Part of Zen practice is sometimes said to be, to try to sit upright, or to stand upright, or to walk upright, in a world of suffering, to try to be balanced and relaxed, in a world of horrors, and in a world of beauty, to try to be relaxed and upright, and not shrink

[01:01]

away from the horrible things that appear in the world, and not lean towards the beautiful things, and hopefully encourage others to be balanced and upright in the midst of the beauties and cruelties that occur among us. So I try to sit upright and walk upright, but I also feel like putting my head down in shame and pain when I see what's going on in this world. I feel like putting my head in my hands, or throwing up my arms and dying.

[02:09]

When I see human beings being so cruel to each other, and I feel so impotent, and feel like I'm making almost no contribution to such tragedies. Being upright, I feel responsible for what's happening. I don't lean into blaming others. But if I feel responsible, then one of my responses is to cry, and to not feel very happy. Or, to feel a big dent, a big cut in my happiness.

[03:18]

People have drawn, have made paintings of the time of the death of the Buddha, and around the Buddha in these paintings are pictures of his disciples. Some are bald-headed monks, who almost are tearing out their no-hair, in great anguish of the passing of their teacher, the loss of the Buddha in this world. But other of the Buddha's disciples, the Bodhisattvas, are also attending to the Buddha's passing, but are serene. And the Buddha is serene. Does it help this world for us to be serene, and to have a body which is balanced and harmonious?

[04:59]

Is that a helpful offering of a life in such a world? I don't know. Step by step, moment by moment, person by person, how can we realize harmony? Or what is the way that realizes harmony?

[06:10]

How can we be with our own feelings of anger, or confusion, or greed, selfishness? In such a way as to harmonize body and mind, and become free of unskillful modes of being. And then once free, how to even let go of our freedom, and be with others who are not free, and walk through the world of suffering with them. And if they die, die with them. And if they're born, be born with them. And if they die, die with them. And if they're born, be born with them.

[07:15]

Wherever they go, walk with them, in harmony. How can we be that way? Is that way helpful? The ancestors of the Zen tradition, sometimes say that in order to harmonize body and mind, in order to have harmonizing relationships, nothing surpasses renunciation. Renunciation of what?

[08:21]

Renunciation of concern for gain and loss. Renunciation of the view of gain and loss. And then, if there could be renunciation, letting go of, giving up the view and concern for gain and loss, can that be done from a place of total affirmation of all life? How to balance giving up concern for gain and loss, and life-affirming feelings for all things. Very difficult to learn this.

[09:25]

Very subtle balance. How can we learn to do something good, just to do something good, without a thread of gain running in with it? People can do good things. People can do skillful things. People can put medicine on another person with skill. But they can also weave into that skillfulness a gaining motivation, or a fear of loss. And then the goodness is twisted, and disharmony arises, or at least the seeds for disharmony arise. Very subtle.

[10:34]

Where is the middle way between addiction to sense pleasure and rejection of sense pleasure? So the Zen ancestors recommend practicing the Buddha's teaching for the sake of practicing the Buddha's teaching. And there is a kind of a Santa Claus song, which I don't remember exactly, but to make a long story short it says,

[11:49]

Be good for goodness sake. But usually people don't understand that in the Zen way. They think it means, be good, you know, for goodness sake, you really should do that. But really what it says is, be good for goodness sake, not to get presents from Santa Claus. Do good just for the sake of goodness. Not because you're afraid of losing Santa Claus' favor, not because you're trying to gain Santa Claus' favor, but do it for the sake of goodness, do it for Santa Claus' sake, not yours. Now of course you know that if you do it for goodness sake, Santa Claus will be very happy with you. Even more happy than if you do good to get Santa Claus to give you something.

[12:54]

Does Santa Claus deliver all those toys in order to be famous? Is that why Santa Claus is doing it? To be famous so everyone will think of Santa Claus a good share of the year and worship the North Pole? Or does Santa Claus do it just because Santa Claus loves being generous? I don't know. But I do feel that it is possible to do good things with and without this thread of concern for gain and loss.

[14:00]

And the thread of the view of seeing doing good as a gain and not doing good as a loss. Or doing good as a loss. Like you give someone something and you see that you lost what you gave them. It seems like an innocent way to see the exchange. Innocent in the sense that you didn't mean to be causing trouble, you actually wanted to give a gift. But if you think you lost something when you gave a gift, that view of the interchange may cause disharmony in your heart. So that if they don't say thank you after you lost the gift, if you give your blood, if you give your love, if you give your energy to someone with an idea that you lost something

[15:04]

and they don't say thank you, you may resent it. If you give your blood, if you give your love to someone seeking gain and you don't get the gain, you may resent it. So although it was a good thing to give, because of this thread of concern for gain and loss, of seeing it through the lens of gain and loss, things can conspire to give rise to something really unwholesome right after doing something wholesome because of this subtle imbalance. And when I bring this up, some people say, well, why would you do anything at all if you were going to gain something from it or avoid losing something? It's actually hard for people to see a reason for doing anything

[16:06]

without gain and loss being the orientation. And such an expression, I think, is helpful to show that we usually, or I should say that we're always vulnerable to seeing our life and our action in terms of gain and loss. It doesn't mean we always do, because sometimes we don't. And when we don't, when we don't see an interaction in terms of gain and loss, when we're not seeking to gain something by an interaction, it doesn't cause a big thunderous realization necessarily. It's sometimes just a quiet little thing like, hello, hello. And we sometimes can say hello without trying to get anything out of it. It does happen once in a while. You probably have noticed it. But no big deal.

[17:12]

And in a way it's not a big deal that such a response doesn't cause any trouble, doesn't set a pattern for causing trouble. It's just good for goodness sake. That's all. It's not a big deal. But it is the time and the place of becoming Buddha, which is not a big deal, even though it sounds like a big deal to become Buddha, since it's kind of like, in a sense, the best deal to be a Buddha, to be a harmonizing ingredient in this world of disharmony. You can make that into a big deal, but the Buddha doesn't make it into a big deal. The Buddha just wants to help other people join the Buddha way. Not a big deal. Not a little deal. Not a medium-sized deal.

[18:15]

Just the way of freedom and harmony. That's all. Hype it up, and we lose it. Put it down, and we lose it. Leave it alone, and pay attention to it, and it thrives. Someone said to me, when I talk like this, someone said to me, Can't Buddha manifest? Can't the Buddhas and the great enlightened ancestors manifest, even though we're doing something with a gaining idea, trying to get something? Can't they manifest? I feel that whether I'm acting skillfully or unskillfully,

[19:19]

the Buddhas are always with me. I believe that. I choose to see the world that way. That they're with me no matter whether I'm skillfully or unskillfully. The Buddhas care for unskillful people, and they attend to them. And if skillful behavior is manifesting through my body and mind, the Buddhas are with me then, too. The Buddhas are always with all of us, whether we're skillful or unskillful. And if we're skillful but trying to get something from our skillfulness, the Buddhas are with us then, too. So, in a sense, the Buddhas are manifesting all the time, but if I do things trying to gain something, I distance myself from the Buddhas, I feel. If I tune into the way of being,

[20:21]

where I feel like I'm looking at Buddha, if I feel right now that I'm face-to-face with Buddha, I do not try to get anything. I just feel grateful to be seeing Buddha. I don't say, Well, nice to see Buddha, and now can I have something? Would you please certify the meeting, Lord Buddha, would you stamp my Buddha attendance card? When the founder of Zen Center was alive, a number of people who are still alive and quite a few that are no longer living had a chance to see him. I'm not saying he was a Buddha,

[21:26]

but I think that sometimes when we were looking at him, we kind of felt like we were looking at Buddha. And I think he kind of felt like he was looking at Buddha when he was looking at us. So, sometimes when we felt like we were looking at Buddha and he felt like he was looking at Buddha, at that time, generally speaking, we behaved ourselves quite well. He was quite skillful and we were quite skillful. We didn't meet the teacher and say, Nice to meet you, teacher, and would you please give me something else? Please give me something. I want to get something out of this. Please give me something. No. We're just happy to be with him and see him. And he wasn't trying to get anything out of us either. He was just happy to see us. Just imagine if you had a chance to meet a Buddha, do you think you'd try to get something out of it? Or would you just enjoy the wonderful opportunity and say, Thank you, thank you, thank you,

[22:27]

rather than, Thank you, now let's have some more. And when Suzuki Roshi saw these people meeting him in that way, he thought he had really good disciples, really good students. And they were good when he was looking at them and they were looking at him. We were all good. Pretty good. And then he would, looking at these students, he would often say, Why don't we make this guy or this girl, this young lady or this young man, why don't we make them like director of Tassajara, or director of this or that at Zen Center? Why don't we give them this big responsibility? Because he looked at them and they looked really good. And then he would tell some of the other senior students and they would say, Ano Roshi, did you know that that person is not so skillful when you're not around? And he would say, Well, what do you mean? And they would say, Well, did you know that he did blah blah? And then Suzuki Roshi would say,

[23:28]

Really? And then sometimes he would ask the person, the person would say, I did that. And he said, Well, maybe the person shouldn't be the director. Because when they got about 50 feet away from Suzuki Roshi, they would do these things that they would never do in the presence of the teacher. Can you understand that that might happen? Like, I don't know what people didn't do in his presence, but, you know, you might pick your nose in his presence. But that's not so bad, actually. But people, I don't think, went to Suzuki Roshi and said, Did you know that so-and-so is a total jerk? And I'm not? I don't think people talk to him that way very much. So people look pretty good. Now, if Buddha is with you all the time, and you remember that, and you feel like that,

[24:31]

then you know you want to do good. For goodness sake, and you even know you want to do good without even getting the Buddha's approval or promotion in Buddha's group. You know that that Buddha wouldn't like you to be good being good to get more Buddha's favor, or be more Buddha's favorite, or be in Buddha's special group. Isn't that clear? But if we forget that we're looking at Buddha, and that Buddhas are with us, then we think, Well, this is good, but couldn't I get a little something out of this? Really? Really, no.

[25:38]

Really, you can't get anything out of anything. We don't actually get anything out of life, and we actually don't really lose anything in life. We just live each moment. That's it. And we have wonderful imaginations which have great usefulness, which make it possible to imagine that we're gaining and losing things each moment. It's possible to see every moment as a gain or a loss. We can think that way, and then we can be concerned for that way of living. We can do that, and we often do. Right? Don't you know some people that do that? It's so deep, it's so subtle,

[26:40]

but it is possible to be free of it. Like one Zen trick is, like, for example, right now, most of you are facing, looking at me, okay? Just look at the back wall. Did you try to get anything? Did you try to gain anything when you look back there? Well, some of you are maybe so bad that you did, but... Usually when you just turn around and look at something, you know, at a sound or something, you get promoted. Or afraid of being demoted. You just turn and look. That's kind of how it is. No big deal. Can you look at everything

[27:52]

in the world and everything in your own experience, can you look at it that way, like, what is it? Just look to see what it is. Not trying to get what it is, or even know what it is, but just see what it is. Some of the ancient Buddhist teachers have taught that the way to harmonize body and mind and realize the Buddha way is just to renounce

[28:53]

trying to get something out of life. Live, without trying to skim something off of it, off the living. But right now I feel like the reason why they suggest learning how to live without trying to get something out of living is because we don't get something out of living. Living is enough, more than enough. I take away that it's enough. Live for living's sake. Live for living's sake. Give up trying to get something out of it. Renounce that way. For goodness sake. To help the world. To be a person in the world that can help under these

[29:55]

horrific situations that we are experiencing now, up close and at a distance. Is it possible that this way called the Buddha way which is to renounce trying to get something out of life, but rather just give yourself completely to life, so completely give yourself to each moment that there's not the slightest bit of trying to get something from it. Give yourself so completely you're not worried about what you're going to lose when you give. Including that, even if you live that way, you still might feel like hanging your head down and crying when you see people who are being cruel to each other because they're trying

[30:55]

to get something or avoid losing something. So, learn how to be sorrow and still be relaxed and upright. And also learn how to be feel joy without trying to get anymore or being afraid of losing it. Being ready to lose your joy, being ready for more to come, being ready for overwhelming joy and overwhelming grief and overwhelming sorrow to come in and wash through you and get nothing out of it other than a moment of life. That seems to be

[31:59]

what is recommended by the tradition. For the sake of goodness, for the sake of peace, for the sake of freedom, for the sake of patience with this world and helping beings, let's give up trying to get something out of this life. Let's help heal the wound that's created by trying to being devoted to getting things and avoiding avoiding losing things that we like. silence As I came down

[33:17]

from where I live, from the house I live in up the valley, as I was coming down here I said, Granddaddy, let's go fishing. Yesterday we made a we made a fishing set up. He has a hockey stick and we tied a string to his hockey stick and I took a paper clip and made a hook on the end of the string and we went fishing on a bridge over a dry creek here by the parking lot and during the winter that stream has water in it and I've never seen any fish going through it but it does have water and we went fishing in the dry creek and sometimes he went down in the creek and he was the fish and he wanted to go fishing this morning

[34:18]

but I said, I feel like I need to go to the Zendo now and he said, please, let's go fishing. And I said, maybe your grandma will take you fishing. And so she did take him fishing but she didn't want to go fishing in the dry creek or by the parking lot. She wanted to take him to the reservoir where there's real water and I think that's where they went. So I I didn't gain the opportunity of being what he wanted

[35:18]

and I lost the opportunity of going with him fishing to come down here to talk to you. But you know, I don't really see it that way necessarily. I just see it as it's awfully nice to talk to him and have him say, Granddaddy, can we go fishing? And to feel what that's like when he says that and to feel what it's like when I say, I think I better go to the Zendo. What is that like? Did I gain anything? Did I lose anything? I could see it that way and it makes it more dramatic if I see it that way. Like, you know, I lost my grandson's affection. I lost, you know, the opportunity to be with him but I gained the opportunity to give a talk to get one more talk registered on my

[36:21]

merit badge. I can see it that way. You can see it that way. Like, one more talk you came to a Gringoltsch. One more Dharma lesson you got. A few more of these and who knows what will happen. You can see it that way. I can see it that way. But how about just like moment by moment completely living beyond gain and loss, completely living free of gain and loss. How about it? So that we can be born together and die together fearlessly with no gain of energy or loss of energy. Just every moment total energy. Every moment total energy. Sometimes total little tiny energy,

[37:22]

sometimes total big energy, sometimes total inconceivable energy but total because not trying to jack it up or push it down, just living for goodness sake. I don't I don't try to get my grandson to learn Buddhist doctrine. If he asks about it, I'll be happy to talk to him but I'm not trying to gain I'm not trying to gain a little adorable disciple. I mean, I mean I'm trying to give up trying to gain him as a little disciple. I mean what would be better

[38:24]

if you're going to gain something than a cute little guy with a mustache. Right over there. See him? Wouldn't it be nice to gain that guy? Or that cute little guy to gain a little disciple over there. Or that cute little guy to gain all these nice disciples. Oh, there's another one there. Well, there's another one. Wouldn't it be nice to gain all those disciples and not lose any except the bad ones? Get rid of those. That's not my disciple. No way. All right, that's a preface to tell you that his mother grew up in a house where we often would chant before we ate. We'd chant this chant

[39:27]

the way we do at our houses. We venerate the three treasures and are grateful for this food, the work of many people and the suffering of other forms of life. That's the chant we do. His mother learned that. So, as he grew up, he learned how to join his palms together and he sort of liked to do it without anybody telling him to do it. He just liked when he saw us do it and he liked to do it too. He has a really nice little way of joining his fat little hands. And now he's starting to say the chant, you know. And the way he said it as of a couple of days ago was Refrigerate the three treasures. So, you see, now when they say Refrigerate the three treasures, you don't want him to learn the real way to do it, the regular way. You don't want to lose, like, Refrigerate the three treasures.

[40:28]

And you should hear the way he says ambulance and hospital. It's just amazing. You don't want him to learn it right. You know, you kind of don't want to lose this wonderful, unusual pronunciation. And yesterday, he gave me a birthday present and he said, We venerate the three treasures and are grateful for this food, the work of many people and the sufferings of other forms of life. He said it. I gained the proper pronunciation. I lose the adorable mispronunciation. Gain and loss could be there or not. But actually, Refrigerate the three treasures and venerate the three treasures, they're both life and it's possible to be grateful and not ask for more or less. Pretty simple. That's called being upright. But it's hard. It's hard not to lean into

[41:31]

keeping them as little babies or wanting them to outgrow certain phases. And the same with our own practice and other people's practice. So it's a simple practice, but we have strong predispositions towards gain and loss, towards seeing things that way, towards seeing things and seeking things that way. So it's going to be a difficult transition from this deep habit to the way of harmony and peace. But I think that's, this is one, this is one version of the path for you to look at and consider. The path of ending these concerns for gain and loss and ending the views of gain and loss. Even though the views are out there,

[42:35]

I shouldn't say ending them, but become free of them. Even though they're always floating around in the neighborhood, just like, say hi to them like red-winged blackbirds and frogs in the sky. Just respectfully acknowledge them and relax and let them go. Let's see if that helps at all, us become people who live in this world, see if it promotes peace among us. I don't know. I'm giving it a try, but still, I feel really bad about, really bad about what's going on. I feel responsible for what's going on. I'm having a hard time. Even if I don't see it as gain and loss,

[43:44]

I see it as really horrible that we can't be kind to each other sometimes, and really wonderful that we can be kind to each other sometimes. It's really wonderful that human beings can be so kind to each other. It's really great. And even to see this kindness, free of ideas of gain and loss, and to see the cruelty with free of ideas of gain and loss, so that we can meet the cruelty as though we're meeting Buddha, and meet the cruelty with respect and compassion, while we feel terrible, we still meet it with compassion. It seems like it's possible. It seems like you've seen people do this. It is possible. And we need to do it, don't we? Doesn't the world need this from us?

[44:46]

At the end of our talks, we chant, the Buddha way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. I vow to join it. I vow to enter it. I want to give my life to it, because I love people. And all living things. I want to enter the Buddha way. And I'm willing to learn the Dharma practices, which will facilitate it. Even though they're very deep and difficult to understand sometimes. Anything you'd like to discuss?

[46:24]

Yes? Yes? She said when you're in the place of being with or seeing horror and violence, your inner response is to fight it. How can you begin to stop the violence and surrender and move the energy to a positive way? A place of surrender? A place of surrender and something beneficial?

[47:26]

Well, as I often say, in some sense, you know, the Buddha way is martial arts. And martial arts, I think, is being able to be aware of positive energy and negative energy. Or beneficial manifestations and potentially harmful manifestations and to interact with them in such a way as to protect beings. So if some energy is manifesting in a way that's violent, to learn how to relax with it and move with it in such a way as to protect beings is possible to learn. Sometimes the thing to do is to step aside and let it pass by. But part of it is surrender because you're surrendering to the fact of potentially aggressive...

[48:28]

of aggressive energy and that it has potential for harm. You kind of surrender to the facts and then you can and then you can like perhaps interact with that energy in such a way that nobody gets hurt. And also perhaps in such a way that anyone who wishes to cause harm is startled and awakened from that delusion by the beauty of a skillful response to it. But of course, it takes a lot of training to like not tense up when somebody is being violent near you or some human or other life forms being violent, we often tense up and become afraid and then when we're afraid it's pretty hard to move smoothly and skillfully in relationship to it. but we do have opportunities to, you know, people do sometimes get aggressive with us or violent with us so we do have opportunities to learn

[49:29]

and we can also just generally like we can even go to martial arts dojos and see if we can find some really skillful teachers to teach us how to relax with certain kinds of energies and learn how to dance with them. So the Buddha actually, there's stories of the Buddha Shakyamuni and other disciples of his who were able to interact with violent aggressive energy in a way that no one got hurt and the person who was being violent or wrathful was awakened from that and you know, became awake. A mass murderer actually supposedly was going to attack the Buddha one time and he responded to the person in such a way that the person woke up and became pacified. And Suzuki Roshi

[50:30]

was, you know, only about five feet tall and he had lots of young American disciples who were over six feet tall and who had quite a bit of aggressive energy, you know. But he was able to kind of disarm all these big, strong, powerful male and female disciples. Huh? And small women can do it too. Small women, small... Of course, children often can disarm a violent person. You know, people come charging violently and a little child walks by and sometimes they just snap out of it and say, Oh! You know? But basically, you know, skillful, compassionate response to somebody can sometimes snap them out of a real state of major aggression. It's possible. You have to train. You have to train a lot.

[51:31]

You probably have to like have 2.8 gazillion lessons of meeting the aggressive energy, meeting hostile energy, meeting insulting, challenging situations and noticing your tension and noticing your tension and noticing your tightening and noticing your unskillfulness and seeing how it works over and over until you gradually find a more skillful way to do it. But it takes a lot of lessons. Fortunately, we do have a lot of opportunities. So, you know, if you go through a week and nothing violent ever happens to you, I'm not saying you should go look for violence, but maybe, are you missing something? If nobody aggresses on you at all, you know, maybe you're in your closet. You know? Anyway, people people threaten me quite frequently with aggressive energy

[52:32]

and so I have some opportunities. Most people do. Unless, like I say, you stay in your room with your TV and don't turn it on. But most people get aggressed upon if there's other people around. So there are opportunities to train this way. But again, if you don't have any, maybe you should go to a martial arts dojo where they simulate these kind of attacks for the sake of learning the skill of interacting with aggressive energy in a skillful, protective way. So, you know, I guess maybe we should we should all be training in martial arts. The Buddha was a martial artist, a supreme martial artist. But even the Buddha sometimes couldn't stop attacks on himself. People sometimes attack Buddha

[53:34]

and one guy attacked Buddha and actually hurt him. And that guy was his cousin and an elephant was charging at the Buddha one time, but the Buddha could handle the elephant, actually. And one time an army was charging at a Buddha and the Buddha stopped the army. But another time the army was coming and the Buddha said, I can't stop the army. That time he was beyond his skill. So that time he just didn't go where the army was. So sometimes it's too much, but I think there should be kind of a martial arts element. Like we have a tea house over here, Zen Center, right over there. Nice tea house where we practice tea ceremony. Tea ceremony is a traditional martial arts. You know, the warrior class of Japan used to go into those tea houses, but they had to leave their swords outside. And they had a really small entryway, so it's hard to get

[54:34]

their sword and their body through the door. But sometimes they snuck their sword in and threatened the tea masters. But sometimes the tea masters could get them to surrender their weapons but they were so skillful. But the reason why they could do that because they were relaxed, they didn't get tense up when the warriors started threatening them and the warriors have... Zen priests, Zen monks, tea masters have been threatened by warriors for centuries. And some of them responded by being relaxed and being disarming and waking the warrior up from their violent energies. And some warriors also wake up other warriors from their violence. Some warriors disarm warriors and some warriors protect people from warriors. So it's a...

[55:39]

it's a challenge to learn how to skillfully respond to aggressive energy. And it's easy to talk about it but when it actually comes to it there's somebody who's coming at you with a lot of force like my grandson. When he's coming at... Huh? He's four and a half. He wants to skip five. He's talking about being six now. But anyway, he likes to run at me and jump at me like this. And dig his fingers into me and slug me and bite me. That's what he likes. So I'm practicing martial arts with this little guy. Huh? He is... This little boy is doing little boy stuff. And his mother didn't do that. That's true. But she made a little boy who did do it. Just for you.

[56:39]

Just for me, yeah. It's wonderful. I just... I feel quite challenged by him. So we're trying to work out a way to deal with this aggressive energy. And it's coming along pretty well. So I practice martial arts with this kid a good share of the time. So first he says... So he says, you know... Partly he says let's go fishing and then he also wants to attack me. And it's just a wonderful opportunity to learn how to interact with his aggressive energy. But it's challenging because it's kind of serious actually, because he can... See, if he doesn't learn how to do this then he's going to get in trouble at school. No. You know that getting bit by a human is really dangerous. More dangerous in some ways than getting bit by a dog because we have lots of different... I think I heard we have 80 kinds of bacteria in our mouth.

[57:39]

And... So... And we... You know, we're used to our bacteria but if we bite somebody and our bacteria gets into the blood it can be really... You know, it's really dangerous. So biting people is really dangerous. So please don't bite people. I know it's fun. I like to do it. But... Watch out because it's dangerous. Any other questions? Well, you can do it if they say you can do it and even then don't break the skin. But I know most people that I've talked to don't want me to bite them. Any other things you want to discuss? Yes. Yes.

[58:49]

Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, in a sense this gain and loss thing kind of arises from the view of self and other. Like, you know, gain here or loss here. Here being separate from there. So this sense of separation between yourself and others or the sense of you being a self all by yourself independent of other beings that's sort of the basic view in which gain and loss is based on. So gain and loss is a way to access that misconception of independent existence and become free of it. You recognize

[60:03]

the appearance of the self and even though you recognize it you can still it still appears. The appearance of something existing by itself even though you recognize it the appearance may continue. The thing to do is to learn that the appearance is just an appearance it's not real and stop believing it. And getting over concern for gain and loss is a meditation practice that will help us get over the believing that we're independent of other beings. Believing that appearance. Because it does look like that. But it's just an appearance it's not reality. Can the ego be what? The ego is the appearance

[61:03]

the appearance or the image of independent existence the mind creates that and when it creates it it does that's the way the mind grasps the person. So you can look at yourself as an independent person and that way of looking at yourself you do see yourself that way so your mind does grasp that way of seeing yourself. So you can imagine a way you are that you're not and you can grasp that way that you are and believe that that's the way you are. And then of course you can be frightened of other people and angry at other people and want to beat other people and stuff like that because you feel separate from them. So we can we do seem to be able to get in trouble in this world because we believe false appearances. Yes? I have a question I'm aware of

[62:05]

not surrendering in the context of practices in life and lately I've been working on choice in the context of surrendering and I find those two sometimes paradoxical it's kind of a long term practice You find you find surrender and choice paradoxical? Yeah. Well yeah I think that that might look paradoxical because there may be the assumption that choice comes from you being in control of your choosing equipment like you know again that there's some sense of a of a controlling agent

[63:05]

that can make decisions on its own so that's another appearance that you can make things happen on your own that's the way things look and surrendering that perspective and you might think well how will any decisions happen because I'm used to thinking of it in this other way of being an independent operator using decision making facilities of the mind so if I surrendered that perspective how would how would decisions be made and I guess I would just suggest that you set up an environment where you could experiment with surrendering that perspective of you making decisions by your own power and watching to see if activity could still arise which someone might say was decisions like just now you went hmm did you notice that? but did you decide to do that? you could say yes

[64:08]

or you could say well I hardly noticed it just sort of arose now you're sort of lifting your eyebrows I say you're lifting your eyebrows but actually your eyebrows are raising and now your head's nodding but are you sitting there in control of these activities? now you're smiling more are you controlling that? and now you're moving your thumbs and shaking your head what? yeah, lots of stuff going on are you deciding to do all this? so you could say yeah, I'm deciding to do each one of these things but you don't have to look at it that way and actually you're kind of you know kind of relaxed and responding to me you're now tensing up like I'm not going to respond to him until I decide to and there you are smiling again you know what? yeah, right and the heat maybe comes from the release of energy around a different way and a feeling that you're being a different way with people so anyway you can it's possible to shift to a mode of being where there's tremendous activity

[65:08]

but no sense of you being in control of it so I would say the Buddha the Buddha does not feel like she's in control of her actions she sees that her actions arise by the arrival of myriad conditions she sees all these conditions arising and then this great activity she doesn't feel like she's in charge of it but most people have not yet seen that so they think they're somewhat in control of something like their own decisions for example and people come and talk to me and they're one of the things people anguish about the most is making decisions because they think that they're supposed to make their own decisions rather than conditions come together and decisions arise which I think is actually the truth is that decisions do appear in your life but you don't make them by your own power for example you can't decide to like somebody

[66:09]

without the person being there you know so everything that happens happens not by its own power and so decisions don't happen by the power of decisions or by the power of the decision maker everything is much more interdependent than that so surrendering is kind of surrendering to what's happening and then seeing maybe that the appearance of decisions can be seen in a myriad different ways and so it's nice to be in an environment where you can experiment letting new perspectives on the decision making process giving them some some opportunity that's why we have practice centers where we can like for example have a program of activities that you can sign up for and then you can say I don't have to decide anything else for the rest of the time really I'll just when the bell rings

[67:11]

every time the bell rings I'll just go to the event and then you notice that you kind of want to get back into the decision making process again say I well yeah I said I was just going to go when the bell rang but now I want to like get in there to calculate whether or not I'm going to gain anything by going to this and you notice that that's painful and tiring and then you notice that when the bell rings and you just go all you know it's like you feel free and start to feel a lot of happiness not having to be in charge of what you're going to do but you have to try it for a while to see and we have a program like that here at Green Gulch for you to try if you want to you can go on

[68:12]

so please go on go on and practice this for 40 years and see how it goes yes and yes and yes yes yes here and you feel frustrated about what? that some people

[69:12]

don't see things like you do? is that what you mean? well how about that way? you see somebody who like looks at some situation where you see for example cruelty and they don't seem to see it and you feel frustrated that they don't even see the cruelty it seems reasonable you'd like them to you feel bad you'd like them to like see that somebody from your view you think somebody is getting harmed and you'd like them to see that so you feel frustrated if they don't right? so then what do we do with people who don't see what we think is important to see? so what am I going to say? sit

[70:15]

well if you're sitting sit with it if you're standing stand with it if you're walking walk with it and then if you're like tensing up and trying to get this person to be another way from what they are thinking trying to gain a change in them then notice that that might not be so helpful it's possible that if you're with somebody who again somebody said would you please give a whole talk about your grandson so here's my grandson right? he sometimes doesn't see some things that I do see like he kind of or he doesn't listen to things which I'd like him to listen to and that's you know kind of seems to be a challenge there now he he doesn't see that such a thing such and such is going to be harmful to me or somebody else

[71:18]

and I do and I'd like him to see that but if I'm not careful if I get into gain and loss around that I'm going to be less effective being with him I'm not I'm not just so much less effective of getting him to see the way I see put that aside for the moment I'm just going to be less effective being with him because I'm basically going to be you know showing him a bad way of living namely that I'm trying to gain something in my interactions with him even if he agrees with me even if I see something and he sees it too and I have this gaining idea about or you know not wanting him to lose the vision sharing a vision with me I'm setting I'm teaching him something which is really basically the problem

[72:18]

so differences of view are not the main problem it's how do we and feeling the frustration of differences of view is not the main problem the problem is how to be with people who have different views and with whom we feel frustration that they have different views how to be with that in such a way that both sides wake up that I become free of my view and together with them becoming free of their view that's when we're going to find peace but for me to get those people who don't see cruelty where I see it to come over and see what I see I don't think that's the Buddha way it's more like the Buddha way for me to go over to see it the way they see it you know like oh I can see that's not cruelty I get it that's not cruelty wow fantastic and I see through your eyes how it's not cruelty but we don't want it when you see cruelty you don't want to shift over to look at it

[73:19]

in a way that some other people see it where they don't see cruelty you don't want to do that right you don't want to see cruelty through somebody's eyes that doesn't see cruelty right wouldn't that be bad well I'm saying no I'm saying actually to be able to see through the other person's eyes will wake them up from the way they see and you just got woken up from the way you saw because you could look through their eyes in other words you woke from the idea that you're seeing the cruelty is really true and them seeing not the true cruelty is really false and if you see cruelty it seems to me that it would be even more important when you see cruelty to be able to see through the person's eyes who doesn't see the cruelty in order to

[74:20]

save beings from the cruelty now if you want to promote cruelty the opposite would be true if you want to promote cruelty and you see cruelty then do not agree with the people who don't see cruelty do not look through their eyes and see them as wrong and that will promote cruelty because they will be happy to continue to do what they're doing or what they you know not seeing cruelty because the people who see cruelty don't respect them so why would they consider looking at things the way the people who don't respect them see things but if you saw cruelty and could put aside your view and look through their eyes they would feel actually really respected and in that respect they would say oh you see it's not cruelty now you say yeah I do they say wow

[75:21]

you say you want to come over to my side and look through my eyes now and they say yeah and they go wow amazing amazing I didn't see how cruel it was to put worms on hooks when you go fishing and now I see now I see and it's because you could take my point of view that it didn't hurt the worms that I dared to look and see that it does hurt the worms and now we're and now we're not fighting each other and we raise the banner of happy worms

[76:22]

yes yes yeah yeah yeah right it's hard to put out the sense of goodness without becoming self-righteous that's one of the advantages of being a gangster is you you're not so quite prone to to self-righteousness you're trying to be mean to people and push people around so you don't think yeah I'm really doing this for their good sure sure I'm not doing this that's to bash their heads in yeah I'm not I'm not self-righteous I'm just a greedy

[77:32]

so and so and I'm like you know I'm just taking over here that's all but if you try to help the gangsters then you can feel somewhat self-righteous I saw a Hummer limo I saw a Hummer stretch limo it wasn't just a Hummer it was a long Hummer can you believe that? I saw that now how do I look at that and be astounded and repulsed without being self-righteous how can I be like say ooh that's really you know how can I really like take the point of view that that's really a good idea somebody probably thinks well look man I gotta make a living and I just got this great idea of making a a limo Hummer and my family needs you know to get supported so I got this idea to support my family and take care of my people you know just you know I got real problems here I gotta be innovative

[78:35]

and think of ways to you know make money cause that's the way the world is and try to see things from that point of view but it's a real challenge it's a real it's like an affront it's like an attack to see a a Hummer in a stretch limo it's really hard question is do you think you're better than somebody we have a bodhisattva precept is don't think you're better than other people we don't say in the Buddha way think you're better than other people praise yourself put yourself above we don't teach that we say we also don't say put yourself below other people but just for an exercise you might try that put yourself below people

[79:37]

just to sort of see how it feels but if you're already below them maybe you should come up to be equal and see if you can stop there without going above but anyway there isn't a precept which says do not put other people above you there's a precept which says don't slander and you shouldn't slander yourself either you shouldn't be smirk or disrespect yourself but I think it is kind of okay to praise self at your expense I mean praise others at your expense I think that is okay it's actually the best form of humor yes is your name Kent? the precept of doing all good precept of doing all good

[80:40]

yes, it's a big one feels like it comes from a place it's a recommendation but it's also an observation of the way that the universe sort of operates that's the original foundation of human society right it's plugged into the way things really are by doing all good and the precept before that is the precept of embracing basically the forms and ceremonies of Zen practice so the first precept of embracing forms and ceremonies means embrace doing good for goodness sake and then do good after you've learned to do good just to do good after you've learned to do good without trying to get anything from it then start doing good but first of all purify your goodness from any sense of gain by practicing the forms so like practice coming to meditation every day on time

[81:41]

and leaving on time just for the sake of coming on time and leaving on time not for your you know gain just because it's a good thing so train yourself that way and then you're going to be able to do actual good unhindered by sense of gain and loss and then you're going to be able to really help people that's the idea those three precepts the idea the idea of gain and loss yes the idea of gain and loss the notion of doing good for goodness sake they seem to me to be deeply from a foundational core they seem to be from a similar core no they're contradictory the idea of gain and loss and doing good are antithetical right because the idea of the idea of gain and loss

[82:45]

is a false it's just an idea right it's based on the idea of separation yes so of good of gain and loss right so that's antithetical to doing good but people mix them together and mixing them is continuous to be antithetical to doing good so somehow we have to do good without confusing good with our ideas of gain and loss otherwise our ideas of gain and loss getting confused with good undermine the realization of good doesn't completely destroy it there still can be some good there is still some good in the world even though we have all these people running around with ideas of gain and loss there's still some good it's just that it's not it's being hindered greatly by people believing in gain and the idea of gain and loss as something more than an idea but there really isn't gain and loss without the idea of gain and loss it doesn't say

[83:46]

practice gain and loss it says practice good actually the teaching is give up give up concern and view of gain and loss and then you can really do good but gain and loss doesn't if one has the experience of being separated from everything it will express itself as gain and loss yes if one doesn't have the experience of separation basically that same feeling the energy expresses itself of good for good and safe that's right that's right so the idea of gain and loss can still arise but when you understand yourself you see it always as an illusion and then you don't get caught by it and that's kind of the point of the whole practice is not being caught by gain and loss not being caught by the

[84:48]

idea of gain and loss there's really no gain and loss to be caught by but we get caught by the idea of gain and loss and it's an idea of something that doesn't actually exist except in this kind of interdependent way which is not really gain and loss I see your hand but somebody else was ahead of you yes how would I explain no separation well just just that one of the basic things that the Buddha taught was that everything you, me trees zen centers mountains and rivers everything has this character of being other dependent nothing makes itself happen pardon yes

[86:16]

yes there you go if I have a dollar and I give it to you I could see that I could see or you or you take it even without asking me I could see that I lost a dollar ok but if I see that I'm not something that produces myself and actually I'm produced by things other than myself then when the dollar goes from my hand to your hand I don't see it that I lost something because I'm not something other than the dollar going to you you having the dollar makes me as much as me having the dollar me having the dollar makes me when I have it you having the dollar makes me but if I think I make myself and I'm not made by you and the dollar then I think me having the dollar is a gain me losing the dollar could be a loss but when I see that I'm not something in addition to the dollar then wherever the dollar is I'm still here it still gives me life

[87:19]

and whether you have it or not if you don't have it that gives me life if you do have it it gives me life so just do that just like have it just get a dollar some place and then give it to somebody and see if you can see that the giving gives you life and then ask them to give it back to you and see that if they give it back to you that gives you life and if they say no that gives you life and if they say here's two dollars that gives you life and if they say now give me five and you give them five that gives them life and then you do a high five and that gives you life everything that happens gives you life and everything that happens not only gives you life But if you see that, then everything that happens to you wakes you up from the dream that not everything is you, or that you're something separate from the rest of the world. There's the universe, our usual dream is there's a universe plus something.

[88:25]

There's a universe and something, and what might that thing be? And it's sort of a coincidence that for each person it turns out to be them. That's the one, there's everything else plus that one additional thing which happens to be me. This is a strange way we look at our life, kind of funny, and that's view, that's where gain and loss comes from. This is something that takes quite a bit of training to get over, to stop believing that it really is true that there's a universe plus me. That all these people, there's all these people, and on top of everything, all the people, on top of that, besides that, there's me.

[89:33]

Isn't that obvious, that that's true? But you don't think that there's a whole universe plus me. You think I'm part of the universe, and then you're in addition to that. We don't think there's a whole universe plus her. No, we think she's part of the universe, right? Kind of an inconsistency there. And it's like, where is the inconsistency located? It's right around here. It's not like there's a whole universe and over there. It's like there's a whole universe and right here. There's this side and the big other side. Rather than there's just the big other side, and I'm included. I'm included in the universe, rather than in addition to it. Or there's the whole universe, and isn't there something missing when you have a whole universe and then there isn't there something?

[90:37]

Didn't we forget to mention something? And then, oh yeah, there's the whole universe and then I'm there too. And now here's the whole universe again, and that's me. And here's the whole universe, and that's what I am. And it includes all my past actions and all my responsibilities. Anything else you wanted to bring up? Oh yes, I think you were next. I wanted to ask, the idea of gain and loss, my own mind seems to be measuring. Yeah, right. Yes, that's where the gain and loss comes from, is your mind. And my mind, our minds, we have minds that are constantly, we have these measuring equipment that are turned on, they're turned on, and they stay on,

[91:38]

basically, let's just say, indefinitely. And even if they get turned off in certain states of whatever, there are times when they're turned off, in a sense. You can hardly notice it, like somebody says, Hey, you turn around. You don't seem to be calculating how well your head's turning, or whether it's good to turn. Sometimes there's activity without the gain and loss machinery obviously working, but actually they're working then too, it's just you don't notice it. So this gain and loss thing comes from calculations of the mind. Otherwise, obviously, you know, and other people could be calculating quite differently than you are for the same action, right? So it's a created, mentally constructed phenomenon, and without the mental construction it has no existence. And one of the ways to disarm this machine,

[92:41]

Yes. is to, and with the judgment and all that. Judgment's basically the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's basically it. Yeah. You measured, your mind measured the muffins. Yeah. And also then you measured that it was terrible. You calculated that it was inevitable, terrible, and large. We have a fantastic evaluation system here, and our nervous system is very, as you know, very amazingly complex and fast. You can make... The tool of disarmament is consciousness and awareness.

[93:43]

And then to learn...

[93:45]

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