Well, that kind of self, that subconscious might be that you're starting to notice that you're getting jazzed up. That might be like just simply awareness that you're getting a little too excited about this inspiring situation. Which, you know, is understandable. And if you pay attention, if you try not to be excited, that also will tire you out. So if you notice you're getting excited, if it's the kind of excitement that's going to drain you, you'll probably notice afterwards a dip. And as your body and mind accumulate this information, the body may say, well, let's just not get quite as excited this time. Without trying to control, it just naturally says, I don't want to do it quite that much anymore. I'd rather be able to do this in a steady way. Because if you get too excited, even in a positive direction, in your meetings, eventually you're going to have to get away from these people because they're wiping, not they are, but the way you're responding is wiping you out.

[01:06]

So then sometimes, even if you're working with people you really want to be with, you say, I've got to get away from these people I really want to be with because the way I respond to them drains me. But if you can catch it before it gets total burnout and watch it, you probably will evolve in a direction that's more sustainable, steadier, and then you don't have to abandon your best friends because you like them too much. Okay? You're welcome. You can stay. Please come up. Are you saying that checking and becoming self-conscious are the same? I'm not necessarily saying checking and self-conscious are the same, but there might be a relationship.

[02:08]

For example, just being aware of what's going on doesn't have to be checking. Checking means like checking to see, is it going all right? Is it going the way it should be going? You know, am I being a good nurse? Am I being a good spouse? Am I being a good parent? Checking, you know, rather than looking to see what's happening. I was thinking of checking as being less specific, like am I male or female? Am I in a human body? Am I an ocean? Am I a sky? Yes. You were thinking of checking me like that? Yeah. That question could be a question without being checking. You know, for me to say, am I a falcon is different from me checking on how I'm doing to see if I'm okay. You know, checking my experience. Is this experience right? Am I doing what people want me to do? All that kind of checking.

[03:09]

Am I being, you know, in such a way that, you know, I'm okay with Because the kind of checking I was thinking about, I thought, gee, if you were checking, you could become psychotic. I mean, you would be able to function. What kind of checking were you talking about that you think you need to do? Like, am I in the ocean today? Am I awake? Am I going to roll into this room? You know, just not... Would that kind of checking make you feel psychotic? Well, I don't know whether it would make me feel psychotic, but I probably would be. You'd be psychotic if you asked... Am I a falcon? Do you think that would make you psychotic? Not personally, no, but I think that's how I would be viewed. Oh, that's how you'd be viewed? Yeah. Did you view me as psychotic when I asked that question? No. I think checking how you'd be viewed is not psychotic, right? It's normal neurosis.

[04:10]

Yeah. Most people are walking around, self-conscious, checking on themselves to see how they'd be viewed. How do I look? Do I look okay? Asking other people, asking myself, look in the mirror, check on yourself. But if you're looking to somehow, when I look to check on myself, I may not even notice myself. How about looking in the mirror and actually look at that thing without checking? How about me looking at you without checking you? I can look at you and check you, or I can look at you and just look at you. There's a difference. Like I'm checking, does she like me? Does she not like me? Is she approving of me, disapproving of me? Is she happy? I'm checking. Checking means checking like trying to control and adjust and protect myself, basically. I'm checking to protect myself. Does she think I'm psychotic? If she does, how would I be unpsychotic? yeah right right so rather than just like look imagine looking in a mirror and just look versus looking to check see the difference and so I didn't check when I brought up this thing about am I a falcon or am I a song I didn't check when I said that to see if you'd like that or maybe I did but I'm proposing I wouldn't have to

[05:36]

And I don't think I'm psychotic when I do that. To me it's like, it's wonderful that I would actually not know for sure what I am, that I'd be free, that I wouldn't be like saying, okay, you know, one, two, three, I'm a man, [...] I'm a man. You know, that's psychotic. Like all these, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man. Most neurotics, they can just do it once in a while. Check, am I still a man? Yes. But you're psychotic when you've got to check all the time, and then also check everybody else. Is that person on my side? Is that person on my side? Is that person on my side? This is like, when that becomes very solid, you're really in trouble. Make more sense? Great. You're welcome. Yes, please. Jordana?

[06:42]

Yes. And what's your name again? What's your name? I forgot your name. Tell me. What is it? Is it mine? Yeah. No, hers. Nancy. Nancy, okay. Nancy and Jordana? You'd like to risk being in the unknown with me for a while? Are you in it? Are you in the unknown? Are you in the unknown? Are you in the unknown? Huh? Hello? Are you checking back to the known? Are you checking to the known? You are? You want to stop that? You do? Have you stopped? No, you're continuing, right? She wants to check into the unknown, but you're having trouble, right?

[07:45]

I'm trying to avoid the ledges. You're trying to avoid the ledges? Yeah. Well, where's the ledge? Where is it? All the way down. It's all the way down. How close are you to the ledge? You're swinging back and forth? Are you close to the swinging? Is there a biting? I keep finding different ledges. You keep finding you're swinging on the little ledges? How to get some grounding. You keep finding some new grounding? Trying to swing down past it. Swing past the grounding?

[08:45]

Yeah. Swinging past the grounding? I don't think that's the unknown. The unknown would be to accept that you're trying to get some grounding. Okay? Are you accepting that? I see it. I recognize it. Had I could have composed myself, I recognize it and try to meet the fear of not being. There's some fear? Uh-huh. Are you close to it? You feel it right now? And you're not trying to avoid it? You're open to the fear? Okay. How does that feel, to be open to the fear? Does it feel good? And is there any fear of the unknown now? There is?

[09:47]

And you're close to that fear of the unknown? And you feel okay about being close to the fear of the unknown? Okay? Are you closer to the unknown? Are you closer to it? You don't know? Yes. Tell the truth. You don't know. You don't know about the unknown, huh? Huh? You don't know. Is that what you said? Okay. Could this be the unknown? Could this be the unknown? It could be, but you're not sure, right? Yeah. You don't know what's going on, do you? No. Is there any fear? You know about the fear, right? You know about the fear. Fear is something you can know. But the unknown you don't know about, right? Good work.

[10:49]

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So maybe that's enough for this morning and we can... sit a little bit before lunch, and this afternoon I will come back and we can, again, try to, like, ride the waves like this, okay? And you're all welcome to get your surfboards ready and come and ride the waves with all these supportive waves. All these beings will support you and buoy you up. I can't guarantee you won't get hurt, but I can guarantee you something, and that is, if you get hurt, I will be with you forever. I won't abandon you if you get hurt. I'm completely here to support you. There is some danger, but I think it'll be all right eventually. So,

[11:54]

Now you can sit and face yourself for a while. Let's do a little bit of walking meditation and then sit till lunch. An unsurpassed, penetrating, and perfect dharma is rarely met with even in a hundred thousand million kalpas. Having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept, I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. The ultimate way, the final way is based on mind.

[13:09]

The reality of mind is based on non-abiding. The reality of mind is based on non-abiding. The essence of non-abiding is radiant spiritual knowledge. And the testing ground or the place of realization of radiant spiritual knowledge is interacting with beings, riding the waves on the ocean of all life.

[14:11]

This mind, the reality of mind which is non-abiding, the non-abiding reality of mind is right under our nose all day long. when the Diamond Scripture suggests that a bodhisattva, a being who aspires to be a Buddha in order to help all beings, that such a being should enliven this mind which abides nowhere. I like enliven rather than, sometimes they say produce, but it's already there. It's more a matter of bringing it to life, this non-abiding mind, this mind which doesn't dwell on anything. And so training the attention to look for any dwelling that's going on.

[15:38]

And then when you see the dwelling, or the grasping, whatever, the abiding in things, then we continue the training to face this phenomena of grasping, of the grasping mind, of the abiding mind, just to face it. And in facing the clinging, in facing the mind which is depending and dwelling on things, in an upright way. The non-dwelling is realized If you already see where there's holding in the mind, where there's grasping things in the mind, if this is already apparent, then congratulations.

[17:06]

And then you can express what you see, tell about what you see, and you can also express how you relate to this. phenomena in your mind. If you want to externalize it and talk about some being or thing in the world that you feel grasping for or you feel dwelling in, then you can, in a sense, confess that, express that, and then you can express how you relate to this clinging that you discover towards something external. Becoming more and more aware of how, of what you're clinging to inwardly and outwardly, and how you relate to that clinging, you get closer and closer to the dropping off of the clinging. The road to non-abiding entails for most of us a number of experiences of abiding.

[18:20]

The road to not clinging anything to anything entails noticing quite a few things we're clinging to. The road to not picking and choosing, the road to not checking what's happening, and so on, the road to freedom involves noticing how we're caught. The road to perfect wisdom is paved by realizations of delusion. The road to selflessness is paved by realizations of selfishness. Does that make sense? That it would be like that? I think so too. And it seems to be that way. And people who have noticed these things, have noticed these kinds of

[19:23]

obstacles, these kinds of afflictions, or these things which are sources of our obstacles and afflictions, they sometimes wonder if it's okay. They get sometimes, well, challenged by that, right? It's very challenging. And these challenges are then something which you can meet. and become more skillful in handling these challenges, and as you become more skillful handling these challenges, you get closer to having them not be challenges anymore. Matter of fact, they're just the opportunity for the realization of your, you know, I hate to say it, Buddha nature. And when I talked about the necessity of placing yourself deeply at risk, because only in a situation of danger can there be communication and can there be enlightenment.

[20:43]

Enlightenment cannot happen by staying away from danger. Enlightenment can't happen by staying away from anything. So it's not that you have to go someplace to find some dangerous situation. You simply have to face whatever comes. What comes is dangerous enough. And if you are able to face whatever comes and meet whatever comes with no mind, with no grasping, with no checking, then you will be given bigger challenges. Your reward will be, people will see how well you're doing and they'll say,

[21:48]

This looks like a job for so-and-so. If you're in denial about your difficulties, if you're in denial about your clinging, people don't like search you out necessarily and say, please face this thing you're denying. They think, this person's in denial. They want to be in denial. Leave them alone. Obviously, they've got enough problems. They can't even face them. Look it. So if you don't face the challenges you've got, you might not get any more. So it sounds like a good idea not to face them, right? But if you do face them, I'd say that's the path to Buddhahood. Now, if you do face them, now you're going to look differently than when you were denying them, because now you're going to be like actually having a problem. And now people will see, oh, she's not denying them anymore, but she's having a hard time.

[22:54]

She's barely able to cope with these challenges. So then, too, they won't like bringing more problems. They'll say, she can barely cope with this. She's got enough on her plate. Leave her alone. Don't dump more problems on her now. Can't you see how hard she's struggling? So, you know, if you're struggling with your problems, which means you're holding on to them, or trying to get away from them, or try to, you know, negotiate a peace treaty, or trying to get somebody else to take them, or get, you know, anyway, if any kind of fussing with your problems, you're going to be having a hard time. If you're directly fussing with them, you're going to be having a hard time, and people will see that, and they'll probably basically let you just have a hard time. Most people will. A lot of people will anyway. Not everybody. Like your kids won't. And if you really had a good teacher, your teacher wouldn't either.

[23:56]

They would say, oh, you got some problems? Well, here, take some more. You're fighting your problems? You're fighting your problems? Here, have some more. So one technique is if you're resisting your problems, then somebody gives you more and more until you stop resisting. But anyway, a lot of people will leave you alone, except for people who really love you. But if you get to a point where you're not fighting them anymore... And you're relaxed with them. You know, you've got problems up to your eyeballs and you're kind of like, okay, what's next? Let's have, you know, whatever. Then people say, now let's bring some more. So then you can have some more. And then if you say thank you, they'll give you more. And if you say that's enough, thank you, they say, well, you did so well with the last one. I think you probably could handle this. They'll give you more. So your reward is to give more and more. And this is how you grow. Does that make sense? It's kind of like that story of Rumpelstiltskin, right?

[24:57]

When she spun a room full of straw into gold, so then the reward is a room bigger, a bigger room full of straw. That's the way it goes. The rich get richer. rain falls on forests and skips over the desert. Did you know that? Rain clouds pass right over the desert and then when they get to the green forest they drop their rain. They feel, oh, this is our home. Because they know if they fall in the desert they just evaporate. So they go where it'll sink in. So you might think, well, I'd rather be a desert where nothing will happen.

[26:07]

But you're not a desert, so why don't you just be a forest where all the beings will come and sit on you? But again, don't select. Don't select. Don't say, okay, there's a dangerous situation. I'm going to go over there into that dangerous situation. Don't go over there to the dangerous situation. Face the one that's coming to you right now, which is like, what's happening? Nothing dangerous is happening. This is like completely safe. I want to go someplace where it's dangerous. Well, you're already in danger because you think it's safe. If you would go over there where you think it's dangerous, you're much safer than to be here where you think it's safe. Because at least over there you know the truth, namely you're in danger. Here you're really in trouble because you think you're safe. Stay here. This is what's happening. You're here. So don't go selecting your difficulties. Which ones do you handle? The ones in your face.

[27:10]

Isn't that, like, convenient? See, the Buddhist teaching is so convenient. It's like, deal with what's in your face. Deal with what's under your nose. Of all things. Really? This? I could work on what's happening right now. I don't have to wait for two weeks until I get into some really challenging situation. Or, you know, I don't have to wait two weeks until I get into some really unchallenging situation, like get me out where everybody's nice and nobody challenges me. So a lot of people think that's where you're going to practice. And now, from what I'm hearing now, what I'm telling you now, you might think, no, I've got to go to someplace which is really hard. No. It's always actually what's coming to you. The Buddha is what's coming to you. The name of the Buddha is the one that's coming to you. the thus come one, the tagata, what's coming to you right now, that's the Buddhist teaching. The Buddhist teaching is not what's going to come to you later or what went before.

[28:16]

It's what's coming right now. And the way it really is coming to you is coming to you in a non-abiding mode. If you try to grip the Buddhist teaching, you won't see it. If you don't grab it, it'll reveal itself to you. You will see. So in fact, here we are. This is where we're practicing now. This is what's being offered to us now. You know, like, did you need me to tell you that? No, of course not. So I'm telling you things that you don't need me to tell you so I can stop telling you stuff now for a while. And if you want to, you can tell me some stuff. And you don't have to think of something, you know, super dangerous to tell me or super risky.

[29:16]

Just tell me what you have to tell me. Don't you have something to tell me? Do you have something to tell me? Would you please come and tell me? Is your name still Jason? Huh? Wow. How do you stop checking, but you have to check to make sure you're not checking? How do you stop checking? Yeah, if I'm checking, then I notice I'm checking, but... First of all, not checking does not involve checking to see that you're not checking. Let Buddha check to see if you're not checking. You don't have to check to see you're not checking. So definitely forget that, okay? Did you forget it? No. So you didn't forget it. In other words, you're still checking. So you can check all you want. Okay? So you just keep... If you can, keep confessing that you're checking. Just notice you're checking and confess it.

[30:18]

Notice you're checking and confess it. That's the path to becoming free of checking. Okay. And then if you ever got free of checking, you wouldn't have to check that you got free of checking. And if you're not free of checking, you're going to keep checking to see if you're... That's the path to becoming free of checking. Okay. And then if you ever got free of checking, you wouldn't have to check that you got free of checking. And if you're not free of checking, you're going to keep checking to see if you're free of checking. Or you're just going to be checking. But the more you can stand to be this person that happens to be happening, just happens to be you, the more you can face this person and meet this person and just meet him without wishing he was different and just let him be a checker. the more he's going to be able to move to the place where the checking drops away. Because this person cannot make himself not be the way he is.

[31:22]

But he can be the way he is, and if there's awareness of how he is, there can be dropping away of how he is. So all you gotta do is just be willing to experience the way you are. And if you're checking, you don't try to control yourself out of checking. And if you're not checking, you don't try to control yourself back into checking. You just let go of the person that you are. You accept the person you are and let go of the person you are. And if you accept the person you are and cling to the person you are, you accept that you're the person who's clinging to who you are. And that brings you close to letting go. of the person you are, the person you're appearing to be. How's it going now? Is it going good? Is there some letting go? It was. It was? Until I checked, right?

[32:25]

It was until you checked. Good. Are you in the beam now, do you think? What's that? I don't know. Is there anything else you want to tell me now? No. No, you did it? You told me what you had to tell me? Yes. Thank you. Anybody else want to tell me something? Yes. Louise. Hi. Hi, Granny. Well, I'm here to face my fear uprightly And my fear is irrational, but it's still there. My heart's still pounding. And so, here I am.

[33:28]

So silly. Why is that, that you have that much fear about something that's so irrational? So you've got fear, and you've got a judgment now, that it's silly? Yeah. Okay, now we've got fear and silly. Fear and judgment. So are you in the middle of the fear and the judgment? Huh? Right in the middle? Right. Good. Wait a second. She said still there. I'm checking. Yeah, she's checking. So we got fear, judgment, and checking. And the checking was it's still there. As a result of the checking, she said it's still there. Now, when she says still there, that makes me think. It didn't make me, but anyway, I thought, I wonder if she was thinking that if she got in the middle of the fear and the judgment, that it wouldn't be there anymore. Did you think that was going to happen? Well, I'd like that. So now we have a desire, too. So now she's sitting in the middle of fear, judgment, desire, and checking, plus smiling and sticking her tongue out.

[34:47]

And laughing. You're in the middle of all that. Now, are you in the middle of all that with the intention to get rid of all that? Is that your desire? Yeah. So that's a desire. If you're in the middle of that, you don't grasp that desire. That desire can arise. I wish this part would go away and that part would stay. Or actually, I wish all that would go away and this other stuff would come. That's part of what's circling around you, that desire. If you sit in the middle of that and don't grasp the fear, don't grasp the judgment like silly fear, don't grasp the checking, don't grasp the desire that some of this would go away or all of it would go away, you just sit in. That's being upright. And if that's the way you are, that's non-abiding. That's the reality of your mind right there. That's where the spiritual light shines. So you got all this stuff happening around you, and if it wasn't, you wouldn't be able to develop much skill in being upright.

[35:56]

I mean, if nothing was happening, you could be like falling over, and you wouldn't even know it. But with this stuff happening, you can tell more easily if you're leaning towards any of it. So fortunately, you have a lot of stuff around you, so you can tell if you're leaning for or against any of that stuff. And if you're not grasping it, then that you've accomplished the task. The task has been accomplished called non-abiding. The mind, you found the non-abiding mind. In the midst of all this stuff, there's a non-abiding mind. And you realize it when you find the thing that's not trying to get rid of this stuff or hold on to it. And also there's a little enlightenment over here. Ooh. Ooh. Darlene, Darlene, Darlene. There's a delusion over here. Don't lean. Delusion and enlightenment. You're like, you know, totally cool, right? These don't tempt you, do they? Now, that's a non-abiding mind that doesn't care about this stuff.

[37:00]

Kind of like, it's almost like, hi, see you later. Anyone else want to tell us something? Yes. I feel like from what you were saying before about when you meet these things with open or with no mind, was that what it means? Meet whatever comes with no mind. I feel like I need some sort of technique. And I don't know how to do that. Okay, so here's an example, okay? He feels like he needs some technique, okay? That's what's coming to him, all right? Here he is, comes into the room, he hears me say, meet whatever comes with no mind.

[38:03]

And then this thing arises, this thing came to him, I feel like I need a technique. That's something that came to you, all right? Didn't it? Yes. Well, what do you think? Did it come or not? Are you lying to me? No, I don't. You thought of it. It came to your mind. Your mind gave you... A mind produced this thought. I need a technique. I'm not just going to sit here and practice meeting everything with no mind, with no technique. I don't know how to do that. Right, but meaning things with no mind means you don't have a technique. It isn't like, okay, what's your name? Ken. So it isn't like, oh, here comes Ken. Okay, I'm going to meet Ken. But I got my little technique here. And with eight of my technique, I can meet Ken. And what's my technique? My technique is open it up and tells me what to do. Okay, now Ken's here, so say, hi, Ken. How are you today, Ken? What kind of work do you do, Ken?

[39:05]

Ken. Are you happy? Are you enjoying the retreat, Ken? This is my little technique that tells me how to deal with this person. Right? So, there's a confusion between what comes up. You're not supposed to grasp that and use what comes up as a way to meet what comes up. Or when something comes up, then look for something else to come up, cope with what comes up. It means to cope with what's coming up with nothing, with not using anything, like empty-handed. Like my hands are empty, so guess what I can do with these hands? What can I do with these empty hands? Slap me, I guess. I could slap you. What else could I do? You could walk on them. I could walk on them. What else could I do? Well, cover your eyes. I could cover my eyes. What else could I do? Put your fingers in your ear. I could put my fingers in my ears. What else could I do?

[40:05]

We could go on and on. Yes, we could go on and on, but there's one thing that's really, well, I could clap, but I could also touch you, and you could put your hands in mine. It's kind of scary. It's kind of scary, yeah. What's scary about it? Well, I don't know. It's scary. It's scary? Were those other things scary? They weren't, were they? They were a little scary? Well, this is another one. This is... My hands are empty, so I can... So you can put your hands in mine if you wanted to. They're there for you to... Do you want me to do that, or are you just... It's an invitation, but I really don't want you to. Like, you know, I won't be disappointed if you don't. I'll do it. So anyway, they're available for that because, you know, they're open. And they're also available for you not to... But anyway, they're available. Your mind is available. Because you don't have something, when you meet me, you don't have this way of meeting me in your mind.

[41:08]

But one of the things that arises in your mind by habit is, if I'm going to meet that guy, I would like a technique to meet him. I would like to know, tell me, what's the way to go meet the guy? Tell me the way. So just don't grasp that thought and come up here without finding the way. So you did. And you told me what you were grasping, and then you were grasping some way to deal with this meeting. And I'm saying, that's not no mind. So how's it going now? About the same. You're still looking for a way to deal with this? I'd like to have a way, yeah. Again, there's a desire, I'd like to have a way. Okay? And can you see that you're kind of grasping that desire to have that way? Sure, yeah. Yeah. So if you just keep facing that desire to have a way, you're getting close, then you'll see what that's like to grasp the desire to have a way. Okay?

[42:09]

And you'll see what that feels like. How does it feel? Trying to get away. From that thing that we were talking about? How does it feel to try to find, you're trying to get a way to deal with me, right? Trying to find a way to meet things, right? Yeah. You want to find that, right? How does it feel to want to find that? Grasping. It's kind of grasping. How does it feel to be grasping that way? Gooey. It's kind of gooey, kind of. And how is that, do you like that gooey? Not really. Not really, right. Yeah, so if you keep seeing how you really don't like this gooey way of meeting people, like, okay, here comes somebody, and then it's all this goo. Like, you know, I'm meeting you, and then I'm trying to figure out, how do I meet you, and it's all gooey, and I wonder if, you know, and I haven't found anything yet. Oh, yeah, I did find something. I'll try this, and that didn't really work so well. Maybe it did. I don't know. I've got to judge. It's a gooey mess, right? The more you see that, the more your body's going to say, Oh, let's just forget the whole thing.

[43:11]

Let's just meet without knowing how to do it. And then you're going to try that and you're going to find out what that's like. And I'll tell you what it's like beforehand. It's like I don't know what it's like. I'm not going to tell you because I don't know. I'm not holding back anything. I don't know. I don't know what it's like. But it is characterized by, you know, fearlessness. But it doesn't mean there's no fear. It just means the fear is not bothering you anymore. Anything can be happening, but somehow nothing bothers you because it's all not sticky anymore because you're like Mr. Free. Thank you, Ken. That was good, Ken. That was bad, Ken. That was good, Ken. Sandra? Sandra? Wait a second, you are next. Please come.

[44:16]

What's your name again? John. Is your name John too? Yeah. Any other Johns? Yeah. Is that it on Johns? Okay. Got three? Yeah. And your name is John? Yeah. I didn't try to remember, but I did. Do you want to tell me something? Yes. Do you want them to hear? Sure. Okay, John's going to tell you something. Here it comes. Are you ready? See if you can deal with this with no mind. Watch. Here it comes. I have 25 years under my belt of avoiding sitting meditation. If you have 25 years of avoiding sitting meditation, you just fail right there. And... I do a lot of reading and thinking, and when I'm awake, when I'm up and walking around, I see the grasping, and I'm learning to let go of not getting the things I think I want.

[45:28]

I'm learning to deal with those. But the flip side, which is exactly the same, is my avoidance. I'm not dealing with my avoidance of pain. You feel like you're avoiding pain? I feel, yes. I feel that I'm avoiding pain. Okay, so what do we do when we notice we're trying to avoid pain? What's the practice for that? It would be to notice that we're avoiding it. Noticing that you're avoiding it is really good. That's very close to not avoiding it. So you would notice that you're avoiding it. So you're very close to not avoiding it. So if you just keep noticing how you're avoiding the pain, you're going to slip closer and closer to that pain if you just keep noticing how you're avoiding it. Because avoiding it is right next to facing it. Avoiding it kind of hurts.

[46:29]

Avoiding it hurts. Facing it. And facing it doesn't hurt, but facing it, you feel the pain. So in both cases you're hurt. It's just that avoiding it, you'll hurt forever. As long as you avoid, you'll continue to hurt, plus you're not only hurt, but you'll hurt. The hurt will multiply because it'll get fear and anxiety laminated on top of it, plus all kinds of cruelties will blossom out of that, which you'll feel bad about. But if you come close to the pain and accept the pain, patiently settle into it you will find the source of the pain and then you settle into the source of the pain which is this clinging and as you settle into the source of it that will drop and when that drops you enter into non-abiding and you enter into non-abiding and you get to see that the entire world is just one mind everybody in the whole universe is just one mind you get to see that and then there's no more pain for you there's just joy of being able to jump right back in the world without any fear.

[47:36]

So, the fact that you're noticing that you're avoiding the pain is really good. And just keep noticing that you're avoiding and pretty soon, if you can consistently notice you're avoiding, pretty soon you're going to be not avoiding anymore. You want to ask one other thing? Sure. Will I sit? and I begin to face the pain, one thing that happens is I go to sleep. When you sit and you start facing the pain, then you start going to sleep? It seems I go unconscious. Well, that's one of the kinds, yeah, that's quite common. A lot of people do that. Just keep doing that. Just keep doing what? Sitting there and going to sleep until I wake up. Please, yeah, just keep going to sleep until you wake up. Yes. That would be good. That would really be good. Because that's what's going to happen. But you can be totally with that and up for that and embrace and sustain that.

[48:44]

And then you're practicing the Buddha mind. So you're doing great. Congratulations. 25 years was not a waste of time. It brought you to this point. You're welcome. Sandra, or is it Sandy? Sandra? I want to ask a question that has two sides, kind of three sides. Three-sided question? Yeah. Okay. It's related to... Her question about what's the point of facing your risk if you don't feel good about it, and you said the point is losing the fear. What about with people that are not afraid of the risk? It has also to do a little bit with the question the other lady asked you. I mean, some people don't mind the risk.

[49:48]

They are attracted to the risk instead of being afraid of it. So is there any point of facing the risk if you are not afraid of it since you don't have any fear to lose? Is there any point of facing risk if you're not afraid of it? Is there any point of it? Yes. Yes. Because, again, facing risk does not mean to go do something risky. Right. It means facing what's happening right now. Right. So if you're facing what's happening right now, even though it might be risky, number one, you become free of fear. Number two, you get to see what's happening. Okay? And seeing what's happening, you get to not only become free of fear, but also... become realized non-abiding. And by realizing non-abiding, you also understand how you're related to other beings and you can now respond in a beneficial and joyful way. I feel that when you face a risk that you're not afraid of, you're actually abiding to it because you're enjoying facing it.

[50:50]

You like facing that risk. And you're searching for that pleasure of facing it. No, but that's what I'm saying. If you're searching for the risk rather than just facing whatever's coming, then you're leaning into it. You're not just, you're grasping the risk then. You're not just facing it. And also, if you're facing the risk, then also that's just going to last for a flash. You get another one, not the one you like to have right now, not the one you're excited about. That one gets taken away. Wait a minute, I like that risk. That was much scarier than this one. You took away that monster. Now you gave me this nice little baby. I don't want this. Give me that monster back. No. So whatever the risk is, it will be taken away from you, and you'll be given a new one. And if you sort of like that old one, which is really exciting because it was so risky... So, I mean, I'm not criticizing people who go up and do the skydiving and stuff like that or do this. We have this thing in San Francisco recently called X-Sports, you know, where they do these really dangerous sports. It's okay, but those are like warm-ups to like ordinary life.

[51:54]

Well, I'm talking about the opposite. I'm not talking about extreme risk. I'm talking about we're talking in this room like people are afraid to come close to you. Right. Or some people are afraid when somebody asks them to dance, they are afraid to go dancing. Yes. They don't want to make a fool of themselves. Right. That's a risk they don't want to face. Well, that's a risk I like taking because I like dancing. That's fine. Yeah, that's fine. So is there any point of doing something that is risky? Because, I mean, I know there's a risk that I'm going to make a fool of myself or fall over or none of the stuff. I don't care because I'm more tired about doing it than afraid of doing it. I think it's okay to go do something like dance. It's fine, of course. But I'm just saying don't skip over the risks between here and the dance studio. That's all. If you want to go dancing, and part of what you like about it is you feel that the energy of facing that you're finding a situation where you can be aware you're at risk. I'm just saying, let's try to find the risk in ordinary situations too. Let's try to find the risk of walking to the dance studio.

[52:58]

Like, you know, the risk of getting into the car. Every time you get in the car, it's good to be aware this is very risky. You might die on this car. This might be the last car ride you'll ever have. You may never get to the dance studio. So I'm just saying, don't skip over the risks of ordinary meetings. So I think all meetings are basically... Risky. All communication is risky. So it's risky to come and talk to me, yes, but if you talk to any of these other people, it would be risky, too, if you actually got into communication. Language is risky. My question is, do you also grow when you face some risk you're not afraid of? Face a risk you're not afraid of? Is there any growing there, or is there probably the opposite of that? Well, because you're grasping it. If you face a risk that you're not afraid of and it's not challenging, you might not grow too much.

[54:02]

But if you face a risk and you are afraid, you probably grow. You become more fearless. Every time you face a fear, you become a little more fearless. But let's say you're not afraid. let's say like you're a dancer and you don't care anymore of what people think of you. You don't care if they think you're unskillful or whatever. You don't care. You got over that. Now you're just challenged by very difficult steps. And you're not even afraid of spraining your ankle anymore either. But you're still challenged by just how to do these things. And you grow. So challenges don't always have to be painful and frightening for you to grow. They can just be like You know, you can be sort of like up for the challenge, but still say, you're willing to try something. Like a game. Like a game, and you think you're going to fail. You have a good chance of failing. In other words, a lot of, well, like I heard this jazz guy saying, you know, talking with somebody about his art, you know, and he says, well, you get used to failing a lot in this way of practice, this way of music.

[55:09]

You fail a lot. But he seemed to be pretty relaxed about it. So you can grow even if you're not afraid and in pain. But if you're afraid and in pain and you avoid it, then you're avoiding the growth that will happen from facing those. But there's more than just those to face. There's infinite challenges. Sometimes the challenge is that things aren't difficult. That's sometimes what's hard for people. They become bored. Yeah. She said they become bored, but in a way, I think boredom is like a demon. It's like when you're doing something that's really difficult to face, like something really ordinary. You're not supposed to be paying attention to ordinary things. Ordinary things are the most important things to pay attention to, because they're the most numerous. and that's where the demon comes in to get you to stop because the demon doesn't want you to work on the most important things so it says this is like ordinary you don't have to pay attention to this forget this and go talk to that interesting person so ordinary things are really where it's at but it's okay to do something interesting once in a while especially if somebody asks you to like yourself Sandra would you please go do that interesting thing okay

[56:30]

If you want to, go ahead. Just don't skip over the ordinary. Again, the ordinary is where boredom comes in.

[56:37]

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