If I put these glasses on, I can see the people in the back, but I can't see the people in the front. I might summarize the discussions that we've been having during this retreat, during this retreat, which I hope has been a sashin. I hope the sashin has happened. I know we had a retreat, but I don't know if we had a sashin. I don't know if you accepted, if there was acceptance of the mind, if there was embracing and sustaining of the mind or not. I have heard and I believe what I've heard and that is that many people have really been, somebody said, cracking, working enthusiastically to

[01:16]

train the attention in such a way as to not be grasping signs so much, not be elaborating conceptually on experience so much, and training at this fairly consistently. And that's, to me, very encouraging that you're willing to give yourself to the practice of sesshin, the practice of receiving Buddha's compassion through every experience. Repaying Buddha's kindness by embracing and sustaining each moment of experience.

[02:29]

Repaying Buddha's kindness by embracing and sustaining each moment by being present with what is appearing and disappearing each moment. About 30 years ago, the founder of Zen Center, Suzuki Roshi, ordained Paul Disco and me on August 9th, 1970. I asked his wife just before the ceremony if there was some gift I could give to the teacher on this occasion of him giving me the gift of welcoming me and Paul into his tradition of priest training.

[03:42]

And you can probably guess what she said. the gift would be? Can you guess? You can't? Or maybe somebody else can. Can anybody else? Mary can't guess. You could, but you don't want to. I guess I could guess. Okay, go ahead and guess. Buddha mind. Given Buddha mind? Right, that's the answer. Any other guesses? Did I hear practice? Yeah, it starts with a P. Yeah, practice. She said, give him, give him, huh? Yeah, that. But she said practice. But practice, give him the practice of being present. Give him the practice. Give him the practice of Zazen. That's what he wants. That's the gift he wants back. So I've been trying to repay it for 30 years.

[04:45]

And she didn't say when I could stop So I don't know if I can ever stop repaying the kindness of the Buddha ancestors. So I'll just keep practicing embracing and sustaining each moment until after we all attain Buddhahood. And then maybe I can stop. So we've been training at this this week very well, very well. I think it's been very well. So that's what we've been working on is relinquishing, relinquishing every experience, giving up grasping after signs of our experience.

[05:49]

And calming down, beginning to calm down in this experience through non-grasping of the signs of the experience, calming down. And I don't know too much how much after this calming there has been seeing of the ultimate. But I just thought I might mention that that is a little summary of the course. The course is, actually, at the beginning we talked about the aspiration, what your aspiration is. And if your aspiration is sesshin, if your aspiration is to repay the kindness of the Buddha ancestors by practicing the Buddha ancestors' samadhi of sesshin,

[06:55]

then first is that aspiration, then we practice the samadhi. We practice training the attention into non-grasping, and through this training the mind calms, and through this calm we can come to see the ultimate truth. We also see the conventional truths along the way. We see the ultimate truth, This is sometimes called calming the mind and discerning the real. Discerning the real thing. And so we've been working at that. And I just thought I'd mention at this point that most of this work, a lot of this work, is what you might call intra-psychic. Within the psyche, training the mind,

[07:58]

and the body together. This is like what we call learning the backward step. Turning the light around, turning the light which is usually shined out onto things and on the signs and grasping them, turning the light around back and training the attention to turn around and shine back inwardly on the nature, on the non-grasping nature of awareness. Intra-psychic work. So one, two, three, or actually one, two, three, four. The aspiration, the withdrawal from grasping, the calming, and the discernment. Okay? But I also wanted to mention that the next step in practice is the interpersonal.

[09:06]

And the interpersonal can, of course, be woven into this intra-psychic all the way along. So you can go see the teacher and interpersonally discuss the intra-psychic practice of sashin. Report on how you're how you're working with your mind, how you're training the attention to turn around and give up grasping and calm down through non-grasping. But when this part of the course is complete, when you can actually discern what is real, then we strongly move to the interpersonal realm, not just with the teacher, not just with the instructor on the intra-psychic work, but with all beings.

[10:09]

So first we have interpersonal life and intra-psychic life. Then in Sashin we make a strong gesture of learning the backward step, withdrawing from grasping at objects, calming down and seeing. Once seeing the truth, we turn again back out to the world and give up the ultimate, let go of the ultimate. which you have seen. Let go of the ultimate truth which you have touched and been touched by. The root of the word attain is to touch. You touched it without even, without grasping. You don't grasp the ultimate truth, please. Mula Majama Kakarika's chapter 13, verse 8.

[11:18]

Do not grasp the ultimate truth. Just touch it. Just touch it. You can pat it. Be touched by it, but do not possess it. Let go of it. And join hands with all beings. Now that you understand, join hands with all beings." And along this line I thought I might mention that someone came to me and corrected me. Can you believe that? She said that she thought I misquoted that song yesterday. She said, not the part about the mess. She says, I know that you didn't mean that was part of the song. But she says, I think it's a kiss is still a kiss.

[12:20]

Not a kiss is just a kiss. So a kiss is still a kiss is, again, more heretical. When a kiss is just a kiss, it's not still a kiss. So now you really want it, don't you? Anyway, the original text says a kiss is still a kiss. A sigh. Ah, but it says a kiss is still a kiss. A sigh is just a sigh. Anyway, thank you for that update on the name. This is an interpsychic kind of thing, interpersonal kind of thing. And the other interpersonal thing is that part of the reason why I told you the story about Bhadrapala Bodhisattva, the one who touched the water and entered the way by touching the bathwater, is because there's a picture of him and his friends in the bathtub at that very moment out there by the bathroom.

[13:32]

So you can like see a picture of that. These were male monastic bodhisattvas, but you can imagine what it would be like if they were female, non-monastics, touching the water. So anyway, that's that picture. So this mind like a wall, this withdrawal, is a kind of withdrawal from grasping, this withdrawal from grasping is, you know, not the same as withdrawal from the demands of intimate relationships. It may seem like during Sashin like you're withdrawing from some of your intimate relationships because, you know, you said goodbye to some of your intimate relationships and came here

[14:35]

So it may seem like a kind of withdrawal, but this, if anything, is just a temporary withdrawal, but primarily it's a warm-up to enter more deeply into the intimacy of relationships. By withdrawing from grasping of other people and grasping at concepts of objects, we prepare ourselves to be released from this grasping, to calm down, to see who our friends really are, or to see, I should say, what our friends really are, to understand who our friends, how our friends really are, And then with this release and this encouragement to let go and enter more deeply into all the demands of intimate relating.

[15:45]

Clearing it up somewhat through this practice. Opening the way to Buddha's way of responding to all beings. So Sashin should hopefully, when you leave Sashin, You do not attach to sashin. You let go of the sashin and you are able to more fully enter into your relationships. And there's some difficulty in the transition sometimes because there might be a little clinging to whatever level of, you know, training you got into. You might feel like I just started to get trained and now I have to like

[16:48]

start grasping again? Maybe so. Now, if you finish the training, then you'd be ready to completely give up all grasping because you would have attained the thing which you most should not grasp, ultimate truth. So we should maybe have a security check as people leave Green Gulch, you know, at the gate up there to make sure nobody's holding on to ultimate truth when they leave. Now, if they bring ultimate truth with them, we'll let them come and then during the week, you know, force them to let go. And if anybody didn't bring it with them and now has found it, you should leave it here before you leave. You should throw it in that pond there. That pond's full of ultimate truth. It wouldn't mind some more. Drop it off. And actually somebody told me they did that.

[17:55]

They had some semi-ultimate truths that they found during Sashin and that they were holding on to them, but holding on them, they couldn't continue the training of their attention. So they just took their ultimate truths and put them in a pond for safekeeping, which you can retrieve them later. And then use them to exploit them for fame and profit. But otherwise, you know, just get rid of them so you can go back to training. Don't hold on to them. Not to mention holding on to other nice things. So in some sense, you know, maybe we should wait to do the interpsychic practice until we've realized ultimate truth and then let go of the ultimate truth and then join hands with all beings.

[19:09]

But I think that doesn't work because then we'd have to wait until everybody got there and then no one would see what it's like, no one would have any examples of what it's like. So I think, although I hope you continue to do your intra-psychic training of your attention to withdraw from grasping of signs and turn the attention towards the ungraspable, ungrasping nature of awareness, I think maybe it's time to, if you're ready, to start interacting interpersonally. And so some of you do that, of course, when you come to Doksan, but it's very important to do it in public sometimes. So there's two sides of practice, the interpsychic and the interpersonal.

[20:30]

We need both. And now it's interpersonal invitation time. Could you please talk about the fear that arises with the withdrawal of grasping?

[22:07]

The fear that arises with the withdrawal of grasping? I think it arises before the withdrawal. The fear that arises just before the withdrawal or during the withdrawal or after the withdrawal? before, during, after, with your all. Fear. So, I've heard about that. So, if you're used to grasping objects, what's like, if you grasp objects, then you get bound to, you're actually bound to them. And then if you think about letting go of what you're bound to, you maybe feel like, well, a lot of people feel like they will fall into a deep pit. They'll have nothing if they don't continue this grasping. I've heard about that.

[23:14]

And so you're used to, although it's painful to be grasping things because that grasping grasping to the signs of things, grasping to things as though they were out there independent of you, it's painful. You feel afflicted by that, but it's familiar and you know you're still alive. But what would happen? Would you still be able to live? Would you still be able to take care of your children and be a good parent or whatever, good spouse, good friend, if you let go. So you get afraid. Actually, before you even approach turning the attention away from and not contributing to this attachment before that, you're already anxious.

[24:21]

Because whatever is out there that you're grasping as out there, you're grasping it as out there, that's scaring you. I mean, not scaring you, it's you're anxious about it. Because, for example, that thing could turn against you any time. It could judge you negatively. you're already anxious. Now, if you imagine letting go, that's actually letting go. When you imagine letting go, if you imagine letting go rather than actually let go, if you imagine that, you're actually turning away from the actual situation, and then your anxiety moves to fear. But before you start imagining in such a way as to take yourself away from the anxiety you feel in this attachment, you're actually facing the anxiety you feel in this attachment

[25:48]

And then if you start thinking about doing something different from this, you're actually taking yourself away from your primary attachment and creating a secondary attachment. You're elaborating and moving farther away from your basic attachment. So the elaboration, you're getting more excited based on the basic excitement, the basic anxiety. Now if you actually let go, in the moment of letting go, although the affliction is not necessarily immediately ended, it's somewhat, a little bit freed up by just, for the moment anyway, withdrawing from the sign. So you have a moment of release. from that grasping and a moment of release from the habit of thinking that the thing's out there.

[26:49]

So I actually request, if anybody runs into any citations of people being afraid of the Shakyamuni Buddha, I'd like to hear about it. because I offhand cannot think of any particular examples where it says the monks were afraid of the Buddha. But I know that the monks are sometimes afraid of some other very compassionate teachers. The monks travel sometimes long distances to be with the teacher that they've heard is very compassionate. And they go to see the teacher and then they become afraid of the teacher because they think that this compassionate teacher will think that they're a bad student. So they meet the teacher.

[28:02]

They think the teacher is somebody other than them. And they grasp that and they become afflicted through their grasping of the kind teacher as out there. And as they withdraw their grasping of the teacher out there, they become unafraid, the anxiety drops away. But if you think about, well, what's the teacher going to say, what's the teacher going to do, and elaborate, then you get into fear on top of the anxiety. And if you're afraid, if you're anxious that the teacher may not approve of you, then you let go of your grasping onto concepts about how to behave well. And you think, well, then how would I possibly, then I don't have any chance at all of performing well. Then I'm really going to be in trouble. But that's part of what we need to do is like let go of grasping onto doing well with the teacher.

[29:11]

take that chance, not because then you will do well, but then you will feel what it's like to be unafflicted by being concerned. And people sometimes get confused between pleasing someone and pleasing someone to get someone's approval of you. It's possible to please someone and they don't approve of you at all when you please them. They think you're totally worthless and you please them and they continue to think you're totally worthless. Or they don't think you're worthless or good and you do something very nice to them and it pleases them and their opinion of you doesn't change at all. It's possible to do something to please someone without any motivation to get them to like you better by doing that.

[30:17]

So what a lot of people do is they feel tormented by trying to get the teacher to approve of them or like them. They feel tormented by that concern. So then they think, well, then I won't do anything to please the teacher because all my pleasing is to get the teacher to like me, so I'm not going to try to please the teacher. This is a big mistake. You should try to please everyone, but not to please everyone so that they'll like you, but to please everyone in a way that would encourage them to practice, to please them with the prospect of compassion, to please them with the prospect of being kind to other people, to please them with all kinds of wonderful things. to encourage them to live and care for all beings. This is very pleasing. And if they're depressed, to do something to please them.

[31:20]

If they're in health, to do something to soothe them, to please them, to help them be present with their pain, to give them some pleasure in the middle of their pain so that they can be present. This is pleasing. It's good. But if you do it so they'll like you better, then you're distracting yourself from the thing which you're supposed to be looking at and training yourself away from grasping. Anything else on the fear you want to hear about? Is that enough? It's enough for now? So, of course, if you do feel fear at the prospect, of course, if you do feel fear at the prospect of turning the light around and shining it back, the fear of turning the light around and shining it back and not being able to find anything,

[32:27]

like not be able to find the mind that's agitated. If you're that fear, just become intimate with that fear. In intimacy with that fear, the instruction of turning the light around might take over. In intimacy with that fear, you may be able to offer yourself to be turned around and withdraw from grasping. Does that seem possible? I've seen quite a few people conveyed very nicely by intimacy with fear, conveyed into a free movement of the mind away from clinging when they dare to be close to their fear. Of course, I've seen other examples of people who stay away from their fear, and the fear just gets bigger and bigger, and they get stiffer and stiffer.

[33:37]

So I devote a lot of my life to encouraging myself and others to carefully, gently, accept fear when it arises, to embrace and sustain the mind of fear. Would you like a cushion?

[34:45]

No? Okay. I'm afraid that Buddha will not stop the cat that eats the mouse. You're afraid that Buddha will not stop the cat that eats the mouse? Could you tell me more what you mean by that? I'm afraid to not demonize people who I see are hurting others. You're afraid to not demonize? Oh, you mean you think if you stop demonizing people who are hurting people that you just let them hurt people? that you don't think you can intervene unless you think the person's a demon? Is that what you mean? I would suggest you become intimate with that fear.

[35:51]

And if you become intimate with that fear, that will help, I think, will help you understand that, number one, without thinking that somebody's a demon, you can go up to them and get real close and say, would you please come over here for a second? I would like to talk to you about something. And they say, just a second, I was about to eat this mouse. You say, come here, I've got something that I think might be a little bit more interesting for you than eating mice. And they say, what? You say, well, trust me. And you get them away from the mouse, and then you say, EAT ME." AND THEY SAY, BUT YOU'RE TOO BIG. YOU SAY, WELL, BE MY FRIEND THEN. THEY SAY, OKAY. WHAT WAS I ABOUT TO EAT AGAIN? CHILDREN SOMETIMES ARE GOING TO HURT EACH OTHER AND YOU CAN SOMETIMES PROTECT THEM FROM EACH OTHER WITHOUT MAKING THEM INTO LITTLE DEMONS IN YOUR MIND.

[37:02]

So first of all, I think it is possible. Second of all, I would suggest that if you think it's a demon, that's going to make you more afraid to getting in there and interacting in a beneficial way. I think the demon side of it is going to make it harder for you to find your way to slip in there. So if you can become intimate with that fear, of this thing which you may or may not have already made into a demon because maybe even before it's a demon you're still a little afraid. So demonizing the person sometimes makes you less able to get into the situation in a way that you can interact with it in a way to protect beings. Martial arts are partly to help you be unafraid to interact in very high-energy, fast-moving situations because fear doesn't usually help you make the right move.

[38:07]

fear is sometimes a short-term, you know, adrenaline shot, like coffee. But for consistent 24-hour protection of beings, adrenaline's not a good, you know, thing to be injecting into yourself, because then you're going to have these energy dips when you're not going to be able to do your job. So having a calm mind that doesn't depend on fear is probably the one that's going to be able to take care of things best. So demonizing is a kind of short-term, you know, juicing of your energy. or stimulation of your energy, which sometimes might be helpful if it protects beings, but if you're thinking of a full-time protecting a being's job, you don't want to be using fear to motivate your protection, or demonizing to motivate your protection.

[39:14]

Does that make sense? Do you have any arguments opposed to that? No? Okay. Thanks for the question. Can you ask from there? You mentioned you're so close. Is that what you want? Is it okay if I come over there? I'd like you actually to come right over here and sit right here. Just sit down. I'm ready. You can sit on this little bench here. You can sit on it. You don't want to sit on here? Okay. You've come far enough. You don't really want me to.

[40:16]

You will if I really want you to? Well, you go ahead. You see, if you sit there and then you ask the question out that direction, those people in the back can hear you better. But if you want to start here, it's fine. You'll speak loudly? I'll try to. Okay, great. So, I'm a little confused. I'm confused with how a decision to leave a spouse or end a marriage fits into being kind and wanting to help. You're confused about how a decision like to leave, like if you're living in the same house with someone, you're confused about how moving out to another house or asking them to move out, how that would be kind? You're confused about that? Yeah, and how it would be helping. How are we helping them? Yeah, so what you do is you, like, well, one thing to do is, like, come to a sesshin and practice sesshin and calm down and then see the situation and maybe see how the appropriate response, the helpful thing to do, would be to, like, continue to live in the same house or move to a different house.

[41:40]

Maybe you'd see that. And then you could also say, I think that would be helpful. You might suddenly see, hey, it would be helpful if I lived over there and she lived over there. No, maybe helpful for both. It should be helpful for both. If it's not helpful for both, I don't think it's helpful for either. I never heard of anything that was helpful to one and not helpful to the other. If one person's hurting another person, and the person who's being hurt is protected, it protects the person who's hurting even more than it protects the person who's being hurt. Because if you get hurt, if someone hurts you, that's pretty bad for you. But you don't get in any further trouble other than that hurt. If you hurt back, yeah. But if you hurt someone, that might hurt you now or it might not, but the consequences of you hurting someone are enormous.

[42:42]

Whereas being hurt, any kind of hurt that anybody can do to you is small compared to the hurt that they could experience from hurting you. So if you are being hurt by someone and you do something so that you aren't hurt by them anymore, you help them and you And if you don't see that, then your meditation practice maybe can help you see it. If you can calm down and see for a moment, unafflicted by your grasping at various things, if you can see what it's like, what the relationship looks like in that calm space, you might be able to see it would be beneficial to both of us if I protect myself from this person harming me. So sometimes it really helps people when they're about to punch you to move the punching surface beyond their punch. Sometimes they find it very helpful. That was really helpful. Do that again. Let me try that again.

[43:43]

It's very helpful to show people who are trying to hurt you how you can move and respond in such a way that they don't hurt you. That's very helpful to them. Because then they can, like, learn to hit more accurately. And then you can, like, learn to move a wave more accurately. So this is very helpful. Could be very helpful. And if you're not clear about it, you know, if you think it might be helpful, and you're not clear, then ask, you know, a range of friends and advisors. Ask conservative and liberals, you know. You know. And I get confused. Well, you know, you're already confused. I said, if you're confused, if you think something might be good but you're not sure, then consult a range of people to get, you know, and if you get more confused, sometimes it takes a while to see clearly what's best. But it is possible in many circumstances.

[44:48]

that if someone is hurting you, it's usually the case that if someone's hurting you, it's often quite helpful for you to protect yourself from that person. It helps both of you. Not to mention many other people, too. And it develops your skill at protection, at protecting life, yours and the other person's. It's a loving thing to do. For you to protect your life from someone else harming you is a loving thing to do for both people. And it's also loving in the sense of developing your skills of compassion. Part of the skills of compassion are the precepts, and protecting your life and taking care of your life is the precepts. Letting someone else hurt you is you participating in helping them hurt you.

[45:58]

We should not contribute to people hurting us any more than we should contribute to hurting them. We should not contribute to people lying to us any more than we should contribute to them lying to others or us lying to them. To perpetuate dishonesty is related to being dishonest to yourself. So if there's dishonesty in a situation, sometimes you say, please excuse me, I am leaving the room. I do not want to talk like this anymore. This can be very helpful. Okay? Please, if you'd like to come up, come up. Come up but don't give up.

[46:59]

When you spoke of being present with someone's pain, I would like you to elaborate on that, if you please, with the overview of when I am in the presence of someone that is in pain, I feel very anxious. Because the person is telling me about their pain and I don't know whether to just sit and listen or whether to think of a remedy or think of something to take them out of their pain. Could you hear what he said? Yes? So the first thing I thought of is, you know, you talk about being close to someone who's in pain.

[48:14]

Of course, the first thing I think of is being close to myself who's in pain. So Sashin is a time to embrace and sustain your own mind of pain. And you train yourself at how to be present with your own pain. And then, if you can be present with your own pain, then you go visit someone else who's in pain, and they tell you about their pain, and you might feel pain hearing about their pain, especially if their pain is the pain they have about the way you are. But anyway, let's say it's not so painful as that. Let's say they just have cancer or some other painful disease, and they're showing you with their face and they're telling you with their words how much pain there is and when you hear those words you feel pain.

[49:20]

So the first thing to do is to be intimate with your own pain. And if you can be intimate with your own pain, you know, then you can calm down and then your hands and your eyes and your lips and your elbows become available to express the appropriate response to this person. But if you're not in touch with your own pain, then you're going to be agitated. And then you're going to be thinking, what should I do? Should I do this? Should I do that? Should I do this? Should I do that? And you're going to, of course, get more upset. And if you don't settle with that upset, you're going to think more and more what you can do. And you're going to pretty soon be standing there paralyzed next to the person's bed and perhaps talking two at the same time while you're paralyzed. And eventually the person would say, nurse, would you take this man out of the room? This man is making me very uncomfortable.

[50:24]

The sick people do not need another person to come there and be upset with them. THEY NEED SOMEBODY TO COME AND SHOW THEM HOW TO SETTLE WITH PAIN. SO IF YOU CAN SETTLE WITH YOUR PAIN, THAT IN ITSELF WILL BE HELPING THIS PERSON. AND SETTLING WITH YOUR OWN PAIN WILL BE USUALLY FAIRLY QUIET AND CALM. WHEN PEOPLE LIKE THAT COME INTO THE PAIN ROOM, usually the person in pain does not feel like they have to take care of you. But if you're sitting there thinking about what should I do for this person, then this person, the sick person, feels like they have to take care of you and tell you what you can do to help them. Well, you could, let's see, you could clean the room or you could turn the TV on. You could leave the room. You could So you don't want to be a burden to the person, and you won't be a burden if you're settling with your own pain. And if you settle with your own pain, you might suddenly feel like this hand here wants to reach out and touch somebody.

[51:28]

May I give you a massage? May I adjust your pillow? May I touch your hand? You may want to do that, and they may or may not want you to do it, but you may want to do that. But it's coming from you already settled with your pain. And I was married to my wife for a pretty long time before I learned something, and that is that when being told about some difficulty, she did not want me to fix it. What she wanted was for me to listen. Now, I'm not saying people never want you to fix it, but a lot of the time, when they tell you they're suffering, especially if they tell you that they have cancer, they do not expect you to fix it.

[52:35]

If they tell you they're depressed, they don't expect you to stop them from being depressed. They know that it's not that easy. Maybe if they tell the doctor, they say, now you give me a pill. But when we're told by a friend that they're depressed or being shown, they don't necessarily want us to fix it. What they want us to do is listen to it. And us listening to it and then saying, for example, oh, you're in pain. This sometimes is a big help. But I mean really listen, really let it in. So one of the ancient stories about this is a monk, one monk goes to visit another monk, and the monk who's being visited is a sick monk. So the monk, traditionally Buddhist monks go visit sick people, and you have a traditional question you ask them.

[53:40]

You say, how is your dear health? And then this monk, so he said, how is your dear health? And the monk said, my health is really poor. I'm in a lot of pain. I'm sick. And the visiting monk said, oh, you're sick. And the first monk said, I'm sick." And he woke up. So for us to, sometimes people are having trouble being sick, and if they tell us that they're sick and we really listen to them, we help them really settle into their sickness. And when they settle into their sickness, sometimes something really wonderful can happen. So you don't really have to do anything. But sometimes in your calm, you do feel like you want to do something.

[54:40]

But sometimes the main thing, usually the main thing to start with is to let the pain touch you and just be touched by it. How do you do that? Well, how do you do it in Sejin? How do you let your own pain touch you? How do you, huh? I don't think about the pain. I think about something else. He said he doesn't think about the pain. He counts his breaths. So maybe you should, maybe you should try sitting without counting your breath and feel the pain. Just maybe for like a few seconds. So you can get a hang of this embracing and sustaining the pain. You don't want to use the breath as a way to separate yourself from your pain. You want to use the breath as a way to settle into and become intimate with your pain. So the breath is a simple, you know, breath is not so painful to be intimate with.

[55:46]

So if you can become intimate with your breath, then you can be intimate with your pain and your pleasure, and then you can be intimate with other beings. So maybe you could stop using the breath as a buffer between you and your pain. All right. If I settle into my pain, it becomes dulled. It becomes dulled? Yeah, dulled, and eventually it has no effect. Yeah, that's fine. And then if you could settle into your pain and eventually it has no effect, then you can go visit someone else and you can settle into the pain you feel hearing about their pain until it has no effect. And then they can see how you settle with your pain, hearing about their pain, and then they can try it. Without you saying a word, they kind of can pick it up. This is called osmotic session.

[56:47]

And you can help people who are in very difficult situations by going into those situations and, you know, not cavalierly like, oh, well, we have some hell here. Okay, well, here I come. No, just, you know, quietly go visit the person who's suffering without turning your nose up at the suffering. And just quietly, gently, carefully settle into the situation with them And maybe they're already settled themselves, so they're already doing their patient's work, so they're fine, and you just harmonize with them. But if they are having any trouble accepting their great pain, if you can go in and settle with your pain so that your pain doesn't hurt you, then you can show them how to settle with their pain so their pain doesn't hurt you. Patients can get so well developed that even though while we continue to suffer, it doesn't really bother us because we learned how to experience it in minute little moments.

[57:56]

Then it's workable. So if you can do that with your pain so that the pain doesn't really, you know, scare you, drive you crazy, you actually calm with it, then you can do that with another person. This would be quite helpful. to say the least. This is compassion. Patience is an aspect of compassion, and it's compassion to yourself to settle with your pain, and then it's compassion for you to settle with your pain when you're with someone else. It's compassionate towards them, but it also teaches them how to practice patience, which is to teach someone how to practice patience is one of the main jobs of a disciple of Buddha and it's one of the main jobs of a Buddha, which the Buddha is practicing patience all the time herself and always happy to try to teach others how to practice patience with their pain.

[59:04]

But it's mostly by example and then some, you know, You can teach patience. I guess you can talk about patience without being patient. That's fine. That's still pretty good. But if you're actually practicing patience while you're talking about it, I think the message goes much deeper because you're telling the person about what you're actually doing right now so they can see it while they're hearing about it. Okay? I often tell this story, but since not everyone in the universe has heard it, I'll tell it one more time. And that is, there were some sessions I went to where I, I don't know what I did, but, I don't remember what I did, but I did something so that I got pretty comfortable. Whatever my pains were, they weren't like I wasn't wracked by them.

[60:12]

And I would sometimes go home on my breaks to visit my dear family, which consisted of a wife and a daughter. And sometimes I would come in on the breaks. I would somewhat glide into the house on these, you know, highly concentrated feet. feeling the floor. And I would come in there, you know, and see these people. Sometimes they seem to be squabbling. And I would encourage them to practice peace and be gentle with each other and forgiving. I would bestow blessings upon them Now, you might think that they would get angry at me, but they were more angry at each other, so they didn't really notice me.

[61:18]

But they found me to be generally irrelevant. Kind of like, just let that guy glide by. He'll be out of here pretty soon. We can go back to work. So I didn't cause much damage, although they could have said, hey, wait a minute, let's attack him. But they usually didn't because I was irrelevant. I was like, you know, a ghost or something, you know, a Sesshin ghost, you know, a cloud of bliss. So what? But then one time, something happened to me, and it was some kind of physical problem. And it was, you know, some kind of painful thing happened to me. I think it was in my back, and I could barely walk. So when I came home on the breaks from Sashin, you know, my feet were on the ground, but my knees were also close to the ground.

[62:26]

And I hobbled into the house in great anguish. And they might have been squabbling then too. But I had no beneficent comments. I just was barely able to survive myself. And, you know, I would have probably, if I ever thought of changing places with somebody, I would have rather been fighting than feeling the pain I was feeling. But anyway, I was doing okay, you know. My skin color probably was rather pale and yellow, or green probably. But the suffering person coming in there and going out, this person they found very relevant. And this Sashin person they found very helpful. To see him suffering, just kind of like, limping along there step by step.

[63:30]

That was, that they appreciated. That was relevant to their pain. They liked that session. That's a good session for them that I wasn't like holding on, attaining some state and holding on to it and gliding in and gliding out. But I had no attainment. I was just, actually, I did have an attainment. I attained suffering. I embraced and sustained the suffering. That was relevant. That was helpful. They liked that way of being. I wasn't like having all the Sesshin power to myself, you know, and them being kind of like second-class Sesshin people. I wasn't the Samadhi nut. I was just a suffering person who was trying to be a suffering person and being somewhat successful at being a suffering person.

[64:32]

This was relevant. THAT'S WHY WHEN YOU LEAVE SESHIN, DON'T TRY TO TAKE ANY ATTAINMENT WITH YOU. JUST GO AND SUFFER WITH PEOPLE. THEY'LL FIND THAT VERY HELPFUL. BUT IF YOU'RE HOLDING ON TO BLISS HERE, THOSE PEOPLE START TO, YOU KNOW, INTERFERE WITH YOUR BLISS, YOU MIGHT GET IRRITABLE. YOU SAY, YIKES, DON'T GO TO SESHIN ANYMORE. YOU COME BACK, YOU'RE REALLY NASTY. DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? Would you like a cushion?

[65:33]

Want some more? No. That's enough? We've got plenty here. I have a request and a question. You have a request? And a question. Do you have time for a request and a question? Do we have time? question, but is it slander or is it disparaging to say, and not only to say, but to post it on the wall and walk in the streets and if they're not, in fact, even engaged in apparent conflict and say clearly And in fact, the mouse is eating the cat. That probably shouldn't be the case.

[66:43]

You're saying, is it disparaging to say the mouse is eating the cat? I would say it clearly. Not really avoiding it. Not at all trying to use euphemisms. But clearly, almost in apparent conflict. What's the conflict? Well, perhaps the cat It's hungry. It's hungry and the cat knows. Anyway, let me just say that to say if you see a cat eating a mouse and you can't protect the mouse right away, and you think, you know, you can't stop this cat, but you think if you tell other people that the cat's eating the mouse, somebody can protect the mouse, and you want to protect the mouse, if you think telling people the cat's eating the mouse will protect the cat and the mouse, protect the cat from being a murderer, and protect the mouse from being killed, then I think it's good to say, the cat is eating the mouse.

[67:44]

Would somebody please help? That's fine. But if you're telling people that the cat is eating the mouse to make people think less of cats, to make people, you know, think cats are rats, and to think that you're better than cats who eat mice, if you're trying to put yourself up as the great conveyor of, you know, kindness and compassion and make people think that this other person is a worthless person, person compared to you. If you're trying to separate that person or being, cause division between that person and other beings, if you're trying to make people care less for that person and respect that person less, then I would suggest you find another way. But I could say about myself or you, if we were doing a harmful thing, it'd be possible for me to say, Swahiko is doing a harmful thing, without me wanting anybody to think less of you.

[68:47]

As a matter of fact, I might say, people, we love this man. We're here to help this man. This man's about to do something unfortunate, unskillful. Let's help our friend. And I want you to help him because you respect him. Do not think less of him when you help him, but help him be more skillful. And I want to tell you the unskillful thing he's doing so you can notice it and help him. But I'm not saying that to the people so they'll think less of you and more of me. I'm telling it to promote your union with them because whatever unskillful thing you're doing is probably interfering with your union Any unskillful thing you're doing is interfering with your intimacy with beings. So I don't want to make people think less of you. I want them to think the world of you and help you.

[69:48]

And so we want to help that cat realize its greatest potential as a cat. So we already know cats are beautiful and extremely skillful, and it is part of their cat nature to kill certain animals. But it's also possible that this cat could become a great vegetarian cat. And go beyond its basic programming of being a great hunter. To give up its hunting power You know? For people who can't kill to not kill, well, that's fine, but it's not that big a deal. But for somebody who can kill to give it up, it's a wonderful thing. So if there's some way to train this cat to not kill, this would be a wonderful project, but not because we try to make people care less for the cat. So you put the sign up that your intention is not to make people hate this person,

[70:51]

but to help this person be more skillful. And to be specific is very important, to be very clear about the way you would like them to be more skillful. And if you really respect the person, and you respect them and you can skillfully convey your respect, then if the person thinks you respect them, they think you're an intelligent person. If they think you don't respect them, they think you're crazy. And they're right. People listen to people who they, they sometimes anyway, listen to people who they think really love them and respect them. But we don't, you know, even then we sometimes don't listen. But if we think someone doesn't respect us and doesn't love us, well we're basically we don't think they're sane.

[71:54]

So we just like, we don't really listen. We just watch them carefully just to protect ourselves from them. So if you can convey respect to people who you think are doing something potentially harmful to life, they might listen to you. If they feel enough love from you, they will be disarmed. Your love for them can disarm them. Once they feel it, they'll melt. They'll stop being able to do the harmful thing. But your love has to be really big sometimes in order to overwhelm their hate, if that's the problem, or their greed, if that's the problem, or their confusion, if that's the problem. And that's, of course, the most difficult thing to teach people about. That's the question? Now there's a request? Okay. Did that make sense, what I said?

[72:57]

And it made sense. So the second request is support and courage. I've spoken on this many times already. A request for support and encouragement? It works. So I have this idea that yesterday in session happened, sort of running around, well, running around, He had a... Yesterday, he felt like maybe a Sashin happened. And now today, you're having fantasies about becoming a professional Sashin person? Oh, you're tempted to grasp the Sashin that's happened?

[74:06]

Oh, you're... So he felt like Sasheen happened and now he's like grasping this Sasheen. Yes? And you want some encouragement? Not to do that? You want some encouragement to let go of the attainment of Sasheen? Would you please give me your attainment of Sasheen? Would you give it to me? I'll take care of it for you. Ready to give it to me? Okay, I got it. Now you don't have any attainment obsession anymore. You're a free man. Do you feel free of your attainment obsession? Not yet? Give me the rest. Come on.

[75:07]

Don't hold on, don't hold back. Give it to me, give it all to me. Come on. Did you give the rest of it to me? Maybe. Come on. You don't need it. Give it to me. Please. I need it. You're welcome. So you've heard this before that, you know, awakening is to awaken to the, that there's nothing to attain in these sashins.

[76:21]

And nobody to attain anything, nobody who attains anything either. And so that's awakening and the question is, are you ready to attain nothing? Are you willing to give up whatever you've attained so far? And for those of you who haven't attained anything, are you willing to give up your non-attainment? So I see that sometimes we get tired of playing into personal practice.

[78:04]

We do get weary. So I'll try a little tenderness. And maybe later you'll want to play again. The session is not over, but I just want to tell you that I'm deeply touched by your great effort to take care of yourself in this rigorous practice, to take care of yourself in the middle of your pains and worries. I don't know if you heard the Dharma, but I think you're maintaining the Buddha Dharma. You are, by the way you practice.

[79:11]

And in doing so, the great earth and all living beings are attaining the Buddha way. So I'm really encouraged by each and every one of you, and congratulate you before it's too late. Although I'm feeling fine, I showed Maya where my nitroglycerin is today. She said, are you feeling okay? I said, I'm fine, but she knows where it is. So it's been great, and if there's any more, that'll be great too. Thank you very much. Good question.

[80:09]

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