mean 14 and 15? 13 and 14. I'd like to know what the I of the story is for you. And it might be the word. The word or words that are the I of the story might be different in two stories, but are they really different Is?

[91:09]

I'd like to know how you feel about that. I'll look myself. May our intention

[91:19]

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