So another way of saying what I've been talking about is the 16 Bodhisattva precepts guide us, can guide us into a state that I call being upright. You receive these precepts, study them and practice them, and they can guide you into a way of being upright. For example, you receive the precept of not taking, not stealing. You practice the precept of not stealing, not taking, and you can arrive at a way of being so that basically the way you are is you don't take anything. Doesn't mean you don't get anything.

[01:05]

You don't take anything. Everything is given to you. Everything that happens to you, you understand, is a gift. And nothing's taken from you. You give. So those are two precepts. One is not taking. The way you are is you don't take. And the other is you give. So in other words, you're not possessive. Things can't be stolen from you because you're not possessive. And so on. You tell the truth about the way you are. The way you are is truthful. You're actually truthful. You're actually the way you are. And so on. All the precepts then guide you to this way of being. Arriving at this way of being, if you were to perfectly arrive there, the precepts would spontaneously come forth from you.

[02:09]

So at the beginning, when you receive the precepts and study them and practice them, you may be sort of thinking about, you know, what's it like to be here and not take anything? What's it like to be here and understand that everything that happens is a gift? What's it like to be here and actually feel like everything that happens, I say thank you. That's being upright. But you can say thank you for pain. But you can say thank you for pleasure. When something good comes, you say thank you, that's it. You don't say thank you, could I have some more? Or you can actually say, could I have some more? But you don't take it. That was nice. Let's have that again. But it isn't like you're really in a grateful tone, not because you're trying to get more.

[03:16]

And pain, too, it isn't that you like pain. It's just pain. And you say, thank you. Thank you for the gift. Thank you for the gift. And you actually say thank you. I mean, not necessarily with your words, but I mean, you express thanks. You express gratitude. Gratitude's there, strongly expressed. So you kind of, in a sense, think yourself or guide yourself into this place. But when you get to this place, then the precepts, if you were there perfectly, the precepts would come from you without any deliberation. You would no longer have to think now. Does this violate the precepts? Is this in accord with the precepts? You could think that, but you don't have to. What you do is naturally the precepts. You naturally don't lie, you naturally don't steal, you naturally don't kill, but without figuring it out.

[04:23]

But in fact, Even though we guide ourselves into approximately being upright, we might not be perfectly upright. In fact, we have to somehow, not have to, but it's good to be open to the possibility that we need some training and some feedback from other beings as to whether they feel we're expressing these precepts. If you were being upright, if you were practicing these precepts, I think you would naturally be open to feedback on whether you had reached that state. One of the precepts is you don't praise yourself at the expense of others. In other words, you wouldn't think, well, I got in this state, I'm perfectly balanced,

[05:24]

but other people aren't, so they probably wouldn't be worthy of giving me feedback. So when you're in this state, actually, you don't put other people down. You see other people as worthy to help you enact these precepts. In other words, you want to have enlightening relationships, relationships where you express your understanding, and get feedback on it, or you express your understanding of your interdependence with beings and see how that works. You invite. And you also know, because other people are like you, that there has to be some mutual invitation sometimes in order to really interact fully. And you know that the real invitation means that you really do respect the person you're inviting.

[06:37]

If you say, you know, unrespectfully invite someone to give you feedback, they don't really feel invited. So you have to look at that precept of of not, you know, slandering others and also not putting yourself above others in order to really get feedback. And also in order to really give feedback. If you give feedback down, it isn't as enlightening as to give it level or up. So criticizing your teacher is actually kind of safe because you're looking up. Criticizing upward is actually not... That discrepancy is not such a problem, to criticize up.

[07:42]

To criticize towards someone who you really, really respect. Because, you know, it's not really criticism. It's an act of respect because you do respect them. criticism that's down is inappropriate. And so teacher also has to learn how to criticize not down. And since there's a natural hierarchy there, criticism is a really tricky business. So this being upright is both entered through the precepts and embodies the precepts and expresses the precepts. And again, as I've been talking about, the expression that comes from here will not only be in accord with the precepts, but it will be full expression because it will be telling the truth.

[08:45]

Telling the truth is what you call telling the truth and the whole truth. When you express yourself, you say exactly what you have to say, the truth about what's happening with you, and you stop right there. You don't go any further and you don't come short of that. So honesty and full self-expression are really the same thing. But there's many ways to tell the truth and there's many times to tell the truth and that's also part of the sense of respecting others about when and how you tell the truth. Because you're not possessive of the truth. The way the fruit of that precept sometimes stated is not being possessive of dharma, not being possessive of truth, not being possessive of the teaching. But that also means you don't hold it to yourself. You put it out there. This is the truth.

[09:51]

What do you think? And like in the marriage ceremony, I guess in some Christian marriage ceremonies it says, I plight thee my troth. And troth means truth. I plight thee my truth. I put my truth, I take my dharma, I put my teaching out there in plight of you. In other words, you can criticize it. You can, you know, it's endangered to you. My truth is vulnerable to you. I'm going to enter into a marriage with you, then I put my truth in danger to you. I don't have a wall, a fort around my truth. I want to be close to you. I want to be united with you. So I put my best thing in danger to you. I trust you with this. And you may change it somewhat. That may be part of what I have to do to have an enlightening relationship with you.

[10:59]

Since this is the last class in this series, maybe I'll stop so you have lots of time to bring up stuff. Have I said enough for you to bring up stuff? Yes, Salvi? I didn't get that very well about being thankful for receiving pain. You know, if somebody is causing me pain, it would be sort of difficult for me to say thank you. It would be difficult? Yeah. I don't understand that very well. Well, how about if you were, let's say you had a, I don't know, an interview with Buddha. Yes. And you asked Buddha, He said, is there anything that, you know, that I should work on?

[12:17]

Do I have any areas that I'm kind of overlooking? And Buddha would say, do you really want to know, Salvi? And you'd say, yeah. And then he'd tell you some area that you had been overlooking. Some area that would really, really be good for you to look at because you have really hidden it. And the Buddha tells you. And you feel this really strong pain And you say, ah, oh. And then you understand what the Buddha showed you. Maybe not right at the moment of the pain, but a little bit later you say, oh, yeah, I've been overlooking that for years. You know, I've been being mean to my wife or I haven't called my mother for three years or, you know, I'm cruel to my employees. So Buddha says, look at the relationship you have with your employees. So you look and you say, oh, my God. I'm a monster.

[13:18]

I really disrespect them. Oh, it's so painful to see. The Buddha got you to turn around and look at yourself. Very painful sometimes. Then after you maybe, a couple days later when you recover, you say, thank you. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. I really, no, you know, I know a guy, excuse me for saying so, he says to me, you're the only person who tells me the truth. Everybody else is nice to me. This is a real fierce guy, you know. He, like, says no to everything. Everybody's afraid of him. Everybody wants to, you know, everybody's either trying to be nice to him or get him to be nice. You know, I'd like him to be nice too, but, you know, really, I tell him the truth. And so he doesn't like me very much, but he comes and asks me, tell me the truth. Well, in this case, you know, the example that you put me is the person, Buddha in this case, is acting within the precepts. Yeah. It could be that some people is not acting within the parameters of the precept and giving me pain.

[14:22]

Well, then you might be grateful in a different way. Here's an example. There's an expression. I want to learn to regard someone who I have been very kind to and really been very generous with and very kind, who then turns and intentionally tries to hurt me. I want to learn to see that person as my greatest teacher. So, somebody's nice to you. You say, thank you. That's fine. That's good. That's a good thank you, too. But you already know how to do thank you for that one. How are you going to learn how to say thank you to not just someone who's cruel to you, but someone who you were kind to that's cruel to you? How are you going to learn that? You have to have the example. This is a hard example, I know. But this is a great teacher.

[15:26]

And so you may not be able to see it, but you might say, I would like to learn to regard this person as my greatest teacher. It doesn't mean you think they did a good thing, because Again, it's not that difficult to say, well, for you anyway, it's not that difficult to say thank you from people who do things you think are good. Some people even have trouble saying thank you to people who are doing good things, but I don't think you do. But someone who's not only doing something cruel, but doing something cruel to you, and also this is someone you've been kind to. If you're cruel to someone and they're cruel back, it's not so hard. But if you've been really kind to them and they're cruel, it's pretty hard. They're teaching you. What are they teaching you? They're saying, here's a lesson. This is a hard lesson. In some sense, the greatest teachers are the teachers who give you the hardest lessons.

[16:32]

So a lot of mothers, particularly, I hear mothers saying, my children are my greatest teachers. Because they're so difficult, it's so difficult to say thank you to your children who don't say thank you to you. You give them everything and then they're cruel to you. It's very hard. So then mothers often say, my daughter or my son are my greatest teacher. Sometimes they just say my son or my daughter are my greatest difficulty. It's the same thing sometimes. What's the lesson? What lesson are they teaching you? They're teaching you, they're giving you a lesson in, do you understand that everything that happens is a gift?

[17:48]

That's a lesson I've given you. That's one of the lessons I've given you. How is it a gift? Well, you didn't take it. You didn't take it. It was given to you. Right? In fact, you think that, don't you? Sometimes when you're treated cruelly, like especially with someone who you've been kind to. You don't feel like you took the cruelty. You don't feel like you walked up to them and said, give me that cruelty. Matter of fact, you think pretty clearly you weren't asking for cruelty because you're being kind to them. That isn't asking for cruelty. So you didn't do something to get the cruelty, right? You didn't manipulate the situation. Kindness brings in cruelty. That isn't what you thought, did you? You didn't steal it. You didn't maneuver it. You didn't finesse it. It was a gift. It was a gift.

[18:57]

But in some cases, you think, oh, I'm kind. They're nice. It wasn't a gift. I arranged it. Here I was, a good mother, good wife, good husband, good friend, and they're being nice to me. It wasn't a gift. I'm going to say, oh, I can see it's a gift anyway. And all the kind things I did had nothing to do with the fact that they're being kind to me. Well, fine. Then you learned it without the nice teacher of someone being cruel to you who you're nice to. But when that shows you, those cases show you, when you can see them as gifts, then you realize that everything's a gift. But it's hard, maybe in some ways harder to understand that everything's a gift until you get in a situation where you're really kind to someone and they're cruel to you. When you understand that everything's a gift, you've understood just about everything you have to understand.

[20:04]

When you really understand everything's a gift, you're not possessive anymore. When you think, well, I have so many gifts, so many gifts. You know, people are so kind to me. And when you feel like that, oftentimes people who feel like that feel like, geez, I have to share this with somebody. You feel more generous when you feel like everybody's generous with you. Almost everybody's generous with you. Does that make sense? Does that make sense to you, Deborah? Well, I... I'm having a little bit of trouble with the prism. I'm realizing there's two ways of looking at it. There's one... the adult has an awakening mind. And I'm thinking of more of a child abuse thing where that's pain, the mental pain, but it's not a mature mind. So I was just trying to put in what you're saying is accepting welcoming pain to get, I mean, understood to be cut off somewhere.

[21:14]

Well, I'll address that. But I wanted to know if you understood the idea that if you have some feeling for when you feel that you're getting a lot, that that tends to go with you feeling a little bit more generous. Does that make sense to you? like somebody gives you a big gift, you know, and then somebody gives you a bigger gift, and then somebody gives you a bigger gift, and pretty soon you start to think, Jesus, I'm getting all these gifts, and they're getting bigger and bigger. That kind of goes with, geez, maybe I should give some of this away. What I'm saying is that when you feel really like that's what's happening, then you're really generous. If you feel like there's some areas where it's not giving yet, you're still a little bit of stinginess, So feeling given to goes with giving. Now, okay, and if you don't feel given to, that goes with holding on because you think you get the stuff.

[22:21]

So if you think you get the stuff, then you got it, so maybe you should keep it because that goes with that idea of I personally get stuff by my own power. rather than my life is by the kindness of everybody. When I really feel that my life's the kindness of everybody, then I feel like, well, when I feel that completely, then I feel like, well, I'll be kind to everybody. Okay? Does that make sense? Before we go on to this example that Debra brought up. So, what's your example, Debra? Of an immature person, like a child? Yeah, listen. to adolescent or even younger somebody who is experiencing abuse by some person either approximately the same strength as them or stronger you can be abused by people who are weaker than you right anyway you experience some abuse and let's say you're an immature person right so now what's an immature person

[23:31]

Is there people following this example? No? What is an immature person? We have this theoretical immature person who's receiving, who someone is being cruel to. You can even get someone who agrees, yes, I am being cruel to that person. I hate that person. I'm trying to hurt them. There's other kinds of abuse, too. which we'll get into later. But let's just take the clear example of where someone's being cruel to someone and they agree, yes, I'm being cruel to them. And you have the person who's receiving the cruelty is immature. And Deborah's saying, well, how can they practice being grateful for that, right? But what does immature mean? What do you mean by immature? I was thinking more of a curious mind. I guess somebody in a place where they feel secure so that they can think curiously. You have someone who is thinking curiously, did you say? Yes. Is that an immature mind? No. No. Okay.

[24:40]

Right, I agree. It's not an immature mind. So what's an immature mind? Well, I mean, I don't think there's a very clear definition, but I would say it hasn't been allowed to develop. Hasn't been allowed to develop, right? Immature means you haven't developed. Mature means you've developed, right? Hasn't been allowed to develop how? Huh? Freely. And as a result of this free development, what is the result of the development in the mature state? Underdeveloped. I mean, I can go on. Poorly developed. No, no. We're saying... Let's take the case of, well, either one. Let's take the case of someone who is developed. What have they developed when they're mature? What do they have that makes it so that they can work with whatever is happening in a way that enlightens them? What have they realized?

[25:43]

What have they got? A sense of self. Uh-huh. Yeah. So without a sense of self, you would have trouble learning something about the self, wouldn't you? And it's possible that someone is just putting together a sense of self, and if they're abused in that state, that they won't be able to figure out how to relate to it. Plus they, what do you call it, it will retard even their development of their sense of self. Okay? So in a case like that, I think you're right that the teaching I'm giving right now probably shouldn't be given to them. All right? I wouldn't give a person like that this kind of teaching. What kind of teaching would I give a person like that? Teaching in the sense of self.

[26:56]

Teaching in the sense of self. And so would I give them teachings about the 16 precepts? Do they teach about self? They do? So I give them similar teachings to I give the mature person, in this case. I would say, you don't steal. I mean, I've tried to teach them how not to steal, but in such a way as to help them develop their sense of self. So it would be a similar teaching. But I might not tell them this other teaching about what? About being grateful for everything? I might not teach them that? So what would I teach him in that regard? You could still teach them about, um, that life happens and that, um... Yeah, I could teach him that.

[28:06]

...the world rising and... I could teach him that. But in the case of where somebody's being cruel to them, what would be the best teaching for them? Would it be full self-expression? Full self-expression, uh-huh. In the sense of noticing that someone's being cruel to them and being able to see that. Yeah. So someone... I see this person and I see someone being cruel to them or they're manifesting the effects of cruelty and I try to get them to express themselves, right? Hmm? I should teach them kindness or I should be kind to them? By being kind to them, maybe they can learn. I can be kind to them? Yeah. Somebody that is being cruel? I can be kind to them? Yeah. What would that teach them? That would teach them kindness, right? They would be an example of kindness. But also, in addition to that, I might invite them to sort of express what's happening to them.

[29:08]

To express how they feel about this, about this, what seems to be abuse. And it might be hard for them to say how they feel about it. They might be confused. So I might have to encourage them to express some confusion for a while because they're confused and support them to express confusion. Okay? And then, not then, and along with this, I might be teaching them the precepts. So I might be guiding them into the state of being upright, right while they're still confused. And if I start talking about this more, then it starts to become more like it's not more and more familiar to you in your more adult phase.

[30:11]

So I'm talking to a group of people here, and I'm talking about how it is that when you're practicing the precept of not stealing, that in a sense what that means is it guides you into a way of being that you feel that you don't steal. And then again, when you feel like you don't steal, you get into a state where you feel like... You don't take what you have as given to you, and then you're back there again. And then you again say, well, what about abuse? So when you're receiving harsh punishment, it's not because you did something to get it. You didn't make this happen. But the way you understand it has something to do with what you did.

[31:19]

And this is kind of a, you know, this is really complicated what I just said. In other words, I'm saying you don't make what happens to you happen. You don't take it and make it happen to you. But the way you understand it has to do with what you've done. If you understand it as abuse, that understanding is because of what you've done. But the thing that's happening to you is not because of what you've done. What's happening to you is a gift. The way you understand it as not a gift is because of what you've done. Would you roll that into an example? Well, just as an example, let's say the example of someone's being cruel to you that you're nice to. Now, some people would say, well, in the past you did a cruel thing, so now this is maturing and coming to you. That it's not from the kindness you've been doing now, but from some past act that people are being cruel to you.

[32:33]

Yeah, karma is part of this. No, I just made it more complex by what I said. I just added in an additional dimension here. But what I'm saying, I guess what I'm saying is that the way we interpret what's happening to us is a result of the way we have thought and acted and spoken. And if something's happening to us and we feel abused by it, and still even while we have the image of interpreting as an abuse, if we also further interpret it as a great opportunity, then you have something about us interpreting this as abuse and something about this interpreting this as an opportunity.

[33:39]

Those are two different possibilities that could coexist. Greg, can you repeat that again? The way we interpret what has happened to us is the way we have thought? The way we interpret what's happening to us has to do with how we've acted in the past and how we've thought in the past. So you need to realign and change that? Well, yeah. I mean, if you want to interpret things differently, if you want to be able to interpret everything as giving you your life, which is the way Buddha feels about what's going on, then you might have to change the way you think in order to be able to see things that way. Now most people do not understand that everything that's happening is given in life. Most people do not have the view that Buddha has. The reason why they don't have that view is because of past action. So part of what Buddha's teaching is, is to offer you some new ways of thinking.

[34:42]

And if you try those ways of thinking on and train yourself with those ways of thinking, you will start interpreting what's happening differently. And from that new interpretation, you will be grateful for everything. So even when people are cruel to you, you'll be grateful for the cruelty, even though you still know it's cruelty. Not because you interpret it as cruelty, primarily, because you primarily interpret it as an opportunity for compassion. Because anybody that's being cruel to you, who thinks they're being cruel to you on some level, they are, you know, the objects of your compassion, or they are opportunities for your compassion. Okay? Karma is part of it, but... I kind of would like to... Karma is part of this... The precepts are part of the karma thing because when you first receive the precepts and try to practice them, you practice them somewhat in terms of karma, in terms of things you do.

[35:49]

So using the precepts as a way, as part of the teaching by which you meditate on your karma guides you into a state of being upright. So the way you think about your actions of body, speech, and mind... will guide you towards being upright or away from it. If you think you're stealing or trying to steal, then it's going to be hard for you to be upright. If you think you're lying or want to lie or you're trying to lie, trying to be dishonest about what's happening to you, it's pretty hard for you to be upright. So these precepts in the beginning, that's why I say in the beginning of practicing these precepts, you think about them, you calculate them, you deliberate about them. And if you're careful and successful at practicing these precepts, you more and more find yourself in a balanced, upright, awake state. So you kind of, by karma, get into the state. But once you're in the state, the actions of the precepts come out of you, but not necessarily as something you do.

[36:52]

They're not necessarily karma. So for people who are still thinking in sort of a dualistic way, these precepts are something that they do. From the Buddha's point of view, it's just how you are. So it's karma on the way in, and on the way out it's not karma. It's just your nature that you don't take anymore. Because you understand that everything that's happening is a gift. And what comes out of you is a gift from you too, but it's not by you doing something. It's just that everything about you is a gift. Yes? I think I realize as I'm listening to you that I choose to reinterpret your words in a way that I want to hear them. And I thought maybe it would answer Salvi's question if I mentioned that. Gift and gratitude and thank you seem like value, making a judgment about the value of what comes to you.

[38:05]

And it was easier for me to hear it, and tell me if this is not what you meant, easier for me to hear it as equanimity, receiving things like maybe so, everything is... You receive it with equanimity rather than resistance or grasping or... I guess there's a connotation for me with the gratitude that's... It's more like attaching. I couldn't see it as free from a judgment about... that I would have about the behavior or the event that happened, which I thought maybe what Salvi was trying to say was, well, how can I say thank you for pain? If you just say, maybe so, to pain, or receive it with equanimity, is that different from what you're saying? It's not exactly different. It's just... What do you call it?

[39:07]

It just... What do you call it? It doesn't include the joy. Equanimity would be part of this story. You'd be... Being upright, you're equanimous, you're balanced. That's part of it. It's like when somebody gives you something, when you see that you're being given something, okay, in that state of, like, understanding what's happening is a gift... No, especially in the case of whatever it is, you are equanimous. But equanimous is not necessarily overflowing with joy at the giving side of what's going on. So equanimity cannot contain joy? No, equanimity can contain joy, but you didn't mention joy when you say equanimity. Joy is not necessarily articulated. But when you have equanimity, I would say equanimity promotes understanding that what's happening is a gift.

[40:09]

But you can have equanimity prior to understanding that. So there are beings who have achieved a state of equanimity, but they still do not understand that what's happening is a gift. There are beings who have equanimity and patience and there are examples of Buddhists and other kinds of yogis who are hurt and don't get angry because they practice patience. Which is one, that's part of it too, to be able to, part of this is to be able to practice patience because if you can't inhabit your body that's feeling the pain, then your gratitude doesn't really count because you're grateful in theory rather than in actual practice. Like I might say to you, like one of you might say, oh yeah, that sounds really cool, but actually to actually practice it, you'd have to be able to stay in your body when the pain arrived to actually say thank you for that pain. So you need patience and equanimity to actually be able to have the wisdom which understands that what's coming is a gift.

[41:11]

When you understand that, you have something in addition to that. You have great joy, which is an additional gift You know, it fuels. It's a fueling kind of thing. It's something more. So I recognize that some of you and many people are worried about the way I teach because they think of somebody who, if they heard this, might, for example, tolerate abuse or something like that, or someone might encourage someone to tolerate abuse or something like that. And it's possible that what I'm saying could be interpreted that way by the abusee. It's possible. I'm open to that possibility, but I'm not suggesting that the abusee just tolerate it.

[42:18]

I'm suggesting the abusee convert this into joy and thereby it's not abuse anymore thereby we have a buddha shakimuni buddha was abused people can you imagine people abusing shakimuni buddha can you imagine that would you abuse buddha if you met buddha some of you might say oh no not at all but you might Not in an intentionally mean way, but you might, like, try to, you know, extend your interview a little bit. You know, here, you know, Buddha's here, you know, and I got, you know, he's a busy Buddha, and, you know, and I finally got an interview, and it's time to stop now, but maybe, you know, might try to get a little bit more. Rather than this feeling of this great gift, and, like, not trying to get more, just thank you, [...] bye.

[43:18]

And people might watch, you know, the Buddha with all these people like kind of like not saying thank you, but saying, yeah, thank you, but more. Thank you more, more, more, more. People might see these people like doing that to the Buddha. They sometimes see this kind of thing. Say, look, the Buddha's being abused. Does the Buddha feel that way? Maybe. And Buddha thinks, oh, boy, they're really testing my Buddhahood. You know, here I am being generous and they're trying to get more out of me. Boy, this is a test. This is a great opportunity. I mean, here I am a Buddha and I'm like, I mean, I have to be a Buddha. They're like testing to see if I really am. And I'm like, this is like, you know, is this going to be verified or not? This Buddhahood. And some of Buddha's disciples disagreed with them, you know. And they kept disagreeing with them, even told them, no, that's wrong.

[44:22]

And sometimes they even got a little, you know, brusque with them. It's kind of like, you know, what's the direction here? How are we trying to... Would you actually... You know, what is your image of what you want to be? And like, you know, last night I was talking about something like this to people, you know, about how this being upright is actually when you don't steal anymore. You don't take anything. Everything is given to you. And you really do say thank you. You really feel grateful for whatever happened. But I said, you know, it's very difficult to feel grateful when people are looking at... It's very difficult for me to say I'm grateful when people are looking at me like you're looking at me right now. I didn't actually say that. I said, it's very difficult, and I just described how they were looking at me.

[45:25]

I didn't say how you are, but I just described their faces looking at me, talking about being grateful. When I talked about being grateful for whatever, they looked like somebody had just been squirting something very sour into their face. A very bitter idea that you'd be grateful for everything. And here I was saying that, but I was having a hard time being grateful for their response to me talking like that. They did not look happy to hear this. Well, actually, some of them looked very, very happy to hear it. It was the perfect thing for some of them, but for others, it was like really pushing them, you know? And that's part of my karma is the way I am is like some people are kind of like, oh, that's really great. And some other people are going like, oh, get out of here. The funny thing is, what I'm saying is the people who are saying, oh, really great, they're not really learning that much from me. I'm just like giving them just what they want. The other people are really like, they're like getting pushed to learn. And I'm like getting pushed to learn from them.

[46:30]

Like, ugh. But it's nice that some people appreciate you occasionally. It's okay. Thanks. It's kind of a little break, like a little vacation from the real work. And you don't love the disciples who are mean to you more than the ones who are nice. You're not supposed to do that. And of course, it's not usually a problem, but the other way around you're not supposed to do either. In other words, like the disciples who sort of all say, oh, you're such a good teacher. And some people said that I'm really lucky because I have just the disciples I deserve. Except for you people who are, you know, you're not giving me much trouble. But I have some other disciples who give me a lot of trouble. They're not the people I would have chosen to be my disciples. Is it kind of like what you're saying is...

[47:37]

Right. That's right. That's right. I was at a retreat and I had really bad stomach pains all day Saturday, so I was feeling really disappointed and frustrated because I couldn't be fully present with the lectures and the activity. But then I remembered what they were talking about last week and I was like, what is the And the full self-expression. Now, at least I had to go to bed and miss a couple of hours. Yeah. My body was really bothering me. And then it was really hard for me to admit that that was the honest truth in that moment. That was the teacher in that. Right. Right. And so you look at what is being upright. And also, when you're having a hard time, what does it mean to practice the precepts?

[48:40]

So when you're having a hard time, one of the precepts is don't be possessive. So when you're having a hard time, it's hard to not be possessive of good health or having an easy time. Like a few minutes ago, I was having an easy time. Okay, time to let go of having an easy time. Let go. It's a hard time now. Then you're having a hard time, you kind of get used to it, and then people start saying, easy time now. I just got used to hard time, you know? Now, easy time, hard time, the nice thing about hard time is you don't have to worry about, like, being too complacent. Now, you have easy time, but, you know, either you're worried, maybe I'm overlooking something, right? And that gets taken away. So that's the precept of, you know, not being possessive of what's happening. Then the next one is something happens and you're not supposed to get angry at it. So how do you practice the precepts? Not getting angry, not being possessive, being honest, not taking, and so on. So how do you do all that in the middle of some difficulty or ease in it?

[49:45]

How do you practice being upright? How do you practice the precepts? That's the orientation. Yes? Yes. to speak about childhood because I think it strikes a chord with everybody. And being back to what I was saying earlier, I think that I think one of the definitions of an immature being or immature person sooner were born into this world is very inept physical creatures for the first few years of life. And I think everyone can universally relate to the helplessness of a baby or a child. And I've worked in emergency services for a long time, and that's one of the things that seems to strike a chord with police officers, firefighters, and all these really tough guys. If anything involves a child, whether that's a crime or a missing or a fire or anything, everyone gets upset about it. All these tough guys that can handle anything, but suddenly if it involves a kid, forget it. And one of the things that I think is the definition of an immature person is somebody who has their choices made for them, which everybody pretty much does in childhood.

[50:47]

Adults are in charge and kind of learning and being able to make mistakes . But having grown up in an environment that wasn't so great, it was pretty abusive as a child, I think it took me years and it took me some perspective. But to look back on that and see that as a gift is an important part of my life right now. And the part that I see as a gift is the fact that it made me stronger as a person. So I can see that part as a gift. So here, you know, my honest response is, and maybe I shouldn't say it, but we look at children as beings who, well, how do you put it, have decisions made for them, like you said. We look at them that way. Right? And some children go along with that. They think, oh, these decisions are being made for me. Some kids buy into that.

[51:49]

But not all kids do. Right? Some little people, you know, everybody around them is thinking, we're deciding this for... But they sit there and they think, hmm... And they decide maybe not to mention that that's not the way they see it. They decide to not argue and say, you know, actually, I'm deciding this. I mean, I'm deciding this, this, and this for myself. You're deciding what you're doing, yes. You're an adult. You think you're deciding what you're doing. But you're not deciding things for me. You just think you're deciding to think that way. And not too many little kids can say that, but some can't. You know, in between other things, like, you know, give me that toy and, you know, messing with the dogs and stuff like that and asking for more candy. But they also can see that I'm deciding to ask for more candy. Nobody's, like, making a decision for me to ask for more candy. I'm doing that. But we sometimes think we're deciding things for the children.

[52:52]

And sometimes they will make the decision to appease us and get our love, because that's what they want. They decide to agree with our version of reality, namely that they're making our decisions. We're making their decisions. But some children don't go for that, and some other kids pretend like it, but don't lose track of it. But it's hard to pretend like that and not lose track of it. It's such a complicated thing because it's dishonest. Because basically it's honest for them. I would say it's honest for the children to admit that they are making decisions for themselves. But part of what's difficult about all this, about this chart and about this practice, is that in the phase of self-expression, whether it's before or after being upright. Self-expression, expressing yourself, is the etymological meaning of autonomy.

[54:03]

Sometimes autonomy, and some dictionary says autonomy means independent action. But it's not independent action, it's self-action. It's your acting on the basis of yourself. And what a lot of people, children and adults, feel is that when you're acting under someone, when someone else is sponsoring you or your patron or your protector, you feel more secure. And a lot of people stay in that secure space for a long time. But to act autonomously, to express yourself, you're out from underneath that patronage and that protection, and you realize you feel insecure. And we, whatever age we are, we have the difficulty of expressing ourselves on our own, actually expressing ourselves out here rather than back under the umbrella of somebody else's sponsorship, which is basically they're saying,

[55:08]

you know, I'm taking responsibility for what you're doing or what you're doing is basically under my auspices or under our auspices. We back you. This is not you. This is you sort of agreeing with us and us supporting you. You're not out there on your own. And part of what I'm saying is that whatever age the person is, That what the Buddha tries to do is to get the person to come out and express themselves. Wherever you are in this chart, if you're before being upright, if the person's breaking the precepts, we try to get them to admit that they're breaking the precepts, to come out in the open. And not to break the precepts or not break the precepts, but come out in the open and show what your understanding of the precepts is. And if you're doing that, you feel insecure. And whatever age you are, it's a scary thing to do.

[56:12]

And whatever age you are, I'm saying, that really is the human condition, is to express yourself and be insecure when you express yourself. And this thing about being under somebody else's... sponsorship or patronage and that security there is not the true human spirit. It's just delaying the real process. And in a sense, a mature person or a person who's maturing is somebody who's starting to come out into that insecure space. And so how can we support each other to come out there? And I think it's by doing it yourself and it's by inviting others to do it. Those two things promote this dangerous human work. And not just inviting others to do it and taking the risk ourselves, but also inviting others to help us with it and being willing to help others with it.

[57:18]

and to be honest about our limits in helping others and to be honest in our limits of how we want to be helped. That's going to be very respectful to say, you know, I want this much. That's enough. I'm not ready for more. That will help them help you. And how much do you want? And to have these kind of conversations, it's to create the container, not the umbrella, that hides your own responsibility, but a container where you can start exercising your responsibility, which means starting to be aware of what you're doing. You always are doing this stuff, but somehow if you're back under somebody else's auspices, you feel this childlike thing. And when you look back from a more mature state, you can see more and more that all those things that were there actually helped you come to be where you are now, and you're grateful for the whole story.

[58:31]

And when you get to the place where you're not grateful, you have to grow up more before you can be grateful back deeper, because everything in our past no matter what it was, it's part of your history to bring you to this actually great place that you're at right now, where you can contemplate being a fully responsible autonomous being and be willing to then meet another fully responsible autonomous being and have a relationship where enlightenment could be. could be realized through that kind of relationship. Yes? I wanted to ask you about compassion. You mentioned it tonight that In relationship to when someone was being cruel, that you would be able to look at them and practice compassion. That was one of the gifts. Yes. And I also saw it on the board under great compassion.

[59:36]

Yes. If you could just address the meaning of compassion. Well, first meaning of, there's, you know, in Chinese, well actually in Sanskrit too, there's two words which are kind of related to compassion. One is called, it's often translated as loving kindness, which is maitri in Sanskrit and metta in Pali. And that's like, you actually want a person, at least one person, and eventually many people. You want them to be happy. You want them to feel at ease. You want them to be healthy. You want them to be free. You want that for them. You really feel you want the best for somebody. You even want them to be enlightened. That's friendliness or loving kindness or love. But there's another word in Sanskrit called karuna, which is more often translated as compassion and not as loving kindness.

[60:38]

And karuna has the meaning of, I heard Dalai Lama say, it has the etymology of dented happiness. You can't actually have compassion if you're not happy, I would say. If you don't have some happiness, you can't really wish other people were happy. If you're totally miserable, it's just pretty hard to wish other people are happy. But when you see miserable people and you're happy, their unhappiness kind of dents your happiness, and you kind of want them to be happy. And wanting them to be happy doesn't take the dent away, but when they become happy, At least in that case, the dent's gone, and then you're fully happy. And I think many people here can identify with that. You feel good, but when you see somebody miserable, you don't feel as good. You don't somehow let yourself feel completely happy when you see somebody suffering.

[61:40]

So you, partly because of that, you really want them to be happy and be free of their suffering. That's compassion. And in Chinese, there's two characters. that are translated as compassion, but one character means love and compassion, and the other means pity or sorrow and compassion. So there's a sad and a happy side of love. They're both love, and you both want people to be happy, but one has more of the happy, friendly side, and the other has more of the pain side. But great compassion is not just that you want people... Compassion is that you're aware of people's suffering, But even if you're not aware of their suffering, you want them to be happy. But you're aware of their suffering, you want them to be happy. But great compassion is that you're dedicated to work for that happiness, and it's infinite. There's no exceptions. And great compassion comes from understanding interdependence, realizing the way things are.

[62:47]

you just, without even thinking of it, and without there being anybody else, you work for the welfare of all beings. You work for welfare of all other beings who you do not see as other. Yes, Thomas? You mentioned the metta practice or the loving-kindness practice. Yes. In my own personal sitting practice at home, I find myself kind of going back and forth between doing either metta practice or doing, just being present Zen practice. Yeah. And I sort of need metta practice sometimes because it's like a vacation from like just being present with myself. It's easier to do, you know, may all beings be happy, rather than just being present sometimes. And as a path within the context of Zen, I thought maybe you could bring that to another place.

[63:56]

I'm not asking you whether one is better than the other, but I find it difficult sometimes just to sit and be, you know, without doing something. Yeah, yeah. Did you hear his question? He understands Zen practice as just to sit and be, and then there's another practice of loving-kindness, of thinking of the welfare and happiness of other beings, and generates certain positive... energy, positive feeling. But just to be, you're not really generating anything. You're just being with what's ever being generated. Stuff's being generated, and you're just sitting in the middle of the generation. Right? And then sometimes he wants to take a little break from just sitting in the middle of the generation to do a little generating. And it's like a vacation from just being. Is that what you're saying? That's what I said, yeah. And then he was saying, he was kind of like saying, not one's better than the other, but you're wondering about the relationship?

[65:01]

From your perspective, having... I would say that in some sense what the loving kindness is for, in your case, is probably your natural, maybe a natural feeling for what your body and mind needs. You may need to practice loving kindness in order to just be. you have to somehow generate enough love to let yourself do this. You have to do this thing in such a loving way. So if you're just being in the middle of all the generation of your life processes, if you're being in that way without sufficient love, you're not doing it in the way you should. So it's appropriate that you would then try to bring some loving feeling to it because you need a kind of loving feeling there in order to really do it. And this relates to somewhat what Paula brought up, is that without wishing for the welfare of all beings, without devoting yourself to the infinite love and infinite devotion to all beings, without doing that, without doing that, you can understand the selflessness of your own personality.

[66:22]

You can see the insubstantiality of the person that you're concerned about and that you're always taking care of and that you're always concerned for getting gain for. In other words, you can become free of that misery of self-concern and being involved in gaining stuff and improving yourself and all that pitiful situation that we're in. You can do that without this great compassion. But to realize the ultimate and most profound level of insubstantiality, which is even more deep than realizing the insubstantiality of your own person, to realize that, you need to be very, very loving. You need to be very good at loving in order to have the most profound wisdom. To sit in the middle of what's happening and just be there is pretty wise. But to do that more and more fully you have to somehow develop more and more resources of love and kindness and sweetness and warmth in order to really be super rigorous and strict about whether, you know, you're really following the precepts.

[67:40]

And really have the courage to really embrace the most difficult challenges of meditation. So it's not exactly that loving kindness is different from that. It's more like an aspect of what it means to just be in the middle of your life. You can't really be in the middle of your life unless you're very kind and sweet and loving to yourself and to your experience. Barbara, did you have a question? Outstanding? Yeah. Actually, back to the child part. Yeah, we want to go back to the child thing? Fine. Well, I thought I heard you say that would be very similar to something all in the name of . And what I thought I heard you say was that when we experience pain, it's our interpretation of what's happening that's causing us pain.

[69:00]

No. Not quite. I mean, it's a kind of interpretation, but what I'm talking about is that more important, in some sense... Let's just say, let's not talk about the fact that the pain is an interpretation, but rather the interpretation that it's being done to us, rather than it's a gift. That's what I was saying. Okay. So another aspect of the question was, I made an assumption actually after I listened to you for a while, that this teaching is for a more mature person. Yeah, Buddhism, generally speaking, actual Buddhist teaching is for mature people. And we have other teachings which Buddhists give to people who aren't mature to mature them to the place where they can actually get teachings which are teachings which actually set you free.

[70:01]

Okay? So this expectation to see the giver of pain or release pain as a gift is not an expectation you would put on a baby, on a small child. Depends on the baby. Depends on the baby. Yeah. I mean, most babies can't understand an English sentence, right? So, you know, I'm not going to say... I mean, I might say it and they wouldn't, you know, no problem. If they understood, fine, you know. This is actually a gift to you, this thing this other kid just did to you. You know, you will soon realize that this person is your greatest teacher. I might say that to some kid who doesn't even speak English, right? If I had some kind of, like, intuition that... that I was actually talking to somebody else there and reactivating some kind of deep, good roots. But generally speaking, you talk to kids differently than you talk to adults, right? Right, but I'm imagining that you could now be talking about some inner personal lesson.

[71:04]

And I would take it to the extreme of understanding life. Excuse me, I think we're getting a little off the track, okay? I do. Because you asked me a question before. I didn't answer it. You didn't understand what I said. If there were children in this room, I would not be talking like this. Okay? Actually, I think that clarifies it. I would be talking different if there were little kids in the room. And I would hopefully be talking to them in such a way that you wouldn't be bored. Because you'd notice, I generally would talk to the lowest common denominator. And the people who are more advanced oftentimes have trouble being tolerant to me talking to the newcomers. But I talk to the newcomers because they'll be left out if I talk to the senior people. And sometimes senior people will leave because they don't want to go through another lecture to the beginners. If there are children in the room, I would talk differently. Okay? You would hear different things from me if there are little kids in the room. but you're not little kids, and I know you a little bit now, so I talk to you this way.

[72:10]

So sometimes when you bring up, what if this was heard by somebody else, I wouldn't be saying it to somebody else, probably. And if I was, then I would, if there was a child in here and I didn't notice it, some of you might say, you know, you shouldn't say that because there's some kids in the room. Oh, sorry. They look like they're 35, but you tip me off at their kids, okay, I'll cool it. I take feedback, right? Just like I wouldn't talk the way I'm talking here if there were little people, I also often point out to people that although you may not know it, I don't talk the way I'm talking to you when you're not around. I don't talk like this when I'm walking around the street. What I say is somewhat in response to you. So in some sense, it's an outrageous statement that what I'm saying is, I may not be hitting the mark, but mostly I'm just trying to respond. I'm responding to you. And if this isn't for you, then tell me how it isn't.

[73:11]

Don't worry too much about the people who aren't here, because if they were, then things would be different. I'd be responding to them. Okay? Okay. And it's just natural to not talk to kids about certain things and to talk to them about others. But strictly speaking, certain kinds of Buddhist teachings are intended for people that are a little older, who have gone through certain things, who, for example, know about sex and stuff like that already from personal experience. They pass through that stuff or they're in the middle of it anyway and they know it so then you can teach them a certain kind of thing. They know about certain kind of suffering and some other people don't. But one of the things I want to say, one more thing I want to say is that part of what I'm into is, you know, I'm going to die pretty soon. And part of what I see this Buddhism about is

[74:18]

is walking with you into death. And when death comes, I want to be able to hold your hand and say, yes, I do think this is a gift. I don't want to like, you know, at the last minute say, And if you go a little ahead of me, I want to be able to help you go into death awake and loving and fearless and grateful. And if I go with you right at the same time, I want to be that way with you. And when it comes time to be born again, I want to be grateful for birth. Birth and death are hard on the people who are going through it. Kids do not have an easy time being born. It's a real hard thing. Dying is real hard. And what's in between birth and death is hard too. But they're particularly hard. We know they're going to be hard. Right? It's not going to be easy. And the years leading up to them are not going to be easy.

[75:21]

I'm really kind of like really feel challenged beforehand by Alzheimer's. How am I going to practice then? This is the kind of things which I don't want to be kind of like a happy-go-lucky Zen monk, you know, love everything, and then suddenly when something really hard comes, it kind of like my practice just goes shot. And say, remember what I said about being grateful? Well, forget this. This is just, everything's really crappy, you know. Life is just, you know. No, I want to like actually continue this feeling of love and compassion and appreciation and awakeness and paying attention and carefulness and all this good stuff even when it gets really tough and the things that people do to you now are pretty bad but some harder stuff's coming than that so let's like work on these examples we got now for the bigger ones that are coming don't start you know start now being appreciative and see if you can be appreciative as they raise the ante

[76:24]

right up to the top and say, no matter what it is, I love life. Life is, I'm grateful for this human birth. It's a great opportunity. It's the only place where Buddha can happen. And I want, I want Buddha. I want love, and you can't have love and compassion on a smooth, placid summer lake. That's not where it happens. Compassion happens in the rough and tumble world of birth and death. Buddhists do not live up in palatial heavens. They come down into the gutsy, challenging world of birth and death. That's where they live. They're also up there, but their real life is down in the trenches with us. I was attracted by people, by stories of people who could practice that way in real difficult situations.

[77:31]

When being robbed and criticized and insulted and distrusted. People that were really trying to be nice, you know. People, real kind Zen monks who were being attacked and criticized, but they came back with, is that so? Or, here, have this too. Or, Yeah. What else can I do for you besides, you know, being here as your dartboard? I thought, now that is what, that's the way I want to be. And I still do. But it's an incredible hope. I mean, it's a very heroic, outrageous aspiration. Don't you think? That's the one I like, actually. And, you know, I have a hard time with headaches. So, you know, I don't know how well I'm going to be able to do when things get really rough. But that's what I'm preparing for and that's what I want.

[78:35]

And I really appreciate your practice. I feel blessed to have spent these six weeks with you. And may all your relationships be enlightening.

[78:57]

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