Here in this temple, we just started a training period yesterday. This is the first talk of this particular training period, which will last until about December 16th. I wanted to begin this talk and also this practice period with expressing something about the context of, excuse the expression, Buddha's practice or Zen practice. The context or the worldview in which the Buddha way is practiced is sometimes described as a situation where there's two truths.

[01:19]

Two truths. And one's not better than the other, but they function differently. The first truth is sometimes called conventional truth. And the second truth is sometimes called the ultimate truth or the truth of ultimate reality. Two truths. So the first truth, the conventional truth, is the recognition that there seems to be separation among living beings, that we perceive separation, we see things outside ourselves,

[02:31]

And we agree that certain objects of our perception have a kind of existence, a kind of existence which we can agree on, like there's a ceiling there above us, and most of us agree that there's a ceiling. We don't have to agree that the ceiling really exists separate from ourselves, but we do feel that way, that we're here and the ceiling's there, or that I'm here and you're over there and you're over there and these other people are separate from you. This is the conventional world. Sound familiar? So that's one truth, that there is this perception of separation.

[03:37]

Now, it is not conventional truth that that separation is real. I mean, it's substantially real. That's not conventional truth. But in fact, it is also, I think, been observed by many people and by Buddhas, that people do take this apparent separation as real. Not just something we perceive, but as a substantial reality. And if we do that, then if we grasp the conventional truth, the conventional reality as something more than just that, then we have all the problems of the world. And many people do grasp the sense of separation as real, therefore they feel anxious and do many things to assuage that anxiety, which is based on grasping our perceptions as real, our perceptions of separation as real.

[05:00]

The other truth, the ultimate truth, is that we're all fundamentally interdependent and that we are intimately related with a basic reality all the time, in which there aren't even the appearance of separation among us. That there coexists right now with us all the time, always has been and always will be, an ultimate reality, where there aren't any separate people, plants, animals, stars, mountains and rivers, where everything exists simultaneously and mutually supporting, and there aren't any independent things.

[06:27]

And this total interdependence allows for living beings to actually perceive that they're separate. That a reality, a totally interdependent reality has allowed creatures called humans and allowed them to think and perceive that they're separate. It has wonderfully allowed us to see things in a way that's not reality. And it even has allowed us to grasp, I should say, to see things that's not ultimate reality or ultimately true. And it even has allowed us, it even allows us to take what is not ultimately true as ultimately true. As far as I know, not all the possibilities of the universe have been realized.

[07:33]

But we've realized a few of the more amazing possibilities in human form. These two truths are, one's not better than the other, but they're different. Turns out that you need to study and be familiar with and understand the conventional truth before the ultimate truth is taught to you, taught to us. And I don't know if you are familiar enough and intimate enough with the conventional truth. But anyway, I told you about the ultimate truth, so please don't use the ultimate truth unless you're grounded in the conventional truth, unless you're intimate with the conventional truth, please don't use the ultimate truth too much.

[08:40]

So for example, if you're really intimate with the fact that other people think you're separate from them, that they think you're separate and they might not appreciate you treating them as though they weren't separate. If you really understand that thoroughly, then maybe you can open your heart and body and mind to the inseparability of yourself and others. But to do that without, to skip over the fact that you and others feel separate sometimes and perceive separation could cause big problems. I guess it looks like you kind of understand that. Actually, both the understanding of conventional truth and the understanding of ultimate truth, in both cases, understanding both of them would both lead you to be very, very gentle with living beings.

[09:57]

If you understand that people feel separate from you, you'd be very careful if you touch them. You'd be very careful because you know they feel separate and they could be shocked if you touch them. But also, if you realize they were inseparable, you also would be very gentle in touching everyone, anyone, anything. Does that make sense? The gentleness and tenderness would follow from understanding both the truths. So from the ultimate perspective, ancient practitioners who were really grounded in the ordinary world of separation were able to, you know, speak certain words, and they said things like, all...

[11:23]

all living beings are born at the same moment as the mountains and rivers and the great earth. And all the Buddhas of past, present and future are practicing together with each person When you're born, the mountains and the rivers and the great earth are born at the same moment. And when the mountains and the rivers and the great earth are born, you're born at the same moment. They're not born ahead of you and then you, or you and then them. It's at the same time. And as soon as you're born, and every moment of your life

[12:30]

as long as you're a person, all the Buddhas, even Buddhas in the past and future, are practicing together with each of you, with each of us. How can we understand that all the Buddhas are practicing together with each of us Well, what is the practice of a Buddha? The practice of a Buddha is to practice in precisely the same manner as the entire universe and all living beings. That's the practice of a Buddha. A Buddha practices in the same way as the whole universe and each of us. Buddhas are totally, totally, wholeheartedly engaged in practicing with us.

[13:54]

They are not trying to control us. They're totally participating in each of our lives in each moment. That's the practice of a Buddha. And they also practice together with the mountains, the sky, the ocean, and all other living beings besides human. That's the practice of a Buddha. The practice of Buddha never excludes any of us, any of our bodies and minds. Our bodies and minds are always included in the practice of Buddhas. And because of this, we should not think that we are separate from Buddhas. We are not separate from Buddhas. There is no Buddhas practicing separate from us. They do not have a separate practice. This is a description of Buddhas practice in the ultimate way.

[15:09]

The conventional perspective is that we are separate from each other and separate from Buddhas. We don't deny that perception. There is that perception. There can be that perception. Rather than denying that perception that we're separate from each other and from Buddhas, or rather than affirming it as real, we just need to become intimate with it. And based on that intimacy, we can receive the teaching that we are not separate from Buddhas. The teaching, the first truth, is necessary because it's true. It's necessary to accept the first truth, to become intimate with it, to become grounded in it. But the first truth does not liberate us from the first truth. and does not liberate us from this sense of separation.

[16:23]

The ultimate truth is what liberates us. We need the ultimate truth to become free of our perceptions of separation. We need the ultimate truth to become free of the first truth. And we need the ultimate truth to become free of the ultimate truth. Well, we've got the first truth. and we've got the second truth. We've got the conventional truth and we've got the ultimate truth. We need to become intimate with both. That's the context of practice. So we practice with the understanding that all Buddhas and all living beings are just one mind. and there is nothing else. There's no extraneous things. This is the ultimate truth.

[17:27]

How do we become intimate with the ultimate truth? How do we become intimate with the relative truth? Well, with practice, a practice which doesn't defile either. Since you are already practicing together with all Buddhas, all you need to do is not defile that wonderful reality. You don't have to do anything to make things be really good. They already are, ultimately. And in the realm where you think you have to do something to make things really good, I don't say you should not do things to make things good.

[18:39]

I don't say you shouldn't do that. I say good. Good. Go ahead, do something to make things good. But more important is understand that that's the conventional world you're operating in, where you're doing what you think is good. And if you think something's good, well, it seems that it would be good to do it. But it's not really true that you're doing it by yourself. Actually, all the Buddhas are practicing together with you each moment that you're trying to do something good. And in the world where you're trying to do something good, you often think this is good and this is not good. But even though you're doing what you think is good and avoiding what you think is not good, the Buddhas are practicing together with you. And if you're doing what you think is not good, as opposed to what you think is good, the Buddhas are practicing together with you. If you're doing what you think is good, you need to be intimate with you doing what you think is good.

[19:42]

If you're doing what you think is not good, you need to be intimate with you doing what you think is not good. By becoming intimate with these, you'll understand how that world works. You will be grounded in that world. You will suffer in that world. You will be grounded in the suffering of that world. and being grounded in the suffering of that world, in the working of that world, you can hear the teaching. You can understand deeply that everything you do and everything everybody else does, good and bad, is together with all the Buddhas, one mind. And right along parallel with all the things you're doing and not doing, parallel to or intimate with that is a practice where you don't defile this one mind. Where you do a practice which doesn't defile the one Buddha mind.

[20:47]

Where you think about and bring into your heart all the Buddhas and all sentient beings. When you bring into your heart all the sentient beings that you're practicing with, you deeply ponder that you're practicing together with everyone and that your practice is the practice of all living beings and the whole universe. That is your practice. You ponder that without defiling it. How would you defile it? Again, by thinking perhaps that you can do something by yourself about it, that you can increase it or decrease it, that you can do it right or you can do it wrong.

[21:56]

that you can have it or not have it, that you can grasp it or reject it, and to do the grasping of it or the rejecting of it. That you could make it into something that's a perception. These are ways that you can defile the one Buddha mind. So we are both living in a world where we feel trapped by separation, where we manipulate separate things from ourselves, where we grasp them and reject them.

[23:00]

We're trapped in that world, in a sense. We feel in that world. We don't feel one with other beings. We don't feel one with the Buddhas. We feel separate. We live in that world, and we live simultaneously in a world where we're not separate from other beings. both of those truths we live in. So... So there's many... ways that those two worlds can manifest together. One which I mentioned the other night was a story, one of the first stories, one of the first books I read about Zen was called Zen and the Art of, what comes next? The Art of what? Motorcycle maintenance? Wrong. Archery, right. So it was about archery.

[24:00]

And so one of the flowers of Zen in Japan is this art of archery. It's for people who don't want to just sit in meditation halls, who want to do something a little bit more martial. So the basic instruction of the archery is that the archery teacher gave this Western person, this German, was pull the bowstring back and just hold it until the string is released. Not you releasing it, but until it is released.

[25:03]

He said, it will be like the string will go through your fingers. This is a practice which in a sense straddles both truths. One truth is this bow string is drawn and it's not released. And I could release it with my fingers, let go with my fingers and release it, but I'm told not to do that. The other truth is this bowstring is released. It's already released. Hold this string until you understand it's released. And be intimate with it not being released. But intimate with it not being released means you don't try to figure out some way to release it, and you actually don't even figure out some way to hold it.

[26:10]

So anyway, he did that. This person held that string for some time. I don't know what the Japanese archers did, but anyway, this Westerner held a string and he held it for several sessions, I don't know how many, and gradually he got the idea of some way to help the releasing process. He was supposed to wait until the string was released, but he thought, well, maybe there's something I could do to aid this process of liberation that wouldn't be me releasing it exactly, and yet it would get released. So he thought he had this idea. What is it? It's like... Is it Zeno's paradox? Anyway, to hold the string half as strong. And then to hold it half of half.

[27:15]

And then to hold it half of a fourth, which is the eighth. And then hold it half of an eighth, which is the sixteenth. And finally... Again, he just kept cutting and halving it until finally he was holding it, whatever fraction of what you're visually holding it. And without letting go, it was released. And I think the archery teacher saw him right at that moment and said, get out. Get out of the, get out of here. And don't come back. So I think, I don't remember the story exactly, the way it was told, but anyway, I think he knew what he had done, that he had defiled this practice. He was supposed to be doing a practice which embraced the world of where you can do things, and yet he wasn't supposed to be doing something.

[28:19]

He was living in the world where he could let go of the string, but he was told, don't get into doing something. straddle the tension of the world where you're released, where the string's released, and where the string's not released. Accept the truth that the string is not released and accept the truth that this world is released. But don't do anything to convince yourself, don't do anything to convince yourself that the string's released. Just wait in the world where you feel it's unreleased, wait until you understand it's released. But don't do something to understand it's released. But he did something so he could understand it was released. And the teacher saw what he did. He defiled this release. He defiled it so he was kicked out of the practice space.

[29:25]

He begged for, I don't know how long, years to come back. I think finally the teacher let him come back and let him pull the string again and just hold it. Hold that unreleased state. Hold that state of where we don't believe. We don't believe that we're released from the idea of separation. Just hold it. Because that's where you're at. You think this isn't released? Well, just face what it's like. It gets boring. It's painful. It hurts. So we want to do something so the hurt will go away. But the hurt doesn't go away by doing something. The hurt is actually just because we think we can do something to make it go away. When you don't try to make it go away, you develop your confidence that you're already released.

[30:36]

When you don't try to do something to realize you're connected with everybody, you develop your certainty that you are connected to everybody. the string is already released, if you don't believe it, then feel the unreleasedness. Just feel it. That will be the basis for you to ponder simultaneously while you don't think you're released, simultaneously while you feel cut off, to ponder in your heart that you're released. That you don't have to do something to be together with all Buddhas. And Buddhas are not something other than you. So during this practice period, instead of pulling a bowstring,

[31:53]

and holding it until it's released. We sit a body on the meditation cushion. We stand a body on the floor and on the earth. We walk a body. But each step of walking and each time we stand and each time we sit, we try to find the way to sit, which is not using this sit to get something. Which is using this sitting first to recognize that we don't believe the ultimate reality, if we don't. We don't trust it. And second of all, even though we don't really trust it, to celebrate it. To celebrate what we're not convinced of. to celebrate that we are not other than Buddha, that Buddha is not other than me, that you are not other than Buddha.

[33:04]

You sit with that sense. That when you sit, you are practicing, you sit as a testament to the practice that you do, that you are doing, to the life that you are living, which is together with all beings and all Buddhas. You sit that way. And also, while you sit, you honestly admit that you're not convinced of that. And because you're not convinced, there's a stress, there's a strain. And you also admit that you would like to do something to get rid of this stress and this strain that you have while you're sitting or standing. And we're a little bit more lenient here than at that archery studio. If we notice that somebody while they're sitting is trying to do something to relieve the stress of thinking that they're separate from Buddha,

[34:10]

We don't kick them out immediately, usually. We're tempted to do so, but we realize that if we did it immediately, on every occasion there would be nobody here. So, honestly speaking, it's hard to get somebody who can kick the other people out. Because almost everybody sometimes feels like tweaking this tension that we feel, doing some little thing that would release us from this sense that we're separate, from the pain of thinking that Buddha is somebody else. We all sometimes slip into that, and that's okay. It's okay to slip into thinking that some people are separate. What the problem is to do something to try to fix that. Buddha comes into the world and is practicing together with all the people who feel separate from Buddha.

[35:19]

Buddha's together with everybody who feels separate from Buddha. So if you feel separate from Buddha, that's okay. Buddha's not going to bust you for that. What Buddha might bust you for is to try to do something to not feel separate. That defiles the non-separation. In other words, you don't believe you're connected to the Buddha, so you do something. That's the thing that sometimes people get a little strict about. But here we're not, so don't worry. So again, the context of many Zen stories is that the people in the story are being very careful in the world where there seems to be separation, are very careful in the world where there seems to be right and wrong.

[36:36]

And because they're very careful and very intimate with that world, they can have dialogues like this. A very careful monk comes to see a teacher, and the teacher says, where do you come from? This teacher's name is Hui Nung, and the monk's name is Huairang. Huairang comes to see Hui Nung. Huairang says to Huairang, where do you come from? Huairang says, I come from Mount Sung. These are Chinese people. Huineng says to Huairang, what is it that thus comes? What is it that's actually happening right now? What is ultimate reality? What is Buddha, who's practicing together with all beings, what is that?

[37:44]

And Huay Rung says, to say it's this misses the mark. What is Buddha right now? What is ultimate reality right now? To say it's this misses the mark. And then Hui Nung, the great teacher, says, well, then is there no way to practice and no way to realize this truth? No way to realize the truth of the Buddha? No way to realize the truth that we're all practicing together and that we're not separate from Buddha? No way to realize that? No way to practice that? And Huairang says, I don't say there's no way to practice and there's no way to realize. I don't say there's no practice and there's no realization. I just say it can't be defiled.

[38:52]

We need to be so intimate with it that we can't point at it or point away from it. We need to ponder deeply this teaching of the oneness of Buddhas and all beings, and that that's all that's really going on anywhere in the universe, we need to ponder that so intimately that we can't point at it anymore. We can't defile it because we're so close to it. So I don't say there's no way to practice. I just say that you can't defile And I don't say there's no way to realize. You just can't defile it. And then Hui Nung said to Huairang, this undefiled way has been cared for and protected by all Buddhas. Now I'm like this and you're this way too.

[40:00]

Now I'm this way. Just intimate And you are too. This kind of interchange is the way some Buddhas practice together. You don't have to practice exactly like that. You can have your own story of how you don't defile the one mind. You can have your own story of how somebody asks you about it and you don't defile it.

[41:07]

But there's so many Zen stories about how the people come together and see if they can practice together without doing something to practice together. We're coming together and we're practicing together, but really, the way we really are practicing together, the way we're liberated, is the way we don't do, because we're doing it together. Ponder this deeply in your heart until you're convinced." Huirong was convinced. Before he even met his teacher, he was convinced. But he continued to train himself, more and more deeply convinced that all living beings and all Buddhas are practicing together, that they're inseparable, and they have just the one mind, and there's nothing else.

[42:17]

So Huay Rang had one particular disciple. He had several, but he had one particularly important disciple who many of you have heard of before. His name was what? Huh? What? Matsu, Matsu Daoi. Matsu means horse master or cow master. He wasn't master of the cows. He was a master that was like a cow. And Daoi means one path or one way. So one day his great student Matsu was sitting in meditation and he came up to Matsu and he says, what's happening. And Matsu said, I'm sitting to make a Buddha. And Huairang found a tile, a roof tile, I guess, maybe, and sat down where Matsu could see him and started rubbing the tile.

[43:38]

And Matsu said, teacher, what are you doing? And Huairang said, I'm polishing this tile to make a mirror. And Matsu said to Huairang, teacher, how can you make a mirror out of a roof tile? And Huairang said, how can you make a Buddha out of a sentient being? by sitting in meditation. Sitting in meditation doesn't make sentient beings into Buddhas. It doesn't. No matter what kind of meditation you do, there is no meditation that will make a sentient being into a Buddha. But there is a meditation practice which is the meditation practice, which says, I don't know what it says.

[44:43]

If it talks, it doesn't necessarily talk, but when the meditation practice starts talking, it says stuff like, thank you very much. Thank you very much. I don't know who I'm saying thank you to, but thank you very much. For Buddhas and sentient beings practicing together and being just one mind, thank you. And thank you for letting me sit here, even while I don't believe that, and not try to do something to get rid of my doubt. Thank you very much. And thank you very much. And thank you so much because I'm not going to defile this situation by trying to make this person be a Buddha. Because I'm certain enough that this person's a Buddha, that I'm not going to do anything to get rid of the sense that I'm not a Buddha.

[45:50]

I'm just going to sit here. That's it. I'm just going to live right now. I'm not going to defile the truth by trying to improve it. This is the essential art of meditation, this non-defilement. this non-messing with a truth that cannot be improved, this not messing with a truth that releases us, but simply little steeping ourselves in the teaching until we're convinced.

[47:05]

and steeping ourselves in the world where we feel separate until we're convinced that that's not ultimately true. Being intimate with both truths, which means not preferring one over the other. Just like when you're intimate with two people, Believe it or not, you don't prefer one over the other. Somebody does, but you don't. Not the intimacy doesn't. Everything's possible. The question is, can you say thank you to everything? and not defile it.

[48:20]

So is there a song about this? Oh, yeah, there is. But I don't know it. It's a song something like, how does that go? You know, if I could change this about you, I wouldn't. You know that one? Do you know that song? No. There's something about, if I could change this such and such about you, I wouldn't do it. That is not enough. It's not enough, I guess. How does it go? Zippity-doo-dah, zippity-ay. My, oh my, what a wonderful day. Plenty to do-dah, plenty to say. Yeah. Zippity-doo-dah, zippity-yay. My, oh my, what a wonderful day. Sunny sunshine at my way.

[49:35]

Zippity-doo-dah, zippity-yay. See, we're all practicing together. Even though you mean to pay it a compliment by saying, meeting you is so nice, I'm going to possess you. Some people think it's a compliment that they try to possess somebody.

[50:39]

Well, it is kind of a compliment. but it's also what he called being ungrateful. So I think ungratefulness and defilement are very closely related, and non-defilement and gratefulness are very closely related. And sometimes you say thank you, And then the next moment, well, there's enough of that. Now let's move on from thank you to more, please. Thank you and more now. Yes. Well, part of compassion is... In some sense, part of compassion is that you are aware, you're listening to the suffering that people feel, the anxiety they feel in perceiving the world and Buddhas as separate.

[52:05]

That's part of compassion. then a development of compassion is actually wishing and understanding what the conditions for the anxiety and pain are, and wishing that people would be free of this delusion which is the condition for their suffering, and also wanting to do whatever would help them become free of the delusion which is causing them suffering. Is everything else but compassion has a place in both? Would you say that louder, please? Everything else is but compassion, they have a place in both, too? I'm not quite getting ... you said every ... what did you say?

[53:09]

Everything else in life. Everything else in life. Like compassion, and anything else that we know as a human being. I don't understand me, even my God, because I feel like there's a point when my heart opens, these truths will come together, or they just cross each other in a poem, that that's what I feel my humanity grows. Are you saying that the two truths, where the two truths cross? is where you feel your humanity most? If my heart is open and if I feel compassion towards, or I feel compassion inside my heart, then there is no this truth or that truth. I don't know. The two truths are inseparable, so maybe when you feel compassion, they're almost, you feel how they're inseparable.

[54:15]

When you understand that you're connected to someone and you see them suffering, then you understand the ultimate truth that you're connected, that you're interdependent, but you see that they don't understand it, so they're suffering. So your understanding of connection makes you feel compassion for them and their suffering. So in that sense, those two truths are connected. You may even also yourself see them as separate to some extent, but also not be enchanted by that perception of separation. So since you're not enchanted by the feeling of separation, you naturally feel connected to them and their suffering. So the two truths are together when you feel compassion.

[55:20]

When you understand ultimate truth, you naturally feel compassion for all beings. When you're certain and convinced of ultimate truth, you feel compassion for all beings. But you feel compassion for all beings who don't understand that conventional truth is just conventional truth. It's not ultimately true. Being humans and having language and so on, we set up a world of things which are different. So we create this conventional world together. You understand that, and you feel compassion for beings that don't understand it. And you want them to understand that the world in which they're suffering is the world which they think is true, which is not.

[56:30]

They think it's ultimately true, therefore they give too much to it. They give too much reality to it, so they suffer. you understand how that works and you feel compassion for them and want them to understand themselves how that world works. Okay? Yes? So, feeling compassion... for all sentient beings and for the universe is ultimate truth. Wanting to... Wanting... Feeling compassion isn't exactly ultimate truth. Feeling compassion for suffering. Feeling compassion is something that arises naturally when you understand ultimate truth.

[57:31]

When you understand ultimate truth, you naturally feel compassion for those who don't. But compassion is a little bit different than ultimate truth or understanding. Understanding is a little bit more like what we call wisdom. When you understand ultimate truth, you have Buddha's wisdom. Buddha's wisdom sets you free from the suffering that arises based on delusion. So then once you see how things really are and you're free of the suffering of delusion, you also, by seeing the way things are, naturally feel compassion for those who don't understand it. But compassion is a little different than seeing how things are. Compassion is wanting to help people understand the truth which you understand. So understanding the truth gives rise to compassion. But compassion is a little different than understanding. Compassion is the way you live when you understand. So you're saying that wanting to help people is part of what compassion is.

[58:38]

You're not saying that... It's pretty much all of what compassion is. Compassion is almost all just wanting to help people. So this wanting to help people, this wanting to change something, Wanting to change things? It's not, no, that's a tricky point. I'm getting at that point. Yeah, yeah. That that perhaps is the conventional truth part of... Of compassion? Versus not wanting, seeing and feeling and hearing, as you're calling it, the wisdom part of compassion, has nothing to do with wanting to change things. Right, right. Or do something about it. Right. So could you say something about... Well, there's different kinds of compassion. There's compassion which is based on There's compassion which is so-called... You can feel compassion before you understand ultimate truth. Okay? And that compassion could be that you still think people are separate from you.

[59:40]

You still believe that... You think that and you believe it. And you still want to help them in their suffering. And that is compassion. But you might think that you have to change them. You don't understand that they don't need to be changed, that they're already perfect. They just don't get it. So you're distinguishing the desire to help, the desire to change from the wanting of life to be alleviated. They're two separate things. Well, they could be connected. But in fact, if you think people need to change or get better or something, in some sense you're defiling the situation. It's not so much that people already are fine, they just don't get it sometimes. But the wanting to help is different. You can want to help people in a defiled way or undefiled way.

[60:42]

defiled way would be based on not yet seeing that the person is already fine. They just don't get it. Like some, you might look at someone and say, they're ugly. And if they were beautiful, they'd be happy. So they're miserable because they think they're ugly. And I think they are too. So let's get them, you know, get the face fixed. Well, that's fine. That's a nice thing to do. But you might actually see that already without their makeup on, they're already beautiful, and they don't get it. And you might be able to convey to them that they're already beautiful, and then they understand they're already beautiful, and then you can put makeup on. In the meantime, if they aren't ready to understand that they're already beautiful and it would make them a little bit happier to put makeup on, put makeup on. Become a, you know, cosmetologist.

[61:46]

And, you know, do nice things for people. Fix their hair, cut their hair, trim their mustaches, or shave their hair off entirely. You know? Do nice things for people. But you could do that for them without thinking you're really improving them, or you could, you know, because you think they're unimprovable. Right? Well, I still don't see how the wanting mind is from ultimate truth. Wanting them to feel more beautiful, wanting them to be more fully accepting of themselves. Yeah, well, it's hard, but the Buddha actually does have a desire. And what the Buddha desires is that these perfect beings these beautiful beings, these beings which are, you know, lights of the universe, the Buddha would like them to understand their light. Because if they don't understand their light, although they're just as bright, just as bright before they understand is after, from the Buddha's point of view.

[62:55]

They don't get better from Buddha's point of view. Buddha doesn't want them to get better. Buddha wants to understand that they can't get better But Buddha does want that. And understanding ultimate reality still gives rise to this strange desire that all beings would understand what they are. But you don't want them to be different, you want them to understand what they are. And you say, wouldn't that be different if they understood? Well, you could say understanding is different from not understanding, but it turns out the kind of understanding they get is one where it actually isn't different. So it's kind of a little bit hard to understand. But anyway, just think of an example of someone who is very beautiful, like this beautiful baby. Right now, she doesn't think she's gorgeous or un-gorgeous. But when she's four or six or ten, she may think, oh, I'm not very good looking. But her mother and other people know she's beautiful.

[63:58]

So it isn't that you want her to become beautiful, it's that you want her to understand that she's beautiful. You do want it, because you know that if she saw that, she would see reality. But you don't want her to get more beautiful. That's not what you want. She wants to get more beautiful, and that's why she's suffering, and you want her to become free of that. But you could want somebody to become free of it before you understood that they're already what they want to be. So there's different kinds of compassion. Different kinds of wanting. Different kinds of wanting, yes. Let's see. I don't know who's next. Who is next? Were you? Okay. You have a good seat. You can tell all these people in front of you raise their hands after you. He said, Martin said, do I think therapy could be helpful with dealing with anxiety?

[65:12]

Could therapy be helpful in sitting with the separation? Yes. Matter of fact, I used to be a psychology graduate student and one of my master's papers was about separation anxiety. Little did I know how useful that paper would be eventually. My advisor made this comment. He said, you know what I think the Zen Buddhists do about anxiety? What they do is they attach to everything in the universe. So then when they lose various things, they don't get anxious about it, getting separated because they're attached to everything else. But at the time I thought, that seems a little simple or something. But there's something to it. It's got a grain, some truth in it. You know, therapy, the root of the word therapy means to attend, to attend.

[66:16]

So I think part of therapy is that you go in a situation where you get some help in attending therapy. to what's happening. So another person sometimes can help you attend to your anxiety or sit with it. Maybe we're like, you know, wallowing in our anxiety. That's not really attending to it. That's like sticking your head into it. It's too much. But maybe we're leaning back from it. So the other person may feel like, you know, it's kind of like, what is it, that game, you know, where you're trying to find something and you say, warm, warmer, hot, cold, you know? So a therapist can say, oh, I think you're getting too close to the anxiety. No, you're getting too far. It can help you attend in this kind of, find real intimacy with your anxiety. So yes, I think a therapist, another person or a whole group of people could help you tune into your anxiety and achieve intimacy with your anxiety. When you're intimate with your anxiety, basically you have the appropriate relationship with it.

[67:21]

When you're intimate with your anxiety, you become intimate with the conditions for the anxiety. When you become intimate with the conditions of the anxiety, you become free of the conditions of the anxiety, which means you can become free of the anxiety. Okay, and therapy can help that, or I would say whatever helps that is therapy, whether it's a professional therapist or a friend. And I think some therapists are, you know, that's what they're there for, is to help people become intimate with their anxiety. In my experience, therapy is usually talking about your own personal situation. When I was in therapy, I didn't address it as, in fact, I felt similar to what it was just... based on my own experience. So when you were in therapy, you didn't talk about what's happening to you in terms of feeling separate from people. Right.

[68:24]

Yeah. So it may be that you go to therapy, but somehow either the therapist and or where the therapist feels you are is such that they don't want to, they don't feel yet it's time to mention to you or to bring your attention to the fact that the reason why you're feeling so miserable is because you feel separate from people. Maybe the therapist doesn't even know that. Some therapists don't know that teaching. Or some therapists do know it, but they feel like, if I mentioned this to the person, they're getting actually close to seeing this, but I don't want to say anything. So maybe actually you got really close to seeing this, but your relationship was such that it didn't become clear to you that your anxieties and sufferings were dependent on this sense of separation. Because even if the person is a so-called therapist or Buddhist teacher, they may not rush you into this awareness.

[69:32]

They may feel like, he doesn't really want to hear this yet. And I don't want to get him to shy away from it because he's actually getting kind of close. And if I say something, he may storm out of this situation. Sometimes when somebody's getting really close to seeing something, if you push them too hard, they go into reaction. And then, you know, they won't look at the thing for years because somebody pushed them too hard. So it's possible that that when you were doing therapy, it wasn't the right time for you to see this. And then when you moved to Zen practice, somehow it was right. And now maybe if you went back to therapy, the therapist would be able to mention it more literally and go deeper with you. Or you might go back to the same therapist and they might say, don't bring that up, I can't stand to look at this. I've heard that many therapists, and I know in Buddhist practice too, the thing that people most don't want to talk about is what's happening right now.

[70:51]

You know, they go in their room, there's another person there, right? Hello. Let's talk about this conversation I had with so-and-so yesterday. The therapists don't necessarily say, well, you're talking to me right now, what about this? They usually don't force that on the person, but sometimes they do. They say, well, what about, there's something happening right now, would you like to talk about that? No. But maybe some therapists also don't actually want to talk about what's going on right now. So, actually, I have two kinds of meetings with people myself. One kind of meeting is they can talk about what's not going on now, You know, they can talk about other people, like they're talking to me, right? They come and talk to me about somebody else who's not me and who's not them. So that's called an informal discussion. Let's talk about something other than this, okay? Anything but this. And then the formal one is you don't talk about something other than this. You talk about this.

[71:54]

And I find it's important to be able to distinguish between when you think you're talking about somebody else and when you're talking about yourself. So have one kind of meeting where you only talk about yourself and nobody else. There's nobody else. Even the person you're talking to, you're not calling them somebody else. And another kind of meeting where you kind of play with this idea that there is somebody else, that there's you and the rest of the universe. Right? You know that kind of conversation? Yes? Yeah? I found that... I was thinking that practice and realization can't be defiled like it's impossible to defile it. Yeah. So one way to understand it is it can't be defiled. One way to understand can't be defiled is shouldn't. And the other way is it's impossible to.

[72:56]

And both are right. You can't really defile it. But if you think you can, that's good enough. And also, if you think you can't, that's also good enough. In fact, you can't, but if you think you can and believe that, then you do. Just, you know, believing what you think defiles it. Pardon? In other words, the only way you can defile it is to dream that you defiled it. The only way you improve the world is to dream that you improve it. Now, someone would say, isn't it an improvement in the world for everybody to wake up and be enlightened and be happy? I would say, well, I don't want to say it's not an improvement, but I think it's better than an improvement. I think somehow, I don't somehow want to get into that it's an improvement for everybody to become Buddha.

[74:04]

So again, I like to work for something, I like to devote my life to something that I don't see as an improvement. And part of the reason why I do that is because it's too hard for me to get into improvement And it's too hard for me to not indulge. It's too hard for me to get into improvement. It's too painful for me to get into improvement. And I find it's antithetical to get into improvement. I find it hurts people to get into improvement. So I stay away from that without thinking that it would be not good and better not to get into improvement. So according to that, I should be able to get into improvement, right? So I can. But it's dangerous, this improvement thing. But some people say Buddhism is all about improvement.

[75:17]

Some people say Buddhism has no point other than people improving. So I guess I'm here to have a different point of view. I think it's about people understanding that we don't improve and that other people don't improve, but that the way of happiness is to be concerned with not other people's improvement, but other people being happy. And the way other people be happy is to free them from trying to improve themselves. and help them be concerned with how to help others. How to help others, again, realize that they're not really something that needs to be improved, but something that needs to be understood. So I'm into understanding rather than improvement, including preferring understanding over not understanding. Because preferring understanding over not understanding interferes with understanding.

[76:25]

Now, some people can't get started on developing understanding without thinking that it would be an improvement. So I would say, fine, go ahead, think it's an improvement. But ultimately, you've got to get past improving yourself in order to understand. I think Vivi was next. I think because we're animals. Well, they don't have the equipment, but they act like it. Like I just saw this video about coral. Two different species of coral fighting each other. Like they're covering two rocks. And this one, well, they actually create rocks underneath themselves. And this one coral colony was moving over and bumping into another coral colony.

[77:34]

And the more aggressive one started fighting the other one, and the other one backed away. And actually part of the surface that they were on became bald, where there had been coral before. It became bald rock. So animals are competitive. There's something about animal life that it's competitive. It's part of the deal. Well, it turns out that it's the competitive parts, parts you don't understand. Yeah. It looks like in the history, in the evolution of the animal species, that the ones who developed a sense of self had an advantage over the ones who didn't have a sense of self. That a sense of self is like a technological breakthrough. Just think about it.

[78:41]

You've got some animals who are living in a community, right? They're trying to get each other... They're trying to cooperate to protect themselves and compete with other animals. Then the first one among that group who has a sense of separation from the rest of the group has a tool that the other ones don't have. And that one sort of becomes more powerful than the other ones because they got this new tool which can give them an advantage over the ones who don't. So then that one becomes... more powerful, and that one becomes the one who reproduces most, most abundantly. And the other ones, the selfless ones, disappear. Like one example is, you know, you have two, two animals here, and they both have the opportunity to reproduce, right? Hello? Okay. And one says, one says, let me go first.

[79:42]

And the other one says, fine. So that one reproduces and the other one doesn't. So this one has babies and this one doesn't. Because this one says, hey, let me go first. It has been that way. Yes. But if you're not, you know, that lady left with her baby now, but if you don't need to have a baby, you don't necessarily have to compete to have that opportunity. You might be able to reproduce without giving in to animal competition. What's a contradiction? That in order to realize... To get rid of this competitiveness, we only have to be surviving. I didn't so much say get rid of the competitiveness.

[80:44]

I think you said, I thought you said that it was necessary to have the instinct of competitiveness. I thought maybe, did you say that? No, I said why do we have it. I explained some theory about why we have it. And then I thought you went on to say that it was necessary to have it. If we want to. If we want to. No, not necessarily, but if we want to make sure that we reproduce and that our genetic material goes on, if that's an important thing to us, then we might get in a situation where there's some competition. That's right. And then for that to happen, then a competitive spirit might be handy. But it isn't necessary to have the competitive spirit.

[81:48]

It's just that those who have it tend to take over, and the ones who don't are just kind of like nice people. So we have ancestors who weren't so competitive, but they were like the brothers and sisters, maybe, or the uncles and aunts of the ones who are really our background. So anyway, in terms of optimizing or promoting the possibility of selfish gain, then selfishness, of course, is part of the deal. But selfishness, although it is very powerful, it makes the people who are selfish unhappy. So selfishness is powerful but unhappy. So if you want to trade in power and unhappiness for happiness, then you also put the power aside and trade power in for love, and then you're not in the power world anymore, so then kind of like the big power world gets over there and you're kind of like out of it, except that you understand that you're inseparable from it.

[83:02]

You're just not buying into the power world. So you're not miserable. And you feel compassion for all those people who are into the power world. So you're not separate from them. And, of course, you love all these power trippers. But you're not going the path of power. But in fact, the path of power is powerful. In that world, they generate a world of power, and that's the world of power, of eliminating competition and so on. There is that world, that conventional world. I think maybe you were next. They eat better. Pardon? Then they don't get to eat as well. They don't. Oh, so? Well, I don't know. Being concerned with competing so that you can eat better or so that you're... Being concerned with surviving is unhappy. Being concerned for yourself to survive is an unhappy way of life, which most people have that unhappy life.

[84:08]

It seems to you that it's more unhappy if you don't eat? Well, it's kind of a... That's kind of... To say that it's kind of unhappy not to eat, that's kind of out of context, that not to eat thing. Well, it's really a part of you said that if you want to be in the power world, then you have to have the greed and you don't have the love. And it's almost... Well, here's what I think, okay? Here's what I think. I think that if you trade in power for love, okay, you might not get as much food if you're practicing love as if you're practicing power. I don't know. It's hard to say. But I think you will be fed very nicely for your whole life if you're totally devoted to love towards all beings. You might not get as much or you might not go to the same restaurants as you might go to if you were devoted to power, where they have power tables and everything, right?

[85:15]

Power breakfast, power lunches, and power dinner, and power tables at power restaurants with powerful people. You might not be one of the powerful ones, but the world will support you very nicely, very nicely, and you'll be very happy if you're totally devoted to loving all beings. You'll be just fine. But it's true, you might not get the same food as you'd get if you're really concerned with getting yourself a certain type of food, which you consider to be really good. And if you're really concerned with getting yourself good food, you might be fairly successful at that. But you'll be unhappy for every moment of that life. You'll be unhappy, miserable, anxious, afraid, and cruel the whole time. And that may lead to a better diet, I don't know. The other way The other way will be a diet that will be coming to you as a constant gift.

[86:16]

Every moment you'll be getting a gift of your diet. The food will come to you. In fact, that's reality. Food comes to you. You don't get it by power. It's given to you. From the moment you're born until you die, you get the gift of food. And if you're loving through that whole process, you're happy the whole time. When you switch to power, you're immediately unhappy and frightened. When you're not frightened, when you're not anxious, you don't go for power. You say thank you. And you get fed. That's what I think. I never saw anybody who tried it who contradicted that. Yes. I want to tell a story about archery. I'd like to share with you. It's sort of called archery and the art of monkey business. Okay. It's a prince who goes to a powerful prince, going along with all his troops, with his bows and arrows, meets a bunch of monkeys playing around.

[87:27]

Yes. And they all run away, except for one monkey. Yes. He can catch arrows. Uh-huh. And so the prince takes the bow and shoots right at the monkey. The monkey grabs it and smiles. And the prince does this again. And the monkey finishes. And the prince then tells all the people, all the people who shoot the arrow, whatever it's called, I guess, to shoot the monkey. And he dies. Because he couldn't catch all the arrows simultaneously. Thank you. What is it? Non-Zen? I'm the Zen guy? Why, thank you. Are you a Zen girl?

[88:27]

Yeah. In the Zen of Archery that you were talking about, I didn't quite understand about the release part of it. You didn't understand about the release part of it? Well, basically, In order to understand the release part of it, you have to hold the unreleased state until you understand that the unreleased state is no longer going on. And when you understand that the unreleased state is no longer going on, you also understand that the whole time while things were unreleased, they were actually released.

[89:31]

It's not because something changed, but that you were always released. As long as you think you have to do something to obtain release, you're still unreleased. You're still caught in the world where you think release comes and goes. But there is a kind of release that doesn't come and go. And that kind of release we don't believe in for some period of time. And we think because we don't believe in a release that doesn't come and go, we're involved in doing things to cause release. As long as we do something to cause release, we're in the realm of where release comes and goes according to what we do. And we spend all our time trying to do something to cause release from various situations, which is unhappiness, which we believe to be unreleasedness. And then sometimes we get a release by what we do, but that release is only temporary. And then we come back to be unreleased again.

[90:35]

But there is a release, an ultimate release, which doesn't go away and doesn't come, which is always there, we're always released. And if we just stop trying to do something to get released and just experience that we don't feel released, that opens the door to the release which is already there. So it's as though the release happens, but without us doing it. It's like the string going through your fingers. It's like as hard to believe as that the string could go through your fingers. But there is such a release, a release that comes not because of my own personal power, because the main thing to get free from is the illusion of my own personal power. It's released from the realm of personal power, of self-power, into the realm of where everyone's working together. And things happen by everybody working together.

[91:37]

And in that world, there's not another world where people are cut off and operated by themselves. It's just that in the world where everybody's working together, some people think they're not working together. But actually, they are working together. In the world where everyone's beautiful, there's some people who think they're not and think they have to do something to be beautiful. But they're in the same world with the beings who see and understand that they're already beautiful and don't have to do anything. But they don't believe it. So they do something to be beautiful. They do something to be released. But that beauty and that release are...

[92:21]

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