I looked at this sign-up sheet for this class and thought, oh, it's getting big. And I got a little frightened. And then I thought, oh, good. What's your name again? Peg. Peg. Are there any other Pegs or Peggies? Peggy. Peggy. and good for me and good for you that big group is good because people are afraid of big groups usually especially speaking in front of big groups so let's see Some of you have done other workshops here on fear and fearlessness, right?

[01:16]

How many have done one before? Not so many. At the end of the last one, people wanted to keep going, wanted another one, but they didn't come back. Once you get into it, you kind of want to keep working with it. But then if you get away from it for a while, maybe other things come up more interesting. Or... I don't know what. So... Fear is something that a lot of people are working with. And... closely related to fear, inseparable from fear is anxiety. So these are things which most people have to deal with.

[02:23]

Everybody has to deal with anxiety and most people have to deal somewhat with fear. And so they're just things we have to work with. But more than that, they're actually very closely related to the process of getting in trouble and getting entangled and enslaved. They're also involved in those processes by which we make lots of mistakes and do terrible things. And they're also involved in the process of doing good and becoming enlightened. So they're very important topics there. So we could say that most people are in kind of a crisis

[03:25]

concerning anxiety and fear. I guess everybody is actually. And I think some of you have learned that there's a Chinese term for crisis. Two Chinese characters. One character means danger. And the other character means opportunity. So the two characters together mean crisis. So fear is a very dangerous thing. If we don't face up to it and have courage in the face of it, we can be made to do anything.

[04:29]

On the other hand, if we do face it, it can take us, the facing of it can take us into the most subtle realms of understanding ourselves and all things. Similarly, anxiety is dangerous in a different way, because anxiety, if you don't face anxiety, you can't exactly be manipulated by anxiety the way you can be manipulated by fear. I can explain that to you more later, but people can manipulate themselves and be manipulated by others, and manipulate others by fear, because fear is object-oriented. So people can be controlled and driven around by fear.

[05:36]

But anxiety can't exactly drive people with it because it isn't so object-oriented. So the danger of anxiety is not so much that we will be driven directly to... Well, one of the dangers of anxiety is that we're driven from anxiety to fear. And there again we're driven into a realm where we can be controlled by our inability to work with fear. But the more immediate danger of anxiety is that we will withdraw from being present with being ourself, that we will diminish ourself, be less present and self-expressive in order to attempt to reduce or

[06:41]

escape anxiety. This does not work, but this is one of the dangers that we take that approach. The opportunity of finding a way to face anxiety and work with it is that we can see what we really are and become free of our usual ideas of what we are through anxiety, through faith, through anxiety, through using anxiety properly. So we're, we're ongoingly in a crisis vis-a-vis fear and anxiety. They're both dangerous and they both have great opportunities. So they're like very sharp swords or very, very strong medicine, even, you could say.

[08:03]

There may be some things in our life that aren't dangerous. I don't know if there is anything like that. Maybe there is something like that. Which is fine if there is. Like, I don't know what, maybe a... What? Maybe. I just thought of various things, like I thought of a ball, you know. But a ball's a little bit dangerous because, you know, if it's a small ball and you put it in a kid's mouth, they could choke. You think, well, how about a big soft ball, could that hurt? Well, you know, if it gets deflated, it could fall in the water and, you know, smother some animal or something. I don't know, it's hard for me to think of something that's not dangerous. But if there is something that's dangerous, I have no problem with it. Of course, because it's not dangerous. But it's mostly through working with dangerous things that we develop skill. The Buddhist term actually for skill is derived from the word kusa, which is a type of grass, which the Buddha recommended for making meditation seats.

[09:27]

He recommended that monks go out and harvest this kind of tall grass and then make a pile out of it and they sit on this grass, which made a nice surface and also that protected their bottoms from insects biting them. But this grass that he recommended has a sharp edge, and so you can cut yourself as you harvest it. So if you were unskillful, you'd cut your hands on the grass. So if you learn how to harvest the grass skillfully, you could harvest it without cutting yourself. It makes a nice seed. but also it can develop skill because it is dangerous. So it's an opportunity to have a nice seat and to develop a skill and learn how to be careful handling something that's dangerous. And that term, that word for grasp, was converted from kusa to kushala. Kushala then meant skillful or wholesome or appropriate.

[10:34]

And in general it means the appropriate way of dealing with what's your experience. So, in the case of a sharp piece of grass, you want to develop the way to get a hold of it. You don't want to grab it too hard or too softly. So the same with your fear. You don't want to grab it too hard or too soft. Same with your anxiety. What's the proper relationship to these things? What's the skillful, wholesome way of dealing with these phenomena? That's the question. I guess I have a feeling, like, I feel like anxiety... Maybe I'm not going to say priorities.

[12:02]

I was going to say that I feel like anxiety is simply... anxiety is simply the human condition. We are normally, naturally anxious, basically all the time. It's not an unusual thing, it's an omnipresent thing, anxiety. Some people are very happy to hear that because they know they're anxious. There's quite a few people who think it's just them, and so they're happy to hear that it's not just them. And even I'll tell you that Shakyamuni Buddha, the founder of Buddhism, was anxious. If there is a sense, and then even a belief on top of the sense, in an independent self,

[13:13]

of a limited self, of a limited individual. If we have a sense like that, and we give it some credence, or a lot of credence, which most of us do, if we believe in our own being, then we will be we will experience anxiety. If you don't have such a sense and or you attribute no reality to that sense, then you won't have anxiety. But if you don't, you're not a normal human being. And some people don't and aren't normal human beings.

[14:18]

And these people are usually hospitalized. Either as psychotics or as people who have some kind of organic brain or neurological problem or developmental problem. And most of the work That is, most of the therapy they receive is to help them develop a sense of self and to believe in it so that they can function in normal human concourse and therefore be anxious. If there is a sense of own being, then all around that there is a sense of non-being and non-being threatens in an immeasurable way, immeasurably big, immeasurably small, immeasurably varied, endless, ungraspable way, non-being threatens being.

[15:34]

Feeling this threat from all around Because non-being can come from any direction, any time, any place, feeling this, and feeling the discomfort of this, using basic anxiety. And there's nothing you can do about it, because non-being doesn't have any form, doesn't have an address, doesn't come in from any particular direction. In a sense, from the point of view of me being an individual person, though I believe in everything I see, every image I perceive is a symbol

[16:44]

of non-being is a threat to my own being. And everything in that sense is both dangerous and an opportunity. Most of us, to some extent, and the extent varies greatly, do not wish to notice this fact. One of the main ways we distract ourselves from this, and also very basic, and not really sick, it's not a kind of sick thing, is that we derive, we derive to make this non-being into an object.

[17:58]

And then we're afraid. And we can do something about fear. which we kind of like to do, because then we can do something. And also, in the interaction with fear, we are somewhat distracted from the anxiety, which we can do nothing about. So, From the point of view of anxiety, all images are symbols. All images are not objects of what's threatening my existence. They're not objects. They're symbols of something which is not an object. And non-being can be represented by anything. Anything's as good a symbol as another thing of non-being.

[19:03]

And again, most of us do not want to live with that. So instead of seeing you all as symbols, non-being, I make you into an object. And then I can be afraid. And then I can struggle with and participate with. Because anything that's an object of my awareness is partly me. And I'm partly it. So then I can interact with it. And in that sense, if I courageously interact with it, without like backpedaling on myself, in a sense you can transcend the fear. And we can discuss how that might work. After that's done, that's good, because then you're back to yourself again. and then the anxiety reappears.

[20:19]

So the fear and the anxiety kind of go back and forth. When you're facing the anxiety, the fear is in the background. When you make the anxiety into an object, the fear comes forth and the anxiety recedes. But the root of fear is anxiety. And fear is not the root of anxiety, but anxiety naturally goes towards and drives towards fear. So they're very much in a dance. Generally speaking, although I don't want to make a hard and fast rule out of any of this, but this is a guideline.

[21:25]

Fear is anticipatory. Fear is generally in the future. Anxiety is not in the future. It's not in the past. And it's really not in the present even. However, if you are present... That's where you can really feel anxiety. You the subject, you the meditator, being in the present, you most vividly and effectively meditate on anxiety. But the anxiety is not really in time. Fear is. And even fear of negative things It isn't the negativity of them that bothers you. Just the pure negativity of them isn't fear.

[22:26]

It's the anticipation and the possible implications of what you're afraid of that makes it hard on you. And the implication of fear is what the anxiety is worried about. So you can be afraid of things which aren't too negative either, in a way. But the real negativity of all this is what threatens our life. Turns out that non-being does not threaten our life. Turns out that life completely includes non-being. That part of life, you know, life co-arises with non-being.

[23:34]

Being, being is actually first. If there is non-being, it is irrelevant prior to being. But once we are here, non-being becomes very, very significant. We, living, being creatures, give life to non-being. Non-being is a living thing. Because we're alive. And our life is very much wanting to be itself. And our life very much wants to transcend itself.

[24:40]

One of the ways in a sense that it transcends itself is that life, perfectly healthy life, has the capacity to accept its negation. It wants to be itself, and being itself, it can accept not being itself. And not being itself arises from being itself. However, anxiety arises in this very situation. But you see, again, it is part of our nature that we would get involved in this kind of dynamic.

[26:04]

Because otherwise, life would just be life. And life could not transcend life. But it turns out that life is something that does transcend itself. Life does not just happen and bog down and stay that way. Life is constantly changing and constantly erupting from itself. and completely going beyond itself. Life is actually freedom from life. But this breaking free turns out, goes with this anxiety, which we have trouble standing and then driving the fear. Which then, you know, if we don't work with that properly, we get way off track and forget all about being life and forget all about transcending life.

[27:08]

In other words, we start moving, you know, kind of like off the mark. It's kind of a, I don't know what, you know. Very challenging situation. Life is very challenging. Life is not for dead people. You've got to be alive to do it. And you can't be like a little bit alive. You've got to be like, eventually, work up to being, you know, completely alive. And then when you're completely alive, you have to be completely, you have to be completely you alive. And then again, when you are completely you, then you get the big reward of lots of anxiety. A living being in a sense has to command herself to be herself.

[28:26]

And while commanding herself to be herself, she also has to obey herself to be herself. And if you command yourself to be yourself, you put yourself at risk. If you don't command yourself to be yourself, you don't put yourself at risk. So you're not yourself, you know, you're slightly yourself, and you're not at risk, you play it safe, you're submissive to situations, not obedient. You don't listen to yourself and command yourself to follow what you hear. You don't do that. You don't take risks. The risk, the risk of being yourself. Not a whole bunch of risks. Just that one. That one. Just that one. And that is virtue. To have the courage to take the risk of being yourself.

[29:37]

And not just at random, but, you know, like, listening, you know. Now, what is it, first of all? And actually, like, listen to see what it is. Don't just sort of, like, sloppily, uncarefully be yourself. Carefully be yourself. Check out what it is and then inhabit that person, that physical, mental, emotional, psychic, intellectual, blah, blah person by listening and being willing to be there. And then the anxiety. Anxiety, you know, the root of the word anxiety means to be choked, or strangled, or tormented. And tormented is related to the word torque.

[30:44]

It means to be twisted. If you're willing to be yourself, you get choked you get twisted by circumstances not exactly by circumstances in the sense that they come over and choke you but you feel threatened by everything What is the threat? What is the threat? What is the fear? The threat, well, before the fear, there's the threat of, you know, we can go into this in detail, but basically, your being is threatened by not it.

[31:57]

And not you is a lot bigger than you. Not you is... almost everything is not-you, and you don't even know which parts of not-you are the most threatening. And you can't make an object out of not-you, because as soon as you make an object out of it, you're projecting yourself on it, so it's a little bit you. And so you've still got some safety in, like, when you make non-being into objects, you've still got a little bit of yous in there. but beyond and free of all your projections, that is seen as fundamentally a deep, unsophisticated threat. You don't have to be smart or well-educated to feel it. Again, it's more familiar to you to think, now, if you would like express yourself, we might do something to you.

[33:02]

Okay? You know about that. But that's when you drive this thing into the image of us being American, having certain standards, and you can do certain things here. And if you were someplace else, you would make them into objects of being people of another culture that you were less sure about what you could do. But that's what you'd make it into then. But before you would make it into, like, people who have certain rules and what they'll allow you to do, before you do that, you feel something. You feel threatened before you sort of think of some reason why you're threatened. As long as I stay in my seat and keep my clothes on and don't talk too loudly, you know, and don't breathe on anybody or touch anybody, then maybe unless perhaps Red tells everybody to turn their attention on me, you know, maybe I'm relatively safe.

[34:04]

But you're concerned, you know, we're concerned about that. But we're concerned about it in terms of these things as objects. Okay? You can hardly imagine this in a way, but you can feel what it's like, what you feel is coming at you before you make it into, like, objects, before it's made into fear. Can you feel that? This, all this, this non-being, you know, that we feel is going to threaten us is not really going to hurt us because we made it. We gave it its life. Before there was us and stuff like us, what teeth, what power would non-being have? It's really, it's a dead non-being.

[35:07]

It's because of us. Non-being was born, non-being is our baby. But it's a big baby. And it's a big baby because we want it to be little. because we want to be like just somewhere, you know, under a ton and, you know, have a limited number of things we have to deal with, then we decided that non-being would be big. But really, without that non-being is giving us our life. And these people... Our symbols and the trees and the sky and food are all symbols in our perception, in terms of our anxiety. Everything that's pressing on us can be symbolized by these things, but before it's symbolized, something's pressing on us which we feel might overwhelm us, but actually... It gives us our life and we give it its life.

[36:07]

It's not going to overwhelm us. But because we switched over to the side of being this and forgetting about how we made that, then that threatens us. Actually, like, get intimate with this is the job. Is our job. to get intimate with it when we make it into objects and experience fear, and to get intimate with it before it's turned into objects. Or, put another way, to get intimate with it when it's objectless. And just to, what do you call it, just give you, like, just a simple, you know, message from Zen Center. Zen meditation is objectless meditation. Zazen is objectless meditation.

[37:09]

If you're actually doing Zen meditation in this classical sense, it's objectless meditation. You're meditating on, well, you know, in a sense, nothing or nothingness, which, you know, really means nothingness. It doesn't mean like your idea of it. You're actually like getting cozy with nothingness. So of course, Zen meditation is closely related to anxiety. And so most people, when they first start practicing Zen, do not want to practice Zen meditation. So they practice something else, because they do not yet want to get cozy with this kind of very basic, raw anxiety. But again, I want to say again, this anxiety is normal.

[38:14]

It's the human situation. It is existential anxiety. It comes within human existence. It's not sick. It's not neurotic. It's not psychotic. It's also not healthy. It is simply part of the deal. and it is very difficult for us to stay with it, even though it's part of the deal. So again, what I'm proposing to you is that I think you also have heard about Zen being, you know, kind of like, Zen has to do with developing presence, right?

[40:23]

You heard about that? Being present here and now. You know, all Buddhist, all Buddhist practices are really about that, though. It's not just Zen, just that Zen's somehow got credit, got, you know, credit for that. It's very fortunate for the Zen school. But it's basically just a basic Buddhist thing. But really, just a basic human thing. Human life is about being present. Right? Rather than absent. Since we're here, and not for long, it's about being here for not so long. It's going to be over soon enough, so let's kind of like, for what little we have of it, let's be here. It turns out that that knowledge makes common sense, but it turns out to be the happiest, healthiest, most enlightened thing to do, too.

[41:29]

And also it's the best thing you can do for all the other people who are here, even the ones who are not here while they're here. It helps them and encourages them to try it too. Because a lot of people don't want to be here because you know what happens when you're present, right? When you're present, you start to feel what it's like to be alive. And what it's like to be alive is that you want to be alive and also you want to transcend being alive. So then it's very dynamic and very intense. things become very acute. So, and very dynamic. So I propose to you, just a proposal, that a self... willing to experience anxiety is a virtuous self.

[42:36]

That a self willing to be itself and therefore be at risk by being itself is a virtuous self. And it's a courageous self, of course. And it is a creative self. It is creative because it's creating itself and also transcending itself and creating itself again. And transcending itself, it is constantly, what do you call it? Autopoetic. Autopoesis. Constantly self-making itself. Checking out what it is and saying, okay, let's be it. Being present, feeling what it's like and saying, okay. And then feeling the anxiety and saying, well, I can't quite say okay, but I'm not going to run away. Or if I do run away, hey, I admit it.

[43:49]

I'm afraid. I'm afraid. and I'm going to face the fear, and by facing the fear, I come back home. The fear is vanquished, and now I'm anxious again. Life willing to be itself is good life. Life willing to transcend itself is a good life. Self willing to be itself is a good self, is a virtuous self. Self willing to transcend itself is a good self. If you're willing to be yourself, you will unavoidably transcend yourself. If you don't accept transcending yourself, you won't get to be able to be yourself again because you've just changed. So you have to be willing to be yourself and transcend yourself moment after moment.

[44:58]

That is the good self. And that is the good self. However, you will not, the self you are, will not appreciate that. And you will be miserable, frightened, and driven to cruelty. but you will always be exactly that self, nothing else but it, and you will constantly transcend it. That will be in fact what you are, and that is in fact what life is. And if Buddha saw you, Buddha would see that happening. What I mean by Buddha is a person who is doing that, and admitting it while they're doing it, would see that you're doing the same thing, but also would see that you don't think you are, and therefore... the rule of it, the way it works is that you would be, you would be miserable. Miserable, you know, miserable comes from miser, or miser comes from miserable.

[46:07]

Miser means you don't give anything to yourself, you don't let yourself be yourself. Martin? I had a great experience of what you're talking about. I'd like to share it. Is that okay? Yeah. I recently did a practice period at Ring Gulch, which ended in December. Yes. I was there for about a couple of months. And when I first got here, the first couple of weeks, I was very anxious. And I didn't want to be here. like I was, I had thoughts about leaving, a lot of things were coming up for me, which, you know, things from the past, whatever, that I was anxious about, and I just couldn't, I couldn't get around it, but I was doing my best to remain present, and we were doing a lot of meditation, and I was very aware of what was coming up in my mind and my emotions,

[47:15]

And, but in the beginning I was not that, I was it, I wasn't that attached to it. And I remember I had one experience that I was gonna leave. I walked up to the entrance, I was here like two and a half weeks, and I was standing right there, it was a beautiful day. And the cars were coming by, I was gonna stick out my thumb, just say, I'm outta here, I've had it. It was just, I was overwhelmed at the time with all my emotional stuff. And then I asked myself, where am I going? If I'm going to go home, what am I going to accomplish here? So, I got really committed to staying here and being here until the end. And after that, something flipped over, that the emotional stuff was still coming up, and I was still in anxiety, but I began to feel more joy in its place. And for my remaining time here, there was more and more joy and less anxiety.

[48:25]

And I felt really good about being able to complete it. So what you're saying about the anxiety and being in the present was very real for me. Congratulations. I have a question about this. Yes? Very interesting. When I do Zazen, I feel like I become less active as a result. Uh-huh. As a result of going right into it, whatever it is, going right diving into whatever fear, anxiety, obsessiveness, anything, whatever is going on, looking it right in the face, it seems to dissolve a lot of the time. So I find that in general, in my daily life, I'm much less anxious as a result of practice. Does that contradict what you're saying?

[49:28]

Or am I doing it wrong? How's the air in here? Could it be alright to open some windows? People stand there? Is that okay? So Mary Lee said that she feels as a result of meditating that she's less anxious than she was either before she's meditating or when she's not meditating, something like that.

[52:03]

She's wondering how this applies to what I've been saying. Now, when you say you were anxious before, what was your experience, what was the anxiety you're talking about? Well, for example, I got here early today. I got here about four. There was nobody around. It was like deserted. The guest house was deserted. Everything was deserted. And that ordinarily made me feel pretty anxious. I'm like, oh, I'm all alone here. And I start feeling lonely and I start getting kind of freaked out about my lonely life. So I sit down on my cushion and I look at that. Wait a second. So what you're describing there as anxiety is that you feel alone. And nervous. And you feel nervous. But first of all, you felt alone. Yeah. Okay. Now, how would the aloneness... What is it about the aloneness that makes you feel nervous? Kind of an abandoned feeling. Uh-huh. So that's... Is that...

[53:10]

or is it fear? Well, from your definition, it's probably fear because I'm defining it as something rather than just facing the formless phenomenon. Yeah, so there are So there are many, many, many, many possible objects which can be frightening to us. But these five, traditionally in Buddhism, there's five basic types. Fear of death is one. Actually, sometimes they're all phrased in terms of loss. Fear of loss, fear of... Or you can not even say fear, but anyway, the feeling you have about losing life.

[54:17]

That's one. The feeling you have about losing, basically, your mind. Losing control of your experience. The feeling you have when you think about losing your job, your livelihood. The feeling you have when you think about at the prospect of losing your reputation, your good reputation. The feeling you have likelihood, reputation, life, you know, your mind, or your body, sense, and then also fear of speaking in front of a large group. Those are the five fears. But, you know, the five types of fear are they say they're just the way you feel at the prospect of losing these four kinds of things or speaking in front of a large group. But speaking in front of a large group means losing something. Speaking in front of a large group, you could lose your life, you could lose your reputation, you could lose your livelihood, and you could lose your mind.

[55:23]

So basically, they're all about, in a sense, one sense is they're about losing something, but also they're about the other. They're about states of mind that are other than your usual. They're about forms of livelihood that are other than what you usually think of as livelihood. They're about reputations which are other. They're about losing what you have or just so that the other will come moving in on you through these object portals. So when you come into a place and nobody's around, you know, and you start feeling nervous, part of the nervousness is because nobody's around, but also the nervousness is also something that's a harbinger of perhaps more nervousness. Or, you know, that your mind will become move into a form that is usually considered to be out of bounds, or other, or out of control, or... And maybe it doesn't go too far, but you're concerned that it might, that, you know, you come into a place, you know, supposed to be some people here, supposed to be packed, as a matter of fact, and nobody's there, you know.

[56:50]

And that's not so bad in itself. But what does it imply? What does it imply? That everybody left? It's the wrong day? They're hiding from me? It's the, you know, it's the implications of this that sends you into this fear. And the implications are, well, there's no limit to them, actually. There's no limit to the implications of something that's... Once you start thinking about the implications, if things are going according to plan, you sort of say, okay, that's it, and you stop, and you don't get into the implications. If a tiger's in your face, and you just meet it, and don't think about the implications of it, it's not fear. It's just a big face. And there you are. You and the face. If you start thinking about implications...

[57:56]

Well, there could be a lot of important implications, right? Then you become afraid. So when you got into... I think you got into the implications when you got here. That's what it sounds like to me. You didn't get way into the implications because, as you were about to say, you went and sat. Instead of elaborating on the implications of nobody being around, which you can see, you can take that a lot of different places. The people had all been abducted by... You know, and I might be next, or they might be sent back in a different form. There's lots of different implications. But rather than get into the implications, which means rather than elaborating on them and causing more fear, you just faced the fear. And you faced some of the ramifications of the fear, the nervousness, and also your concern about the nervousness. You were a little concerned about the nervousness too, because you didn't, that was a little bit out of, you weren't planning on that either. So you went and sat, you came back to the present, and the fear was in some sense vanquished.

[59:01]

Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah. You come back, and the fear is vanquished, you're calm, and then I propose to you, then the anxiety is present. But she's not so aware of the anxiety. Why not? Well, you want to become aware of the anxiety? Okay. well I want to progress and progress where do you think you'd be progressing to transcending transcending yeah The progression, in a sense, would be to progress from coming back from fear to the present with yourself and then start feeling what it's like to have a self. And the more you start feeling and being aware, and the more you command yourself and obey yourself and become this person, the more you become this person, the more this person is at risk

[60:14]

Now, if you come up here and sit in front of me, okay, and look out at the people and talk to them, and you don't get into the implications of what's going to happen if you do that, and just feel through these symbols what that's about, you start to feel the anxiety. But only if you come and sit here. You know, you have to really be yourself here. If you sit here as an individual in front of these people who represent all people and all things that are you, you start to get in touch with the anxiety. So, it's not that you were doing something wrong, you didn't do anything wrong, to feel, to come back, to feel that fear, to face that fear, which you could identify, which you could deal with, which you could participate with. You engaged it, you participated with it, and in a sense, you temporarily vanquished it. And also, your anxiety is allayed, but it's not gone, it is still here.

[61:25]

And your anxiety will manifest more and more clearly as you more and more take credit for being yourself. The more fully you express yourself, and not moving into the implications of that self-expression, not anticipating what will happen to you later as a result of this self-expression. Being yourself, not for some reason to accomplish something for yourself or for anybody else, but be yourself only to be yourself. Being yourself only to be yourself is to put yourself at the maximum risk. To be yourself... you know, to accomplish something or to get something for yourself, that's not really emphasizing yourself. That's a distraction. It's a distraction from the primary activity of being yourself. And when you work on that, you feel the anxiety most vividly.

[62:29]

When you say what you have to say as an expression of yourself, primarily in order to express yourself, primarily in order to show your heart to show your mind, to show your body, if that's your primary concern in your self-expression, then you feel at risk. And as you get more skillful and more honest at revealing yourself, you feel more and more at risk. And you notice The reward for self-expression is anxiety. And then many people say, well, if that's it, I'm not going to express myself. But you see, that's in fact what they learn. They learn self-expression, payment, anxiety. But to keep expressing yourself, even though you get anxiety for self-expression, is the road to liberation.

[63:33]

It takes a while to get present enough and expressive enough, to be obedient enough to yourself, to be obedient enough to listen to yourself, to recognize yourself, to feel yourself enough, and to command yourself to be what you hear. Not to be something else, but just to be what you hear you are. To get skillful enough at that so you really start feeling anxiety. true anxiety, which is not fear. And then, when you feel the anxiety, if you stay present and watch, you'll notice how it veers off into fear. How it goes off into objects. And then, bring yourself back, feel the anxiety, and then notice how it drives off into the fear. And how when you get into the fear, that when you get to fear, the real crunch of fear is the anxiety about fear. It's not the known, it's not when the known thing happens.

[64:42]

It's not the negativity itself. It's the endlessness of the possible implications, which is the anxiety that's out back around the fear. Andy? Is the mic? My understanding, incorrect if I interpret what you're saying, would be that fear is the objectification of anxiety. Is that what you said? Yeah, fear is the objectification of anxiety. So a typical representation that you might observe in yourself or other people is... fears that arise regardless of any apparent reason for fear to arise. In other words, anxiety exists, it tends to objectify whatever it encounters and create fear in that situation.

[65:46]

Whereas, just through another person's viewpoint, there doesn't seem to be any rational reason for that fear to arise. So would that be a case of anxiety objectifying taking any particular object and objectifying, you know, this, and invading fear. You know, I feel like, you know, for all I know, what you said was... I don't know what. I couldn't quite, you know, connect with it. But anyway, back to where you said... fear is the objectification of anxiety. There we were, you know, I was right with you. And then, you talked a little too fast for me. So, if you walk through this more slowly, maybe I can stay with you. Okay. I can see in myself a tendency in my behavior where if I'm experiencing anxiety,

[66:57]

I can objectify almost anything. I think you said this, in fact. You can objectify almost anything. I said that fear is the objectification of anxiety. It's not that you can objectify almost anything, okay? It's not that you can objectify almost anything. You can't objectify almost anything, because if it's something, it's already been objectified. So you can't objectify almost anything. If it's a thing, it's already objectified and you've got to work with that thing and you've got to objectify that thing according to the rules of that object. Okay? So that's one step. Anxiety is is is, you know, it's not It's not an object. It is endless. It is like everything that's not you.

[68:02]

Then you have experiences. You, being a living being, you have experiences, which means you interpret this universe. Something happens. You have a feeling or a smell or a picture. There's a woman, there's a woman, there's a man. You see these things. Things happen. These words happen to you. Okay? Then you can... You can say that this thing out there, that object is about this... All that non-being out there that, you know, threatens me. So then any of these objects could be... I could take them as symbols of... the unknown non-being. In fact, all these things in a sense are little, kind of like, you could use them as kind of like little, you could use anything as a symbol of that.

[69:04]

Then everything reminds me of not me. And in fact, that's the way it is. But not me, like... You know, autistic kids, right? You've heard about autistic kids. That's the way it is for them. All this stuff's out there, like, kind of like... Anything could be, like, threatening you. But it isn't the thing. It's that this thing represents what you think threatens you. Then, if you put it in the future, and think about the implications of this, what you've done, then you're afraid. This is all, you know, and some people can come up with nice, they can pull off all kinds of good reasons for why they're afraid of this person, but not that person. But these are both perfectly good symbols of my non-being. Both these people are perfectly, equally good symbols of it.

[70:09]

But I may choose to, you know, elaborate how Rafael is... you know I may get into how he is I may make him into rather than a symbol of that I may make him into an object of it because then I can interact with something which I can't interact with because if you could interact with non-being it's not non-being it's coming over and dancing with you it's coming into being but then you're afraid if it's non-being you're working with Which is kind of a problem, being afraid. Because of all these... Now, where are you? I feel like I follow what you're saying. Okay, now is there something you want me to follow? I think that you stated what I was trying to say, but the only difference in our orientation was that... I was trying to look at it in more of a psychological framework, where you can recognize certain types of people's behavior, that they objectify their anxiety more than other people seem to, and that makes them seem anxious about things that seem irrational to another person.

[71:26]

Yes, some people are more afraid than other people. Some people have less tolerance for anxiety, Which means some people are not as courageous as other people. The people who are more courageous have a higher tolerance for anxiety. Being courageous means being yourself. Some people are really backpedaling on guess who. But that's the way that they be themselves. And they're perfectly doing it that way. But the way they're doing it is by Basically, self-accusation. They feel it's wrong to be themselves, so they back down into some corner of themselves, and then they don't feel less anxiety. But feeling less anxiety, you've got to do something with it, so then you feel more fear.

[72:27]

And then you say, well, there's the fear, and that fear is saying, I can't be me. The anxiety doesn't say you can't be you. The anxiety says, since you are you, we're going to wipe you out. The anxiety is not saying you can't be you. The anxiety says you are really being you and who do you think you are to do that? Anxiety is only for people that are being themselves. Fear is for those who have already kind of like left the scene of the crime a little bit. And then there's also, like, before even getting into fear, is to withdraw from the situation. So there is neurotic anxiety, and then there is fear. Some people are into fear, and some people are into, like, getting themselves in a position where they can't even feel what would drive them to fear. Yes? Raphael? And anxiety, at least for me, anxiety is more unpleasant than fear.

[73:30]

Yes, it is. Because fear, I can do something, I can deal with it. That's right, exactly. So I was just thinking now that something that I, I'm noticing something that I do is that when I have anxiety, I will do something. Especially something dangerous or something exciting or adventurous or whatever. Yes. And then I am afraid. Yes. But I can deal with that. Right. That's right. I agree. That's the pattern. I mean, I keep on doing it. You know? I never have to feel unsafe. Correct. You're just looming there waiting for you to come home. And when you get home, it actually will say, well, where you been, sweetheart? We've been waiting for you to come here and be yourself again. It turns out it takes more courage to come home.

[74:32]

The thing that takes the most courage, the most courage, the most courage, the most courage is to be yourself. Takes the most courage. Yes. Yes. Um, something very interesting happened to me in the last couple of weeks, which was confronting, um, an old friend about certain things that had been happening, which is very hard for me to do. What's your name? Marcia. Yes. And, um, she asked me a question about something that I, for the first time, sort of told her I'd heard about and what the situation was. And that was incredibly anxiety-producing for me. And, um, And when I went to talk to my therapist about it, she said, well, what you have to do is be willing to let that person dislike you. And I thought that was something that was very profound because to be yourself and to be differentiated from whatever that object is, you have to be able to be willing to let somebody or something dislike you.

[75:38]

That's right. Yes. I have a really different read on this than they have on simplifying it. Is your name Janice? Joyce. Joyce? If you're more yourself, would you be yourself in your own nature? That means there's a sense of some authentic self emerging. I would assume if you're more yourself, there's less of an ego to protect. If you have less of an ego to protect, then where would the anxiety be coming from? Oh, what I mean is, be your ego. I don't understand. Authentic self, the authentic self is not the ego. I'm saying if you develop an authentic self, if you're true to yourself, if you're more naked, then there's less of an ego to protect. So where would the anxiety come from? There's no less of an ego to protect when you're authentic. Same amount of ego to protect. I don't know if that's true.

[76:41]

Well, don't get into where that's true or not. Just listen to me. Were you saying truths over there before? No, I said it's the way I'm reading it. Yeah, it's just the way I'm reading it, too. I'm not saying truth. I'm just telling you what I'm talking about. That's all. So when I say self, the self that has the anxiety, that's the ego. The non-ego doesn't have anxiety. I'm talking about the egos. Now, if you want to meet the authentic self, the authentic self is the transcendence of the ego. Authentic self is like totally free. That's what I was implying. I know you were, but I'm telling you that the authentic self goes through the ego, comes out of the ego. Check it out.

[77:44]

And if you check it out, what you're going to have to do is... If I am more my authentic self, I'm less concerned about what people think about me. I'm less attached to the image I projected. That's right. That's right. Which means if I'm more that self, that authentic self, I have less ego, which means I would... No, no, you don't have any less ego in your authentic self. I wouldn't have anxiety. No, no, you don't have... Authentic self doesn't, like, have less ego. It has no ego. No, it has an ego, but it doesn't think that the ego is the beginning and the end of the universe. It has inhabited the ego. The authentic self is something that a person who has been willing to be an ordinary person gets as a gift. People who are I'm saying the more natural I am myself in the world, the less concerned I am about protecting my ego, which means it's less anxiety because I'm less concerned about what people will think about me.

[78:49]

That's what I'm saying. Would you say that again? A little slower? I don't know if I can. I'm sorry. Probably something like that then. If I'm more my natural self, you kept talking about the natural self. I didn't say natural self. What is the word you used? I don't know. Presenting yourself to the world, okay? And if you are more your authentic self, if you are more real about who you are, there's less ego. With less ego, you won't experience anxiety because you care less about people judging you or protecting yourself. That's what I'm saying. Okay, I heard you. Okay, now here's what I have to say, all right? Which might sound different from what you said, okay? Can I say something different from you? Absolutely. All right. So what I'm saying is that the way to transcend yourself, the self I want to transcend is my limited self, my self that's limited. Okay?

[79:49]

That's the one that feels the anxiety, the limited one. But that self wants to be a self only because it is that limited self. And that self... wants to transcend itself. I'm not done. This self wants to keep talking. Are you going to let me? I'm proposing that by being my limited self, I feel anxiety. And if I'm willing to feel the anxiety that comes with being my limited self, I will transcend my limited self, and I will become my authentic self, which is not worried about this limited self anymore. But I'm suggesting that I don't get to transcend the self by skipping over being the limited self. And that's what a lot of people in spiritual practice do.

[80:50]

They want to get to the transcendent self. They don't want to go through the pit, the anxiety pit, of being a limited, inauthentic, So, inauthentic means, inauthentic means a self that doesn't completely realize how it's authored. I have to be this limited ego self and feel the anxiety of that all the way, feel the whole range of the anxiety and just be that self and feel that and then I get relief from that and then I won't be worried about myself anymore. However, that authentic self for me is not natural. It is a result of hard spiritual practice of commanding myself and obeying myself to be a limited fella or gal, whatever.

[81:55]

And that is very intense spiritual effort. which takes a lot of practice and a lot of cutting your hands on sharp grass and a pretty bloody meditation cushion to get to that place. But when you get there, you won't care about yourself anymore at all. Not because you're doing somebody a favor, but because you just forget the whole thing. You transcend it. You completely forget the whole thing. because you suddenly see that all the stuff that you're threatened by is actually your life. That's what you really are. So there is no more threat. But you don't have less ego. Ego is exactly what it was before, just a little kind of like a puffball. And that's how you know where to put your cereal. You don't go around feeding other people without asking them. You do feed other people, you know, like she said, would you like me to feed you?

[83:01]

And she says, no, so I don't. But if she actually can't feed herself, then I feed her. I'm just as concerned with feeding her as myself, but I also know that she's not me, so I have to ask her if I don't have to ask me. I've still got an ego. It's quite useful. Without an ego, I wouldn't know who to ask whether they wanted me to feed them or not. You see, it would be a mess. They would lock you up if you didn't have an ego. Enlightened people have nice, spiffy little egos, just like everybody else. Real clear, you know. They never make mistakes like, you know, kind of like not knowing whether they should check with somebody else before they, you know, wipe their nose, wipe the other person's nose. They know that you should ask people in certain cultures. Now, there's some things you can do with people without asking them. I think you're slipping with a couple hundred dollars. In certain cultures you can do that and it's quite all right. But in certain cultures you can't take a couple hundred dollars from people without asking them. Ego is how you tell what to do with the money and what to do with the saliva and the snot and the toothpaste.

[84:04]

But they still have ego, these authentic selves. But ego's like, you know, kind of like, there's blue jays, there's pine trees, there's ego, there's addresses, there's telephone numbers, there's telephone books. Ego's are like one of the things out there that you use. That's all. It's not like, kind of like, ego's really, like, real important and, you know, telephone books are less important. They're like, they're equal at that point. But you wouldn't go around saying, you know, it isn't like enlightened people do not have telephone books. You know, like, no more telephone books for enlightened people. It's not like that. You eat before and after enlightenment. You have telephone books before and after enlightenment. You have self before and after. You have evil before and after enlightenment. What you don't have after enlightenment is you don't have hatred for other people. You don't have greed, you know,

[85:09]

You don't have revenge. You don't have confusion. You don't have fear. You don't have anxiety. But you do have. You do get hungry. You do have an ego. You do have a telephone number or not. And you do have enthusiasm and generosity and joy and freedom and energy and flexibility and intelligence and wisdom and compassion. You have all that stuff. which you had before, but you couldn't see it because you were afraid to come home. Because when you got home, you felt so much anxiety. So, if you get away from fear and then you temporarily feel relief from fear and you don't feel a lot of anxiety, that's okay. If you now start expressing yourself in your meditation, which means all day long, you will start feeling the anxiety.

[86:10]

The more you express yourself, you'll feel more anxiety. But if you can feel that anxiety, be that person who feels that anxiety, you will transcend that person. And your authentic self, which is your forgotten ego, or your ego-forgotten state, that will dawn, that will be realized, that will come into the world, and that's what we're here for. But we have to go to this workshop first. And this workshop is not just for this weekend. This is the beginning of a long workshop that you're entering. Congratulations. What's your name? Barbara. Barbara? Yes, something that Marcia said, actually I have something very similar to that. Yes. I have a close friend also that I am pretty honest with.

[87:13]

And she had expressed some upset the way I listen when she shares. And I have not yet shared with her my anxiety. about her requirements than me when she shares. I have learned a lot about listening better, but I've gone very far over towards what she needs. And I have not yet told her that I am me, and I am this so far, and I'm not beyond here. I've had fear about that. So are you saying the best thing for me to do is to simply experience my anxiety, not to objectify it in my mind I'm afraid of, or I'm afraid she's going to leave me I'm afraid she's going to put me down is it better for me to just stay with a raw anxiety and just know this is my condition and just keep being who I am and whatever happens happens pretty much but you said some stuff around the edges there that I would like to prune off I'm not telling you not to do anything there's nothing I'm telling you not to do

[88:31]

what I'm suggesting is that you be yourself and that will give you just the right amount of anxiety I'm not exactly saying if you feel some anxiety work with the anxiety because then again if you feel the anxiety like something that you could orient towards that's not anxiety exactly that's more like fear The anxiety is what you feel when you don't have any time even to feel it. It's like you're totally working at being yourself. I'm suggesting that you work at being yourself and then see what happens. And what happens will be the anxiety, just the right kind of anxiety, which you won't have any time to get a hold of. You can't get a hold of the anxiety. You can get a hold of fear, And that's useful. And so we can talk about that more too. How do you get a hold of the fear? When you start working with the fear, you know, participate with it, love it, and it could bring you back to being yourself.

[89:36]

That will be you doing this very strenuous, energetic dance with your fear, with the object which causes the fear. By being yourself in relationship to that, by being courageous in face of that, using courage to meet the fear, you're expressing yourself and then you start being yourself. And when you've totally done that, the fear drops and what we've got is you now. Then the anxiety dawns. What do you do then? Be yourself again. So, in talking to somebody, the way to be yourself is the same way that you be yourself when nobody's around. When nobody's around, what you do is you listen to yourself. You obey yourself. And you command yourself to obey yourself. You say, listen to me, be yourself. And you listen to see what self you should be. And when you're talking to somebody else, you listen to them.

[90:41]

Listen to them or to yourself? To them. And then you express, and then you be, and then you be yourself. And you command them to listen to you. How do you command them to listen to you? By being yourself. You might say, listen to me, but mostly you express yourself. It gets kind of boring to keep saying over and over, listen to me, listen to me. What you do is you say, I want to talk. I want to say something. Here I am. I'm expressing myself. It isn't like, please listen to me. That's one way, but basically I have something to say. I'm talking. This is me. That's one thing I have to offer to this conversation. I have me to offer. But not only do I have me to offer, but I also have listening to offer. I'm listening to you. Turns out that the me that's the most anxious one is the one that's listening and also expressing.

[91:49]

The one that's not only expressing, not only expressing, but... being recognized if I'm expressing and you're not listening to me I don't feel as anxious as if you do listen to me but if I'm expressing myself and you're just listening I don't feel as anxious as if I'm listening to you and you are expressing yourself that's the most way that's you that's me at my most is when I'm not just talking and being listened to but I'm talking to somebody who I think is somebody. And somebody who I think is somebody is listening to me. That means a lot to me. But since there's somebody who means something to me, I'm also listening to them, because they're somebody,

[92:42]

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