I've heard that there was once a great Zen master. They called him Matsu. When Matsu was very ill, on the verge of death, the director of the monastery came to see him and said, Master, how is your venerable health?" And Master Ma said, Sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha, as he was dying, asked how he was, he spoke of two kinds of Buddha.

[01:18]

A moon-faced Buddha, or moon-faced Buddha is the name of a Buddha that lives one day and one night A sun-faced Buddha is the name of a Buddha that lives for a very long time. There are two truths. One truth is the truth about how we live one day and one night. Another truth is that we live a very long time. We are moon-faced Buddhas in that we are born and die.

[02:33]

We are sun-faced Buddhas who are never born and never die. We are moon-faced Buddhas as we live separate from each other, as we live separate from our own experience. And in this world we're always anxious and usually afraid because our mind, our heart, is split in two, and we feel afraid of the other half of ourself. We feel afraid. We're anxious.

[03:36]

We feel threatened that it may not love us. In the realm of the sun-faced Buddha, there is no other separate from the self. There are no objects separate from subjects. Everything is working together, everything is intimate with everything else, and there is no birth and death and no anxiety. For the great Zen master, there's not just sun-faced Buddha, there's sun-faced Buddha and moon-faced Buddha.

[04:42]

And for many of us, there's just moon-faced Buddha, Now this story circulated in the Zen world for a long time, now 1,200 years. Many Zen teachers, many Zen students have celebrated this case. One of them wrote a poem. The poem goes, sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha. How can the ancient sages and emperors compare to this? For 20 years, I've struggled bitterly

[05:51]

How many times have I gone down into the cave of the green dragon for you? This bitter struggle deserves recounting. Clear-eyed, patch-robed monks do not take this lightly. This valley here is called Green Gulch, as you know. The name of this temple is Green Dragon Temple. In this temple there is a cave

[07:04]

And in this cave there is a dragon. And this dragon is inseparable from each of us. When you leave this valley, you take the dragon with you. And before you came, the dragon was with you. But if you haven't gone down into the cave where the green dragon lives, you have not yet done the work which will heal a split in your own heart.

[08:16]

You have not yet done the work which will mend the separation of yourself and the other. So basically, what I'm suggesting is we have to go down into this cave. We have to go down into the place where we can really feel that sense of otherness. and realize that it's not other. And when we realize this, our attitude and our actions will be changed.

[09:40]

we will no longer act under the illusion of independent existence. We will always act with our intimate companions in mind. We will join the activity which springs from intimacy with the green dragon and all the other dragons. Sometimes this descent into the cave, and I don't know exactly, this cave isn't always, what do you call it, decorated in the same way.

[11:06]

Usually it's really cold and slimy. with primordial gook dripping off the ceiling and oozing out of the walls. And this dragon is really cold and hard and covered with sharp edges, bristling with places to meet. But who knows? Maybe some of these caves are carpeted. and really hot. Anyway, if you hear Buddhist talk, you may hear the message that we are interdependent. and that there is no consciousness, there is no conscious being who is conscious, isolated from the objects that it's conscious of.

[12:27]

That when we are conscious, we are always conscious as a linkage as a subject-object linkage, as a subject-object connection. That's the only way that there can be consciousness. That's the only way we can be conscious. If subject and object are really separate, there's no consciousness. You may hear that, but we need to go to the place where we don't believe that, where we feel the consequences of feeling separate and realize that we're not, then it's not just words anymore. We can physically feel that we're not separate from the other. But we need to be able to tolerate this enlarged life

[13:29]

this bigger mind, this bigger heart, which contains opposing views. If we're peaceful people, we need to enter the place where peace and aggressiveness are not separate. If we're civilized humans, we need to enter the place where animal ruthlessness is inseparable from civilized behavior so that they can realize their interdependence. wound between animal and human is mended.

[14:34]

Otherwise the animal energy, the animal directness, the animal clarity of our life will act in disturbing ways. And the aggressive energy of our life will act in destructive ways. rather than being reunited with our love and being the source of great activity and harmlessness with energy. How do you go down into the cave? How do you go through this process? Again, as I was about to say but didn't, this process of going down into the cave is also sometimes called in Zen, the great death.

[15:44]

The great death of what? the great death of believing that we're separate, the great death of isolated existence, and the birth of interdependent life follows that great death. How do we go down into the cave to meet the other? How do we go through the death of our clinging to independent existence? Well, it's pretty simple. Just don't move. Now if some of you try to practice that now, you may run into some trouble later because we're going to try to clear away these chairs. So I don't say you should then, you know, cling to your chair after the talk's over.

[16:54]

If people lift you up and take you and your chair out to the storage area, don't be moved. Don't run away from what that's like, from the embarrassment of being such a weirdo. Actually, I would suggest if they want to take the chairs, you give up your chair. Find a way to get off your seat and get out of this room without moving away from where you are. So we practice a disciplined practice in this temple of sitting at a certain place. for periods of meditation, and standing at a certain place for periods of meditation, and walking step by step in meditation.

[17:59]

And if one actually doesn't move, stays where one is moment by moment, step by step, you go down into the cave. the dragon comes to meet you. You don't have to move to get there. You're already in the cave and actually you're already intimately living with the dragon. You're already intimately living with all human beings. But the human neurological equipment creates a sense that these other human beings are over there and that we live over here. That's just a neurological phenomenon.

[19:07]

Actually, we're already living a life which is one. We want to return to this sun-faced Buddha and realize it. But it's like death to the isolated person, and we're afraid of it. Our little mind has trouble growing to embrace the dragon. If you just sit still, even though the little mind is afraid, the dragon will still come because it's already here. The dragon is of infinite variety.

[20:18]

It can appear in infinite ways. They all share otherness. There's one way the dragon doesn't appear, and that is as you, the isolated you. It doesn't appear that way. The dragon is actually showing you the rest of the story of who you are. And the rest of the story of who you are is infinite. Still, the little mind is afraid of what will happen to it if it were to grow bigger and include the other. It's hard for the little mind to tolerate this growth. Once again, if you just don't run away from where you are, the dragon will come.

[21:26]

As Thoreau said, all you have to do is sit long enough in an attractive spot in the forest, in the woods, for all the inhabitants to exhibit themselves to you in turn. Not just the dragons. The dragon represents raccoons, skunks, mountain lions, and all those people that you haven't made friends with. all the things you feel separate from, they will all come to you if you sit in an attractive spot in the forest. Each of us is sitting in an attractive spot. Each of us is very attractive to everything else.

[22:35]

If you don't move, everything will come to visit. Sometimes they'll come one by one, sometimes they'll come in groups. But they will come. Like the movie says, build it and she will come. Build it means build a park. build a seating place and they'll all come. Now when people actually stop running away and they sense that visitors may come or they sense that if they give up running away they may die, the anxiety which we feel all the time starts to come to the surface.

[23:49]

And then we think it's time to move. If we didn't think so before, when the practice actually starts to work and the things that we've been pushing away, which are really our best and most intimate companions, when they start to come to us so we can heal the wound of our heart, we can become very frightened and then finally run away from that which comes right with us. So in order to go down into this cave, we need to feel that we are held and supported by something beyond our isolated self.

[24:58]

And this is a point that is not usually mentioned in the Zen texts. that this bitter work of descending into the green dragon's cave for the sake of mending this relationship with the other. How many times have I gone down into the green dragon cave for you? For you to be joined again to me. How many times have I done that? They don't mention that in order to do this difficult work, You need to be surrounded by love. Feel surrounded by love. You are surrounded by love, but you need to feel it. Enough to tolerate getting close to the other. I've been watching, this fall particularly, I've been watching people sit still, and I've been watching them go down into this cave, or I've been watching them as the dragon comes to visit them, I've been watching them have trouble with this.

[26:58]

what do you call it, the specter of this meeting, the harbinger of reunion coming to them and seeing how difficult it is for them. So that seems to be working fine. They seem to be sitting still and the visitors are coming. What I've mostly been emphasizing is asking them, are you loving yourself? Are you giving yourself love? And some of them say, yes. And then I say, how? And most of them say, I'm letting myself be the way I am. I'm letting myself be at the place I am. In other words, they're practicing patience with what it's like at the beginning of this meeting.

[28:04]

Some of them say, I'm being gentle with myself. Yes, that's right too. This is a way to care for yourself and love yourself as you're approaching and being approached for this meeting with the dragon. But I usually suggest to them now, in addition to this basic kindness, this basic love of letting yourself be where you are and feel what you feel, in addition to that, actually actively say to yourself, actually wish yourself the best. Say to yourself, may you be peaceful. even in this onslaught, may you be peaceful. Even in your fear, you can wish yourself deep peace.

[29:10]

May you be happy. May I be happy. May I be peaceful. May I be buoyant in body and mind in this difficult situation. May I be free In other words, may I practice patience with the situation. May I be free of affliction. May I be free of anxiety and fear. Even while I'm afraid, I wish myself this. Now this sense of love may sound like it's not coming from someplace else. something beyond the isolated self. It is, but it may not sound like that when you say, may I be happy.

[30:13]

You may think it's coming from the isolated one to the isolated one. Go ahead, think so. You already do anyway. But still, if you think in those terms, have the isolated one, give the isolated one the best wishes. And have the isolated one, the one you imagine to be isolated, let the isolated one be at her isolated seat, isolated from all the other seats. That's okay. And be gentle about that. But then... I haven't got to this stage with most people because they're working on this, but the next stage is then start wishing the others the same. Wish them the same. Wish the others, gradually all the others, deep peace. Deep peace and also, in the short term, deep peace to be able to sit through this process of reuniting with the whole world.

[31:27]

Deep peace through this potentially very stressful process of healing. which will lead to even a greater peace once it's complete, which will lead to a sun-faced Buddha peace, which will lead to an indestructible peace. Before getting to that place, may we moment by moment be peaceful in this process of becoming cozy with the big dragon. which has many little parts called each living being. For me, in a sense, each one of you is like a little scale on the dragon that I have to meet and vice versa.

[32:32]

I am an eyelash on the dragon for you, perhaps, or a toenail or a nipple. If you go out and look at the big bell out there, it's a dragon bell. You know, we're kind of concentrating a lot of imagery there. It's the bell for Green Dragon Temple, and the bell itself is a dragon. On the top of the bell, you'll see a dragon's head, a double dragon head. One for you and one for me. With horns and teeth. It's hard and cold and wet. And then you come down the bell and there's many little bumps on it. Little metal bumps. Those are dragon nipples. I believe there's 108 dragon nipples. What are the nipples for?

[33:39]

They're for nursing. And down at the bottom, the bottom little bump on the dragon is the dragon toes. The whole bell is a dragon. Patience is part of the love we should give ourselves and give to others in this process. Wishing ourselves well and wishing others well is part of what we give in this process. And as we reach the fullness of this giving love,

[34:47]

we can realize the fullness of receiving love. If you can wholeheartedly give yourself these wonderful good wishes, sincerely wish the best for yourself, when you reach the abundance of that gift, you have no problem giving it to some others. So, you have no problem giving it to someone you like. And when you wholeheartedly give it to someone you like, then you're ready to give it to someone who you feel somewhat neutral about, if there is anybody like that. And when you can give it to somebody neutral, you're ready to give it to somebody you like very much, if there is anybody like that, without getting entangled in the gift. And then finally you're ready to give it, if you do that fully, without getting stuck in attachment to this one you like very much, who you just now like even more.

[35:53]

Now you're ready to give to someone who has hurt you, or who hurts you, someone who irritates you, someone who you, you know, what do you call it, the really sticky, gooey, smelly, you know, broken glass part of the dragon. You're ready to give the best to that part of the dragon. And then to give to the whole dragon, you're ready to give this kind of good wishes and love to the entire world. And when you really can do that, then you can feel that support coming back to you. And then you can really sit still in the face of feeling the closeness of the other. then you're ready for the great death. And after the great death, there's a great rebirth. But now, it's not the rebirth of you separate.

[36:58]

It's not a rebirth, actually. The separate self doesn't exactly get reborn. There's a birth of the interdependent self. The peaceful, happy, buoyant, unanxious, magnanimous reality of the sun-faced Buddha. Once again, I see people who follow monastic practice, follow a disciplined program of meditation, either here or at home, I see them, they go down into the cave, the dragon comes to them right in their own little meditation room, right in their bedroom. The dragon comes. Isn't that nice of the dragon? When I was a kid, you know, Santa Claus goes around and visits all these houses, at least in Christian countries.

[38:06]

I don't know if Santa Claus goes to non-Christian places, but in countries where people practice Santa Claus worship, Santa Claus comes. And I was always amazed how Santa Claus could manage to visit all those places. But it happens, right? Everybody gets up and there's some present there from Santa Claus. It's a very complicated process how that works, but in fact, it can happen. And the dragon is even more all-pervasive and doesn't just come on Christmas Eve. The dragon's always knocking at the door, asking you to let it in. to heal the world, to heal the world by meeting the dragon, and to show others the courage to meet the other by meeting them. So I see people in this process, but then I see them start shaking in their boots, getting frightened and thinking something's wrong.

[39:15]

You need then to work more on love, loving yourself, loving others, and feeling held and supported by some others, many others, all others, so you can do this work. One time I was taking a walk up in these hills and he was a nice walk with a nice person, an intelligent, kind person. And his name was Mr. Green. Mr. Green was his name. Not Mr. Green Dragon, just Green. But actually now I see he was the Green Dragon. I didn't realize it until just now. After we finished the walk, which was not that difficult for me, we were standing outside this office.

[40:22]

This is like 20 years ago or so. The walk was done, it was time to go, and he was talking to me. And I was, I don't know, I wasn't really that interested in what he was saying. I felt like I wanted to go someplace else and do something else. But he kept talking, and he didn't give me a chance to say, well, thanks for the walk. He was just talking away, probably saying something quite interesting, but I wanted to get away. And the longer he talked and the more I wanted to get away but couldn't find a way to get away, I started to feel more and more suffocated and closer to death. But I couldn't figure out a way to say, could I go now? Or would you stop for a second so I could say, can I go now?

[41:26]

And I think the more I started to get weak, the faster he talked, because he was probably afraid he was losing me. He tried to get more and more interesting and more and more intense. And I became more and more withdrawn and less and less alive. And then, as I was almost ready to faint, I heard a voice inside me gently say, I love you, Rebbe. My name's Rebbe. The voice said, I love you, Rebbe. And I got some air. Life came back a little bit. But I still didn't have enough life, you know, to say bye-bye. So I said, could I have one more of those?

[42:28]

So another one, another I love you Rebbe came. And I said, Mr. Green, it's been great. See you later. And he said, bye-bye. No problem. No problem. The love's there. It does come. It doesn't come from yourself. That didn't come from me. I never thought of that. It's the first time I ever heard that inside myself. But now if I'm ever in trouble, I just call for that. It comes. Then I can face the situation and say, Mr. Green Dragon, I had it. Beyonce now. And then the dragon can say, oh no, don't go. Okay, what do you want to do? I don't have to leave, but I can talk.

[43:29]

I have a place there. I have life with the dragon. I can meet the dragon too, just like the dragon can meet me. going pretty well people are going down and I'm enjoying coaching them to get what they need to do this work it's good work but you gotta feel supported to do it and you are supported to do it so just get with the program of supporting yourself to face

[44:31]

the other, which is not really other. Do the work of going down into this cave where you meet the dragon and realize the sun-faced Buddha. So, is there a choral group that's ready to perform today? Huh? I guess not, huh? No. Well, there's a little choral group, you know. Does anybody know the words? Huh? You do? Do you know the words? You do? Come on. Up here. Okay, does anybody know the words? I have some words which are, I've done this song ten times, a thousand times, a million times, but it's apropos.

[45:36]

It's apropos. It's called getting to know you. I'm singing right now. Happy again. That was a good start. Very good start. We did support you. Nice support, huh? Yes. Getting to know you, getting to know all about you, old dragon. Getting to like you, hoping to hope you like me.

[46:44]

Getting to know you, putting it my way, but nicely. You are precisely my cup of tea. When I'm with you, getting to know what is easy. When I'm with you Getting to know what to say Haven't you noticed Suddenly I'm bright and breezy Because of all the beautiful and new Things I'm learning about you Day by day. He said, if you live in an attractive spot in the forest, and the dragon comes to visit you, and the dragon keeps growing,

[48:37]

What's a good response? Yes? Were you asking us for a good response? No, he was asking, but you can answer. I thought I would grow with the dragon. Grow with the dragon. Sounds good. What's my answer? What do you think my answer is? Something like what? Well, my answer actually would be when the dragon comes to visit, the appropriate response is your response.

[49:43]

people you would like, people you like very much, and people you wouldn't like. With the two extremes of people you like very much and people you don't like, I find you talked about not attaching to people you like very much. How do you do that? What's your name? Jack. Jack. What's your name? Frederick. Frederick. And what's your name? Roddy. Roddy. Is your name Ronnie? So I was talking about not so much meeting the dragon, but the development of the loving support

[51:06]

sense of being supported and held while you meet the dragon. And some people have an easy time giving love to people they like very much, but actually that's the third category. or sometimes even the fourth category, a person you give to, because if you give right away to people you like very much, it can make it harder to give to others. So after being able to wholeheartedly give love and best wishes to someone you feel neutral about, that prepares you for giving love to someone you like very much. Now if you can give love to someone you like very much without it turning into attachment, but actually just giving without necessarily hoping for anything back, then you're ready for the even more difficult thing of giving to someone who is painful or seems to have harmed you.

[52:21]

First to yourself. Actually in some traditions recently they say first to your teacher, then to yourself, then to someone you like. But in the Buddhist, in the old texts, it doesn't say to the teacher first. That's a later development. Some people have trouble giving to themselves because they feel like they're not worthy. So some people feel like, well, maybe if you can't give to yourself, give to someone you do respect, like your teacher. Then you sort of get in the swing of it by giving to your teacher, then give it to yourself, then to give to someone you like, and so on. If you give to someone you like or someone you like very much, and you don't give to yourself, you really don't give to them. Because you're holding back to yourself, you hold back with them. And if you give to yourself and you notice you're holding back, If you feel like you're holding back, then you may or may not notice it, but you hold back with them.

[53:35]

And if you hold back with them and with yourself, then you feel like they're holding back with you. But if you really don't hold back with yourself, and you really don't hold back with others, if you really do give completely to yourself and completely to others, then you can see that others are not holding back. Even the dragon's not holding back. But the dragon doesn't necessarily look like your idea of love. like a sweating dragon, you might not see the dragon's sweat as love. Or you might say, oh, that's really when the dragon starts sweating, then I know the dragon likes me. But some other people might say, no, no, that's not a sign of love. So we need to really be willing to love the sweat of the dragon in order to feel that the dragon's sweat is loving us. We need to love the world first and then save it.

[54:37]

Any questions about that? No? Okay. Yes. What's your name again? Rachel. It's presupposed? Okay, you can say that. That's fine. That's what Thoreau said, and I would say yes. I would say you are in an attractive spot. ... that you personally don't find attractive? Like myself? Yeah. If I'm in a spot that's not so attractive, then do I first need to love the place before waiting for the dragon or before I'm ready ?

[55:53]

Yeah. The dragon may come to you even in an unattractive spot, but if you feel like it's unattractive, you feel like, excuse me, let me clean it up here first before you come. Just like somebody comes to visit you and you don't have your bright clothes on or you feel like you don't have your makeup on or the house isn't ready, you don't want them to come yet, right? But they're already here, so it's kind of a problem. So what you have to do is say, go away. Go away. Or I'm leaving. So it's nice if you already have prepared yourself by feeling like, I'm ready for guests. But then sometimes you may feel like, well, I was ready for guests, but I wasn't, not you. So then you have to kind of like work in some sense on giving more love to the place you are and who you are and how you are in order to like be able to welcome this guest. But you could feel sometimes like, well, I thought it was a mess.

[57:09]

I thought I was a mess. But somehow I felt like it was okay and I let the guest in and it was all right. I thought I wasn't ready, but I was. At first I thought, no, no, not yet. And then I thought, well, maybe this is the right time. Let's try it. And pretty soon you realize that the messy house or the messy hair or the lack of hair or whatever, that it was okay. that who you are at the time actually was a suitable companion for your guest. But if you feel like, no, no, I can't do this, well then do whatever you need to do to make yourself feel like you can meet it. Fine. You say, now I'm ready. And so, come in. Hello. Hello. I don't know who was next. That's a whole bunch of people. Who was there? Did you have your hand raised? You did? Yes. Conversely, if you're the, oh, no, it's you, the person who personifies the guy, I have a situation where I'm trying to get a man to respond, and the initial apology just happens, but they're not ready.

[58:30]

Uh-huh, yes. So Judy's example was, what if you seem to be the dragon to somebody else? What if you're coming to meet and the other person says, no, I'm not ready, okay? Actually, I told this story many times of this person who liked carved dragons, and then a real dragon came to visit them, and they said, oh, no. So Judy's saying, what if you're the dragon who's coming to visit because you thought they would want to, like, meet? And then they say, no, I'm not ready. Get away. Well, then for the dragon, this other person is the dragon. You know, here you are coming with really as best you can see, you know, you really do want to make, you really do want to heal the wound.

[59:32]

You want to be friends. You want to be intimate. And they're not ready. So then they're the dragon in the form of, I'm not ready, dragon. I'm still afraid of you, dragon. I haven't forgiven you, dragon. I'm not, and so on. That's the dragon for you. So then you have to love yourself And patience is part of love for yourself so that you can wait happily. Wait happily, not wait, you know, starving yourself, but take care of yourself well until they're ready to meet. So you're the dragon for them and them not wanting to meet you. For some of us, some certain people wanting to meet us, that's the dragon. And for us, some of us, somebody not wanting to meet us is the dragon. Somebody withdrawing is the dragon and somebody coming is the dragon. So whatever is other is the dragon.

[60:34]

So when we're not ready or they're not ready, both cases it may be a time to be very good to ourselves and be very good to them. Wish them well while they're waiting to meet us. May they be peaceful and happy and buoyant, even though right now they're disturbed, unhappy and tense and heavy and afraid of me. And one key thing here is be careful in a situation not to pretend to be other than who you are. So, like, don't say, well, it's not really me who is here, you know, and put on a fake front so they'll let you in. That's not being kind to yourself. So I'm a person who you have trouble with, and I wish the best for this person who you have trouble with, and I wish you well having trouble with me.

[61:48]

that we may someday be able to meet. But I have to be me. And I know that how I am is really not you. And I don't want you to change into being me, but I also have to be very careful not to let you influence me to pretend to be somebody other than myself. So I have to have the courage to come and meet you as myself, and the patience to not rush it if you're not ready. The courage to come and meet you as myself, knowing that if I come as myself, you may not accept me. Whereas if I came as somebody else, you might accept me, but that's not me. That doesn't count. But it's hard for us sometimes, you know? Like I know this woman who She loved her mother, but her mother hated her.

[62:52]

Her mother was blonde and she had a whole bunch of blonde kids and one dark-haired kid. And the dark-haired kid looked just like her abusive husband. So after they split, all that was left of the husband was this dark-haired kid, who she really... always felt repulsed by it, because she reminded him of this cruel husband. So she never would let the girl come near her. And the girl always wanted to be with her mother, you know, and very loving feelings towards her mother, but could never get near. And then when her mother was old, she couldn't tell who was who anymore. And she let her daughter come near her because she didn't know who her daughter was. So she still wasn't letting her come near her as her, but she did get to be near her. But she didn't pretend to be somebody else and say, well, you know who it is that's here?

[63:55]

It's the one daughter that you have trouble with. She didn't pretend, you know. But in fact, that's the best she could do. But what's really healing is when you can come knowing that who you are will be difficult for the other person to accept and still come lovingly and honestly. Who is next? I think Liz, yes? I'm having a feeling that the place You're having trouble what? Feeling that the place that I'm in and the dragon are two different things. Because the place I'm in kind of feels like... The place, yeah, the place can be the dragon.

[64:57]

Yeah. It's the place... The place where you meet the dragon is almost the same as the dragon. It's the place where the mending can occur. with the other. So if you want to call the other a bear or a cat and call the healing place the dragon, that's fine. Being in the place where the healing can happen, being the way that the healing can happen. So to discriminate between the place and the dragon isn't necessary. There was somebody else there before. Yes, Rani. I wonder how can we realize that the great death is happening, or is happening, or is it happening like time and movement, and then we can't get time.

[66:01]

He said to me, I was great, hard-natured, complicated, and I found it in the closet on the next bed. I felt very comfortable. You felt what? You felt the mending? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You don't know if the mending will go away?

[67:12]

Love its current state of being a newborn mending? Well, they're both there, you know. The moon face is that our perception, we perceive each other. You may perceive me as over there. you may still see me as over there, as separate from you. Your mind may still create that sense of externality of the world. And some external things you may want to be very close to.

[68:34]

But then oftentimes when we get close to them, You know, these things we like, we tend to possess them, and that causes certain problems. Other external things we want to get away from. What we need to do is go to the place where we meet what we like without grabbing it, and where we meet what we're afraid of without grabbing it. and we will realize we're not separate from what we are attracted to and we're not separate from what we're repulsed by. Then we act always in intimacy with what we like and don't like.

[69:39]

We love what we like, and we love what we don't like. Doesn't mean we don't like or dislike, it just means that no matter whether we like or not, we practice love, which means we don't grasp anything in our mind. And giving up grasping gives the great death. It's permanent. And it was going on before you joined it, and after you joined it. The great death is a characteristic of the way we, in terms of our clinging, our clinging is always dying. That's always going on. There is the manifestation of clinging, but it also doesn't last. We think it does, But it doesn't. When you understand that, you understand that the clinging has ended.

[70:47]

That you're born from non-attachment. And then you're able to interact with all beings, as you always have been. But now you understand. So you're not afraid. As long as we're clinging, we're anxious. When we let go of the clinging, that's the great dead. That's also meeting the dragon. Now, is it possible to let go a little? It seems like some people feel like it's possible to let go a little. But anyway, when you really let go, it is permanent. However, you may still have many habits based on clinging, which still have a life. So you keep acting like you used to act even after you no longer see things the way you used to see them.

[71:52]

But you still have these habits. So you spend many years of maybe humility or embarrassment that you're acting like somebody who still really believes in her perceptions that other people are not her, even though you don't feel that way anymore. I don't know who's next, but you had your hand raised. Right. So Buddha said, Buddha didn't say life is suffering, he just said that it is true that suffering appears, he said that, which is often translated into life is suffering. But it's really, there's a style of life which is suffering, and the style of life is suffering is when you're separate from the dragon. As long as you're separate from the dragon, you're anxious.

[72:55]

But when you meet the dragon and give up the sense of separation from others, then life is not suffering. Then life is peaceful and happy and, you know, alive. So there's two possibilities. One is happiness and one is misery. Those are two possibilities. If there's attachment, then if you believe there's something out there that's not you, you can't help but attach to it. So that's the world where suffering appears. If you don't believe things are separate from yourself, you don't have to attach to them. Matter of fact, you can't. You keep reaching for people and grabbing yourself. Also, sometimes you try to grab yourself and you get somebody else. I had a question about being for another.

[74:02]

My girlfriend was here visiting me from Eastern Europe, and it kind of depends on me because I'm providing this place for her, but at the same time, she has this habit of, I guess, not wanting to uniquely, when something's not working, not looking at me and saying, I don't like this. She's much preferable to someone who's looking away and not talking to you. And I got so frustrated with this that yesterday I walked out of the apartment and went away. And I figured when I came back I'd have to talk to her again, but it didn't work. So it's like, I just haven't experienced the frustration of trying to get this other person to come to me. I was hoping you'd say something to get me unstuck. All I did was make you really mad. Well, that's sort of what Judy brought up.

[75:15]

You're ready to meet, and she's not. So, for you, she's the dragon who you don't want to work with in the way she's manifesting. You don't want to meet this person who doesn't want to meet you. Well, let's see, that's asking for too much. You're asking for too much. Or, you know... I'll take it back to your asking for too much. It's okay to have an idea of what it would look like, but you're asking for too much that she would look like your idea. Okay. So actually, the way she's working with you, the way she's appearing in your life, that's the way, that's the person that's there to meet. That's what it looks like. That's what the truth looks like, is the way she looks that you don't think is right.

[76:18]

Right. She's basically not talking to you. Yeah, so the person is not talking to you and won't relate to you the way you call relating. That's the way she's relating to you, but you don't see it that way. Pardon? You sure are. We're all in this little apartment with this person. who we are having trouble meeting. Yeah, that's the moon-faced Buddha. Is there any exercise I can try? One exercise is to give up control. Don't try to control. Don't try to get her to be the person you think would be good for her to be. Wish yourself well, very well.

[77:25]

Wish her very well. And in that well-wishing environment, let go of attaching to your idea of how she should be. Or rejecting it. Rejecting the way she is, or attaching to the way she should be. Let go of that. And realize that however she appears, This is the Buddha's truth. No matter how she appears, this is Buddha's truth. And it's not out there. She's not out there. You think, this is not Buddha's truth, this is a mistake, Buddha's truth has slipped, And somehow my girlfriend is now this un-Buddhist truth here. And also she's over there. So yes, what you think, fine.

[78:28]

I don't tell you not to think that way. What you do is you try to let go of control and tell yourself this is Buddha's truth and it's not out there. Now does that mean that that's the end of the story? No. If Buddha's truth is coming to you as a truck, good to get out of the way of the truck. Because trucks can hurt you. So she comes running at you, you know, and she's screaming at you and so on. Okay, if she starts running away from you and not screaming, that's Buddhist truth in that form. It doesn't mean you like it or dislike it. It doesn't mean you don't respond. It just means you're working with Buddhist truth, which means you say, Thank you. Thank you. Here's Buddhist truth. Thank you. Thank you. You can be wrestling with someone and say thank you as they try to throw you on the ground. Doesn't mean you don't like take into account gravity and bones and stuff like that.

[79:38]

You just say thank you. Thank you for this opportunity to like turn to the side and take care of my body and take care of yours. rather than, no thank you, this is not what's supposed to be happening, and I'm going to get it to go this way instead. Should I tell her that? Well, I think it's more, you know, when people go home to visit their parents or something, Don't tell them about Buddhism. Show it to them. So don't tell her about it. Don't tell her about it. Practice it. Don't say, I'm going to not see you as Buddhist truth. Look at it. Relate to her as Buddhist truth. She may not know what you're doing, but she'll be happy. Because you'll be saying thank you to her for her withdrawal. Rather than trying to get her to be somebody different.

[80:40]

She'll feel your respect. She'll appreciate that you give her space to be who she is. If you give it a big special name, that may distract her from actually seeing what you're actually doing. Namely, you're appreciating her now. A concrete practice? In your heart, wish yourself well. In your heart, wish her well. Okay? Wish her very well, wish yourself very well. In your heart, tell yourself that this is the Buddhist truth manifesting in your face right now. This is something to get intimate with. And you have to get intimate with somebody who's turning away from you. You can be intimate with somebody who's turning away from you. Haven't you ever seen that dance? It's called the turn away.

[81:42]

Your partner turns away from you, and you turn away from your partner. It's another dance. I don't know. There's a whole bunch of hands there. Yes? What's your name? Effie? And I want to do it in a positive way. I want to do something. I want to hold it in a way that's suggesting that man should live in this realm of God. And my heart, I have to... and hearing and feeling people out, seeing those people lying down and seeing children at this point, not having that thought.

[82:54]

So I thought that was an actual concern, not having this, just having not having, not being there. And I'm writing my book, testing it. So I have a, you know, what do you call it, a thing I say about this kind of thing, which is hard for people to understand, okay? When the Dharma comes to you, you can say, I'll say it softly, but you can say it loudly. No. Say, no way. You can say that.

[83:56]

You can say, no way. You see somebody cutting down a tree. Maybe you feel. Dharma comes. This is dharma called this person cutting down a tree. And you may feel like, no. You may feel like, don't do that. You may feel like saying, stop. You may feel like saying, knock it off. You may feel like saying, that's stupid. Okay? You can respond to the truth that way and still be loving. Loving to what? Loving to everything. And out of love you can say, stop that. But if you're saying stop that, out of control, then you're not saying thank you to what you said stop that to. When you really wholeheartedly say stop that, you're saying thank you for the opportunity to say stop that.

[85:06]

Thank you for doing this thing which I'm saying stop to. I'm not trying to control. I'm telling you how it is for me to see you doing that. Which is actually what I have to give to you is what I feel about what you're doing right now. I can also walk over and take the ax out of your hand. But not, this is hard, but not to take the ax out of your hand to control the ax. Because maybe I'll never get to you. Or maybe I won't get a hold of the axe. Or maybe you'll get another axe. Or maybe you'll hire another company. I take a hold of the axe to show you who I am. Not to manipulate. Not to influence. But to give you the gift of what I am. And I love myself and love you.

[86:11]

And give you me who loves me and loves you. And I'm there to meet you, not to control you. I'm there to cut through the sense that I'm separate from my brother by telling my brother, brother, stop it. But the brother may not stop it. But that's not why you're saying it. You're saying it because you need to say stop it. And he sees someone saying, stop it. Who's saying that? Is it someone who's trying to control him? No. Is it someone who loves him? Yes. Somebody who's not trying to control me and who does love me is saying, stop it. Buddha is not trying to control us. Buddha knows that if Buddha could control us, then Buddha would. And Buddha would just tune us all into Buddha Channel and that'd be it.

[87:14]

But Buddha can't control us. Buddha cannot control us. Buddha is not in control of the universe. But Buddha understands that. Buddha, however, loves the whole universe. And Buddha goes up to the universe and says, good, not good. Buddha says, don't kill. But Buddha doesn't say that to control people to not kill. Buddha says, I love you, and the person who loves you tells you don't kill. Then you hear, oh, the person who loves me says don't kill. Oh, that's interesting. Well, I would like to do what this person who loves me says. And then if I kill, I feel bad about it. And if I feel bad about it, I'll stop. But not because Buddha controlled me, but because Buddha loved me. And if Buddha loves me and Buddha doesn't want me to kill, gradually, I don't want to kill. And I stop. If you hate him, then the person who hates him is telling him to stop. The person who's trying to manipulate him is telling him to kind of stop. So... Obviously the crazy people want me to stop, so I probably should continue.

[88:18]

But if someone who loves me and isn't trying to control me and is honestly showing me who she is with her whole heart and doing nothing but actually giving herself to me as who she is, this is something to consider. This love can convert anybody. It's love that converts people who hate. Buddha didn't go around being mean to people. He went on and loved everybody, and they couldn't withstand the love, and they all melted into Buddhas. He loved them. But he also said sometimes, you know, you're really off track there, kid. This is like, no, no, that's off. Stop that. He did say that. He got stern with some people. And he spoke sternly about people, but he didn't do it to cause disunity or discourage people. He did it to encourage people to be loving.

[89:25]

Love can take a stern form, can take the form of a strong shout. But the strong shout is not manipulative. It's just a strong shout. It's just, don't kill. That's it. If you pull back from that, it's because you don't love who you're talking to, and you'd rather control them than show them love. And you won't be successful. After you control them, they'll just say, hmm, well, she's gone now, let's do it. That's what I have to say. It's a strange teaching, but I really mean it. Yes? I have a really confusing question.

[90:13]

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