I don't know if you can stand it, but looking at you reminds me of a song. Can you stand me to sing it again? Okay. It goes something like this when I sing it. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I can do what I want. I'm in complete control. That's what I tell myself. I got a mind of my own. I'll be all right alone. Don't need anybody else. Gave myself a good talking to. No more being a fool for you. But then I see you. And I remember how you make me want to surrender to Buddha Way.

[01:05]

You're taking myself away, Buddha Way. You're making me want to stay, Buddha Way. Boom, boom. Boom, boom, boom. Boom, boom, boom, boom. So as most of you know, for about two and a half years, we have been contemplating, we've been reciting, we've been reading, we've been copying, we've been discussing the great flower adornment scripture. And in our group, we have kind of reached and been talking about the 15th book for quite a while.

[02:16]

And so then we're next book is the 16th book, which is called religious practice or spiritual practice or anyway, practice. And in both of those chapters, In chapter 15, there's a chorus. There's a chorus in the song. And the chorus goes something like, so that the bodhisattvas can understand immediately whatever appears to them. They can understand whatever appears to them without relying on another. And also at the end of chapter 16, that course is repeated to understand whatever appears without relying on another. And I've been, yeah, we've been on this chapters for quite a while.

[03:21]

So for about six months, I've been kind of contemplating and kind of struggling. What does it mean to understand the teaching, to understand the truth, without relying on another. And I like now to continue to contemplate what that might what that teaching might be. Teaching. And it reminds me of a very famous saying in Chinese Zen which appeared in China speaking of the Zen tradition, saying something like this in English. In Japanese, it's called kyo-gei betsu-den. So in English, it is a special transmission outside the scriptures, outside the teaching, a special transmission outside the teaching.

[04:29]

This expression appeared in China after Buddhism had been in China for about 400 years, had been coming to China from India and Central Asia for about 400 years. And I imagine and I've heard also that the Chinese people received this wonderful Dharma from India and Central Asia. And they yeah, they really embraced it wholeheartedly. Not all of them, but millions and millions embraced the Buddha Dharma. And they were devoted to it and they and they accepted the authority of these scriptures that they inherited, that they received from India. They really devotedly received these teachings, these writings.

[05:49]

And I imagine that after quite a while, they started to feel that these teachings were maybe kind of something to attach to. And that because they attached to the teachings after embracing them, they embraced them, but maybe too tightly. or too, yeah, too statically. And so then these some of these Zen people, people we call the ancient Zen teachers, they came along and started teaching something that in a way had never been seen in the scriptures before. And people, a lot of people really appreciated the vitality of this new way of speaking about reality and practice.

[06:53]

And they even went so far as to think that a special transmission outside the teaching meant that they shouldn't even bring up the teaching anymore. They shouldn't bring up the Buddhist teaching. They seem to actually have put the teachings that they received from India away. After hundreds of years of being totally devoted to them, they kind of like ignored them or even maybe, I don't know, disparaged them and enjoyed freedom from these scriptures. But what I would say at this point is that I'm going to suggest to you that freedom from these scriptures does not mean disrespecting them, ignoring them, not being devoted to them because you're devoted to maybe freedom from them.

[08:04]

Yeah, so how can we be devoted something and be free of it at the same time? That happened in China. And yeah, it was. However, some people who said this special transmission outside the scriptures did not think that that meant being disrespectful to the scriptures, but some did. And then for us here in this tradition coming down through the Japanese lineage. And particularly through this person named Dogen. the great teacher Dogen, he received this teaching. What teaching? The teaching of the Buddha Dharma. He received it. And he also received the Zen teaching of a special transmission outside the scriptures, outside the teaching.

[09:06]

So he received the teaching and he also received the Zen teaching. He received the scriptures and he was devoted to and honored the scriptures. He did not disparage the triple treasures. He did not disparage the sutras and the commentaries. And the teachers that we've met, that I've met from Japan, like Suzuki Rishi, he did not disparage the scriptures. He did not disparage their authority. was accepting their authority and honoring these scriptures. And we have this teaching a special transmission outside the scriptures. So there was the idea we have the scriptures and then we have this special transmission, which is something else. So when this when this Dogen went to China and came back to Japan, he

[10:14]

took this teaching, which means a special, which is literally a special transmission outside the scriptures, and he turned it into total devotion to the scriptures. A separate transmission from the teaching, he turned it into complete, absolute honoring and devotion to Indian and Chinese Mahayana and Hinayana teachings. And there's one of his chapters in his collection of essays, The Treasury of True Dharma Eye, in one of the chapters is called Buddha's Teaching, Buddha Teaching, or Buddha's Teachings, Bukkyo. And in that chapter he talks about this expression, a special transmission outside the scriptures. And he teaches that the intention of the Buddha can only be found in the scriptures, can only be discovered in the Buddhist teaching.

[11:28]

The intention, the meaning of the Buddha Dharma is these scriptures. And he criticizes those who think that special transmission outside the scripture means to disrespect the scriptures. So now we're now most of us are in the West. Most of us in this group are in the United States or in Europe. And we have the Indian, the Chinese and the Japanese embracing of the Buddha Dharma we have all of them around us. So we, we, I, you and I, we have the opportunity to try to find some kind of harmony or some kind of finding our true position, our true seat in the middle of what we hear about.

[12:31]

Indian Buddhism, Chinese Zen, and the Japanese way of understanding the scriptures. And I Lots of stories have come to my mind about this issue. Want to hear some? So one of them goes something like this. So two of our ancestors in our particular lineage, one's called Tosu Gisei, and the other one's called Fuyo Dokai. That's the Japanese way of saying their names. Tosugise is the teacher of Fuyo Dokai. In Chinese, it's Tozu and Dokai, Daokai. Tozu and Daokai. So Tozu is the teacher in the Zen lineage of Daokai.

[13:36]

And Daokai says... to his teacher, Tozu. The thoughts and the words of the Buddha ancestors are like everyday rice and tea. So these teachings of the Buddha ancestors, they're like everyday rice and tea. And then he says, Besides this ordinary daily life of these teachers, where they speak sutras, aside from that, is there anything else? Are there any other words for the teaching? So they give the teaching, and the everyday life of the Buddhas is to give these teachings. For them, it's just like eating rice and drinking tea.

[14:40]

But, you know, is there anything else? Is there a special transmission aside from these teachings that they're giving? Some mysterious thing that's happening in addition to the way they're talking and the way they're gesturing and the way they're eating their rice? And maybe part of the reason he's asking this question is because Daokai has heard about this special transmission outside the teaching. So the Buddhas are teaching, is there a special secret transmission? And then Toza says something like, you tell me, do the proclamations or the decrees of the emperors in their own territory depend on the authority of the ancient emperors. And Daokai was about to speak, but Tozu covered Daokai's mouth with his whisk.

[16:02]

He had a whisk in his hands, which often Zen teachers have in their hands, or whatever, you can use them for getting the flies away. Rather than a fly swatter, they have a fly whisk. Anyway, he had a whisk in his hand, and Daokai was about to speak. He was about to respond to the question, do the proclamations of the emperor in their own territory depend on the authority of the ancients? Daokai's about to speak. Tozu puts the whisk over his mouth. and says, the moment you started thinking you got 30 blows. Balkai woke up.

[17:13]

He woke up. And he bowed deeply to his teacher. And then he started to leave. To go away from the teacher. Who he bowed to. With whom he had this... deep transmission. And the teacher said. Wait. And then the teacher said to Dalkai. He said, wait, wait, Dalkai. And Dalki did not turn around. He kept leaving. He kept walking away. Wait. He didn't turn around. And then teacher said, have you reached the ground of no doubt?

[18:19]

And Dalki covered his ears. So I hear this. story talking about this issue of understanding. Without depending on another. Doesn't mean there's no other doesn't mean there's not a teacher. It's that you don't depend on the teacher. You're devoted without depending. You're devoted without relying. And then. What about your proclamations? What about your understanding? Does it depend on the teacher? And they didn't answer. Al-Qaeda didn't answer.

[19:23]

He just woke up. Do your proclamations about reality, do your understandings depend on the authority of the teacher? And I don't know any examples of people who were not devoted to the teacher who understood how to understand without depending on the teacher. Did you get that? I have not heard of examples or seen examples of people who understand without relying on a teacher who were not devoted to the teacher. The ones who understand without relying on the teacher are the ones who were totally devoted to the teacher. In that way, I think I agree with Dogen.

[20:23]

He was totally devoted to his teacher and his teacher seemed to have a somewhat different teaching from his practice. His teacher says in Zen, we don't focus on the masters. We don't focus on the teacher. So he didn't talk the way Dogen did. Dogen says we must be devoted. We must be devoted to a teacher, even though we don't know what a teacher is. So that was a big story for me. How about you? I have a number of other ones, but I kind of feel like I'd like to. deal with them maybe later. So I have a story about Guishan and Xiangyan, one of his great students. I have a story of Guishan and Dengshan.

[21:26]

And I have a story of Linji and Wangbo. I have many stories, many Zen stories which I think are playing with this issue of understanding without depending on another. which, again, is in the sutra. But the Zen people, without referring to the sutra explicitly, are acting it out in their conversation. Okay? So, if you're up for it, I will bring up the other stories later, okay? the other stories about struggling with this issue of working with the teacher without depending on a teacher that that and that and how that's just an ordinary thing it's just what we do like for example it's just what we're doing now it's just completely ordinary isn't it isn't this familiar isn't this not special it is special it's special

[22:40]

but it's not separate from anything. Charlie? Thank you, Reb. So I hear that it doesn't depend on the teacher, but when... It's slightly different to say it doesn't depend on the teacher, than to say, you don't depend on the teacher. You don't rely on the teacher. You can't do it without the teacher. However, how can you work closely with the teacher without relying on the teaching of the teacher? What comes up for me is the topic of dependent origination. And it's sort of like everything's interdependent. To say that this is a teaching that doesn't depend on the scripture seems like a different sense of dependent to me, just a different sense of the word.

[23:47]

And I wonder if you could clarify or if you want to draw a distinction between relying and depending or how do we untangle that? Because I've been practicing for a very long time seeing how everything is interdependent. And that's one of maybe the ways that this clashes with that. One thing is that because everything's interdependent, nothing can be separate from you. You can't be separate because of this interdependence. However, even because of interdependence, and also because of interdependence, you can't grasp anything. Because when you reach for me, you get everybody else. So the interdependence... is actually how everything has the same everything interdependence is also how everything has that interdependent nature and everything's the same and again when you're the same as the teacher then you don't rely on the teacher when you understand that you're the same as the teacher you don't rely on another and you also don't rely on yourself

[25:06]

because you're interdependent too, and you can't get yourself. But basically it's like, because we're interdependent, we're ungraspable, and in that interdependence, we can't get away from each other, and now we watch out to see if, okay, if I can't get away from these people, can I also like to let go of, find a way not to rely on them, not to rely on what I'm interdependent with. I'm attracted to the idea, as I think maybe a lot of people are in Zen, of, oh, good, this is something that – this is a kind of teaching that stands on its own. It doesn't depend on the scriptures. I don't have to read those. Yeah. And it seems kind of awesome. It's just like, boom, it's just this crystalline teaching that could be right here. But I think depend is the catch there because then also – I'm attracted to the interdependence of everything that feels supportive.

[26:08]

And so, you know, if you want to have your your teaching and eat it, too, it's kind of like I think that that's. Well, that's that's what I'm. Studying here, so thank you. And so we and we are we are pretty devoted to this suture for two and a half years. But not just devoted to the sutra, just to be devoted to sutra, but be devoted to the sutra, to be devoted to all beings. And the people who are the leaders in this devotion have been devoted to the teaching and not to not to feel like they're pressuring us to do that, but just setting the example that they are they are this teaching. THEY ARE THIS TEACHING. THEY ARE THE TEACHING. AND ALSO THEY TELL US STUFF LIKE UNDERSTAND WITHOUT RELYING ON ANOTHER.

[27:10]

HE DIDN'T ACTUALLY SAY WITHOUT RELYING ON A TEACHER, BUT THE TRANSMISSION IS NOT JUST WITH A PERSON, IT'S WITH THE MOUNTAINS AND THE RIVERS AND THE WATERS AND THE WHOLE EARTH. THE TRANSMISSION IS WITH THAT. AND THIS TRANSMISSION IS You could say it's not relying on another. Is it the same as saying that it's a transmission that relies on everything? As to say it relies on nothing? Well, you can say it relies on, but you can say it is everything. It doesn't rely on everything. It's inseparable from everything. Yeah, but I'm trying to get something I can understand. If we back away too far, it doesn't make sense anymore. This is a non-dual transmission. It's not with another. And right now you need to listen, which you are, to another talking to you. Right. Without depending on the other.

[28:13]

Because this is a non-dual transmission. And also this is just us talking in this strange way because we have these strange people who are studying the Avatamsaka Sutra. It's just kind of far out. But that's what we're doing. That's our daily life for the last two years. I'm with this sutra in my daily life. It's like rice and tea to me. And there's nothing in addition to that, really, that I need. Because all I need is my daily life, which happens to be this sutra. But you don't have to read the sutra, but it might be nice to know that the sutra is telling you, telling you, you don't have to read the sutra. But if you're not devoted to that teaching, you won't understand anything. Matter of fact, you'll be depending on others, which is natural.

[29:20]

We're dependent on their mother. It's natural. But this is something without depending on your mother. without relying on your mother, but being devoted to your mother. Without relying on the teacher being devoted to the teacher. Offering yourself to the teacher without trying to get anything. Offering yourself as an expression of gratitude rather than acquiring something. Offering yourself as an expression of joy. This is what the ancestors have done. And we can do it too. We are. But we have to watch out to make sure we're not trying to, that there's not something other that we're trying, we're relying on other than this right now. Okay.

[30:23]

Thank you. Hi, Rob. Hi, Steven. You know, I'm just thinking I've, you know, I've felt like I've had a good connection with you and some of it's, a lot of it's been online. And, but I, I noticed, you know, when you say, when you welcome everyone, I've, I've always felt welcome in your sangha. And, but I don't, you know, I don't feel like, I don't feel like I need a lot of face-to-face time. I enjoy face-to-face time, but I don't feel like I need a lot of it because I felt like we've established a connection. And it seems to me, I'm just teasing out this... It has something to do with... It has something to do with... Well...

[31:41]

For example, I don't think I've received any money for Zen teaching. Nobody's ever paid me to teach Zen. Nobody's ever paid me to teach Zen. Yeah, go ahead. Zen Center paid me, actually. But Zen Center doesn't pay me anymore, fortunately. So now nobody pays me. Okay. People do give gifts, but they don't pay me for teaching. They don't pay me to get something like teaching. They pay me as an expression of Buddhadharma. I mean, they give me gifts because giving is Buddhadharma. And you give me gifts.

[32:42]

Right now you're giving me a gift, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think people give me gifts. Sometimes even when they pay. That's the truth. People give you gifts. Right. And we can do that. We can give gifts to each other without relying on each other. And you get a gift, I think, because... probably can only be a gift because you're available to, you're available to welcome into the Sangha any, any being. Yeah. Right. That's, that's, that's my, that's my aspiration. So I would just think that that would be, you know, there's a lot, a lot of different ways I could go with that, but, or we could go with that, but it seems to me that you, Because of your willingness to welcome into the Sangha any being, then that is your commitment to not betray others.

[33:55]

I don't know if it's Guishan's socks, but it's not forbidden to wear socks for others. I mean, as soon as you're wearing the socks and you're no longer welcoming, then you're moving from gift into payment that is not gift and problems start to emerge. Yeah, maybe so. Well, anyways, thanks for the connection and the welcome. You're welcome. Yes, I'll wrap.

[34:57]

So I have a bit of a follow-up question on what Charlie brought. I think I was thinking of this teaching that I heard from you that you said something like a bodhisattva joyfully enters duality and or the world of duality something like that and that sounds to me like that is also kind of receiving the teaching is to enter joyfully into duality and without there seems to be also a tension to me like is that doesn't that mean In a way, we are depending on duality to be able to joyfully enter it. Don't we depend on there being at least the impression of another in order to kind of joyfully enter that impression of another being there.

[36:10]

We welcome that. Enter the realm where there appears to be others. You can enter that realm. There's an appearance of others in this assembly right now. You've entered that realm. And you can, and without depending on others to understand. Others are an opportunity for you to understand others. Rather than, you depend on, you rely on others to understand them. I can't do it without you. You're not. I can't understand without you. But you don't do my understanding for me. I don't rely on you. I practice with you. I'm devoted without relying on you in order to understand.

[37:10]

But I can't do it without you. It's like a parent. Yeah. Parents sometimes They don't really rely on their children to be parents. But they can't be parents without their children. But they don't like, I depend on my children to be a good mother, a good father. They don't have to get into that. They can, but they don't have to. or I depend on my, I depend on my children being healthy in order to be a good parent. You don't have to depend on them being healthy. You can be devoted to their health without depending on their health and teach and take care of them no matter what. So this is to, this is to take, this is a instruction about how to be devoted to beings in the realm of duality and, and the beings who seem to be other to be in that realm.

[38:17]

in a non-dual mode of devotion without dependence or reliance, which is very subtle. And yeah, we're built to slip into the idea that we depend on things that are other than us, rather than we dependently co-arise with other beings. We arise with them, not because of them. not we rise with them brand not not that they're other than us and make us it's very subtle that's why i've been struggling with this teaching now for quite a while and there's more good stories coming up that are very subtle thank you thank you very much that clarified for me Hello, Tension Roshi.

[39:32]

Hello, Great Assembly. Hello, Anne. Hello. I have a question, and I will check in to see if I'm relying on Tension Roshi's response. Does grief stem from relying? Right now, it seems that... It seems that way. Sorry, the screen froze. I didn't... Are you acknowledging something? I didn't get what you were acknowledging. Oh, so I... I have a question, and I'm checking in to see if I'm relying on an answer, if I'm attaching to maybe what your response will be.

[40:48]

Okay. So my question is, does grief stem from relying? It seems that's my experience presently. Yeah. I think grief arises. One of the conditions for grief is attachment to something that has changed. But it's a good, it's very good. If you can open to the grief, that will help you. not attached to this thing which seems to be other and help you realize that it's not other. But yeah, I think I don't think the Buddha grieves in the world of change. But I think the Buddha encourages people who are trying to hold on to things and not let them change, not accepting that they're changing the Buddha.

[41:57]

encourages them to open to the grief that comes. Because when we're alive, our body gives us grief to help us let go. And if we open to the grief, then another part of us opens to the change. So Buddha is already open to the change, so Buddha doesn't grieve over change. But Buddha encourages people who are not quite accepting change to accept the grief, and then they can accept the change. Did I just hear you say that the grief is given to us to help us? Yeah, it's our life gives us grief to help us not, what do you call it, not confine our life to... a world that doesn't change. So our vitality gives us grief.

[43:02]

It's kind of a medicine. Our vitality gives us the medicine of grief to take the medicine and then our vitality will be unleashed. Because if we're not accepting change, our vitality is being dragged down by that lack of acceptance. So our vitality says, Here's some grief to take. Eat this grief, open to this grief, and then you're open to change. And I want, our vitality wants us to be open to change. Our vitality wants us to join the flow of our ordinary life. And it's the same thing that our ancestors want. They want us to embrace the world of change and if we're having trouble then we're given grief to help us accommodate to change so in that way we say you know impermanence is Buddha nature so when you're focusing when you're open to impermanence which includes maybe

[44:21]

Grief around the impermanence, you're opening to Buddha nature. Thank you for that very beautiful exchange. That was deeply touching. Great. Yeah. So on this question that you brought up about relying on teachings or relying on teachers, I have a lot of ideas sort of bouncing around on each other in my head. And one is that in talking about it as

[45:25]

tea and rice, that kind of makes me think about the conventional teaching or conventional mentoring in which I think there is devotion and respect and trust, so much so that, you know, one can take in the teaching and then experiment with it and then begin to experiment it. And then go back for more and, you know, that's the conventional way of, that's also a conventional way of teaching that relationship. And I'm wondering kind of if I'm missing something about the specialness of the transmission and framing it that way. Well, the additional thing that's being pointed out here too, in the situation you described, than just practice learning in that kind of environment and watch out for relying on another so do all those things experiment with the teaching which you respect and and with the teachings that you receive maybe from someone you respect do that experimentation and watch out for is there anything that you're doing

[46:56]

that's other than what you're doing. Is there anybody who's other than what you're doing that you're relying on? Is there any way of being other than right now the way you are, that you're relying on, that you think is gonna be good to help you? So that, add that to what you said, add that to the conventional. But the conventional doesn't, I would like to make the conventional now Something that has this new teaching, this additional teaching of not relying on another to understand what's going on with your study of the Buddha way. So kind of don't short-circuit that process of experimentation. Yeah, that's right. Don't short-circuit it by reaching out for something out over there. Even though it's... is part of the situation.

[47:58]

Don't reach for it. Just take care of this right now. This current, impermanent situation. And be open to ongoing give and take if that's available. And be open to things, to people who appear to be other. To your teachers and friends who appear to be other, be open to be open to their questions about what you're up to. And they might be saying, are you by any chance relying on me? And you're kind of like, hmm, thank you for that question. Well, honestly, to some degree, I am relying on you. So what to do about that? Well, you just did it. You confessed that you're doing that. It doesn't stop it. Confession is not trying to stop things. It's trying to be free.

[49:00]

It's for the sake of compassion, not to stop things. I confess that I'm to some extent relying on you and I'm not confessing to get rid of my reliance. I'm confessing to be free of the reliance, to practice without it. I don't need it, but I've been using it even though I don't need it. But I really don't need it. I can be ordinary without relying on somebody other than myself. And everybody other than myself helps me be myself, my ordinariness. That's ordinary. But we sometimes want something extraordinary, and that's also part of our nature. Yes. And you're saying that it's the, that the specialness is in the ordinary in a way, are you?

[50:05]

You might say the special, I would say the special, what is a special? It's special, but that character also means can be separate. So it's- It's a special that's not really special. Yeah. So it's not that it's wrong to say that the Buddha transmission is special or separate and doesn't rely on anything. It's not wrong to say that. It's just wrong to think that that means that you don't respect some of the other like. teaching it you don't then stop respecting this teaching because you've heard of this special transmission outside the teaching even if it's outside you still respect it and even devoted to it so how to be devoted without reliance yeah that's a big question and so

[51:14]

We have, to some extent, been devoted to this sutra for two and a half years, and we're maybe going to continue, but now we're bringing up the sutras telling us, understand without relying on another. The sutra is telling that why we're studying the sutra. So then that makes me question how we're studying the sutra, which I think is, that's what the sutra wants us to do. It wants us to question our practice. That's what chapter 16 is about. It's about questioning practice. Is this the practice? Is that the practice? That's over and over. That's many, many questions. And it's also then the punchline is understand this teaching without relying on another. Yeah, sometimes I have really serious questions about things I see and read and the teachings are in the sutras. You know, it's like something will come up and I'll just go, whoa, what? Those are not settled issues.

[52:18]

Do they ever settle? Do they settle? Well, they're not going to settle if you don't settle with them. Yeah, okay. been sitting here trying to hold on to all the ideas that I had. Like I didn't want to lose the thread of things that I wanted to bring up with you. And then that's really funny. Thank you for telling us. It's funny. It is funny. Especially for today. Yeah. We're talking about not relying on another. Yeah, that's a Very steady attachment.

[53:21]

I have to get the things out so that I can really say them right anyway. Here we go. I'm going to try to say them right anyway. I could have just... Never mind. So, yeah, the question you brought up today about... Can I say something? Yeah. It's good to start with confession and then say what you're going to say. Okay, good. Thank you. So you did it. Thank you. Yeah. Well, the question you started, and it's really centered of what you presented about not relying on and being devoted to, right away reminded me of the, you know, Bajangs and the Phongs. Because it's the same kind of question. An enlightened person, does an enlightened person fall into cause and effect? No. bam, fox, what's the real answer?

[54:23]

Does not neglect, does not ignore cause and effect. So it seemed like it was something like that. And then I came to my usual thought, which is everything comes down to form an emptiness. When you say rely on nothing, that means you don't pick something out from everything existing together and then rely on it. And that's emptiness. Then the other one is form. Oh, we're devoted to X. Sutra or person. So here's finally my question. Being devoted to X is also seeming to separate it out. Like we're not spending two and a half years reading... Mein Kampf, that's the villain that comes up in the mind. We're not devoting two and a half years reading something that we don't single out.

[55:29]

Anyway, so have we lost emptiness there when we pick something or somebody to be devoted to? No, we have not. The thing we're devoted to is what... is what will be the thing we realize is empty. We're devoted for the sake of realizing its emptiness. Would I have the same benefit if I decided to be devoted to the novels of Mark Twain as to the flower adornment scripture? Yes. Darn. especially if you're in your study of Mark Twain, if you are open to others questioning you about your study of Mark Twain. Because you're not going to be able to understand Mark Twain without being in conversation with people who call you into question about your reading of Mark Twain.

[56:34]

But this sutra, of course, is set up that we're going to be questioned about this sutra while we're studying it. That will help us not just study the sutra, and stay in our own little bubble about what the sutra is. So if you study Mark Twain properly, you will realize the emptiness of all dharmas. But you're not going to be able to do that if you're not open to being questioned. And a lot of people maybe do read Mark Twain, and they're not open to being questioned about what they're up to. If they were, though, they would understand the emptiness of Mark Twain. we need to do this together. And we can, and I remember back in 1968 and 69, 68 Suzuki was starting to study, teach the Lotus Sutra. And so I went to Tassajara to study the Lotus Sutra with him. And, but he was sick and he hadn't come to Tassajara yet.

[57:37]

This is early 69, January 69. And we heard he was coming and we're getting ready to study the Lotus Sutra with him. And people were saying, what's better about the Lotus Sutra than comic books? We were asking that very question back in 1961 at Tassajara. And at that time, too, I felt like, well, it's not that the sutra is better than the comic books. It's not. It's not better. And the sutra makes it even more difficult to understand that by saying this sutra is the best. But if you study the comic books properly, and you study the Lotus Sutra properly, you will understand the emptiness of the Lotus Sutra and the comic books. Okay.

[58:39]

Most people are studying Time Magazine, and do we still have Time Magazine? Anyway, people who are studying these things, if they get help, they can understand the emptiness of these things. You seem to convey to us that there is a benefit in studying the Aptamska Sutra that we might want to pay a special attention to. I think there's a benefit of studying comic books too, but I don't feel like devoting the next 10 years to comic books. Because I already studied comic books quite a bit in the past. I've done that, would have been there, done that. But I feel like I would like to study something we have not studied before. And we have not studied this before. But I'm not saying that the Avatamsaka, and the Avatamsaka Sutra is not saying that in every page of every comic book, there are innumerable Buddhas in every page of the comic book.

[59:43]

That's what the sutra says. And some of the comic books say the same thing. Not all of them. But some of them say that. And they have these things where worlds break through the page, right? They have the page breaking open. And like, you know, like in this book, Book of Serenity, the first cover on it had a piece of paper like broken open and inside the piece of paper was form is emptiness, emptiness is form. It's like... The comic book will burst open and reveal the Mahayana if we study it properly. And so will the Sutra. But I'm not really, I don't want to spend the next 10 years studying comic books. I want to do something with people that haven't done before. But if also, if we went on a pilgrimage, if somehow we could get everybody together here, all these 85 people and go on a pilgrimage, we could do it there too.

[60:50]

not saying that avatamsakas is better opportunity and the sutra is saying that too every particle we can enter into the bodhisattva samadhi and then nice thing about choosing the sutra is then people ask questions why are we studying the sutra well good let's ask that why aren't we studying studying comic books yeah no problem you can ask that oh I'm going to attempt to be devoted to you with a hunch that you might help me see the emptiness of you. I don't know if I will, but I aspire to. Okay. I aspire to, and I tell you, you know, Linda, I am questionable. I know. Okay, thank you. You're welcome. I am empty.

[62:05]

Yeah, and you're also my teacher. I'm so fortunate to have an empty teacher. I'm willing to have an empty teacher. I'm so fortunate to have a teacher. So I was getting ready to ask you my question, and then you said something, which all of a sudden is like this little mini explosion for me. It's like, I don't know if it's... my relationship with you that has me listen to you this way. So I'm sitting here, I raise my hand, and then you say to Linda, it's good to start with a confession. And I thought, okay, well, I better confess right now. But then I think, no, you probably mean that more broadly. And so I started to think how valuable that could be if I approached interactions with people in a space of confession. So now here I've got a brand new teacher, and I wasn't even looking for one. I don't know if you were even trying to give one. But, I mean, that's kind of, for me, part of what's amazing about this student-teacher relationship, that I almost can't help but listen to you as though what you're saying is meaningful.

[63:19]

Anyway, I don't have a period on that sentence, but I'm impacted. Thank you for your confession. You're welcome. And also, it would be great if you could listen to everybody else that way, too. That could be dangerous. Wait a minute. It's dangerous to listen. It's dangerous what you're doing with me, too. Oh, come on. It is. It would be dangerous because you might grasp what I'm saying. Yeah, but what if I'm doing a good job? I won't. If you don't talk me right, I won't grasp it. I'll just get it. Then it's not dangerous. Right. Okay, I'm going for that, and I'm not going to listen to everybody the way I listen to you. No. That sounds like a terrible idea. I'm not going to listen to Donald Trump the way I listen to you. I think it would be good if you did. Do you really? I'm not forcing you to. Do you really? I really do. Oh, no.

[64:22]

and going the way I am I think you should question everything Donald Trump says right but that doesn't mean I'm not telling you that you should believe everything you think about him okay I'm not saying you should do that I'm saying you should question everything that you think he is okay okay I get that and do the same with me okay okay fine okay confession over Oh, no. Here was the confession I was going to do. The confession is that the words seem to mean a lot to me, and I don't know if they mean so much to everybody. And the example I'm going to use today is the word rely. So as we're having this conversation, I'm kind of digging into what does rely mean? What does rely mean?

[65:25]

I rely on? Yeah, look at it. I mean, is there anything more you can say about that word? Because when I start looking at it, the word disappears. What's important is you're wondering what that word means. That's where it's at. So, again, if you start looking at it, you might say, I looked at it and I thought I was actually thinking. I was actually thinking that what's going on here isn't enough, and I needed to reach out and get something else. You might discover that. I'm not saying that's what it means, but you might discover, yeah, I'm not paying attention to what's right in front of me. This reliance makes me look away from what's right in front of me. And now I'm back being somebody who was looking someplace else. And I think maybe that's what relying is. Thank you. And that's not the end of the story.

[66:28]

Thank you. Hello. Can you hear me? Yes, I can. Yes, okay. Hello, brother. Thank you. Thank you. So I'm thinking about how to apply this teaching to a marriage, because it seems like the realization that I'm having in the last year or so is that the purpose of marriage is to wake up. It's not to be happy. There's periods of happiness, but it seems it's clear to think, okay, well, The marriage can be used to wake up to the parts of me that... And waking up is about the happiness of all beings.

[67:33]

Right. And questioning what I think about my wife for the sake of awakening. I think this, I think that. But do I question all the things I think about her? I want to. That would be good. Yeah, to inquire whether my thoughts are true, my concepts about her are true. Is that true? I think this, is that true? Yeah. So you might ask a question. I think I have this fantasy about you. Is that true? Thank you.

[68:52]

Hello, Rob. Hello, Enrique. Hello, Great Assembly. Hello, Enrique. This may be a little goofy, but I was hung up on your question earlier. Do we still have time? We have Time magazine, sort of, in a different form. But I've been thinking, there's another sense, and our practice is sort of We don't have time where we're trying to step out of time and be in a place where it's non-duality. So I guess relating it to this idea of a transmission, in my mind, in our conventional world, when you transmit something, it goes... goes from A to B. It's like a travel.

[69:54]

It's something that happens in time. But if we're in a place outside of time, the transmission, there's a sense of the transmission has already happened or never happened. Is that kind of what you're talking about and not relying? Because you're also kind of outside of time. Well, one thing that comes to mind when you're hearing your words is that some people might think if they hear about a special transmission outside of time, they might overlook the way time is manifesting right now. They might disrespect time if they thought that peace and harmony were something outside of time. They might disrespect it.

[70:57]

And that would be, I would think, I kind of feel like that would be a misunderstanding of the teaching that there's a special transmission outside of time. Maybe that's the purpose of time in our lives is to give us the opportunity TO RESPECT RATHER THAN DISRESPECT. YEAH. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. AND THAT ALSO REMINDS ME THAT NOT SO MUCH THAT THE LOTUS SUTRA OR THE AVA TAMSAKA SUTRA ARE BETTER THAN COMIC BOOKS OR BETTER THAN TIME MAGAZINE, IT'S JUST THAT we have a monastery, we had this monastery, and in the monastery there were almost no copies of Time magazine, at least not any recent ones, and there weren't very many, there were no comic books.

[72:04]

So in the valley where there's no comic books in Time magazine, what are they going to read? Well, we have the Lotus Sutra. So it's a place where People will study the Lotus Sutra, not because it's better, but because that's all we've got in the monastery. And so I'm trying to give Lotus Sutra and the Avatamsaka Sutra a chance in our lives. Because when you get back to the city, Time magazine and comic books are going to win. They're going to get all the attention. So I'm setting up a special situation to give the sutras a chance. Because otherwise they can't compete with Time magazine and now we have the internet. They can't compete. So we set up a special encouraging situation. Give them a chance. You gave Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn a chance. You gave comic books a chance. Now let's give the Mahayana scriptures a chance.

[73:06]

Let's learn how to respect them without attaching to them. As better. than comic books. I'm devoted to you not because you're better than comic books. It's just I'm devoted to you to give you a chance. Comic books have been given enough of a chance. OK. We have two more people with their hands raised, their palms, their green colored palms. We have just a couple minutes, so if you can be quick, can you be quick? Yes? Okay, go ahead, Sandra. Go ahead. Can you be quick, Basia? I can be very quick. I don't really have any questions. I will confess that I sat down today because I... out of old sentiment of being your student and having you being my teacher and then when you brought up this topic I was like oh interesting I have been ejected by Zen for quite a while and had to learn to live on my own without Zen and discovered that I'm learning just as much as I devoted myself to four years of doing this mega garden

[74:37]

And it was such an incredible teaching of emptiness. And so, you know, I'm just saying hi and appreciating you and listening to everybody with curiosity. And that's about it. I'm not trying to get anything out of it. I'm not reading Avatamsaka yet because other things come up. You know, I haven't been reading for quite a while. Gardening was more exciting. But now I'm reading, for example, Zen and the Birds of Appetite by Thomas Merton. Very interesting review and bird eye picture on the Zen practice and Christianity because I'm toggling between the two. So just interesting, but I'm not trying to get anything. There's no answers. You're not trying to get anything, but you're respecting everything. I'm appreciating very much.

[75:40]

Very much. Yes. I wanted to say thank you. Okay. Just deep, deep gratitude. I get tangled up in the words and then you will say something or it's like just a direct transmission. And then I come back. Thank you. I'm so glad to be in your presence. And to be with the Great Assembly. So thank you.

[76:23]

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