we will probably chant the Jyulamira Samadhi. Is that right? And it starts out, the teaching of suchness has been intimately communicated by Buddhas and ancestors. Now you have it. So please keep it well. Now you have it, so please keep it well, but also please don't take that too personally. Take it personally because you have it, but not too personally.

[01:06]

Later it says, in the poem it says, you are not it, it actually is you. You have it and you don't have it. You possess it without holding on to it. So when it says, please keep it well, it also means, please learn what it means to keep it well. Or it means, what does it mean to keep it well? And the rest of the poem is hints. about what it means to keep this teaching, this practice of suchness, which is the main concern of Buddhas and ancestors. How to keep it properly, appropriately. How to not let go of it and how not to hold on to it.

[02:10]

How not to let it get lost and how not to hold to a fixed view of what it is. So these ten vows of the Bodhisattva Samantabhadra that we've been studying for some time, these ten vows are to help us not turn away from the practice of the Buddhas and ancestors, and also to protect us from grabbing onto it and possessing it, or thinking that it's ours personally. One time, Suzuki Roshi's wife said to me, if you take care of something for a long time,

[03:12]

you may think you own it. If you take care of your body for a long time, if you take care of Zen or Zen Center for a long time, you may think you own it. But if you don't take care of it, and just forget about Zen or your body or Zen Center or all sentient beings, that doesn't work either. So how can we stay connected to the truth and all sentient beings, not separating and not possessing? These ten vows are hints, ten hints, or ten approaches to staying in contact with all sentient beings without grabbing them.

[04:14]

Which is the same as receiving the teaching of thusness right now without having a fixed view of what we've received. These ten practices are paying homage or aligning ourselves with the Buddhas, praising the Buddhas, making offerings to Buddhas, aligning ourselves with all Buddhas, praising all Buddhas, making offerings to all Buddhas, thoroughly confessing and repenting our own non-virtue, our boundless non-virtue, rejoicing in the merits of others, beseeching the Buddhas to teach, beseeching the Buddhas to stay in the world, doing the practices which all Buddhas have always done,

[05:25]

accommodating and serving each and every sentient being, and dedicating our lives to all sentient beings and all Buddhas. These are the ten modes to help us develop the proper relationship with all sentient beings and with our Buddha nature. When these ten types of practices are described, at the end of each description it says that the bodhisattvas will do these practices, will make these offerings, will make these praises, will do these confessions, will serve and accommodate to the needs of sentient beings, will rejoice in the merits of others.

[06:44]

All these practices they will do. And they will do them until they reach the end of space, until they reach the end of all sentient beings. But since there's no end to sentient beings and there's no end to space, there's really been no end to these practices that they do. And then it says, and they will do this without becoming weary. And I like to say, without becoming jaded. And jaded, jaded means weary. But jaded also has the connotation for me of maybe doing something that's quite pleasant, but doing it so much that you get tired of it. So I thought of this because I was going to tell a story now, and it's a story I've told over and over and over again.

[07:46]

And I always feel sad when I think of telling it. I feel sad for other sentient beings to hear this story again. But then I think, maybe I should spare them, but it actually keeps coming up in my head as such a good example because it actually happened to me. It was such an inspiration. So part of me wants to keep telling you new stories, interesting ones. But another part of me feels like if my mind produces this, I trust that to some extent. And I don't, what do I say, it's actually respecting you to give you the same thing again and again. To not keep upping the ante so that you won't get jaded. But assume that you're not going to get jaded. Not assume, but hope that you don't get jaded. That you can hear the same thing over and over and over forever.

[08:52]

Anyway, I hope so. The story is, basically it's a story that at a certain point in the cycle of my life, I heard some stories. And these stories were inspiring to me, inspiring in the sense that I thought, oh, what a beautiful way for a person to live. And if I could live like that, well, I'd be okay. And if everybody could live like that, everybody would be okay. These are stories, the stories I'm thinking of are stories of Buddhist monks, Zen monks, Chinese and Japanese. And in particular, I'm thinking of a story about a Zen monk named Ryokan.

[09:56]

He lived in most of his life on the Japan Sea, near the Japan Sea, which is snow country, I think, in a small hut. And he was alone a lot of the time. And the story says that one night, it was a full moon night, and sitting in his hut. He sensed someone approaching. Someone here. Where is he? He left. He told me he lives I guess up near Sebastopol or something.

[11:01]

He lives in a house and he says in his house it's so quiet. There's no people around. He says you can hear people. You can hear someone coming. Long distance away you can hear someone coming. Are you here? And so anyway, he maybe was in a hut like that where he could hear someone approaching and not only hear them approaching, but could tell by their footsteps something about them. So he sensed that this was a thief coming. So as the thief approached his hut, he threw his valuables out the window to the thief. and said, I'm sorry, I can't give you the full moon too. So not only was he willing to give the gift to turn that opportunity so that he could take, instead of being robbed, he could have an opportunity to give, but he wanted to give more than he had even.

[12:20]

He wanted to give the moon too. Actually, it is okay also to give the moon, but he somehow didn't think of that. It's okay to give things that don't belong to you, as long as, you know, like you can give the mountains to people and give the moon to people and say, I give this moon to you. It's all right. And when I heard that story, I just thought, well, that's wonderful. And it's just, the thing that moved me so much about it was that it was just slightly different from what I might ordinarily have done. So close, you know. It's the difference between taking something and throwing it out the window and holding it in your hands is very close. It's, you know, it's just like, all you got to do is go. It's still close. It's not that far. And then the difference between keeping your mouth shut

[13:24]

or having your mouth say, you can't have this, go from you can't have this to I wish I could give you the moon too. It's not that difficult, the difference between those two. I mean, I shouldn't say it's not that difficult, but they're kind of like, they're kind of close. I mean, they're both, we have the ability to do both. It's kind of like, which way do you go? And I thought, that's what moved me so much is that it was very close to what I could ordinarily do And yet that little bit of difference was so great. And I, when I was a kid, you know, I grew up exposed to stories about this Jewish guy named Jesus. And basically, I got this good feeling about the guy. Just the sort of the overall sense of his presence. I really liked him. But a lot of the stories about the miracles he did, I just couldn't... I didn't understand how to relate to them.

[14:34]

They seemed so far away. He didn't just like... It isn't like he just took his possessions and instead of holding them, he gave them away. It's like he took them and then he threw them out the window and they bloomed into, you know... a big pile of gold, or instead of, if somebody ugly came towards him, instead of shrinking away, he went towards them. I could see that, but then to go towards them and cure them of leprosy, that was like, I couldn't get that part. But a story, the story about just the simple difference between shrinking away from someone with leprosy or reaching out and touching them, that That's what inspired me, that slight difference that I could comprehend. That's actually what got me interested in Buddhism, those kinds of stories. And then after a while I found out, I had already before that been practicing yoga a little bit from books and classes.

[15:50]

But I didn't associate yoga with these stories. And then later I found out that these stories were about people who actually were in some kind of training program. In other words, they would receive some special education. Not to say they wouldn't have been wonderful people anyway, but they, in fact, almost all these stories which I liked were stories about people who did a daily exercise program, and they all did the same one. And it was this kind of like sitting practice. And then I found out shortly after that how to do it, and I tried it, and... It immediately impressed me. I mean, the activity immediately impressed me. The thing that impressed me, I tried to explain it to my friends what it impressed me about it, and all I could say was it seemed real.

[16:55]

It seems real. I would say today it seems such, or it seems thus. I couldn't say it was fun or not fun. I could say it was difficult to start. After the first few times, it became difficult to continue. But every time I did it, I felt such and such seemed right on. So I loved it, and actually I gradually felt like it was really what I wanted to do with my life, but it was difficult. So anyway, my life went on to try to find out some way to continue that practice. But part of what I want to say tonight is that I kind of forgot the thing that led me to the sitting in the first place, namely those stories. that I started sitting because people who behaved in a certain way did the sitting.

[18:01]

But after I started doing the sitting, I forgot about these people to some extent and just became enamored with the sitting itself. And that's a funny thing that happens to a lot of Buddhist meditators, is they're attracted to the meditation, a lot of them anyway, because of the beauty of the conduct of meditators. And not just the beauty of the conduct of the meditators when they're meditating, but after they get up from their formal meditation and go out into the marketplace, people meet them and they say, what's going on with you here? Why are you acting that way? And they say, well, because I sit, or whatever. And then they try it. But then after they try it, they often forget their motivation, and they get into the meditation very deeply sometimes and forget about the acts of compassion which turned them toward the meditation in the first place. That happened to me. In other words, I got overly absorbed into the aloneness of practice, maybe I would say.

[19:22]

And these ten practices of Samantabhadra are about not so much the aloneness, they really are the aloneness, but they're the aloneness through relationship. Whereas the sitting is kind of the aloneness through oneness. Does that make sense? So lately I've been trying to recreate the more compassion side of the practice that surrounds the suchness of the sitting. by E.E.

[20:35]

Cummings that he wrote for his daughter, wrote some fairy tales for his daughter. I don't know if they're really fairy tales, but once upon a time, this is called The Elephant and the Butterfly. Once upon a time, there was an elephant who did nothing all day. He lived by himself in a little house away at the top of a curling road. From the elephant's house, this curling road went twisting away down and down until it found itself in a green valley where there was another little house in which a butterfly lived. One day the elephant was sitting in his little house and looking out of his window doing nothing and feeling very happy because that was what he liked most to do.

[21:47]

When along this curling road he saw somebody coming up and up towards the little house and he opened his eyes wide and felt very much surprised. whoever is that person who's coming up along and along the curling road towards my little house, the elephant said to himself. And pretty soon he saw that it was a butterfly who was fluttering along and curling the curling road ever so happily. And the elephant said, my goodness, I wonder if he's coming to call on me. As the butterfly came nearer and nearer, the elephant felt more and more excited inside himself. Up the steps to the little house came the butterfly. And he knocked very gently on the door with his wing.

[22:55]

Is anyone inside?" He or she said. The elephant was ever so pleased, but waited. Then the butterfly knocked again with her wing, a little louder, but still very gently. and said, does anyone live here please? Still the elephant never said anything because he was too happy to speak. A third time the elephant knocked, I mean, excuse me, a third time the butterfly knocked, this time quite loudly and asked, Is anyone at home? And this time the elephant said in a trembling voice, I am.

[24:18]

The butterfly peered in at the door and said, Who are you that live in this little house? And the elephant peeked out at him and answered, I am the elephant who does nothing all day. Oh, said the butterfly, and may I come in? Please do, the elephant said with a smile because he was very happy. So the butterfly just pushed the little door open with his wing and came in. The story, of course, could be told between two girls or between a girl and a boy, right, also.

[25:24]

In this case, he chose to have two he's to reduce the sexual element, I suppose. But, you know, you can do it however you want. So once upon a time, there were seven trees which lived along this curling road. And when the butterfly pushed the door with his wing and came into the elephant's little house, one of the trees said to one of the trees, I think it's going to rain soon. Is mystifying you, this business about the trees? Trees live along the road, right? This little path. Maybe it's too complicated to bring in the trees. Anyway, the trees have a discussion about these people. I mean, these two persons, this elephant and this butterfly, which pays a little space for you to realize that the elephant and butterfly are chatting up in the house there for a while while the trees are talking to each other.

[26:28]

Pretty soon it stopped raining and the elephant put his arm very gently around the butterfly. Now this butterfly is kind of a big butterfly. So an elephant puts his arm around it, but still very gently, sort of works. So the elephant very gently put his arm around the butterfly and said, do you love me a little? They've been together for a little while now, you see. And the butterfly smiled and said, no, I love you very much. And the elephant said, I'm so happy to think. I'm so happy. I think we ought to go for a walk together, you and I. For now the rain has stopped. and the curling road smells beautifully.

[27:35]

The butterfly said, yes, but where shall we go? Let's go away, down, down the curling road, where I've never been, the elephant said to the little butterfly. And the butterfly smiled and said, I'd love to go with you, way, away, down the curling road. Let's go out the little door of your house and down the steps together, shall we? So they go down the curling road and they wind up at the butterfly's house, right? And so now that the elephant knows where the butterfly lives, the elephant decides to go visit the butterfly every day. And they live happily ever after, visiting each other like that. So this is a story about the elephant and the butterfly, and about the elephant who sat in his house and did nothing all day.

[28:37]

So it's a kind of parallel story to the story of Ryokan, who sat in his house and did pretty much nothing all day. He wrote poems sometimes. That was just because no butterflies came to visit. But if butterflies came, he was totally distracted and went off with them. Reading the Avatamsaka Sutra about these practices of adapting, of serving and adapting to the needs of other beings, I read this sutra this winter and What these bodhisattva practices, these acts of service that the bodhisattvas do for beings are a little bit like the things which I used to run into in Christianity which I couldn't understand. The bodhisattvas do miraculous deeds, do things which we really have a lot of trouble understanding how we could possibly do.

[29:49]

I wouldn't have been interested in Buddhism reading those stories. Now, after reading about elephants and butterflies and ryokan, now I can understand a little bit about what they mean. Not understand, but I can stand to read about these miraculous deeds of service and selflessness. So the bodhisattva is in the process of serving other beings, like when they're sitting in their huts, okay? and they see people coming. This is right out of the sutra, okay? They're in their little huts and they see people coming. Except these people aren't thieves, exactly. These are not thieves. These are kind of like, just happen to be people who need some skin, some human skin. They're not going to steal it. They just want it. Bodhisattva sees them coming and somehow can tell that they want some skin. Bodhisattva gets very, very happy. because the bodhisattva can give them his or her skin.

[30:58]

So this is hard for us to understand, how we could give our skin to somebody, how we could have it removed and then hand it over, right? So these bodhisattvas must be so developed that when the skin's taken off, they don't get irritated. They don't say, well, I'm giving a gift, but it's painful, and I'd rather not, or Jesus is awful hard. They actually are so happy to give their skin away that it doesn't even hurt. They're really joyful. So that seems so far away from what I could ordinarily do. That wasn't the kind of story that originally inspired me. Now it inspires me in a different way, but I don't understand why, how that is. Except in a sense of, well, I just don't understand it, actually. And it looks like from your faces you don't understand it either. But there is that element in Buddhism which was not what attracted me.

[32:09]

the inconceivable dedication, the dedication of infinite potential, of boundlessness, to do things for beings that we hardly could even begin to imagine are possible to do for them. They actually say that all the Buddhas did that kind of stuff too. They not only did all the stuff which we think, gee, that would be a good idea, but they did stuff which we just cannot understand at all. But did they really do them? Actually, I don't know. Maybe nobody ever did those things, really.

[33:15]

Maybe it's just a way of talking to test us, to see if we're holding on to a fixed idea of what we can do. The funny thing is, not funny, but just popped in my head, is that We have heard of stories of people, ordinary people, you know, ordinary cruel people. We've heard of them doing things, cruel things, which are like we can barely imagine a human being would do to them, do to another human being, like peeling someone's skin off. We've heard of stories like this, right? But the other way around, that you peel your own skin off joyfully... This is not so easy to understand, or what that would mean. And I didn't think this through beforehand, but I'll just say that it may be that the depth of human cruelty and the severity of the hellish things that human beings do to each other

[34:31]

maybe is reflected by actually on the other side acts of unselfishness and kindness as intense and unbelievable as those are. Maybe that's what they're saying. I don't know. Anyway, you might think about it for a few million lifetimes. What do they mean when they talk about these unbelievable, inconceivable acts of kindness? and joy at helping beings and giving them whatever they want. I just saw a couple ideas just now. People can say something about what Zen is, which is fine, and then somebody else can say something that's different, which is fine.

[37:41]

I've been talking about outflows for a number of weeks here, and one Zen teacher, one of our ancestors, asked a teacher of his for some advice, and the teacher said, just end all outflows. So for that Zen teacher, the basic Buddhism in a nutshell for that Zen teacher was end leakage. And there's three kinds of leakage, leakage of views, leakage of feelings or emotions, and leakage of words. Leakage of views would mean, for example, would mean to hold to some idea about what Zen is.

[39:05]

Okay? If somebody says, Zen's like this, and then you hold to that, then you can hold to it while you hear it, and that's okay. As you hear it, somebody says, Zen is to go around and every uh... fifteen minutes say quats that's Zen or someone could say Zen is to follow your breathing or Zen is not to follow your breathing something like that or Zen is the best kind of Buddhism or Zen is the worst kind of Buddhism Zen is the Buddhism that's not Buddhism. That's what Zen is. And so on. You can say things like that about Zen. I like, which the one I like best is Zen is the Buddhism that's not Buddhism.

[40:16]

That's my favorite of the ones I just told you about. But to hold to that, would be an outflow, a leak, would harm me, would throw me actually, if I really held to it, it would throw me into a poisonous sea. To hold to a fixed view about what Zen is, to hold to a fixed view of what I am will also throw me into a fixed fix. To hold to a fixed view of what any of you are will also eventually throw me into a poisonous sea. Okay, so I'm going to tell you something about Zen now, okay? But this is not something for me or you to hold on to. I'm just talking about Zen. Now, I'll even talk about Soto-Zen. Strictly speaking, Soto Zen is not concerned with people following their breathing.

[41:22]

But to say that in Soto Zen you don't teach people to follow their breathing, that wouldn't be right either. You could also say Soto Zen is to teach people to follow their breathing. But that wouldn't be right to hold to that either. There's many schools of Buddhism and also not Buddhism that teach meditation or mindfulness of breathing. If you're mindful of your breathing, generally speaking, if you do it properly, it will be good for your health and also good for my health. It's a good thing to do. It's wholesome and healthy and calming. It's a little bit like elephant sitting in the house not doing anything all day. But another way you can look at Zen is just simply to absorb yourself in confidence in your Buddha nature.

[42:32]

Just be confident in your Buddha nature and not do anything Just be steadfast in totality of all sentient beings. Not Buddha nature in the sense of, oh, I got Buddha nature, so I'm okay. Not that kind of confidence. Or not even the confidence of I got Buddha nature, you got Buddha nature. Everybody's got to have Buddha nature, and that's good too. Not that one either. but confidence in a Buddha nature which is not. But that's the same as this infinite, unbounded dedication to the welfare of others. It's the same as having no limit on what you'll do to serve others and what you'll do to accommodate to others' needs.

[43:40]

Do you see that? Does that make sense? To absorb yourself in the oneness is the same as the deeds and intention to serve others. So if you're following your breathing, that's no problem following your breathing. If you're breathing, what's going to hurt, it's not going to hurt you to follow it. As a matter of fact, it's wholesome to follow it. But is following your breathing the same as being absorbed in the oneness of all life? It could be. Right? Because we all breathe the same air. But it's also possible to follow your breathing in a selfish way.

[44:45]

I'm here following my breathing for my benefit. And in fact, it probably is good for you, probably, maybe. It's better than some other things you could do anyway. In the early days of Tassajara one time, one of our students was in the zendo, and the zendo used to have lots of flies. We had screen doors, but somehow a lot of flies got in anyway. And I think, I'm not sure this is what it is, but she did some miraculous feat like she spent a whole period and let flies walk in her face without killing any of them. It was something like that, which... They have several different types, you know. There's big ones that walk on you, and they leave these tracks, you know.

[45:51]

You can feel their footprints. So pretty soon your face is dotted with little gooey footprints all over your face from the big ones. That's the big ones. The little ones go in your nose, in your ears, start going in between your lips, and also go in your eyes. You're supposed to keep your eyes open all the time, right? Your eyes should always remain open. You said that this morning, right? So the flies can go in your eyes if you keep them open. I don't know if she shut her eyes or not, but anyway, she didn't kill any of those flies, and she didn't move. And she told that to Chino Sensei, and he said, well, that's better than sleeping. Relatively speaking, you know, following your breathing... is better than sleeping, I'd say. It's certainly better than a lot of stuff, right? Better than killing flies.

[46:51]

It's pretty high-quality activity, actually. But if you follow your breathing or, you know, cut down on animal fats or, you know, do various other wholesome things like that. But you'd carry a self there to when you do it. Although it's wholesome, it's just wholesome delusion. But it is wholesome delusion. There's also unwholesome delusion. And wholesome delusion is better than unwholesome delusion, right? I'm not kidding. But it's still just delusion. On the other hand, picking your nose as an act of interconnectedness with all beings, as a way, as a possible means to connect, not just with one, but to connect with all beings, as a possible way to entertain and serve all living beings,

[48:10]

That act is not a delusion. That act is enlightenment. And to be willing to put on inconceivably wonderful shows for all sentient beings, to do whatever they need in order to entertain them or make them happy or joyful or encourage them in their practice or to relieve their suffering, anything that you would do to do that, including following your breathing, that's one way to talk about being unselfish. Or we have other names for it too, you know, meditating on the oneness of all life. Those kinds of activities are what we call Zen. But Zen is also to follow your breathing and be selfish and have that not work. That's also Zen. Do you understand?

[49:12]

To fall on your face is also Zen. To try to do something good and find out you're just doing it for yourself and have it backfire on you, that's Zen too. Because Zen is not something I want to have it be a fixed thing, right? And I don't switch it to the other things just to switch it to the other thing just to sort of make sure I'm not fixed. It's not like I switch from this over to that just to sort of show you that I can switch. It really is true that it could be both. So another way you can say what Zen is, is Zen is to meditate on the fact that this is Zen and its opposite is Zen. That's Zen. But don't hold on to that either. Okay? So I told you that's what Zen really is. And we can keep going and try to get clearer and clearer about what Zen is. And the clearer and more wonderful you understand what it is, then all the more clearly and more wonderfully you cannot hold to that view.

[50:15]

Or all the more clearly and wonderfully, if you do hold to that view, if you ever finally figure out what Zen was, and even if somebody told you, you're right, you got it, finally, then not to hold on to that, too. That would really be Zen. And then let go of that. In other words, practice suchness. Practice a way that's exactly what you think is Zen, and also a way where Zen isn't what you think it is. It's between those two. Then you avoid the leak of holding to fixed views if you can practice in that way. Another fixed view is not to even figure out what Zen is, just leave it alone, forget about it.

[51:25]

Don't be concerned with such things and don't go to any lectures or anything or read any books because if you don't, it's more likely that you will not adhere to any neat ideas about what Zen is, right? Just stay away from people who are saying interesting, clever things about what Zen is, about what emptiness is, about what Buddhism is, and you'll be less likely to grasp on some really neat version of it. But if you do that, then you're just grasping onto the idea that that's Zen, that avoiding hearing about those things which you might be suckered into and staying sort of out in the boonies where you don't hear any sophisticated versions of the Dharma, that that's Zen. There is that kind of Zen, too. You've heard about it, haven't you? Like some people, you know, of course Zen is just, you know, just to go work in the fields, right? Just go dig a hole and stick your head in it. That's really Zen. Or just, you know, go work in the kitchen and cut vegetables and not even know anything about Zen.

[52:31]

That's really Zen, right? Well, of course it is. It's really Zen. But to hold to that and to get upset when they move you out of the kitchen into the computer room Or when they move you out of the kitchen, the computer room, you say, oh, now, finally, I'm really practicing Zen because they're moving me to an area which I really don't think is Zen. So now I really am. And on and on. We want to get a hold of it. We don't want to live and we want to say, it is me or it isn't me. Those two we can handle. Those two we can grasp. But if we grasp it, either way, there's a leakage, and then it doesn't work very well. If I really want to do something to accommodate to your needs and serve you, serve you in the best possible way right now, what would it be?

[55:36]

Can anybody tell me? I mean for, yes. Really? Thank you. What a break. You mean I can just fold this, I can keep folding this thing up here? Is that serving you? Hey, how great. Would I be serving you if I let you? Okay. Did I say that? Right.

[56:45]

Well, before I said what I just said a minute ago, I was thinking to myself, what I was thinking I wanted to do What I wanted to do was I wanted to say something quite clever or profound or penetrating or at least really funny to sort of put a little bow on top of the talk. I wanted to do that. But then I thought, well, wait a minute. Why don't I just ask the other what the other would like? See, I like to give gifts to people. I like to do it, but what I want to give is not necessarily what they want.

[58:11]

So what I'm proposing is not so much that I go around and give what I think people want, but that I put a little bit more effort into trying to find out what they want. Okay? So in your case, you may not want particularly, according to your own feelings, want to enter into certain kinds of conversations. that they're into, but they may not want you to either. So I would suggest in a case like that, rather than sort of give up, rather than push yourself against what you like and enter into what you think they want, I would say number one is put a lot of effort into finding out whether they really do want you to enter into that conversation or not. Do you guys want me to start joking around at this level with you? I mean, you might not even be able to ask that question. It might be difficult to find out. But they may not want you to. Sometimes people are fooling around, and one of the people in the room isn't, and they really appreciate that one of them isn't.

[59:16]

And they say... Michael, you know, he doesn't really... It's not that he's holding himself separate from us and sort of on some trip to not enter into our lowly level of obnoxious talk. He's not acting holier than thou. He just kind of isn't into it, you know? He's cool. He's really cool. But he's not cool like on a trip to be cool above us. But if I hold myself above some conversation... And people are kind of like gossiping or something. You say, well, I'm not going to gossip. Then I think I'm putting myself above them. I'm not really their servant. I'm not really thinking of what's good for them. I'm just sort of thinking about how to maintain my image, right, of who I am and what I can do. You know, I don't wear pink socks and surfer bermudas. That's not me. So I don't get into that stuff. No, that's not so good.

[60:21]

It's more like, sort of forget about who I am and what my style is and try to find out what would be helpful to them. How do they see things? Where are they coming from? And that's not easy to find out, but make that effort. And you may find that in the process of making that effort, millions of new possibilities occur in terms of all kinds of things, and the conversation may be long gone. that you thought you had to participate in. That conversation might be over before you even find out what you need to find out. But through that effort, some other kind of thing may come out which is really satisfying to everybody. You're welcome. We are in

[61:14]

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