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Embracing Unity: Overcoming Illusion
The talk explores the profound teaching of non-duality in Zen Buddhism, focusing on the pervasive delusion of separation between self and others, which underlies much of human suffering. Emphasizing core Buddhist precepts, it elucidates the practice of not viewing beings as separate entities to naturally adhere to moral conduct such as not killing or stealing. By accepting and confronting this delusion, one fosters a deeper understanding of the inseparability of mind and external objects, illustrated through discussions on giving and the integration of one's existence with the universe.
Referenced Works and Themes:
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Bodhisattva Precepts:
Integral to Buddhist ethics, emphasizing moral conduct such as non-killing and non-stealing, achievable when the illusion of separation is overcome. -
Meditation Practices:
Discussed as essential for grounding oneself, facing delusions directly, settling into reality, and understanding the mind-nature unity. -
Three Wheels Purified (Zen Meal Chant):
Reflects on the inseparability of giver, receiver, and gift in the act of giving, signifying non-dualistic practice. -
Tar Baby Fable (Song of the South):
Utilized as an allegory to illustrate the futile attempts to escape from dualistic entanglements and the acceptance of total involvement in reality. -
Concept of Big Mind:
Conveying the idea of transcending ordinary perception, viewing nature and self as interconnected, rather than separate entities.
This session provides insights into how deeply engaging with one's feelings and relationships can reveal the truth of non-separation, fostering a life of compassion and unity.
AI Suggested Title: Embracing Unity: Overcoming Illusion
Side: A
Speaker: Tenshin Reb Anderson
Location: The Yoga Room
Additional text: Class 5 of 6
@AI-Vision_v003
So we just missed the best thing this class has had so far. But that's probably good. So if we, you know, if we see things as separate from ourselves, we experience pain. Our mind is agitated by that, by that externality. It's disturbed by the externality. And if we don't take good care of ourselves and practice patience with that the pain that we feel around external objects.
[01:03]
And we can easily become angry as some way to escape the pain, or we can try to develop attachments and other things to distract ourselves from the pain. And most of the Bodhisattva precepts, most of the precepts in Buddhism, I think could be seen as bearing on this issue of separation. So, if we feel separate and take care of the difficulty of that separation, we can We can practice not killing and not stealing. It's still hard though to practice them as long as we feel separate, but we have a chance to practice them if we take care of ourselves under the afflictive situation of feeling that people over there are separate from us.
[02:17]
When we actually understand that they're not, then it's no longer difficult to practice not killing and not stealing. Then it is spontaneous. You can't and you won't kill something that's not separate from you. If you think it's separate, then you might think you could kill it or could steal from it or it could steal from you or kill you. in which case you have to take good care of yourself if you want to practice not killing and not stealing. But until you realize that beings are not separate from you, practicing the precepts will be somewhat difficult, because not only are you in pain, but you think others are out there, and if you got rid of some people, it might make life easier, because you feel pain when you see them. You feel afraid when you see them.
[03:25]
You think they're going to hurt you. When you see that they're your life, you can't and won't kill them or steal from them or lie to them or misuse sexuality in relationship to them and so on. Again, if you... if I still see people as separate, I have to be careful and take good care of myself under that circumstance, under that afflicted circumstance, in order to practice the precepts fairly well. And practicing them fairly well helps me also be... take care of myself and take care of others so that I can practice them better.
[04:26]
And the more I practice them well, the more skillful I am at them, the more I take good care of myself, the closer I get to being able to see that it's a delusion that we're separate. So part of the practice is to take our seat in the middle of delusion, take our seat in the world where we feel we're separate, to sit there and find a way to take care of ourselves in that world. We've got that world. Most of us can see that superficial world where things are separate, where things arise and cease. Most of us can see that. At least we can see the world of separation. We may not be able to see arising and ceasing, but if you face the world of separation, If you can settle with that, you start to see how things arise and cease. You settle into that world. You take care of yourself lovingly. And then you're ready more and more to practice considering that there's no out there.
[05:42]
That everything you see is not other than your mind and that you have no mind other than what you see and what you hear. That you don't have a mind separate from all the things that are happening and all the things that are happening are not separate from your mind. But this teaching is for somebody who has accepted and admits to whatever extent she doesn't believe that kind of teaching. We admit our instinctive sense that I have a mind separate from objects. I have a mind separate from things, and things are separate from my mind. I admit that delusion. I accept that situation. I don't try to be other than that. And then I consider the teaching that I have no mind separate from
[06:47]
You. And there's no you separate from my mind. I have no mind separate from sounds and there's no sound separate from my mind. I have no tastes other than my mind and no mind other than my tastes. I have no mind separate from what I can touch and touchables are no other than my mind. There are no tangible things other than the mind. But, again, I say that, but that has to be grounded in whatever extent I feel that there is separation between my hand and what I touch. I have to accept that I feel that way, if I do. And I have problems about that, if I do. If it's pleasant, I have problems. If it's painful, if I have problems. And if it's neither pleasant or painful, I have problems.
[07:49]
If it's painful, I have problems usually of attachment to it. If it's... I mean, if it's painful, I have problems of trying to get rid of it. If it's pleasant, I have problems of attaching to it and trying to have more of it. If it's neutral, I have problems of confusion. If I accept that, then I'm accepting... the superficial aspect of my life. Now I can consider the profound. Namely, that first of all, nothing's separate from my mind and I have no mind separate from things. Also, that There is no external objects. It's another way to put it. None of the things I'm aware of are external to my mind. And my mind is not external to the things I'm aware of.
[08:58]
There cannot be awareness without the objects of awareness and there can't be objects of awareness without awareness. There's never such thing as objects of awareness without awareness. And you never can know of anything that's not an object of awareness. There are no such things that you have no evidence of. Well, there are things that you have no evidence of, but those are things you have no evidence of, and there's no such things. Everything you have evidence of is something you're aware of. To have no objects of thought is to be aware. First of all, one way to say it is to have no objects of thought, or when you understand that what you're aware of is not an object out there, to have no external objects of thought is to be aware of Buddha. That's one way to say it. When you have no objects of thought, you are aware of Buddha.
[10:06]
Or another way to put it is, when you have no objects of thought, you have Buddha's thought. Buddha does not have objects of thought. When you're mindful of things and you're paying attention to things, and they're not out there, you have the mindfulness of a Buddha. Buddha is aware of things, but they are not out there for the Buddha. When things are not out there for you, you have the mindfulness of a Buddha. When you think in such a way that you don't think things are external, you're thinking like a Buddha. And when you realize that there's no Buddha... Well, first of all, there's no things apart from your mind, You have the mindfulness of Buddha, but also there's no Buddha apart from your mind.
[11:08]
But also there's no mind apart from Buddha. Never is there a mind apart from Buddha. And never is there a Buddha apart from mind. But the more you meditate in this way, the closer you get to the point where you can't actually grasp anything out there. As long as you can grasp something out there, your mind is somewhat disturbed by grasping things as out there. When you can't grasp things as out there anymore, your mind is spontaneously pacified, peacefulized. tranquilized, serene. You can be somewhat serene and still have objects, but there's a little bit of disturbance if you still have objects of thought.
[12:16]
When there's no objects of thought, the mind, without even trying to do anything, the mind is stabilized. When the mind is stabilized in this way by having no objects, the mind is unified. There's no mind and objects, the mind is unified. The mind being unified, the mind is impartial. so
[13:59]
I'm not sure if I should go on or if I should stop now to see if you have some questions. Should I stop? Yes, Kate? It's hard for me to ask the question because I'm paying attention to you at the same time. But part of it is the external part, and part of it is... Things in my mind when I, well, part of it is the times when you make a connection with someone that's not, that's just here. So there's this kind of feeling. And part of it is times when I feel energy and give energy to people who aren't there. I mean, they are, but they're not, right? And so there's sort of this imagination, maybe. But at the same time, there's these times when there's a direct energy connection with people and times when it still could be just an external object that I'm thinking of.
[15:41]
Just because it's an energy feeling doesn't make it any less of an object. And I was wondering if you could comment on that, if I read myself at all, please. Yes, so I didn't understand. One case is what? Like right now, what's happening? Is something happening right now? In what you're talking about, is it happening right now? There's a lot of energy in the room. There's energy in the room that we're all sharing, yes. But I wasn't really speaking of that as much as, but, you know, we could. And one case was sort of this remote instance where I send or receive energy from another person, say, like my daughter.
[16:42]
When your daughter's not around, you send her energy? Right. Another more near example is just when you... So, again, in this case, you say your daughter's not around. So, is that a sick case where you feel like your daughter's something other than your mind? She's in your mind? And do you feel like your mind's not something other than your daughter? It's hard for you to hear that your mind is not other than your daughter? Yes. It's hard for you to hear that? Yeah. Well, there are times when it seems like she needs me to send her energy. I mean, I want to send her. I think of giving her strength, of sending her strength.
[17:45]
you know, she tells me she receives, too, so maybe we just have a vivid imaginations, but sort of internal and, it's internal and external, but you could say not as maybe strange as that, as just the time. Well, could we talk about this thing about you and your daughter? Okay. And that is that it sounds like you have some reservations about your daughter about your daughter it sounds like you have some kind of like preference for your daughter to be separate from you so you can send her something it kind of sounds like that you'd like to help your daughter but you can't figure out how you can help your daughter if she's not separate from you I kind of hear that that's interesting Like you have trouble hearing that your daughter's not something other than your mind and your mind's not something other than your daughter.
[18:50]
So if I say, if I suggest to you your daughter's not something other than your mind, you might say, well, that sounds kind of like, well, maybe, does that sound cold? Or does that sound like not respecting your daughter? Daughter's rights, either they get to be something separate from their mother, That's part of what they need to do, right? Is to be separate from their mothers. So let her be separate. Okay? For me to say you're not something separate from my mind, maybe that's like encroaching on your privacy. But what about that my mind's not separate from my daughter? Is that easier or harder to accept? That you don't have a mind separate from your daughter? Is that hard for you? Probably. Probably. And you want to do something good for your daughter. You want to help your daughter. You want to send your daughter positive energy.
[19:54]
I guess it's positive, right? So you want to give your daughter a gift. But how can we give gifts to our daughter if our daughters aren't separate from us? That kind of like blows our whole gift program. How can you give? But we want to give to our daughter, right? If we have one. So we got to keep her separate in order to give her presence. But we have to stay together in order to do the process at all. And you have to be together in order to do the process at all. As a matter of fact, if you're not together, you wouldn't even want to give her something. But in order to give her something, you have to separate her. But then when you separate her, then you got misery. And in your misery, you might forget about the gift program, but maybe not. might remember so part of Buddhism is about in when we're dealing with the superficial nature of our relationship where our daughters are separate from us we accept that and they're one nice things about having separate lives is that then we can give presents to our daughter I can give a present to my daughter if she's separate from me that's fun maybe
[21:11]
But she's not separate from me. I can't give her a present anymore. But that's not true. It's just that it's giving where there's no object. There's no receiver and giver and object separate. So at the beginning of our meal chant at Zen Center, we now have this thing about, you know, the three worlds, the three wheels are purified. And three wheels refer to the three aspects of the process of giving. where giver, receiver, and gift are inseparable. There is a process of giving. There is the appearance of giving, but there's no separation between the elements of the process. And we... we have some problem letting go of our separation from those who we love and want to help because if we let go of it, we might not be able to help them anymore.
[22:23]
So your example was you want to send something to your daughter. Well, that's fine. A lot of mothers do. A lot of fathers do, too. Well, fine. But what about Sending something to something that's not external to you. How would you do that? Hmm? Well, you wouldn't do it. That's part of what would be. You wouldn't be... You don't do the giving when something's not separate from you. Because you're not the giver separate from the receiver anymore, so you can't do it anymore. But giving can happen. But it doesn't happen because I do it to you. It happens because giving is the way things are. Giving is reality. But the reality of giving is not something, the real giving is not something that comes and goes.
[23:34]
It is actuality that there's giving. But it's not giving in the profound sense. Giving is not something that I do to you or you do to me. It's the way we actually are together is that we're giving. We're all giving all the time, ultimately. We're giving our whole life to everybody and everybody's giving their whole life to us. But they don't do it. That's just the way they are. But then we want to take credit for that so we can be good mothers, right? So then we have to separate our daughters so we can be the giver. But there's all kinds of problems in that. Because, you know, they don't like it. Sometimes you don't give it. And you have to do it. So practicing giving is a way to warm up.
[24:40]
Practicing giving in a dualistic sense is a way to warm up to being able to let go of the dualistic kind of giving and enter into this non-dual giving. Is everything okay? Okay. Bye. But they're happening at the same time. One world is you and your daughter are separate and you want to send something to your daughter. Another world is you and your daughter are not separate, your mind is not separate from your daughter, and also you don't have a mind that's separate from your daughter. You can't have a mind separate from your daughter. Ultimately. Now you know that's true. I mean, it's true for mothers, but it's also true between you and your neighbor, too.
[25:42]
You don't have a mind separate from your neighbor, either. But you might feel like, well, I can accept that for my neighbor because I'm, you know, being a good neighbor is not as important to me as being a good mother. As a matter of fact, I think I can be a good neighbor without thinking my neighbor is external. But I don't know if I can be a good mother without thinking my daughter is external. Maybe she needs me to think that way. I'm external. Okay, fine, go ahead, do it because she needs it. But you're already doing that. So we don't need to do it anymore, do we? We've already done that. We need to learn this new thing called no external daughters. Daughters are not out there. And we're not out there from our daughters. We have no life other than our daughters. Our daughters have no life other than us. We know the other side. And we know that daughters need to go through this process of thinking that they do have a life separate from us.
[26:42]
I saw this movie one time about... It was a Chinese movie. And, you know, they're living in crowded housing. And the daughter had seen some American movies or something. And she told... And her mother was in her room. And she said to her mother... She said, I want privacy here. You know, get out of my room. I want privacy. And her mother said, privacy? You want privacy from your mother? How can you have privacy from your mother? In America, we know, have your separate room. Then you got privacy from your mother. But in that, I could see that from a certain point of view, that it was really ridiculous that you have privacy from your mother. How can you have privacy from your mother? Well, you know how you can do it, but it's ridiculous. It's superficial anyway.
[27:50]
It's superficial. It's just a kind of like... It kind of looks like that if you think that way. And we do. So... But what about the other side? So how do I meditate on both of those, work with both of those truths, the truth that we're separate, the truth that you're out there, I think you're out there, I think I'm separate from you, I accept that, and I mean, that's instinctive, and I suffer because of that, and I have anxiety because of that, and I have to take care of myself being deluded in that way. And the more I take care of myself, the more I'm ready to try this other meditation on, which is that you and everything else is my true body.
[28:55]
Everything I meet is my true body. Everything I meet is not just my true body, but the true body of the Buddha. But if I'm not grounded in the false body, in the superficial body, I'm not going to be stable. I'm going to be like dreaming of meditating in this way. And I'll keep falling off my seat, which I have in the ordinary world of self and other. The ordinary world of suffering. Now, is there some other aspect of this you'd like to bring up? Did we accomplish something here? Enough for now? Okay, great. Because your question was complicated. Is there anything else you'd like to bring up now? Gwen and Zante and who else? And Michael? When you say it will be revealed to you, you said that earlier, do you mean that if I just concentrate on
[30:06]
myself, my mind, patience, compassion, that at some point I'll be ready to open up to this idea? Yeah, that's part of it. I find that if I intellectualize it too much, I get very confused. Right. So I'm telling you this, but I'm also saying, in some sense, you shouldn't listen to me until you're grounded in your instinctive ignorance and the consequences of it. So you have to face your suffering and anxiety and be settled in that and learn how to take care of yourself and be kind to yourself and patient with yourself and enthusiastic about being patient and generous with yourself and loving with yourself so that you can stand to be a person who doesn't understand completely. Because a person who doesn't understand completely is anxious. And it's hard to not try to run away from your anxiety, isn't it? Don't we have a hard time not running away from our anxiety?
[31:11]
And aren't there a lot of people who are kind of like trying to make a living off us running away from our anxiety? Yeah, so even without assistance we would have a hard time, but when people are also offering us lots of excuses and showing us examples of running away and teasing us for not running away if we ever didn't, It's hard not to run away. But if you don't run away, you have to take care of yourself. You are taking care of yourself. And if you take care of yourself, you might be able to not run away. Then when you're not running away anymore, when you're sitting still in the middle of your life, then you don't have to intellectualize what I'm saying. You just listen. And it'll just come in. But also, you'll just see it. You'll start to see it. Things will... You know, I'm talking to you. Here you are in this room. For some reason, this person is talking to you like this. You know? You just walk in the door and somebody starts saying this to you.
[32:14]
You didn't make me say this. You don't have to intellectualize this. I'm saying this stuff to you. You just sit there and listen. I'll do the... I'll say the complicated sentences. Your mind is not other... Buddha. Buddha is not other than your mind. You don't have to intellectualize that. You just have to hear it. But if you're not settling your body and mind and all that's entailed with that and taking care of yourself, it won't go all the way down into your marrow. It'll just sort of bounce around between your eyes and your glasses or something. Or whip around your head a little bit and go out your ear. But if you're taking good care of yourself, when you hear this kind of teaching, it goes in and goes down deeply into you and starts to, like, change your body. So, yeah, don't intellectualize this, but don't... Don't intellectualize anything.
[33:15]
Just take care of yourself and face what's happening. That's all you have to do. That's your job. And then the revealers... will go to work on you. You know? Things will come up to you and reveal, you know? People will come up to you and whisper secrets in your ears. Like, guess who I am? Take one guess. Want to take a guess? Huh? You get one guess. You want to take it or you want to save it for later? Okay. So, huh? Do you want me to tell you without using your guess up? I'm you. But you're still going to have that guess for later. You don't have to reveal things to yourself.
[34:22]
Things will reveal themselves to you. But you have to be there and be receptive, not just to the revelation, but to the non-revelation. You have to be receptive to your delusion. You have to be receptive to your pain. You have to be receptive to your smell and your touch and your taste. You have to be receptive to everything. And when you're receptive to everything, you're receptive to the good news, too. But if you're closing out part of your life, then you close out the truth. If you close one eye to your suffering, you close one eye to the truth. If you close both your eyes to your suffering, you close both your eyes to the truth. If you open both your eyes to your suffering, you open both your eyes to the truth. If you open your heart to your suffering, you open your heart to the truth. If you open your heart to your suffering, you open your heart to beauty. If you close your eyes to suffering, you close your eyes to beauty. Pretty much that's the way it works. Now, maybe there's some special thing where you can kind of like close your eyes a little bit to your suffering and still see a little bit of truth around the corner.
[35:29]
But it won't go in really deeply. You won't get the big sort of like cineramic view of it if you're having just a narrow view of your suffering. But if you have the big open view to your suffering, because you have a big loving view of your life and you're taking really good care of yourself, then you can take in a big truth. Big suffering, big truth. Big openness, big truth can come in. Is it hard to have big openness? Yes. Why is it hard? Because we have a habit of closeness, of selection, of trying to control what we experience. In other words, of not being generous, of not giving, of not feeling that we're giving and not feeling that we're receiving. in a generous way, of not being patient, of not being careful, of not being enthusiastic, of not being concentrated, these practices, by not being skillful in those areas, we're closed.
[36:31]
When we practice these practices, we open. That's your job in the dualistic world, to do those practices, to practice love in that way. Then you can But it really isn't doing anything in any cases, you know. Patience, giving, concentration, enthusiasm, all basically you're just present and not moving from the moment. And then the universe changes the moment in a kind of chaotic way. You don't have to change the world. You don't have to create chaos. That's being given to you. You have to be present for it. And you have to be present for it lovingly, otherwise you won't be able to be present for it. So that's a big job. And it's all the harder because you think you have an option or an alternative. So you have to also gently talk yourself out of the alternative. You have to gently tell and lovingly say, you know, you really, this person is talking to you now.
[37:37]
This is the person that's talking to you, not another one. Talk to this one. This is the pain you have right now. It's not good or bad. It's just the pain you have. You have to work with this one. Come on. This is the one. Really. Come on. Work with it. It'll be good. Don't you think so? I don't know. Well, let's discuss it then until you're convinced. Okay? Next is... Who was that next person? Santé. Well, I'm sitting here listening to you. I'm sitting here listening to you. Okay. And feeling increasingly anxious. And... You're opening to your anxiety. I am certainly open to my anxiety. Well, that's great. And I... Are you giving yourself any encouragement in that while you're opening to it and feeling more? There were two things I wanted to ask you about.
[38:40]
One is that, the encouragement. What... When you talk about being good to yourself, you're talking about practicing basically sitting with discomfort, sitting with whatever it is, just being present. That is what you're referring to. Yes, and to amplify what it means to just be present, it is to be generous. It is to be gentle. It is to be patient. It is to be joyful to be able to do this practice. So it is just to be present, but this present includes all these attractive qualities, these skillful qualities. It isn't just dull, stupid presence. It's a very vivid, vital, happy, joyful, energetic presence, because that's life, right? Yes. That's how to take care of yourself as you're open to anxiety.
[39:41]
Yes. When I am feeling anxious but not aware of it, I feel really bad. And sometimes I do feel really bad because I'm not facing my anxiety. And then when I stop and say, well, where is it? Okay. Stop running away. Where is it? Come on. Okay. There it is. It's anxiety, but when I'm not running away from it, I feel much better than when I'm running away from it. Somehow I kind of know when I'm running away from it because I feel like a phony. I'd rather be, you know, an authentic sufferer than a phony... I don't know what you call that. Somebody who's not being himself. So there's some great joy and solace in being really a deluded person. rather than being a deluded person who's pretending that she's not and feeling even worse because she's compounding delusion on top of delusion rather than say, OK, I'm deluded.
[40:47]
I got basic delusion. I'm going to work with basic delusion rather than derivative delusion. That's what my wife always wants. She wants the basic delusion. She hates the derivative stuff. she can work with basic delusion but you know some of us are kinda like pretty witty and pretty smart and we can get way off into the kind of derivative derivations of our delusion that nobody can follow you know it's like what are you doing out there you know it just nobody can relate to it you were just spinning off in all these elaborations of our delusion and it's like saying all this stuff which is it's not exactly false it's just not It's just derivative rather than just saying, okay, I'm suffering. I'm in pain, you know. That hurt. I'm angry. This is the stuff to deal with. We got the basic stuff. Let's work with it. But in a loving way.
[41:50]
Then we will be encouraged to do more of that kind of work. And it is work. It's going down into the green dragon's cave and facing the dragon. And it's difficult, but it feels much better than being... And now that... But we're with other people then, you know? Our derivative sufferings are kind of like, you know, our own individual way of running away, you know? But our basic suffering, we're very close to each other. We all have basically the same type. I find a real uniformity in basic delusion among people. It's kind of nice, it's kind of lawful, the way we're basically off in our perceptions. But our derivations are kind of, you know, some people can't even know what we're talking about. It's called getting heady for some people, or it's called getting indulgent for other people, you know.
[42:52]
Just take it straight. But take care of yourself when you're taking it straight. And find joy in taking it straight because you're doing good work. You're doing the work that all Buddhas have done and are encouraging you to do with these practices of presence, of giving, of precepts, of patience, of enthusiasm and concentration. All these practices of compassion are being conveyed to you by the Buddhas to help you face your life and have the truth, the profound truth, revealed to you. To face your superficial life so that the profound can be revealed. I think one of the things that I'm doing, is doing tonight, is really trying really hard to grasp it, to grasp the concept, to take hold of the
[43:57]
Yes. You were trying to grasp the concept of mind being not a concept. So why don't you stick with the basic anxiety, and then when you hear this teaching that there's no objects of thought, Okay? Just stay with the basic anxiety. And don't, and try, which you can't avoid. And then let this teaching anyway be not out there. And you say, yeah, but then I might not get it. Yes. In this case, be willing to not get it. And then you got it. In this particular case, being willing not to get this teaching, you've got it. Because that's what the teaching is saying, is be willing not to get something. Being willing to not get something is the same as nothing separate from your mind.
[45:15]
So the way you test whether you're willing to accept this teaching is whether you would accept not even being able to get it. So do you accept not being able to get this teaching? Do I accept you not being able to get this teaching? Then we're getting it. Isn't that funny? That's a particular characteristic of this teaching. It's about non-attachment, so when you can't get it, you've got it. And a particular thing about this teaching is you don't seek it. And when you stop seeking to get this teaching, you have realized the teaching. It is in you when you stop trying to seek it, because that's what the teaching is, is not seeking. But we have another teaching, right? That we can get and seek. Well, fine. That's a teaching of the regular world. You've already got that one.
[46:17]
You've learned it already. Your master's at it. So that's fine. What you need to do now with that one is just let it keep going. It's going to keep going. And try to just face what that world's like. The world where you seek things and got things. Don't try to get rid of that because that's just more the same. Or if you do try to get rid of it, fine, it's just more of the same. You take your seat in that world, and in taking your seat in that world, then you hear the teaching of don't seek anything, don't get anything, don't attach to anything, and actually don't. Including that. And now you're learning something new. Michael? Michael? You're bringing up that there's nothing out there. It's similar to the same thoughts that you're talking about when you say there's no out there. The way I view their environment and nature, after all the contemplation, have been that there is no nature out there, that there's no separation between nature
[47:29]
myself in the trees of the oceans and the seas. It's in me, it's out of me, it's in me, it's out of me. Right. It's not that necessarily I'm one with nature because then I come back and think about who I am. I'm this little container in itself that's separate from nature. So the way to get to this point of thinking that there's no separateness between myself and nature is that I think that I have to kind of... I guess I would call it, but I would think it was like, it's like a Buddha nature. It's not really the way I see myself as a human being in a way, but it's a different kind of expansive way. And that it's not that I have an in here, that my mind is necessarily the mind that's within my skull, it's some other type of one. It's a bigger mind somehow. It's a nature mind, I must recall. And that's what I guess, but I'm kind of afraid that somehow I'm, that that could but I'm going down some path trying to get to an attachment with that, even that thought, that there's a, that there's this bigger mind.
[48:36]
Yeah, well, why don't you just accept that you might be going down, you might be just doing the same thing with this big mind thing that you do with everything else. Why don't you accept that? The big mind would be perfectly willing to accept that you're doing the same thing with the big mind that you do with everything else. I mean, you're trying to make the big mind into something out there that you can know about and think about and talk about. So you're doing the same thing again with that. Big mind is perfectly willing for you to go ahead and do that. But big mind would also let you admit that you're doing the same thing with the big mind that you do with everything else. And also what you do with everything else is you don't want to do that with the big mind. Do you? I think that it's an out there. Hey, you don't want to make it out there, do you? Right? Because it's so wonderful. Not this. Out there or in here. Yes. But that you like to think about it. Don't you? I get caught up in thinking about it, sir.
[49:41]
Yeah. So go right ahead and get caught up thinking about it. That's part... Because you do. But don't try to not get caught up in thinking about it because that's just more getting caught up in it. Can you believe that? You know that story that, not story, but it's kind of a story, but it's also like a cartoon that I watched when I was a kid. It was a movie called The Song of the South. And one of the, it was a motion picture, but also had cartoons inside of it. And the cartoons had these Br'er Fox, Br'er Rabbit, and Br'er Bear. Do you know that story, Michael? How old are you? Huh? Yeah, you have to be either a little kid who's been taken back to the movie by your older parent, or be a little older. This is like a 50s movie. Okay, so anyway, there's this cartoon of these Br'er Fox, Br'er Bear, and Br'er Rabbit.
[50:42]
Okay, now Br'er Fox, Br'er Bear is not as smart as Br'er Fox in certain ways, and Br'er Rabbit's a little bit smarter, in some ways than either the bear or the fox but he has his problems he's a little bit deluded so anyway they're always trying to catch him bear fox and bear bear always trying to catch bear rabbit and mutilate him and then eat him or anyway just eat him but anyway they want to catch him and he and they have a hard time catching him so one of my favorite stories is they think of they make this tar baby They make a baby out of tar. And then they put it out in a path where they know a Brer Rabbit's going to come walking by. They put it out near Brer Rabbit's house. So he comes walking by and he says to the Tar Baby, he says, Tar Baby's like a big mine. You say hi to Tar Baby, what does Tar Baby say? Nothing.
[51:42]
Hi, big mine. Hi, nature. Hi, ocean. Hi, ocean. He says, hi, Tar Baby, and Tar Baby doesn't say anything. He says, hey, I said something to you. I'm talking to you. Tar Baby doesn't say anything. How are you? Answer my question, Tar Baby doesn't say anything. So he says, hey, you, and he pokes him. The rabbit pokes Tar Baby and gets his finger stuck in the Tar Baby. He pushes again, gets a hand stuck in the Tar Baby. Then he takes his hand to try to extricate himself from Tar Baby and gets both hands caught in it. Then he uses his feet to get extricated from the tar baby and he gets his feet caught in it. Then he uses his head to try to get out of it. So pretty soon he's entirely entangled in the tar baby. It's like that. You try to get out of attaching or thinking about things and you need to get deeper into it. But that's okay. Get deeper into it. And if you're completely deeply into it, completely deeply into it,
[52:46]
Then guess what? Guess what? Huh? You're a tar baby. And guess what? Huh? You're a tar baby rabbit. And guess what? That's where you already are. You're already completely into it. You already can't get out of it. No matter what you do to try to get out of it, You get deeper into it. But that's what you're already doing. You've been trying to get out of it by getting deeper into it for quite a while now. So now you're into it. So why don't you like admit you're into it? Like really admit you're into it. Like, you know, and it's not that you're worse than anybody else. You're not like the worst person on the block at this. You're ordinary. We're ordinary. Everybody is like totally ordinarily into it. Nobody's kind of like 80% into it. And then some other people are 99% into it. And some people are 110%. Everybody's basically 100% into it.
[53:48]
And everything you do, [...] basically just is more of the same. However, some things you do... are called skillful. And the skillful things you do, which are pretty much the same, are the things that let you hear that you're totally deluded without fighting back. So, you people somehow are sitting here and being told by somebody that you're totally deluded and you're not storming out of here. You're totally like, you know, re-entangling yourself in dualistic thinking constantly, and you're sitting here listening to that. That's because you've done some skillful things in this dualistic world. So nature... Nature is what you really are, and it completely includes you.
[54:53]
But if you think about that, That's exactly what you said nature wasn't. If you think about this idea of this nature that's not separate from you, that's not in you or out of you. But you can't help but do that. We co-opt everything by this dualistic thinking. Dualistic thinking has nothing it can't grasp. Okay? Nothing can escape it. But there are There is a reality that's so profound that it's not a thing. And that can't be grasped by it. But it isn't a thing. It's not a thing. It's not out there. It's not in here. And we can't get it. And we can't get away from it. So don't worry about being totally caught up in it. Be willing to be totally caught up in it. And then you've like...
[55:55]
You're on the ground now. And stay there. Because that's where you are anyway. You're completely an ordinary human being. And you have no leverage on that. And be willing to be like that. And then you're all set. You know, you've just been, you're honestly who you are. But that's not easy to be who you are. So you have to do these practices to assist yourself And you have to accept Buddhist compassion so you can stand to be an ordinary person, which is really hard. That gives us the briar patch, right? Huh? The briar patch is the world of suffering that we just go ahead and jump out into and get on our way. Yeah, another part of the story is after they catch him, they want to, like, you know, they wonder what to do with him. So the bear says, I want to knock his head off.
[56:57]
And the rabbit, the fox isn't sure that's a good idea. He thinks something more, something else might be better. But the rabbit says, yeah, please, please knock my head off. Please whack it off. But please, whatever you do, don't throw me into the buyer patch. So I think, after a while I think, well, maybe we should throw him in the buyer patch rather than knocking his head off or cooking him. Because he seems to be so afraid of being thrown in the briar patch. So then they throw him in the briar patch. And he screams and he hollers, excruciating, horrible expressions of pain. And then it's quiet. And then he says, then you hear him singing. Born and raised in a briar patch, briar patch. Yeah.
[58:04]
It's funny. When you actually get there, it's funny. You see, it's actually funny. It's kind of funny. It's kind of like It's a joke. This, you know, this separation thing. But when you don't see it's a joke, you think it's true. And when you think it's true, it's not a joke. It's deadly serious. It is a source of all the bad things. But when you see that it's an illusion, you don't grasp it, and then it's not a bad thing. It's not bad. Dualistic thinking is not bad unless you don't remember that it's dualistic thinking and that it's wacko. When you see it for what it is, it's cute. The world's lovely. The world's beautiful. Basically, when you see how it really is, and how it really is, is that it's not the way we think it is. So, Let's see.
[59:09]
Was there anybody else in the last round? Is that it? So then Roy and Martin. Roy and Martin. In terms of this discussion of learning how one might help someone who you're very close to who's suffering a lot from a loss, How do you help someone who is very close to you that's suffering from a loss? Well, I guess I would get close to them and then don't do anything. And if as I got close to them, they tried to push me away, I guess I would be pushed away. I would be close to being pushed away.
[60:12]
And then I would be close in that way, and I wouldn't do anything. Now, in not doing anything, you know, I might become, my voice might start, you know, a voice might come out of my mouth, a sound might be made, but I wouldn't be thinking of it as me doing something. I'd be mostly working on being close to the person in whatever way that made sense. And by being close, when they move to the right, that would have a certain effect. When they move to the left, it would have a different effect. If they stand up, that would have a different effect. You know, everything they do since I'm close to them, I would respond to. You know, when they go like this, my eyes would blink. When they say, when they put a hamburger near my face, I might salivate and say, yeah, but I don't eat hamburger.
[61:18]
But I wouldn't be like going there to tell them I didn't eat hamburger. I would just say that because they offered me a hamburger. So, you know, in intimacy, There will be a lot of responses, but you won't be doing those responses. You won't be going there to do this thing. But you will be doing... Things will be happening all the time in your closeness to them. And that will be very helpful to them. Because then they also can join that closeness with themselves and do nothing. And in that way, they will be close to the loss and not do anything. And if they can be close to the loss and not do anything, it will be revealed to them that they haven't lost anything.
[62:21]
But we can't skip over to we haven't lost anything until we are close to we have lost something. But sometimes we can't figure out how to be close to we've lost something. So some person can help come to us and be with us and let us be the way we are and let themselves be the way he is. And then we both can be the way we are which is that one of us thinks we've lost something. And in that accepting completely that we feel I've lost that I think I've lost something and being a total car baby of something lost I can see something else, another truth, which is that I haven't lost anything, and I haven't gained anything, and I never lost anything, and I never gained anything. And this loss is the opportunity for me to realize that, and I'm very grateful to the whole situation. I saw this movie recently.
[63:34]
My daughter gave me a video. It's called Analyze This. Huh? Sort of funny. I was thinking this one scene. This gangster, you know, told one of his assistants, he says, you know, he said, I got this friend. And, you know, he needs to see a doctor. And... But, you know, I don't want you to tell anybody. He doesn't want anybody to know about this. But he wants to see this doctor. So would you get me a doctor for my friend? And his friend says, sure, I'll get you a doctor. But could I ask you one question? And he says, yeah, what is it? He said, am I your friend, the one you're talking about? Martin. Are you the guy who raised his hand a while ago, who was sitting over there?
[64:37]
Yeah, okay. In the last week, I've had a shift, which I really feel good about. And I have more patience with myself and with interacting with people. It kind of just happens on its own. And I really feel good about it. Yeah. Congratulations. That's terrific. Would you like to sit quietly for a while to conclude our evening? If there's no burning questions left. Is that okay? Or do you want anybody to have some other questions? Terry? A question or comment. Just two weeks ago, you kind of led us toward thinking about how it's difficult to have compassion for people we have trouble with. And that encouraged me to try to connect with someone better, somebody that I've had difficulties with.
[65:44]
And I was just amazed. It seems like this ties in with what we're talking about tonight as far as self and others. I think that working toward overcoming difficulties with other people, arriving at some harmony and understanding is really a powerful way of arriving at an acceptance of oneness with the world around us. But before you arrive at acceptance of oneness, you're accepting the two-ness, because you're getting close to the problem you're having. So first you accept the two-ness and compassion is the way you get close to your feelings that are separate from this person. Compassion is the way you get close to the hard feelings you have with the person. And by getting close to them and opening to that problem and not running away from that problem or blaming the other person or whatever or blaming yourself, by getting close to that difficulty you have with the person,
[66:52]
That's the ground in which you also open to that it isn't really another person. It's your angel who has come to help you realize the ultimate truth. Who temporarily had the name enemy or whatever. Okay? Do you want to stand up for a second and then sit down for a little while?
[67:20]
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