This morning, I should say at noon, around noon, you recited one of the chapters called The Lotus of the Wondrous Dharma, the scripture of the Lotus of the Wondrous Teaching. And I thought it would be nice to do a little bit, just to say a few words to you about how to pronounce some words. So we can practice now. Asantyeya. Remember that one? Kothis of Nayutis of Asantyeyas. Asantyeyas. Asantyeyas.

[01:04]

Kothis of Nayutis of Asantyeyas. Kothis of Nayutis of Asantyeyas. So Kothis is a large number. And Nayutis is a larger number. And asamkhyaya is a larger. So larger numbers of larger numbers of very large, much larger numbers. Okay? Large. Very extensive situation here. Asamkhyaya. Asamkhyaya, yeah. Okay. And then, Advaivartika. All my life together. That is irreversible. At a certain stage of the path, you never slip back anymore. Before that, you move forward and slip back a little bit.

[02:08]

That's quite familiar to most of us. Move forward, slip back, move forward, slip back. Move forward, slip back, move forward, slip back. Anyway, moving forward and slipping back along the path. Moving forward and confessing and repenting not to leave by slipping and then move forward again. There's a very lofty state where you don't slip anymore. This is chapter 16 of the Lotus Sutra, called the Lifespan, the Eternal Lifespan of the Particle. So in brief, what Shakyamuni Buddha is teaching in this chapter, according to this scripture, is that

[03:10]

All right. The Buddhas appear in worlds. For example, in this world, they appear, and then they appear to have came away. In a historical presentation, we can see they take on human form for our benefit. You can see them. And then they tell us that they were born here, grew up, left home, started to practice wholeheartedly, attained the way, and not teaching, and left the world, go away. And then they appeared to go away. He said, so I did that. I did that. But I appeared as a skillful device, so you can see, but I also lead as a skillful life, life's skillful device. I lead. to help you too. I come to help you and I leave to help you.

[04:15]

But I, until now, have not disclosed to you that actually I'm always here. And I didn't tell you that earlier because I thought some of you might have had trouble wholeheartedly practicing if you knew I was always around. I understand that some of you have trouble even starting to practice unless I come to visit. So I came. And that seemed to help. A lot of you started to practice when I came. But some of you, Bob, you practiced a little later. Since I was here, you've needed to come and receive my teachings and practice them later since I'm around and I'm there, which is true. So for some of you who refuse to really give yourself to the practice, I will appear to leave. And then those two, because of my leaving, they too will be able to stop practicing.

[05:21]

But actually I'm always here. Now, some people... Yeah, so some people... of practicing Buddha wholeheartedly, and they're not postponing the practice because they think the Buddha's always around so they can just start later, because they're just checking with the Buddha later. Some people don't think that, but they think, uh, on practicing there's no Buddha. Buddha went away a long time ago. 2,500 years ago, or 485 years ago, Buddha split. So now I'm practicing here without Buddha. And that's hard. It actually is impossible. You cannot practice the Buddha way without the Buddha. So a lot of people were having a hard time practicing because the Buddha was gone. But then now they get the message, actually, I never did really leave. I'm still here with you, and not just me, but innumerable Buddhas are with you.

[06:24]

So we're not gone. But we appear to be gone, because they thought that would help. I thought that would help, so I left. I appeared to leave. But actually, I'm still here. And if you practice, you'll realize that I'm still here. So in this chapter, making that point, that if you practice wholeheartedly, you will see the Buddha has always been here and never comes and goes. And you'll understand that coming and going is a very skillful thing to do under some circumstances to encourage people. The avatar, the coming, you know, whatever, meet the Buddha here. And then, you know, you practice, and you think, well, this has been fun, but let me take a break now, and I can come back later after my vacation, and the Buddha will still be here. When I was in college, I liked a jazz player from Mississippi like me, named Moe Zaleson.

[07:32]

I liked him. And... If he ever came up to Minneapolis, where I was living, where I was going to college, I would make a big effort to go see him. Even though I was a college student, I'd try to go see him. And then I moved to San Francisco to present him. And it was Allison, you know, played down the street. It was called the Visadero in San Francisco. It's like pretty large, you know what I'm saying? There's a jazz club in the corner, the Visadero. And Page Street, the street that's in San Jose, it's just down the street. Played down there, never won. I can go and find my wine, it's just down the street, no problem. But if you're living in the freezing north country, And the jazz guy comes up to you. You think, I got to go now, because he's going to be here for a little while. This is my only chance to meet Maud's Alice. And then you move in with your neighbor and say, not later. And the same with Suzuki University.

[08:36]

I couldn't believe, you know, some students who he really loved, I could tell he loved them, they didn't have time for him. You know, I mean, he was available, and they weren't availing themselves of his availability. I said, wow, that's amazing. You know, he really likes this guy. He's not around. So he left. Since Kirishi left. And then that guy thought whoever that guy was. Oops. He's gone now. The Great Zen Master left, and I got a chance to be with him when I didn't. That's kind of what the chapter's about, wouldn't it be? So both of the Buddhas appear to help people and they disappear to help people. And then they come back to help people and then they disappear.

[09:38]

But they're always with us. Buddhas are omnipresent. Because Buddha is, what Buddha is, all Buddhas are, is simply beings who, together with other Buddhas, Buddhas together with other Buddhas, all they do is they transmit The wonder's done. That's all they're doing. They're not something in addition to the transmission of the wonder's done, but they're just the transmission of the wonder's done. And all things are involved in this transmission. And the beings that transmit can appear as humans and disappear as humans. And they can send word back, you know, that they're gone or that they can come back, or they can come back and say that was just a show. There's some kind of balance here between precious opportunity and omnipresent assistance.

[10:43]

Precious The Buddhas are helping us now. We shouldn't waste this opportunity, but at the same time, they're always with us. They're never not with us. We're never practicing alone. They're always supporting us because what they are is they're the transmitting truth. They're the activity of transmitting the truth, which is happening all the time. It doesn't stop. We just get distracted or not. We've just spoken to it or closed to it. So the flower is opening, and we're opening to it, and we're closing to it. And it closes, too. Notice it's open and closed. It opens in the day, it closes at night. And a lot of animals go inside of them to camp out. They know the warmth of their closeness. And they open, and animals go out. The Lotus Sutra has various chapters, and this chapter is like starting all over again.

[12:02]

At the beginning of the Lotus Sutra it says, Thus I heard at one time. And here in this chapter it says, At that time the Buddha spoke. It's another time the Buddha is speaking to the Bodhisattva, this greatest emulator. and saying, "'Good people, you should believe and understand the sincere and truthful words of the Thus Come One.'" Again he said, "'You should believe and understand the sincere, truthful words of the Thus Come One.'" Again he said, "'You should believe and understand the sincere words of the Thus Come One.'" Now, many of you have heard that the Buddha also said, don't believe what I say just because I said it. He said that once. It's true.

[13:03]

Don't believe it just because the Buddha said it. But here he's saying, you should believe and understand the sincere and truthful words of the Thus Come One. But that's not the same exactly as, because I say it. You should believe and understand the words of truth that are coming to you. You should believe them. Believe. Pay attention to it. You see it and understand it. And then the bodhisattvas place their palms together and speak to the Buddha, saying, world-honored one, we pray that you will speak. We shall believe and accept your words. And again, believing and accepting doesn't mean you don't ask questions or argue.

[14:07]

Doesn't mean you say, what? I don't get that. That's part of receiving, to say, I received, and now I want to give you something. I don't understand that. I don't understand that. Tell me more. This is part of believing. Not believing is you listen to it, and you don't agree, and then you just walk out. Well, that's not good. See you later. That's not believing. That's believing, actually, something else. You know, what you think. But believing is, I didn't understand that. That didn't make sense to me. What do you mean? Say it again, please. You know? Believe. We will believe and accept. Accept the words. Let them in. Work on them.

[15:12]

Ask questions about them. Accept the world. Accept what's happening. Give to it. Receive it and give to it. Give it your reception and give it your gifts. And receive the gift. This is the way to enter the Dharma, is by enacting it when something comes. Enact it by receiving it and questioning it as a gift. Not questioning to get something, questioning to enact it. Question the teaching to enact the teaching. Now, sometimes you can receive the teaching in that question. That can also be a way of enacting it. Hear the teaching. You can also say, thank you. That enacts it, too. Thank you. But asking questions is an interaction, an inaction and interaction with the teaching.

[16:16]

So what do the bodhisattvas do? When they hear the teaching, they interact with it. They say. They talk. They say. Worldwide, when we pray, you will speak. They put their hands together. That's a way to enact the dharma. You enact it. You enact it by honoring, by revering, by praising it with your hands, with your body, with your mind. You praise it. And then Ganesha has praise, too. As they do, these great bodhisattvas, great bodhisattvas put their hands together in reverence to the Buddha. This isn't just like the little peasant students who have their hands together in gassho. The great bodhisattvas put their hands together in reverence to the teaching. and they say, we will believe and accept the words.

[17:21]

And they repeat this three times, which is tradition, three times. And then the Buddha said, and at that time the world honored him, knowing that the bodhisattvas would not stop at their requests. I left that part. Yeah, three times. You know, they're just going to keep doing it. You know, that's always going to be his request, unless he puts an end to it by saying, okay. He's a great Bodhisattva who are requesting three times. And they're perfectly happy to keep doing it. He says, okay, since you won't stop, okay, then listen attentively. Here comes the teaching. Okay, so, by my power of spiritual penetrations, which are acknowledged by the world of God and of human and of souls,

[18:24]

They say the Shakyamuni Buddha, having left the palace of the Shakyamuni clan, having gone to a place not far from the city of Gaia, to sit in the Bodhimanda, which is the place, the mandala of enlightenment, has now attained undetrived samyat-sambodhi. However, good men and women, I actually realize Buddhahood is limitless, boundless. hundreds of thousands of millions of crores of millions of eons ago. all the Buddhas, all the Buddha-tathagatas, all the Buddha-lust-come-ones, together had just been transmitting his inconceivable, wondrous, subtle dharma in actualizing anitara-sambhog-sambuddhi.

[19:58]

And they have an unconstructed, wondrous method And this wondrous dharma has a criterion of self-receiving and self-employing, or self-receiving and self-giving awareness, or samadhi, a kind of concentrated state. It's a kind of state. It's not just like a living being like us, thinking about receiving a self, and giving a self. All that's going on. And you can be, you could be in some sense aware of receiving a self and giving a self. You can feel that sometimes. But this is the actual concentrated state of receiving a self and giving a self. It's that state. It's that way of existing. And that is the criterion of the method for realizing the one Chris Darnall.

[21:05]

So we practice in the midst of this state, which is the standard of Lunges Dharma, of how we receive and give ourself every moment. Every moment we receive and simultaneously receive, we give. As soon as we receive, we give. Every moment. That's the way we are. That state is the way we are. In that state, in a concentrated and undistracted way, that's how to realize the true Dharma. And in that state, everybody's doing that with us. The Buddhists are receiving us and giving to us all the grass, the walls, the tires, the trees, everything is getting to us and receiving to us. And that's the criterion of the wondrous Dharma and of the transmission of the wondrous Dharma.

[22:08]

And then, in this tradition of Dogen, we say that sitting upright and, you know, practicing sitting upright is the authentic gate to this realm. to this realm of unconstructed receiving and giving. Sitting is the authentic gate, but I would say actually it's the authentic ritual gate. It's a ritual we do. We can witness rituals. We can't actually be aware of the actuality of how we give and receive. It's imperceivable and it's ungraspable.

[23:10]

We can't be aware that we can touch it with our body every moment. By making our body cultural enactment of this term. So I would say this is an authentic gateway to this realm to play freely in this realm of wonderstone. I would say it's an authentic gate. But I wouldn't say it's THE authentic gate. I think there's other authentic gates to this realm. And I think, I feel it's really important to make that point these days.

[24:15]

that there's other gates to the realm of the wondrous Dharma, not just sitting upright. Instead, although that is an authentic gate, there could be other authentic gates. For example, nam-myoho-renge-kyo, homage to the lotus of the wondrous Dharma scripture. That's another authentic gate. offering belated grass to the Buddhas is an authentic gate, is an authentic ritual gate. What is that? What's that thing? I've got to get out of here in a session or where'd it go?

[25:31]

I just saw a whole pair from one of our Jews just a minute ago. And now I can't find it. basically said the same thing. You know, just to make every little act. And a praise and a reverence towards the authentic wonder stone. Living that way does realize Buddha, does realize any act for them. In chapter two of the Lotus of the Wondrous Dharma, it talks about people who do these, who make these offerings to Buddhas, who make these offerings to the Dharma. And it talks about the various kinds of offerings they make, and in particular, I mentioned before, even with a distracted mind,

[26:44]

Even a child with a distracted mind, or an adult with a distracted mind, just offering a blade of grass, or a pinch of incense, or a blueberry, anything. In chapter two it says, we'll gradually realize the unsurpassable blew away. But in this chapter, it's more radical. to say that at the very moment that you do these acts, you realize it's going away. So there's two approaches, and I think that they're really complementary. One approach is what you might call going down fast and coming up slowly. The other one is go down slowly and not fast. So I imagine a realized person.

[27:48]

Let's say we have a realized person before us, a person who is the manifestation of the true Dharma. Looking at this person, well, this person is obviously immediately manifesting, immediately demonstrating the authentic Dharma that we've got here. It's immediate. Right now they're showing us the Dharma. And this person can immediately show us a bun, even though they may have practiced a really long time making offerings, making offerings for a really long time, bowing for a really long time, chanting for a really long time, sitting for a really long time, serving teachers for a really long time, a very long time. All Buddhists have done that, have served Buddhists for a very long time.

[28:52]

All Buddhists have served Buddhists for a long time. If you serve Buddhists for a long time, you will become Buddha. When I say you will become Buddha, I mean there will be just It won't be that you're annihilated. What really will be there is the realization of the teaching of the Dharma. That's what really will be happening. And you can be there, too. But it's not like you're accepted for your teaching. You just become the teaching of the Dharma. And by serving Buddhas for a long time, you become the immediate teaching of the Dharma. And so you have an immediate teaching, immediate demonstration of someone who practiced for a long time Other possibility is you have the immediate realization and immediate teaching of the Dharma of someone who, in a sense, we don't know that they practiced a long time. All we know is right now they're realizing the Dharma, like one of you.

[29:53]

Right now you offer a blade of grass and you immediately demonstrate a teaching, a wondrous teaching, which says that when you do that, if you are realizing the Buddha, well, you immediately go down. to the fundamental wonder stone. And then, even though you are immediately demonstrating the dharma, not later, not... Even though you still will practice making these offerings forever. So you go down fast and you come up slowly, but forever integrating this fundamental touchy with all with your practice. So, to some extent, actually, to some extent it might seem a little bit like I'm emphasizing going down fast and coming up slowly. Like I'm emphasizing right now, today, you give your body, speech, and mind to this dharma, and that realizes it.

[31:02]

And if you don't give it, You don't realize it. But you are immediately realizing and demonstrating it by that giving of your body, speech, and mind to the truth. You give yourself to living the truth right now, immediately, without any regard for the past or future. And then you continue to offer it in all your actions, to integrate it into all your actions. But there are other presentations where people are not told that they're immediately realizing it. They're told that they will gradually realize it. And when they gradually fully realize it, then they will be immediately realizing. So it's, you know, you see how they work together?

[32:07]

They're really spinning around each other. They're not really separate. This evening we'll chant the next part of the chapter. Probably. But if we don't do this evening, we'll do it some other time. Because there's no end to this practice. And you'll be gay. Okay. Beginnings and ends are constructions upon the wondrous dharma. The wondrous dharma doesn't have beginning and end. But when beginnings and ends appear, they can teach the wondrous dharma, which doesn't have a beginning and end.

[33:11]

There's a truth of beginnings that there are beginnings and ends. Were you about to come up here, Christy? Let's open that question. I invite you to come up here and hope that you can get that. I don't know. Are you tired? No. Are you tired? You can just ask a question. Oh, I'll ask a question. Yeah, just sit here and ask your question. I was going to ask you to repeat what you had just said about you could realize it quickly and then kind of work on it the rest of your life. Right. Or you could work on it continuously. For a long time.

[34:14]

For a long time. And then when you, and by continuously, or anyway, eventually be continuously practicing. You become it. You become it, and then it's immediate. Right. Yeah. So you can see some people, they're looking at me, and one person is... they're both immediately realizing Dharma. And one has this long history, and the other one doesn't have a history, really. Or I shouldn't say don't have a history, but they're just emphasizing that they're showing it to you now. And if you need history, they can give you history, and they can give you in both directions. All right. So, like, we have a verse, which starts, which goes, what is it, precept, in a sense, samadhi incense, nirvana incense. Now I offer like brilliant clouds, like now I offer to all Buddhas, bodhisattvas in our house.

[35:31]

know that incense offering realizes nirvana. So you put the incense in. That realizes nirvana. Put it in with your whole heart. That's nirvana realized. And then you can keep offering incense for the rest of your practice life. Nirvana, nirvana, nirvana. Active. immediately realizing it, immediately realize it again and again, and integrate it more and more into your life and the world that lives with you. The other way is offering sense as a way to approach realizing your Vaana, as a way to approach realizing that you're done. That's fine, too. And some people who can actually now offer incense and realize nirvana have a history of offering incense without feeling like they're realizing nirvana, feeling like, well, I'm offering incense, but I don't think this is nirvana, but I'm still offering.

[36:38]

And I've been offering a long time, and I'm going to continue until all beings are saved. I'm just going to keep doing this, and I love doing it, but it isn't yet immediate realization. It's gradual. I'm going to get there eventually, and that's great. And now... I'm just offering it since that's it. And it is the Dharma, that's it. And it always was, but I had a history that led me to this place. But you can also just start there, at the end of the path. Start at the end. Start at the conclusion. Make the conclusion in the beginning. Make the conclusion of the Buddhist path now. And you can call it a beginning or just now. And now let's extend it into past, present, and future. Let's extend it to all beings by doing the same practices that someone could have done as a preparation for this.

[37:41]

So preparation and integration, preparation and extension, are actually part of the same realization. I get it. I couldn't ever repeat it. You could if you listened to it and memorized it. But you don't. That's another way to embody his teaching, is memorize it. Memorize part of this chapter, all of this chapter. Memorize it. When you memorize it, that's because you subject your nervous system to the word. You subject your nervous system to... seeing the words, to saying the words, your nerves get involved in molding the words, that leaves some impact on them. If you're young, it makes a big impact. If you're older, it's a very slight impact. But the thing is that you receive the teaching into your body.

[38:49]

over and over and over, and it becomes your body. And you're doing this as a gift. You're trying to get that. You give yourself to the teaching, and let the teaching give itself to you, and you embody it, and you enact it. You enact it by looking at it, by saying it, by writing it. And as you enact it with your body, speech, and mind, it becomes your body, speech, and mind, which it always was. You're just letting it out. And this is a way that you become the teaching. The teaching becomes you. But also, without years and years and eons and eons of drinking in the teaching and soaking your body in it, still without that, apparently, you just popularize this. or you just say one word of the sutra. And that, if you do that kind of thing, you realize the Buddha way.

[39:53]

And if you do it that quickly, then you do the same thing that Kurt led up to, that perseverance. You say one word of the Lotus Sutra and realize the true karma, and then after that you memorize the Lotus Sutra. Or you memorize the Sola Sutra, and then you say one word of the Sutra which you've memorized, and you get it. Like a poem, you know. You read a poem, and there's some devotion in that, but it doesn't move you much. You memorize it, and then one word in the poem... Takes you there. Takes you there. But you've also just got to take one word of the poem before you've memorized or even read it to realize. And now that you've done that, how about memorizing the poem? No problem. So these two approaches, going down fast, coming up slowly, and down slowly, coming up fast, once you slowly approach it and obtain it, then...

[40:58]

It is present in everything. But it is present in everything, but also it's present in each thing, so you can just use one thing to realize it right now, this, and then bring it into everything. The other way is learn to bring it into everything and you realize it's in each thing, and then this. So as I just start saying this to you, because... There's a mixture of presentation of the practice from these two perspectives. Some people emphasize one or the other. Some people switch back and forth. And there's a tendency in East Asian transmission to give it a quick touch and a long integration. And there's a tendency in Indian bodhisattva path of the long cultivation leading to the immediate realization. that some confusion you might have in different presentations of the teaching.

[42:01]

I'm really glad you kept repeating it. I mean, I have to keep hearing it, right? Yeah, right. For some reason. For some reason. That's the way it is. So, you know, partly I apologize for going over the same thing again and again. I'm glad. But some people come in who are very well educated or very well informed about the Dharma, and they tell you a lot of Dharma, and nobody remembers anything, and nobody practices anything. But it really was interesting, I don't know. I don't know what it was, but it was really interesting. So I just say things that aren't very interesting, but over and over again, you tell, and you become totally certain of the Dharma. Because it's just totally seeking into you. And now you have to continue exposing yourself to this, putting yourself before the teacher, putting yourself before the Buddha, putting yourself before the Dharma.

[43:07]

Keep studying, keep reciting, keep thinking of the Buddha all the time. And if you can't, then keep confessing everything that you're not doing. and you will become Buddha. That's the teaching of this. That's the teaching of the Wonders Dharma. And do you want to ask a question? Fine. I have to confess that there's a part of me that's like afraid of realizing the Dharma. I think I'm getting in my own way a lot of times. Your karma is getting in the way. My thought, my story, my context. Past thinking is getting in the way. That's the karmic structure. So, may all Buddhas who have realized the Buddha way be compassionate to us and free us from karmic effects.

[44:17]

They totally want to free you from your resistance to opening to this inconceivable Dharma that they want to. So you ask to keep inviting them to free you from it, and as you invite them to free you from the resistance to this truth, at the very moment that you invite them, you realize some release. I should say, the invitation realizes. There's a response to that invitation. Every time I say, and they're all Buddhists and ancestors, every time I'm there for that statement, when I say it, and I'm saying it and I don't think of it, it's less effective, but it still works, even if you don't even pay attention to your signet. Because the Buddhists say, you know, later, say, Christy, didn't you invite me to come for you? And you say, I guess I did. So I still feel that you're requesting this, why I'm here. I am.

[45:19]

Can I ask one more question, kind of follow up? Yes. Thank you. It's the fear of the unknown. It's like I want to embody the Dharma, but I'm afraid of what that is and who Christi will be when she does that. I think a lot of people denigratize with that. You know, a lot of people have said that, too. Again, that's the hindrance of karma. Karma says, this is what's going on, and so we're kind of used to having a story about what's going on. So, like, to think about not having a story or realizing that story doesn't apply, it's like, you know, we're not used to that. And we're hindered to deal with something that we don't know about, that's inconceivable, by our long habit of having a story which we use to deal with what's going on.

[46:27]

So we're actually meeting the inconceivable truth every moment, but we say, just a minute, put a story up. We construct some story about what we're meeting, who we're meeting, how we're meeting. And because of that, we're kind of obstructed to me and give the story away and see what it's like after giving the story away. So just keep, if you can't take the step, ask for help in making the step. That's the step. I'm still holding on to my story. Would you please come and help me let go of it? And that's the step. And again, plant the seed while you're still holding on to your story. The horse can come before it while you're still holding on to your story.

[47:30]

The horse which is willing to touch what it can't get a hold of, to be intimate with what can't be known, enter the realm which you can't think about. that arrives before you while you're still holding on to this story about what's going on. But keep inviting it. Keep sticking. It'll grow stronger and stronger. Don't try to get rid of the resistance, but invite assistance to not be hindered by it. To use it. Thank you. You're welcome. It's a great interaction. Another question? Do you feel like you're being lenient? No. I don't know if I would feel wise to be saying this yesterday, but I'm very confused by it.

[48:31]

Yes, it is. Well, if you're trying to get anything, that would be lenient. But if you're coming to give us a gift, then that wouldn't be lenient. Perhaps there's locally a gift that I would want. Are you coming to give me a gift? I hope so. I hope to get one in turn. Oops. You gave us a confession. That was good. In my reading, I read that love and kindness... Reverse the opposite side like they'll say truth no truth, but they never use hate It's always fear yesterday and today He is the word fear and fearfulness many many many times. Yeah, and I don't quite understand how How fear is a correlate of hate, or not of hate, of love. How fear is a correlate of love?

[49:32]

Of love, yeah. How it reverses. I think fear comes up when we feel separate from love. Well, actually separate from anything, but everything's love, so... But it's not hate, which is, in our state... Fear isn't hate. However, fear makes you, what do you call it, at risk of hate. The gentleman this morning was talking about being a social worker and finding people who've done what might be called, well, it's hard for me to use the word unforgivable because I tend to think... In their own way, they're doing the best they can, which sometimes is harmful, but probably the best they can do under who they are at the moment, but... And also they're doing the worst that they can do, too. Out of fear? We're always doing the worst we can do and the best we can do.

[50:35]

We can never do anything worse than we're doing right now. And we can never do anything better. Anyway, when we're not immersed in the truth, and the truth is the truth of giving and receiving, that's the basic standard of the truth, is that it's a process of receiving our life and giving our life. When we're out of touch with that, we feel anxiety or fear. And then when we're afraid and anxious, we're at risk of becoming violent and hateful. And the fear is feeling dualistic, feeling separate, feeling unconnected? No, feeling separate, we become afraid. That's what I was thinking. I think it may be possible to take a little bit of separation and maybe not feel much fear. But the fear, it depends on the feeling of separation. Without separation, there's no fear. There's connection.

[51:38]

There's connection. There's connection, yes. There's interdependence. And the way that is, it's ungraspable, inconceivable. And so then we want to separate ourselves from it so we can get a hold of it, make a story about it. But then the price of that is fear and anxiety. And then from there we go into bigger and bigger trouble. Because the result of fear is sometimes actions that are harmful. The result of fear is sometimes actions that are harmful. Thank you. Rather than meeting the fear with graciousness and reentering the truth of giving. And in the truth of giving and receiving, the fear gradually or suddenly melts away. First medicine for fear is giving. And it comes to the conclusion that perfect wisdom, what we see, is not separation, and it is not fear.

[52:44]

Without obedience, no fears exist. Without obedience, without duality, no fear is possible. We start to move in that direction by entering into a reality of giving and receiving. Yeah, if you want to come, please. There's a question underneath. I had two questions. The first, they're both partly related to your talk and partly related to your book, Sitting Upright, which I read recently. The first one is that you can correct this story if I don't recount it quite correctly, but you recounted in your book about a monk who approached you and said, I want to make my practice just being this, just accepting whatever comes up.

[53:55]

And they went to do that and then came back a little while later, I don't know what the timeframe was, and said, well, I also want to try to get rid of my selfish desires. And you pointed out that that was a contradiction to the first thing that they brought to you. And then a little bit later in the chapter, you talk about how that monk just being that selfish monk, I think you said, just being that selfish monk frees up their energy or his energy to help all beings. I just wanted you to speak to the idea of allowing ourselves to be authentic and yet to also have this focus of what we've been talking about, you know, about the giving, seeing things as a gift. In other words, it seems like there's some sort of disparity between giving Focusing or allowing ourselves to be what we are and yet also having this great effort of working to see the truth.

[55:04]

So I wanted to see how you deal with that. Well, when I heard it, I thought, well, that's a good story. Yeah, so the monk says, basically, he says, I want to just be what I am. Is that what it says? At first he tells you, I think it's that he just wants to make his soul practice just accepting everything as it is, including himself. But yet later he comes and says... Another way he says it is he wants to practice giving. Right, yeah, I guess so, yeah. That's what he wants to do. Then he comes back and says he wants to get rid of something. At that moment, he's practicing giving, but he doesn't understand because of the way he's practicing. He's actually giving, but his practice is getting rid of rather than giving. It's generous to let yourself be who you are, to give yourself to yourself.

[56:10]

That's what he wanted to do. He wanted to give himself to himself, and when we do that, when we actually do that, we realize how generous we are, and we're very happy and fearless at that moment. We're not just not afraid of being who we are, we're happy not at who we are, but we're happy that we can be generous with who we are. If somebody's sick, we're not happy they're sick. We're happy to be generous with them in their illness. They're sick, but there's giving. They're sick, but there's fearlessness. So he wants to be fearless and generous and let himself be who he is and let everything be what it is. Be generous with everything. That's what he wanted. Then he comes back and shows me, I'm not practicing giving. And I say, okay, that's antithetical to what you said you wanted to practice. However, at the very moment he was acting antithetical to what he wished to practice. She was actually And he was actually realizing truth at that moment.

[57:14]

So that's a good story. Because he always, even when he said what he wanted to do, he was practicing giving, but he didn't realize he was practicing giving. He thought that was something he wanted to attain. Right. But he was actually already attaining it. He actually already was letting himself be who he was, and so was everybody else. And he was already letting everybody else, he was being generous with everybody else, but he wanted to realize that, okay? So let's practice it. So then he goes and tries to practice it and comes back and says, this is the way I'm practicing, and I say, that's the opposite of the way. That will not help you, as she said, that is the opposite of the kind of practice which will help you realize that you've already attained what you want. It's difficult with the... But still, at that moment, he was actually realizing the truth. Right. As he was practicing the opposite of giving. He was practicing the opposite of giving even though he was actually giving.

[58:17]

So people who are giving can practice being stingy. That's their practice. And by practicing being stingy, you don't believe, you don't understand that you're being generous. That's why you have to practice being generous so then you can notice that you're not wholehearted about it. So then you can be wholehearted, and when you're wholehearted you realize, I also was wholehearted. Wholeheartedness is not something to, you know, make happen. It is actually our essential nature. That, and that's what we want to learn, how to hold up the wholehearted Jeff in the world. That gives the influence of the Dharma upon you and the influence of you upon the Dharma to become wholeheartedly who you are. And if you try to be wholehearted, you realize that you seem to be some resistance to it. So then you can work with that and be more wholehearted and more wholehearted, and then you finally realize how it always was to be completely wholehearted.

[59:26]

But there are certain ways of putting it that sound stingy. So both should be brought out in front and dealt with generously. So when I say to him, that's the opposite, I want to say that in a gracious way. which doesn't contradict at all, but later I would say, right while he was doing what I said was the opposite, he was realizing at that moment, and I was very happy to be practicing with him. Not that I am opposed to people who are practicing in accord with their vows. They're okay, too. But the ones who veer away are also lots of fun. And I want them to realize... I want to encourage you to be bad students, as long as they have to be. Because bad students, actually, being a bad student is generosity. It's hard because the... This might end up making you repeat the same thing again, but... This thing can span the horse.

[60:37]

I mean, the discriminating... Our discriminating mind looks at Scripture, you know, and something like... Something else I was reading, you had written about the desires being one of the lesser bad things, I guess, like hatred being, you know, a real bad, bad thing. But desire, you're going to have a lot of them. And so, you know, it's... You might want to work on that. And so I can see that it's easy for this monk that, you know, you referenced to want to accept all things and then see all this desire. And is it just that we just get confused into, I mean, in other words, is there at some point you choose to indulge that desire or not? And is either one an act of giving? It doesn't, is it not? I mean, is there some discrimination to be done there? If you indulge in some desire, at that very moment, giving is happening. You're giving your indulging self to the universe.

[61:40]

The universe is supporting you to be an indulgent self. The giving is happening. Okay? Okay. But if you understood that, you probably would not be manifesting indulging in your desire. because the universe is giving that to you? There's some desires you would not indulge in, if you understood that. The desire, for example, to eat lunch. When it's served to you, you might indulge in that desire. People brought me the food, I wish to eat it, and I indulge or yield to the desire to eat the food. But it's totally as a gift that people gave it to me, and it's a gift to the food, and it's the food a gift to me. It's totally a gift. And that's, so I'm indulging in the desire, but the desire is not to get anything. I'm a servant of this desire, which everybody, and everybody, people brought me the food, they wanted me to eat it. Everybody's together on this.

[62:42]

It's all working together on, here's the food, please eat it. And yes, I'm happy to do so. There's a desire, there's yielding to it, and there's totally giving, and nobody's trying to get anything. Okay, but there can be a time when you said that the universe would be supporting you. The other desire is where you actually feel like you're trying to get the desire to get lunch, rather than the desire to receive lunch. You don't really feel like it's really being given to you. A little bit of like, I'm taking it. I desire lunch. In this case, I'm trying to get something. I'm not desiring lunch as a gift. Like, here I am desiring lunch. This is a gift to the universe, and I'm totally behind that, and I'm not at all afraid of having lunch or not having lunch. Okay. You know, I'm openly open, got a desire for lunch, and it's totally connected to the fact that you kindly brought it to me and asked me to eat it.

[63:47]

I'm totally like doing this for you and me and everybody. There's no... I'm not trying to get anything. It's just like getting things if not what's going on here. What's going on is that we're doing this together. And I can't get anything together with you. I mean... So that kind of... Desire is a desire which is the same as the desire of the Buddha. The Buddha does desire, and the Buddha yields the desire. But what's the desire? It's the desire that people will open to this teaching. It's the desire that people will open to the Dharma. They do desire that, but they aren't trying to get the people to open. They just want them to. And by wanting to without trying to get them to, but people actually do open. But when people want somebody to open the diamond and they're trying to get them to open the diamond, the people close. They say, wait a minute.

[64:49]

This person is teaching me to get them, so I'm trying to get away. Okay. Yeah. Well, so the second question, that was quite satisfactory answer, thanks, is on a more minor point of the text, which doesn't necessarily have the scope or grandeur of the first question, but I still felt compelled to ask it, which is you mentioned near the end of the book that to not at least consider the possibility of reincarnation is disparaging the triple treasure. And, you know, in the Lotus... Rebirth. Rebirth, oh, okay. So in the Lotus Sutra that comes up a lot, it talks sort of this type of language, and So, I mean, is that really what that means, that simply that to at least just, I mean, so I guess my own position is, sure, I guess it's possible, I just don't think it's very likely.

[65:53]

Is that consistent with not disparaging a triple judge? If you think that it's possible, and I'm gracious in the presence of you thinking I'm not disparaging a triple judge, If you think that it's unlikely and ungracious with your thought, I think it's unlikely. If I'm gracious with you, I'm not disparaging you. What am I? Actually, I wasn't concerned about what you were. I was saying, I'm practicing being gracious with you. I'm just showing you that when you say that stuff, if I'm gracious with you, I'm not disparaging you because you're part of the treasure. Right. You're in the Sangha, right? Yeah. So I don't want to discourage you. I don't want to. I want to appreciate you. I want to venerate you. I want to venerate the Dharma Treasure. So I'm generous towards it.

[66:56]

So when the Dharma Treasure walks up to me and says, you know, I think it's unlikely that there's rebirth, or he does a bunch of junk, you know, my practice is to be generous with that Dharma Treasure, that Sangha Treasure. Now, if you want to know about you, if you hear, if you read the sutra and the Buddha says the right view is karma has consequence, action has consequence, if you look at that and say, that's stupid, that's disparaging the treasure, that's disparaging dharma. If Buddha says you treat birth and you say it's stupid, you're disparaging the treasure. If you say, I'm open to that. That's not disparaging. That's gracious. If you say, I think it's unlikely, that can be said graciously. If you say, you know, like again, if my grandson comes to me, you know, he says, would you please tell him your daughter came? And I say, you know, I don't want to take you there because I think that food's really not healthy for people.

[68:02]

I think it's contributing to, you know, diabetes and stuff like that. You know, it's not really healthy food. And he says, Burger King is only 20% junk food. It's 80% health food. I can say to him graciously, I think that's unlikely. But still, still revere him and honor him, respect him and love him. Be gracious with this wonderful thing that he is. So if you hear those teachings and you have a question, Buddha says, accept them, but don't accept them and say, I accept them and I understand them, when you don't. I would say, be generous with them, be gracious with them. And I felt that you were very gracious when you said that. And so that's what I'm saying at the end of the book. If you're not gracious towards the traditional teachings like this rebirth, you know... So he says in the beginning of teaching, he says, right view is action has consequence, rebirth, there are mother and father.

[69:15]

He says that's true. That means there are mother and father. In other words, there are some people there that you should respect. as part of what gave you life to hear the Dharma. You should respect your parents. That's part of this teaching. When you hear it, and to have a generous, gracious response to that is not disparaging scripture. To be closed and demeaning is... But to say, I think that's unlikely, Before you even receive it, that's just purging. But if you receive it and say, thank you, Thank you, dear Buddha. And I also have something to say about this, and it seems unlikely to me that this is the case. You've already received it, and now you're giving the Buddha a gift. The Buddha's happy for you to give gifts. The Buddha sees you're giving gifts. When you give your ear, the Buddha sees that's a gift. Then when you speak and you understand it's a gift, you're giving a gift to Buddha.

[70:23]

But you feel like it's a gift. You feel good giving Buddha the gift of his student, who's you, getting his way. He wants you, and he's got you, and he's happy with you, and he likes to see you realize that. So when you tell him, you know, this seems unlikely, what you just said, and he sees it as a gift, but then he's really happy to see it, and you see it's a gift, because then he sees that you're a happy practitioner. And if you give him a gift and you think it's not a gift, then he feels pain for you because you're not realizing that you've just given the Buddha a gift, which is the most wonderful thing. So if you have these questions and you realize that those are gifts for you to give to the Buddhas and bodhisattvas, then you're like, you can realize that even when you have questions that you're still involved in giving.

[71:23]

you're still a gift. And these come from your understanding that they were given to you, these teachings were given to you to get gifts back in the bubble of questions. So you tune into this dimension of giving and then you don't disparage it. Do it out of it and you're going to, you know, in your mind or your voice you're going to disparage it because you're off base. You're not realizing that you're giving gifts to the triple treasure that's just giving gifts to you. You're just always giving you gifts. You're always giving back. That's reality. Now you need to join that. And so the last one is in some ways really, really important and very subtle. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Great. So how do you practice that way? I'll try. Sure. Yeah. Since taking my vows, it's the same.

[72:53]

It's like, you know, it gets all spewed up. What gets spewed up? Karma. Karmic effects are just more and more subtle, I would say. And I tend not to react so much like I used to. Like, I know I can kind of see the situation, and I'm not really feeling anger. or whatever, but I feel like the other person wants me to. Somebody wants you to get angry with them? Yeah, or some sort of maybe another emotion where they want to... They think I'm not alive if I don't react in some way or something. So I kind of feign anger. You know what I'm saying? I'm not really angry. It's like a game. Well, maybe they think they want you being involved in anger as a way to verify that you're in relationship to them.

[73:55]

But instead of feigning anger, you might be able to authentically let them know that you're in pain. That might be, like, real. If they do something to hurt you, but they don't realize that they're not trying to hurt you because they want you to verify the love between you. And anger is one way for them to verify it, because they don't usually get the gift of, that hurt. That's more generous than being angry. Well, more generous, but I think it's more immediate than aiming anger because you think they want it. So they actually might want it because they don't realize how much more precious that they want. They need to know that their pain hurts you. That would probably be a little deeper and much more joyful that their pain hurts you because you care for them rather than you're angry at them because you care for them.

[74:58]

which is also true, you can be angry at someone because you care for them, and you're angry because their suffering hurts you, and then rather than angry, if you address, oh, I'm in pain because I care for them, and I'm happy, to tell them, you miss it, that you can trip into anger. They actually want to do it. up in their head. What they really want is to know this other thing, that you love them and that you feel pain in their suffering. That's what they really want to know, and that's what you really want to know, and that's your happiness. That's your great, great happiness. Whereas anger is kind of just off the track. In this case, it's off the track. It's not, it's not, it's down to the ground. Yeah. But they may consciously be wanting to, you know, you can see it in their head and maybe they want to see if they can make you angry, because they're not sophisticated enough.

[76:02]

To be in touch with where you are. To be in touch with that. They want to see if you care that they're suffering. They don't even know they're suffering consciously. So you don't know that they want to know if you care. But they don't dare to go there because that's just so precious. They want to go to get you angry by showing you a derivative of the pain. Wow. It's not very nice, you know. But it is giving, isn't it? It's not nice that they're suffering. Yeah. But it is unbelievably wonderful that you care about their suffering. That's wonderful. And they totally agree with that and they want to see that. And you can show it to them. Even though if they seem to be asking you to be angry, they're doing something.

[77:05]

You want to be angry, don't you? I've got something else for you. I'm willing to be angry if you really want it, but I think what you really want is this other thing. And then I say, no, that's not what I want. You say, well, okay. So I have another question about coercive power. Coercive power, yeah. Does the need ever justify the end? Because, like, there's someone in my life who I can see the suffering, they can't see the suffering, you know, which is... What's the end? The coercive power? To make them happy. Make them happy. Yeah, to get them away from their, you know, So again, if I actually am trying to coerce somebody, it's possible, this is getting kind of tricky, but anyway, it's possible that the need to

[78:09]

to not practice the giving, but actually take the form of trying to get somebody to be different from what they are. You know, not let them be who they are, not be generous with them, but actually try to denigrate them and wish them to be somebody other than who they are. that might possibly help somebody in the form of them seeing how stupid it is what I'm doing, so they can be intelligent and realize how stupid it is, and anybody would want them to be different from what they are. And they also see how stupid it is for them to want me or themself to be different from what they are. So by enacting this stupidity, I might contribute to their waking up. to actually to give him. But I may have to look actually stupid in order for them to be smart. And that would jump. So that apparent clergy of stupidity, of trying to control somebody, could be something that an awakened person would do for somebody so the other person could wake up.

[79:17]

Like, I'm not saying I'm an awakened person, but when my daughter says, with broken dishes in mommy's bed, and I say yes, and she wakes up and says no, or that you say no, no to this coercion, then I just feel that I have to try again. But to say yes to it, might be very helpful. But it's not really coercion. There is no such thing. Coercion totally is fancy to coerce people, that we can force the world to be a certain way. We influence the world, but in harmony, actually. But if somebody needs that, we should give it. Bodhisattva is shaping, in a sense, break all their rules if it helps people be happy, being really happy.

[80:23]

Yes. And then that opens lots of other doors, which are amazingly shocking. But we could pass on ones if you want to. Maybe you'll bring us later. Yes. My question is about, relating to the last question, I started thinking about the monks in Burma and what they did in regards to peaceful protests for their government, and under certain circumstances that seems like it would look like coercion of a sort. That the monks were coercing the government? Yeah, the government is obviously very coercive, but what are the monks doing when they're protesting the government? I'd like to make the point that originally we're affirming the truth.

[81:36]

Originally we're trying to live in the truth. We're trying to teach the Dharma. That's originally what we're trying to do. But if somebody is lying, it may look like we're opposing them. But basically we're not opposing them. but it looks like we're opposing when we affirm the truth in the face of the lie. So I don't know exactly where all these monks were at, but I think that nonviolence may sound like opposing violence, but actually nonviolence is a bombing that we're not in violence with each other, that we're in cooperation with each other. but it can look like we're opposing violence. And we should, I think, accept that it looks like we're opposing violence. But really, it's coming from the affirmation of truth, that we look like we're opposing the violation of the truth, or untruth.

[82:44]

And then when you look like you're opposing, you can get people to get angry with you and hurt you. But you're not coming from the opposition, you're coming from cooperation. And cooperation in the face of non-cooperation can suddenly look like non-cooperation. Right? Yeah. When somebody's trying to coerce people and you want to cooperate, they can think that you're opposing them, and then they can, from their non-cooperative point of view, try to non-cooperatively hurt you. Right, that's exactly how the government saw it. Yeah. And they couldn't get scared. They're already scared. And then they see somebody who seems to be not scared. So then they get scared. So yeah, we might die in order to live in a church, we might die. But if we're living in truth, although we might die or be killed, as she said, might die, we might be killed in living in the truth.

[83:53]

We won't be afraid. And when we die fearlessly, that then sometimes convinces the people that we weren't posing when they wake up. So it's really tough when it comes down to getting in a situation where someone might kill you because they're so afraid of you, because they think you're powerfully opposing them, and that you will hurt them by your opposition. So they might hurt you. That's really tough. Yeah. Really tough. So nonviolence is one word. Cooperation is a power of nonviolence. the power of cooperation, the power of the Dharma, the power of the truth. But it's not basically negative. It's basically affirmative of life in a cooperative, mutually supportive, indeceivable way.

[84:58]

But it can look like opposition. And then we can be generous without looking like opposition. That doesn't mean we don't get hurt. But, again, I think I'm going to get hurt. I've been hurt in the past. I think I'm going to get hurt in the future unless I'm leaving quite soon. So pain and difficulty are coming to me. I want to be able to meet it with graciousness and fearlessness. unless it helps people to be ungracious and fearful. And I'll do that hopefully. Usually people don't want me to demonstrate stupidity too much. But sometimes in that they need it, they're not stupid. So we are going to get hurt. The question is, how are we going to need it? And sometimes we might be hurt because of needing Other hurts, graciously, we might frighten people. And then my hurt is even more.

[86:05]

So I think that's what happened with some of those monks, I don't know. Yeah. But I think that's part of what it was about. So I think it was, they, how many die? How many monks die? I think they've done their best to keep us from knowing that. Yeah. Anyway, I think those monks, Genuinely speaking, it seems to me like their lives were great benefits, and that's what their life was about. They were being generous. They were being generous. So I think that they lived the Buddha way, as far as I can tell. So they were very successful Bodhisattvas. And now, because of the Buddha, they're probably getting ready for their next tour of Buddha. Very happily. They come back and help some more, although they have to grow up a little bit more before they can talk as much. And someone might say, do you believe what you just said?

[87:14]

And I would say, I'm gracious towards it. I'm open to it. It's just a story. It looks like he is ready to move forward. Is that right? Yeah.

[87:46]

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