This instruction that I introduced at the beginning of the week from the first ancestor of Chinese Zen, who we call Bodhidharma, comes from a conversation he had with his first disciple. And this story is, in this particular case, is cited in the Treasury of True Dharma Eyes by the ancestor Dogen Zenji called Expounding Mind and Expounding Nature. So the ancestor says to his disciple, the second ancestor, if you just let external

[01:12]

involvements cease and have no panting or gasping in your mind, your mind will be like walls and you will be able to enter the way. So here, the way they put it is, if you can let go of external involvements, cease external involvements and have no panting or gasping in your mind, that's one way to read it. The other is, if you can let go of external involvements or let external involvements cease, there will be no gasping or panting in your mind and you'll be able to enter the Buddha way. I think either way is okay. But again, he's saying let go of external involvements. So we're involved, we are involved beings,

[02:23]

we are involved beings, we are dependent beings, we depend on everything we're involved with, but looking at our involvements as external, we're supposed to let go of the external side of it. You're supposed to let go of the people who are external to you, which is actually nobody. You just have to let go of your attitude that other people are separate from you, which is really hard. So he gave this instruction to the second ancestor who was apparently a very sincere disciple, and so Dogen says, �The second ancestor makes various efforts to expound mind and expound nature, but always fails

[03:29]

to experience the state.� And it says, �One day suddenly he attains reflection, and the word I've heard is that the time between hearing this instruction and the day when he understood was seven years.� So for seven years he made various efforts to expound mind and to expound nature, and he did this with his teacher. He would go to his teacher and try to express his understanding of mind and nature, his understanding of this instruction, his understanding of how to let go of external involvements. So they had a lot of conversations

[04:38]

probably during that time. We're not told particularly what they were. It says that later Dogen says that Bodhidharma wouldn't really tell him how to do this, he would just try to express to Bodhidharma his understanding of how to let go of external involvements, and Bodhidharma would point out where he was off, but he wouldn't exactly tell him how to be on. Part of the reason for that is that to tell him how to be on before he understands how to let go of external involvements, he would turn the instructions of how to be on

[05:40]

into another external involvement. So he understands, so then he goes to the Bodhidharma and he says, this time for the first time your disciple has let involvements cease. And Bodhidharma says, knowing, actually understanding the second ancestor, he has already attained it. He does not examine him closely, he just says, you haven't slipped into nihilism, have you? And the second ancestor says, no. And Bodhidharma says in this translation, what is your situation?

[06:43]

Other translations say, prove it, prove that you haven't slipped into nihilism. And the second ancestor says, I'm always clearly aware and no words reach it. And Bodhidharma says, this is just the substance of mind transmitted by Buddhas and ancestors of the past. Now you have it, so take care of it well. So some of you, when you first heard the instruction cease all involvements, you might have thought that means you would act like nothing mattered. Like if you hear about global warming that you wouldn't care, because after all global warming as an external

[07:51]

thing you're not involved with. And the ancestors do not want you to be involved in global warming as an external thing, they want you to cease involvement with it as external. But that doesn't mean they don't want you to devote your energies to finding some way to stop contributing to it. If you would say, oh, I'm not going to be involved with it because I see it as external, and then stop being concerned, that would be nihilism. That would be like, doesn't matter. And not mattering is the Buddha way, not caring is the Buddha way. I'm cool, you know, it's all going to be gone soon anyway, so what? This kind of thing. Not following through on a

[08:52]

commitment to practice the precepts of embracing and sustaining all beings, for example. Not following the precept of embracing and sustaining all the details of practice, not embracing and sustaining all kinds of wholesome activities, because I'm ceasing all involvements with external things. That would be nihilism. So Bodhidharma is checking to see, now that the second ancestor has ceased involvements, he hasn't slipped into nihilism, has he? And he says, no, I haven't. He says, prove it, and he says, I'm always clearly aware and no words reach it. But no words reach it doesn't mean that from this place he's not committed to practicing ethics and devotion to all beings. In the kitchen now, I think there's a piece of calligraphy which looks

[10:00]

like it's done by, it looks like they say Daigaku on there, yeah, so it says Memitsu no Kafu, right? No, it actually says Memitsu Kafu, and Mem means cotton, and Mitsu means intimate, so that together they mean, you know, intimate detailed attention. And Kafu means, Ka means family or house, and Fu means wind. So, but often the wind of the house means the style of the house, and the house that we're referring to in this case is the house of Soto Zen, or the house of the Buddha. So one of the characteristics of the house of the Buddha is minute attention to details.

[11:01]

And someone asked me during this visit, they said that they were a little worried that the attention to forms here at Tassajara, that there's some danger that you become attached to them. And I said that's right, there is a danger that we will become attached to the forms of the practice in this valley, especially if we are practicing minute attention to the details of the forms. For example, there's like now, I just went to the shop for a little while and I went in there and I didn't look very carefully, but I was not shocked by how tidy it is. But I have a couple of times in my recent visits to Tassajara, I've gone to the shop and I was actually shocked how tidy it was, because sometimes the shops at Zen Center are not tidy. But I have sometimes gone into the shop and

[12:19]

find it very tidy. Sometimes the kitchen is very clean and peaceful too. Sometimes the Zen is very clean and peaceful. This cleanliness and peacefulness is due to some people making an effort to give minute attention to details, otherwise some little details are floating around in the room, unattended to. But in taking care of the details of the office, the bathhouse, the pool, the shop, the zendo, the kitchen, bag lunch, the paths, the trucks, in taking care of these, giving minute attention to details, it's possible to get attached to these things. And then if you get attached to them, well,

[13:19]

lots of disharmony can arise, like you can start hating the people who are not giving minute attention to detail, or you can be proud of yourself for giving minute attention to details, or you can even start hating the people who are giving minute attention to details. Oh, they think they're so good! So, you know, or you can hate them for being attached, they're attached to the minute attention to details, so then you're attached to them being attached, you know. But the thing about these, and this is a danger, that the whole monastery could get hung up on the details, or most of the people in the monastery can get very picky and nasty by practicing minute attention to details. What we're supposed to be able to learn how to do, which the Buddha can do, is pay minute attention to details without being involved in externals. You just pay attention to details because that's what

[14:28]

you are, it's just completely natural, it's not some trip you're on. And the people who are not paying attention to details are just those who don't realize yet that what they are really is paying attention to details, that's what people are. But some people don't realize it. But when you don't get involved in externals, those who don't yet realize it are not external to you, so you don't hate them or think you're better than them. You're devoted to all beings because all beings are internal to you. And you use attention to details to exercise your devotion. But the good news is that there's two dangers. One danger is if you pay attention to details you can get hung up on them, detached to them, you can get prideful, or you could also start hating yourself if you're

[15:31]

not paying attention to details. That would be another possibility. So lots of disharmony can arise if we attach, if we make these details external. The other way is in order to avoid attaching to the details, don't give minute attention to details. And if you don't, then you won't get so attached to paying minute attention to details. So you'll be free of that, all those problems that you get when you attach to minute attention to details. However, your tendency to attach to everything will just be latent, you know, and as soon as you start paying attention to details, if you haven't got over that, it'll just come out and express itself. So we generally think it's better, we being me, generally think it's better to devote attention to details and then see if we have attachment to it. Then if we do, then we can work together. That's where the second

[16:37]

ancestor started to give attention to details and then he brought it to Bodhidharma and they worked together. The teacher, no, no, you're attaching to that, or you're not caring enough, you're caring too much, you're caring too little, you're caring too much, you're giving too much attention to details, you're giving too little attention to details. So we do pay attention to details and we use that attention, that minute careful attention, as a way to test, to see if we're making any of these details, any of the things, living and non-living things in this valley, making any of them, treating them like they're external. Now how does this relate, for example, to Tai Chi? Tai Chi is basically nothing but details, nothing but forms. And then we learn the forms and learn the forms and learn the forms

[17:39]

and as you learn the forms better and better, then you can get more and more minute about the little tiny details. Now this week we're just trying to learn the basics of 20 parts to the first form in the thing. We're approximating the form. If we can get that, then we could spend many years getting more and more and more minute. And when we got all the minutiae, then the teacher could help us see if we're attached to any of it. And are we proud? And do we think we're better than the people who have not learned these forms? Do the teachers think they're better than the students? All that. So in that way, the forms of this, it's actually not really Tai Chi, right? It's Tai Yi. Tai Yi is the name of the form. This form of practice, which has all these details and all

[18:40]

these forms and more or less inexhaustible minutiae to take care of, it's an opportunity to see there too, can we do this with no sense that these forms are external, that the people we're practicing with are external? And of course, when we first start doing it, there are opportunities to think that they are external. So there's 20 different parts that we're learning, and we've maybe noticed that we're trying to get 20 parts, which aren't us. We leave the valley with 20 parts that we got. So then we realize, oh, yeah, I wasn't practicing Bodhidharma taught, but you can see that you weren't. Whereas before you start practicing, you don't realize how thoroughly dualistic your mind is. So the attention to details are ways that we can bring this

[19:46]

dualistic attitude out in front. And as I often quote something about Jesus, where he said, that which stays in the back will destroy you. That which you bring out in front will liberate you. It's a basic principle of the Buddha way. Bring all stuff out in front, everything, good stuff, unskillful stuff, bring it out in front. And no matter what it is, being out in front where you can expound it and study it, you can become liberated. But even good things in the back, that you don't know about, will destroy you and your friends. Another thing which Dogen says in commenting on this case, which, I know it's kind of sweet, he says,

[20:48]

that the Buddha way, at the time of the first establishment of the intention to practice the Buddha way, is the Buddha way. The Buddha way, at the time of the first establishment of the will to practice the Buddha way, is the Buddha way. At the time of realizing the correct state of truth, it is the Buddha way. The beginning, the middle and the end are each the Buddha way. It is like someone walking 1,000 miles. The first step is the first step in a thousand miles. The

[22:12]

thousandth step is one step in a thousand miles. The millionth step is one step in a thousand miles. He didn't say that part, I added that. Though the first step and the thousand step and the millionth step are different, the thousand miles are the same. Now you hear about this difficult instruction, cease all external involvements, and I'm not kidding. Stop thinking that the universe is external to you. Stop thinking that everybody you meet is external to you. Give that up. Be free of any kind of construction and constriction in your mind. Have a mind like a wall and enter the Buddha

[23:17]

way. This is a difficult instruction. From the first moment you want to practice it, it's the Buddha way. And if you ever realize this practice, that would be the Buddha way too. If you don't want to practice the Buddha way, I don't know what to say about that. I almost feel like saying that's not the Buddha way. Not wanting to practice the Buddha way is not the Buddha way. But the Buddha way also completely embraces and sustains you while you don't want to practice the Buddha way. So I guess that's the Buddha way too. You can't get away from it. You can just pretend like you don't want to practice it. That's probably enough for starters. Anything you want to bring up?

[24:44]

Yes, Carter? One of the concepts that I've struggled with for many years is this concept of giving up externality. When you're faced with an opponent in karate, or perhaps maybe a sword, or global warming, the martial arts continually train and teach you to be calm and to not fixate on the sword, not fixate on the opponent, not fixate on global warming, even though you may be facing certain death. And I think the teacher was Takum Sopa, who wrote these in letters to swordmasters of the time, that when you fixate on the blade as it's coming to strike you, your mind will be fixed and you won't

[25:55]

do the proper jutsu, you'll be struck down. And he was writing that Zazen is the same way. Don't fixate on these things, otherwise you will be struck down just as with a sword. And I guess this week I'm realizing the truth of that, that all of my training in karate is coming around to this idea of, you know, when you're sparring and you know you're against a world champion level sparring person, you know, I'm not a big person, I may be going against someone who's 300 pounds, I'm very flexible, I'm very strong, and I'm certain to get hurt. If I fixate on that, then I will get hurt. If I don't, if I let it go, and do my technique to train them, generally I'm comfortable. I'm okay.

[26:58]

So it's an interesting, I guess, insight that I've had, that I'm sitting Zazen, I'm not sparring, I'm just dealing with a sword, dealing with global warming. If we take that insight, and look at it calmly, and approach it, we will have a way, be it a block or a kick, of designing a new car, or turning off the lights. Debrina? Can you turn the lights off now, please? Thank you. Yes? Well, it strikes me that there's a two-proof, you know, between the ultimate and the sword.

[28:04]

In reality, it would be, like in the realm of non-duality. But if you were practicing karate here in Zazen, or whatever, at first you might take, like, a couple of tensions, you know, and then let it go, and then come back and do tensions. Is that true? I didn't quite understand your question. Yeah. When you first come to, you're born seeing things as external. Well, since that's our basic habit, so when we approach Buddhism, we make Buddhism into a fixed thing, an external thing. Making something fixed is similar to external. In other words, it's out there on its own.

[29:08]

It's not like, we don't usually recognize as we go to Buddhism, that Buddhism is there because our mind creates it. So, mostly we come to the Buddha way not already understanding it, and making it and the teachers and the teaching and the other practitioners as out there separate from ourselves. And then we learn the forms, usually in that state of not correct understanding. But we learn the forms, perhaps quite correctly, maybe in minute detail. But even before we get to minute detail, it may be possible for our friends and teachers, and even for ourselves, to notice that we're approaching the practice as being separate from us. And we may notice that because of that, we suffer. Because of that, we're afraid. We're afraid of the schedule, we're afraid of the forms, we're afraid of the other people we're practicing with, and so on.

[30:09]

So we notice, we're learning the forms, and the forms help us realize what the problem is. Then, from there, we gradually start to study, is there some way to work with these forms without polarizing, without separating from them? Is there some way to find out that they're really telling us who we are? And then sometimes we do feel a moment when we're doing the forms, but it's not like what we say, it's not like the things reflected in the mirror and their reflection. It's not like things and their reflection. It's not like the moon and the water. We maybe realize that. And then we have a chance to have a conversation with somebody to see if they agree that we've obtained that state.

[31:10]

And see if we can have that conversation without, again, the person we're talking to turning into something out there. But if we tried to learn something while still believing that something's external and avoid the externality, that would be at that stage like not approaching the thing. If we still thought that things were external, and then we were going to not get involved with external things, and we went according with that understanding of what not involved with external meant, we might stay away from the form. So we sort of have to learn the forms while still thinking of them as external. In other words, we have to learn the forms and realize we're not able to do this instruction yet.

[32:11]

But learn the forms to realize this instruction. Learn the forms to help enter the Buddha way. Even though we understand in some sense that what we're doing is not correct. Still, the first step in practicing even before you realize the correct understanding is also the Buddha way. So our early stages and our later stages are not external to each other in this teaching. Yes, Craig? I heard, allow all external involvements to cease. I heard, cease all external involvements. And also remember, the other reading of this, breathe through externality. Don't take it so seriously. Relax with it.

[33:15]

That's another softer interpretation. Because you know, externality, you don't want to get too oppositional with something that doesn't exist. It's like this second ancestor, He tried all these different things, and every time he was creating another external involvement. So that's doing something. That's trying something. But if you say, well, just allow all external involvements to cease, let's say there's nothing to be done. So Bodhidharma wanted to know, have you fallen into nihilism? You can't say there's nothing to be done. So would you say it's a question of knowing the difference? Like training to know when there's something to be done? To know when there's something to be done? Well, in a sense, Will asked, do we have to wait until we're tranquil, until we start doing work to help the world?

[34:21]

And I said, you're not going to wait. You're going to be doing things non-stop. So you don't have to wait to decide whether to do something or not. You're going to decide to do something all the time. The world's going to make you active all day long. And in my activity, there may be involvement, and there may be breathing through involvement. In your activity, there may be involvement in seeing your activity and the things you're interacting with as external. There may be that. Yes. So that's something which you can expound. So it says that the second ancestor actually expounded. In other words, you should express. You should express yourself about this. You should say, this is how I feel about this situation. To show yourself and others whether you're externalizing them. That's the training.

[35:22]

Huh? That's the training. That's the training, yeah. That's to make your activity not just activity because you're going to be active, but make your activity training. Make your activity expressing your understanding all the time. Of course, my activity always expresses my understanding. You're always expressing yourself from your current understanding. So then it's good to realize that, that you're constantly showing your understanding. And watch to see, what have you shown? Have I shown a dualistic understanding? And how does that work? And can I express that this is my dualistic understanding? This is my understanding and now my understanding is that was dualistic. And then also, what do you people think of my understanding? And please give me feedback about whether my understanding seems to show dualism.

[36:25]

And when you give it to me, notice whether you're being dualistic about it when you give me that feedback. Or may I ask if you'd like feedback too? And so on, and learn how to receive feedback and give feedback in a way that isn't giving feedback to avoid feedback and receiving feedback to avoid feedback. Remembering that we're not external to each other. Remembering the teaching that we're not external to each other, right. And then seeing if we're acting in accord with that teaching, and if we're not, we confess it, that we're not. That's the training, that's the training that the second ancestor did with the first ancestor around this teaching for seven years. And then finally he got to the point where he felt like, after, in this section also, Dogen talks about a hundred misses and then one hit.

[37:32]

But again, as you may know, the hundred misses come to fruit as one hit. You couldn't have made that, you might have made one hit the first time and then had a hundred misses. But often at times it's a hundred misses and one hit, but it takes a hundred misses to get that one hit. So he missed many, many times, he didn't get it quite right, this teaching, and finally he felt he got it. And then he brought it to the teacher to see if the teacher agreed. The teacher did agree, but still tested him a little bit. Just to say, you know, you're not being nihilistic, are you? And then he demonstrated, he expressed how he thought he was not being nihilistic. And the teacher was happy with it, and that was the end of that story. I think Carolyn's next. You're talking about having faith in, your example of a hundred hits, you know, having faith in...

[38:36]

A hundred misses. A hundred hits and one miss. Yeah, that's also true. A hundred hits come to fruition as one miss. After you hit a hundred times, then you can have a miss. And vice versa. My question was about kind of keeping or fostering faith through those hundred misses. Fostering faith through the misses? Yeah, so how would you foster faith when you're repeatedly seeing the world as dualistically? Well, one way that I would do it would be that I would feel I'm seeing things dualistically, but I have confidence that my ancestors spent a lot of time seeing things dualistically too. So although, or another way to put it is, before Buddhas were enlightened, they were just like me.

[39:43]

They had problems like me. They misunderstood. But the difference between the Buddhas and some people is that when they made mistakes, they noticed that they made mistakes. They said, that's a mistake. And noticing your mistakes, and remembering that the ancestors noticed their mistakes, and then noticing your mistakes and remembering the teaching that noticing your mistakes is practicing Dharma. Then you're practicing, then you're making mistakes and you're noticing them, but you understand with confidence, and you can get confirmation in lots of places, that that's just what the ancestors did too. They made mistakes and noticed mistakes. If you're making mistakes and not noticing them, that's a little bit like thinking you're not making mistakes. Did you get that? Making mistakes and not noticing that you're making mistakes is quite similar to thinking that you don't make mistakes.

[40:46]

People do make mistakes, but they don't necessarily notice it. But noticing you're making mistakes is practicing the Buddha way. When you notice the mistake, the Dharma wheel turns. And so if you notice you make mistakes, you can have confidence that you're like the ancestors who made mistakes and noticed that they made mistakes. That's one way that... And I have confidence that they were that way. It makes sense to me that they were that way. They said they were, and it makes sense to me that they were. Buddha said that he was anxious. So when I meet anxious people or I feel anxious, I say, you're just like Buddha. Buddha was that way before Buddha was enlightened. Buddha was anxious too. But everybody's anxious, but not everybody notices it. Buddhas are those who have noticed that they were anxious for a long time. And they noticed the reason they were anxious.

[41:50]

And the reason they're anxious is because they think things are external. Because they're still involved with externals. In other words, they're still involved with illusions, because there aren't any externals. But even Buddhas had that same problem that we have. But they noticed it and they studied it and they expressed that they had that problem over and over until they got over it. Yes? I guess I feel like sometimes it's not so encouraging to see repeated mistakes. It's not so encouraging to see repeated mistakes? It's not so encouraging to see repeated mistakes? There's a little turn there, you know. The mistakes aren't encouraging, but I'm encouraged to see that I notice the mistakes.

[42:52]

I'm encouraged by noticing my mistakes, even though when I notice my mistakes, it doesn't mean I've noticed all my mistakes. But at least I noticed this one. That's encouraging. So the mistakes aren't encouraging, but noticing the mistakes are encouraging. A lot of people make mistakes, but the ones who are encouraged are the ones who notice the mistakes. And not just notice the mistakes, but also as a little bit additional encouragement, here's a teaching that noticing mistakes and admitting mistakes and expressing mistakes is the Buddha way. That's how to protect beings, is to notice your mistakes. And what is seeking to not have those mistakes? What is seeking to not have mistakes? What is seeking to become something? Someone wants to answer your question, yes?

[44:04]

Did you want to answer the question? What is a mistake? What's a mistake? Oh, a mistake is when you do something that you didn't mean to do. Like, you know, you want to be kind to people and you're cruel to people. You want to tell the truth and you lie. You want to pour water into the teapot and you pour it on the floor. You know, stuff like that are mistakes. You didn't mean to do it and you did it anyway. You want to learn how to not see people as separate and you see them as separate. It's not a mistake that when you see people as separate you feel anxiety. Anxiety is just a consequence of that mistake. If you want to see things inaccurately and falsely,

[45:05]

then the way you see things is not a mistake. Then you're a success already. But if you want to see things truly, then the way you see things is false. So from the point of view of seeing the truth, the way we see things is mistaken. Because we see things falsely. So we have to train ourselves to stop believing the way we see things. That's what this training is about. Stop being involved in what seems to be external, what appears to be external. All these people, all these practices, all these Buddhas who seem to be external, knock that off. Or anyway, allow that to be dropped. Yes? So once you drop it, once you're able to drop it, like this is the final you did?

[46:10]

Again, can I just say something? You said once you're able to drop it. It's really once it's dropped. Once it's dropped? Once it's dropped, yes. Is that for all time? It usually, once you're able to drop it, it usually comes back. But sometimes after you drop it, you can drop it again, and again, and again, and again. Then you can actually start more and more continuously cultivating dropping it. I had an experience of practice of mind like a wall, in which thoughts were, stories were coming up that were accepting, and being like a wall, but not believing in the stories.

[47:12]

And... Not believing? You had some experience of not believing some stories that you heard in your head? Not believing the story? Okay, yeah, great. It was not action in relationship to believing the story. It was, however, action in relationship to the story. If a story arises and you don't believe it, you still have action. And it's in relationship to the story, but it's not in relationship to believing the story is the only story. But the story still is the thing. The story is the detail, is the form that you're paying attention to. And you pay close attention to what the story is, and then don't believe it. You pay close attention to, you know, what the story of Zen Center is, and then don't believe it. And then you will act, but then your activity will realize the Buddha way.

[48:20]

Whereas if you believe the story, your activity, you know, doesn't so fully realize the way. But you will have activity in relationship to whatever story is in your mind, your activity will arise in relationship to the story. And believing it is not, generally speaking, a good idea. But noticing what it is, giving it attention, like when somebody else tells you a story, listening carefully to the story, it does not mean that you're attached to the story that they're telling you. You could just be practicing minute attention to the details of the stories they're telling you, about how good or bad you are, or how good or bad they are. And it might be that while they're telling the story, and while you don't believe the story they're telling you, or even the story you're telling yourself about listening to them tell you their story, you might say, I don't want to hear any more of your story. Or you might give them a nickel.

[49:26]

A lot of things are possible from freedom from the story. If you're caught by the story, you will act. If you're not caught by the story, you will act. If you're not caught by the story, that's what we call, in the midst of the story, finding your place, finding your way. And then the practice will happen, the Buddha way will happen, because you're not caught by the story of what's going on. But if you don't find your place, that's too bad. You know, we don't find our place because we're caught by our story about our place. Yes? What is action that comes from respect, not believing in the story, but action that doesn't ignore that the story is in place?

[50:43]

Well, I kind of hate to repeat myself, but when you hear a story and you respect the story, that means you listen to the story carefully and then you look again. So you listen to the story and you give the story your full attention, as though you're listening to the story in minute attention to the details of what you're experiencing. And then, because that's part of the respect, the next part of the respect is you look again at the story. In other words, you forget about the story you heard and look to see what the story was. So respect means you don't believe the story, actually. And if I respect you, it means I don't believe how you appear to me when I first look at you. But I do look at you to start with, because I can't look at you again unless I look at you once. And I look at you once in detail and care, and then I look again in a fresh way, not caught by my first impression.

[51:48]

So then that's another way to talk about what it's like not to believe how you think a person is, or to believe how you see a person. To keep being refreshed and get over your way of thinking about people, the stories you're telling about them. So respect is another word that can help you do this practice. So the Second Ancestor was trying to show Bodhidharma that he respected all phenomena over and over until he got it just right. Was there something else? Yes? That if I don't believe the story that you're telling me, of not believing the story, how do I practice? What did you say? Are you going to say that again? Sure. Would you like me to? Who are you? Sure, I would like to.

[52:52]

Do you want to say it again? That by trying to practice this practice of not fully believing the story that you are... No, no, no, no. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You're supposed to believe the story I tell you. You're not supposed to believe the story you tell. Believe the story I tell, but don't believe the story you tell about the story I tell. Well, it sounds like a great story. I like it. That's the story? No. The story that sounds like a great story is the story you're telling about the story I told. I didn't say it was a great story. You said that. That's your story about my story. Believe my story. Don't believe your story about my story. But the problem is that when I tell you stories, you always have your story about my stories. So that's kind of got to deal with that. I'm telling you stories. Bodhidharma tells us stories. We're telling each other Bodhidharma's stories.

[53:53]

And when we hear Bodhidharma's stories, we don't just hear Bodhidharma's stories. We have our story about Bodhidharma's stories. Those you shouldn't believe. But you can believe my stories. That's fine. But how are you going to hear those? Because you're interpreting my stories through your stories. So give up your stories about my stories and then listen to my stories. And then check to see whether I gave up my stories about my stories. What did you say? And then listen again. And then listen again, yeah. Because we don't want to get nihilistic and say, okay, no more stories. Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. Yes, Judith?

[54:53]

What's the difference between nihilism and hearing all the stories and knowing that words don't reach you? Words don't reach stories, but stories don't reach your place. Stories don't reach where you actually are. And words don't reach your place. Your place, your way, is when you're not fooled by stories. Words don't reach that place. And that's the place in the middle of all these stories.

[55:57]

And it's a place of great concentration, where you're really touching where you are. And that's where you are and you're touching when you are, right now. And then you watch to see how the practice happens from that place. And words can't reach that place and stories can't reach that place. And when you hear stories and you don't get caught by them, that's because the stories don't reach that place. And being in that place, you're not caught by stories. And not being caught by stories, you don't disrespect stories. You respect stories. Stories being tossed at you all the time, stories bubbling up in your mind all the time. You respect those stories from this place that words don't reach. You're in the place where stories don't reach and from there you respect all stories. And respecting them means other people's stories are as good as yours, yours are as good as theirs.

[57:03]

None of these stories are meant to be grasped as externals. And from this place where these stories don't reach, you don't grasp these stories. And from this place your activity, which is constantly happening anyway, becomes the Buddha way. And then if you think it's becoming the Buddha way, you can also check it out with all the other people who are not external. And they can give you feedback to deepen the realization. And sometimes they give you feedback which deepens the realization in the form of them pointing out to you that some words were reaching the place you thought words weren't reaching. You thought you reached your place in your way. You thought the Buddha way was coming from that place that they do come from. But you didn't reach that place because words still reach it. And their feedback to you shows that words reach that place because at that place you're still fighting the words they say or liking the words they say, attaching to the words they say,

[58:06]

which means you still a little bit think that their words are external to this place. Your place is a place where there's nothing external to you. That's the place that the practice comes from. Is that place unique for each being? It's unique for each being. Is it unique and exactly the same? It's unique and it's the same practice. Everybody's doing the same practice. It's the same practice. But your place is not my place. The place you give up making things external is a different place from where I give up making things external. But it's the same practice. One practice, all these different beings who are not separate from each other. Yes, Justin?

[59:08]

Don't you always have to live by some kind of story in order to know what to do? If you don't believe that story, then what to do will happen. But you do need a story in order... And the reason why you need a story is because you do have a story. When you wake up in the morning, you do have a story. Every time you wake up, you wake up and the story is, I don't know where I am and now I do, and now I don't, and now I do. You have these stories, that's your life. And you need those stories because you have those stories.

[60:09]

And now, if you really want to know what to do, it isn't by going by those stories, you know, like you wake up and say, am I in Spain or Minneapolis or Tosajara? It isn't by those stories that I figure out what to do. It's the way of relating to them that shows the way. Now, if I do use those stories as the way I figure out to do by grasping them, then what I do is I suffer. So you need stories to suffer and you need stories to be free. So we're not saying no stories, we're saying don't make them external. We're saying don't grasp them, don't believe them. That's all. Not to have any. So you do need them, yes, and you need them because you've got them. So we want to pay minute attention to the stories and study them so that we can find the place that they don't reach. We need to find the place that words don't reach

[61:16]

by carefully studying all the words. Yes? You say that things aren't external to us. I didn't really say that. I said that the externality is an illusion. There's no such thing as external. So I find myself trying to believe that story. You said that's the way to go about it? No, I wouldn't say that's the way to believe it. I would say listen to the teaching, which I guess means that you believe the story that it would be helpful to listen to that teaching. But I'm just saying that's what Bodhidharma taught his student. His student listened to that teaching and practiced with that teaching. When Bodhidharma said try to believe the story that the externality is an illusion, he said try to give up the story

[62:19]

that the externality is an illusion. Yes. Which is quite similar to I'm asking you to give up illusions. Cease being involved with illusions as realities. Or another way to put it is if you are involved with illusions as realities, I'd like you to knock it off. And then your mind, your energy, your breath will be unblocked or in addition to that, unblock your energy, which either way you want to read the Chinese, and then you'll have a mind like a wall, and then you'll enter the way. In other words, the disciple came to him and said show me how to enter the way, and he said okay, here's how to enter the way. You want to enter the way? This is how. He wouldn't necessarily say that to somebody who didn't say they wanted to enter the way. If somebody came to him and said how can I not enter the way?

[63:19]

He probably would have said be involved in externals. Just hang in there, making everything external, and you will be protected from the Buddha way. So now you know. If you don't want to practice the Buddha way, just keep focusing on everybody as external to you. They're out there. They're not you. They got their trips, and they're separate from you forever, and now you're protected from the Buddha way. But of course that'll collapse. Yeah, it does. It sounds like our nation. Yes? Is it realistic not to have a story about your story? It's only existing in my mind, the story. That's right. So is it realistic not to have a story about your story?

[64:20]

No, it's not realistic not to have a story about my story. It's not realistic. What is realistic is that you do have a story about my story. That's realistic. Now that you've got a story about my story, please give up that story. About my story. But don't give up my story. Yes? What did you say? It's constitutionally unfit to understand this. Can you just practice kindness? If you can understand, to some extent, practicing kindness,

[65:22]

can you do it from the root? Can you have a little bit more by practicing kindness? Or practicing teaching kindness. Or practicing giving a job as a doctor. Give kindness. Can that just be the practice that you can't do the or, you know, aren't inclined to? What I said earlier this week and didn't give a lot of attention to was this teaching, in order to be constitutionally ready to receive it, it's good to be quite calm and tranquil. If you practice Tai Chi and learn the forms, or the forms of Zen, or if you practice kindness and you learn how to practice kindness without having lots of discursive thoughts about your kindness,

[66:24]

but just try to be kind without thinking a lot about it, then you will become constitutionally suited to this teaching. But kindness all by itself may not actually transform your deep attitudes. It might not, it might not be sufficient. Remember, Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva, the great Bodhisattva, that Bodhisattva was meditating on Prajnaparamita. So even that great Bodhisattva was meditating on all five skandhas being empty. Even that great Bodhisattva had to overcome the belief that the skandhas were out there, external. So when the Heart Sutra says that Avalokiteshvara clearly saw that all five aggregates are empty, that means that she clearly saw that they're not external.

[67:26]

But this Bodhisattva was very calm, and when you're calm, then you can stand this kind of revelation. Some people might be able to stand this revelation without developing a lot of calm. But if you can't let it in, and most people can't, then we usually recommend, well, calm down first. Develop more flexibility and softness in your mind, and then this teaching will be able to come in and do its thing on you. So practicing kindness in the forms of Tai Chi or the forms of Zen practice, cutting vegetables, chopping wood, like Paul Disko gave a talk at Green Gulch last week about, you know, carpentry practice, and how to do the work and not let your mind get involved there so that gradually you become so calm that you can receive this teaching. But without this some kind of like meditation on emptiness,

[68:30]

it's hard for Bodhisattvas to thoroughly transform your mind. And you're already doing it. Can the teaching come from the inside out rather than have the teaching come from the outside in? And is practicing kindness a way of realizing the teaching from the inside out? We want ultimately the teaching to come from the inside out. But it looks like most people can't find it inside until they hear it outside first. So first you hear it outside

[69:32]

and you take it inside and it goes inside and then it comes from the inside out. So practicing kindness is more fundamental than this wisdom practice. So you practice kindness and there's many ways to practice it. One of the ways to do it is to like take care of a monastery or a garden in a kind way. You do that and you do that and you do that and you become more and more calmed and more and more skillful. And then this teaching can come from inside. But if you practice kindness and there's any conceptual attitude about your kindness still there, you need some instruction

[70:33]

to give up that conceptual approach to your kindness. And when you can practice kindness without any story about how you feel or how you're practicing kindness, when your kindness practice isn't external anymore, then you've taken this practice in. So you can use kindness or Tai Chi forms as a thing you're focusing on. That's the form and you pay attention, minute attention to the details of kindness. But somebody needs to tell you that your idea of your practice of kindness has to be dropped. That this kindness is not external to you. When your kindness is not external to you, then the practice comes from what you are, from your place, not from outside. In other words, it looks like we need to be in communion with the other.

[71:34]

We cannot do it with the idea that I myself can realize the practice of kindness. I need to invite the Buddha to teach me and I need to get over that the Buddha is external to me. And the way I get over the Buddha being external to me is to invite the Buddha, which is not external to me, to teach me. Or I bow to the Buddha to get over the idea that the Buddha is separate from me. Because the Buddha always never was someplace else. But without that kind of practice, most of us have deep within us a sense of separation between unenlightened and enlightened. In a word,

[72:40]

a thought, or a conceptual understanding, how does this actually manifest in this physical body within the moments of empty time? I don't know if I do, but I heard you say you're trying to get the actual experience of how this manifests. And I think the way it happens is that you interact over a long period of time with some form. And if you think that you've reached the place, you express that you think you've reached the place. Then you say you found the experience and then you interact with somebody

[73:41]

who is in that same work with you and see if you can arrive at a chord on that. If you don't think you've arrived at that place you expressed it, you don't think you've arrived at the experience. So you dialogue or you interact around the experience until you verify the experience. And you try to find this place where you are and this way that you are. And you keep expressing whether you think you've found it or not. And then you get feedback from those who express your sense of where you are and that becomes also the opportunity for the next expression about that you feel you have or you have not found your place. Thank you.

[74:50]

We have sort of a schedule, you know, that we're... How do you feel... Should we stop now, do you think, Li Ping, to go to our Tai Chi class? Is that enough? There's a few questions, but it seems like that's maybe enough for today. Is that all right? Is that okay? Is that all right if we stop? Yes. May our intention equally extend to every being and place with the true merit of Buddha's way. Beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates

[75:56]

are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. Thank you. Excuse me. I just realized that this person was asking me about how to have some experience of this. Right now, do you have any... I had a little bit of experience when I was talking to you that you were somebody who was like asking me about how to actually experience this place, this state. At that time, I felt like I was talking to somebody who was external to me. That feeling of externality

[76:58]

is what I'm actually... that is actually an experience I had which I can then let go of or hold on to. If you were talking to me, if you felt that this person you're talking to of all people is external to you, then that's the thing that Bodhidharma is saying, let go of that. If you and I can let go of the sense that we're external to each other, that's the door to this state. We can experience the door or the blockage. And the blockage is that little bit or a lot of sense that we're external to each other. That's what we can work with and relax with and confess. Okay?

[77:49]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ