but also very difficult to understand. There was a way in which I could really get it, and there was a way in which it was just going over my head. And one of the places that I was thinking about and trying to bring it down to home to me a little bit was in winning a relationship with somebody and getting to talk louder. Did you hear the beginning? I said that I found that Rebs talk very timely, except on some level hard to understand, on another level it made sense, and I'm trying to understand the level that I had trouble with. And... When trying to put it in a more personal stance, I was trying to think of it in ways I can get stuck in relationships, stuck in self and other. And, um, so could you talk about that in the frame of what you were talking about today? Is this clear? Okay.

[01:01]

Well, um, One way it comes to me is that while having a conversation with somebody and maybe paying attention, trying to hear them and hear what they're saying and maybe ask them questions and then also maybe seeing how you feel, checking on yourself. Is there also somehow, in the midst of that, is it possible to find somebody who is really willing to not know anything about what's going on? The woman who is not accompanying all this that's going on, who really isn't like, I mean, there is a feeling like, kind of like, geez, this conversation doesn't seem to be going very well, you know?

[02:14]

Or, well, now it seems to be, now it seems to be, maybe it's almost going to work out after all, you know? You know, we're running into trouble there for a while, but I, I stopped in a second, and I asked how it was going, and I got some feedback, so now I seem to be connected again. It seems to be going pretty well, and so on and so forth. Oops, now it's, no, oops, uh-oh, now, wait a minute. Wait a second here. Now, this stuff's going on, evaluations, and then, and evaluations, while constantly everything, everything you're doing is new contribution to the conversation, plus there, she or he is also giving new data, which kind of like Am I supposed to interpret that now? Do I have to acknowledge that? Should I say something now? Blah, blah, blah. All that's going on. This is like a waterfall, right? Or murky water. Not only murky water, but you've got these babies in your tummy. You can't stay here forever. It's tiring. You've got to keep your body... You're not using your food anymore to scan yourself.

[03:18]

All it's going for is just to get you up the stream and it's getting weaker and weaker. Is there somebody who's there who's, you know, basically not concerned with all this, who's really renounced all these concerns, that it go this way or go that way? Is there a way to contact that person who is in that place within ourselves? Well, there really isn't a way to do it because... Not a technique, in other words. There's no technique, right, because if you have the slightest technique, you make it another concern. It comes together, yeah. Yeah, like, what's the meaning of this? You might stop and say, what's the meaning of this conversation? The meditation is based on the interconnectedness of it all, and if you step aside, you've lost the interconnectedness.

[04:22]

The one who's not disturbed is the one who's supported by the ups and downs of the conversation. The one who accompanies what's happening is one who gets pushed around when things go up and down. But the Zen uprightness is to not be pushed around by the ups and downs of the conversation. Just let them pull up for you. Yeah, and in fact, your life is always supported by the ups and the downs equally. And it isn't like you're more alive when you're up than when you're down. Matter of fact, sometimes you feel more alive when you're down, and that's the problem. You can't stand to be that alive when you're down. But actually, the one who's not getting hung up is the one who appreciates how whatever's happening is completely supporting her life. And, and it kind of, you want to like identify her, right? You kind of like want to step aside and try to find her. Where is she? Or where is he? Kind of like, oh God, somebody's relaxed here. Somebody's, somebody's cool.

[05:24]

But if you step aside, that distance will upset you. Do you understand? If you, if you, if you would see that person and say, oh, there's that cool one in the middle of this torrent, that separation then would throw you for a loop. Somehow you have to, uh, You have to be so concerned with this that the circumstances don't matter. And in fact, the circumstances will constantly test. Not constantly. Sometimes the circumstances may seem to be saying, oh, there really is somebody who's really undisturbed here. I mean, sometimes the circumstances may seem to be literally saying that actually somebody's perfectly relaxed here. Like when sometimes you're sitting very calmly. and the breeze is very calm. There are moments like that where the circumstances seem to be saying, hey, there's somebody here who's not being disturbed by anything. But then what happens when the big white wave comes crashing in? That one gets blown away. We're talking about something that nothing gets knocked away.

[06:26]

And again, if you see that, then that's going to get knocked away. If you see the meaning, any kind of realization you have of this state, then makes it an object, and that's not it. It's not an object. It's not something out there. So this kind of practice is inconceivable, and so if you have a little trouble understanding it, it's because what I'm talking about is inconceivable. You can conceive of it, but your conceptions of it will eventually cause you some problems. So your conceptions of what I was saying, you right away had some problems with. What I'm talking about is something that nobody can have any conceptions about. I mean, nobody's conceptions are going to work. It's an experience, right? It's not even an experience. It's not an experience. Experiences are experiences of something or awareness of something.

[07:30]

It is the nature. It is the nature of experience. It is what you call the common experience. It's the common assembly of all experience. All experience is like this. All experience is completely unmoved, undisturbed, and naturally liberates itself. That's common to all experience. No experience ever got bogged down. There never was, there's no such experience as experience that kind of like gets stuck in itself. There is the experience of being stuck. There is the experience of being released. There's the experience of being thrown into jail and being released from jail. Those are experiences. So, you know, and we care about those experiences. Now I'm getting thrown in jail. Oh, boo, boo. Now I'm out of jail. Great. These are experiences. What is it that doesn't get involved that doesn't accompany getting put in jail or getting let out of jail.

[08:34]

Somebody doesn't get pushed around by incarceration and release. However, incarceration is never stuck in incarceration. And liberation is never stuck in liberation. Each event is just itself and never the slightest bit more or less than that. And because of that, everything is always liberated from itself. So what I'm talking about is inconceivable liberation. And it's really the only kind that really works. Because if it's conceivable, then what happens when your conceptions change? And it's gone. Inconceivable liberation is inconceivable because the inconceivable liberation is a liberation you already, it's already functioning in your life right now. You're constantly being liberated from your situations. And you sort of can't get, it's hard to conceive of that. You may sort of say, oh, I got it. But then that won't hold.

[09:35]

So you say, well, how do you practice with this? Well, you just be upright in every situation and gradually and suddenly this will be revealed to you. And that's That happens, but it's not an experience, because experiences are like the sound of the wind, or the silence of the wind, or the pain in your back, or the pleasure in your back. These are experiences. The experience that I'm talking about is not an experience. It is the common quality of every experience. If it were an experience, it would come and go like other experiences. But this experience is not based on anything. not based on meaning or absence of meaning. This is what the meditation is about. It's about something that, you know, you'd be wasting your time if you weren't concentrating on it.

[10:38]

Meantime, you have to be involved in activities, and those activities are not necessarily a waste of time unless you forget about the fact that they aren't happening. If you forget about the fact that what's happening is not happening, then you're wasting your time. If you forget about it, if you don't remember that what's happening is not happening, then you're wasting your time. And when people hear that, they think, well, I guess I should stop. Let's not have anything happen. But that's another kind of happening, which is fine. Let's just sort of like eliminate all happenings. That's fine. But if you forget that whether that happens or not, nothing happens, then you're wasting your time. So the famous story about this, one of the famous stories about this is a monk is sweeping the ground and his brother comes up to him and says, you're really busy. And he says, you should know there's somebody who's not busy. So you should remember that, and this, of course, he could have been meditating.

[11:46]

He could have been in the meditation hall meditating and his brother could have come up and whispered in his ear, you're busy, you know, you're just sitting there thinking away. You're sitting still here, but really you're just totally hysterical. And he could say then, you should know that there's somebody who's not hysterical here. If you remember that there's somebody who's not hysterical, then you don't waste your time. It's not the content of whether you're hysterical or not hysterical, whether you're depressed or psychotic. It's whether you realize that what's happening is coming to all moments of your life. There's something that runs through everything. The word for scripture in Sanskrit and Chinese is thread.

[12:47]

And literally it's a thread that goes through the text but it means a thread that runs through everything sacred texts are about what it is that runs through everything there's not there's two truths as a technique to teach people but really the ultimate truth is that there's one truth there's one ultimate and it has something to do with the one who doesn't get caught up in myriad circumstances but again to try to get out of myriad circumstances you'd be caught up And myriad circumstances are basically how we get involved and try to get out of circumstances, how we try to negotiate circumstances, how we try to clean our house. You say, okay, well, cleaning my house, that's myriad circumstances. Well, stop me cleaning my house. Then you have a messy house. That's myriad circumstances. No matter what house you come into, there's circumstances. If it's completely empty, there's walls. You take the walls down, it's open space.

[13:50]

If it's open space, There's no way to avoid circumstances. That's one of the circumstances. But there is a way to not get involved. And that's not something you do. That's the common characteristic of all circumstances. It's that all circumstances, by their own nature, are spontaneously liberated. When the fish is in the water, it's spontaneously liberated from not being out of the water. when she flies through the air with the greatest of ease, that's another liberation. Buddhas don't look, the Buddha eye doesn't look out and see some people liberated and other people not. Everybody's liberated all the time. But if you hold a little bit, then, in fact, there is experience of being stuck.

[14:50]

So this is a wonderful dynamic of our life. Okay. Now do you understand? I don't know who was next. Maybe you were. The other element of the Santa jumping out of the water, as you're talking, it sounds like the mind trying to jump out of itself. somehow. And this whole image of the salmon jumping out of the river up into the next thing, there's a symbolic place that that speaks to me. And just as I listen and watch and hear the struggle and how I can turn what you're saying into another concept, then no, that's not it. That's okay, though. That happens. The salmon is symbolic of our own spiritual progress. And our spiritual progress is symbolic of the salmon's activity. Buddhism is like an analogy for salmon.

[15:52]

And salmon's activity is an analogy for Buddhism, because Buddhism is for people. But salmon teach Buddhism. They don't practice it because they don't have our problems. But they demonstrate the same law that applies to us. They get stuck. They spring out. They die. they're successful or unsuccessful. I think some salmon don't make it, right? If the conditions aren't right, if the stream's polluted, if people go in and kick around and if people tromp over the stream too much and kick around the gravel too much, their eggs won't hold, and so on. If you dam up the creek, and so on, there's conditions which can stop that from happening. And that's why we have to face that there's conditions we have to create for our practice. So we have Zen centers and so on.

[16:56]

And sometimes the conditions of the Zen center get messed up so that the practice doesn't work here either. Like at Tassahara, I'm making a salmon-like campaign to move the meditation hall to another part of Tassahara. and make the meditation hall into a lecture hall because the meditation hall is in the wrong place. The salmon can't jump there very well. And I also want to move the propane tanks and the shop to a different part of Tassajara because right now it's like they're placed right in the middle of the valley, you know, where the energy comes in. I'd like to move them out of the way. So, you know, there's conditions. But we've been doing pretty well under the conditions. But, you know, basically Tatsahara's polluted by human positioning of equipment.

[18:02]

And we've been doing very well in a polluted stream. But I think, you know, it'd be good to move things around a little bit there. So you can move these conditions, but when you start moving these propane tanks around and moving buildings around and stuff and moving people around and moving your feelings around, before you do that stuff, which hopefully is wholesome, before you do that, first of all, clarify what's fundamental. Otherwise, this is sentimental compassion. Otherwise, you're just pushing pieces around. And again, if you start pushing pieces around without clarifying the fundamental, you're just going to get caught in your feelings again and go up and down and get tossed around. Got to verify the one that's not busy. And again, the story goes on. It says, you should know there's one who's not busy. And then the other guy says, are there two moons? Like you have these busy people here and then there's one who's not busy.

[19:07]

Is there another person in the room someplace that's not busy? Or is there another person inside you someplace or on top of you or behind you that's not busy? Where is this not-busy person? And then the first guy raises his broom and says, which moon is this? The broom he was sweeping went, which moon is this? So raise the busyness. And the busyness itself, is that the busyness or is that the un-business? So usually you think he's sweeping, you know, so the un-busy one wouldn't be sweeping, right? But if the unbusy one wasn't sweeping, that would be busy. Do you understand? If you stay away from busyness, that's the kind of busyness. So the unbusy one is there if there was activity or not activity. The unbusy one wouldn't be someplace else. The nature of activity is unbusiness. The nature of inactivity is unbusiness.

[20:07]

Don't forget that one. And if you stay in touch with that one, then if you try to practice virtue, your virtue will be successful. Yes? Are you talking about unconsciousness? No. I'm talking about the nature of consciousness. Not virtuous consciousness. The nature of consciousness isn't versus consciousness. The nature of consciousness is common. The nature of all of our consciousnesses is common. All of our consciousnesses are produced by conditions. And because they are produced by conditions, we can't get a hold of our consciousness.

[21:09]

Our consciousness is elusive. Our consciousness is alive. Our consciousness is an expression of life. You can't get a hold of life. There are living things, you can get a hold of living things, but you can't get a hold of life. There are conscious beings, and you can get a hold of conscious beings, but you can't get a hold of consciousness. The nature of consciousness is that it's ungraspable because it's alive. You can't get a hold of life. And the way to realize that you can't get a hold of life is to stop trying to get something out of life. In other words, you let go. In other words, you let yourself live. But again, you don't let go as doing something, make that an object, because then you're manipulating to calling and letting go.

[22:15]

The nature of your life is that it is constantly being let go by its own nature. How do we harmonize with our freedom? Just be upright. which isn't doing anything, it just means you just be with your freedom. But that means you give up all other trips, all other manipulations. But again, it doesn't mean you stop doing them, because stopping doing them will be another manipulation. It means somehow you go along with all that's happening so completely, so fully, that you're just upright with things. But it's not easy to do, just like it's not easy to go surfing, even on mild days not to mention a day like today it's like surfing it's like staying like riding the waves of your experience and if you can ride the waves

[23:19]

then basically, even though this is happening or that's happening, even though it's a big wave or a little wave, or even this part of the wave or that part of the wave, or you have this kind of surfboard or that kind of surfboard, or you're this kind of person or that kind of person, if you feel this way or that way, no matter what, basically there's one thing you're always doing, and that is you're surfing. And even when you get thrown for a flip, you're still a surfer. And you may die, but you're a dead surfer. Yes? Sentimental compassion is when I think that I'm separate from you and that I'm helping you. When I see you as an object, a suffering person, and I think I will help you or I feel sorry for you. Okay, that's sentimental compassion. Rather than, what's the fundamental? Why would I even see you in the first place? Why would I care about you in the first place?

[24:22]

What's my ultimate concern? My ultimate concern that you, separate from me, are happy? I'm concerned with your happiness, but I'm also concerned with my own. There's some connection between your happiness and my happiness. That started leading me back to the fundamental. What's the ultimate? The ultimate is that we're not two separate beings. Temporarily, however, I see you as separate. If my compassion is based on my seeing that we're separate, it's compassion which is better than hatred, but it's based on believing that we're separate. And then, you know, my activity of helping you is going to get pushed around by the vicissitudes of our relationship and whether you seem to be getting better or worse. When you seem to be healing, I'm going to be subject to, you know, getting somewhat inflated. When you seem to be getting sicker, then I'm going to feel depressed.

[25:27]

And I can only be inflated and depressed a certain number of times before I'm going to basically say, get me out of here. I can't stand to help this person anymore. She's gotten better and worse 55 times in the last three seconds. I can't handle this intensity. But still there's something, there's a fundamental way of understanding that where I can stand to be in a situation where you're changing all the time. And that is this balanced state of mind where I'm unmovable like the heavens, at the same time I'm flexible like the earth. And I have those two balanced so that I can stay with my concern about what's going on, at the same time flex and change. And you can have sentimental compassion if you fixate on somebody as an object. That's basically what a lot of people call compassion. And it is a kind of compassion. It is compassion. You do care about people.

[26:29]

It is not fake. You do care. You empathize with their pain. You want them to be happy. It hurts you to see them hurt, and so on and so forth. That is compassion. You're suffering with them. That's good. But the fact that you see them as objects... And you forget the fundamental, you forget the root of this whole thing, namely that you're rooted together in one living system. If you forget that, then you get pooped out and drained and burned out in your relationships with these beings you feel sentimental compassion for. You become basically a slave of your emotions. as other people are too, who aren't compassionate, but either way. If you want to become free of your feelings, then you need to somehow realize the one who isn't involved in believing that we're separate, who isn't accompanying the myriad things, who isn't accompanying the idea that we're separate.

[27:31]

Does that make sense? Good. I think she was next. What's your name? Lee. Lee was next. I was kind of confused by that question, because it seems to be sensitive that when you feel supported by them, it allows them to opt to be solid, but to participate by them. Yes, that's right. That's right. The world... What I mean by the world is not the earth. By the world, what I mean by world is worldly activity. Worldly activity is activity based on your belief in yourself. Worldly activity...

[28:38]

is activity based on what you think. Like you think, oh, this would be good. Right? You think this would be good. So then because you think it's good, you think you do it. Or you think you shouldn't do it. All right? Activity based on what you think is called worldly activity. Because what you think is just what you think. It's not necessarily good. You know, does that make any sense to you? Actually, to some people that doesn't make any sense because they actually think, well, yes, what I think is good is good. A lot of people, that's exactly what they think. They think, I think abortion should be illegal and therefore I'm protesting outside this abortion clinic because it is wrong for people to be able to have abortions. Some people think that. That's what they think. And they think what they think is true. And if you say, you think what you think is true, and they say, yes, it is true. I know that it's true, and I know that Jesus also agrees with me. That's what they think. And they think that the thought that they know what Jesus would do, they think that that's right.

[29:42]

That's a worldly thought. What you think is true, whatever you think is true, whatever I think is true, including what I'm telling you now, if I think this is true, then that's a worldly thought. If I just feel like I'm talking to you, to the extent that I'm just talking, and don't necessarily think that what I'm saying to you is true, then I'm not involved in worldly activity. To some extent, once in a while, I do speak to people, and I just open my mouth, sound comes out, and I don't really think it's true. That does happen over here. Sometimes I even speak quite emphatically, and if you say, is that true, I would say no. For example, watch. It's cold. I don't think that's true. It's hot. And you say, how about, it's windy. Now, if I think that's true, like I said, it's cold, but not really cold.

[30:45]

So I don't really think that that's true. But I really do think it's windy. To just say it's cold is not a worldly activity. That's just like a fish going. It's just a ship fish going. It's cold. It's hot. But if I think it's true that it's windy, then that's worldly activity. When the fish jumps through the air, it's not worldly activity unless the fish thinks it's true that it's jumping through the air. So when you realize that everything supports you, then you realize, I'm just here, and for whatever reasons, I don't know what the reasons are, but something's coming together to make this guy talk. When I realize that, then I can give up what I'm talking. And I really don't care that much about what I'm saying. Because I don't think it's true or false. It's just a person making some sounds. But to the extent that I think I'm speaking the truth, that I must give up. And I do give it up. When I feel that I'm a mouthpiece of the whole earth, then I give up my worldly activity, which means I give up the sense that I'm doing this on my own.

[31:53]

So giving up my sense of self or losing my sense of self, losing my sense of self is connected with losing my sense that I speak the truth. Losing my sense of myself and losing my sense that I speak the truth is born of feeling connected to all beings. When you speak for all beings, you're not a self anymore. And it doesn't need to be true anymore. It's just life. In fact, everything everybody ever says is speaking for all beings at that mouth. And in that sense, it's life, it's not truth. However, I could say it's truth that it's life. And I did say that. However, if I think that's true what I just said, then that's worldly activity. Now... Have you been having your hand raised for a while?

[32:56]

No? You? Colin, do you have your hand raised? Was your hand over there someplace? Was your hand? Was that your hand? Okay. What are you talking about, sir? Remembering that we're is that a kind of detachment? Is it a kind of detachment? Well, if you remember that there is somebody who's not engaged, then that's not a detachment. That's just another thought. I'm talking about non-attachment. In other words, When I talk about non-attachment, then I'm just as busy as somebody who's talking about attachment. Or I'm just as busy about somebody who says, stop talking. My talk is as busy as the next person's talk.

[34:00]

My thoughts are as busy as the next person's thoughts. So the thought of someone who's not busy is just another busy thought. But we are talking about somebody who is detached. We're talking about Buddha, who's a being who's not attached. There is a Buddha present all the time. Buddhas don't come and go. Now, they put on this show, you know, of coming and going, but they just do that to be nice. Actually, Buddhas don't come and go. That's not the way they see it. The fact that things come and go is Buddha. The fact that this experience happens and then goes away, that's Buddha. But the Buddha didn't come and go. The Buddha is there in the coming and going of everything. So if you watch the coming and going of things, and that's all you're concerned about is the coming and going, then you see Buddha. But that's called forgetting the self, because usually we're really concerned with not have this come and have that go. It's the manipulation of the comings and goings that obscure the Buddha.

[35:04]

But just watching the comings and goings, the Buddha is revealed. But that's kind of painful. So that requires uprightness in the midst of these comings and goings, which we have some, you know, we have some trouble just watching the coming and going. Fair? Yeah, well, I was just thinking, how could you qualify kind of non-attachment, um, non-attachment, um, reaches through Buddhist practice, non-attachment, which is a very visual experience activity. For example, um, killer killing by being non-attached, like, um, characters, you know, those, or Americans in the Gulf War. Uh-huh. I'd have to be there and you show me somebody who is committing murder who is not attached.

[36:10]

I mean, like, for example, if I said to them, stop, don't kill, would they be able to say, fine? Well, then I wonder if they're really that flexible. And it's not so much that, let's say, a Buddha was going to, if someone was going to be killed, the Buddha might be coming to sort of like try to stop the killing, perhaps. And if you say to the Buddha, don't stop the killing, the Buddha might still go ahead and stop it. Okay? But you would be able to see how the... how the process works in one case. In the other case, there would be an ignorance of the way the process is working. When there's detachment, there is awareness of how the process is going, and the process demonstrates its inner penetration and its flexibility. It demonstrates the truth of how things work. In the other case, if the person is not tuned in to how things work, then they're not detached.

[37:15]

And you can not kill and also be attached. You can not kill... not squash the bug and be attached. But you cannot kill the bug and be detached. Murder does not go with attachment. So if you show me a case of supposed murder coupled with non-attachment, then you have to show me that case. I don't know about that case. The teaching of Buddhism is that non-attachment, freedom goes with non-killing. Is that because, I guess, Buddhist non-attachment also is at the same time a very direct connection? I mean, who is there to kill? Yes, exactly, exactly. Buddhist non-attachment is an expression of our connection and our harmony.

[38:20]

Therefore, there cannot be killing. There can be death, but not killing. You know, some people die, but we don't necessarily say they were murdered. Other people die and we say they're murdered. The murder is in the eyes of the person who is attached, or the people who are attached, that's where the murder is. The non-murder is in the interconnectedness of the causes and conditions. Yes? I'm totally confused. I'm not confused. I think there is a part where in practicing detention, in martial arts, for instance, where you're taught to strike at a certain vital point,

[39:25]

there is a point where you feel detachment in actually harming something. You can feel there is that sense of detachment. You're just focused on what you need to do, it's done when you're detached. And that experience. So... And also, when... in life when you experience the love and compassion in one moment which is a wonderful thing to experience but in the next moment experience hatred and deep sense of rage and anger how is it that feeling the loving and the joy and the compassion is easier and then there's a resistance that comes up to feeling the anger or the resentment or the hatred both seem to have a passion the same passion well maybe we should deal with those examples separate okay so you tell me about how it is that you've harmed someone and it was detachment tell me about that okay

[40:55]

Tell me about how you harmed someone and they were detached. Did you harm someone? How did you harm them? Okay, well, it was in a strike. How did you harm them? What was the harm? In my elbow. It's through martial arts. Your elbow touched another person and you harmed them? Yes. What harm did you do? Well, I didn't I didn't... A person fell to the ground, so there was harm. What was the harm? What was the harm? That they fell to the ground was harm? Is that just saying? Yes, they fell to the ground. I played martial arts, I played martial arts, and I've fallen to the ground many times and never experienced any harm.

[41:57]

So I don't understand why, if you hit me and I fell to the ground, I would be, if it was in martial arts, especially if I went in there to do practice martial arts and you touched me and I fell to the ground, I personally have done that quite a few times and I never felt harmed. But there's a certain amount of injury and there's, you know, there's injury. But I'm just telling you, I never felt it when I was thrown to the ground. So what, in this case, did the person say that they were injured? Unless you usually end up with a few bruises on your body. But did the person, did he say or she say that you harmed her? No, but they rubbed their arm. I know, but... When I played those sports, I knew before I entered that that was part of the deal. That soreness was part of the deal. And I was perfectly happy to have the soreness. As a matter of fact, the day after some of these events, feeling sore, I felt good. That was part of the process.

[42:57]

I did not feel ever harmed in any sport in that way. If you make the example of where you would hit the person and want to hurt them, and you hurt them, and you hurt them in a way that they experienced as discouraging, you know, humiliating, they could barely go out with their life, they considered suicide. This would be an example of harm. Now, in that case, I don't see how you could say you were detached in that case. And then it would be harm. Your example, to me, I don't see your example as an example of harm. Now, you could probably give us some examples of harm in your life, too, I would guess. In those cases, though, I'd like to see if there's some detachment. But this case, I know in sports, there's lots of times detachment on both sides, and people are feeling pain, but both parties are up for it.

[43:58]

Now, if you're not up for it, in certain sports, and then someone hurts you, like when kids first start playing, they sometimes cry and stuff, and they didn't realize, and you say, well, that happens in this sport. Do you want to continue to play? And they sometimes say no. Sometimes they say, well... You mean everybody gets hurt that way? Yeah. Oh, okay. And they continue to play. They don't feel hurt anymore. So in that case, I don't see it. But there's lots of other cases where I do see it. But those cases, there's not detachment. Those cases, I feel there is interest in hurting the person. And also when the person is harmed... then I think when you see the harm, then you're connected to when you see the harm because you're connected to the harm. So you're not detached. Let's go on to your next example. You can come back to this. Did you say something like, how is it that in the case of rage and hate, we feel one way, in the case of warmth and compassion, we feel another way?

[45:12]

What was your, how did you put that question? Thank you, Marie. It's easy for me to accept. and anger. It's easier for me to feel the loving feelings of compassion that love presents us. When I may feel anger... When you have feelings of compassion or love for someone... When you have feelings of compassion or love for someone... You know what? When you feel... When you feel... When I feel... Love and compassion for someone... It's a wonderful feeling. You can have a capacity for that. You have patience with that, right? Yes, I don't have patience for when I'm angry and I want to resist it and push it away and I don't like the feeling of it. Uh-huh. So for me, it's... Yeah, it's not... It's a very strong rage and...

[46:18]

It's a very strong emotion, as much as the feeling of deep sense of love and connection. Both are strong. One I can be with, the other I want. So this is an example, if you excuse me for saying so, of a woman who is companion to the myriad circumstances. Lately, wherever I go, not wherever I go, but I go different places and in various places, I've been asking people a question. I was down in the mountains of the Los Padres forest and I asked the people I met in the mountains, And then I came back here to this valley and I asked people here.

[47:26]

Last night I asked. And a little while ago we had a class and I asked. And now I ask again. Eventually I may stop asking this question. I guess I'll stop when people tell me to stop. That'll probably be when you've heard it enough. So my question this morning is, or at this time is, what is your ultimate concern? So if you all take care of that question, I can stop asking it out loud.

[48:40]

When you hear objects falling on the roof, you might think, oh, maybe my ultimate concern is that the roof will stay on. That could be your answer. But ultimate means when the roof falls down, when the building falls, it caves in, really in the end, what is it? What matters most? What's most fundamental to you? That's what I want to know. That's what I ask you. And when we find, when the answer to this comes, then it might, and if it comes, maybe when it first comes, it might not be real crystal clear.

[49:53]

So you may have to ask again. You may just fly by quickly and then you may ask again and it may appear again and again. But when it gets clear what is most fundamental to you, then just stay with that, stay close to that, and that concern will display to you what's needed in addition to discovering it, what actions follow. In order to discover this, in order to have this ultimate concern of ours revealed to us, many circumstances, many conditions come together to make this possible.

[50:58]

One of them might be that somebody asks you what it is. that you hear the words, what is your ultimate concern? That may be part of what helps you look for it. I really can't tell you which direction to look But I propose that just being upright and present, not leaning into the future or into the past, not leaning to the right or left, not getting caught by considerations of good and bad, right and wrong, self and other.

[52:11]

but just being present and clear, it will reveal itself to you. In order to be upright, you have to be upright someplace. You have to have a seat. Right now everybody here has a seat, but I don't know if you really feel like you found your seat where you are. I don't know if you feel that this is your seat where you are right now. But anyway, we have to find our place, our seat. And we have to sit there. Our

[53:14]

most fundamental concern will be revealed to us at our seat. If you look at the story of the Buddha, on the night of her awakening, she took her seat and sat on the earth. and said, I think this is where I'm going to sit, and I'm not going to move from this spot until I understand. So all Buddhas, all awakened beings, must take a seat. You must decide to sit still someplace in this world. And sitting still means that you have to give up everything else.

[54:22]

But sitting still, you have to give everything else up, but looking for what, and discovering what's most important to you. Mainly it means give up your human concerns. It means give up the way you're thinking. Give up what you think is true. Listen to what's happening. Listen to what you think is true. Yes. Listen to what other people think is true. But just listen. Listen to how you feel Listen to how it is for you. Listen to what you think is happening and realize that what you think is happening, understand that what you think is happening is nothing more than that.

[55:37]

Namely, it's nothing more than what you think is happening. I'm not sure, but I think today is United Nations Day. That may be false information. But anyway, you heard it here. It's also a local salmon day. It's a day of stories about salmon. I've known for some time that salmon, I've heard stories, actually. I've heard stories that salmon run up and down the creek, which is at the base of this valley.

[56:46]

It's called Redwood Creek. And it runs through the famous, I guess, the first national forest, isn't it? Is Mere Woods the first national forest? Does anybody know? Anyway, Muir Woods has a stream it runs through called Redwood Creek. The white people call it Redwood Creek. And I heard that there's salmon running swimming up and down that creek. Salmon have been born in that creek. And they go down the creek and swim in the ocean and come back and swim up and lay their eggs there and more salmon come. And this has been going on for some time. And a few years ago, people saw salmon doing that again, which made them very happy, some of those people, because not only do they see salmon, but when you see salmon in that creek, it means a lot more than that there's salmon in the creek.

[57:54]

It means that the creek is a certain kind of a creek. It means that there's some gravel in the creek. It means that the water is flowing off the mountains in a certain way. It means that people are not building things in the mountains that they could be building. It means that the whole ecosystem of the surrounding area of that creek is working in a certain way. A lot can work and still have no salmon. But if a few things aren't working, the salmon won't be there. When the salmon are there, you know a lot of things are working. You know a lot is alive. So when you see a salmon, you're not just seeing a salmon, I realized, someone told me. You're seeing the functioning of the whole ecosystem. You're seeing a vast story.

[59:04]

When I heard that, my understanding of salmon changed. Salmon, I think in that case, are called an indicator species. They indicate something about the whole system. And today I heard another story about the salmon in that creek. A couple friends of ours were walking in the Redwood forest, and I think they wanted to see if there was some salmon running in the creek a couple of days ago, and they did see a salmon, a female. The water was murky, but they thought they could see her in there. And by the time they get back to the creek, these salmon are tired.

[60:19]

Have you heard about that? They get tired swimming all the way around the ocean to come back to do their work. And especially, I guess, when she has the eggs in her. She's tired. And so she came to a place, a pool, and at the head of the pool was a waterfall about two feet high, I heard. And she tried to jump up over the waterfall, but she couldn't do it. So then she continued to, according to this observer, continue to swim around in this pond, in this puddle. And I think I heard, if I heard correctly, the observer said that continue to swim around studying. What was that female salmon studying as she swam around in that somewhat murky water?

[61:28]

Murky not because of unhealthiness but because of the rain. What was she studying? For a fish to take her seat, of course, is to take her seat in the water. We don't usually think of taking a seat in the water, but to a fish, water is like a palace. It has, in the water, the fish have like streets, you know. There's streets and intersections and houses and stuff like that. And little zendos and things that they can sit in. If you go up to a fish who's in the water there and you say, but this whole thing's flowing, they would be shocked. That's not the way they see it.

[62:30]

So she's in the water there studying. She's in there swimming around. She has a concern, I guess. Now is it her ultimate concern? She wants to reproduce. I don't know how fish think about reproducing. But it looks like she wants to do it. She's come a long way to get to the head of this creek and lay her eggs. So this species goes on. Anyway, suddenly, out of I don't know where, she jumps again. And this time she jumps up and makes it. Where does that action come from? Now, I wasn't there, you know. This is his hearsay from me. And then the other person who watched this happen, he said that...

[63:35]

that the way she jumped was that the waterfall was coming down. There was one part of the waterfall which was very turbulent, but there was a side part of the waterfall, a little kind of side corridor that was very smooth and silky. And she jumped up on that thin little part the second time she tried. So I wasn't there, but now I can imagine now. What was going on with that salmon in the water there? Was she swimming around and was she like looking out of the corner of her eye and checking out the waterfall and saying, hmm, there's a smooth spot over there? Last time I tried over in the middle and that didn't work. So this time I'm going to go for the smooth part. I don't know. What does a fish eyes see? Maybe she looked and saw that and then went for it. I don't know. I can't speak for the fish, really.

[64:44]

And I can't even speak for you humans. Actually, I can't speak for anybody. Can't even speak for myself. But there is speaking. Where does the right action come from? Where did that jump come from in that fish? So, from some point of view, I don't know what point of view, some people, we may look like fish swimming around in a puddle right now here.

[65:47]

We think we're sitting still, but someone else may, from their point of view, see us moving and swimming, swimming around in a murky pool, trying to figure out how to jump up over the next waterfall in the direction of our ultimate concern. The man who was watching the fish said the fish was very patient.

[67:12]

You know, someone would say, oh, you're being anthropomorphic, projecting patience onto the fish. You're patient enough to go out there and sit and watch it. So you think the fish is patient. But patience, the root of the word patience in the Buddhist word for patience means basically capacity. In that sense, I think you can say the fish had the capacity to swim around in that water. And each of us has the capacity to be here. And in some sense, patience is to appreciate that you have the capacity, that we have the capacity to swim around in confusion, in murkiness, in blindness. Blindness in the sense that we can only see a little bit. We can only see this little puddle and maybe up through the water we can see a waterfall from a certain perspective and guess it is time to jump.

[68:28]

Do we have the capacity for our own experience Patience points to that capacity that we have. Those fish also, the observer said, were very tired. You could see how tired they were. Both the males and females were tired. Again, we don't know if they know that they're going to die. When they get to the end and lay their eggs and fertilize their eggs, that's the end of their life. That's the ultimate purpose of their life is to die there. Will they be successful? Will we be successful?

[69:32]

literally swimming around in this pond, do we have the capacity to renew and refresh our certainty that we are rooted in this water, that we are rooted in this world, in this earth, and in the whole cosmos, If we have the capacity for this experience, can we patiently swim around here and little by little feel how the water supports us? How the water can be like a, what do you call it? A springboard for self-transcendence. Can you sense your rootedness in the wind and how the wind can support your flight?

[71:37]

So what I'm proposing is that in order to feel the support or Self-transcendence is necessary. Or the other way around, feeling the support of the wind and the water and the earth and fire. Feeling the support of the elements that make our life. Feeling how we're rooted there. is the real source of appreciation of our life and others' lives. Not theoretically feeling it, but feeling it actually in this difficult and painful moment. How can I make myself

[72:43]

open to receive this information of how I am supported. There was a famous lay Zen person named Pang who lived in the Tang Dynasty.

[74:59]

And he visited the various great Zen teachers who lived in China. And one of his favorite questions to ask was, who is the person who doesn't get involved in the myriad circumstances? Who is the woman who doesn't keep company with 10,000 things? Who is the female salmon who doesn't get caught in the circumstances of being in a pool at the base of a waterfall?

[76:22]

She is in those circumstances. She is in the water. There is a waterfall. And she's just tried to leap up once. So one of the circumstances, in addition to the waterfall and the water that she's in, and that she's a female, and that she's a salmon, and that she's full of babies, in other circumstances, she just tried and failed. But who is the woman, who is the fish, who doesn't get involved in the fact that she just tried and failed? Who is that? Who is the one who doesn't get involved in that this person just complimented me or insulted me? It's my circumstances that I just got insulted. It's my circumstances that I've just been abused. This is my circumstance. I have to admit that's what I think. They just gave me a plaque that says I did a good job.

[77:38]

I have to admit, here it is. It's engraved in bronze or brass. This is my circumstances. But who is the person, who is the man who does not get caught by this gift or by this insult? Who is that? Right now all of you are in some circumstance and you always have been and you always will be. Who is the woman who is not caught by these things? Who doesn't keep company with all that's happening to her? Who just swims and flies in the air Who is that? So, Lehmann Pong went to the great teacher, Stonehead, and he asked Stonehead, he said, who is the person?

[78:47]

who doesn't keep company with the 10,000 things. And just before he finished saying things, Stone had covered Leman Pong's mouth with his hand. Who is the person who doesn't keep company with the 10,000? And he had a great awakening. He leaped over the top of the temple and laid his eggs all over the sky. He had the capacity to be there and ask that question of that Zen teacher. That was his puddle. And he wrote a verse. This is his spawning activity. My everyday affairs are no different.

[79:52]

That's the way it is for me now that I've awakened. Only I myself naturally harmonize. No place is grasped or rejected. Nowhere do I go for or against. Who considers crimson and purple honorable? The Green Mountains have not a speck of dust. Great spiritual powers and wondrous working functioning. Hauling water, carrying firewood. Swimming downstream as a baby, swimming clockwise in the Pacific Ocean, returning to my home at five years old.

[81:06]

I go upstream now and leap up over the waterfall to fulfill my life. Just at the right moment, I leap. supported by the entire watershed, even those weird Zen people up in that valley nearby. Laman Pong didn't die, though, like the female salmon. So what did he do? Went and visited another Zen teacher. This time he visited Master Ma, the horse master. So he says to Master Ma, who is the person who doesn't keep company with 10,000 things? And Master Ma said, wait till you have swallowed all the water in the West River in one gulp.

[82:14]

Then I'll tell you. And Leman Pong woke up again, this time even more devastatingly, and wrote another verse. In the Ten Directions, a common gathering. Everyone studies not doing. This is the place where the Buddhas are chosen minds empty, they return successful. A common gathering.

[83:27]

Where is the place where we all gather? Which is the place where all Buddhas return successful. Where is that place? Is it a puddle in the stream nearby? Is it a traffic jam? Is it a meditation hall? Where is the place? It's not those places. All those places are the same place. That puddle, that murky puddle down in Muir Woods is the same place where Shakyamuni Buddha sat that famous night. It's the same place. It's the place where everybody comes together and helps everybody.

[84:31]

It's the place where the water and the wind and the earth and fire support our life. It's the place where we spring forth spontaneously into the right action. it's the same place it's right here can you see it? can we have the capacity to feel all this help I have the capacity to feel some help, but if I hold on to myself and make myself small and reject some help, if I reject some help, if I don't feel supported by

[85:58]

any circumstance, if there's one circumstance or two circumstances among the myriad circumstances that are supporting me right now, then I'm keeping company with the myriad circumstances. When you feel supported by everything, you don't keep company with anything. But when you only feel supported by these people or these kinds of statements, Then you keep company with those that you choose and those you reject. Then you don't see that you're in the common place of all Buddhas. Then you're not upright. But when you're upright, you see, you appreciate that you're rooted in the entire world.

[87:02]

And feeling the whole world support you is what Lehman Pong meant by the person who is not accompanied by the world. Feeling the support of the world, the complete support of the world, is to renounce the world. When you feel the support of the world, you're willing to give the world away. But if you don't feel support of the world and you only feel support from part, you hold on to the part that's supporting you A brave Japanese man who happened to be a Zen priest moved to New York City in the 1930s. His name was So-Kae-An. One time, 25 or 40, I don't remember, Christian ministers came to visit him in his little temple in New York, in Manhattan.

[88:08]

They were doing field trips visiting non-Christian groups. So they asked him, on what are you meditating? And he said, I meditate on emptiness. And they said, well, if you're meditating on emptiness, what meaning is there in emptiness? And he said, if there was meaning in emptiness, it wouldn't be emptiness. And then a woman asked, well, aren't you wasting your time meditating on emptiness? And he said, if I were doing anything besides meditating on emptiness, I would be wasting my time. Now you can translate emptiness into what I just called how everything's supporting you.

[89:16]

Because when you realize how everything's supporting you, you can't remember who you are. And you can't remember who anybody else is, either. So, in a sense, it is a waste of time if we're not appreciating and renewing our sense of how we're rooted in all being. If we lose track of that, we're wasting at least a little time, at least this moment we're wasting, missing that opportunity. Maybe this is what he meant by swallow the whole West River in one gulp. Maybe that's who we really are, is we're the one who can swallow the whole West River in one gulp.

[90:30]

We are, actually, the gulping of the West River. Not because we're so What? Special, but that we're just that way. We have the capacity to experience what's happening. Just like that salmon had the capacity to be where she was. And finally, the conditions were right for her to complete her work. So now it's time for us to complete our work. I laughed because when I flipped this piece of paper closed, the director of the meditation hall's hand raised the striker for the bell.

[92:00]

Now, did I feel supported by that? Was that a support? Was that an award? What was it? Was it a female salmon? Was it a high wind? What was that? If I'm upright, I don't know what it is, but something happened. So what do we say? Hit it, Jerry.

[93:00]

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