In other words, precepts depend on precepts. Buddhism depends on precepts. Meditation depends on precepts. Wisdom depends on precepts. Precepts first. And Dogen said all three aspects, precepts, meditation, and wisdom, are found within, at the same time, what we call the zazen of the Buddha ancestors. And he says, in zazen, what precepts are not observed? What virtue is lacking? So again, look at zazen, and if any precepts are not being observed, it's not zazen. But most people's literal idea of precepts is not sitting meditation. So sitting meditation helps you not have a rigid idea of what precepts are, And precepts help you understand what zazen is.

[01:01]

And again, Heisai said he wanted to reform Japanese Buddhism, in particular the Tendai school, and he wanted to use the four-part vinaya, the four-part practices of individual conduct, to do so. But he also wanted them to practice the Bodhisattva precepts. Dogen, so this is a big thing for Soto Zen in Japan and now in America, Dogen rejected the authority of the four-part Vinaya. He asserted that the way to enlightenment of the Buddha ancestors could never resemble this individual vehicle practice of the individual vehicle precepts, defined by this four-part Vinaya, for example, that the enlightenment of the Buddhas never resembles individual vehicle practice and individual vehicle precepts.

[02:29]

in the form of the Vinaya, the four-part Vinaya. I think he knew that the Buddha offered these practices, but he's saying the actual enlightenment of the Buddha is not like these practices. Even though the enlightened one gave these practices, But even in Theravada texts, the Buddha said, this is me talking now, not Dogen. Even in Theravada texts, the Buddha said, I gave you these precepts, but they're for you, not for me. And the monk said, what? You're not going to follow these? He says, no. I mean, I'm not going to violate them, but they're not for me, they're for you. I don't need them. I hope they help you become great arhats, but they're not for me. I'm already an arhat and I'm also a Buddha. I don't need them. He said, it's like somebody, it's like a king, excuse the expression, who has a game park and there's rules for how people can use it.

[03:33]

But the king doesn't follow the rules in his own game park. Doesn't even necessarily go in his game park. Doesn't need his game park. So, you know, you people are like, I don't know what, you people are like into various stuff like sex and things like that, so you need rules. I'm not even necessarily into it, I mean, you know, but if I was, I wouldn't need rules to figure out how to, you know, behave. But you do, so here, have some rules. But when you're Buddha, it's nothing to do with this. However, you might then give these rules yourself to people because you might want your dharma to go on for a while. But as I mentioned before, Shakyamuni Buddha apparently said in the Vinaya that there were other Buddhas before him, and the first three before him were enlightening people left and right, but they didn't use the Vinaya to do it. They didn't practice the Vinaya themselves, and they didn't give people the Vinaya. They just went up to them and enlightened them.

[04:36]

They looked in their head and said, oh, this person has this problem, and they go, boop. And that was the end of that. But those teachers' lineage didn't go on so well, so Vinaya is very practical and helpful in a lot of ways, partly so that bodhisattvas and arhats can talk about him and have something to talk about besides sex. So anyway, Dogen rejected the authority of this of this four-part Vinaya, he said that enlightenment of the Buddha doesn't look like that Vinaya. And he criticized those who asserted that Zen monks must uncritically follow the individual vehicle precepts and the Bodhisattva precepts. In both kinds of precepts, he criticized people and said you should just follow them.

[05:40]

In other words, I think he encouraged being critical of all the teachings you receive. In other words, question them, study them, analyze them in a respectful way. Like I was reading something the other day about, there's this great Tibetan teacher named Tsongkhapa, and in the school that's founded on his teachings, and it's actually okay to disagree with sankapa in that school, but there's a certain way of politely doing so, so it doesn't look like you're really disagreeing with them. So you actually, there is freedom, you know, you can actually question the situation so it doesn't get too dogmatic, but there's a procedure for doing it, like, you know, I respectfully disagree with you, Lord Tsongkhapa." But probably even more indirect than that.

[06:45]

So listen to the Buddha, but then ask some questions if you want. Yeah? Would I say that precepts are expedient means? Yes, I would. I would definitely say that. And Buddha is not bound by expedient means. But Buddha gives expedient means and receives expedient means, so we also should give and receive expedient means without grasping them. And that's the way to use them. But we do need expedient means. That's compassion. So, again, as I said before, it's like Buddhism is emptiness and expedient means. So if you join the emptiness to the expedient means, then you don't grasp the expedient means. Join the emptiness to the precepts, then you don't grasp them. And then fourth, Asai said that, you know, Asai rejected the saying that's in some Mahayana sutras that observing the individual vehicle precepts violates the bodhisattva precepts.

[08:03]

He rejected that. Dogen agrees with that. And it's not so much that the literal individual vehicle precepts violates the Bodhisattva precept, but the perspective of practicing from that point of view violates the perspective of the Bodhisattva precepts. Dogen endorses that. And he talks about it in what is it called... sho akumakusa and sanju shichi bodai bunpo of the shobo genzo. And the last point to compare Eisai and Dogen is Eisai identified Zen with strict observance of precepts and whereas Dogen regarded the monastic regulations as the point to emphasize. The regulations of how we live together The things we do together, the way we practice together, those are the main point for Dogen.

[09:12]

So I just wanted to put that there because it was kind of left hanging. Yes? Did somebody have some comments? Yes? Yeah, almost like, well, it's almost like, or like, it's like Vinaya's talking about how you control yourself, Dogen's talking about relationship, and the bodhisattva precepts are, to some extent, talking about the other. Not so much other people's problems, like, you know, other people's conduct, which you're trying to control, but what's your relationship to others? So it's almost like bodhisattva's concerning your relationship to others and welfare for others, And the individual vehicle ones are concerned about your relationship with yourself.

[10:13]

But Dogen's emphasis is not on cutting through even that distinction and finding a way of practice which is your actual relationship, which is not about others or about self, but the actual relationship where self and others are not two different things. So the bodhisattva vehicle is actually trying to get us to the middle. And of course the individual vehicle is too. They're both trying to get us to the middle where the self and other are there but not separate. Okay? Yes? A last piece, yes? I don't know if there's ever going to be a last piece, but there's another piece probably. Well, it might well be the case that in Aheji, at the time that Dogen was there, and for a long time afterward, that

[11:58]

I don't know what the best way to say this is, but anyway, they had these monastic regulations which they were practicing, which Dogen set up, which are very similar to the monastic regulations of Song Dynasty China. And it may be that there was very little, what we call, genital sexual activity going on in the monastery between men and men, or men and women, and that there maybe were no women living in the monastery. So there was no woman-woman sexuality going on either. So that may be very likely what was going on there. But I actually don't even know if there is a monastic regulation in the pure rules about no sexual relationships. But again, in China, the people in the monasteries had received the Vinaya precepts which said don't have any sexual relationships. and the Bodhisattva precepts which say don't have any inappropriate sexual relationships.

[13:04]

And then I didn't know if they had to add to the list for the monastics anything about sex. So it's very likely that nothing much like that was going on. It's very possible. But, although it might not have been going on, For all I know, Dogen was not bound by any kind of rule himself. He didn't himself, as far as I know, necessarily think of himself as practicing the Vinaya precepts which said no sex. Okay? I think he probably did think of himself as practicing the Bodhisattva precept called no misuse of sexuality or no sexual greed. That would probably be his vow. Okay? But what that led to, I don't know, maybe Dogen... Some people have said Dogen did have a girlfriend. Some people even say that Kazan's really Dogen's son. Who, you know, it's possible. Buddhas have mothers and fathers, and Buddhas can be mothers and fathers.

[14:13]

Now, Buddhas are usually so busy they don't have time, but, you know, it could happen. Because the Buddha is not restricted by these things. But in fact, it looks like there weren't lots of kids running around Eheiji. And I think at a certain point in history, the Japanese government made a law which said that monks are not supposed to have sexual relationships. And if they do, it's against the law for them to have sexual relationships. Definitely the government said this. Again, it's a law. You people are not supposed to have sexual relationships. And also the government is saying you should not have sexual relationships because you should follow the rules of your sect. If you want to be a priest and your group says no sex, then you shouldn't have sex. And if you do have sex, the government will bust you. Do you know that? Yeah, so to say. Not the Bodhisattva...

[15:16]

The understanding that I think the government had of sotos and priests is that they weren't having sex. And the government said that it was against the law for them to have sex. And sometimes the government just said, well, let's be tough on Buddhism. Let's check out Buddhism here for a while. And they'd go out and they'd find some priests that were having sex and they'd bust them. So you weren't supposed to be having sex, it seems like was the actual case, if you're a priest in Soto Zen. Now, if there's other schools, like what is it, Jodo Shinshu, where the rules of that school said you could have sex, the government didn't bust them. So they could be married and have children. And what happened, actually, There's two different ways to look at it, but one way to look at it is what happened in the latter part of the century before the last one.

[16:19]

In other words, the 19th century, the Japanese government said it's no longer against the law for priests to get married. Some people said the government said you're supposed to get married. But I think literally it's that the government said it's no longer against the law for you to get married. And the leaders of Soto Zen said, please, government, don't do this because we don't want our priests to get married. And if you tell them that they can, some of them will, and that will undermine our situation. But in fact, some did get married. Lots did get married. And more and more it became that that was the way to do it. So that now in Soto Zen and Rinzai Zen, most priests are married, but not all. And there's some sense, I think, in both divisions of Zen in Japan, that the priests who aren't married have a little higher status than the ones who are.

[17:24]

And some of them that are feel like they're violating even the Bodhisattva precept about sexuality. But in our Bodhisattva precepts, the ones that, you know, if you look at the Chinese characters for that character, the one about sex, it has three characters. It says, no sexual greed. It doesn't say no sex. But Many commentators, some commentators, say that what that means for a priest is just no sex. It doesn't mean no sexual greed, it means no sex. But it literally says no sexual greed. So this is something which we're debating and discussing in the elders' council at Zen Center. What does that precept mean, that Bodhisattva precept? Does it mean no sex? Or does it mean no inappropriate or greedy, acquisitive, And then I'm discussing with certain people about, is it possible to have sex without there being any attachment?

[18:33]

And I've made some examples for these people about how that might be the case, how there could be sex without any greed involved. I didn't think you'd want to talk about this topic this morning, but apparently you do. Funny, huh? So the example I gave was, imagine some young man who basically... Some young men find older ladies quite attractive. A lot of really old men find old ladies attractive. That's one of the interesting things about growing old is as you get older, you start seeing these ladies who you used to think were really old and ugly, they start looking cute. It's funny. Can you imagine looking at a 70-year-old lady and saying, she's kind of cute? All kind of withered and sagging and stuff.

[19:38]

There's something cute about this tattered coat. Anyway, it's about some young man. partly, you know, it's genetic programming to some extent and also cultural conditioning, but some young men, when they look at old ladies who are all wrinkled and sick and have lots of sores on their body and their hair is falling out and their teeth falling out and they have bad breath, they look at them and they kind of say, well, no thanks, you know, about that stuff. So anyway, it's possible that a young man, a bodhisattva, young man, whose body has not any particular interest in sexual involvement with certain old ladies, is told by a doctor that this lady needs some sexual activity in order to cure a disease. that her energy is blocked in certain ways, and it would be helpful if she had sex, and not just sex with anybody, not some old codger, but she needs to have sex with a young man who's got a lot of energy.

[20:48]

And this young man might, and the sex can be this type or that type or that type, there's various varieties, but this young man can be involved, get sexually involved with this woman as a service, without forming any attachment to her or without any salivation going on, with no greed, with no attachment, just totally giving his body in the service of this potential therapy. Such a thing can happen. And if in the middle of the therapy people say, we don't need your help anymore, he can stop and say, okay. And he doesn't linger over it and think about it later. It is possible. In other words, Buddha can do this. If there can be sexual activity with no attachment, with no greed, it's possible. This is being proposed by me as possible. Yes?

[22:00]

Someone's mother asks her son, will you, you know, sit with your ex-wife? Yes. Right, well, I'm saying, it's possible to go through that without it being passionate, without it... No, but the question is, did he become involved in passion? In the process, the Buddhist seems to think he did. The Buddha can see what the guy was up to. The Buddha can see, you know, you didn't just do that as a service. You kind of like, you kind of indulged in it while you were doing it, didn't you? And he says, yeah, I did. That's the problem. If Bodhisattva can go into the candy store without indulging in the process, it's fine. Bodhisattva has to look for herself and also have Buddha check, too, to see if they went in there to stimulate and try to, with an attempt to control their experience, to go certain ways.

[23:23]

I'm not going to buy anything or eat any of this stuff, but I'm going in there to stimulate my senses. Well, nobody asked you to do that. I mean, the store owner did, but the Buddha didn't ask you to do that. Buddha's not asking you to go and stimulate yourself. But the Buddha might ask you, go in there and do this job, and that's it. So the question is, is Buddha asking you to do this? So check beforehand with Buddha before you go. Or a Buddha substitute. So if you think somebody's asking you to like perform a service like that, do you have a Buddha substitute to talk to? Go say, okay, I'm being asked to do this. Should I do it? The Buddha substitute may say, no, it's too advanced for you. Forget it. You can't do that. I can even tell now you're like, you're like, you know, drooling at the possibility of performing this great service and being, you know, such a great bodhisattva.

[24:25]

Forget it. You're already, even before you start doing this, you're already demonstrating your inability to go in this realm. So stay away from there. You've got enough problems where you are right now. You don't have to move to have any more problems. So then you don't go do that because you check with your teacher. That's the thing about practicing communally. You don't decide unilaterally that you're ready to do something which seems to violate the precepts. So if you check with the Buddha and the Buddha said, no, don't go, then... how could he have gone without realizing that he was probably doing something over his head. So again, the Buddha said, you people need these rules, but I don't. In other words, it is possible. But the point is, to say this is possible is exactly the same as saying freedom is possible. If Buddhism can't allow us to have sex without attachment, then basically enlightenment is not possible. Enlightenment means

[25:25]

that you can have any kind of relationship with people and it can be beneficial. If not, this is a limited enlightenment. But if you think something is being asked of you, and you know that it goes against certain rules, and you think you can do it without falling... I shouldn't say it potentially could endanger you to fall into certain traps, but you think you're being asked to do it, I think you should check with your teacher to see if your teacher thinks you're up to it. And maybe your teacher will say no. And then what are you going to do? And probably not do it. Does that make sense? What's advanced? Yeah, that's why you should not take it on without checking to see if somebody thinks you're up to it. And probably somebody would think you're not. So then you don't have to do it in advance.

[26:26]

It's a mistake to do a practice you're not ready to do. So then don't do it. So what's... Attached to what? I think it's good to check before you give something away. Giving is primarily mental. Mental. So first of all, you think about, I would like to give this, and you really feel happy about giving it, like really feel happy, and there's no reservations. If you really feel like, yeah, I really feel like I can give this one, I really feel okay about giving this, I don't think I'm going to regret it at all. Then try it, and then maybe you find out, yeah, I was right, I feel fine.

[27:31]

And sometimes you feel like when you give it, oops. And the next time you might be more careful, look a little bit more deeply into that area and see, is there any clinging in that place I discovered last time when I actually gave it? So before you give, try to check to see if you really feel good about it or whether there's some kind of craving or clinging into giving, like they'll really think I'm special if I do this. That may be obscure you from the part, from seeing the part where you're actually holding on to trying to get something. So giving, if you're trying to get something, I would say work more on yourself until you're not trying to get anything from giving. Now, if somebody in a very sudden situation needs you to give something and you don't have time to check out whether there's any clinging and their life depends on it, then I guess you take a chance and maybe you give it and it helps them, but you yourself regret it and get in trouble because you regret it. That's too bad. that probably you should, if they really need it.

[28:33]

But a lot of things you give to people, they don't really need. Like, the world does not need your money. As far as I know. But it might be very good if you gave it away. If you really, really, really feel good about giving it away. But some other situations that people really might need, somebody's health, somebody's life might be in danger, then maybe you should take care of that before, take care of it and then check whether you feel good about it. So, Okay. I don't know who is next. I see, you know, several hands now. There was some people ahead of it. I see Rin and Tova's hand. Were some people that had their hand before, like Rosie and anybody else? Anka, yes? Who was first, Anka or Rosie? Rosie? Yeah. Yeah. No, more like any relationship could be beneficial.

[29:48]

There's possible to find a beneficial way to relate to all beings. It's possible to be passionate without there being attachment. Attachment isn't the only form of... Attachment is not the only kind of passion. It's just like the most common. Most people know about attachment. But Buddha has passion, passionate, you know, concern for people's welfare. It's passionate, but it's not, you know, it's not clinging. So, yes, Buddha has passion. Buddha really desires, really wants people to be illuminated by Buddha's wisdom, really, and ready to do anything that would help that. What is sexual passion? Thank you. What is it? What do you mean by sexual passion?

[30:50]

Well, what is it? What are you talking about? What do you mean? What are you talking about? Tell me about it. Is it kind of energy? And what kind of energy? What is it? Does it want to do something? I don't know. A wide-open, tender, joyful... A wide-open, tender, joyful energy? That doesn't sound like a problem. Bodhicitta. Yeah, it sounds like bodhicitta. To me, that doesn't contradict sexuality at all, what you just said. And you can call it passionate, but I don't see any, I don't see any like acquisitiveness there or any kind of controlling there. That sounds fine. And that, perhaps that's going on right now, in this very room. Yeah, and I don't see any problem with it. So if you want to call that sexual passion, the way we're all open and affectionate and loving with each other and consider each other very dear,

[32:07]

If that's the way sexuality is manifesting and it's very a passionate appreciation of each other, if that's the way you're talking about sexuality manifesting, that sounds pretty good. So what about when it also creates touch? I don't see any problem with that. But is that touch motivated by any seeking? And if there's seeking involved, even if you're seeking to avoid touching somebody, or you're seeking to touch somebody, then I think you've got a problem. So if there's touching without seeking or grasping, I say, great. If there's touching, which is all things come forward and realize themselves as touching, there's no grasping or seeking. All things come forth and realize themselves as touching, as an expression of really appreciating somebody and wanting to care for their life, I don't see a problem. ...

[33:21]

I didn't understand. I couldn't hear exactly what you said. Do I find what? Passion. Yes. Yes. The sexuality consists in part of what? Patience or passion. Sexuality can have passion. And so what do you mean by passion? I didn't accept her question. I protest the question. I didn't accept your question.

[34:35]

Yeah, so what is passion? I asked her what passion was, and I'm saying some passion is harmful. Do you understand? Some passion is harmful. So if passion is harmful, then it's not Buddha's passion. And if it's beneficial, it's Buddha's passion. And sexuality is always present. Nobody's alive without sexual energy. We're born in it and we live in it our whole life. It's in the room right now, all over the place, the sexual energy. But this energy can manifest in a way which disturbs and harms, or it can manifest in such a way that it's beneficial. So sexual energy, I would say, can be manifested in a beneficial way, and it will have the qualities, when it's beneficial, I think, of there being no seeking and grasping. And actually, it is operating that way right now, in a no-seeking, no-grasping way, which is sustaining our life right now.

[35:49]

So the question is, how do we Meditate in such a way as to enter into the beneficent healing possibility of this sexual energy. That's the question. This is our great art to find that. And that's what we call zazen. In some sense, zazen is to find how sexual energy can be beneficent. And if we don't find that, zazen is really quite boring. Because, you know, and sexists keep knocking on the door and say, come on, let's do something interesting here. Anka? Mm-hmm.

[36:51]

Your impression is that some energy is being suppressed. Yeah. I see that quite a bit myself, that people are going around suppressing their energy. I see that. I see it too. And people are taught from a fairly early age to suppress their sexual energy. It isn't just in monasteries. Little girls are taught, don't go sit on that man's lap. It's dangerous. They're taught that. So they grow up thinking they have to control their sexual energy, otherwise they'll get in trouble. And little boys are also taught to control it. So we are taught from an early age, many people are, about controlling sexual energies. So we have sexual energy, which then starts to get connected to our seeking and grasping, and then we're taught to try to control the seeking and grasping around the energy, plus even the pure energy, which is not seeking and grasping anything. Sometimes sexual energy manifests without any seeking or grasping, and we start behaving in response to that, and then people tell us to stop that.

[38:25]

Yeah, I'm recommending understanding it. That's what I'm up for. Understanding sexuality. In other words, understand our energy. Understand our breath. Understand it. If you understand it, rules are not necessary. If you actually see how it works, you see that it can't be grasped, can't be controlled, and it's just life. And then understanding it and going with it. Like, what do they say? Riding, you know, the dolphin of blood and mire. It's wonderful, but this is our great challenge. This is the great art of somehow engaging and becoming intimate with this energy in a way that doesn't suppress it and doesn't disturb it and doesn't break it in part and doesn't try to use it and doesn't try to control it, all these things. This is our meditation practice, to work with the energy in a skillful way, which that's what we're groping for.

[39:46]

What is a skillful way to deal with life's energy? It's quite this great challenge. But this suppressing and controlling and fighting sexual energy and other kinds of energy We came here already with lots of habits around that. So now we've got the habits, now it's time to understand the habits and then understand even the thing that the habit is trying to control. Understand the habits which are stiff ways of relating to the energy and then if we understand them maybe we can like understand the energy itself. If we can understand how we influence and obscure the energy by our habits then we can like maybe relax with those habits and then actually see the energy and understand it and once we understand it we understand the proper way to take care of it and then great you know it's wonderful and next was I don't know we were in

[40:50]

Right. Right. Or approval. Right. [...] Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Like, you know, the strange thing about sexual abuse of young people is that part of the abuse is, in some sense, the worst part of the abuse is that the person thinks that they have to use sex to get people's love. You know, they love this person and this person then comes and uses them sexually and then they think...

[42:19]

that that kind of activity is the only way that they're going to get love from other people, too. So they use it as the main way that they get love. What they want is love, and they mix sex in there. So they never can see sex as something other than a tool. And it's very hard to let go of that one because people want love, right? So how can we help a person like that? Well, the way you do it is you love them in such a way that they can gradually see that it's not because of their sexual energy being used in such a way that you love them They may try to use their sexual energy as a way... Your love actually is coming to them, or love is coming to them, and they want to make it that they have control over the love, right? Not just that it's coming, because maybe it'll stop. So then they want to bring sex into it, because then maybe they'll now make sure that it'll keep coming. So if there's some way to show them that it isn't the sex that makes it come. But that's a very tricky business. But it's hard for them to stop that habit and just...

[43:20]

let the love come with no sense of, like, I can do sex to get it. So when a person has a habit like that, it's really a tremendous challenge for them and anybody who wants to work with them to help them understand how to let go of that as a manipulation, as a tool. There's even, in some sense that's the fundamental most, and somehow it's most, it's so poignant because it's not just about, you know, being beat up or something, it's about like, it's about love. And that's all some people know. Right.

[44:30]

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Yes. I don't know. Is she next? Or Toph? Okay. Okay. Okay. Kova, Jamie, and Alyssa. Yes? Looks like it happened that way, yeah. I don't know how that happened. A bunch of people pointed at you. Oh, you raised two hands. Oh, okay. Okay. Basically it's energy and sex is a very important element in life energy.

[45:35]

Yeah. What's it supposed to mean? Well, let's see, what is it supposed to mean? Well, I have a lot to say about this, but I feel like it'll blow up into this big story. I just feel like I hesitate to get into it at this point. It's such a big story. But I think there is some skillfulness or some appropriateness sometimes to talk about sexual energy as a sub-variety of life energy or the big energy which manifests everything. So there's a big energy and there's little energies and there's some usefulness, I think, to look at the varieties. But what it is and stuff like that, I think, maybe is kind of out of scale for this morning.

[46:48]

But I'm willing to, for the time being, just say, well, forget about sexual energy then, and let's just talk about energy.

[46:55]

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