An unsurpassed, penetrating, perfect dharma is rarely met with even in a hundred thousand million kalpas. Having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept. I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. So now you have it. Please keep it well. I thought perhaps today we could talk a little bit more about the extremes that the Buddha recommended that we avoid. And in this dictionary on page 203, if you want to study the word Kama.

[01:04]

You can read about it here. This is available for your reading. It has a big, really extensive discussion of the word Kama, K-A-M-A. By the way, K-M-M-A is the Pali way of saying karma. So karma, its basic meaning is, well, it has objective and subjective meaning. The subjective meaning is enjoyment, pleasure on the occasion of sense, sense-desire. The objective meaning is pleasantness, pleasure-giving, an object of sensual enjoyment as a basic definition.

[02:15]

Okay? So, subjectively sense-desire, enjoyment, pleasure, on the occasion of sense and objectively pleasantness, pleasure giving, object of sensual enjoyment. But there's a big discussion which you might want to read about. And last night someone said to me something about, when I mention sex, she said, when you mention sex, you just go right through. So she wanted to slow down a little bit and consider the issue of sex, because as it says here, in this definition, it says that sensual pleasure, comma, essential pleasure, finds its...

[03:20]

most marked application in the sphere of the sexual, transgressions and lust, sinning and lusts of the flesh, violating the third rule of the conduct of the monk and so on, in chastity, these kinds of issues. central desire finds its most marked application in the area of sex. So I talked to some other people about that last night and they had some strong feelings about this too. And so I guess we could just talk about what do you think the Buddha means by this extreme of addiction to sensual pleasure or addiction to sensual desire, and in particular in the area of sex.

[04:30]

slowing down, not rushing through. That respect or disrespect, that's the guideline for me. Would you say a little bit more? There's value. I think there's value in it. And I think there's nature in terms of love, at least for humans, humans on this planet. It certainly is useful for reproduction. I just keep coming back to respect or disrespect in a way of behaving around sex or pleasure or things.

[05:50]

That's as far as I've gotten with it. So are you saying that when it comes to an occasion where subjectively there's a feeling of sensual pleasure, or objectively there's something which is enjoyable or a pleasant thing, that if you're practicing respect on that occasion, that that might keep you from being addicted to that pleasure. That addiction, that's a loaded term. If you're putting a good addiction or a bad addiction, are we negative spin on that? Yeah, I would say addiction is when you're... There's no choice. Well, addiction is when you use something to turn away from your life.

[06:50]

This is addiction to... indulgence in. He didn't say that sensual pleasure was an extreme. He said that the addiction to sensual enjoyment or the indulgence in it, that is what is an extreme. we can talk about what is karma or what is sensual pleasure. That's one topic. But in particular, how is that an extreme that takes us away from the middle way? And I thought you were saying that maybe if we practice respect with these subjective and objective experiences, that maybe practicing respect will be supportive of not being addicted to these things or not practicing in an addictive way with this phenomena.

[07:53]

And what I mean by addictive is that it takes you away from the middle. Or indulgence isn't just that there's a pleasant phenomena appearing to you or that you have a pleasant feeling, but you indulge in it. In other words, you stick your head in it. You lean into it. you wallow in it. And in that leaning, you lose your balance. You move off the middle. And the other one is you would lean away from it, you know, lean back from it. And in doing that, maybe you mortify yourself. You deprive yourself of sensual pleasure. you feel warm or something so you go jump, you take your clothes off outdoors or something because you feel comfortable being warm so you lean back from it rather than you stay upright with the pleasure or the pain.

[09:07]

But anyway, so when there's pain to indulge in the pain or to be addicted to pain as a way to turning away from your life, or to stay away from pleasure as a way to get away from your life, or to indulge in pleasure. All these are gestures towards moving away from the middle. And I think what I heard you say was maybe respect, if you practice respect with the phenomena, maybe that helps you stay upright. I think so. Yeah. Respecting yourself and how you're conducting your life and respecting people around you. And respecting... Right. And respecting the value of it. I mean, not that you shouldn't have a joyful expression and immerse yourself in that moment of pleasure. And remember, respect means, the etymology of respect is look again. So there's some person or some feeling.

[10:18]

Look again. Don't act on your assumptions. Look again. This is part of what will help you stay, which will help you from veering away from what's happening. Flint. You were describing the leaning in and the leaning back. Just to continue your question, my experience is that I've gotten stuck in a boat. You need to get to something and then feel bad about it, and then in a way, you've got to stop it, which makes the leap forward even more interesting. It's a terrible back-to-forth thing. It seems to oscillate. It can oscillate wildly. You can't find some way to go back. Right. [...]

[11:45]

And you said something last night where... Yeah, that saying, when I asked that question, and I notice I'm willing to admit to myself, which... Oh, this is too toxic to turn away. Then to not act, but to sit with that is excruciating. It's very painful, more painful than I thought. You cannot act in some way. You sit where you... let whatever is underneath come up. Right. And so at that moment I can certainly be aware of my devotion, 100% devotion. To? To sensual pleasure, to sex, right then, in that moment. Devotion to addiction. Devotion to the addiction, yes. See, it said, it said... It's not about sex, really. Right, right. It's about turning away. Right. So he didn't say, he didn't just say addiction and he didn't say just devotion.

[12:49]

He said devotion to addiction, devotion to indulgence. It's not devotion to sex because, you know, very few people are really devoted to sex. They're devoted to addiction to sex. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. And to stay with, and to not act on the, the addictive response, it's very difficult. And that's why you have to practice, you know, love and gentleness with yourself in that state because it's very difficult to stay there unless you're getting some kind of positive, a lot of positive support to do a very difficult thing. Yeah, right. Right? And also just even forcing yourself to stay in that painful situation of facing what that's like, that can turn into self-mortification too.

[13:55]

And then you can use that as a way to avoid the pain you can force yourself to stick your nose in the pain of facing, and then that can take you away from it too. It's very subtle. Betty? For me, I've had the experience of addictive sex, and I've had the experience of... sex that wasn't addictive. And I have to say, for me, it was definitely a way to get away from being receptive. But I didn't know that until I couldn't have it. You know, I had to sit with the feeling of wanting to get away from the pain. Right. Right. And then it was such a path to The easier path is to go to what Stuart says is like the self-hating.

[15:02]

The harder path is to stay with that awareness that we're separate. And yet the awareness of the separateness brings up the other aspect of the awareness that we're connected. And you can't have that until you set with the powerful thing that we are the reality that we are. And then when you have both of those, then you can be with someone. And you can express your gratefulness for the connection and your gratefulness for the separateness that allows you to express the connection that you've seen. So the turning away is just as bad as the pain of the addiction because it's only in the expression of the whole thing that you lose the attachment to the person and it becomes a gift.

[16:13]

becomes a gift, an expression of all that we are, that we are connected and we're not connected. And that full expression for me is a gift that I give to another person. And then it's not grasping. I can give it and I can walk away. And it's a gift to both of us. But I'm really grateful for the experience of the other kind. And I'm really also ashamed of that in a way. I can't see a man who's connected to some people at once. Yes. Scott. It's a fiction that I would like to think that I'm devoted to the way.

[17:30]

You'd like to think that? Yeah. Would you like to think that or would you like to be devoted to the way? What about thinking that you're devoted to the way? What? Right. So you're withdrawing that, I'd like to think that I'm devoted to the way? Okay, thank you. There's a seat over here, and there's a seat next to me. Let's go ahead. Say it again. To some degree you have to Yeah.

[18:44]

Yeah. so unlike what I want to be devoted to. Again, the word devotion was an attachment. It's an attachment to something. So again, there's our basic situation. whatever understanding we have, we have it.

[19:47]

And then based on our understanding, we have some kind of life. If there's some ignorance, then we have some suffering. That's our basic situation, which we need to study. It's hard to study it. because of various kinds of devotions we have. One of them is this devotion to addiction, to sense pleasures. And again, self-loathing also, when you have self-loathing, that is not really our basic condition. That's a distraction from our basic decision. That takes you away from your basic situation. And self-loathing is not like just something that just sort of pops up there. It's something you have to work at. I just wanted to say about, you know, we have a precept called, it's called misusing sexuality or something like that.

[20:52]

And it doesn't say, you know, for some people it's like some kind of literal abstinence for certain behaviors, but even if you abstain from those behaviors, it's still possible to not fulfill the meaning of, it's still possible to not use sexuality or live sexuality in your life in an appropriate way, even if you don't have, for example, genital sex, it's possible to misuse sexuality. And it's also possible that sexuality can be manifesting in genital sex with no misuse of it. That's a possibility. And one of the guidelines that I offer people is when you get close to someone, when you're at long distances from people, you feel a certain way. But as you get closer, most people, as they get closer, they feel more anxiety.

[21:54]

And if you're attracted to the person, If you feel basically comfortable and attracted to them, they're an attractive object. They're a pleasant object. As you get closer, most people start feeling anxiety. They're manifesting some of the characteristics of an anxiety attack. Having trouble breathing sometimes, fainting, swooning. Heartbeat increasing. These kinds of things sometimes happen as you get closer and closer to this person who you find attractive. Not to mention if you sense that they find you attractive. Closer and closer, more and more anxiety. Some people have experienced that. Has anybody here ever experienced that? And in that space, in that closeness, let's say they're within arm's reach.

[23:01]

If you reach out to touch them and your motivation is to cut through or distract yourself from that anxiety, you're doing that to distract yourself from your basic situation of anxiety, which is being accentuated by being close to this person. You're using your hand, you know, your body, to touch them, because you know that if you touch them, in some sense, that cuts through the anxiety, because it takes away that separation for a moment. And there's a kind of grounding that happens. Before you touch them, it's like almost anything can happen. You feel that. But when you touch them, it's a touch. It may be electric, but still, it's just a touch, and it's a definite thing. So you're grounded, and in some sense, your anxiety drops. And you kind of know that.

[24:07]

And to use your hand or whatever to touch the person, to make your anxiety go down, it takes you away from your situation. It manipulates this basic teaching that you're getting about what's going on in your life. And that's, you know, aside from what happens after that, basically, that's what you've done is you've touched to distract yourself, to cut through and to alleviate your own anxiety. What happens to them? You know, you may be thinking about that, that's part of your anxiety, but when you touch, you forget that for a second. You don't have to worry about that for a second. For a second. Now sometimes the next thing that happens is horrible, you know. But anyway, at that moment, you're trying to reduce your anxiety. I'm not saying you are, I'm saying, are you? And I'm saying, if you are, I say, that's misusing sexuality. And a more mild example is, you know, it's the evening, it's in New York City, right?

[25:20]

Sort of, you're out on a balcony at a cocktail party, you know, and the music's going on. And you meet this person, you know. There's this meeting. And then you think of saying something like, well, what now? Or what should we do next? Just words, you know. Rather than just face that anxiety, you want to do something. You feel like you're doing them a favor to say, well, what should we do now? Do you understand? Do you understand? In other words, you use that little language to take yourself away from just facing the situation. And you often say, well, you're doing them a favor because they're, you know. But really, you can't stand it, so you just say something. You take yourself away from this, you know, very, very basic human thing of two people

[26:30]

And we're built to go unconscious at that time. You know? And turn away from the reality of how we feel. There's a reality there, right under our nose, and we... It's very difficult to stay there, so... Yes, Nancy. In keeping with the now, I'm noticing that... Well, you know, I'm savoring the now, right, of you thinking about that.

[27:33]

This is really wonderful. And I'm here saying, I think it's just great that you think maybe that's a subtle form of leaning away. I am answering your question, you just don't think I am. This is my answer. This is, here's another one. And here's another one. These are my answers to you. And you say, to me, they're not answers, which I think is great. What I interpret is that they're not the answers along the lines that you would think were answers. That's what I guess you mean. Is that what you mean? They're my answers, though. If you want straight answers, you can think those up by yourself.

[28:39]

Right. So do you want a straight answer or do you want my answer? I want yours. Okay. You're getting my answer. And what I'm telling you is I'm really enjoying that you thought that. And I don't want to skip over that and rush by that. And it makes me think of last night at the dinner table I sat down and someone thought on the other side of the table that maybe I was a little upset with her for not going to 5 o'clock Zazen. This person across the table didn't go to the 5 o'clock period of Zazen last night. And when I sat down, she thought... that I was upset with her, something like upset with her, I don't know exactly, but that the way I was acting was in relationship to her not attending that period of meditation. Now her interpretation and wondering about how I was did relate to her not going to the period of meditation.

[29:52]

That was true. She was kind of like wondering, what is going on over there? She's going through the possible things that could possibly be why I'm the way I am. So maybe one of them was that she didn't attend that period of meditation. Now, I also didn't attend it. I was having interviews with some of you, right? So I was doing interviews during the 5 o'clock period, so I didn't know she was there. So it really was true that I was not like glowering at her for not attending. Okay? So I think I love that stuff, that people can use poor little me to imagine the most wonderful things, you know. And then hopefully they can express themselves and find out that that's how they feel. But she also went through some other possibilities of what possibly could account for the way I am.

[31:00]

I don't know how many she came up with, but I think in the end she found out that almost all of them were her imagination. And I didn't go through the list and say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Just let, that's all her imagination really, almost all, something to do with, something to do with me, a little bit each case, you know. Like if I had been there and you noticed you weren't there, probably, maybe I would have. So now we have this case of Nancy wondering, is there some kind of like thing about me leaning back by wearing these robes, right? right it's not really full but you know getting there so here's my experience is I was I wore I put these on in the early morning and then I and then I went to meditation and then I went back to my cabin and studying and I intended to change my robes, but I got so interested in studying about ants, which I'd really like to tell you about, but anyway, I was studying about ants, and I was also reading about sensual pleasure and so on, that I forgot to change my robes.

[32:15]

And when I came in the door here, I thought, whoops, it's going to be hot. So, Oh, no, the temperature. Is that one of the reasons? No, yeah. The main reason why I change my robes is the main reason why I change my robe when I come over here is because it's hotter. It's so hot. And my other clothes are cooler. Because otherwise, I have to change my clothes twice, right? Only to change it once if I didn't change over here. So actually... it's slightly inconvenient to change to come over here. But I do it because it gets hot towards the latter part of the meeting. So I actually intended to do it and I was going towards the bathroom to do it but then something came up and I went over and sat at my desk for a while and I didn't realize that I'd forgotten until I walked in the door.

[33:25]

So it wasn't, but I think it's wonderful that you thought so. You're checking out, that's good, but also you thought something. Now you didn't think that this meant that I was leaning forward, did you? Did you think maybe it was that I wasn't doing either? Okay, well, I don't know if I was leaning backward or forward. I hate to say that I think I was perfectly balanced. But I tell you, I was kind of looking forward to this discussion. Not so much just that I'm interested in it, but I thought, you know, Jackie really wanted to talk about it. So finally, we're not going to rush through this topic. Right? How's it going so far? It's going pretty good.

[34:26]

Is there any questions you have about this issue and this business of sex and all that that you'd like to bring up It's sensual, but sexual, I think, is, you know, sexual is the most, what was the word? The most something application. Most marked application in the sphere of sexual. You know, the face that launched a thousand ships, you know that expression? Well, this lady named Helen, you know, she had an affair over in Athens or in Greece. Yeah, she had this affair with Paris and then a thousand ships came.

[35:28]

So sex is often the source of sex and drugs, these two addictions. When they're used addictively, they often lead to horrendous results. Much more, much more. You don't get as much trouble for taking a croissant as you do for taking some, you know, somebody's husband or wife. Right? You don't. It's not just, right, the thoughts themselves, right. The karma is, actions are body, speech, and thought. And thought comes first. So how do you stop that from arising? be devoted to the devotion which is usually applied to distracting yourself from what's happening.

[36:35]

That attachment to ways of distracting yourself from what's happening. You try to get yourself to be devoted to paying attention to what's happening. You form like almost an attachment to what's going on. And you learn to do that in such a way that you really feel encouraged to do it again and again and again until finally you have continuity in that practice. So you can steadily stay balanced as you walk into pleasure and pain. And you do it in such a way that there's, you know, you learn to do it in such a way that you are encouraged by that practice, you feel joy in that practice. It should be joyful. So in this thing here, in this definition, and in also this book here, The Middle-Length Sayings, there's a chapter called Mass of Ill, where he talks about the gratification, the dangers, and the escape

[37:53]

in the case of sensual pleasure. And, you know, the Buddha's teaching is very much about being happy. He's really into, like, people being happy and peaceful and nonviolent and having a good time living and not causing lots of trouble. And he's saying, in various places he's saying, And in this one, in graphic detail, the horrendous situation you get into, that you can get into when you attach to sensual pleasures, when you're acting appropriately in relationship to pleasure. So if you practice in relationship to pleasure in an upright fashion, you will be happier and happier and happier the more you do it. And when you're happy enough, the thought doesn't even arise anymore.

[39:00]

But to try to stop the thought arising, to try to go around and try to stop the thought, that is What? That's turning away. That's self-mortification. You shouldn't go around trying to stop yourself from thinking of sex or pleasure or stop yourself from thinking of indulging in it or distracting yourself. You should rather do something positive called pay attention to what's happening and do it in such a way that you feel good about it. I almost feel like I'm violating that law by being here in this workshop. Yes, how so? It's my way of escaping my reality, perhaps. To me this is very essential. To me this is very gratifying.

[40:07]

Yes. So is it inappropriate? And there's also so many subtleties. Yes. I can say I want to be here. Yes. I'm in a learning situation. Mm-hmm. I think we can turn away from reality very easily. Yes. We can turn away from reality very easily. Exactly. And the information we give ourselves is that we're suffering because we're ignorant. So we're basically telling ourselves all the time that we're anxious. We're afraid of these other people and other things. So it's very easy to turn away from that. And we have to find a way, in some sense, this first talk of Buddha is just trying to encourage people to turn back to face what's happening and stop using things to distract themselves from being balanced.

[41:19]

because it's very easy for us to distract ourselves from being balanced. Very easy, as you say. And you may have come here. It's possible that your motivation in coming here was that you were turning away from some difficulty. It's possible. That's the way a lot of people approach monasteries, is as a kind of escape. And then when they get there, they keep trying to escape. But if it's a good monastery and good fellow practitioners and teachers, gradually you're supported to stop running away in the monastery. And if you learn how to not run away, that's great. And then you leave the monastery and go back into the city and show people what it's like to be somebody who's not running away from her life. But maybe your initial motivation to go to the monastery was an escape thing, but that's not The attempt to get away is not escape. Real escape happens when you stop trying to escape and you look at what's happening.

[42:22]

But maybe you couldn't do that back in San Francisco. So you came here and maybe you can start doing it here. And if you can do it here, that would be great. And maybe you can continue to do it when you leave. But it's very easy not to do it. we have, many of us have very well established habits of turning away from what's happening, of trying to escape from what's happening. Trying to escape from what's happening keeps you right in the middle, keeps you right in the situation of suffering. It doesn't, it isn't escape actually. But it doesn't, but trying to escape doesn't like put you upright in the middle of suffering. It just creates more suffering. which you get back in your face. Try to escape, you get another slap. Try to escape, you get another slap. But accepting the slap and seeing what it feels like and having respect for it, or accepting the pleasure and having respect for it, this is the escape from suffering.

[43:27]

So this thing, this massive ill scripture talks about what is the gratification of sensual pleasure, what is the danger, and what is the escape. There's a simple definition of gratification is basically you occasionally get what you want. It does happen, and that's gratification. You get to taste the sweet thing. You get to be near the pleasant object. You get to feel the enjoyment. That is gratification of sensual desire. You get to feel it. But there's a huge section on the dangers, and they're all dangers in the sense they're all unhappy things that that can happen when we misuse sensual pleasure. And the gratification section is very short. It's basically just that in the realm of sexual, sensual, whatever pleasure, basically you just let it be what it is. Then you're practicing the middle way and that is the escape from the dangers. But it's also the escape just simply, it's freedom from sensuality.

[44:33]

Yes, yes. Can escape be useful if, for example, through that escape, you see that you're escaping? You mean, can the attempt to escape, can the impulse to escape be helpful? Let's say I'm traumatized with something. Yes. And somebody, and then I, through sensual pleasures, comfort, I can just be like, oh, I'm retreating, I've got to get out of here. And so I'm escaping. But then when I have that moment to, you know, I don't know, I realize some things, and I realize I'm escaping. Well, the story you just told, I thought the moment you had was in a moment when you stopped trying to escape, where you're just... Yeah, you got it by stopping.

[45:41]

Yeah, you got it by stopping. But it was the stopping that did the trick. Right? In your story, I heard you say, I stopped. You had to escape to stop? Well, you attempted to escape. That didn't do you any good. What did you good, that hurt you, actually. What did you good was to stop. If you'd stopped previously, that would have done you good then. So I'm just saying, when you do the right thing, then it's good to do the right thing. Certain resources allow easier to stop than others. I disagree. And that's the problem, as we think. We think, see what she said, certain resources easier to than other times. I disagree. I'm saying you've got to train yourself to say not certain resources, this I'm gonna practice now. I'm not gonna wait till later to practice.

[46:42]

Here I am miserable, I'm not gonna practice now. I'm not gonna stop now and be released. I'm gonna wait till I get across the street and sit down. Then I'm gonna start practicing. You may not get across the street. Don't postpone it. It's fine. Yeah, but still, if you would practice now, you wouldn't have to run across the street. You're saying, I can't practice now, and you're saying there's some benefit to running across the street. I think you missed a chance, myself. You could have practiced before you ran across the street. But if after you run across the street, you practice then, I say, well, now you're doing it good. I'm saying when you practice is good and when you miss a chance to practice is not... I don't think you should say that that's good. It's the practice that's good, not the running away. So we say, is it, what do you call it? Should you smoke when you're praying? No. Just pray. Should you escape when you're praying? No. Just pray.

[47:43]

Just be there. But should you pray when you're smoking? Yes. So before you escape, you can practice. While you're escaping, you can practice. After you escape, you can practice. No matter when it is, you can practice. Train yourself at not waiting until later to practice. So now I'm traumatized, I can practice. Now I'm escaping, I can practice. Now I'm in a comfortable situation I can practice. You can practice in all the situations, so do them then. And you can say escaping can be useful. Well, escaping is an opportunity. Before escaping is an opportunity, after escaping is an opportunity. Everything that happens is an opportunity, is a door to the truth, everything. That's the samadhi of the middle way. always being delivered an occasion to practice.

[48:50]

If you missed the chance, okay, I missed, I confess, fine. That's good. Now you can do it. No? Yeah, what about it? It's fine to bring people to a space. It's fine to offer people a space, okay? But to say I'm offering a space that would be a little easier for them, easier than what? Am I with them in the other situation that, you know? And I think this is this situation and this situation is easier, okay? Is that my attitude? Well, I say, I say, no. I may never get them into the other space. I want to help them now. Now, and I say, okay, let's go over here and sit in the shade. That's fine. Why do I go in the shade?

[49:54]

Not because it's easier, but because I want to be in the shade with them. If I say that, I'm making the wound a little deeper. When you find the person, when you find yourself, work on yourself now. And then from that, you can go sit someplace else. But it's coming not from running away, but actually from not running away. From not running away, you can do a lot of things. You name it, practically. You can go to Brazil from not running away. You don't have to run away to go to Brazil. And you don't have to run away from Brazil to get back to San Francisco. But you can. You can just go running. You can say, this situation isn't quite right. That one over there I'll be able to practice. That one over there I'll be able to practice. And just keep transferring it down the line, and you keep missing these chances.

[50:54]

It isn't that that's better. It really isn't. People think that, but it's not true. It's not true that the other situation is easier or that easier is better. It's just what we think. Let's work with this. Isn't that hard? Did you have your hand raised from a long time ago, Lilian? Is it still? Well, you know, that's interesting. The word devotion, you know, it has a religious quality. So I don't know what the Pali was, but they chose an English word that has mostly religious overtones or undertones or connotations. So it's almost like we have a religious, it's kind of a religious thing going on here.

[51:59]

It's just off. So that devotion to these side roads, the devotion is good. Being devoted is good. Can we have the devotion not be to going away, but the devotion to be here? That same devotion that we use to distract ourselves, could we use it to not distract ourselves, to use this situation? So I think that's right. I think this is all about This is all spiritual. We are basically fundamentally underneath our animal trips. We are basically spiritual beings. The Buddha didn't wake up and say, oh yeah, you're all animals. The Buddha woke up and said, all you animals are basically spiritual beings. That's the Buddha's insight. So all this stuff is really just spiritual development. And and those things which make possible opportunities for spirit to live in the flesh.

[53:02]

Salvi's next. In order not to abuse sexuality, I observe the precepts to see if I'm not healing lying. By healing I mean killing somebody's spirit or lying or intoxicated with alcohol or being possessive, etc. That's kind of a guide for me. But in the case that you were saying that here are two people that they know they're attracted to each other, and there is some anxiety growing, and you say the way to touch them, then you... you will cut through that anxiety, but you would be... I believe you mentioned abusing sexuality. I feel like it is, yeah. So I wonder, you know, here are the two people, you know, they're attracted to each other and things are happening, so when, you know, they can... LAUGHTER LAUGHTER

[54:08]

He's wondering about that. He's got a good point. It's a good point. Okay, here's a story. It's one of the first Zen stories I read, I think, or one of the first Zen books I read. It's called Zen and the Art of Archery. Okay? So this German man named Harigo went to Japan and he studied archery. Okay? Okay? And the teacher said, you pull the bowstring back and you hold it until the bowstring goes by itself. You don't let go of it. You wait until it goes by itself. And he said, when it goes, it will be like the string goes through your fingers. That's what it will be like. So he held that. He practiced I don't know how long. many hours anyway, practice, waiting for the bowstring to go. What?

[55:19]

Yeah, poor Salvi, right. So then he thought, oh, I know how to do it. What I'll do is I'll just hold it half as strong, and then I'll hold it half as strong again. And then I'll hold it half as strong again and half as strong again. And then eventually it'll just go. I won't let go of it. It'll just go. And he did that. And it just went at a certain point. And the teacher saw it. He saw him do that. He said, out. Get out of this practice place. No, no, no. Get out. And he came back many times to try to get back in. The teacher wouldn't let him. I don't know how long it took. Does anybody know? I think a couple of years he kept coming back. And finally the teacher said, okay. And he came back and he just pulled his bow and he just held it. And he didn't play any more tricks.

[56:22]

And one day the string went. And he said it was like it went through his fingers. That's what you learn in that practice, right? So you're like this. And you wait for the arm to go out. But you don't put it out there for some kind of distraction. it's just like Betty was saying, it's like, it's really just a gift. Now, is it a gift sort of in the disguise of trying to get rid of your anxiety? You have to watch that. And if there's a teacher there, teacher kicks you out of the school because you're pretending like it's a gift. Oh, this is for you. This is for your sake. This isn't because I can't stand this situation. So, it does happen sometimes that still there is this anxiety, and sometimes there is touching, but it's really not to try to get rid of your anxiety. It really is because you think this is an expression of love, not an expression of getting away from your suffering.

[57:25]

But what people do is they cover their motivation to avoid their suffering with, this is love. It's really just an attempt to get something to distract yourself and you say it's love. That's not love. Love is to be concerned with what's good for this person. What would be beneficial to this person? It would be probably really beneficial for you to stay there and tell this person, you know, show this person how anxious you are. And that person may say, well, I know how to get rid of the anxiety. And you say, I know you do. And I do too. But I respect you so much. I want to wait until I'm not, I'm not sort of like trying to like use this situation to avoid how I feel with you. I want to just feel what I feel like with you. Maybe we have to sit across the room for each other for a while. Yeah. I sometimes, I feel like sometimes I have touched someone or someone has touched me and I did it not because I was trying to cause an effect, not because I was trying to get away from something, but I felt like it really would help them to touch them.

[58:44]

Like it would really, it really would be supportive. It really would confirm their sense that somebody cared about them and I didn't feel any anxiety and it wasn't cutting through anything. It was just a gift. But other times I can feel like, ooh, it would be so nice just to sort of like touch and not stay in the situation or get out of here. Like if there was some way to get out of here without being, you know, hurting the person's feelings or looking stupid, you know. Anyway, anything but here. And there's one, so you can leave or you can touch and then it's gone. Pardon? Yeah. And so, and they can feel it and then sometimes they feel it and sometimes they feel respected until that moment. And then they feel like you're using them. You're using them to avoid your life.

[59:50]

And that's not a respectful response to people. Whereas actually they're helping you tremendously already and you just finally say, no thank you. I've had enough of this. It's too much for me. I don't have the confidence in this. So I'm going to cut through it. which just happens to make me more relaxed. That's my agenda. But again, oftentimes it works because what happens after you touch is it creates this whole new thing, which then you can't even, you know, it inundates your anxiety. So then you don't feel it anymore for a while. And then some point later in time, well, of course, it comes flooding back in. And it also says in there that the pleasure is nothing compared to the regret. Now, sometimes pleasure is much greater than the regret because there's no regret. It's just pleasure. And it's not something you're using to distract yourself. It's just flat-out pleasure. But it wasn't an addictive thing.

[60:52]

You weren't using it to distract yourself from your life. It's just pleasure. There's no regret for that pleasure. That just comes to you. It's just a gift. And you just say thank you. And you say thank you again. And thank you again. Thank you, thank you, thank you. This is not thank you and then use this to distract yourself from your pain. Thank you. Here I am suffering and I feel some pleasure. That's nice. Thank you. Here I am suffering and I see you and I like you and you're pleasant to see. Thank you. Also thank you to the unpleasant things too. I heard somebody say, I don't know, I think it was, I don't know, one of these... One of these Israeli generals, I think it was, and he said, what is it, something like, five minutes of shooting, ten years of misery. It feels good, you know, for a few minutes, get feeling an appetite, just a few bullets, you know.

[61:54]

It feels kind of good to get it off your chest, you know, shoot some people. But then ten years of misery. So this grasping thing is a nice distraction for a few seconds or a few minutes or five minutes or whatever, and then there can be a big time. Again, it's not that there's something wrong with sexuality. Nothing wrong with sexuality. Sex is okay. The Buddha didn't say sex was bad. Sex is how you make Buddhas and bodhisattvas. That's how you do it. you know, in terms of the ones in the world. It's not bad. Sex is fine. It's using it inappropriately. It doesn't say sex is bad. It says using it inappropriately, using it in a harmful way, using it in a way that turns you a little or a lot away from what it's like to be who you are right now. That's all. That's the problem. And not doing that and also not, you know, on either side,

[62:57]

Not doing that is the middle way. It isn't instantly enlightenment, but it will gradually open up to show you reality if you start facing what's happening. Then comes the noble truths. It isn't that as soon as you stop distracting yourself, suddenly everything swells. No, the first thing you start seeing is anxiety. So it's not like you get this immediate super reward. What you get is the opportunity to practice. and you go first noble truth. But then you get to see the second noble truth, and then you get to see the third noble truth. In other words, you get freedom from suffering. You get to see reality. Ultimate reality is freedom from suffering. We have to face the conventional world where we have attachments and ignorance and suffering. And the middle way is how we face it in a way that we can sustain that meditation. Yeah, Scott.

[64:06]

in this culture where there's a very complex world going on. And everyone has this honor to be free, to be happy, to be relieved of something. All the marketeers are very happy about ways to relieve us of something. Do this now, eat this now, buy this car. look great, and so forth. And most of us buy into this worldly dharma of what is for us to lead the spiritual hunger, to be free, to be happy. And it's a very powerful, seductive dharma that we all grow up with. It's a part of our way of breathing, effectively. And middle way is not just the opposite of that. It totally undermines and dissolves the Buddha Dharma. Like you said, there's nothing in it for you. There's nothing in it for you.

[65:17]

We're always out for what's in it for me. That's why I get out of this. I just sat by this food, out of this moment. And it seems to me like the very subtlety of this middle way. It's not going to pay off, you know. The price of the middle way and Well, the middle way does sort of lead to a way that is sort of better than nice car and so on. It doesn't sell as well. Well, that's only temporary. What's going to sell better and better? Right? You people are going to sell the middle way, right?

[66:17]

It's going to become a more popular product. So Lillian and Stella and Lucetta and Carolyn. Linnea, sorry. I wanted to ask you about something that, I think you said it earlier, and I really was taken by your question, how to do it. Well, let me set the context of this question. In the process of self-occupation and self-stubble, which was sort of a limited process, obviously, But there's a story behind it. Because we sat down, I sat down at this table with people representing us. It was silent, but there was some powerful silence for me.

[67:21]

And I thought something just happened. Maybe they didn't quite. I couldn't tell. And I was starting to experience a lot of anxiety. And I was watching my projection, not Could I say something else you said? You said, I looked at you in a certain way. Yeah, I think that's helpful. It was the whole thing. And I saw Rev, and I didn't even notice the other two people at the table. And I thought, oh, Rev's there, and I'll sit down. So there was this sort of feeling, maybe a little sensual indulgence. And I didn't experience it that way. I would just enjoy having dinner with you. So I sat down, and I said hello to Jackie.

[68:26]

And I smiled at Rev. And I thought this, I don't know how many of you have been a formal focus on that. Yeah. So there was no smile back. So I think, oh no, what did I do that was the first time? But when I was, because of the teaching and because of practice, I was aware of, I was watching my reactions. And I was watching my, essentially my projection. I mean, first I was projecting a certain authority on you, and I was watching, I was watching that. And I was watching those projections kind of go by. But then when I was really beginning to experience, when I saw, okay, those are my projections, I own those. Those land, I have no idea what's going on with you. I did that, did everything. But then at some point, I really was feeling a sense of real discomfort with this silence.

[69:33]

And there was a question again. And as I was feeling that discomfort, I started also having reactions to that, which was, well, why isn't Rev doing anything about this silence? So there was some flashback. What's the problem here with Rev? So I mean, I could keep going because, you know, this kind of self, this kind of self thing. Rev, she was also giving me looks like, what's going on? She was kind of saying to you, would you please tell me what's going on? Adding to the anxiety that she was having because she kept Yeah, like, don't ask me. I don't know. Had Nancy not spoken, I would have spoken because the, I was really grappling with the question of, um, apartment paying is enough.

[71:08]

This was a really uncomfortable situation for me. And I had already gone through the fact that I was trying to take responsibility for my response. But I'm really feeling incredibly uncomfortable. I mean, I was getting to the point where I wanted to get up and leave or say something. And I was grappling with what do I say and how do I say it? And I guess the question goes back to this idea of self-mortification, which is When is being present with pain and staying in a certain relationship to that pain, which in that instance would have been sitting there and being quiet, not helpful? Say it again.

[72:09]

When is what? When is sitting with pain, sitting as you sort of tease away the layers of reactivity and start getting down to... to a more essential anxiety or pain. Could I stop you a second? Just sit right there. You said, tease away the reactivity? Well, it's by looking at it. Right, okay. And teasing away the reactivity, I think, could be seen as avoiding the extremes. Yeah. So you're sitting there. Somehow you sat there and you became aware of anxiety. And then you started to get into reactivity for a while. And then you stopped doing that for a while. Maybe you stopped doing that. Maybe you did. And you stopped getting into the reactivity to the basic discomfort that you noticed by sitting around at that table.

[73:11]

Right. It's huge. This discomfort is huge. But if there's no reactivity, I would say, it's fine. And then you can just, yes? Had I spoken about that, and had I said, and I'm basically feeling extraordinary discomfort here, would that have been escaping? You'd have to see for yourself at that time, whether that was like verbal reactivity, or whether you were like saying, Again, like I said, you know, the example, somebody's in the practice period, you know, and they're really uncomfortable and they say, I'm leaving. You know, you could have stood up and said, I'm leaving too. And if you had, I bet Jackie and Nancy and I would have known what you're talking about. We would have known. You were saying, this is really uncomfortable. You know, we're not laughing it up here. There's no, we're not taking any drugs. We're like just sitting here suffering. And if you'd got up and said, I'm out of here, I think I would have said, I understand, it's tough, isn't it, sitting at this table?

[74:14]

This is like, you know. But you didn't get up and leave, but you could have. And that probably, that might have been that you were trying to escape, but it might have been that you're saying, you stood up and said, you know, I sat here, I felt some discomfort, I moved into reactivity, I dropped the reactivity, I settled back into this huge pain, I completely settled, I woke up, and I'm now leaving to go start another Zen center. You know? And this is like, I can't tell you people how grateful I am for this opportunity. Now, you can tell me when you think it's the pain. I don't think the pain is ever too much. So there is no possibility in that situation of self-mortification? The self-mortification is a reactivity. It's like, I'm doing something wrong, or what did I do... If you're into the pain of the reactivity, reactivity loses its function and you're back at home base again with this huge pain.

[75:19]

We choose reactivity because we think, how about taking this little pain like I'm bad girl rather than like, you know, and you get to choose one way to be a bad girl like you're Ms. Zazen, right? Rather than the inconceivable number of ways you could be a bad girl that I could be thinking you're a bad girl. They're all there. When you drop these particular little problems like he's on this trip or I did this thing wrong or like trying to like, what people often do is they start chatting as a way to get away from it, which somehow you could, nobody did, but we could have done that as another way. But nobody was cutting it. Everybody was feeling it. And When Nancy spoke, she has to look to see, and she did talk about that, whether she was running away from the pain or whether she was just wanting to contact. You can reach, and that's exactly the same thing that I was talking about. You're in a painful situation. Do you speak to distract yourself from the pain or do you speak as an act of a positive thing you'd like to say?

[76:24]

I'd like to say this. I'd like to say, today is Monday. You know, that's all I want to say. And it wasn't to distract myself. So again, I said, people come to me in the middle of the practice period and they say, I'm suffering. Or anyway, and I want to leave. Or they come and just say, I want to leave. And I say, you settle. You know, you drop that reactivity. And when you're settled, if you come to me and say, I'm settled here. I'm grateful for my life right now. I'm having difficulty, but I'm grateful to be alive. I'm settled here. I'm facing my life, and I want to leave. I would say, you have my 100% support. That's terrific. Go do it. Take the walk over the mountain and bring your practice to the people on the other side of the mountain. But if the person's in reactivity, I say, just stay here until the reactivity drops away. When you're settled, if in your settledness you want to leave,

[77:26]

And you can say to me, I just want to leave. I'm not trying to get away from anything. And I say, great. And so you have to look in yourself to see, are you trying to get away from the pain? So in Nancy's case, when she spoke, she was like, I think, honest about looking at that. And she, I don't know if you were 100% sure. You were a little bit, I think you said you were a little bit unsure. Yeah, right. She wasn't sure if she was... leaving the anxiety or the pain of the discomfort of the situation or just simply wanting to relate to the other people at the table. You can relate to people not using them to avoid your life. It's possible, fortunately. I just want to add one thing. The actual experience of her saying that opened up a very rich and intimate Yeah, it did.

[78:29]

Right. Right. And the silence did, too. They both did. Right. Yeah. there was a teaching in that silence. Thanks. Yeah. Oh, she said, well, you say what you have to say. I don't exactly remember, but I think I identified my answer. I'm not really sure whether this is trying to end this Yeah. Right.

[79:31]

And one way, another way to check is, if you're tuned into your, if you're settled with your anxiety and you speak, did your awareness of your anxiety evaporate? If it did, That's kind of, you know, an indication that although your motivation might not have been off, in fact, you're in reactivity. If you're in touch with this huge pain that we all share, and then you speak and you lose touch of that, your feet are off the ground, you know, and you're into reactivity. But if your feet can stay on the ground, and you can stay with this thing that we share, and still talk, then I think you're not into reactivity. You're not using your speech as a distraction from our human situation. So check it out. And it turns out that you can talk and stay in touch, and you can also talk and lose track of it.

[80:40]

That's why I say, when I'm talking to you, I hope that you stay in touch with your compassion. Because if you lose touch of your compassion when I'm talking about these teachings, they're just going to run off you, because your feet are off the ground. But if you keep your feet rooted in your basic human situation of sharing this thing that we're sharing, this human dilemma, and you practice compassion with that, you're settled, then these teachings will go right into you. And they'll go right through you, you know, because you're grounded. But if you forget, or if I forget... while you're listening or while I'm talking or while you're talking and I'm listening or whatever, if you forget that, if your speech distracts you, then your speech is kind of like an indulgence in an extreme. So that means that you may have to talk slowly and carefully to check as you speak whether you're losing track of yourself as you speak. That's part of what usually helps you to learn to talk without losing track of yourself while you're talking.

[81:47]

So let's see, maybe Lucetta, Carolyn, and John, and who else? Diana did? Actually, I was just going to ask if you wanted some more water. Was that your question? Yes, please. But only because you asked. No, not really, but it depends on you to ask. Lucetta. I have two provocations. We've talked a lot about devotion, and you've talked about a lot in the past in terms of relationships, and now today in terms of what we're talking about. So I just wanted some of the provocation of how it's connected to attachment. And my thinking is that devotion, like with an addiction, is attachment. Devotion with... that the devotion is devotion to an addiction, then that's what we call attachment? Do you get confused?

[82:52]

No, I think the way I feel is that attachment is more basic than this devotion to these extremes. Attachments are basic. Then there's thirst for these extremes. Okay? In other words, pardon? Yes. So anyway, because of ignorance, we have thirst for the other. Because of ignorance, there's an other. Because there's an other, we thirst for the other. We thirst for the other because it's us. You know? It's a wonderful book. It's called A Famished Road. Famished Road. It starts out something like, in the beginning, there was the unborn.

[83:53]

And the unborn was like a river. And then it became covered over by a road. And the road covered everything. But because the road was originally a river, it was famished and hungry. So we live in this hungry road, you know? We made a world where stuff's out there, and we hunger, we thirst to get in touch with what's us, which we've separated from ourself. So there's thirst. So then there's clinging. So then there's suffering, okay? And it's a perpetual, it just keeps going round and round. And then because we're suffering, then all the more we don't dare look at the truth because it's bad enough now. I'm not going to look at the truth. So the ignorance happens again. So then there's more out there and more thirst and more craving and more attachment and more suffering. And then again, face the truth? No. And around and around we go.

[84:56]

That's the basic situation. That's what we have to study. Not easy to study. Easy to go into reaction and distract ourselves. I'm ignorant. I've got enough problems. I don't have to look at my ignorance. I'm suffering. I've got enough problems. You don't expect me to look at it. Give me a break. So that's a basic situation. There's already attachment there. So when we meet another person, we already are involved in attachments. Practicing devotion to the other person is starting to turn around and look at the basic situation. which is me, except from you, me being in pain about that, me trying to get free of that. Well, how about you? How about thinking about your welfare rather than my reactivity to my suffering? Think about you. That brings me back to start facing my problems.

[85:57]

That reduces reactivity and it goes, it's another way to approach avoiding these extremes. Because these extremes are not for other people's benefit. It doesn't help other people for us to mortify ourselves and to be indulging in addictions. They're not asking us to do that. Unless they're asking you to do it as a way to, you know, excuse for them to do it. So that's why sometimes you're with someone around sexuality and they want to, you know, have you help them not do their job. So you say, yeah, go ahead. You don't have to respect me. I'm not respectable. Treat me like an object. It's okay. I don't mind. Go ahead. They don't really mean that, but that's what they say. But anyway, devotion is our nature. Let's use it in the right place. And our habitual way of using it is strongly established, so we're making our, you know, our attempts to develop a new kind of devotion, a devotion to paying attention to what's happening, a devotion to the middle way.

[87:10]

Who's next? John? As we sit with our anxiety and pain and yes well I hope it doesn't lead to diminish no if you practice compassion properly it should not lead to a diminishment of your awareness of the pain didn't you say awareness Well, you said awareness and it doesn't... I can't say that it won't reduce the pain because to some extent, like Anne was saying yesterday, if you have pain and you react to it, in some sense you have pain on top of pain.

[88:16]

So it may take away some additional layers that you put on by resisting. But the original pain may not be altered by your practice of compassion with it. It may be pretty much the same. And what a lot of people experience is it seems to increase because your awareness increases. As you come off your addictions, I was talking to a man today. It's been two years, he says, it's been two years today that I stopped my drugs and alcohol. And he says, I'm starting to come alive. So that partly means starting to suffer, you know, starting to feel the rawness of what it's like to be a human being. And some people are really, really wonderfully raw, and they somehow manage to not run away from that. It's wonderful. that they dare to be alive, that they embrace this raw, sensitive way of being that they are.

[89:26]

So sometimes people, as they start to meditate, feel even more aware of it. But the Buddhas are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, keep it up. This is great. This is what we all did. Come on, keep it up. And practicing patience, in a sense, makes you more comfortable with your pain, but it doesn't exactly reduce the pain level. It just makes you more comfortable with it because you're putting your energy into relaxing and being nice to yourself while you're suffering. So if somebody's suffering, it's okay to, like, say I love you and give them a massage and make them comfortable. That doesn't necessarily distract them from the pain. It just makes them feel supported as they're suffering. So if someone's suffering, we don't just say, well, suffer. No, actually, we should give them love, not to promote their suffering, but to support and promote their compassion with themselves while they're suffering. Help them settle. Help them realize that there's love there even while they're suffering.

[90:29]

They're not just suffering alone. All the Buddhas are with them, and we're representing the Buddhas by being kind to them while they're suffering. Yeah. Again, I say this over and over. In order to do this very deep work of the middle way, of facing our basic situation of anxiety, we have to feel supported in a big way by something big. I hear that the Buddha's teaching is we are supported by the mind that wants us to face what we need to face, learn what we need to learn, and therefore be very happy once we learn what's happening. But it's hard work to face this stuff, and it's easy to get into reactivity. So part of it is to be gentle with ourselves and others when they go into reactivity.

[91:32]

You know? So, somebody looks at me and they think, you know, that I'm hating them. Well, I have to be patient with the fact that they think I'm hating them, even though maybe I don't feel the slightest hate. Maybe I love them very much, but they think I hate them because they're in pain and they're looking for some other way than just the pain. The endless, huge pain. They want to have a small one called called whatever. I was reading the Houston Zen Center newsletter and two people were talking. One of them was receiving the Bodhisattva precepts later this year. There's going to be a ceremony there. And one guy wrote an article in the newsletter about that process of receiving the precepts. And he said, you know, he's this guy that's going to give me the precepts. I don't even know if he likes me. He doesn't know.

[92:38]

But he didn't say he hates me. He just said, I don't know if he likes me. And he's dealing with the fact that he doesn't know if I like him. But, you know. The question is, am I devoted to him, and is my life just about helping him practice these precepts? And that I can say, that's my life. That's what I'm here for, is to help him practice those precepts. Whether I like him or not is really small potatoes. It's not really important to me. My wife says to me, you have just the disciples you deserve. Fortunately, they're not selected by me. They're the people who want to practice.

[93:47]

Those are the right people. There may be a lot of people out there who I really like, but they're not interested in practicing. So, that's it. But still, do you like me or not? Right? My breath can depend on nobody sitting next to me at dinner. It's really weird. You're at this table and like everybody is at the other end facing you. It was a good meal, though. That was what happened last night, too. You know what I was doing at the table? I was eating. It was good. And just I wanted to mention this one other thing, and that was there was a tendency somewhere in the room to think that I was making the silence.

[94:53]

So I'm sometimes in a big group of people and something's happening, and I get the feeling like the people think that I'm making it happen. And sometimes they're angry at me for making it happen, but sometimes they're angry at the fact that how come I get to make it happen? Because they think so. That's why. Evan? Well, I'm just listening to that. It's not the silence that's painful, it's the anxiety. When there's not somebody saying, you know, I love you, a bushel and a peck, then, you know, Maybe they don't. It's the workings of our mind.

[96:00]

If somebody's not saying something positively affirming, then we could possibly think, well, maybe they don't like me. Now, sometimes they start talking and they're kind of like in a bad mood, you know, and maybe they're kind of, in particular, irritated with us. But then we're not anxious so much. We're just feeling bad that they don't like us. But at least we got it clear, this person doesn't like me. But in the silence, there's many ways that they could not like you. Plus, it's also possible that they do like you. It's just like a vast unknown. In fact, there is a vast unknown. And even though we start talking, it's still all around us, fortunately. We can't do anything about it. You know, it's completely supporting us. And we don't know how, but it is. And some people actually think, well, it's not supporting me, or only certain parts of it is supporting me. But the thing is, you don't know how it's supporting you. So it all is supporting you.

[97:02]

And we'd like to make it into something that we can get a hold of. So we do. And then we suffer. Because we'd rather suffer with this small little chunk than have this vast unknown. But we have to get used to this vast unknown. And the price of admission to the vast unknown is a school of anxiety. Voluntarily walk through that door, which happens to be right in front of your face all day long. Go into that door, that school of anxiety, and just walk down that road and you will become intimate with that anxiety, you will become a good student of that anxiety, and you will become free of that anxiety. to walk this path, you need to feel supported. You can't just do it by being some tough meditator, some super powerful yogi. Nobody's strong enough to face this. We need support. And if you are devoted to others and yourself, you can feel that they support you.

[98:08]

Okay? But if you don't feel their support, this is too hard, too hard to do such a thing. So ask for support if you want support. Okay? Thank you for patiently waiting. There might be another metaphor for support and a way of experiencing it. pleasure of the kind Lillian was referring to, the kind that has a spiritual dimension in it. The bellicose that accustomed me is music. I've had this music many here may have seen with a very large group, which is some Sunday music.

[99:09]

make the music together, it is a form of exaltation. So I have a little worry about, is that a turning away? Is that a form of sensual pleasure that may distract us from the basic situation? But at the same time, it has a richness and a beauty that is a gift, because when the music's done, it's done. We don't own it. but it's not like that. And the last thing I wanted to say about that is also a metaphor for some kinds of sexual experience that have a spiritual dimension. Would these people more turn away in this caption? Anything can be an opportunity for turning away and anything can be an opportunity for not turning away. Everything that happens is an opportunity to turn away or walk into the truth.

[100:20]

Depends on your attitude. So the exaltation of the sin you said also depends on the attitude with which you... Right, so we could sing a song now, and everybody could just be, you know, like, I want to give my voice to the song, and it's not going to lift me, it's not going to, I'm not doing this to get away from my suffering. I'll just, you know, join the song. And that could be like, you know, I'm not trying to get anything out of this or get away from anything, but it might be great. And I think our sexuality is omnipresent. It's always with us. So whenever we give with no agenda to escape our suffering by the giving but only wish to practice the joy of giving, you can practice, do something that you feel joyful about without trying to get away from what's happening. You can be completely settled with your suffering and do something you think would be really fun.

[101:26]

No problem. But if you do it, and as you do it you lose track of your your feet, then, although originally your motive was good, you lost it as you started to do it. And you slipped back into like, you know, trying to get something out of it. So then you slipped again. So we can always slip. We can always recover. There's always a possibility to learn the truth. And I think if you're exalted, you have your feet on the ground. I think exaltation doesn't mean anything unless you have your feet on the ground. I mean, exaltation means to become divine. Divinity is all around us, but it's for people that have their feet on the ground that exaltation means something. It's that you have your feet on the ground that you're exalted. Exalted isn't just being divine, it's being raised, lifted up into the divine. But that wouldn't have any meaning unless your feet are on the ground.

[102:30]

Buddha taught gods, you know. He was a teacher of gods, of divine beings. But they didn't have their feet on the ground. So they come to study to learn from the Buddha. How could they come down with us and still be happy? The Buddha was happy with us. The Buddha's happy in our situation. And that's an exaltation when we do it together. I read this thing about, you know, this little soundbite is, the unit of liberation is the individual. The unit of exaltation is the group. Did you hear the song? Is there any outstanding questions here?

[103:33]

Okay, well maybe this afternoon you can bring it up. Any songs you want to sing before we depart? Huh? Sorry. Still there. So, shall we kiss then? Shall we kiss each other? Now, did anybody get distracted by that?

[105:13]

Great, great. So you can kiss all you want as long as you don't distract yourself, okay? Thank you.

[105:37]

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