Good morning, everybody. Good morning. I'm pleased to introduce our guest speaker today, Reb Tenshin Anderson Roshi. Reb has actually been coming to teach us for a long time. He tells me, I thought he first came here in 1978, because it was in 1978 when I was president of Zen Center that I asked Katagiri Roshi if there were any Americans whom he felt we should bring in to teach us about Zen. And he said, there was one. And I said, who? And he said, Reb Anderson. And I said, well, he's from the Twin Cities. And he said, yes, and he has a lot to teach you. So Hojo-san brought him back year after year, and I'm delighted that he's here again. with us today. He has a couple of really informative books on Zen that many of us have been reading, and he travels around speaking and manifesting the Dharma wherever he is.

[01:09]

So on this moment he's with us, and we're just so grateful to have you here, Rep. Thank you. What's this? Actually, that's mine. It was left over from yesterday. It's not yours. I don't have to read this stuff. Mountain Seat Ceremony Zen Tetsu Timber Ket That's me. So yesterday they were having the ceremony and I said, I was asked to say something, so I said, Tsuzuku Roshi, your first teacher, would be proud of you and happy that you're accepting this invitation to be the abbot of the Zen Center.

[02:20]

And Tim made a vow that he would climb the mountain of difficulty with you, also I think go down into the pit of difficulty with you, and I think he does have the compassion and courage to do so. So I think that's a wonderful vow. And I think, as I said, I think you're blessed with the ability to do that with people. And Tim shares that with the ancient Zen masters who were willing to let go of the ultimate They realized the ultimate truth and they were willing to let go of it and enter the world of duality, joining hands with all of us and entering the mud and water and walking through birth and death with all beings.

[03:41]

day after day, practicing together intimately. And then they just want to help people become free. As they say, to knock out the pegs, pull out the nails, melt the glue, take off the saddlebags, and be free. And then they say, how can somebody be like that? How can they dare to enter intimately into birth and death with people? And the answer is, because they have ended all outflows. Pass this to the Eno. And so today I thought I would talk to you about the ending of outflows, what outflows are, and how to practice in such a way that they end.

[04:58]

Outflows is an ancient Buddhist technical term, actually. Elfblows is actually an English word, but it translates the Sanskrit expression, which is asarava. And in Pali, it's asava. And the root is sa, which means to flow. In the prefix, a could mean to make it flowing out, but some people think it means flowing in. But it means anyway the kinds of inflows and outflows of energy that tend to occur around certain kinds of grasping. And these, this turbulence and leakage that occurs around these points of grasping locks us into habitual patterns of birth and death and suffering.

[06:12]

When Shakyamuni Buddha first awoke, his initial awakening under the famous Bodhi tree, he realized several kinds of knowledge. Divine eye, divine ear, knowledge of past lives, knowledge of other people's minds, and knowledge of supernormal powers. These, I think, five or six forms of knowledge had been attained and can still be attained by yogis through very deep levels of concentration practice. But then he attained one more kind of knowledge which, as far as we know, hadn't been seen on this planet prior to that, which is the knowledge of the end of outflows, the knowledge of the extinction of outflows. Asarava Naroda Jnana.

[07:22]

This was his highest wisdom, highest knowledge that he attained, which opened his mind to his initial great enlightenment. Basically what the outflows are about is they occur at points, points of attachment around basically gain and loss, or existence and non-existence. A gain and loss when we experience gain, when we experience loss, this is actually a subjective evaluation of our consciousness. Something happens and our mind says, that's a gain for me or that's a gain for her.

[08:31]

It's a loss for me or it's a loss for her. If you watch a basketball series going on, the local team here is in the playoffs. If you watch that game, you might be able to see, oh, that team seems to have gained something, that team seems to have lost something. And then if you take sides, you may feel like, oh, I gained something and I lost something, or they gained something and I lost something. And actually people voluntarily put themselves in a situation where they'll feel like that, where they'll feel like, oh, I gained something, oh, I lost something, oh, I gained something, oh, I lost... They pay money to go and have that experience.

[09:34]

They think there's a chance that they'll have fun. One time there was a Super Bowl game going on in the country, and the teams that were playing were, and I live in the Bay Area, the teams that were playing were a Bay Area team, the Oakland Raiders, and they were playing the Minnesota Vikings. And some people asked me to come and watch the game, so I went and watched the game, but I realized before the game started, I could take either side. Because this is my, actually, home team is the Vikings, but also I live in the Bay Area, so I could root for Oakland. So I thought, I think I'll just kind of experiment with taking no sides, taking sides, and see what happens.

[10:43]

So taking no side is kind of like Why watch the TV then? I guess you could say, oh, they're really skillful, so I'll just watch all their skill. And then you might be able to actually just watch it without just watching these guys do their thing and sort of see how these human beings are behaving and watch the other people in the room, how they're behaving. So I actually did that for a while. It was kind of interesting. I don't know how long you'd like to do that, but for a while anyway, it's kind of interesting to watch people on the TV and in the room. But just watching without taking sides or feeling like you're gaining anything or losing anything, it's not necessarily very exciting. not very exciting necessarily, might be kind of like, oh, this is really interesting. Or you might start feeling actually kind of like alive, but not terribly excited, but kind of alive and alert.

[11:50]

So then I changed and I started to take sides. So I forgot which side I took first. But let's just say I took Oakland first. And then when Oakland, when I was on Oakland's side, when they scored a point or they did something good, I felt good. And when the Vikings did something well, I didn't feel so good. And also the people in the room were all for Oakland. So when Oakland did something good, they got really excited. So I thought, oh yeah, I'm excited with them. So then I switched over to the Minnesota side. And then when Minnesota did something good, I felt good. And when Oakland did something, I didn't feel so good. And also, when those people who were Oakland fans started to act certain ways, I thought they were kind of obnoxious. They weren't being very supportive of the Minnesota team. They weren't appreciative of the skill of the Minnesota players. Kind of rude, actually, and selfish. But that got saddened for me to be sort of looking down on all these stupid Raider fans, so I switched back to the Raider side and felt more comfortable.

[13:06]

But then I switched back again. I did that several times during the game just to see how quickly your mind can settle into some position And then you have these reactions because you take this position. And in some situations it's a little easier to switch back and forth. But when you can't switch back and forth and you're stuck on one side, then you'll experience these outflows and you'll start to feel more or less agitated and caught in that view, that position. And actually you feel like you cannot get out of it because it's like really the right position. I know this person whose brother is a stockholder in the Green Bay Packers. The Green Bay Packers football team is owned by the fans to a great extent.

[14:15]

And so this person is one of the owners of the Green Bay Packers, but he never can watch the games because he gets too upset. He has to wait until after the games are over for a few days to see what the score was because he's so upset about it. And I also think of that story, which a lot of you have heard, which, you know, people call it a Zen story. One of the nice things about Zen is because it's such a short word, a lot of the good stories, people say, is a Zen story. This is just a Chinese story, I think. But some people say, well, this is a Zen story. So it's about this guy, this man who lives in China, and his son gets on a horse. and falls off the horse. And all the people come and say, oh, Mr. Jung, so sorry your son fell off the horse.

[15:21]

It's so terrible that he fell off the horse and broke his leg. And we're so sorry. And he said, maybe so. And then the, oh no, I got the story wrong. This guy has a horse and the horse runs away. And people say, oh, we're so sorry you lost your horse. It's so terrible. And he said, maybe so. And then the horse comes back and brings a whole herd of wild horses with it. And people say, oh, you're so lucky you got all these horses. And he said, maybe so. And then his son gets on one of the wild horses and falls off and breaks his leg. And people say, oh, it's so terrible. And he says... Maybe so. Then the army comes to him and it drafts all the young men in the village, but they don't take his son because he got a broken leg. And people say, oh, you're so lucky you didn't take your son.

[16:22]

He says, maybe so. So anyway, these things happen and people are calculating gain and loss. So then it's like, oh, how terrible. Oh, how wonderful. Oh, how terrible. Oh, how wonderful. And so... The Buddha realized the knowledge of the end of that stuff. It's not the end. The mind may still calculate gain and loss because it does that. But it's possible to actually not fall for that stuff. To train your mind so that you don't get hung up on the gain and loss. And that's the end of outflows. Another way that this is spoken of sometimes is that the ordinary habitual response is that when you experience something pleasant, in other words, when your mind evaluates something as pleasant, then you become happy.

[17:36]

When your mind evaluates something as unpleasant, you become unhappy. When your mind evaluates something as a gain or getting something that you like, you get happy. When your mind calculates that you've lost something, you get unhappy. When people speak well of you or speak to you kindly and praise you, you get happy. When they speak to you, criticize you, and speak ill of you, you get unhappy. When you hear that people are speaking well of you, you get happy. When you hear that people are speaking badly about you, you feel unhappy. Does that sound familiar? Do you know some people like that? So this is a way to check in. That outflows there.

[18:39]

When you get happy, when something pleasant happens. The Buddha actually attained a state where the Buddha had positive sensations, had negative sensations, but the Buddha didn't get happy when a positive sensation arose and unhappy when a negative sensation arose. The Buddha got to the point where that wasn't the case. And his successors have encouraged people to train your body and mind so that you don't get jacked up by positive sensations and pushed down by negative sensations, so that positive sensations arise and negative sensations arise, but there's no leakage, there's no outflows, there's no turbulence. And there's no suffering. There's just positive sensation, negative sensation. Positive sensation, welcomed. Negative sensation, welcome.

[19:42]

It's not that you like negative sensation. It's not that you like positive sensation. It's not that you dislike positive sensation. It's not that you dislike negative sensation. It's just positive sensation, welcome. Neutral sensation, welcome. Negative sensation, welcome. Receiving something, welcome. Losing something, welcome. People speaking ill of you, welcome. People praising you, welcome. Welcome. Not, please give me more of that. Not, please give me less of that. Not, I like that. Just welcome. But really what you're welcoming is not just the thing. You're welcoming the end of outflows. you're welcoming enlightenment. At the end of the heart sutta we say, gate gate para gate parasam gate bodhisvaha.

[20:46]

Bodhisvaha means welcome enlightenment. Enlightenment is welcome. I'm ready. I'm ready for enlightenment. I'm not spending my time being concerned about whether I'm in a positive sensation, negative sensation, or neutral sensation. That's not what I'm doing. Or, if I am doing that, then I'm spending my time confessing that I'm hung up in outflows. So if you are it's fairly likely that we will spend some of our time being involved in getting happy when we gain something and getting unhappy when we lose something. So from the point of view of training to realize enlightenment, to realize the knowledge of the end of outflows, we train partly by admitting that we're still having outflows. And then we try to be patient and generous with the outflows. Let it in.

[21:49]

Let the outflow be an outflow. Let the fact that you're getting all concerned about the gain and loss, let it be. Be patient with it and just observe it in and of itself without any grief about it and without any covetousness for a state where you're not so involved with it. And then you start again opening, even while you're closing down on some gain and loss. You open to the fact that you're closing down. And if you keep doing that, there arises some moments where you gain something and you just gain it. Or a positive sensation comes and you say, welcome. And a negative sensation comes and you say, welcome. Welcome bodhi. Bodhisvaha. Bodhisvaha. So when the Buddha first taught the middle way, the Buddha didn't say that the two extremes are positive sensation and negative sensation.

[22:54]

He didn't say the two extremes are indulgence in sense pleasure or indulgence in self-mortification. He said to be addicted to indulgence and sense pleasure, or addicted to self-mortification, to be hooked up on gain and loss. Those are the extremes. And then I mentioned this to someone recently, and she said, well, would that mean that Buddha would be kind of like a cold fish, like not be able to kiss very well? And I don't think Buddha is a cold fish.

[23:56]

I think Buddha is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 98.6. If Buddha is a human. And I say somewhere in the neighborhood because my normal body temperature is below 98. So I don't want to exclude myself. On the average, 98.6. But some human beings are a little warmer or a little colder than that. But the point is, the Buddha as a human being is a warm body that's free of suffering and when the Buddha interacts with people the Buddha has the extreme joy in every meeting of not being afraid of gain or loss in the meeting. If Buddha would enter into a relationship and lose her life, the Buddha wouldn't be afraid of that because the Buddha would not be hung up on the loss of life.

[25:08]

If the Buddha would be praised in some meeting, the Buddha would not be hung up on that praise. So the Buddha wouldn't be afraid of people. is not afraid of anybody and actually cares for everybody and is not afraid to care for everybody, not worrying about whether he would be able to do something she would like if she cared about somebody, because she's not worried about gain and loss. not worried about existence and non-existence, not worried about life and death, and not worrying about these things, not being afraid about these things, then the Buddha is full of joy, full of positive emotion and warmth and fearlessness and energy. But there are some emotions which the Buddha is kind of low on. The Buddha doesn't have much covetousness or greed, doesn't have

[26:10]

Like zero ill will. Sorry. If you end up those, you're not going to be able to have much ill will anymore. So that certain part of your life, in some sense, you will be a cold fish. What do you mean by a warm fish? It's somebody who hates people and wants to hurt them. That kind of stuff is going to be like something you feel compassion towards, not something you're identified with. And then the issue of whether you'll be able to kiss people well... I could imagine that if Buddha kissed anybody, that that person might experience some kind of illumination of the entire universe happening at that time. But you might not feel like the Buddha was really needing to kiss you or wanting to kiss you again, or like, you're the favorite person that the Buddha is going to kiss. But just like, welcome, enlightenment kind of kiss. And the Buddha would be happy if you were illuminated, but the Buddha would not be caught on that as a gain.

[27:19]

So the Buddha wishes all of us to be free and skillful, but the Buddha does not consider that a gain. But even if the Buddha did consider that a gain, the Buddha would not be hung up on that as a gain. So the Buddha wants things free of wanting a gain. The Buddha wants everybody to develop and become more skillful and compassionate, but the Buddha doesn't think of that and get caught in that as a gain. Because the Buddha sees and appreciates the way things currently are and doesn't think that who you will become is better than who you are now. The Buddha wants you to become someone who understands that the way you are after you understand is not better than the way you were before you understood. Does that make sense?

[28:23]

The Buddha wants us to develop that But again, he wants us to develop understanding that after we get this great understanding, we're not better than we were before, because before we think, if I got that understanding, before you get that understanding, you think you'd be better, maybe, after you got it. So you become Buddha doesn't mean you get better than being a non-Buddha. And yet Buddhas are different from non-Buddhas because Buddhas understand that Buddhas are not different from non-Buddhas. They understand that. In that way they're different. They don't think they're better than non-Buddhas. Non-Buddhas think they're better than some other non-Buddhas. You know people like that, right? Like some people think they're better than George Bush. Right? Do you know people like that? And some people think George Bush is better than somebody else.

[29:28]

That's an ordinary person. And if you think that and believe that, then that's an outflow. That way of thinking and holding to that way of thinking as characterizing what's going on, then you're tied into suffering by that grasping. There is then a course of meditation where you actually notice these points of attachment to these evaluations. You notice how it causes suffering and ties you into bondage to suffering patterns. And you learn how to notice it in such a way that they actually stop occasionally. And you notice when they stop that there's at least a temporary release from this misery that this kind of attachment causes, this kind of concern. And there's also the practice again of not only noticing and confessing it, these kinds of outflows, but also being patient and kind to yourself when you're involved in them, and patient and kind to others who are involved in them.

[30:45]

Because it's a very deep pattern built into our nervous system, actually. We come to it naturally. And then not only that, but we actually train our children, you know, you did that, you succeeded at that, blah, blah, blah. And we think you did good, you know, and that was good. And so it's pretty hard for children not to start learning that they should attach to the gain and avoid the loss. But it might be possible to teach them that we would evaluate that as a gain. We would evaluate that as a loss, yes. But not to attach to either one too strongly. And still encourage them to learn to be skillful without this. But it's very difficult. Well, how long do your talks usually go this Sunday morning?

[31:48]

As long as I like. As long as I like? Okay. I have a 2.30 flight, but we can go until probably long enough. Is there anything you'd like to bring up? Well, one name is for it is Zazen. Sitting Zen, which means sitting meditation. So you can sit, and when you sit, you can see if you're sitting. While you're sitting, you can see if any thoughts of praise or blame arise in your mind, or positive or negative evaluations of the sitting, like you might be sitting and thinking, I seem to be getting better at the sitting. Huh? What?

[32:49]

Well, welcome. And then welcome that thought. Yeah, exactly. Welcome that thought. And then you might have a thought, I seem to be getting worse at the sitting. And welcome that thought. Or you might think, I seem to be better at sitting than the people sitting on either side of me. You know? They're like, you know, they're wiggling and they're very nervous and sleepy. But I'm alert and not moving. I mean, I'm sitting like a Buddha and they're sitting like, you know, I don't know what to say. But anyway, I'm certainly glad I'm not like that. So that's a sense of gain. And so then you say, oh, there's a sense of gain. Welcome, or let go of it. And then there's no outflow. Even though you had this kind of self-righteous thought.

[33:53]

But then you say, some people don't like to have the self-righteous thoughts because they're so tempting to grasp. So maybe I'll just think I'm really bad at sitting. I'm the worst person at sitting. That's safer, maybe, because then you're not self-righteous. But if you grasp that, it's just as bad an outflow, actually. But again, if you notice that you are grasping that, you're not welcoming it. You're saying, okay. You tense up around it. You say, not only do I have that thought, but I'm tensing up around it. I'm believing it. And it feels terrible. It feels terrible to think I'm the worst person or below average meditator. It feels lousy. But it also feels lousy, it feels kind of good to think you're above average as a meditator. Not to mention that you went to see your teacher and she said, well, you are above average. What can I say? You know, my teacher said I'm like one of the best meditators in the group.

[34:56]

Maybe I should grasp that thing. So you grasp it and you go back to the Zendo and you feel you feel alienated from the rest of those people who haven't been told that they're above average. You feel bad because you didn't come to Zen Center to feel alienated from the other people. But now here you are practicing Buddhist meditation and you feel like you're the best one in the room. And you feel lousy about that because it's like, you feel lousy, you feel bad. Rather than feeling like, having thoughts run through your mind like, oh, I'm better than most of the people, I'm better than some of the people, I'm above average, I'm below average, and those thoughts just going by, and not grasping them, and then sort of feel like, I'm not really very good, and I'm not really very, I mean, I'm not, I shouldn't say, I'm not attaching to that I'm good, and I'm not attaching to my bad, but somehow in this space I feel, I'm not afraid of the other people in the room anymore. Actually, I'd like, these are really my family. These are really my, these are me. So you understand who you are.

[36:02]

And then again, another way to sit is even if you don't have big discursive evaluations of your sitting, like I mentioned, you just might be sitting and sitting and sitting and then the thought might arise, I've been sitting for quite a while, but I haven't really gotten anything out of this. You know, it's been several minutes. I don't really feel like I'm happier or calmer or more wise or more compassionate. So it's another thing that happens. And then you might have another day, you have the same experience. Then you might think, well, it's been like months now and I haven't really gained anything from all this sitting. So there, that impulse or that covetousness for gain, then there it is again. So then you simply train yourself to be willing to go sit, not for a gain, not for a personal gain, not for a group gain, not for a Buddhist gain, not for a Christian gain, not for an American gain, not for a planetary gain, but just sort of like not for gain. So can you go sit to sit for sit or for sit for sitting?

[37:12]

And can you be yourself not to get something for it, at the moment anyway, not to get anything for it, but just to be yourself. And the answer is, I can consider it, but when I practice it, actually I do notice that I'm trying, actually still trying to get something out of this. But aren't you trying to achieve equanimity? You're trying to receive complete enlightenment. Well, that's a gain. There you go. If you think it's a gain, if that's the way you think of it, and then you say, and that I attach to, then that's an outflow. But to say it's not a gain, if you attach to that, then that's another outflow. Enlightenment, ladies and gentlemen, is not a gain, and it's not a loss. You can say you get something you didn't have before. In a sense you think that way, but when you're enlightened you don't think you get something that you didn't have before.

[38:14]

you think you have what you always had. You finally understand you get now who you really are. You've always been who you are. Every moment you have been that way. Now finally you understand that. So it seems like you get it. But when you achieve authentic enlightenment, you don't get one thing. And enlightenment where you get something is, you might say, well, that's pretty good, I got this nice enlightenment. But that's not the authentic enlightenment, is you don't get one thing, and there's no way by which you get it. Now, you could also say, but don't you lose something when you're enlightened? Like, don't you lose delusion? Not really. Because, you know, if illusion was there and you're enlightened, then illusion would still be there. If it was actually there, enlightenment would verify that it's actually there. So you wouldn't lose it. But you wouldn't be identified. So wouldn't you lose your attachment to things? Well, you kind of would, but you never really are attached to things. And when you're enlightened, you see that you never really are attached. That's why being alive means you're not attached to things.

[39:18]

You're actually flowing all the time, pulsing interdependently with everything. But we think we're attached to things. We think we can do that. And thinking that's called delusion. When you give up delusion, you don't really lose delusion. You just don't believe it anymore. So you can get into gain and loss around enlightenment, but really that's part of the unenlightened view. But you can still want something without any sense of gain and loss. That's why I said if an awakened person hears that a friend is ill and wants to go see them in the hospital, they go see the person and they want that person to be healthy and happy and free. They do. Maybe. But they don't think that the person after they become healthy and happy will be a better person than the person they're looking at right now. And because of that attitude, the person who's in the hospital appreciates their visit.

[40:19]

Because this person's coming to visit me and they want me to be happy and healthy and free of suffering. But if I don't get healthy and happy and free of suffering today or tomorrow, what? It's okay. And they'll keep coming visit you even if you never get well. Some people don't get well. They get sicker and sicker. But the enlightened friend comes to visit them. If they get sicker, the enlightened friend comes. If they get healthier, the enlightened friend comes. But they feel from this person that they don't have to improve for the person to love them. And some people continue to be sick because more important to them than getting well is to verify that some people will love them even if they don't get well. That's really what we want to find out in this world, is can we love and be loved without jacking things up and down? And it's possible to learn that.

[41:19]

But it's difficult to wish somebody to become healthy who's sick without thinking that that's better than the illness. And so some people may say, well, this person might not ever get well, so I won't wish them to get well. Well, okay. That may be all right. But how about wishing them to be happy and at ease and comfortable and confident and fearless and enlightened in their illness. Would you want that for them? Even if they're not going to ever get through this illness? Yes. And could you wish that for them and want that for them without thinking that's an improvement? So that if they continue to be sick, every day that they're sick, they're excellent, excellent, excellent. then they can learn that, and they can practice that, and they can realize what you want them to achieve, even while they're sick, before they get out of their sickness. They already can be free.

[42:21]

Remember Shakyamuni Buddha who got sick at the end of his life, but he didn't stop being Buddha. He just was sick in his enlightened way. He actually probably was not wishing that the illness would go away. He probably knew it wasn't going to go away. But what he was wishing and what he was hoping for is that all his students would understand his teachings so that they would be free. That's what he was hoping for. I wouldn't say his favorite student, but in some sense his closest student was unenlightened when he died. The Buddha couldn't somehow teach his attendant, Ananda, his cousin, he couldn't teach him the Dharma in such a way that Ananda woke up. But he kept Ananda with him all the time and Ananda was an excellent, wonderful disciple. And Buddha wanted him to be enlightened, but there was not a touch of Buddha thinking that Ananda was not as good as his enlightened companions.

[43:30]

And so Ananda got that teaching and finally Ananda was awakened. And it was really good that Buddha didn't like trash Ananda. Because Ananda was a great servant to the Dharma, because he just happened to be able to remember everything Buddha said. He was a genius, but not enlightened, until after the Buddha died. But the Buddha didn't teach him, you know, like, you're going to be better after you get enlightened, because that's not the Dharma. So all you people are not going to be better after you're enlightened. I think that's the Dharma. The Dharma is not to get better. It's just that we want that. Again, I often use the example of my daughter, How many people heard the story of teaching my daughter to ride a bicycle? One. That's not bad. Two. How many people can stand to hear it a second time? Can you hear it a second time?

[44:33]

My wife told me that her father taught her how to ride a bicycle. And she told me that she really enjoyed having him help her learn how to ride a bicycle. And she told me how he helped her. And I thought, I'd like to teach my daughter how to ride a bicycle. Which also means it's really enjoyable to watch a student learn something when you're the teacher. It's a real joy to see them learn it. So anyway, I said to my daughter when she was like conceivably big enough to ride a bicycle, I said, Would you like me to teach you how to ride a bicycle? And she said, No. And I didn't say, you know, this is sort of like self-praise, but I didn't say, But this would really be a good thing. This would be a nice thing for you to do for me. Anyway, I just said, okay. And then I asked her again a year later. And then I bought her a bicycle and gave it to her for Christmas and said, would you like me to teach you how to ride a bicycle?

[45:41]

And she said, no. And then a few years later she came to me and she said, Dad, do you want to teach me how to ride a bicycle? No. And I said, yes. And she said, OK, do it. So we got a bicycle. We borrowed a bicycle. That bicycle I got before was too little at that time. We got a bicycle without training wheels. And we went out to Golden Gate Park in San Francisco. And I did what my wife told me her father did. I held the seat and the steering of the handlebars. And I walked alongside of her. And then I ran alongside of her. I trotted alongside of her. And we went along like that, and she said, okay, you can let go of the handlebars now. So I let go of the handlebars, and I was just holding the seat. And she said, okay, you can let go of the seat now. And I let go of the seat, and off she went. And it was just as wonderful as I thought it would be.

[46:43]

Not exactly the same, but it was really a great experience. But you know, I didn't think she was better after she learned how to ride a bicycle than she was before. I wanted to do that with her. But I didn't care for her more afterwards. She wasn't a better person in my view. And so if she never had asked me and never learned how to ride a bicycle, I wouldn't have thought that she was a lesser person than what I wanted her to learn and what I wanted to experience with her. And the same applies to us right now. Of course we want to learn more. about reality and become more free and more skillful to help people, of course that would be good. Of course it would be good. But if we think that's a gain and then we attach to that gain, that's antithetical to what we want to become. Not to mention that it will be a current source of suffering and a current interference in our relationships with people. So it will be a current problem and it will block and it's antithetical to what we want to become called an enlightened person.

[47:49]

So we need to be able to spot these things and meditate and be relaxed with them. And if you're relaxed with them, you're basically being relaxed with not being relaxed about gain and loss. There's a relaxation about not being relaxed about gain and loss. And that's appropriate to the Buddha mind. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, repentance means when you notice that it's painful to do this, like to think you're better than someone and want to maintain that position. You notice it's painful. And the other part of repentance is you modify, you reform your behavior a little bit to go back to try to learn how to do it this other way. So is that replacing, is that set of options replacing a process like reading?

[48:57]

like grieving. It doesn't replace grieving. Grieving is a Where would I put grieving? First of all, before I place grieving any place, I would just say that I feel a grieving and sadness. Or sadness meaning that the kind of heavy feeling you feel when you lose something. I feel I have a very positive frame on grieving and sadness. I think that they really help you let go of what you've lost. And sometimes we lose things, but we don't let go. And holding on to things that are gone is kind of another kind of outflow because you're holding on to a loss. You sense a loss and you're grasping it. You're stuck on it. So it's a kind of outflow that brings your life energy down. So you're healthy because when your body offers you grief, a feeling of grief, because then by taking the grief medicine, opening to the grief and the sadness, I think of it as kind of like both as medicine but also kind of as a lubrication to kind of like let the thing that's gone slip out of your grip and sort of like let yourself move up to the present.

[50:13]

So now you can experience your present moment and then your present loss and maybe this time let this moment go. And I also often use the example for sadnesses like bamboo in snow. I guess there could be really, really, really... Usually bamboo doesn't grow where it's extremely cold, so it grows in places where it's not so cold so that the snow often sticks to bamboo. And when the snow sticks to the bamboo, the bamboo, the branches bend. And then when more snow falls, they bend more. And when more snow falls, they bend more. And they bend way down. And when they both bend way down, the snow falls up, and then the bamboo springs back and kind of bounces fresh in the air again. It's just been moistened and refreshed.

[51:14]

So sadness is like that. You experience the heaviness of holding on to what's gone. Holding on to what's gone makes you feel heavy and bends you down, actually. And when you feel that, you're feeling the sadness. But if you open to that, the heaviness drops off and you spring back. So grief and sadness, I think, are actually kind of like experiencing. Opening to grief and sadness are kind of like opening to the outflow. Opening to and just meditating on the outflow in and of itself. So I think grief and sadness are part of the meditation on when you're stuck in outflows around loss. Grief and sadness are not so much about meditation and stuck on outflows around gain. Does that make sense? No? Well, I think sadness and grief, opening to sadness and grief is like opening to the outflows on the side of loss. or pain.

[52:18]

But you don't practice grief and sadness around your attachment to gain. So I would say that grief and sadness would apply to the loss side of the equation. The gain side is somewhat different. Well, just that, again, most people, when they do spiritual exercises, their usual tendency is to wish to gain something, not to wish to lose something. Or to gain the loss of certain negative things. Or to become better. So that one, it's not so much about grief, about that so much, except maybe in the sense, or you could be grieving in the sense of, I feel like I've lost my Buddha nature. and I'm totally caught up in making Buddhist practice into me getting something. So there you just confess that you're grasping for gain, that you're seeking something in the meditation.

[53:23]

So again, wanting and seeking are not the same. Buddha wants everybody to realize Buddha's wisdom, but Buddha doesn't seek anything. Buddha's born of compassion, but there's no seeking. You wish for all beings, including yourself, to realize Buddha's wisdom, but no seeking, no grasping, no gaining impulses. Or, and again, if you notice the gaining impulse, you say, oh, there's the seeking. That's not the Buddha way. So you're just like, okay, seeking, hi. I'm not going to identify or disidentify with that seeking. I'm not going to be like, I'm not seeking, or I am seeking. I'm just going to try to face that seeking and let it drop. Does that make sense? So this is something you can spot. You can spot seeking. It's not that difficult to find. And then can you be upright with it and let it drop?

[54:28]

And I think it's possible. It does happen to people sometimes that they take a break from seeking. But again, what some people do is they try to take a break from seeking by not wanting anything. That's not right. Because then you're sort of like, I'll sit zazen without seeking anything, but then I just go to sleep. So if I can't achieve enlightenment, at least I can get a nap. So somehow, in that same way, some people say, well, you know, I notice if I care about you that I start seeking things around you, so I think I'll just stop caring about you, then I won't seek so much. So no, it's to wholeheartedly practice something like sitting meditation. How much are you going to give to the sitting meditation right now? I'm going to give 100%. I'm going to give my whole life to this moment of sitting without seeking. And that's hard.

[55:30]

We usually want to give ourselves wholly to something. We want to get something. But if I give you, oh, I'll give 10% to the sitting, and then I don't seek much. So I'm free of the seeking, but I'm not really here. So to be totally here and not try to get anything, that's the way. That's the way to practice meditation, is give yourself completely to the moment, which means no sense, no concern about what you're going to get or what's happened in the past. You give up past and future, you give yourself totally to the present without any gaining, and that's hard. But that's highly recommended, not just by me. You've probably heard other people recommend it. Is there anything else? Yes. Yes. And you attach gain to it, and the thought arises, I'm better at meditating than the other people around me arises.

[56:33]

They don't attach gain to it. Where does the thought, I'm better It comes from various causes and conditions, like for example, maybe you've seen pictures of, you know, meditators sitting, you know, demonstrating the proper posture, and you feel like you're now kind of like, you're sort of in that posture. And you maybe even went to your meditation instructor and they say, you have really good posture. You sit just like, you know, an experienced meditator. And you say, oh, good. So those conditions might lead you to think, I have really good posture. I mean, I look in the mirror, it looks good. Yeah, so you have that thought. It could come from that. Some people could think of that without even, you know, without looking at any pictures of Buddhas or hearing from their teacher, they could just think, I think I have great meditation posture. They could think that. And that could come from various other conditions in their history and so on of thinking positively about themselves.

[57:35]

So I can make up various stories about how we come up with our thoughts, but basically it seems that they come up from various historical causes and various interactions we've had, give us a sense that we're above average or below average in certain areas. So we come up with these things. And some people generally have the mode of thinking that they're not very good. And some people have the mode of generally thinking they're good. And some people kind of like switch back and forth. We have all these different patterns. And basically I think all those patterns are fine. But as Suzuki Roshi said, no matter what you think of your practice, your practice is actually just what your practice is, regardless of what you think of it. But we do think something about our practice. That's natural. How it comes is because of causes and conditions. So it doesn't matter so much whether you think you're above average or below average, morally, spiritually, psychologically, economically, it doesn't really matter what you think.

[58:39]

The point is, whatever evaluation your mind's making, that you realize that your mind's making that evaluation. That's not really the way you are. So there's no need to attach to your opinions about yourself because your opinions about yourself are not, they're based on you, but they never reach you. So you wouldn't have any opinions about yourself if you weren't here. You have to be, the actual person you are has to be here for you to have some ideas about yourself, and for me to have ideas about yourself. So it's not like you're not there, it's just that your thoughts about you do not reach you any more than my thoughts about you. And my thoughts about you don't reach you more than your thoughts. Neither of our thoughts actually reach you, even though both of our thoughts about you are based on you. If you attach to those things, then you're basically attaching to a delusion that your opinions of yourself are you. but they're not. And again, it's not just that that causes suffering, but that also obscures you from opening to what you actually are, which is something which is not touched by any of your ideas about yourself.

[59:51]

So not only do you become free of suffering, which is nice, if you stop attaching to your views about yourself, your views about your gains and losses, But then you also open to reality. So you not only become free of suffering, but you tap into what's going on, and then you can use that intimacy with what's going on as a resource to help beings. Because you're like, you're clued in on what's happening, actually. So you get relieved of suffering and open to the truth. So any kinds of evaluation, as I said from that beginning story, are just a certain perspective. One person thinks it's a gain, another person thinks it's a loss. Neither are true. Things really do not come as gains. People are not gains and losses. But we think about ourselves and others that way. And there's reasons for that. Having to do with our biological development as a species, I think. So we don't have to fight it. We just need to understand the process and relax with it and drop it, which is a big training course.

[60:58]

Yes? Why is it called outflow as opposed to? That's what I said at the beginning, that prefix, ah, before the sarava, some people interpret it as out, and some people interpret it as in. So some people say outflow, some people say inflow, but some of the people say flood, and a flood could be flooding in or flooding out. So it's not, it can be flowing in. So again, it's like a sense of gain, flowing in, like puffing up. or a sense of like depletion. So I know you have done some therapy work, and so if you're a therapist and you feel like, you know, in some sessions you feel like you get pumped up, in other sessions you may feel like you get depleted. And some therapists feel like they're generally depleted, and so that because they have some way of viewing the situation that they feel that they're losing something. to their clients. Some other people, like spiritual people, feel like they actually gain something from the people they meet, and then they get puffed up.

[62:02]

And then pretty soon, pop! And other people, like, when they get puffed up, then they start to try to get depleted, you know, deflated. So puffing up leads to suffering, depletion leads to suffering, and switching back and forth is nauseating. But it's possible to learn how to ride the gains and losses and not get so tired out. Because every time you go up, you get happy, and every time you go down, you get sad. It makes it harder to ride the ups and downs. But if you just go up, ooh, nice, okay, fine, all right, swell, ooh, down, okay, fine, medium, high, low, you just basically learn to be the same way with everything like that, equanimity. you gradually start to calm down, relax, not lose all your energy, and then open to the truth. Okay? Yes? One of the ways that you have used to teach is by speaking.

[63:09]

And another way that you've used that has been really delightful is by singing. Yes. I wondered if you might sing. Is there anything particularly you'd like me to sing? Yes. What? You gotta have heart. Okay. I haven't sung this song for a while, so I don't know if I know the words anymore, but I think it's something like... You gotta have heart Miles and miles and miles of heart Oh, it's fine to be a genius, of course, but let's not put the cart before the horse. You gotta have heart. That's all I can remember. And then there's, when somebody loves you, it's no good unless they love you all the way.

[64:17]

through the good and lean years, and in all the in-between years. Does that sound familiar? Through the gains and losses, and in all the in-between years, come what may. Deeper than the deep blue ocean, that's how deep it is if it's real. So... When you really love someone, it's no good unless you love them all the way. That's kind of like my talk, isn't it? So you love them all the way without seeking anything. If you love them and seek something, that seeking erodes the wholeness of your love. He's like, I love you, but I've got to have a little bit left out to check to see if I'm getting something out of it, or if you're getting something out of it. So then it becomes manipulative. But also holding back a little bit to just, am I getting better? Are we getting better?

[65:19]

Are you getting better? Rather than just here, period. Yes? Several things come to mind. The last thing I thought in the world, as I thought coming here to your stake, that you'd be singing church tunes. But I'm not attached to it. And I really like your... The way that you're projecting this. Especially, I began with, this is a technical term. A technical term. It's a tool. What I was going to ask is, would you address the element of human emotion? It seems to me that more as you get in touch with yourself, the less you fall for the subjectivity, which to me is a little bit synonymous with the influence. that when someone betrays you, you feel hurt.

[66:24]

Can I just say one thing? Did you say falling for subjectivity? Did you say that? Yeah, so falling for... pleasure is a subjective experience. It's not really objective, right? Like a blue color sometimes can be, you can look at something blue and you feel pleasure. Look at the next moment, you feel pain. So it's your subjective evaluation. So this gain and loss thing is the same as, becoming free of these offloads is the same as not falling for your subjective evaluations. Okay? It's the same. But now you'd want to give another example? Did you? Well, um, The performing arts, when you write something, when you perform something, when you're involved in the arts, you get very, the human condition and emotions become dear to you. Would you call that being attached to the?

[67:30]

No. No. Like, again, I use my grandson because he seems such an easy example for people. He is definitely dear to me. Okay? He's dear to me. And other people are dear to me, too. But if I use other people as an example, it's not so easy to give, because my grandson is dear to me, and one of the ways I protect myself from outflows around this person who's dear to me. He is dear to me. That's not the problem. It's the outflows around him. And the outflows around him occur, when I get into gain and loss around him. But he's dear to me, and I would give my life for him, but I try to still train myself to not have outflows around him just because, okay, when you're a grandparent you can have outflows. No. I mean, you can. Somebody said, well, can't we do that? Can't we get happy when something pleasant happens? You can do it. I'm just saying that's an outflow. I'm not saying you can't have outflows. I'm just saying that's what we call an outflow.

[68:33]

So with him, I train myself to try to catch my outflows and to give them up. But that doesn't stop me from finding him to be dear. As a matter of fact, it makes me be able to keep up with him better. If I'm into relating to him and I'm also into gain and loss, my energy, I can't keep up with him. He's into that, but somehow he's got something going for him so he can keep going even though he's into gain and loss. Heavy. But to keep up with him, I have to pare down and really practice well. So I try actually to not get into gain and loss with him. And But it's easy to get in-laws, like who he chooses to give him a bath. It's kind of like, who do you want to have give you a bath tonight? Granddaddy. Oh, it's a gain. But can I catch that?

[69:37]

And then all of you says, if he says, I want mommy to. So it's a loss. My mind can say, oh, he doesn't choose me. Lots of opportunities like that to watch, gain, loss, but I'm practicing with those. So that if he chooses his mother, I don't say, well, I don't care about you anymore then. I'm not going to care. You're not going to be that dear to me. So the artist, too, who finds the work very dear, or an artist who works with people, an artist who works with singers or with dancers, for whom the students that she's working with are Very dear. Very, very dear. These are the people who will carry on the work and so on. Plus he cares about them anyway, even if they don't carry on the work. To have that dearness and that love and that protective feeling with no gain and loss around it. That makes you a better servant to these people who are dear to you.

[70:41]

A better servant to this art. You become a more effective and balanced and mature artist. I know some people can still have a lot of outflows around their art and still do kind of impressive stuff, like my grandson. He's got lots of outflows and he does lots of impressive stuff. To me, everything he does is impressive. And he could learn lots of other things, you know, and become an artist. But as long as he has those outflows around his own artwork or other people's artwork, he's not a mature artist. And I think there's something about the process of art that naturally teaches the artist to clip the outflows. Because they can start to see it's actually interfering with the radiance of the work. But it doesn't mean you don't find, again, just because things are, like yesterday you were talking about, did you say unreliable? Did I use that expression yesterday? So all dharmas are, all compounded dharmas, all compounded dharmas, not everything,

[71:45]

Just all compounded dharmas are impermanent, unstable, subject to change, and not worthy of confidence, and not reliable. All compounded things, all people, all teachers, all students, all children, all parents, all friends, all rocks, all mountains, all rivers, all compounded things are unstable, and so on and so forth. unpredictable, unstable, unreliable, not worthy of confidence. So people sometimes feel insulted if you apply that to them. That's why, again, I use my grandson. People don't mind if I say he's unstable, that he's unreliable, that he's not worthy of confidence. He isn't. He isn't. But if I forget that, then I make myself vulnerable to attaching to gain and loss around this thing. If I think he's reliable and stable and worthy of confidence, and then I see a gain around him, then it's going to be more likely I'll grasp it.

[72:46]

So again, training yourself to end these outflows means you start to open to the impermanence and instability, the reality of impermanence and the reality that things are not worthy of confidence. And when you see that things aren't worthy of confidence, you respond to them virtuously. When you think they're worthy of competence, you will respond to them with outflows. But it isn't just grandchildren. All things are like that. But everybody can see, of course, grandchildren are not worthy of competence. You can't trust them. Even to choose you to give him a bath. You can't trust, you can't, I couldn't, I can't, like the other morning he got up and I couldn't trust him to be in the kitchen because there was a blender on the counter. And I thought he could turn that blender on and stick his hand inside. So I don't trust him to not do that. So I had to get up and go put the blender away. He can turn the gas on and blow the house up.

[73:47]

He can, you know, He is learning things, but he doesn't stop being unworthy of confidence, and nobody does. However, that doesn't mean I don't love him with all my heart. It doesn't mean he's not extremely dear to me. So you can love these unreliable beings with your whole heart. But don't try to... Of course, if you remember that they're unreliable, you won't try to get something from unreliable people. People are unreliable sources of happiness. You don't have confidence that people are going to give you anything. But that doesn't mean just because you're not going to get anything from people that you wouldn't hold them dear. So again, if they're extremely dear, but not seek anything. So that's my training with my grandson. He's very dear. I give my whole heart to him when I'm with him. And I try not to get anything. I try to watch for any seekings. That's my practice with him.

[74:49]

And it actually makes me more look forward, not look forward, but more present with him, more energetic, and so on, and less likely to want to not spend time with him if he doesn't do what I was seeking. If I'm seeking something, someone you love, if you're seeking something from them and they don't give it to you, you could conceivably... Abandon them. You could hate them because you're not getting what you seek. And if you don't care about the person and you don't get what you seek, it's not such a big deal. And abandoning them is not such a big deal because you didn't care about them in the first place. You already abandoned them. But someone you're totally devoted to, and then if you mix in seeking, then that outflow hits you and you're out. Either you're out or you try to control them, smother them, crush them.

[75:55]

You crush them into submission so that you get what you seek. You know, like, do this good thing. So will you be voting in November? Yeah, I will. So, when you're voting and making a preference, are people working on a political campaign or something else where they're devoting themselves 100% to this cause? Yes. And then the outcome they don't want happens. Yes. And they're very deeply disappointed and enraged in that. I mean, it seems like we live in a world and those things will happen. Yes. So how does one do? It seems like if you devote yourself 100% to something and it doesn't happen, there's big disappointment that it's hard to let go of.

[77:06]

You said if you devote yourself wholeheartedly to something and it doesn't happen, what you're working for, then you feel disappointed? Yeah. That's... George Bush and one of the others get elected, what do you do with that? I practice Zen. That's what I do. I mean, that's my vow. I mean, I might just say, well, I'm not going to practice Zen now. Now I'm going to just be a petty little baby and jump up and down and punch some people in the nose. I could do that. Or I could slash my wrists or blame you. There are various possibilities, but actually my vow is practice the Buddha way when things that I think are unfortunate occur, and also to practice the Buddha way when things I think are fortunate occur. Not only did George Bush get elected, but Arnold Schwarzenegger got elected governor of California.

[78:12]

It's just an amazing world that we live in. And so whatever happens, I hope I'm wholehearted about it, and whatever happens, no matter what happens in this world, I am responsible, I feel. And you're responsible too. So the question is, what is a positive response to something that you think is unfortunate? I think part of it would be maybe so. What attracted me to Zen was not a story about somebody who had something unfortunate happen to him, and then said, this is unfortunate, and that's so. It was more like somebody saying, hmm, what's happening here? When praised, when blamed, when insulted, when praised, when criticized, when honored, whatever happens, to kind of go, what is happening really?

[79:14]

There seems to be an insult happening towards me or towards people I care about, or there seems to be a compliment. Same practice. And again, what some people do is then they withdraw their energy because they They feel like if they give their energy, they're going to slip into attachment and then they're going to have this big negative reaction unless things go the way they want to. And things are not worthy of confidence. So if you work on a political campaign, I would say working the outcome or the people in the campaign are not worthy of confidence. But you still can give yourself wholeheartedly to try to help the people you want to help. But this has nothing to do with working to try to harm people. Because again, but if you work to try to harm people with no seeking of harm, that might be okay. Kind of ridiculous, but... Yeah, so... Anyway, I myself wouldn't say that I...

[80:23]

that I really worked that hard in the last election. I did vote, but I didn't do too much else. I talk about the world situation to people where I go. I say some things, but I Again, there are certain things I'm wholehearted about, but I try not to hold back just because if I don't hold back and then things don't go my way, I'll suffer. I try rather to not hold back and as part of that not holding back, part of the total not holding back being that I'm actually not seeking a gain. That's part of not totally giving. There's nothing left in me to try to get a gain out of it. That's what I try to do. And then I'm not discouraged and depleted and demoralized when things go in a way other than what I was working for. And then when they go other than what I'm working for, sometimes then the response afterwards is sometimes very good, which I wasn't even expecting, and that may accomplish something else, which I wasn't even expecting, which may be medicinal to the problem or even fix the whole situation.

[81:44]

Not so much what I do, but just that way of being. Well, there's some more songs to sing, but it's getting kind of 11.30 and people are leaving, so... How about some enchanted evening? Okay. Okay, we'll see how many. Do you want each other to sing some enchanted evening? Do you want me to sing it? Some enchanted evening you may see a stranger you may see a stranger across a crowded room and somehow you know you know even then

[82:56]

that you will be meeting again and again. And the next line is even more interesting, but I forgot it. Does anybody know the next line? And in the next part it's even more kind of like dharmic. I thought of some other ones, but I forgot them. They're really apropos. But I think that... Oh, I know. I was just going to say that I've been trying to extend my repertoire beyond show tunes. laughter [...] Does that mean there's something else you'd like to sing?

[84:03]

Well, I think I sang this last time I was here. Did I sing this one? Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Did I sing that last time? Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I can do what I want. I'm in complete control. That's what I tell myself. I got a mind of my own. I'll be all right alone. Don't need anybody else. But then I see you and I remember how you make me want to surrender to other power. You're taking myself away. Other power. You're making me want to stay with other power. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. That's not from a show.

[85:05]

No, that's not a show tune, right? Is that rhythm and blues? What is that? It's kind of bluesy. Yeah, bluesy, yeah. Kind of bluesy. Torchy? Yeah, torchy, yeah.

[85:17]

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