I thought we'd start on case 41. Is that the case you passed out? It's the case here, which is, I think, a nice case to start the practice period with. Did you say your name is Harriet? What was your name? Sally. Are you comfortable? Are you sitting on something? Yeah. This seems like a nice case, a good case to start a practice period with. It's about a Zen teacher who is about to die. So it seems like the end of his life, but in a sense, it's like beginning a practice period is, in a sense, the end of your life.

[01:17]

In a way, it can be the end of your life as a human and the beginning of your life as a Zen practitioner. This is the story about the end of the life of a Zen practitioner who's trying to bring a few other people over into the realm of the Buddha, the Buddha realm. These stories are not about the human realm, these Zen stories. They're about the realm of Dharma. And in order to enter the realm of dharma, we have to give up human sentiment, human concerns, human beings being creatures who think they're separate from other beings, and so on.

[02:21]

In the realm of dharma, there's no self. We have to check what we call that. Tatsahara had this expression. Check yourself at the door of the zendo. I was meaning to have a sign made to that effect and post it outside the zendo to check yourself at the door. Another sign was something else. What was the other thing to leave at the door? And give up worldly Give up worldly affairs means, like the chant we do at the beginning of Dharma Talks, give up worldly affairs and maintain the Buddha Dharma. So, on the night of Buddha's enlightenment, he gave up worldly affairs. Basically, worldly affairs are to move. And after you give up worldly affairs, then you can enter into the realm of Dharma and

[03:31]

maintain the Dharma, maintain the workings of Dharma, but you can't bring along your human stuff with you. And I was just reading a novel with my wife and came across the phrase that in the end we come to be cured of our sentiments. those whom life does not cure, death will. And I think people confuse embracing life with attaching to life. Ironically, I propose that giving up trying to get something out of life is the way to embrace it, because we're holding on to part of life and not embracing the other part, we don't embrace it.

[04:32]

So here's a story about, I feel, a story about somebody who himself, perhaps for some period of time, has been living in the realm of Dharma. Perhaps many years before, he gave up self and entered the realm of Dharma. He forgot his self, and found the total infinite possibility realm of Dharma where the self has been forgotten. He has been teaching it for some time and now he comes to the end of his body and he is very kind and gives this teaching. Sometimes out of loyalty and sincerity, denying oneself the pain and cramp is hard to express. So now, you know, we have this wind blowing and blowing people's roofs off and stuff.

[05:48]

When your roof of your house gets blown off, it makes you nervous probably. You wonder what will be next, maybe. And, um... Hi, Leanne. Have a seat here, if you want to sit here. I need more chairs. No, no more chairs. Well, if you want to go down in the dining room, you can bring a chair up. I'm sorry to interrupt. You're not interrupting. You can sit on the floor or go downstairs and get another chair. Or sit here. So I've been feeling lately that certain events happen in our life, like someone you care about dies, or you get really sick yourself, or the roof of your house gets blown off, or things like that happen and suddenly your mind opens up to the, you know, there's a crack in the surface that you usually put between yourself and change.

[07:03]

You start to open up to this seething, molten lava underneath. And at that time, we sometimes think that the thing that happened is the thing that caused that awareness of that suffering, that huge suffering. We even sometimes, again, as humans, try to blame something in the area where the opening occurred. It's a real strong human habit to try to fix blame, to fix responsibility for opening us up to impermanence. Well, excuse me. for opening us up to the impermanent, to awareness of impermanent, of impermanent things. Impermanence actually is understanding, more the understanding which grows up out of seeing how impermanent things are.

[08:06]

And the first step is to actually get some contact with the fact that things are impermanent, which at first is a shock, and rather than kind of sit with it, we sometimes flinch into affixing blame. And I think you know, in the Book of Changes, one of the most common comments is, no blame. All this stuff's happening, no blame. Don't try to blame somebody. Get close to this change. So here this guy is trying to be kind at the last minute. And I brought this thing up about pain because, see, again, when you're in pain, if you don't relax with it, then if somebody else comes up and talks to you, when you're in pain, you may sort of feel like, like if you're juggling several balls and you're stressed, and somebody says, can I throw you another ball?

[09:13]

You may feel irritated. You feel like throwing all the balls at them. So sometimes out of loyalty we don't tell people how we're suffering. Sometimes we're afraid of what will happen if we let them know that we're suffering. Because sometimes we let them know that we're suffering and they think that we're blaming them. And there's a part of us which is, you know, often quite nearby, quite available, which actually could blame them. If we hold still, you know, we can maybe hold back the blamer. If we start telling about our suffering, and they don't respond in a way that we like, then the blamer might come up. Or even they might feel blamed, and then you might say, okay, well, I will blame you then.

[10:15]

It's very tricky, so sometimes We hold back telling and sharing our pain because we're afraid, we don't, we're not sure people can handle knowing about it. Our pain that's coming from being aware of the impermanent. So it's a tricky situation. How do you, how do you say, you know, I'm in pain without blaming, without, I don't know, And then how do you handle when people feel that you're blaming them even though you don't think you are? Sometimes calamity extends to other people but one doesn't take responsibility. Sometimes disaster befalls us

[11:17]

and we fail to get the point. So now, when about to pass away, we are cut down cheaply. At the very end, there is the most care. Tears come from a painful gut. It is impossible to hide or escape anymore. But is there anyone who has cool eyes? Who is the woman or man who's not a companion of the world? And, you know, to some extent, if you're a Zen student or or even if you've been trying to practice Zen for a long time, and if you're in pain, you also may be embarrassed because you maybe feel like, well, I'm supposed to be one who is not companion of the world.

[12:36]

I'm not supposed to be pushed around by these ups and downs. But maybe if you're not pushed around by these ups and downs, you can say, hey, I'm pushed around by these ups and downs. But again, it's tricky. Who is that one that's not a companion of pain and pleasure, who doesn't run away from pain, who doesn't blame others? So anyway, lupu humbly stoops down to help his students. Tears are flowing from his tender heart. And he says, I have one thing to ask you people. This is my ultimate concern.

[13:38]

If this is so, this is adding a head on top of your head If this is not so, this is cutting off your head, seeking life. At that time, the head monk said, Green mountains are always moving. The green mountain is always moving its feet. You don't hang a lamp in broad daylight. Lhupu scolded him. and said, what time is this to make such a speech? A certain elder named Yansong came forth and said, leaving these two paths, I request the teacher not to ask. Lupu said, not yet. Speak again.

[14:41]

Yansong said, I can't say at all. Lu Pu said, I don't care if you can say it all or not. Yan Song said, I have no attendant to answer the teacher. I know. That's why I read it to you. So did you hear it? Can you make those changes? Lu Pu said, not yet. Try again. Yansong said, I can't say it all. Luopu said, I don't care if you can say it all or not. Yansong said, I have no attendant to answer the teacher. Does it say at all or it all?

[15:54]

At all. At all. Well, excuse me. First he says, I can't say it all. And then he says... Wait, who says? Yansong says, I can't say it all. And then Lupu says, I don't care if you can say it all or not. Oh, so this is a mistake. It's a misprint. Can I write it in the book? Can you write it in the book, in Zen Center's book? Yes. Do you have good handwriting? No. Well, get somebody that has good handwriting. I'll try to be very mindful. But if somebody picks it up, they're going to be mistaken. Well, you could have somebody, there's probably somebody, does somebody here have good handwriting? Martha's pretty good. I mean, this should be corrected. That's right, we're doing that right now. I agree. I have an old typescript here, and it got… the mistake happened in the printing, I guess.

[16:56]

Would you be so kind as to do it one more time? Well, how about Lu Pu said, not yet, speak again, okay? And then Yang Tsung says, I can't say at all. And then Lu Pu said, I don't care if you can say it all or not. And then Yansang says, I have no attendant to answer the teacher. Was there a scolding instead of a scent that you'd like also? Well, no. I'm saying he's scolding. Okay. Got the picture? That evening, Lu Pu called Elder Yan Song and said, Your answer today was most reasonable.

[18:08]

You should now, I'm adding now, you should now experientially realize the saying of my late teacher, quote, Before the eyes there are no things. The meaning is before your eyes. That is not something before your eyes, not in the reach of the eyes and ears. And I would say, end quote. Do you have an end quote there? And then which phrase... which phrases are guest and which phrases are host. If you can pick them out, I'll impart the robe and bowl to you. And the elder says, Yonsang says, I don't understand. Lupu says, you should understand. Yonsang says, I really don't.

[19:14]

Lupu shouted and said, how miserable. And then probably later, I don't know when, maybe right away, maybe next day or whatever, another monk says, what is the teacher's meaning? What did you mean the other night when you said, maybe he was, you know, nearby, and he asked him, what's the teacher's meaning? And Lupu said, the boat of compassion is not rowed over pure waves, over precipitous straits, it is wasted effort to set out a wooden duck.

[20:17]

Another possibility is that the monk, the head monk was the monk asking this question that he invited him in too for this later discussion. So, what is the teacher's meaning also can be understood as, okay, now, you just ask this guy, and he says, he's really coming down on the side of he doesn't know, and you're saying, you know, this is really tough. Really tough situation here, isn't it? The teacher says. And the monk says, well, how is it for you? How is it for you, teacher? And he says this thing about The boat of compassion is not rowed over smooth waters. It's in the steep ravine that one toils in vain to release a wooden duck. OK.

[21:43]

That's basically the story. Any questions to start about this? Yes. I have a question about guest and host. I always see those two. Guest and host? Yeah. Guest and host basically means, well, in a sense, it means teacher and student. Or, you know, the big... the big point of view and the narrow point of view the unbiased what's the unbiased what's the biased understanding and what's the unbiased understanding he's asking the teacher's asking the student you show me teacher's understanding and the student's understanding or you could also say what's the human understanding of the story and what's the understanding which goes beyond the human understanding Can you pick out the partial conventional understanding in this story, and the understanding which is not a companion of the world, and so on?

[23:00]

So host and guest are, what do you call it? Is that jargon, or is that? Is that jargon? Is that jargon? In terms of art. Yeah. OK. Yes. I wondered if you could talk about the... The head monk said the green mountain is always moving its feet. You don't hang a lamp at broad daylight. What is he pointing out there? What is the... Before we go on to ask you questions like that, any questions about the terms of reference here or anything? Yes? What is the wooden dog? Wooden duck is explained in the commentary. When they're going through real rough waters, like through rapids, you take a piece of wood, which they call a wooden duck, put it out ahead, and you can watch how it goes through the rapids and see how it cuts.

[24:04]

If you watch, you can see that it's all tumbling. But sometimes if you put water in, it always goes the same way. Like at Tatsuhara, we had this thing called the narrows end. If you sit in this pool above this waterfall into this next pool and watch the water go, you might think you're going to smash into the wall. But actually, the way the water goes is it puts you right up next to the wall and scoots you out, and you don't hit it. And basically, if you put something of reasonable size like this, a human body or smaller, it'll always go the same way over that falls. So then it helps you get ready for how you're going to cut and turn and lean in the boat and stuff. So they call that a wooden duck. This guy is saying it's futile to use a wooden duck. So he's saying two things. He's saying one is that the boat of compassion doesn't go over smooth water. It goes over rough water and it doesn't help to put a wooden duck out to see where you're going to go beforehand.

[25:08]

That's not compassion. I don't know what to call that. when you put the wooden duck. I guess that's survival. Survival in the human realm. Survival of life. With insurance. Insurance. Yeah. It's the same. It's being, what do you call it, it's being a companion of the world to put the duck out there beforehand. So in the practice of compassion, you don't do that. In ordinary boating, you do. Because there's no point to it. There's no safe way through. That's right, there's no safe way through. In the end, we're not going to get through it. We're going to get hurt. There's going to be pain. So compassion is about how you're basically not trying to avoid the pain. You're trying to get intimate with it.

[26:10]

So then you don't use the boat. And also you don't stay away from the rough waters and you don't use a guide to try to get through the rough waters without getting hurt. What you try to do is get through the rough waters without worldly concern, without veering to some extreme, like he says at the beginning. If this is so, then you're adding a head on top. If this is not so, then you're cutting off your head, seeking life. So avoiding those things, there's no wooden duck which will show you how to do that. Yes? What is this in reference to? I have one thing to tell you people. That's the this. Okay? The one thing he has to tell you. You know, if it's so that I have one thing to say, if it's so that I have one thing to say, then these two extremes won't do. .

[27:20]

Oh, just a second. I'll do this now, but I kind of want to know, are you people, do you feel comfortable not, in a sense, jumping into the other realm where this answer is supposed to be coming from? There's no point in setting out a little bit. Okay, now, Maya, the question is the same as your question. No, before, prior. I was going to say something in response to what you just said a minute ago about this, what this is. Because the way I would read it is, Lupu says, I have one thing to ask you people, and then the one thing is, if this is so, blah, blah, if this is not so, isn't that the one thing, those two?

[28:47]

That statement, isn't that the one thing? Well, it seems like what you just said is, if this is so, then you're adding a head on top of your head. That's what it seemed like. You just said, well, isn't it this? Isn't it these two? So then you just put yourself in the first category, I think. So he wants to tell you one thing. And if you say it's this, all right, if you say it's this, then you're off.

[29:57]

So, maybe I misanswered your question. That you want to know what this is, and he's saying, well, If you say it's this, then you're adding something on top of your own head. But isn't that a common situation for us? To add something on top of our head? So again, we have this practice period. That's why this is a nice story for this practice period. Isn't there some tendency to add the practice period on top of your head? Isn't there somebody in this world who you add on top of your head? Isn't there something that you add, some of this, that's really adding something on top of your head?

[31:02]

All the time. And don't we do that? So, we've got that. And then what about, what's the other one? How about not doing that? Yes? I've got a sense of the way that he's pointing to his own body and saying, if this is so, then you're adding the head on top of the head. If you say it doesn't exist, then you're denying his form, and neither one will be. Yeah, that's another way. And do you do that with your body? It's hard to, again... Again, who is the one who walks around with a body and is not a companion of the body? How do you brush your teeth and take care of your body and take yourself to the doctor's office and have a hospitalization policy? How do you do that without becoming a companion of that? Of making the body into a that, into a this?

[32:03]

Isn't that Isn't that inconceivable? And then I say that because a monk said to, later in the thing, a monk said to Lu Pu, what is the practice of the inconceivable? And Lu Pu said, the green mountain is always moving its feet. That's the practice of the inconceivable. But then he says, the bright sun doesn't shift its orb, which is similar to don't hang a lamp at broad daylight. How you doing? So this is a... This is about the practice of the inconceivable.

[33:07]

And then it says, no, no, the green mountains are always doing what? Dangling their toes? Huh? Moving their feet? They're dangling their toes down in the water? Does that make sense? The image is that, one of the images is that mountains are mountains are forms, you know, like bodies or this is and stuff like that. Alright? Like Having a body is like a green mountain. And it isn't that you say, okay, the practice of the inconceivable is pretend like green mountains aren't there. Because you've also maybe heard the expression, what do you call it, first there are mountains and there are no mountains. So there are no mountains, but where are there no mountains? Where are there no mountains? Hmm? In the mountains.

[34:33]

Well, in the mountains, but sort of like right at the edge of the mountains is where there's no mountains, right? Where the mountains end is where there's no mountains. And where do the mountains end? Well, the two places they end. One is they end at the top, I guess. But they usually use the image that they end at the bottom, the bottom of the mountain. The top is they end in the sky, and the bottom, they always say mountains always end in the water. The foot of the mountain is the end of the mountain. The toes, the tiptoes of the mountains are the end of the mountains. It's at the end of the mountain that there's no more mountains. Which means you don't sort of like deny the mountain or deny your body. You go to the end of your body. You admit that you have a body or your human thinking or you're, you know, you're this and that thinking, or you're good and bad thinking, you're thinking of good and bad, you go, you walk down, you walk all the way to the bottom of the mountain, and at the bottom of the mountain, the mountain moves its feet.

[35:45]

And that's the end of the mountains. And the mountains are always moving their feet. At the bottom, their feet are always moving, they're always like losing themselves at the bottom, at the extreme, okay? And at the same time, in the end, we get cured of our sentiment. If you study your sentiments all the way to the end, like to the end of your life, like when you're ready to die, in fact, you finally come to a place where you say, well, will you let me go, dear? I mean, I love you, but I'm actually going to go away now and not see you anymore. Is that okay? Will you let me go? I'm really going. But without dying, in the sense of like final death, you can study your sentiments all the way to the end of them and in that sense become cured of your sentiments.

[36:46]

Renouncing worldly affairs means that you study your sentiments rather than acting from them. Or that you study yourself acting from them rather than just acting from them. And you study them to the end In studying them to the end, you reach the practice of the inconceivable, which is where the mountain's feet are moving. Now, what's his business about the sun, the bright sun doesn't shift its orb? What do you think that means? Or you don't hang a lamp out in broad daylight. Help. Yes. Right. Yeah. Or the sun doesn't, like, move around to help us understand things. Now, is it... Now, I already asked, don't we have a tendency to put this head on top?

[38:04]

Don't we have that tendency? And in some sense, this introduction is kind of like paying, admitting that we have this tendency. And when we're suffering, we have a lot of trouble when we're suffering, not putting a head on top of things. And if we do put a head on top of things... There's misery, and if we don't put a head on top of things, there's misery. It's very tricky to find the right practice when we're suffering a lot. So we have a tendency to put a head on top of things, to put a head on top of ourself when we meet our experience. But also, isn't there a... Don't we have some aversion or some uneasy feeling about the practice of the inconceivable? Don't we want to do a practice that's conceivable? Now, strictly speaking, there is a practice that's, there is a conceivable practice, a practice that you can conceive of.

[39:12]

And in the usual presentation of the Buddhist path, there's five paths, one of the, you know, and the first two paths are the conceivable path. You can have a self and do the first two stages of the practice. But when you forget the self, then you enter into inconceivable practice. So what shall we do with our problem of having some fear, resistance, disinterest, and so on, to inconceivable practice? How are we going to deal with that? Or how can we put it the other way, say we like to do conceivable practice and do conceivable practice in such a way that we'll be free of it. How would we do conceivable practice to free ourselves from that and therefore be able to enter into inconceivable liberation? Confess. Confess what?

[40:14]

That that's what we're doing. Yeah, right. You know, did you have noon service today? Did you read the thing about the grass and the walls and the tiles and the pebbles and how, you know, all simultaneously, people in all these realms are turning the Dharma, inconceivably turning the Dharma wheel, unremitting, unceasing, blah, blah, blah? That's about inconceivable liberation. Did you read about that today? Was it far out? That's about inconceivable liberation, that part there. And it says, all this, and it tells you about all this fantastic stuff, you know, the inconceivably great Dharma wheel getting turned by even people in hell, right? It says, all this, however, does not present itself to consciousness. This is not in the realm of what you can conceive of. You can conceive of this, but your conception will keep breaking down, and you'll keep saying, oh, no, not really, I don't get this really, blah, blah, blah. And if you really do say, well, this really is happening, well, then they'll lock you up. Say, well, don't you see those little walls and tiles running around there doing that stuff and teaching the Buddha?

[41:17]

You can have a vision like that and just say it's a vision, but if you actually think that's what's happening, then you're confusing something which is inconceivable and putting it into a conceivable category. This is not a conceivable thing. It doesn't... There's no trace. This process permeates grass, trills, walls, tiles, pebbles, and consciousness. It permeates consciousness, but consciousness doesn't permeate it. There's no consciousness in there watching this. Okay? So, don't you have some problem with inconceivable liberation? And what are we going to do about that besides confessing that we've got a problem? Actually, you don't have to confess you have a problem with it. Having a problem with it is not really so bad. It's that your practice is a conceivable practice that you shouldn't. So tell me about that when you have a chance. Any questions? I see a hand there.

[42:21]

A foot? Well, I was just saying, what if you don't worry about it? What if you don't worry about what? The conceivable practice. What if you don't? I just said, I didn't say you're supposed to, I just said, don't you have some aversion to it? Don't you have some feeling that it's kind of chilly? Don't you have some feeling that you're going to get left out? What are you going to do with your conceiving equipment? If you don't have a problem with it, then temporarily at least, for the time being, you don't have a problem. But I have a sense that people do have a problem with this. If you don't have a problem, if you're not worried, then it's not a problem. But I'm trying to surface that we have a problem with this story because it's a story about inconceivable liberation. And then we wonder, what am I going to do with all my... What am I going to do with the equipment that I watched the 49ers games with? Run away! Really, I didn't understand what you're saying.

[43:30]

I was sitting at the table tonight and somebody said, I think something like, well, if you put aside idle chatter, or what was the word you said? If you abandon vague discussions. If you abandon vague discussions, then there's not much to talk about. And I thought when she said that, I thought, well, at least you can say that. But then she managed to go on and talk quite a bit longer. I don't know what it was. I don't know. what she was talking about, but... Indulging in it until tomorrow when we really catch up. And after tomorrow, you'll be no more vague discussion? No, my fellow practice students will help me.

[44:35]

So part of the irony of this class is, are we doing vague discussion here? Don't say yes, please. You have vague listening? I don't understand what vague listening would be. Not listening. Really? And what would that be like, not listening clearly? Just sort of taking in bits and pieces and then making up stories. That's what I imagine it to be. Well, it seems to me that what we do mostly is we take in bits and pieces and make up stories. That's what That's what the usual presentation of the process of conceivable experience is, is that somebody goes, hello, goodbye.

[45:49]

We humans hear that. We take that sound and we convert it into a story. The story is that person said hello to me and spoke English or whatever. So we never let anything come in. without converting into it. We never let anything come into our conscious awareness without converting it into a story that we have. Basically, we convert it over into our conceivable stories. We have a storehouse. So I don't know how I did, but anyway, as you said that about... When you said that, I said, I converted what you said into one of my stories, and I told it back to you. Now, was I listening to you clearly or not? That's the question. Did I hear, did I really hear something? I don't know. You did. Yeah, I don't know either. I think sometimes, so I don't know exactly what vague listening would be. What you call vague listening, I call all the listening that we do.

[46:53]

So then all discussion is vague? Vague? Then all discussion is vague? No. If you understand what's going on, for example, if I understand that what I'm saying is just me talking, then I don't think I'm being so vague. I think I'm just realizing I'm just expounding some thoughts. I think I'm being quite precise about what I'm saying. What I'm saying is not truth, but it's just simply an expression of my understanding based on not based on partly what you're saying to me, but mostly on what I think. I don't think that was a vague statement, and I don't think it was a true statement either, just my thoughts being converted into words. That's my fairly clear presentation of what I'm thinking and a fairly clear statement on my part. I don't know how you would listen to that in a vague way.

[47:54]

Oh, I was interpreting that any kind of speaking or listening has to be vague because the true meaning always gets wrecked. That's what I was... Well, again, I agree with you in the sense that whatever... Not so much that the meaning gets wrecked, but that we always convert what comes to us into stories. But to me, that doesn't necessarily mean that meaning got wrecked. It wasn't like the meaning was there before I said anything, and that after I started talking, suddenly I destroyed the meaning. I don't think the meaning is something that my talk can damage. But my listening could. No, I think that the meaning is how you're actually listening. I think the meaning comes out of the energy that comes to being with what's happening.

[48:59]

Like the story I told yesterday, you know, about the sokhayana, somebody says, well, what are you meditating on? What's your meditation based on? He said, emptiness. And he said, well, is there any meaning in that? And he said, if there was meaning in it, it wouldn't be empty. And he said, well, aren't you wasting your time meditating in that way? And he said, I'd be wasting my time if I wasn't, if I was doing anything but that, I'd be wasting my time. So, You know, in the Juhamira Samadhi it says, the meaning is not in the words. So when you say the words, the meaning is not in the words. But the meaning responds to the arrival of your attention and your energy. When you pay attention to what you're saying, something comes forth to meet you there in the coming of your energy. Something meets you there. So in other words, they're saying that there's, that mindfulness gets, gets, there's some, that mindfulness is a kind of request that you make.

[50:21]

When you pay attention to things, it's a kind of, it's considered to be a request. And reality comes and meets you in your mindfulness. Or like, mindfulness, the mountain, there's a mountain, you know, mindfulness means to walk to walk to the bottom of the mountain. If you're mindful of your processes of conception, if you're mindful of how you use words, then you reach the bottom of the word or the bottom of the mountain. You reach the end of words, which also reach the beginning of the mountains and the beginning of words. Then you're not so much fooled by your words and fooled by the mountains, because you see your words start from your breath. They didn't start from reality and then walk forth carrying it. They just came up out of your thinking and your breathing. But again, we have a tendency to think we have to put a head on top of our words.

[51:31]

We have to make our words into this, that our words are something other than words. Don't we do that sometimes? I mean, either what I'm saying is true or false. We tend to think that. But either one of those is adding something to it. It doesn't have to be that much. It can just be that I'm talking. Yes? Well, at least in literary terms, doesn't there have to be something to words other than just the words themselves? I mean, even trying to understand this, don't you have to take it with some deduce and listen? Well, to say it again, it doesn't have to be something more to words than... Doesn't there have to be something more to words than just the words themselves? Well, there is something more to words than... Well, there's a lot to each word. Each word has a tremendous amount of cause in it. I mean, Each word that we use, I mean, if the words I'm using now mean something to this group of people, there's a lot of training and history that went into being able to use these words.

[52:35]

There's a tremendous amount of causal conditions for each word. But what you said was, and this is kind of difficult, you said, isn't there something more to the words than just the words? Right? there's nothing to the words in the first place. Because of the fact that the words, there's so much contributing to the words, there's nothing to the words. That shows the emptiness of the words. Because the words depend on so much, if you take away all that makes the word, take away all the letters, take away all the history, take away all the convention, take away all the ways the word's been used over history, take that all away, and the word has... It just... What is symbolism? What is it when a word signifies something in the art itself?

[53:39]

What is that? You mean, how does a word come to carry symbolic meaning? Yes, sir. And what is symbolic meaning? Well, again... If you want to know how it comes to get symbolic meaning, you can study the history of the word. You can see how the symbolism grew up over time, how the different squiggles and sounds came to carry some power to represent something else. If you want to know what is the actuality of the symbolic process, then how are you going to talk about that without that being another word? It will be, right? So then you start using words to zero into the process itself. And there is a process. When you start thinking about it, it's conceptual. And if it's conceptual, you have to convert that process into a word. And you're still in the realm of words. It doesn't mean you can't get beyond the realm of words.

[54:44]

It just means that the words are... the way you have to study the words in order to get free of the words. So our bondage to conceptual consciousness is through words. By studying the nature of words, which is a way to study the nature of conception. By studying how words work, you see how conception works. By studying conception thoroughly, you can become free of conception. For example, the word pain. If you're aware of pain, what you're basically working with is the word pain. Still, it's even hard for us to look at the word pain. But if you study the word pain long enough, you can get free of the word pain.

[55:47]

And then do you get in direct contact with the actual pain? Yeah. And maybe so, but that's not really the problem. The problem is the pain which traps us, which we believe is real. which we run away from, which we do things to distract ourselves from, rather than study. Now, why do you suppose he didn't like what this monk said, which is a perfectly good statement about the inconceivable, isn't it?

[57:13]

The monk basically said what he said about the practice of the inconceivable. So he's giving his final instruction to his monks about not putting a head on top of your head and not cutting off your head to seek life. Okay, is that all right? No? It's okay? Linda? What's going on? Well, I mean, it was final until somebody said something. Up to that point, it was the final thing he said. I just don't understand why he says I have one thing to ask you, but then there isn't really a question there.

[58:20]

Well, how about I have one matter to ask you about, okay? I have one situation to ask you about. Here's a situation, okay? If you say, this is it, you add a head on top, okay? If you say, this isn't it, then you cut your head off in order to, you know, seek your life and not be in a situation where you're putting something on top of your life, okay? That's a situation. That's what I'm going to ask you about, okay? All right? He's asking about that situation. So this coming off the head is an act of renunciation that would enable him to give up life and then further embrace it. This is the idea. I think he's saying, if you think that would be renunciation, if you think, again, if you think that to renounce attachment to life you should cut your head off,

[59:25]

That won't work either. Renunciation isn't another conceivable technique. You have to give up all your conceivable techniques. And doing the opposite of your conceivable techniques is another conceivable technique. Okay, say, in a situation like that, I want to ask you about a situation like that. I want to ask about that. What about such a situation? That's the matter that I'm raising here right now. I'm talking about, you know, again, I'm talking about, he's saying, I want to talk to you about right action. And right action is not something you know about. Anything you know about is contaminated by your actions. by your preconceptions. They're contaminated by what you think. If you know, then you're acting on the basis of what you think is true.

[60:32]

So, then your action is contaminated by it. I'm asking you about, given that all these kinds of contamination are possible, in a situation like that, where you could go this way, it's off, and you go that way, it's off, then what? And this monk says this thing. The green mountains are always moving her feet. And don't hang up a torch at bright daylight. What's wrong with that? It's stale. It's stale. You think it's stale. Well, there's one person who thinks it's stale. And the inconceivable is not stale. The realm of conceptuality is stale. I've been translating some comments, some poems by a Zen teacher on the Shobo Genzo.

[61:34]

One of the most common words that the poems end with is fresh. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And fresh. Fresh. So, the inconceivable is scary if we think about it, but that's our stuffy old self scared about it. But again, trying to avoid the conceivable is another kind of dusty, stale old approach. It's just a reaction against it. So, anybody else want to criticize what this monk said or defend him? Yes? If you're going to try to use it? Yeah, but when you're studying the conceivable, you'll also try to use the conceivable, won't you? What do you do with it?

[62:37]

Well, Maya just said you confess it. Like, All throughout this class I've been constantly using the conceivable. But I'm always, you know, a little bit embarrassed by that, especially when I'm talking about the inconceivable. But whenever I talk about the inconceivable I'm always in the realm of the conceivable. So, regardless of what I'm doing there's always some conceivable busybody here. Even I sit at the table And this woman says, when you abandon vague discussion, I'm sitting there, I'm listening to her, I'm listening, she's saying, oh, she's sitting at the table, this woman's sitting at the table with me talking about abandoning vague discussion. And she says that if you do that, you won't have much to say. And I think, now what's she going to say? Because that's the way my mind works, you know. I was waiting to see, would this be the end of her talking?

[63:40]

And she said, no, not until tomorrow. But this is all in the realm of conceivable, okay, or the conceivable. So you might say, well, if I try to practice the inconceivable, I'll probably try to use my conceivable equipment to do it. But you might not. You just might go ahead and use your conceivable equipment to live your life, and you might not fall into that. You might, for example, when you go sit in a zendo, you enter the room, you sit in a cushion, and you might not use your conceivable equipment to practice the inconceivable. You might just sit there and not know what in the world you're doing, and not try to figure out what you're doing, and not tell yourself, well, now that I don't know what I'm doing, I'm practicing the inconceivable. But you could also sit there and say, now that I don't know what I'm doing, I'm practicing the inconceivable. But that statement is another conceivable statement, right?

[64:42]

And that's not practicing the inconceivable. That's just you patting yourself in the back. But before that, when you actually didn't know what you were doing that for, why you were spending your time doing something you're getting nothing out of, although that's a conceivable comment, in fact, you were sitting there not knowing what you're doing for a while. And not knowing what you're doing, really not knowing what you're doing, you're not really conceivable. As soon as you say you are... then you're making a conceivable concept. You're judging it as, this is the inconceivable or this is me doing that. But it is possible to spend some time, every moment, not being involved in companionship with the world. In fact, that is already going on right now. It's just that that activity is not going on in the realm of consciousness. This process is not a conscious process.

[65:46]

However, if you don't pay attention to your conscious process, that will turn into a great hindrance in realizing this inconceivable realm. Because you'll be putting so much energy into denial and dishonesty and cowardice. Yes? In addition to confessing it, would one also take refuge in it? Take refuge in what? In the inconceivable, that you can only really be in the conceivable, and that you can't get into that realm. Would you confess that you're in the conceivable, did you say? Yeah. And take refuge in the what? In both, in the conceivable and the... Well, you know, you confess that you take refuge in the conceivable.

[66:51]

Okay. But you shouldn't intentionally take refuge in the conceivable. You should just admit that you're intentionally taking refuge in the conceivable. It is, in a sense, a transgression which you are involved in. By strong habit, your mind keeps going into the conceivable. It can't help it, basically. It's always going into the conceiving, it's always conceiving. Everything, basically, everything we're dealing with in daily life is conception, and nothing but. It's not reality, it's always our conception. What, you know, these lately, you know, you and I have been getting along pretty well, you know. The way you're conceiving me and the way I'm conceiving you, I mean, you conceive me, oh, he's pretty nice, I conceive you, you're pretty nice, gave you a nice Buddhist name and all that, right? Yeah. That's my conception of you. That's not what you are. And that's also my conception. That's just not what you are. And I have, you know, the more I think about it, the more my thinking leads me to think that you're not what I think you are.

[67:57]

Because when I stop thinking of you, and I do occasionally, you don't... As far as I can tell, you don't go up in a book of smoke. I can stop thinking of you for hours and you just go right on with your life. You know, we can all stop thinking of you. It doesn't really have that much effect on you. When we do think about you, it does have an effect on you sometimes if you know what we're thinking. But basically, even though it has an effect on you, basically your life goes on very nicely regardless of what I think and you're not what I think of you. But I do think of you as a certain thing, and you think of me that way. I admit that, that's fine. You admit it, that's fine. I don't take refuge in that process, though, even though I'm locked into it. I take refuge in Buddha. Buddha is to understand that I'm conceiving... Buddha is to understand that I'm conceiving you all the time. And Buddha is to understand that my conception of you is not you. My conception of you is just a circle of the water in the ocean of you.

[68:58]

It means to actually understand that. I take refuge in that understanding, the teaching of that understanding, in the community of practitioners of that understanding. That's why I take refuge and I go to that. That means I go to admit that I'm conceiving of you and conceiving of everything else. I go to that understanding, to that practice, to that awakening, out of that conception, out of that delusion. That's why I take refuge in it. In actual fact, I confess that I do take refuge in the conception very strongly, and I never miss a beat on that one. That's why I have to do a special practice over and above that of taking refuge in Buddha. Una? So is it possible to consciously experience the inconceivable realm? No. The inconceivable realm is perfectly protected, perfectly protected from our consciousness. Consciousness does not touch it. However, the nature of consciousness is totally illuminated by it.

[70:04]

Consciousness is illuminated by the inconceivable, but consciousness never gets into the inconceivable. It always breaks down because consciousness is of conceivable entities. The objects of consciousness are conceptions. Objects of mental consciousness are conceptions. So as soon as you're dealing with the inconceivable, the consciousness breaks down. However, The inconceivable completely pervades and is uninstructed entirely by the conceivable and saves the inconceivable completely. That's why you can go ahead and conceive all you want. Because inconceivable compassion doesn't ever put the brakes on no matter what you're thinking. And no matter what you're thinking, you can't interfere or dent or scratch or disturb at all this indestructible, immovable, unshakable compassion. Yes? When we have fears about the inconceivable and the conceivable, are they overlapping them?

[71:12]

Why are we so afraid of the inconceivable that we can't... Well, some people, some people are not afraid of the inconceivable because the way they conceive of the inconceivable they're attracted to. Okay? But a lot of people, the way they think about the inconceivable is obnoxious. So it's the way you're thinking about the inconceivable that it sounds cold, it sounds inhumane, it sounds psychotic, blah, blah, blah. And in fact, the image that you have is psychotic a lot of times, and is cold, and is cruel, and is spaced out, and is dishonest, and is kind of like trying to be better than other people, and all that kind of stuff. It is breaking the precepts. It's a lot of bad stuff that people come up with when they conceive of spiritual practice. That's why it's dangerous to conceive of spiritual practice. And you're lucky if some of your conceptions really stink to you, if you think they're really stinky. Because they're just conceptions, they're not the practice.

[72:14]

The practice is about freeing us from our conceptions. Because we believe our conceptions are realities. We actually think that what we're thinking is true. That's why we get in arguments. we actually think once in a while that we're right. Some people think they're right basically all day long. And basically what they're doing is they're calling their thinking right. And it never cursed them that what they're calling right is their thinking. Even though a child sometimes can look and see, oh, I hate that person because of what I'm thinking of her. Rather than I hate that person for being that way. The person is not the way you think they are. And most people will say, wait a minute, I'm going to get a bunch of people to, you know, testify that they are. In other words, you can get a whole group of people together and affix blame and say, this person is a bad one. In other words, I thought she was bad and now everybody agrees, so now we all together can prove we have a reality now.

[73:23]

Four people have agreed this person's a jerk, therefore... All of our thoughts now are reality. We are the people whose thoughts are not just thinking, but we produce realities in our brain. Some people actually think that way, and some of those people are in this room. Some of us spend part of the day thinking that what we think of somebody is a truth rather than what we happen to think of them. Like there's, you know, I actually do sometimes think of somebody and think, that person's really sweet. And I sometimes, even the same person, I might think a little while later, that person's really sneaky. I might think that in the same day about the same person. Or even more extreme thoughts, I might think about the same person, or certainly a variety of people. Now when I think, oh, this person's sweet, and I think, oh, this person's sneaky, do I stop and think that maybe neither one of those are reality, but both just thoughts that I'm able to think of the person, and there's something about the person that let me think those things, and I can get other people to agree to that maybe?

[74:28]

But really what I'm observing is that I had a sweet thought about this person, and I had a thought of this person being sneaky. That's what I was thinking. And again, to say that that's really that, then again, I'm making that thought into a reality. In other words, we're totally, as a Zen teacher in Case 37, go back a few cases in this, Case 37, Guishan says, all living beings just have karmic consciousness boundless and unclear and there's no like fundamental to relay on everybody is just involved in this kind of karmic jungle producing world you know we're dreaming up stuff all the time that's all we've got it isn't like buddhas are sitting there dreaming up real images you know like they dream what comes up in their heads in the words in their heads are realities no It's that when the delusion comes up, they see what it is.

[75:32]

So if you're afraid of the inconceivable, and I think most of us have some uneasiness about it, it's because of the way we're conceiving of the inconceivable. The inconceivable actually is totally painless liberation. Yes? Getting the impression that you're saying that all of our conceptions are completely false, whereas... No, our conceptions aren't false. Okay? All complete misrepresentations, whereas... No, they're not complete misrepresentations either. They're perfectly good representations, and we actually have a lot of cooperation in how we use them. So that, like, I can say, that's Eric, and a lot of people will agree with me, and so I can use that word over and over, and, you know, and if you change your name, you know, and I keep saying Eric, and people say, no, he changed his name, and I sort of gradually get used to that, and I stop saying Eric, and I start saying Peter instead. No, it's not a misrepresentation. It's just that it's not reality. I was thinking maybe an alternative view would be, with respect to small mine and large mine, it's okay, but it's just not complete.

[76:46]

Is that okay? I mean, representations are just a small representation of a whole. Yeah, right. But, yes, but it's taken, my representation of you is not taken from a small part of you. It's taken from a small part of me. Okay? It's incomplete. Yes, my view of you is incomplete. But not only is it incomplete, but I got the incomplete picture of you from myself. I didn't pull it out of you. You happened to me, and then I looked back at myself to see what it was. And in fact, that does not typify all of you, and even if I say it out loud to you and say, did you mean that? If you say yes, that still doesn't typify all of you. So it is incomplete, and it's misplaced. if I think it's about you, because I just looked into myself to get what you were. Now, if I realize that I got my version of you from myself, then I'm on the right track.

[77:51]

That's getting closer to the actuality of my process, but it's still not about you, it's about how I make you up. But until I admit what I'm doing to conjure you up from myself, I don't have much of a chance to figure out what you are. it is possible actually to get to know what other people are in the inconceivable realm that's what's good about it is we can actually can meet each other out there beyond this this little box we put each other in which is kind of why buddhas are kind of coming back saying this you know bringing this good news and have all this compassion and patience and you know warmth and stuff, because they've consulted this realm where all these little boxes have been seen through. Yes? I use the word consciousness in two different ways. One is and the description of my conceivable, being in a conceivable realm, saying, I think I got this part of the picture.

[79:03]

And the other is to describe some sense of knowing that something was created and experienced through this vessel that I didn't create, but is growing or present, but somehow some part of me thinks it had the . I feel that consciousness is the closest thing to the inconceivable, but it could never meet that bridge. well the conceivable from the conceivable point of view its consciousness is completely inseparable from it okay it's only from the conceivable point of view that there's any separation between consciousness and the inconceivable okay it's just that the conceivable realm doesn't get into the inconceivable because you can't get the little to grasp the huge okay But from the huge point of view, there is no separation.

[80:08]

All these examples of consciousness are totally in rapport with the inconceivable. Which is why if you consult the inconceivable realm of liberation, no matter what state of consciousness you're in, there's continuity, there's constancy. In other words, you have courage to continue through whatever state of consciousness you're in because every state of consciousness is illuminated by the same reality, which is the constant transcendence of every state of consciousness by its own nature. So every state of consciousness is totally pervaded by the true nature of consciousness, which is inconceivable. Now, the later part of the story, where he says, now please, see this, then the next monk has a better answer, okay? Namely, you know, no, well, first of all, teacher, please, don't ask.

[81:10]

That's what he first says. Don't ask. So he has a better answer right away. And the teacher invites him in, and the teacher gives him the instruction of his teacher for him to meditate on. And what does his teacher say? It's very much what we're talking about. In front of you, there's nothing. There's nothing out there in front of you. Because everything out there in front of you, you reach back inside yourself to see what it is. So the instruction here will be a further meditation on what we've been talking about tonight. So I would suggest to you, if you want to, to break this story up into, you know, well, it's basically several parts, you know, right? There's the first part where he lays out the situation and says, what about it? And And the monk comes forward and gives a very nice answer, but just happens to be the teacher's answer, which you can find in the commentary. So whether he was copying the teacher or not, I don't know.

[82:13]

But maybe he was. Maybe he was just coughing back what the teacher said earlier. Anyway, I don't know about that, but Martha thought it was stale. All right? So he scolds him. Then the other guy comes forward and says, please don't ask about this teacher. Please don't ask about this. And he says... So he comes forward and says, please don't ask about this. The teacher says, good, good. Let's hear more. Do you understand? The teacher says, I want to ask you about this. And the elder comes forward and says, don't ask about this. He says, good, let's hear more. You're getting the idea here. You didn't fall for what I said. I wasn't really talking about this. And what I was talking about is not talking about this. So, you know, you asked me not to, and I won't. So tell me more. And he says, I can't. I can't tell it all. I don't care if you can tell it all. So then he invites him over later to discuss more. And then he gives him this other instruction from his teacher to meditate on this process again.

[83:15]

So there's several parts. There's the first part where he lays out the situation. The monk comes forward with a stale answer. The other monk comes forward and says, let's not talk about this setup. And he says, good. And that's the second part. Third part is he comes to see him and he gives him some instruction. So then there's this instruction to meditate on. And there, which is the host and which is the guest. And the third part is, after he gave him the instruction, and also, we don't know if this second part of the dialogue happened right away or not. He might have said, he might have had him over and said, please look at what my teacher's instruction was. Look into this instruction. Before the eyes there are no dharmas, there are no things. The meaning is before your eyes. This is the dynamic, okay? There's nothing before your eyes because whatever you see out there is coming from your own mind. But the meaning is before your eyes. Okay? It's not all turned around and look back here. Because, in fact, you put it out there.

[84:19]

Then he says, that is not something before your eyes. It is not within the reach of the eyes. Okay, that's the second thing. Now, it might have been years later, but not too many years later, because Lu Bu is about to die. Anyway, we don't know how much longer it took the monk to come back with this next thing, where he comes back and says, I don't understand. But you could understand this, that he took this instruction and he meditated upon it, and his understanding was, I don't understand. Or you can say, you can have whatever you want. But anyway, there's a different part. First, the setup. The monk with a stale answer. Him coming forth with a good answer of saying, let's not talk about this. And I can't say it all. And then the teacher inviting him over for further instruction. Then the second instruction, which is maybe pointed to the, another pointer into this situation that he's described in the beginning. And then the monk's answer. And then,

[85:20]

that's over, and then the mother monk comes and says, what about you, teacher? And then he explains the overall picture of what he was doing. So there's several parts there, and it'd be good if you could put them out and look at each part by itself, and enter each part by itself, and maybe work on one at a time. And do all this... while being a busy conceiving person, okay? And admitting that your conceptuality is necessary in order to enter into this story, and this story is about freeing yourself from the very equipment you use to enter into the story. All right? So, good luck. May our attention

[86:13]

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