how are bodhisattvas wise with respect to the character or the characteristics of all phenomena? And the Buddha said, that's a very good question, Gunakara. You ask that question out of concern for the welfare of the world, for the sake of the welfare, happiness, and benefit of all beings. So listen well and I'll tell you how bodhisattvas are wise with respect to the character of phenomena. There are three characteristics of all phenomena. characteristic of conceptual clinging, or the imputational character, the other dependent character, and the thoroughly established character.

[01:15]

The character of clinging to what is merely imagined, is that which is imputed in terms of names and conceptual consciousnesses as essences and attributes to phenomena whereby conventional, whatever kind can be made. And what is the other dependent character of phenomena? It is simply their dependent co-arising. It is simply that they have the character, often the character of being dependent co-arisings and of being dependently co-arisen.

[02:27]

It's like this. When this exists, or depending on this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not arise. And it's also like the twelve-fold chain of causation. Depending on ignorance, karmic formations arise. Depending on karmic formations, dualistic consciousness and so on up to, depending on birth, old age, sickness, lamentation, complaining, kvetching, etc., exist. And what is the thoroughly established character? It is simply, it is the suchness of things. It is the ultimate nature of all phenomena.

[03:36]

And by meditating on this thoroughly established character, bodhisattvas evolve to complete Buddhahood. So that's where I've heard the Buddha and Gunakara had a conversation like that. And I told you about these three. When the Buddha says that by meditating on the thoroughly established character, bodhisattvas evolve all the way to Buddhahood, I want to make clear that they continue to meditate on the other dependent character, and the imputational character too. They're meditating on all three. It's just that meditating on the third character of suchness or emptiness is necessary to a way to complete enlightenment.

[04:42]

But you must be meditating on the other dependent character in order to be able to meditate on suchness. So, meditation on character is necessary but not sufficient for complete enlightenment and complete freedom. Meditation on the clearly established is necessary and sufficient for full realization. However, it depends on the other dependent character. It's also a dependent phenomena. Does that make sense? And then also last night I told you, which you've heard, I told you again, the way you know the imputational character is in association with words and conceptual consciousnesses, or words and symbols.

[05:54]

That's how you know it. If you want to see where the imputational character is, that's where you can find it, around words, around conventional designations. but also, not just around words, but also around the image, the projection, or the imputation of essences upon things whereby, you know, the images by which you know, separated out from other things so that you can make designations on them. That's how you can find the working of the impetitional character. The way your mind like separates foreground from background, the way you carve out a person in the field of your vision, and the way they appear to be standing out separate from the environment, even though Of course, even as a visual thing, they're totally dependent on the context. Right?

[06:57]

You wouldn't be able to find a foreground if there wasn't a background. There'd be no meaning in the signal pattern. Does that make sense? But we forget about that and just see the one thing standing out there. Now, if it flips the other way, as you know from certain kinds of tricks you can make in your mind, if it flips the other way, all you see is the background. You don't see the foreground anymore. That's the imputational character, is you just see the thing by itself, or if it flips the other way, you just see the background, and the background becomes the foreground, and you forget about that the way the background looks depends on the foreground. Right? So that's how you find the imputational character. It's the way you're more graspable entities, by projecting that appearance upon them as being out there, independent, independent, not depending on anything. That's the way things look. Our mind makes these strange, our mind makes impossible images and puts them on things.

[08:01]

And we say, well, it's kind of a problem, but anyway, now I can get it. And then the other dependent character is basically the way things are. It's just the fact that all of our life is really just a constant constant flow and flux. Right? It's not graspable. We live in it, but we can't grasp it because it's not out there. When we project air on it, then we lose it, but then we can grasp it. But what we're grasping is a projection, not it. It's still flowing all over the place, and we're still in there flowing with it. Right? That's really basically our life. Not completely though, because our life has another characteristic.

[09:04]

And that is that these projections are actually absent in the flow. The flow doesn't actually have these projections of essence upon it. The flow isn't graspable. And the projections upon it by which it can be grasped are not actually in it. They're absent. And by meditating on the absence of these projections, the absence of these imputations, the absence of these non-existent fantasies, By meditating on that absence, we evolve deeper and deeper realization of the Buddha way. Okay? But I forgot to say, I got distracted in a sense, I was saying how you know the imputational character, and then I told you how you know the other dependent character. And the way you know it is by taking it to be the imputational character. So you don't really know it.

[10:11]

You know it only in this false way of taking it to be something it isn't. So the way we know the actual flux and dynamic interdependence of our existence, which is arising and ceasing and changing all the time and giving us life and then changing and we lose that life and get another life, this actual flow of living, or the flow of living, not the birth and death actually, but the flow and flux, because in this there's birth and death. Or there's a birth and death which aren't really graspable. They aren't chunky and solid. They're just momentary, fleeting, ungraspable events. But the way we know the other dependent is by . And in that process, You know, like for example, I'm looking at Liliane. I actually am looking at Liliane, and what is appearing is Liliane.

[11:16]

What is appearing is Liliane, but what appears is my imputation of her. So Liliane exists, and she's what's appearing, but the way she appears doesn't exist at all. The way she appears to me doesn't exist at all. She's the basis of how she appears, but how she appears, what appears does exist, but what appears is ungraspable. Our life is ungraspable. It doesn't come ready-made for grasping. However, it graciously offers an opportunity to be misconstrued, and we say, thank you very much, and go right ahead and do so. So the way you know the flux and flow of life, our actual, you know, 99.99% of our life, the way we know it is falsely. We know it through our gravity, not through our harmonizing equipment, which is actually the way we are actually with it, but the way we're actually with it, we don't know it.

[12:30]

like I mentioned in the Garden of Eden, people, they were like in the garden, enjoying the garden, but they didn't know the garden. They were happy to know the garden, and then somebody said, would you like to know where you are? And they said, yeah. And then they knew what they are, but then they lost where they were. They got, in a sense, separated from the place that they were because they preferred to know it than to be with it. ...way. So then, how do we learn the third character, how do we know the third character or learn the third characteristic of phenomena? We learn that by not strongly adhering to the imputational as being the other dependent. In other words, we learn it by stop, by learning how to not cling, how to wean ourselves from clinging to what's happening as being our ideas of it.

[13:34]

So in the absence of strongly adhering to the flow of life as being our ideas about it, we come to know the thoroughly established character, which then if we meditate on that, once we know it, we really start to evolve on the bodhisattva path. Does that make sound getting clearer? And then I also mentioned that Buddhist teachers, disciples of the Buddha who are teaching people, a big part of their job, aside from introducing the basic situation like I just did, is to help people learn to not strongly adhere to their fantasies about things as being the things, to loosen up that strong adherence to the imputation and imagining and superimposing those on things, to stop, you know, agreeing with or believing in this false appearance of things as being these things.

[14:55]

The things aren't false, but the way they appear is false. they appear to be a different way than they are. So again, in terms of meditating, the basic meditation on dependent core arising is all day long you're looking at dependent core arisings because that's the only phenomena that there are, dependent core arisings. So you're looking at them, but you're seeing them as not being dependent core arisings. you're seeing the pinnacle of rising falsely all day long. So we're not saying there aren't trucks and cars and roads and people and trees and doors and windows. We're just saying, because there are. We're just saying that when you look at a door, the way you see it is that you're seeing it as it appears to be not a pinnacle of rising.

[16:06]

That's the way it looks. So you're looking at, basically all day long, you're looking at basically contradictions to the Buddha's basic teaching all day long. Disappearance, disappearance, [...] everything you meet is basically contradicting Buddha's teachings. Everything you meet is saying, independent, [...] And people actually come up to you and say, please see me as independent. Don't see me as sort of interconnected with everything. See me like me. See me. See my dress and my makeup and my hairdo. See me. Don't see me blending in with the background. So if you ever start slipping from that, no, no, no, don't do that. So people kind of want, because we see things that way, we want everybody to see us that way, and also see us as independent, but also independent and nice.

[17:14]

So all day long, that's what we're seeing. We're seeing anti-Buddhist representations of the world. So we need to put the Buddhist one in our ear. So you look at things and you see independent and you hear other dependent, other dependent, other dependent. It's like teaching in your ear, or maybe both ears, but one's enough because what's coming in the other ear is these things are independent. So it's a little bit of a problem. That's why it's good to practice tranquility. so that you can stand these messages. One is a false message, and the other one is a message of the truth. And if you keep listening to that, you start evolving in a very positive, virtuous.

[18:18]

So then what I was about to say is that Buddhist teachers encourage people to meditate on dependent core arising, like the Buddha did, but also once you're tuned into dependent core arising, once you have that basic program, once you program yourself to think about that Dharma teaching all the time, then you're ready, then you're getting ready to have your strong adherence to these dependent core risings that you're seeing. Ready to let go of the strong adherence to them being the image of them, this anti-dependent core rising image. Get ready to start loosening on that. Have that loosened. Any questions about that?

[19:26]

Yes. Yes, Michael, Michael Rudy, would you turn this light on here, please? Turn some of the lights on. No, all over the place. That's good. And now the ones up in front. Thanks. Yes, that's good. Mike? When you look at a what? Person. Person, yes. What you mean is that... I'm asking a question. What you mean is that they do not produce themselves, they have not created... Yeah, that's another message you can put in your ear. Like if I look at, you say, I look at a person. So actually, nice to say person because when you look at a person, there is a person there, but what you see when you look at a person is a persona.

[20:33]

In other words, when you look at a person, you are looking at a person, but what you see is a mask. You see a mask that you put on the person. Actually, you see a disguised version of the person. You see a person with a mask. So now the word for person is actually the same as mask. But that's good because that's what we see when we see people is we see a masked person. We see a masked man. Right? That's what you see when you see a person because you can't see the person. You can see the person, but you can't know the person unless you slap a mask on them. And not only that, but people get scared to meet other people unless they feel like they have a mask on them. But anyway, you don't have to worry about having your mask on. Other people will put it on for you. So when you look at a person, you see a mask, which is disguising the person to you.

[21:33]

And then one of the things you can put in your ear also is, this person does not produce. And that's another way to hear the teaching. This person lacks the character or the nature of self-production. That's another wonderful Dharma message to put in your ear. But as you know, you've got to be careful with these things because if you do them over and over, you start getting like... So you maybe have to have a little Dharma song or something that's constantly changing so you don't get too bored listening to this good old Buddhist teaching of, this thing does not produce itself. Okay. Okay. Yes. It's harder to see.

[22:41]

You can't see the... Yeah, you realize you can't see it. That's why it's hard to see it. You can't see it. You cannot see it. Even if you're enlightened, you can't see it because, as it says, that which can be met with recognition is not realization itself. If you see it, you've just packaged it into an external thing. That's not it. It's not like out there. It's all around you and nothing but you, and you're nothing but it, so you can't see it. However, you are totally intimate with it. But that's the problem with things you're intimate with, you can't see them. But when you can see them, you get uncomfortable. Like if you go out in the rain now, and the rain is one thing and you're another, then you feel kind of uncomfortable. If you go out there now and don't have the rain something out there, we'll be fine.

[23:44]

But if you try to, like, beat a dry person in the rain, you get stressed. Right? Try to keep dry in the rain. It's kind of like we stop, you know, we lose track of our breathing and stuff. So anyway, we... We can't know the other dependent. We just heard the way we know the other dependent is by knowing it as our projections upon it. That's the way we know it. So it's a kind of a dynamic statement to say the way you know it is by not knowing it. Or the way you know it is by knowing it as something else. We know the actual flux of interdependence by knowing it as something that it isn't. And of all things to pick... we pick the thing that's most important, namely independent existence. We don't pick like another version of sort of partial interdependence.

[24:48]

We pick total independence to represent total interdependence. The reason why we do that is because if you take a partially, you don't get a very good grip on it. You know, it's got kind of a soggy side where it's all diffuse and letting in all kinds of relationships. That's why coffee helps to really sharply define those things. The sharper the image, the more false the understanding of the thing. But we like sharp images, don't we? So there's two people there. Yeah, you're one of them. That's right. And the other one's the one behind you. He couldn't see a person. That was her. The other dependent cannot be known except as the incantational.

[25:56]

I'm having a little bit of trouble understanding how... Is it itself an incantation? Is what an incantation? The other dependent... What I'm trying to get at is how... It's kind of going in circles. I was about to say... I understand how we can talk about it. We can talk about it by imputation. But how do we know... It's like the... It seems to like... How is it not a theory? Or is it a theory? Is it a postulate or can it be seen? The way it's not a theory is the way you don't know it. In the realm where you don't know it, it's not a theory. But when you know it, it is a theory.

[27:01]

Cool, huh? Except, well, I want to know it. Well, then it's a theory. As soon as you can get it with the theory or whatever you want to call it, the way you get it and know it, you just lost it. You know it. You know it. Now you know you're in the Garden of Eden, so you're out. Now you know what love is, so you lose it. But when you're in love and you don't know what it is, it's not a theory. It's not theoretical love. It's actual love. Unfortunately, however... Love rather than theoretical love. You don't even know. People say, how are you feeling? You say, fine, how are you? How's your love life? I don't know. It's okay, I guess. I have no idea. Are you in love? I don't know. But you're actually like sitting there being in love, you know, all day long. But you don't know it. You're not cooking away being in love. But if people ask you, where you are, where your lover is, and how your love life's going, what your lover looks like, you can't tell them.

[28:12]

But you're happy because you're in love. And then some people, that's a... So then people say, well, you should know who your lover is. She said, well, that's probably true. Your lover might be something bad. So find out. So then you find out, but then you lose it. Again, you go to a coffee shop and people say, how's your love life? You say, I don't know. You should find out. Find out is get a lover that you know is a lover and then you know what your love life, how your love life is. And then you can say what's good and bad and stuff like that. And then people don't tease you and say, you're so stupid. And actually everybody is already in love. with everything that gives him life. And being given life by everything that gives you life, that is love. Pentecostalizing is love. So how do you know it without making it a theory?

[29:19]

So how does Buddha tell us about it without making it into a theory? He makes it into a theory so he can tell us about it. How did he know about it before he made it into a theory? Well, you know, it came up through the ranks, so to speak, of an unenlightened person. Okay? So Buddha once knew what dependent core rising was, and Buddha realized that what Buddha thought a dependent core rising was, was the idea of dependent core rising, the theory of dependent core rising, namely a mask, namely And then Buddha realized that that disguise doesn't reach dependent core arising. Therefore, you know, and you can't see the graspable version of dependent core arising in it. In other words, Buddha understood suchness or fairly established character. That Buddha used to know, Buddha used to know dependent core arising as being the idea of it, right?

[30:29]

then Buddha saw that the idea of it couldn't be found in anything. Now, anything means, anything you know means, what does it mean? It means something. And the way you know it is by your grasping of it. But then when you're looking at things, which you know by grasping, you look at them and then you see that there's no way to grasp them. Okay? But you're still looking at something. And you see there's no way to grasp it. But you're still looking at it. But you have no way to grasp it. So you're looking at something, but you don't see anything. But you understand that you used to be looking at something, and the way it looked, you found it. But you understand that the way it looked was based on something. Because you know also from experience, from meditation, that when you look at the way you grasp it when the thing's not around, that it's just a mere fantasy.

[31:33]

But when it comes alive is when it gets hooked up with something, namely dependent core rising. But when it gets hooked, it sort of kills that something. Because it flips it from an inconceivably beautiful, wonderful, dynamic process into a nice little package. And you can tell the difference between the packaging, the potential for packaging, and that you're packaging. It turns on, you know. Then you look at this and then you look around and say, now can I find this in anything? You look around and you don't. But then at that time you're looking at dependent core rising and you can't see it. And you meditate on the fact that you're co-arising, and then you come to actually understand what dependent co-arising is. And there's a relationship between the imputation and the theories, and the basis of the theories.

[32:35]

There's a relationship, and you can test it, and you can learn it. The main relationship is that the theories never reach the actuality. The theories of dependent core arising don't reach dependent core arising. So we have explanations. We just told you dependent core arising is that things depend on things other than themselves and all this other stuff. The whole process that we just described is true You can test it, but it doesn't reach what it's describing. Even depending on this, that arises. Depending on the absence of that, this ceases. That principle is a true principle, but that doesn't reach the principle. You understand that? The principle, it just doesn't reach it. So the great Zen master Bodhidharma, you know, he went to see the emperor of China, right?

[33:36]

And the emperor says, what's the highest proofs of the Buddhadharma? And Bodhidharma says, vast emptiness. You know, vast absence of all imagination in the world. No holy. Who is it that's facing me right now? And Bodhidharma says, don't know. Bodhidharma, what he is, is don't know. You don't know, you know, Bodhidharma doesn't know who's facing the emperor, but if the emperor wants to know who it is, understand who's meeting you, don't know. He isn't, it isn't just don't know, like I don't know, it's also that's the way to meet Bodhidharma. Any other things you want to bring up right now?

[35:04]

She has to raise her hand again. Yeah. But she doesn't want to. She wants to use her hands to hold her head up. Oh yeah, that one. I'll read that story again, okay? rather than just refer to it. Ready? So this is a story which might be a story about a Zen teacher and his assistant trying to help a monk not strongly adhere to conceptual grasping as being the other dependent character or phenomenon. Okay? So the story is, A monk asked the great Master Ma, please teach me. Going beyond the permutations of assertion and denial, directly point me to the living meaning of the Buddha way.

[36:13]

And Master Ma says, I'm tired today. I can't explain. Go ask Jirtson. You know, there's more to the story, but that's enough for now. Yes? Is the teacher trying to say what you just said? Is that what you said? Is he trying to say what you just said? Is that what you're asking? Well, I would say no, because he didn't say what you said. He said what he said.

[37:15]

But I think his intention is not to say something different from what he said. I think his intention is to say what he said so that this monk would loosen up the strong adherence. So if you think that if you tell somebody what you said, you know what you said? If you think that telling somebody that would help them loosen up strongly adhering to the mask they're putting on what's happening, what's happening. If you think saying that would be it, then maybe that's what you would say with that same intention. But it's not so much that you're trying to tell somebody what you said, but use what you said so that you're adhering to false appearances as being what things are.

[38:26]

I'm telling you about dependent core rising and stuff, but I'm just sort of like trying to set you up for being upset. I'm trying to give you enough background so that you will allow yourself to be upset, so you allow yourself to be loosened up a little bit. Are you ready to be upset? I mean, if you get excessively involved with it? Is that what you mean? That's right.

[39:29]

That's right. So you're going to try to not be excessively involved? Is that what you said? I could practice with that. You could practice with not being excessively involved in your upsets? Yeah, or feelings of sadness. Or feelings of happiness? Well, would you like some comment on that? Really? I think it's better to meditate on dependent core rising rather than try not to be excessively involved. In other words, rather than try to be healthy, why don't you take the medicine? See the difference? No?

[40:35]

No? The medicine is the teaching, dependent core rising. Medicine, then you won't be excessively involved. If you let that medicine sink into you, then you won't be excessively involved. If you find yourself excessively involved with something, then isn't that a way to practice all the different causes and conditions that may that brought that feeling on, or that caused? I don't recommend that. It's okay, it's not as bad as like, I don't know what else, but... Are you leaving? Oh, okay. It's not... It's okay to think about causes and conditions, but when you do that, what you're basically going to do is you're going to be thinking about theories of causes and conditions. You're just going to be into the masked version of causes.

[41:39]

You're going to be thinking about the imputational. But it's okay. It's still sort of in the ballpark of Buddhist conversations, but it's a little bit of a distraction to get into the thinking of the causes and conditions of your upset I can say it's okay, I just don't recommend it. I think it's better to just simply say, when you're upset, or when you're excessively involved, at that time, if you just say, just remember it's dependent core arising, that's more direct about this thing than to get into a story about the causes and conditions. But if you find that helpful, it's okay. I just, I more highly recommend the Buddhist teaching. The Buddhist teaching is not, there's not a Buddhist teaching telling you what the causes and conditions are. And your story does not reach the causes and conditions.

[42:47]

My fantasy is that you're thinking too much right now. But anyway, I... When I said ready to be upset, I meant upset like a couple cart turned over. When I said upset, I mean like ready to have... ready to loosen up on... adhering to what's happening as being your idea. That's what I was asking you about. And I didn't mean upset like, you know, unhappy or something. But what I'm suggesting to you, everybody, is that if you meditate, if you remember and are mindful of this teaching, I'm suggesting to you that when you listen to this teaching and when it starts sinking in, you will not so excessively involved in things. If you take this medicine, the result of the medicine will be a healing process where you will not be so excessively involved with the phenomena of your life.

[44:15]

And I'm just saying I recommend that way rather than trying not so excessively involved, although trying to be not excessively involved in things is pretty good, it's more — what do you call it — derivative or removed. It's a little bit off to the side. Because if you are excessively involved, then you don't want to try not to be excessively involved when you're excessively involved. So if you are excessively involved, then if you bring the teaching to that excessive involvement, that teaching will help you — it won't knock the excessive involvement out of the water. it'll make you not being excessively involved. So you get yourself in situations, sometimes just a moment of excessive involvement in something, but sometimes the excessive involvement becomes, what do you call it, in some sense more massive, like having excessive involvement with motherhood.

[45:22]

You know? Ten kids and, you know, a single parent, ten kids or something like that, right? This is like really involved with having kids. So then if you bring the teaching to that, you can learn to be not excessively involved with all the kids. Get rid of the kids. I don't know if this is making sense. So, anyway... I mean, it's as good to go around trying to be a way, which is other than the way you are. I think it's more like, whatever way you are, apply the teachings to that, and then as a result of that, applying the teachings to the way you are, applying the teachings to what's happening, as a result of that, you will start to understand that things are impermanent.

[46:27]

and so on, and when you do, we do not tend to get overly involved with things when we understand that they're impermanent. We do tend to get overly involved with impermanent things. We tend to be overly involved with impermanent things because basically everything we deal with all day long is an impermanent thing. However, we don't tend to remember and see that impermanent things are impermanent. But when you listen to this teaching, you start to understand impermanence of things, and then when you see the impermanence and understand the impermanence, the excessive involvement starts to wane. But Unfortunately, when I said, are you ready to be upset, I was not talking about this meditation. I was talking about the next meditation on the fairly established.

[47:32]

But this example shows the necessity, I think, or imply the necessity of being well grounded in meditation on the other dependent. Because when you start to meditate on the Thoroughly Established, it does tend to, like, it throws you possibilities. And if you don't know how to sort of like stay balanced and not be excessive in what's happening, it will be hard to make the transition to meditation on the ultimate. So back to the story. I guess that this monk was pretty stable in asking this question. And the teacher gave him this response of, I'm too tired today, go ask so-and-so.

[48:35]

And I stopped there because I thought that was enough to start with. The student asked a question and the teacher said, I'm too tired today. Yeah. Or, I'm tired today. I can't explain for you. And the story goes on, but in some senses I think it's nice just to stop right there for the time being. Now maybe Master Ma was tired. And if Master Ma can't explain, it's not because Master Ma isn't quite a

[49:37]

I mean, you know, he's been gifted by enlightenment. This is a greatly enlightened being who can't explain. Well, how come a greatly enlightened person can't explain? Why wouldn't a greatly enlightened person be able to explain? Hmm? What? That's possible. Huh? He didn't know. He can't say that he knows. That's another possibility. Yes? I think the monk was saying, please don't use rhetoric. So, Ma said, I won't use rhetoric. So, you think the monk was saying, don't use rhetoric. He was saying, don't use logic and argument and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, you could say the monk was saying, don't explain to me. Just show me directly. Show me the living meaning of Buddhism. And then Ma showed it to him. And he showed it to him.

[50:42]

And how he showed it to him, he said, I can't explain it to you. The way he showed it, he showed it by saying, I can't explain it. That's the way he chose to show it. He could have also shown it by saying, I can't show it. What did you say? So anyway, Master Ma can't help but directly show the living meaning of Buddhism because he is the living meaning of Buddhism. That's what he is. That's why he's called Master Ma, or even Great Master Ma. It says great, capital G, capital G-M-M, G-M-M. Grand Master Ma. He is the living meaning in Buddhism. The monk says, would you please show me the living meaning in Buddhism? Okay, want to see it? I can't explain it to you.

[51:44]

He's showing it to him. And then he says, go ask somebody else. Now, I don't know what happened at the end of the sentence. I can't explain it to you. I'm tired today. But it's possible that the monk kind of went, oh, that's too bad or something like that. So he said, okay, you go see somebody else. You asked for the living meaning of Buddhism. You didn't see it. Okay, go someplace else and look for it. I just showed it to you. You started talking. You saw it. I mean, I was here being it. Yes? Is it possible that he didn't show that he was just tired? Like I said, I don't know if he's tired, but even if he was tired, when Master Ma's … It isn't like the living Buddhism gets turned off when Master Ma's tired. So if you go up to the living meaning of Buddhism, if you go up to the Buddha,

[52:50]

and you ask the Buddha, please show me the living meaning of Buddha, the Buddha might say, I'm tired today. You know, he'd go up the next day, he'd say, show me the living meaning of Buddhism, and the Buddha says, today I'm not tired. In other words, he just tells you what the, you know, today it's, what do you call it, another answer could be, today is Monday. Here, today is Monday. The living meaning of Buddhism is I'm a person telling you it's Monday, and, you know, I'm the Buddha, so what other more living meaning of Buddha do you want than Buddha? And the thing is, some people want something else. They don't want Buddha. They want a theory of Buddha rather than the actual, just, I'm tired. It's like, another story is like, you know, the Buddha, we call the Buddha, right?

[54:01]

So if somebody went up to the Buddha and said, I'm looking for Buddha, Buddha would say, you're looking for Buddha? The person would say, yeah. He'd say, oh, that's nice. The person would say, would you please tell me where Buddha is? And the Buddha says, And the person says, well, where is the Buddha? What do you mean, where is the Buddha? I mean, I'm looking for the Buddha. I asked you where the Buddha was, and you're not telling me where the Buddha is. Do you know where the Buddha is? Yes. Well, where is the Buddha? No. I thought you said you knew where the Buddha was. I do. Where is the Buddha? You know, so the Buddha might not say, well, I'm the Buddha. Why are you asking me where the Buddha was if you didn't? So another story is like, there's this monk, his name was Nanchuan.

[55:07]

His name was Nanchuan. And he was working in the fields, cutting grass or something. And a monk came by and said, I'm looking for non-chuan. Where's non-chuan? And non-chuan says, this sickle is sharp. And the monk, I didn't come to ask about sickles. I want to know where non-chuan is. And non-chuan says, it costs 30 bucks. You know, he's asking him, you know, where's Nanchuan? Nanchuan shows him. The monk says, where's Nanchuan? And he keeps showing him. But that's the end of the story. He could have kept showing him over and over. This is Nanchuan who's got this, you know, like a little kid. You go up to a little kid and you say, you know, like some little kid's name is Billy or something.

[56:12]

And you go up and you say, hi. And Billy says, hi. And you said, I'm looking for Billy. And then Billy says, And you say, I'm not asking about trucks. I want to know where's Billy. And then Billy says, and it's got, and it's yellow. So Billy's like straightforwardly showing this guy, guy doesn't get it. Because he's superimposing something on the situation like, This is not the way people tell me what's going on. I didn't come for this. I came for something. And what I came for was what I... Not what's happening. So the first line of the story is pretty good. We can go on, but basically... And I like the story, like I said, because Nanchuan's tired in this story.

[57:16]

And the next story I want to tell you about Nanchuan is Nanchuan's very... But the basic thing here about the living meaning of Buddhism, part of one of the threads running through this retreat is that sometimes we're tired, and sometimes we're sick, and sometimes we're dying. But it isn't like when we're sick or tired or dying that then the living in Buddhism is blocked. So we have to sort of get in touch with this thread, the living meaning of Buddhism that's running through all experience, all situations. We've got to find this thread. that's there when Nan Chuan says, I'm tired. That's there. The living meaning of Buddhism is there when Nan Chuan or Matsu said, I can't explain to you.

[58:22]

That's Matsu saying, I can't explain to you. You're getting to see Matsu. If we could cart Matsu in here just for a second, could we have Matsu back here? We know he's been away for a while, but could we have Matsu in the room for a little while? And we bring Matsu. Just for, you know, five minutes, we get to see the great Zen Master Matsu. Want to see him? Sure. Wouldn't you like to see him? So he comes in, and we get to see Matsu, and then we say, well, Master Ma, please, is there anything you want to tell us while you're here for this brief visit? And he says, I can't explain it to you. Bye-bye. But we got to see Ma. And what he said to us when he was here was, I can't explain it to you. Hi.

[59:24]

Have you heard the story about where I said I couldn't explain something? And we say, yeah. He said, well, guess what? We say, what? He says, today I can't explain. Bye-bye. And today I can't explain even more. I even less can explain than I used to be able to explain. I've evolved even further. But I hope that in the 1300 years since I died, that you people are more . So the story goes on, but you know, for me that's enough. Just that The big boss couldn't explain. Well, the next guy, who was also a great Zen master, he had a headache, right? So anyway, that's what the living meaning of Buddhism was in that case. I asked Master Ma what the living meaning of Buddhism was to show it directly.

[60:30]

Would you please show it? So he shows it too. I have a headache. So then the monk says, you know, look like, well, that's not what I want. So go see somebody else then. And then the third guy says, well, when I, when the master, the next great master says, well, when I get this far, I can't, I don't understand at all. So there's a living meaning of Buddhism too. All these guys are the living meaning of Buddhism. If anybody was, they were. And that's the way they were, apparently. At least that's what the story says, is that they had headaches and stuff like that. But they had other things. You know, instead of saying they had a headache, they could have said, you know, I'm 5'7". Or, you know, recently I've been getting a lot of parking tickets.

[61:32]

They could have said many things because they are many things, but, you know, they just said something. What occurred to them to say at the time? And for some reason or other, and it's been written down and transmitted since about the ninth century. The story's been transmitted in the Zen culture, and so now you hear it. So what occurred to them to save the time, is that what you're talking about? So what anybody says at any time is… That's what I understand, and that's what I believe, and that's what I try to practice.

[62:39]

That if you go, if you meet a little boy or a little girl, or an old boy or an old girl, and you ask them questions, what they say is a dependent core arising. And it doesn't look like that because we're deluded, but because our fantasies upon these old boys and old girls, they don't look like their body and mind and their speech are dependent core risings. But the teaching that you're listening to is the way this person looks, the way they're talking, and also what they're thinking, which I don't know about, but what I'm thinking anyway, are dependent core risings. hopefully you're always remembering that basic teaching, that basic characteristic of all phenomena. And again, if you listen to that teaching and it sinks into you, then everything you meet, every Zen master you meet that goes, I can't help you, or I can help you.

[63:42]

I've got the answer to all your questions, and if you listen to the next sentence, you're going to be completely enlightened." Whatever they say is the dependent core rising. Or even if they tell us, you're not a very good student, or even if they tell us you're blah, blah. Whatever they say, whatever they say is something really hard to listen to. If you listen to the teaching, you will not get excessively involved with what they say. And you will not, if you listen to the teaching, you will not get excessively involved in what you say. You will talk, you will say things like, I have a new sweater and it costs, I got it on sale. But you'll say that and it'll come out of not being excessively involved when people ask you how you're feeling, anything new. So is feeling excessively involved other things?

[64:48]

It is. So if you receive it, you are practicing teaching. If you receive the excessive involvement, you are practicing other things. Would that be the way of saying it? Well, if you receive it, and you do receive it, but if you receive it and know that you're receiving it, and know that you're not making this excessive involvement yourself, then this excessive involvement is a dependent core arising. Now we're back to what Teresa said before. If excessive involvement arises, and you listen to that teaching, you will not get excess. And when I say listen to, I also mean listen and hear. Listen to it and it sinks in. When actually, so it isn't just you hear the teaching once and then suddenly you're not excessively involved in things. You have to like really hear it. In other words, you have to listen to it quite a few times probably.

[65:52]

in a row. Like, you're feeling happy, you're feeling sad, you're feeling tired, you're feeling healthy. You know, like, for a few minutes anyway, through the zillions of things you go through, that you would apply this teaching a zillion times. And as you do, it starts to sink in, and when it starts to sink in, you stop being excessively involved in what's happening. And then when you're not successfully involved, you begin to manifest the living meaning of Buddhism. Because virtue will start arising out of this non-excessive involvement with things. Including, if you want to pick the example of excessive involvement, and then you don't get involved in excessive involvement. And even if you stop being excessively involved in your experience, you meet people all day long who are excessively involved. And they'll admit it, you know, happily.

[66:55]

that they're rabid about various things, you know. They're really like gripping really tightly to the mask they put on things as being those things, and they're very upset about it. But you can meet them without excessive involvement, and it's virtuous. It shows them some possibilities. that you're right there with them, you know, you're not holding yourself aside, because that's the kind of excessive involvement, to try to stay away from people that are excessively involved is excessive involvement. Just whoever you're given the opportunity to meet, whatever level of they're at, extreme gripping, little bit gripping, whatever, you meet these people, you don't try to trade them in for somebody else, that's excessive involvement. If you're not excessively involved, you accept the gift of the moment. You don't take what's not given, you take what is given, and you deal with it even-handedly, which means you deal with it and you can deal with it even-handedly when you understand it as dependent core arising.

[68:09]

If you look at impermanent things as permanent, then it's hard to be even-handed because you're out of whack with reality. Generally, we start most experiences sort of, what do you call it, behind the eight ball. We start with a disadvantage because the beginning of our experience is usually, this thing looks permanent. It looks permanent right away automatically. That's why you need to be feeding the teaching in to meet the automatic misconceptions. If you wait to bring the teaching in until after you notice you're out of whack, it might be too late because the next moment is coming also out of whack. So we need to integrate these and have them be continuous. Yes? Do we need the teaching because we're born in ignorance?

[69:12]

Or is it something we've forgotten in our relationships? Forgotten? Is that human nature? Like the child who said my truck is red or yellow. That seems natural. It's very much like a Zen master, except that that child is still, what do you call it, that child is still basically ignorant because they still, generally speaking, because they see the truck as themselves. So the child is, if you take the truck away from the child, the child may go into a major meltdown. But in fact, anyway, even though a person is even an ignorant person can show you the living meaning of Buddhism. So, yeah, just by being an ignorant person, being an ignorant person is the living meaning. In Buddhism, ignorant people are ignorant people. And enlightened people are enlightened people. But both of them can show you the living meaning of Buddhism.

[70:14]

If you go up to ignorant people and ask them to show you the living meaning of Buddhism, they'll show you too. Well, they're just being ignorant. But that's the living meaning of Buddhism, that an ignorant person would show you that they're ignorant. A child... being traumatized by their truck being broken, the living meaning of Buddhism is there. Children look at trucks, they think they're permanent, and after they make them like Tonka toys, they make them real sturdy so kids can't break them. And that's a happy thing because kids get very upset when they break their toys. Don't they? Not always, but usually. even if they're breaking themselves on purpose. Like I often talk about these nice wooden toys that are painted. And I used to bite them, like to bite into the wood and bite through the paint. Probably had lead in it, which poisoned my... But I like that feeling of

[71:19]

into the wood and through the paint, you know. But then after I bit, I look, and my toy would have these big teeth marks. So then I feel, oh, I feel sorry for my toy, but I want to bite it again. I like to bite people, too, but, you know, I know they don't like it. So I've given up. But the toys are, you know, actually, I've never been allowed to really, like, bite the people as much as I'd like to. But the toys, the toys really feel good to bite. And I still would like to bite into things. They're better than, like, biting into pencils, because pencils are so thin, you know, you just bite in there. You know, like a little hammer or something that's got, like, a three-quarter of an inch radius. You know, you can really, like, go way in there. But then you have a damaged toy, so it kind of hurts. So children actually think their toys are permanent. They don't think, you know, you give them a nice new toy, they don't think it's going to break in a few seconds.

[72:21]

They don't think, well, this is an impermanent thing. They don't think that. They think it's permanent. Children can project permanence onto things. As a matter of fact, that's why they don't like to have their house moved around too much, and that's why they like hamburgers every single night. They like stability because they think the world's permanent, and yet they're not too good at projecting it as we are. So you start wiggling things a little bit, they go... Reality's like they don't want it. They're trying to build a road over the river. Right? And we go along with them. We'll get you another one. We'll get you one that won't break. We'll get you a puppy that will never die. We'll take you to a neighborhood that doesn't have any streets. Anyway, we go along with that because we feel sorry for them seeing impermanence. We want them to say, okay, yes, the world is impermanent.

[73:24]

Mommy will never go away. Mommy will never die. Now, you don't have to do that, but that's what a lot of mommies do because they feel sorry for their little kid. Are you going to die, mommy? Well, I probably will. So children are naturally ignorant, but their ignorance still allows them, when you ask them who they are, they'll tell you. And even if you don't ask them who they are, they'll tell you. You might put a mask on top of them and not notice that they're telling you. So children show you who they are, and who they are as they're ignorant. And enlightened people show you who they are, and who they are as they're enlightened. In both cases, we put masks on them. But we don't expect necessarily children to, like, enlighten us. So when we put a mask on them, and they don't enlighten us, we feel like, okay. But when we put a mask on the teacher, and then they don't enlighten us,

[74:28]

We think, well, what's going on here? You're supposed to be, you know. I'm showing you. I know it's not what you want, but I'm showing you. I know I'm not being what you want, but I'm showing you. You know, one of the people who left after the weekend, and he was planning to leave, but some other people probably who weren't planning to leave left, said that the more I talked about how when you meditate on dependent core rising, you start to... people are not worthy of confidence. He said, the more you talked about that, the more I thought you weren't worthy of confidence. And he kind of like, yeah, after a while, I didn't have any confidence in you. He didn't... I don't think he said that far, but... You know, so here I am telling you It's a little bit of a dynamic there. I'm telling you, if you meditate on the dependent core rising of me, then you'll come to see that I'm not worthy of confidence.

[75:31]

You say, but isn't that kind of contradictory? Maybe it is somewhat, but that might happen. So, you might come to see that I'm not worthy of confidence. When you do that, you might start to develop a more and more virtuous relationship with me. If you think I'm worthy of confidence, although that sounds nice, like I have, you know, I really have a lot, you're really worthy of confidence. Sounds complimentary, but then you might not have me. You might be excessively involved with me because he's worthy of confidence. I'm going to get that guy. I'm going to put him in my pocket. You know, I'm going to put strings on him because this is like, this is a good thing to have. because he's worthy of confidence, and he's kind of permanent to that. He's reliable, he's stable. So a teacher who's not reliable, who's not stable, what good is that? Well, a teacher like that is a teacher who you're seeing in a more and more real way.

[76:39]

So you lose that nice teacher you used to have, that stable, reliable, blah, blah teacher, and start seeing the reality, and you kind of feel a loss of the good old stable, indestructible teacher. But you're really losing ignorance is what you're losing. Too bad. You're growing up. Doesn't that have to happen in almost all When you say, doesn't it have to happen, you mean doesn't it have... In order for the relationship to be enlightened? Yes, it does. It has to happen in all relationships for the relationship to become virtuous. Because even if you think somebody's wonderful, and you think that wonderfulness is permanent, That this wonderfulness is permanent will backfire in a big way.

[77:45]

Even though it's kind of a nice thing to think about somebody, and the person probably says, that's nice that you think I'm, not only do you think I'm wonderful, but you think I'm permanently wonderful. Sounds good to me. We can make a country western song out of that. There are songs about backfires too. There are songs about backfires too. There are. As a matter of fact, their one country western song goes, everything changes except what the mind makes, except what the mind makes, something like that. Everything will change except what the mind makes permanent. That's one country western like that. Another one is, you know, I think I'm 10 feet tall and I have a six pack of beer and then I think I'm 10 feet tall and bulletproof. Laughter So we sometimes think people are indestructibly good, and that feels good, and can make a song about that, but then we're going to get in big trouble because people are not permanently good.

[78:58]

People are wonderful, people are beautiful, beyond any conception. That's really the way they basically are. And that goodness is ungraspable. But when we put a mask on that fabulous way, then they are permanent, permanently this or permanently that, and then we get in trouble. And we have to like, first of all, listen to the teaching that that's false, and then we develop virtue in the relationship. Because although still people look permanent, we understand that they're not. And then as that virtue develops, we get more and more ready to actually give up, loosen, and let the mask actually slip off a little bit and see actually that the mask is destroyed, but it's like it's off to the side.

[80:03]

And then you can look at things without the mask, which means look at things in a way that you can't grasp them. So this story, the monk's actually asking for the living meaning of Buddhism beyond his doctrinal presentations, and he gets exactly what he asked for and doesn't see it, apparently. He gets exactly the living meaning of Buddhism beyond these permutations of, you know, these logical permutations of existence and non-existence and so on, which the actually for the same purpose. These logical permutations are used to help people to dislodge them from their clinging to what's happening as being the superimpositions. But he's saying, even beyond that, show me something, you know, show me the real, you know, down-home living meaning. And so he does. And kind of like doesn't get it.

[81:04]

Otherwise, it probably would have said, and the monk was enlightened. And there wouldn't have been a next line. But actually, at the end of this story, some people heard the end of the story as, and then the monk was enlightened. But it doesn't say that in the usual. But one person who retold the story to me said, at the end of the story, and the monk was enlightened. Because that's the idea, right? Is that at the end of this conversation, something opens up, and the person enlightened means they get to see the thoroughly stuff. It doesn't mean the whole course is completed, but just they get this view of ultimate truth through the dynamics of the conversation. So that's part of what's going on here, too. There's a dynamic going on which might

[82:08]

work that way. So I'm kind of like swimming together with you in this river of experience with these imputations flying left and right. And there's an opportunity for some kind of like loosening of the adherence to what's happening as being the appearance of what's happening. So there are appearances of what's happening, right? You can see those you can see, those you can know. And they're based on something that is not an appearance, is a non-appearance, but is the basis of appearances. Non-appearance is the basis of appearance. we're swimming in this non-apparent, non-apparent dynamism, and we're coming, and we're in our mind generating appearances which are superimposed upon them. And there's a possibility of things slipping around a little bit here throughout the day, any point in the day it can happen.

[83:19]

The thoroughly established character. So we actually, you, some of you I think actually might be able to see, have already understood that you can see the imputational character. And you can know the other dependent character in terms of the impetitional character. And you can understand that that's not really it. So you've learned that. And now you're getting ready to actually possibly see, begin to see, have a chance to see the ultimate truth. Because it's right there in that mix when the mask slips off the great mystery. But then when you look at the Great Mystery, you don't really see much because it's not an appearance. You're looking at it without a mask, but it's not like there's another mask behind the mask. Behind the mask, it's inconceivable.

[84:25]

It's the basis of conceptual activity, but it's not conceptual activity. So maybe now you're ready to hear about Master Ma when he was even feeling more tired. When he was feeling very, very tired and not feeling very well at all. And one more story at the end is, which I felt is along these lines, which some of you have heard before. It's a story about Suzuki Roshi. I don't know how old he was, but anyway, pretty young. and he was studying with his teacher, Gyaku-jun So-on, and I think there was a number of other young boys, young monks living in the temple, and their teacher served them rotten ... and the boys didn't want to eat the rotten daikon, but the teacher served it to them, and I guess it was not

[85:53]

part of the way they practiced in that temple that they would say to their teacher, this daikon is rotten, we don't want to eat it. No, they didn't feel like they wanted to say that to their teacher. So then when the teacher wasn't looking, maybe when he went back to his room to eat fresh daikon, I don't really know, but anyway, the teacher somehow seemed to have gone away, so then they they took the daikon, the rotten daikon, they took it out behind the temple and they buried it. They just didn't throw it in the garbage because they thought perhaps if the teacher found it in the garbage, they would think that was not appropriate, that they didn't eat it. They gave them for breakfast. And if they would say, you know, but it was rotten, dear teacher. That might not have gone over for some reason. I don't know why. But somehow they just didn't share this with their teacher.

[86:55]

They secretly took it out and buried it. And they didn't go then and say, we buried the daikon. Matter of fact, I think they thought if they buried the daikon, he wouldn't know that they didn't eat it. But for some reason or other, in the great workings of the Buddha way, that guy went back digging behind the temple that day. And sure enough, he just happened to run in and buried daikon. And he took those buried daikon and he washed them off and gave them back to the young monks to have perhaps for lunch. And that time they didn't bury them, they ate them. And Suzuki Roshi said that he had a different understanding after that. I don't remember if he said I had a different understanding of daikons, or if he just had a different understanding.

[87:56]

But his understanding evolved by that process. So I'm not saying that rotten daikon aren't rotten daikon. I'm just saying that when you meet a rotten daikon, the way it appears to you doesn't exist at all. The rotten daikon you see doesn't exist at all. the actual rotten daikon, which is the basis of the way it appears to you, is entirely another thing. And there's nothing about the rotten daikon you see in that rotten daikon. And sometimes you need a rotten daikon to understand that. Because, you know, and I'm saying because, because If a rotten daikon really were a rotten daikon the way you think so, then of course you wouldn't eat it. So when you eat the rotten daikon, you're not enslaved by the appearance of the rotten daikon.

[89:06]

You're meeting the actual rotten daikon. And you get to be intimate with the daikon, which you ordinarily would not think about being intimate with because of your idea about it. of when you see a daikon that looks really delicious, then you think, well, I would like to be intimate with that daikon and eat that one. So maybe in that case, not being able to eat that daikon might help you understand that daikon better, or give that daikon to somebody else. Somehow trying to find some way to help ourselves and others not being chained by the masks because we are normally innately enchained by these masks that our mind projects upon. Yes? Mother Teresa explained

[90:11]

how her genes came about, and how her ear genes came about. She said the way it came about, she was . And there was a leprous old woman by the way. And without an eclectic doll, she picked the woman up and brought her to the center, where she could be taken care of. And that brought about her change. Well, leprosy is rotten. But she got beyond that. Maybe she didn't get beyond it, but maybe in the process of picking up the woman without something that she wouldn't have known about the woman if she just stayed away from her. So, you know, like, it isn't that the boys, when they were forced to eat the... I think it's the context.

[91:18]

You see, when you have a rotten daikon or a rotting person and you don't listen to the teaching, then you get excessively involved with their rottenness. So then you can't, like, pick them up. Because you're like, you know, just like when somebody's like really, really attractive, if you don't listen to the teaching, you get excessively involved and you cannot touch them. Well, it's probably sometimes not appropriate to touch them. It might be harmful to touch them. Like, little children are very lovely. But if you get excessively involved, you can harm them. So, when it comes to a leper, or it comes to a rotten daikon, or it comes to an attractive person, if we listen, I think so, in some sense, you know, she could hear the teaching.

[92:19]

And that allowed her not to be excessively involved in the repulsiveness of the appearance. And if she could touch it, and then when she touched it, then she even understood better. So it's like First of all, the first step is you're not excessively involved. Okay? So then you can approach the repulsive and you can touch the repulsive and care for the repulsive, if that's appropriate, so virtue can manifest. But then when you actually get involved with the repulsive, you sometimes find out it's not repulsive. then you understand the thoroughly established. That's like, first there's mountains. Okay? Then you hear the teaching about the mountains are dependent core risings. Then you start interacting with the mountains virtuously, climbing around in the dragon caves, even caring for landslides.

[93:26]

You do the virtuous thing to protect beings on the mountain. not stopped by so much the appearances, because you hear this teaching. Okay? And then you get situations, and then you get to see that the mountains are not the mountains, and the leprous woman is not the leprous woman. The leprous woman is really, in her case, I guess, Jesus. The leprous woman is God, is the Blessed Virgin, whatever. It's not what it appears to be. But if you practice virtue you can get close to things and then you can have it revealed that the living meaning of the whole thing can come forth. But there's two phases, right? Because we won't even be able to go near the rotten situation. We won't be able to be virtuous unless we listen to this teaching.

[94:28]

And I don't think we have much of a chance. will just sort of stay away from the repulsive and be kind of obsessed with getting closer to the attractive. It's kind of hard not to, unless you listen to this teaching. But again, once again, that's not the whole story. The whole other story is that as you practice virtuously with things, you get more and more intimate with them and then somehow the mask drops off. the attractive mass drops off, and the repulsive mass drops off, and there you are with who knows what this is. So I don't know which change she was talking to. I think maybe the change she was talking about was that she saw the thoroughly established. Because I think she probably already was quite virtuous. and, you know, not picking and choosing so much.

[95:31]

But I don't know the details. Well, I kind of assumed that what she saw was the center of the study. Yeah. You know, like Christians are entitled to God. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Someone also mentioned to me that, you know, I was talking about, you know, considering what people are, what Zen teachers say when they're sick and dying. Someone also talked about, Jesus said some stuff, said some kind of cool stuff. He was in pain, but he was pretty cool. He was actually having a hard time, you know. The Buddha had a hard time too. I mean, he actually had physical pain of a severe form, both of them. But they both kept teaching pretty nicely. the Buddha had a longer stretch to be able to teach because he wasn't — I don't know how long Jesus was on the cross before he died, but the Buddha was sick for — severely sick for a pretty long time.

[96:39]

So there's a lot of while he was sick, which is nice for us. But I like the things Jesus said too during his final illness. And I want all of us to be able to verbally and physically express really good stuff in our illnesses that are coming, in our dying process. Wouldn't that be good? If we all really like care of people as we were going through these difficulties that are coming on us now. So I hope this teaching helps you continue to be helpful to people even though you yourself are tired and have a headache.

[97:47]

And if you can rest, that's fine too. And I hope you help people while you're resting. And I hope this teaching helps. May our intention equally penetrate every being and place.

[98:18]

@Transcribed_v005
@Text_v005
@Score_85.11