I don't know quite how to begin speaking to you, but I had an idea that I would read to you something that I wrote a few days ago. It's for a conference that I was invited to and which I said I would go to, which is at the end of this month on the 23rd, on the 22nd and 23rd of March. And this conference is called Heal by Planets, Heal the Earth by Earth. And it is a conference

[01:08]

for medical people, for doctors and nurses and other kinds of healers and health care workers. And they invited me to participate. And they gave me a title for my talk without talking to me, but I thought it was a good title for me to try to adapt to. It's called Reflections, Colon, Health, Healing and the Natural World. So I didn't know what to do, but here's what I wrote.

[02:18]

As they wanted an outline or a summary of the talk to publish beforehand. So here's what I wrote. Zen Buddhism is primarily concerned with how the entire living earth of humans, animals, trees, grasses, mountains, rivers and seas may be healthy, happy and harmonious. Its point of view is that the world is created by the actions of all living beings and that these actions are derived from our awareness and thinking. Therefore, that world may be transformed by transforming our

[03:24]

awareness and ways of thinking. When we think and feel that we exist inherently and independently, ignoring our interdependence with all life, our actions will contribute to the creation of a world of suffering and conflict. On the other hand, if we understand that we are all deeply interconnected and see that the kindness we do for others is also beneficial to ourselves and those most dear to us, and furthermore, that the slightest harm to any

[04:27]

living being is simultaneously harmful to us, then our actions will contribute to creating a world of health and harmony. That's kind of the Buddhist introduction to the doctors. Do you understand? Then I say, the work of healing and health care offers a wonderful arena of opportunities for both the healer and the patient to mutually discover and develop the awareness of interdependence. Health and healing professionals are usually quite aware of the

[05:35]

suffering of their patients, but they may not be as aware of their own suffering. Our lack of awareness of our own suffering may become a major obstacle in the healing process, which is founded on the healer-patient relationship. Becoming aware of our suffering and completely accepting it is a crucial step in becoming free of our suffering. In fact, we are healed from suffering only by experiencing it to the full. Therefore, I propose that a deep awareness of one's own suffering is necessary to the healing process. In this, the healer can be a model for the patient. And I didn't write it, but, and the patient can be a model for the healer.

[06:42]

Huh? Pardon? Why didn't I write that? Well, I don't know. I mean, I didn't not write it. Today I see it. Maybe I could call the telephone and change it before it's too late. By going back and forth between our awareness of our own suffering and others' suffering, going back and forth between our own awareness of our own suffering and awareness of others' suffering and then aware of our suffering, back and forth like that, a deepening and widening sense of empathy develops until finally we feel empathy for all creation. This vast empathy is the womb in which the deep awareness of interdependence is awakened. Finally, these actions that emanate from this compassionate awareness will promote and sustain

[08:00]

personal, societal, and environmental health and healing. Becoming aware of our shared suffering is an indispensable key to fully realizing the interdependence of all life. And this, in turn, is a source of actions which will heal our mother, the earth. So that's what I, that's the outline for that talk. Um, at the end of the talk, I will have him sing the Red Red Rock. I thought, I thought I, I heard that medical, medical, um, talks, usually what they do is they

[09:07]

say, thank you for introducing me and now I'd like my first slide. That's the usual way that they do it. Um, but I, so they have these overhead projectors so we can put the lyrics on the screen. Okay. And hopefully they have a piano there and somebody can come play, play the background music. I don't know. Um, the place I'd like to, uh, this is my, that's the thing, the place I'd like to focus on for us is on this, uh, the issue of to experience our suffering fully. And um, I guess what I would say is that, is that it seems to me that in order to experience our

[10:18]

own suffering fully, we actually need to recognize other suffering. That actually other people's suffering, recognizing other people's suffering, um, and developing empathy for others actually is part of what it means to experience our own suffering completely. Does that seem reasonable to you? And let's see now if I can tie something else in here. Um, now we have new people here sitting Tongariro and, uh, so you're not familiar with some language we've been using. Um, I don't know if I can

[11:24]

say something that you'll be able to understand. So, um, I guess I would start by, maybe rather than starting philosophically, I'll start

[12:33]

by a story which I've already told here, and that is a story of, of me, um, having some suffering, a little bit of suffering over, uh, hearing about, um, enormous car repair bills. So, have you heard about this story about the time when I was getting a recent BMW fixed? You haven't heard that story? You heard that story, Lee? You heard that story, Jim? What? Right. So, just, I guess just we all haven't heard this story. So anyway, I, during, there was a Sashin, we had a Sashin at Green Gulch, and during the Sashin, the topic of my talks was, uh, Sansui Kyo, Mountains and Rivers Scripture by Dogen Zenji,

[13:38]

right, and one of the key, uh, messages in that story, in that fascicle is, a monk asked Yunmen, where do the Buddhas come from? Where are the Buddhas born? And in this paper, did you hear, did you hear where I said the Buddhas were born? Hmm? Could you remember? Where, where were they born? They're born in the womb of empathy for all beings, okay? That's where the, uh, mind or the consciousness of interdependence is born in the womb of empathy for all beings, okay? Yunmen said, uh, where are, the monk said, where are the Buddhas born? Yunmen said,

[14:40]

Eastern mountains move over the water. Same, it's the same statement poetically put. What are the Eastern mountains? Eastern mountains are my suffering and your suffering and experiencing all that suffering. Well, actually not even experiencing, just the suffering is Eastern mountains, but the Eastern mountains fully being the Eastern mountains. All this suffering fully experienced, then the Eastern mountains move over the water. The water is the nature of suffering. The water is the nature of the mountains. Namely, all this suffering, all these mountains of experience lack inherent existence. That's the

[15:47]

water. So the mountains of the world sit on the water of emptiness. And Dogen Zenji says, at the, at the top of the water, at the top of emptiness meets the toes, the feet and the toes of the mountains, the tip toe of suffering, the whole body of suffering right down to the tip toes meets the head of emptiness. Emptiness meets the complete exertion of suffering. Fully experiencing all being suffering is the toes of the mountains and there the mountains walk over the water. And that's where Buddhas are born. In this liberation through fully experiencing suffering, also release is right there.

[16:51]

And then the wondrous Eastern mountains glide across the waters. So that's what I was talking about in the Sesshin. But then after Sesshin I got out and I got a mountain. The mountain I got was car bills, which were twice as much as I thought they would be. And the car bills were considerably more than the car was worth. So I got kind of upset. I experienced some irritation, some frustration, considerable frustration. But I forgot about experiencing frustration to the full. I thought maybe I could experience the frustration partly. And so that's what I did. I experienced this frustration partly. I knew I was upset about

[17:54]

it, but rather than take it completely on, I tried to look for someone to blame. I didn't really totally go to the bottom of the mountain of this suffering. So the mountain was not moving over the water. The mountain was just sitting there on top of my head, squashing me down. And then I went to see my little niece in the hospital. And she had just had open heart surgery after being one day old, just born. Some of her pulmonary artery didn't close off like it was supposed to and another one opened, so they had to do an operation, which was successful. But she was still under sedation when I saw her. And she was there and she was suffering. She was trying to suffer, actually. As best she could, she was suffering under sedation.

[19:01]

And she was trying to cry, but she was too drowsy to cry. But you could see she was trying to cry, but she couldn't open her mouth. And her eyes, she couldn't open either. And her eyes were bulged out in the effort. You can see her trying to cry. And her little eyeballs were bulging out. Then looking at her, I feel I gave into my suffering. Seeing her and feeling mine, finally I settled into my position. I accepted my suffering. And there in the hospital, the words came to my head, the eastern mountains move over the water. I remembered the meditation that I was recommending during sashi.

[20:02]

So that's why I should put in that other line, and the patient may be a model for the healer. Because, you know, I'm not, I wasn't her doctor, but this patient showed me how to fully experience my own suffering. She was on, she was not conscious, so I couldn't teach her how to experience hers, but she didn't really need any help. She was doing her best. Okay. Now the, now the next step is that I further propose that this kind of situation is one where you can make the switch from birth and death to suchness.

[21:20]

In this kind of situation, that you can switch from experiencing independently co-produced phenomena, which you still believe have some substance, and because you believe they have some substance, or, well, yeah, because you believe they have some substance, you've got, you're in birth and death. But if we can experience, you know, suffering also means experience. Suffering means also just experience. If we can experience or suffer whatever is happening, whatever appearance we're dealing with, if we can suffer all the way to its end, at that point

[22:32]

a gift may be given, a switch may occur, and we may realize the emptiness of this experience, the emptiness of this suffering, and switch from dependently co-produced birth and death to dependently co-produced suchness to experience release right at that point. So so do you have any questions about this? Is this all

[24:12]

okay? Thank you. So yes, could you speak up please? So she said, does this also apply to release from great happiness and beauty? And yes, it applies to particularly release from my idea of beauty. My idea of beauty and some actual set beauty which I think is beautiful

[25:28]

is a mountain, and if I follow this beauty all the way to its end I will be released from my beauty and I will be given another beauty which is free of my conception of beauty. An inconceivable beauty, and also a beauty that's beneficial to others, not just to me. Thank you.

[26:31]

I guess it's some experience of attempting to follow suffering through, and instead seeming to just get lost in it. I think there's a difference between getting lost or getting indulged in one's suffering and following it through. That's why I'm proposing that we don't just follow our own personal suffering, because if we do that we may get sort of into a conceptual version of our suffering. If we follow just our conceptual version of our suffering, that can become too introverted or too narrow and gets kind of indulgent in a way. But if we go also to awareness of other suffering and then back to our own, back and forth, other suffering keeps being beyond our concept of our own suffering. But similarly, you see that's why I'm talking to these doctors

[27:41]

and nurses, sometimes they get into other suffering which they can get a concept of that too, right? And that can become self-indulgent. So they should come back and become aware of their own, which they sometimes don't, and then go back to the patient. By going back and forth between my suffering and your suffering, pretty soon I'm entering into a realm called shared suffering, which is beyond my conception and yet not separate from my conception of my own suffering. My conception of your suffering and my conception of my suffering partly produce this realm of the totality of my suffering and your suffering. That then hopefully will free us from this kind of self-indulgent suffering or getting into some kind of morbidity or something. The same would apply to beauty or happiness, not just my own happiness but others' happiness, not just my own idea of beauty. The same thing, widen the realm in

[28:45]

which we look at it, go back and forth between self and other, look at it inside but then look at it in the relationships too. Not easy but that's sort of what I'm suggesting. And some people are withdrawn from suffering people and don't look at their own suffering and they're very unhealthy or take various kinds of alcohol, drugs and other things to prevent them from being aware of their own suffering, that's one kind of problem. Some other people are aware of their suffering and get so depressed that they can't function. That's not the way. Others are aware of other people's suffering but aren't aware of their own and many people who take care of suffering

[29:46]

beings also take drugs and alcohol to prevent them from feeling their own suffering and then they keep going looking at other people's suffering but this lack of awareness here is kind of a bad example for the patient. So that doesn't work. So some people are aware of the outside but not the inside, some people are aware of the inside but not the outside. So what I think is healthy is to be aware of inner suffering and outer suffering back and forth on some rhythmical basis, like for example your breath is a good rhythm, every breath. Take in awareness of other's suffering and feel it in yourself and let go of it and give back compassion and take it in. So every breath is a good rhythm to circulate and also be aware that that may not even thoroughly do it so

[30:46]

maybe ask people how they're doing too and ask yourself how you're doing and ask other people how you're doing and ask other people to ask other people how they're doing. Get everybody inquiring into everybody's suffering and including their own and it seems to me that this will promote this sense of interdependence and finally that will be born and then if that's born this awareness of interdependence then what we say and what we do with our body I think will tend to be healing. We'll be less likely to you know throw a cigarette on the ground or pollute the stream or many other things like that if we have this awareness. So empathy isn't the whole story. Empathy is necessary. It's kind of the ground upon which this awakened awareness and interdependence because empathy doesn't directly

[31:48]

lead to action it's rather the awareness which is born of empathy from that awareness then we act we speak we walk we talk we work in the fields we work on our cars or we don't work on our cars we drive our car we don't drive our car but if we drive our car maybe we drive our car with some sadness that we have to pollute a little bit. We still may do it but not without some sense of suffering and maybe little by little we'll change our environment through this empathy and through this interconnected feeling. That's my hope anyway. Yes, could you speak any more loudly? Yes. What I understood what you just said in part was that

[32:54]

getting lost in one's own suffering is getting lost in the concept about it instead of just experiencing suffering. Experiencing it all the way through is just hanging out with the feeling as far as it goes perhaps but anyway it's different than getting an idea of it and then clinging to that. It's better than I'm suggesting getting an idea of your suffering is part of your idea of your suffering that's part of it but your suffering is much greater than just your idea of it you know like some suffering is much more intense than your idea of it right like child delivery the pain is greater than the woman's conception of it it's you know it's universal so I'm just saying don't think your suffering is just the concept that you're dealing with it's more than that yes but when we get lost in when we indulge in the suffering is when we think

[33:56]

that our concept is it yeah and then and then to say buddhist practice is to grasp that concept and that that will liberate me well that's not quite right now if you grasp the concept and you're also then one step further and exhaustively studying it would be to realize this is a concept that would be an additional that would be more thorough than just to grasp a concept and think it's real would be to grasp the concept and say I think confess I think this is real then oh I think this is real what buddhist teaching says it's not so so I should also realize it's actually a concept and that would start leading me into all kinds of other things which perhaps come from that one step past that where I got a little bit lost is you seem to be proposing to check in to other people's suffering will blow our own concept of our suffering yeah I like the nice story I I was going around with my suffering in this little concept you know

[35:01]

which I wasn't really accepting yeah I wasn't even accepting what I thought my suffering was when I saw my niece it kind of blew I didn't think I could blow my concept it just blew my my being concerned with that little realm of suffering and I entered into a bigger realm of suffering which put my previous suffering in context and I wasn't really and and it allowed me to get into more suffering far beyond that little suffering which I wasn't even accepting this little suffering then I looked at my niece's huge suffering and by seeing her my little suffering I was happy to get into and I went far beyond my little suffering so I was no longer resisting my little suffering and I was no longer looking for anybody to blame for my little suffering and I felt like the little suffering which I had which I was looking at which I wasn't accepting was just kind of like a little knock on the door knock knock guess what you're supposed to be paying attention to and I thought you know knock knock later later you know I

[36:04]

forget it this is not you know I don't want to hear this suffering somebody else take care of that get rid of it knock knock and then I saw my niece and then it was boom boom you get the message kid oh this was just this little suffering was just a little knock knock I was supposed to sort of wake up to the universal suffering of all being I get it now so seeing her it helped me understand my little suffering and my little suffering was not really my suffering my little suffering was just a little knock knock on the door to open up to my suffering so my suffering was my little suffering of this car bill then my suffering was a much bigger suffering than my niece but my suffering is bigger than my bigger than what I see in my niece bigger than my car bill it's a lot bigger than the sum total of those two it's also to see your suffering to see Hekizan suffering to see Galen suffering to see Kodo suffering to

[37:08]

see all their suffering this starts to get to be what my suffering is that is what it means to experience my suffering all the way to the end and that if I could do that I believe that then I would understand what awareness of interdependence is and then I don't think I would be able to hurt anything anymore and then I think I would just drop everything but doing something that's beneficial would be all I would do after that but it's hard to open up my heart so completely to all that suffering it's also hard to open up my heart completely to all that beauty and all that happiness right they're all equally awesome but suffering seems to be the key to get into the other ones because we're so resistant we get so fixated and we we tighten up around it so we can make a little space around the suffering

[38:11]

and start spreading it out and that seems to be helpful and one way to do it is to go back and forth look at other people's suffering but come back yourself too don't just go out there keep coming back and forth back and forth it seems to seem to work and sometimes it's given to you you just walk into a room but still I went into the room you see I didn't know what happened when I visited my niece but I did go visit my niece I did put myself in the room with this person I didn't know what she was going to do for me but I did go out of my way to go to the hospital and expose myself to this vulnerable living creature who was suffering completely so part of what we might find helpful is to go to places

[39:18]

where we know our friends are suffering and if we see our friends suffering to say how you doing and they say fine you say you know you don't want to be prying right how you doing fine well you look kind of sad are you the person might say yeah I'm sad but I'm fine well great sometimes they are but sometimes no I really am sad thanks for asking you know I really something like this really happened you know and oh what a that's the kind of sadness you had you know helps me to hear that maybe but also I'm saying not just that because what some people do is they go around asking everybody how they're doing and they hear oh I'm sad or I'm suffering or I'm sad that they feel good to find that out that's good but they forget to come back here so it isn't just going out it isn't

[40:23]

just going in going back and forth I think is really necessary so if the healer is aware of her suffering then she's a good model to the patient if the patient is aware of her suffering like my little niece was even in her stupor she was suffering she was fully exerting her pain and she helps me that supposedly the priest and now she's okay she's five years old and now I can go visit her again and again and we can keep going back and forth like this she's still suffering okay is that yes I've been thinking many times why some people are able to let's say awake um

[41:23]

oh getting crazy is another solution

[41:33]

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