Another theme here is... What would you like? Another issue here is the issue of the idiot or the fool. And... So part of what is at issue here is to make a space here in this class to be a fool or an idiot, to approach what's happening as though ignorant of certain habits that you have about how to think or how to understand things. So...

[01:02]

I remember last week, Maya said that she didn't, I said she said something like she didn't have the slightest comprehension of what was going on, and some other people said, thank you for saying that. And so there's something subtle here about what is a creative or a healthy way of not having the slightest comprehension, or not, you know. In other words, anything, all your familiar ways of comprehending or apprehending knowledge may not be apropos here. Can you find a new way to relate to what's happening? And can you allow yourself and feel allowed to live in this space here with this material and with what's happening to you and your daily life which is kind of innocent, ignorant, foolish, idiot, somewhere around there.

[02:07]

That's part of what's going on here, which the verse alludes to. Okay. So back to the main case. Well, maybe let's go back to the verse, I mean the introduction. Bodhidharma's nine years is called wall-gazing. The name of the case is Ludzu faces the wall. Faces the wall, the Japanese way of saying that is mempeki. Mem means face. And peki means the wall, face wall. So one way to call it is the practice of bodhidharma, the practice of the Zen school is sometimes called menpeki, called facing the wall or just facing wall.

[03:25]

And then it says, in the introduction it says that Bodhidharma's nine years is called wall gazing. Different. It's mem guan, excuse me, peki guan, wall observing. So the name of the case is Ludzu faces the wall, and Bodhidharma's nine years of practice is called wall gazing. It's called wall gazing, but also called mempeki. Mempeki or pekikan, you could say. OK, see the difference? Facing the wall or wall gazing. So facing the wall or wall gazing, one way, the first way you understand it, of course, is you're facing the wall. or you're looking at the wall. So basically, you know, for all practical purposes, in the Zen school, it does not mean that you're facing the wall or that you're looking at the wall or you're contemplating the wall.

[04:45]

It does not mean that. Wall contemplation or wall gazing means that you do the gazing that the wall does. Or you do the contemplation of a wall the way a wall does contemplation. At least you work towards that. In other words, you become a radical idiot. But not by denying the fact that you also have the ability to look at walls. You do. So this harks back to case 21. in that there's a busy one. When you're meditating, there's one who's looking at the wall. All right? That's case 21. So, case 21, the guy's sweeping the ground and his friend comes up and says, you're too busy. In other words, if you were sitting facing the wall, someone could come up to you and say, you're too busy.

[05:49]

In other words, you're looking at the wall. or you're looking at the floor. Okay? That's the same as saying you're too busy, or just you're busy. And we're not saying in Zen, which some people think, that we're not saying also that you shouldn't be seeing the wall over there, that your mind which sees objects should be turned off. Some people think that. I don't agree with that. I don't think we're telling you, turn off the mind that sees the wall. But rather, when you're looking at the wall, when you're seeing objects, your mind is busy. But you should know that there's somebody sitting there who's not looking at the wall, who's not looking at the wall. There's somebody who's sitting there like a wall, who's looking at the wall like a wall looks at the wall.

[06:50]

Namely, you're not looking at the wall. You're gazing, you're meditating like a wall meditates. That person is also there, or that way of being is also present there simultaneously with this busy one who's looking at walls. So, wall gazing means, of course, that you're an ordinary person who sees walls, but also you're developing and recognizing and becoming intimate with the one who's not. looking at the wall. In other words, the one who is the wall gazing. Okay? So here too, we're referred now to the practice of wall gazing, of sitting and trying to figure out what it means to look at the wall without the wall being an object. And without rejecting the ordinary human mind which has the wall as an object. This is the practice that is being alluded to and discussed and commented on here. Yes?

[07:52]

Just saying that made me think of it in this way, recognizing the separateness of this is looking, this is the person looking, this is the wall, and also recognizing the not-separateness of there's no separation. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Recognizing that you're your habit and your ancient habit, not so ancient actually, but somewhat ancient habit, is to separate, is to feel separation between awareness and the wall. A more ancient way is for there not to be separation. So the mind, so the aspect, so there is the mind and the mind has sort of like two two views in it. One view is the mind sees objects and is agitated.

[08:59]

Another point of view is the mind does not see objects and is calm. The mind is naturally calm when it doesn't see any objects. But the other point of view that can happen in the mind is that the mind sees objects and is disturbed. Now, sometimes we talk about this as two levels of mind, the busy level and the unbusy level. The busy level where you see objects and you're disturbed, and the unbusy level where you don't see objects and you're not disturbed, you're not busy. Okay? But then the guy raises his broom and says, which level is this? In other words, there are two different levels, yes, but they're always simultaneous. You can't separate them. So it's really just two different points of view that can happen in the mind. Seeing objects, not seeing objects. So when you're walking around in daily life, you see objects.

[10:03]

You see people, trees, tea, breakfast. While you're doing that, recognize the one who's not doing that. Okay, so here we're zeroing in on the same issue and calling it wall gazing. Now they say, Shang Guan's three bows divulges the natural potential. You don't need to know any history here. What does that mean to you? Some monk does three bows. How does this divulge? What is the natural potential that's divulged when a monk does three bows or one?

[11:08]

Buddha Dharmasanga is divulged? That's right. Body, speech, and mind is divulged, extending the arm. What is meant by natural potential? Another translation, by the way, is heavenly activity. this three bowels of the monk is a natural outflowing or is an outflowing of heavenly activity. Heavenly activity, natural activity, the activity of the cosmos. Actually, that's kind of interesting, because my first take on it was that it was natural potential that has been distinguished from function, potential distinguished from function.

[12:14]

But it's also the activity that seems to make it a little difficult. Yeah. Anyway, it's an outflowing, or it's an outflowing of an activity, of a natural activity, or it's a divulging of something potential. Maybe a heavenly activity is an expression of the Absolute. It's a potential. Heavenly is an expression of the absolute? Yes. Well, it's interesting because, excuse me, but bringing up my name, my name, Ten Shin, Ten is heavenly and Shin means truth.

[13:15]

So if you translate it literally, it sounds like heavenly truth. But what it means, actually, is something that's quite related to this case. It means a kind of naiveness or childlikeness So, for example, if you ask somebody, what is this? They say, it's glasses. That's Tenshin. That's like childlike answer. What's this? My hand. What day is it? Monday. Almost a little bit naive. And very matter of fact, So when I got that name, Suzuki Roshi said, Tenshin means Reb is Reb. And people will have a problem with that. But there's no other way.

[14:25]

There's a kind of stupidity in being just yourself that way, you know. What is un-naive answer to this question? Pardon? What is un-naive answer? Un-naive? Ask me. Ask me a question. What? What am I holding in my hand? It's a reflection of your question. That's more sophisticated, isn't it? How can you sweep away the tracks and obliterate the traces? Why would you want to? But anyway. How can you sweep away the tracks and obliterate the traces?

[15:35]

What tracks and traces might we be talking about here? Tracks and traces of enlightenment, that's right. What else? Anything else? What? What? Of life. Mm-hmm. Anything else? Karma and kindrances. Karma and kindrances, uh-huh. Something a little closer to the bone of what I said this case is about. The activity. Activity. What else? The actions of the teachers beforehand. The actions of the teachers beforehand. Naming. Naming. The bows. Huh? The bows. The bows. I don't understand that answer. What do you mean? Well, it's the activity. Three bows themselves. Well, if, in the sense that Craig said, if those three bows then become some activity of an ancestor that you're mimicking or something.

[16:42]

Yes? What about the traces of objects? What? Of objects. Yeah, the traces of objects, or the traces of ways you think you, the traces of a way to relate to objects. which is like naming. Again, you can't avoid naming things, otherwise you can't know them. You can't know them consciously without naming them or having a concept. But how can you use these, how can you go around naming these things without, you know, and wipe away the traces of your naming? Call people, you know, whatever you want to call them, and then wipe away the trace of that name. Call them good or bad. Which you will. Even if you don't open your mouth, you will. You call them male or female. You will. But how do you wipe away the trace of that naming? How do you wipe away the trace of the word you use to approach the thing you're relating to?

[17:44]

That's the question. That's what we have to figure out how to do. What? That's a good question. Thanks. Does it have to do with the fool thinking you can do that? Pardon? Does it have to do with the fool thinking you can do that? Well, that's one kind of foolishness, but it's even more foolish to not even... The kind of foolishness we're talking about is... Well, we're talking about all the different kinds of foolishness, okay? But we're talking about a fool who's such a fool, such an idiot, they can't even think of how to do it. So they don't even have to wipe away any traces because they just, they can't imagine how you would even approach anything. Dumber than a fool. Dumber than a fool. But we have to be all kinds of fools to, you know, we have to scout out all territories of fool around this radical fool. We have to be willing to be all kinds of second-rate fools or overblown fools. We have to try out everything until we find this pure fool in the forest of fools.

[18:53]

Yes? What struck me was you're in a moment, purely. Yes. There is no history. Yes. So what's happened in the past is gone. Right. Right. Yeah, that's what we're talking about. How we can become fluent with this present where history doesn't reach. Simultaneously, then there's plenty of history all around. And now we have people commenting on this practice. Whenever Lodzu saw a monk coming, oh, this is great, he would immediately face the wall. But here he is, turning around and imitating Bodhidharma whenever a monk comes. Totally, you know, enacting history, right? A total fake, copying the ancestry. Is that what he's doing? Does it mean that he would actually turn around and face the wall, or just that he did that in his mind?

[19:59]

That whenever he saw a monk coming, he would immediately become wall and not see the monk as an object? If you do it in your mind, if you don't see people as an object, you can do strange things like copy ancestors and, you know, really be silly. I think it must be so, that he really did it, that he really thought that way, that he made his mind into a wall. He did not see the monk coming as an object. He did not see the monk coming as someone other than himself. He must be that way, otherwise this tradition is hypocrisy. That's fine.

[21:05]

That's called respecting others. When you see such a person coming, you feel really good, you get goosebumps. The hair stands up in the back of your neck if you have any. then you immediately recognize a comrade. So that's what he did, they say. And then, oh, he also did it, excuse me, I missed one word. He would immediately face the wall. Now, one meaning of immediately is he would do it quickly. The other meaning of immediacy is there would be no medium he would use to do this. He would face the wall without a medium. In other words, he wouldn't have turned his body. That's another meaning of immediacy. He would turn his body without using anything to perform that.

[22:11]

He could do it without, in other words, without using anything to do that. In other words, what he already was, he could use to do that. So this kind of practice, another characteristic of this practice is there's no delay in it. You don't decide to do it and then do it. In the deciding of doing it, it's done. Are you comfortable on the floor, Marjorie? Really? If you want, there's a space over here if you want to sit on a softer surface. By the way, two people have joined our class. Three. Marjorie. Marjorie. Martha. Martha. And Lynn. Lynn. And Christina. Christina. And one person left, Arlo.

[23:14]

So he would immediately face the wall. Now, Nanchuan, the great Nanchuan, the guy who held the cat up in case nine, We've got problems with him still. Hearing about this, he said, I usually tell them to realize mastery before the empty eon, to understand before Buddhas appear in the world. I still haven't found one or a half. Ludzu that way will go on till the year of the ass. Yeah, so Stuart's reading it in a complementary way. Does he sometimes tell him something different?

[24:41]

Pardon? Does he sometimes tell him something different? This is I usually tell him. Oh, oh, nonchalant. Yeah, he said some other stuff too. Okay, now should we read the commentary? Do you want to walk through the commentary? Do you want to do something more with the case before we read the commentary? What? I think he's monks. He's monks and friends. Oh, so empty eon. Empty eon means kind of like, well, before time. So he recommends that monks realize mastery before the beginning of time, and that they understand before Buddhas appear in the world.

[26:02]

It's slightly different instruction, in a way. It sounds different than Ludzu's facing wall-gazing. It's like, you know, realize the way before wall-gazing, maybe, or before you go to the meditation hall, realize the way, or before you think about going to the meditation hall, realize the way. Now, Buddhas appear in the world because people think that they have to be somebody else, they have to be special in order to be happy, that they have to give some power or some religion to be happy. So then Buddhas appear so that people realize they don't need that. Buddhas appear so that people can see Buddha and then realize, oh, I can be a human being, because that's what Buddha found out. Buddha... found out what it was to be a human being, was released from that human situation, and saw that other people were also just buying that way.

[27:16]

So then Buddhas appear in the world so that we can see that we can just be ourselves. And then so we see that teaching, so then we try that practice. Nantuan says, even before those people came and demonstrated that you could be yourself, understand that. In other words, he's more radical. And again, appealing to another kind of stupidity, incredible. You have to be incredibly dumb to receive that instruction. Anyway, Buddhas have appeared in the world, so now we have to go back to before they came that non-Chuan suggests. It's exactly that sort of thing, yes. Yeah. However, the way he did it, somehow, As they say, Luzhu, unable to end matters, brought on the examination of this group of old guys.

[28:43]

So there's something about the way Luzhu practices that makes Nanchuan say this, even though, in a sense, he must be doing the same thing. There isn't really a difference of opinion here, and yet the way he does it provokes Non-Chuan to say this and then say that he carries on this way till the year of the ass. So there's some... Even though they're doing the same thing, why is he prompting this kind of comment? What is it about this way that prompts this comment? Why doesn't he end matters? You see, that's another issue here, ladies and gentlemen. Ludzu does not end matters. He presents a radical, immediately realized, so immediately that it's realized before you were born, practice, and yet he doesn't bring things to an end, which is also alluded to in the verse about that it continuously seems to exist.

[30:02]

that he doesn't put things to an end so then people make comments on him. And again, you might say, well, if you want to avoid criticism or look smart, bring things to an end. But he didn't do it that way. We might remember the case we just did of mental action. It's a little bit of compassion. Exactly. Does anyone understand ? Does his students understand? Yeah. I mean, I'm just trying to . Well, he's, uh... You know, there's something about his way that we have to, you know, historically speaking, we do have an issue here because he did have this disciple, this great disciple, Zhao Zhou, right?

[31:09]

He had this great disciple and that lineage died out. So there is some unique quality of this non-Chuanian way that although everyone you know, thinks of him and his disciple, you know, he's a major figure in the history of Zen, there's something about them that's hard to find. They're very hard to find, these people of this type. So that is actually an issue that, in one sense, he wasn't just kidding when he said he couldn't find anybody like this. That's what it looks like. Yeah. Yeah, maybe that's why it's good to be a little bit more foolish and leave yourself vulnerable to other people coming in and, what do you call it?

[32:12]

Looting. Looting your practice. Because you're not wrapping it up in a nice little package. There's also another reading where I haven't found one. What's the other reading? Not finding anything. Not finding anything, yeah. But it... Yeah, okay. Okay. Let's see if there's commentary that makes any... It's going to be a mess, this commentary. Chan Master Bao Yun of Mount Luzi, that's our guy here in Jur province, used to face the wall whenever he saw a monk coming. After Bodhidharma sat for nine years, there was no one to reenact this law or this way.

[33:19]

For the time being, They have had everyone ask about Buddhas and patriarchs, about transcendence and accommodation. Everybody realizes a little pain and itch. What does that mean to you? Everybody realizes a little itch. Work. A little work? Nan Chuan, who was a peer of Lu Tzu, Seeing people's needle and awl unmoving, he immediately gives a penetrating comment from the side. I usually tell them to realize mastery before the empty aeon, to understand before Buddhas appear in the world, but still I haven't found even one or a half man. His meaning is like letting out a thread.

[34:23]

In reality, he has transmitted the essence of the teaching in behalf of the other's attendant. Who's attendant? Luther's attendant? Hmm? Is Luther's attendant the person who loses his teaching? So is non-shawn trying... Telling the people who are . Yes? . Okay.

[35:31]

He also said Luther that way will go on until the year that has. His meaning seems to be blaming Luther for being too strict. Do you see how he's strict? and that reminds me of this guy, what's his name? Zui Yang. Zui Yang, who, you know, will get up in the morning and look in the mirror and say, Master. And you would say, yes. are you awake? And he would say, yes. To himself, he would ask himself, are you awake? And he would say to himself, yes. For all day long, don't let anybody fool you. I won't. So in some sense, you could say Newton's being strict because everybody he meets, he doesn't see as an object.

[36:41]

In some sense, that would mess up the transference. You know what I mean? No? Doesn't matter. Another sense of being strict is to see this kind of literally facing the wall. Bodhidharma did that, right? Bodhidharma faced the wall. People came to see him. He wouldn't turn around. Now he realized that maybe Bodhidharma wasn't facing the wall when people came to him. He would turn around when he came. This is a new understanding. But this is anyway, Bodhidharma was very strict. All he would do is practice. He wouldn't tell anybody. He would just practice. Yeah, it looks like that's how he was teaching. That's how he was teaching, definitely. But he was a very strict teacher. So someone may say that non-trauma is criticizing him for being so strict.

[37:49]

so strict, that this form of teaching was so strict no one could approach it. But in reality, he's praising his direct imparting right there. I've told this story many times. We had a ceremony one time. And we got new robes, new Buddhist robes, and they were put on in a different way. They were tied in a different way. So after we received the robes, we said to Zizip, who gave them to us, this wasn't our ordination, this was after we were ordained. And then we got these new robes, the priest did. And we said, how do you put this robe on? And he walked off. And then we turned to Kadagiri Roshi and said, well, how do you put this robe on? And Kadagiri Roshi tried to start explaining to us how to put the robe on. His English was, you know, it still wasn't very good, so he was kind of like trying to explain to us how to do it.

[38:54]

And then one of us noticed that Siddhartha Roshi was over in the corner putting the robe on. In a sense, that's very strict. You don't explain, you just do it. And Bodhidharma was that way, too. He wouldn't explain it. when the emperor didn't understand. The emperor didn't see anything to Bodhidharma either. So Bodhidharma didn't try to do anything. He just went off and sat, very strict. But at the same time, even though strict in a way, it directly points without any messing around. So is it strict or is it just more direct? Now there, I'll let you sit with that one for a while. Some people may seem to be strict, but they may just be being very direct. Just not wasting any time, just... And in a sense, in that way, a lot of our friends are very strict, because they don't waste any time.

[40:04]

They just be themselves. Not very many of our friends are that way all the time, but a lot of our friends are that way some of the time, that they really are themselves, and they're being very strict with us, and we really have a hard time with them being that way. So he's not drawing them or pointing to them? That's right. He's pointing with his whole body. So, you know, So when he's being that strict, is that the whole problem? No, not really. Well, except that he's there in the world, so you can see his body, which is quite helpful. What do you find difficult with the Amazon?

[41:07]

What do I find difficult with my friends when they're doing that? Just one. What does one find? Well, I don't want to embarrass anybody or talk about somebody who's not in the room. But there are people I know who people have trouble with. And the thing they have trouble with is the way they are. They're just, you know, they're a mass of twisted karma. And it's just right out there. And it's not a pretty sight. And it's not going to get prettier either. And they even, and part of the twist is they're not even subtle with it. And they're insecure and not confident about it either. And that's what they are. And there's something very strict about that. And very obnoxious. Yes? Is that wall gazing? Yes. That's wall gazing. There's somebody there who's busy, too, who is, you know, trying to be different, and that person's there, too, but you don't mind that person.

[42:17]

You sort of feel sorry for that person. You sort of have, you have sympathy for the person who would like to be different from this creep. The problem you have with this is the person's actually the way they are. So you're not really happy at all with that person being the way they are, but something inside, some memory of your own. Yeah, you have a problem with your own practice, right. Which is also pointed out here. I'll just telegraph up to it. That has to do with this business about, you know, carving on the jewel or leaving it alone in the abyss. So when you see somebody else, if you're messing with the jewel, you have a hard time letting them be the way they are. But if you can just leave in your own... If you can leave the jewel in the abyss, it's actually quite attractive.

[43:18]

But it's hard not to do something to this jewel. Does that make... That was stretching a little bit. We'll get there. Hmm? What? Oh, yeah. It's impossible not to etch on the jewel, right. But there's another one that's in a sense there's another jewel that's just sitting in the abyss untouched at the same time. Depending on which point of view you take on it. thought was looking at something, and if you like it, it's attractive, you get along with it, whatever, too.

[44:25]

When you don't, you propose your ideas on it. Like in the plaintiff's, there's flavor. It's not edgy. You're not making it anyway. Just sharing the experience of it. Just draw. Does that seem... Is that what you said? Yeah. So, anyway, he thinks... But in reality, he's praising... Nanchuan's praising Luzhu for directly imparting right there. Haven't you heard it said that even if you explain thoroughly, it can't compare with personally arriving once?

[45:26]

Does that sentence make sense? Okay. That is why on spiritual mountains It is like drawing the moon. At Sauchie, it is like pointing at the moon. Now they can't compare to Ludzik in the Crystal Palace, in the hall of far-reaching cold, meeting with bare breast. some allusions here. Tsaoshi is the mountain of the sixth ancestor of Zen. A spiritual mountain? I don't know. A spiritual mountain might be Guishan. Lingyu. Lingyu means spiritual mountain. No. I don't know what... That's not right. Guishan doesn't mean spiritual mountain.

[47:06]

So who's spiritual mountain? I'm not sure. I'm not sure of the allusion. But anyway... Today, Lu Zu is incomparable. Far-reaching cold. Freezing out all associations. Okay, now Bao Fu saw Nan Xuan and Liuzhou's open seam, and asked Chongqing, in Liuzhou's case, where was he being discreet that he was spoken of by Nanchuan in such a way? What does he mean by where was he being discreet?

[48:09]

How do you understand that discreet there? Or was he hidden? I say, why does Bao Fu say the words being discreet? I mean, is the commentator here. Wan Song. That's what I said, too. You say that, too? Yeah. The commentator, Jesse. Unless you know how to discern spring and autumn on the buddhist branches, it is difficult to pose this question. Do you know how to discern spring from autumn on the budless branches? Of course. How?

[49:10]

Like this. Where's the budless branch? There's no budless branch. There isn't? What are you looking at? Okay. Chan Ching replied, retreating into oneself, conceding to others. Not one in a thousand does. Retreating into oneself and conceding to others. This is a new dimension being brought up here, right?

[50:16]

What? Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Is it a way of describing what Lutz is doing? Yeah. Well, it is. I guess it is, yeah. Emperor didn't get it, but... Okay. What does he mean by conceding to others? It seems like in the case, you know, they say, when he saw... Whenever what you two saw at once come here, the media, in the face of the wall, that maybe he wasn't facing the wall necessarily, but in the service of others, when others would appear, then he would face the wall.

[51:20]

I think these are the service books. Not argue. What? Not argue. Not argue with others? Yeah. Uh-huh. But, um, what's his business about retreating into the self again? Retreating, retreating, hmm? Some time ago, for some reason or other, I associated the following comments on Proust with this phrase here.

[52:21]

There's Walter Benjamin talking about Proust. The point at which weakness and genius coincide in Proust, weakness and genius coincide in Proust, the intellectual renunciation, the tested skepticism with which he approached things. After the self-satisfied inwardness of romanticism, Proust came along determined not to give the least credence to the internal sirens.

[53:25]

Hmm? Pardon? No, he's here. Are you going to sing? Noisier. Well, it's fire sirens, but there's other kinds. Oh, the women's sirens. The sirens beckoning you inwardly, okay? So the romantics, he's talking about the romantic movement, right? The romantic movement of the 19th century, the self-satisfied inwardness of the romantics, right? retreating into the self, okay? Proust comes along and is determined not to, what is it, not to give the least credence to this inward self-satisfaction or this self-satisfied inwardness, not to give any credence to the inner sirens, the

[54:33]

the things inside that are beckoning to you, that are attracting you, not to give any credence to them, okay? That's one. And two, how about this, concede to others, okay? Concede to others. When we hear concede to others, we probably first of all think that there's a certain way to concede, you know, that concede means I don't know what. A whole bunch of stuff we bring in on how you would concede. But then he says, so after this self-satisfied inwardness, Proust comes along and does not give the least credence to the sirens of... the internal sirens, okay? Proust approaches experience without the slightest metaphysical interest. without the slightest penchant for construction, without the slightest tendency to console.

[55:40]

Are you awake? Yes, I am. All day long, don't let anybody fool you. I won't. Should I go on or you want to talk about that? Does that make sense as an expression of conceding to others? Well, you could say it that way, but you could also see that... Well, Luzhu, I think, leaves an open seam in the sense of he doesn't close things.

[56:55]

He doesn't end things. He leaves room for you to enter and comment. And even Nanchuan does Baofu Sa. So Luzhu's way leaves an opening for you, or an opening for Nanchuan. Nanchuan comes in. Now even Baofu sees an opening even in what Nanchang says, and says this thing about him being discreet. And he asked Chongqing, and Chongqing says, retreating into oneself, conceding to others, not one in a thousand does. People receding to themselves retreating to themselves, but true, true, true conceding to others without the slightest, you know, consoling, without the slightest construction, without the slightest, what, metaphysical interest.

[58:08]

Even seeing an other person is a kind of metaphysical interest. We don't usually talk that way, but you're all metaphysicians to the extent that you think somebody else is there. High-speed metaphysicians. Can we help do it? Huh? Can we help do it? No. But you can admit it. And not promoting yourself or anything to be a metaphysician, but you are. And if you can admit you're a metaphysician, you can be unloaded of that baggage of being a metaphysician. But most people don't think of themselves as metaphysicians, right? That sounds like somebody else. Would you think you're... Does anybody here think they're not a metaphysician? Sometimes I'm not. How is it then?

[59:15]

It's good. In the instance, say, well, I think it's true. I would say it's probably true of everybody. Like, if you fall out of bed and you hit the floor before you wake up, in that instance, you're not exactly a metaphysicist because there's no real separation between you and the experience. I mean, It appears that way afterwards anyway. Well... So in other words... That's a metaphor for not being a metaphysician. That's what you just said there. But when you actually... I'm saying when you hit the floor, then maybe at that second you aren't. But even before you fall out of bed, you weren't. Equally. Yeah. Yeah. But the story you just told would be a metaphor, could be a metaphor for that person who wasn't a metaphysician before you fell out of bed.

[60:24]

It's a metaphor. It's like hitting the floor before you think about it being the floor. It's like a metaphor for the way you always are. Part of you, you know, is having experiences before you think about it. All the time. So the story you just made up is like a metaphor for that, the way you usually are. There's always somebody there who's having experiences before you know it or before you think about it. There's always that person. So you made up this story, which is a little story or metaphor just like the way you usually are. But actually when you're falling out of bed, all the way falling out of the bed, you're having objective experiences all the way through mid-air, knowing things right along the way as you fall. I think so. Yeah, I think so, too. Even if you're still dreaming, right? You're doing this in your dreams, too. Okay. Are you doing it in your dream right now?

[61:30]

If you were nodding your head, I thought you agreed with me. Uh... Okay, I'm going to just keep going for a little while here. That's okay. I don't know if that's a good idea. I don't know if that's a good idea. Maybe it is. I want to tell you something, though. A little piece of research that I did. And that is that when it talks about after the verse... when it talks about, in the classic, the power of the way. Did you find that thing in the comment on the verse? That's the Tao Te Ching.

[62:31]

Okay? And it says in the chapter on the undying valley spirits, it says that the gate of the mysterious cow is the root of heaven and earth. Continuously it seems to exist. Well, I looked that up and so it is, I think it's chapter six. And here's what it says there. One translation is, the valley spirit never dies. It is named the mysterious female instead of cow. Well, cows are females. All right. Another way to say it's named the mysterious female. And the doorway to the mysterious female is the base from which heaven and earth sprang.

[63:37]

It is there within us all the while. In other words, it continually seems to exist. Draw upon it as you will. It never runs dry. I think that might be helpful to you when you start studying the verse. Did you get that? So the gate of the mysterious female is the root of heaven and earth. Continually it seems to exist. Or it is there within us all the while. Draw upon it as you will. It never runs dry.

[64:44]

What? Chapter 6, I think, unless, you know... Okay, now, I told you that, so we can go back to this thing. So, how are you doing? Ready for some more of this? You want to talk about anything? Are you practicing wall-gazing? Talk about it. You talked about someone who experiences things before we're over. Pardon? You talked about the falling off the bed thing. Yes. You talked about someone, some part of us, or someone who experiences things before we're over. Yeah. Is there someone? Yeah, I said that, but that's just a conceit.

[65:45]

I don't really mean that to someone. Because actually at that level of looking at things, there isn't like, what do you call it, some sense of a limited self. But I'm getting a little bit, you know, what do you call it, flamboyant. Talking about people and stuff. In a realm where everything's interconnected. Isn't it the unbusy one? Yeah, that's the unbusy one. And also when I say before we're aware of it, well, you know, before the realm where there's a self, there's awareness, a direct awareness which doesn't know things. Is that the realm that Lu Tzu lives in?

[66:45]

Or is? No, Lu Tzu lives in the realm where, you know, which one is this? He straddles the threshold between the realm of knowing and the realm prior to knowing things as objects. In other words, when he sees objects, he also understands that they're not objects. when his mind is disturbed by seeing something outside himself he also doesn't lose track of and completely is completely settled in the mind which doesn't have objects and is not disturbed he is both those worlds and so are all that's what we really are we're actually those two realms always together non-dually that's what Lutz is teaching that's his practice And that's a regular Zen practice. That's what Zazen is, a practice. Even though Luzu is not in our lineage, as far as I can tell, he's very close to us in his practice.

[67:55]

I'm still having trouble construing Changchun's answer. Well, you mean retreating into oneself, conceding to others? Does it remind you of the verse? Well, it hasn't yet. It makes me think of... I'll just tell you this for you to think about. It makes me think of all these lines. Continuously seeming to exist before any sign. Unbending like an idiot. The path is lofty. Jade, when a pattern is carved, loses its purity, and a pearl in an abyss attracts of itself.

[69:04]

A thoroughly clear air burnishes the sweltering autumn pure. A bit of cloud at leisure divides the sky and waters afar. Conceding to others could seem to me to be both, conceding to others means both that the fresh air burnishes the sweltering autumn, and that a cloud, a bit of cloud, at leisure divides sky and waters afar. I can see that, in other words, conceding to others can clear up the swelteringness of the objective world.

[70:31]

If you can concede to others with the proper attunement, this stifling heat of these autumn days is smoothed off. But also, conceding with others means that you attune to the divisive nature of the human mind. You attune to both of those. You get release from the oppression of the way the mind works and the suffocation and the oppressiveness of it by the clear autumn air of proper attunement with the way things are at the same time you concede to the divisive nature of the mind which creates divisions and duality you concede to the sky which has one little cloud up there which can divide the sky and the ocean so you really that's

[71:43]

That's part of my feeling for that verse. What do you think? This is how this verse, Chongqing's answer and this verse are ways maybe to help you bring wall-gazing into your daily life. and to accord from both directions with the events of the daily life. On one side you clear it up. On the other side you jump in the mud. If you don't jump in the mud, you can't clear it up. If you don't clear it up, you can't enjoy the fact of what clouds do in the sky. This practice of the proper attunement to your state and others, your adaptation to the clarifying potential of being in attunement and

[73:01]

The willingness to be totally in the world, that's like a wall. That's what walls can do. Walls have no problems with that. For us to be like that makes possible this wonderful balancing. Involvement with clarity. And clarity which cancels the unfortunate aspects that are involved with it. But this clarity will not come if we're withholding our involvement at all from our human nature, from our dualistic thinking. I can hardly wait to sit tomorrow. Well, of course we can start it now, but tomorrow we're going to have a party to celebrate this ridiculous practice.

[74:07]

And even the people who aren't in the koan class are going to come. I thank you for tolerating your minds. They are our intentions.

[74:31]

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