Last week, and oftentimes at the end of these retreats, I ask people to write a poem. And the form of poem I usually recommend is haiku, which is quite simple and short, only 17 syllables. the haiku form uses natural images of like phenomenal things, not abstract, not metaphysical things. Like, you know, things, phenomenal things like eyes and colors and noses and smells and feet and mountains and water and dogs, things like that. Rather than eternity or annihilation or something like that, or an independent self.

[01:04]

And also if it could be connected to something that happens that you experienced, not a general phenomenal experience, but something you actually experienced. And if it could be related to the middle way, that would be nice. So if you could do that, 17 syllables, and maybe tomorrow morning you could read your poem to the group. When this dog named Rozzy lies on her side, the back leg that's on the ground, the foot's up in the air because your thighs are so big.

[02:45]

Both feet are up in the air. It's because of her flexibility. It's also because she has a huge, huge piece of flesh here. You see the piece of flesh there? So when she lies on it, it lifts the foot up. I feel that entering the Middle Way also involves, or might say that the curriculum of the Middle Way is anxiety. So entering the middle way has something to do with entering into the school of anxiety. So how can a person be enthusiastic about entering such a school?

[04:01]

That's how I feel. Does that make sense to you? Anybody have another view on the matter that they'd like to bring up? What do you mean by anxiety? I guess I mean a sense of global threat. Personal? Global personal? Oh, definitely personal. Personal threat. Do you feel that? Is that what causes you to go into or to search for or to become part of the middle way, is the anxiety? Or once you're there, that's when you feel anxious? I think anxiety is part of the... The pain of anxiety is part of the conditions for wishing to enter the middle way, if one ever would wish. It's a motivating factor, too. It's a motivating factor. But there's other motivating factors too.

[05:16]

For example, compassion. But the compassion arises also dependent on pain. But there's more kinds of pain than anxiety. You could feel compassion about a wide variety of pains. But I guess I'm saying that the one that's kind of like the main course of the curriculum of the middle way is anxiety. For example, fear is kind of, I feel, is a derivative of anxiety. So the pain of fear could also be a motivation for you to for you to wish to study the middle way, if you heard the middle way would set you free of fear and set others free. Anger, the pain of being an angry person, or the pain of being a greedy person, or feeling greed and anger, those could also be painful.

[06:19]

Feeling confusion could also be painful. being various kinds of sicknesses, physical sicknesses and other varieties of mental illness besides greed, hate and delusion. Those pains could all be motivations for entering the middle way. But you could have all of those or some of those or none of them and just have anxiety. But if you have all of those you still have anxiety. It's just that if you have all of those you might not even notice anxiety. But if they all dropped away, you'd still have anxiety until you understand the middle way. Anxiety is a source, I think, of them. For example, I think we'd rather be afraid, most people would rather be afraid of something than globally threatened. Most people would rather be found guilty of something rather than being potentially guilty of everything.

[07:29]

Kafka's story. Yeah. And most people would rather be angry than afraid. Although they'd rather be afraid than anxious, they'd rather be angry than afraid. I didn't say most people, many people. Or... Or greedy, then rather be greedy. Or confused, then just flat out afraid. And so on. Or be busy rather than afraid. Or busy rather than anxious. Or powerful rather than anxious. Anything, again, we get into all these kinds of distractions from basic anxiety. But I'm saying, you know, this is the core curriculum. All the things that are arising in your life are the curriculum, but the core curriculum, you should know before, you know, maybe it's good to know beforehand that this is the curriculum.

[08:30]

Are you up for it? Are you up for it? Can you be enthusiastic about such a study? Yes? Do you also see it as cultivating anxiety? No, not looking for it and not cultivating it, but cultivating an openness which will allow you to become aware of it. I wouldn't cultivate it. I think, again, cultivating it is self-mortification. Cultivating anxiety is self-mortification. But that's what some people do. Actually, they do something to bring it up. But that's not so bad. It's just a little bit of sidetrack. All these extremes are not so terrible. They're just sort of terrible. So to go up and stand on the edge of the cliff and lean over the edge is not really anxiety. It's more like deciding to be afraid of that rather than all the things you're afraid of as you go up to the cliff.

[09:33]

So anxiety is that... basically everything's possible except you and you feel threatened by everything that's not you so it's not that you cultivate that because any way that you'd cultivate it would be partial and you'd be trying to control it if you tried to cultivate it so it's more a matter of opening to it how do you open to it? have any idea how you open to it? don't turn away You don't turn away. Don't use things to turn away. You sit still, wherever you are. You sit on the seat of enlightenment and you don't move. And anxiety comes to visit. You know, you sit there and say, well, it doesn't seem to be coming, so...

[10:39]

Okay, so, you know, it's not coming, so I might as well move, huh? It doesn't come on your schedule. That's part of the anxiety. You don't know when it's going to manifest or where. Or if you're missing it right now. Yes? Positive motivators? Positive motivators? Yes. Like what? Right. Right. That's right. So seeing one who's practicing the middle way, who's supposedly practicing the middle way, who seems to be, you know, kind and happy, and dignified.

[11:48]

You'd say, what school are you in? I'm in the middle way school. For me, that's what attracted me to Buddhism was the behavior of practitioners. I saw the practitioner and I said, I want to be like that person. So that's one of the ways that you, that the arising of the wish to enter occurs is by either seeing practitioners or reading about practitioners or hearing about practitioners and you want to practice what they're practicing. You say, that's good, I want to be like that. Yeah. You can also, another motivation for entering the way would be hearing reasons for it, the reasonableness of it. And also another would be hearing the reasons for it and the reasons against not doing it, or the reasons for how not doing it is harmful to health. So by reason, or by reading scriptures about how to practice it and thinking that that sounds like a good thing to do,

[12:56]

Okay. Any other points about any, do you have any problems with this? Anything that's happened so far? Okay. Well, another thing I thought I might mention is that the Buddha, you know, although the Buddha recommended the middle way, which involves not getting involved in either of these extremes, he did say, you know, that things arise or exist and also things cease, things in the world arise and cease. And I've heard that generally speaking when he, at least he's said to have used the verbs for that though, like the verb for exist and the verb for cease or desist rather than the abstract noun. existence and nonexistence.

[14:19]

And, for example, the word for, I'm not sure, but the word for impermanence, the word for impermanent is anicca. But I think the word for impermanence is anicchata. Like the word for empty is shunya, and the word for emptiness is shunyata. And the word for exist, there's different words for exist, but one word for exist is sat, and or asti, and you can say astita. Or in Pali, I think, ati, and ati is like exist, and atita is existence.

[15:29]

So these positions of eternalism and annihilationism are like, they use then the abstract noun, which is more solid. when we observe existence, when we observe existing, then we have some, there's some inclination, some tendency to feel that behind the existing or exists is existence. And when we see something ceasing, something ceases, There's an inclination in the world to see annihilation behind the ceasing. This is an inclination, a kind of imbalance that we have when we see birth and death, is to put something substantial and metaphysical behind it.

[16:35]

It's kind of like... I just think it's kind of like we want to use all we've got for everything that happens. We want to overdo it, in a way. So when we see something happening, we don't just see it happening, we have an abstract principle for it right behind it, because we can do that. So why not? Well, the problem is that you're off balance. So in that off-balanceness or overdoing it, you and I are not in the proper way to see the causal nature of this arising or the causal nature of this ceasing. And that's what we need to see because it's in the causal nature of things that we see how they come to be, that we will let go of these extreme views, that we'll let go of these extreme views and be balanced.

[17:53]

But also, if we're balanced in our study, we'll see the causal nature and let go of the extreme views. But once the extreme views are let go of, I don't know. you start to change your, your dispositions start to change, you know, you start to like feel more and more comfortable to see things without putting this extra stuff on top. Like you see a face, you know, without putting reality on top of it. You see something happen without putting eternalism on top of it. Or first of all, existence on top of it, which implies eternalism. Or non-existence on top of it, which implies annihilationism. Yes? I don't see how you don't... How you don't put nihilism on it.

[19:14]

You know, that. That is just gone. Say it again. Well, you know, like, that it's just gone. You know, that moment is just gone, or that person is gone, or it's gone. I mean, it is. It is gone. Yes, it is gone. Uh-huh. So you don't see how you don't do that. Yeah. Well, in a way, you know, thank you. So, you know, it's almost like you're saying, yes, we do do what I say we just do. In other words, you don't just see something disappearing or ceasing to be. Are you saying how can you not make that into like a reality that it went away? Right. Well, the adding of the reality is the overdoing it, rather than just say the appearance has ceased, which the Buddha definitely recognizes.

[20:17]

This is like the empirical experience of impermanence. We overdo it. We say this thing has actually really stopped being there. But that's related to that we thought it really was there before. So then you can say, well, how could you help when something arises, not put onto it that it really was there? And that's a good question. That's what we're trying to learn, is how when something appears, can you like say, this is appearing, this is arising. Now, what we usually do is when something appears, we lean into it or lean away from it. We don't just like say, oh, an ice cream cone appeared. Oh, a monster. Oh, pain. Oh, suffering. This suffering which is susceptible to arising has arisen. We don't just do that. We lean usually. We react. And that's because we had this really fast reaction before we even had an emotional reaction.

[21:25]

We had this fast reaction called overlaying this appearance with reality. We say it exists, you know, this is existence. And in other words, this is eternal. This really exists. We do that like that. Almost we do it, we're ready to do it even before it happens. We're like waiting for the next thing to put inherent existence on. This is our inclination. We're already leaning for the next, you know, ball to be, you know, we're like we're playing tennis. And our thing is like, you know... what's the next inherently existing thing to deal with? So when something appears by various causes and conditions, things do appear by various causes and conditions, and one of the main causes is ignorance. But anyway, things appear, and they appear in a certain way, there's a certain way they happen, and we overlay it with this philosophical position called, it exists.

[22:28]

or existence, which implies eternalism. And you say, how can we not do that? Well, one of the first ways that you practice not doing it is you face the anxiety of doing it because that brings you very close to what you're up to because this disturbs you to do that. It's somewhat disturbing to overdo your experience by bringing this big philosophy thing on top of it. So there's some disturbance there because this also flashes back over here. Whatever is out there really is related to whatever is in here is really here. And there's anxiety about this and that. Especially that's very closely related to this. So being honest about, as you just were, this strong tendency to overlay a simple phenomenal appearance with existence dash eternalism or to overlay a simple phenomenal empirical disappearance with non-existence.

[23:45]

Sounds heavier, doesn't it? The non on top of it. Anyway, non-existence, annihilation. We do that. Our mind can do that. That extra weight So first thing to do is admit you're into that and be aware of what that feels like. Next thing is try to sit upright, even while you're doing this, and face this anxiety, which again, in order to do that, you have to practice compassion, loving kindness, and all that stuff so you can sit upright in the middle of this. You've already leaned. and gotten in trouble for it, so now sit upright in that situation. You've already put yourself in whatever, you don't want to call it, you know, prison. You're already there, so now sit upright in that situation. If you now can sit upright there, then you can start to see how this thing comes to be.

[24:51]

When you see how it comes to be, when you see how this thing comes to be deceased, how this thing ceases, you will not any longer grasp, this is what Scott had a problem with, you'll no longer grasp the extreme of eternalism. You might feel like, yeah, but my problem is annihilationism. What am I going to do about that? Well, don't worry, because the next thing that happens, if you see how it happens, you won't grasp the extreme of annihilationism. So the way you're actually going to be able to not do this very strong habit is to see how things come to be. That's the key. When you see how they happen, you see that that contradicts these heavy metaphysical positions. contradicts them, it shows that they're wrong. And the more you get to see that what you think is wrong, you take one step closer to like saying, hey, not only do I not need this and is it a problem, but it's wrong.

[25:54]

But we hold on to this because we think it's right, even though it's painful. We need some contradictory information. And also, when you see the contradictory information, this other thing happens. Namely, you're free of doubt, perplexity, and confusion when you see how things happen. So not only do you not grab these things and get in trouble, but you also, your basic confusion and doubt about how things are and who you are, also you don't have anymore. That's a little nice bonus. But anyway, you want to know how are you not going to do it. You have to see, you have to understand how things come to be. That's the job. But the curriculum... is anxiety. You have to sit upright in your anxiety so you can see how your anxiety comes to be. And then you have to see not only how your anxiety comes to be, but how everything comes to be, how it comes to be that this arises, so, and this ceases.

[26:55]

But anyway, the anxiety that's susceptible to arising is arising. That's it. The anxiety which is susceptible to ceasing is ceasing. That's it. then you don't any longer grasp as it says, this is my permanent self. Right? Isn't that what it says? The anxiety that is subject to arising arises. The suffering that is subject to arising arises. The anxiety that is subject to ceasing ceases. Such a person does not doubt, is not perplexed. But that means you're right there with just what's given. You're sitting here, what's given? This, this, this. You're just right there with what's given. You're not kind of like, I think I have something more interesting to look at than this. Like, for example, some other topic, so you distract yourself from it, or at least bring a big metaphysical theory in and put it on top.

[27:55]

You don't have to just sit here and look at what's happening. You can do something with it. You're a powerful imaginer. You're from the species that can do this really well. You don't have to just sit here and suffer and watch it. You don't have to sit here and be patient and compassionate and upright. You can fight back with your mind. Okay? But that's, anyway, when you see how things come to be, as it says here, you will no longer be perplexed you will no longer be anxious and you will no longer adhere to these positions. Although you won't lose your ability, don't worry, you won't lose your ability to be a metaphysician and to put metaphysical things on top of phenomenal things. You won't lose your ability. You'll always be able to do it if you need to. So, you know, Buddha can go to like, you know, what do you call it, a tournament, a metaphysics tournament and play metaphysics with people.

[28:59]

But just temporarily you'll give it up and you'll feel better. But in order to give it up, you've got to have another way of seeing things. You can't go like from your habit to nothing. And that's what some people do is they start to make the transition from their habit to this other way of thinking. They recoil in fear because they think, well, what will I have? Well, you'll have a new way. But if you think about it beforehand, you can't imagine what it's going to be like. So it seems like nothing. You know, if you imagine like not tampering with everything. In other words, giving up your tampering, you say, well, then I won't know what to do. Well, yeah, you won't know what to do, but you'll have this new way called not knowing what to do, called not tampering. It's a good way. It's a way. It's not nothing. It's the middle way. Does that make sense so far? Does that make sense, Salah? I am not kidding, and I would like, it would be possible to put this example with, you know, for example, I have a brother.

[30:09]

Yes. So, suddenly, he gets killed in an accident. Yes. So, I don't understand how he doesn't cease to exist. To me, his karma will exist forever. All his actions... will have an effect. Excuse me. You said you don't understand how he doesn't cease to exist? Right. Well, the appearance of your brother is ceased, right? The Buddha says the empirical experience of your brother ceases. That does happen. That's an appearance. It's called the ceasing of your brother. That does happen. But if you say that there is non-existence of your brother, that's overdoing it. That's all we're saying.

[31:10]

And most people do that. They don't just watch their brother cease to exist. They don't just see the appearance of their brother go away and just sit upright and watch that. They usually lean into it. or lean away from it, or start arguing with it, or look for somebody to blame. They don't just sit upright and watch this phenomenal thing called the person I love has now ceased to be. They don't just watch it. They lean into it. I'm not saying... They lean into it. You make too much of it. You say, this is actually... He actually doesn't exist. You make it into an annihilation. You obliterate it. But that's based on thinking... That before you were also doing this with your brother when he appeared, you maybe were leaning into that too. Saying he not only is appearing to exist, he really exists. We have that tendency. That's our inclination. That's our disposition. That's our determination. This is what we usually do with things.

[32:13]

Sometimes, you know, we feel okay about this one. But when we do it with the death of... If we like the person and we lean into them existing and making their existing into existence, into eternalism, maybe we feel fine. Now I eternally have my loving, my dear brother. Maybe you like that. You think you like that, maybe. But then when he dies, the same tendency makes you feel terrible. Plus, when you do it back on yourself... It screws you up because you don't know how to behave morally. But anyway, in your case, you watch your brother die. You see how that happens, but you don't make too much out of it. You don't make it into an annihilation. You make it to the, I don't have this brother, this phenomenon called my brother. This thing I loved so much, I don't have anymore. That's enough. You can work with that.

[33:15]

That's plenty to work with. Whatever kinds of attachments you have, you can work with. Whatever kind of anxiety may arise when this happens, you can work with. That's all fine. And you can work with it better if you don't make too much of it by leaning into it. Okay? Carolyn and then Lon. Could you give us a few examples of how we look at the causal nature of things arising or ceasing? It's the term causal nature that's giving you trouble because... The dependent nature? The dependent nature? The dependent nature. The other dependent nature? That would help already. Okay. Use that then. I just sometimes use different words and they don't go over very well sometimes, but... Could you give us an example of... This was ceasing. An example of a dependent nature of something? The right way to look onto the dependent nature of something arising. I say not a person because it's something else. Okay, well, cup.

[34:15]

Hi, cup. Are you getting tired of being used as an example? Well, one of the main things you do, for me, in my experience working with people and myself, one of the main ways you look into the causal nature of things is, now don't look for the causal nature of things. Because then you're going to come up with this kind of like, what do you call it, concept of the causal nature. The causal nature is something that is not your idea of the causal nature. Causal nature... or the other dependent quality of something, the other dependent quality of things you're looking at, come to you through revelation. They don't come to you from trying to go get it. So here's a cup. I'm a glass. It has a dependent nature. If I start looking for the dependent nature, I think it's okay for starters, but it's a kind of an approach kind of thing. It's a kind of leaning into, I want to get the causal nature.

[35:19]

You follow that? So it's definitely not like scientific or material nature that we're talking about here. It's not scientific or material nature? Is that true? Well, I don't know. What's scientific nature? I guess it's my semantic problem with the word causal. Say other dependent. You like that better? Yes. Or even how about interdependent? Like that one? Or interconnected? Same thing. Do you want to know about that? Or do you feel relieved now and just drop it? So how do you see the interdependent nature of something? How do you see the other dependent nature of something? How do you see how something comes to be? Because have you heard how good that is to see how something comes to be? That's like right wisdom when you see how things come to be. Like that.

[36:35]

You see how that happened? That's how you did. Do you see how you did it? Huh? Huh? You didn't watch yourself watching, but now that I'm asking you about it, did you have some particular way of watching me do that? No, not really. You know, there was, you know, not too much. You didn't make that too much into an... You know, it was kind of light, kind of light the way you did it, wasn't it? Kind of just sat there and watched it. Well, that's the way to watch, like, your death and your birth. That's the kind of way to watch when somebody, you know, steals your most precious thing. Same way to watch that. Just like you watch that. That's how to meditate. You had no way of doing that. But now, you didn't know you were meditating either, did you, at that time? So nobody could conclude you that this was a meditation moment.

[37:37]

So you just sat there and watched me drink the glass. You thought, when's he going to tell me how to do this? He's drinking water. I suppose when he puts it down, he's going to tell me how to meditate. While you were watching me, you were doing it the right way. When you wanted to know, that was a little bit of a problem. But it's okay. It's hard to learn how to do something without having a little bit of a bias towards learning how to do it. But this particular thing, what you're trying to learn how to do is not have a bias towards learning how to do it even. Because if you have a preference for learning how to do this kind of meditation, which reveals the interdependent nature of things, it's antithetical to the thing you're trying to learn. So the instructor has to kind of get the instruction in there before you know the instruction has started. And then you sit there and watch and you see how to do it. Yeah, right.

[38:39]

So you get that little... That's the key thing when that light goes on. So you do not try to see this very precious thing called the dependent co-arising of a dependently co-arisen thing. You don't look for that. You don't try to see how it happens. But in fact, you do see how it happens because you see it happen. So when it happens, how it happens is right there. But if you would rather have something else going on, you won't be able to see it. If you would like this to continue to go on, you won't see it. If you don't mind it going on, but basically you're still pissed off about it, you won't see it. If you just would rather not pay attention to it, of course, you won't see it.

[39:39]

But if you watch this thing in an upright way without any approach, without approaching it, without avoiding it, without attaching to it, in other words, you watch it with no, you know, you don't even know that you're going to get anything out of watching me drink the cup. You think after, I'm not saying you do, but one might think after he puts the cup down, we're going to have this instruction and I'm going to be, maybe I'll get something out of that. But all the things that you don't even have any way to think about getting something out of, that's the way, that's where you're going to get something. That's where revelation occurs, is right when you weren't wanting it. So that's why it says here, he says, I thought it's nice, he says, the world for the most part, kachayana, is bound by approach, grasping, and inclination. I think that's a really nice little point there. In other words, sometimes people forget. about approaching and grasping, and they forget their inclination towards things. They forget to practice annihilationism and eternalism.

[40:41]

And they just sit there, and they see what's happening. They just see it. They look just like a Buddha. Isn't that amazing? For the most part, though, people don't do that. For the most part, they're like... you think I'm going to waste this moment and not get something out of it? I came all the way to Tassajara, you know. But, you know, while he's drinking his water, I'll just rest here a little bit here and just watch him drink the water. Oh, look at that guy. That's how to meditate. So, like, you know this story, it's in the book of Serenity, case 37. So, One monk says to another one, in the Flower of Dharma Sutra it says that the fundamental affliction of ignorance is itself the immutable knowledge of all Buddhas. I didn't think that would go over that well.

[41:47]

It's a mouthful, isn't it? Or an earful. You say it. You say it, Salvi. Can you say it? Okay. The fundamental things of life as time goes by. Is that how it goes? The fundamental affliction of ignorance. Say it. Thanks. Is itself the immutable knowledge of all Buddhas. Now can you say it? That's what the sutra says, you know, that's a translation, but anyway. So then the monk says, that seems rather difficult to understand, rather abstruse. And the other monk says, oh really, I think it's kind of straightforward.

[42:52]

Watch this. So there's a guy, young man sweeping the ground nearby, and he says, hey, kid. And the kid turns and looks and says, what? He says, is that not the immutable knowledge of all Buddhas? And then he says to the kid, what's Buddha? And the kid goes, uh, uh, and wanders off in embarrassment. not being able to answer the Zen master's question. And then he says, is that not the fundamental affliction of ignorance? So, you see? Is that clear? How that applied to what I was talking about before? Not quite? No? No? So something happens and you go, hmm. Somebody says, hey you, and you turn your head. You don't think, now, what's the way to turn my head?

[43:56]

How am I going to meditate properly here so I can see the other dependent nature of whatever just called me? You just turn your head. That's the way you meditate. That's what a Buddha would do. Of course, Buddha would turn like this. But anyway... Put his head stuck, you know, into his shoulders. But anyway, you would respond. You would respond without any deliberation, without, you know, some kind of way of, what's the right answer to the question, hey, you, kid? But then when he says, what's Buddha, or how do you meditate in order to see the middle way or whatever, then you start thinking, and then your inclinations, you know, that's Zen student, okay, me Zen student, right, you know, what's the right answer, you know, but if you weren't a Zen student, and somebody says, what's Buddha, you go, hmm? That's what a Buddha would do if a Buddha didn't know what a Buddha was. Go, hmm? What's that?

[44:56]

That's what you are. Oh, okay, well, it's me then, I guess, isn't it? But, you know, you don't have some, like, you're not inclined You know, it's not over there and so on. In other words, what? You're just upright. You've given up these inclinations. That's how to meditate on what's happening in order to have the other dependent nature And when that arises, then you can watch things without overlaying them with these big heavy theories that just encumber you and cause you to be less effective in doing the things you really want to do. They encumber you from being kind and loving and harmonious with all beings. Does that make sense? Okay. Okay. Thank you for your questions. And then, so there's Ilan and then Flint.

[45:57]

Oh, and Ilan and Sophia. I want to go back to the question of death and how it seems that conventional society copes with it by going to the extremes of either annihilation or eternalism. Right. by holding on to the body, put it in a nice box, maybe it'll last for a while, or holding on to the, let's call it the spirit, the spirit of the person, and saying that it lives forever. In the Zen tradition of feeling with the body, my understanding is that it's incinerated and the ashes are scattered, which I think to be a symbolic act.

[47:16]

Is this the symbolism for letting go? I don't quite understand some of that. Uh-huh. And is it part of the middle way? Well, the last two things you said I would like to, you know, kind of like give them their due, okay? This thing about cremating the body or incinerating the body, for you to see that as a symbol... Did you say symbol? a symbol of letting go, I think that's really lovely. Sometimes at our funeral ceremonies we light a torch and we make a circle with it, you know. This circle of flames, you know, is very nice. It's a symbol, you could say it's a symbol of letting go. Just let go, okay, just take that flame and

[48:21]

Make a circle and let go. Let go. Very lovely. It's for the person that died. It's for everybody that sees that circle. Let's remember the circle of fire and let go. And that's the middle way. Now the curriculum of middle way is birth and death and a lot of anxiety, but let's just make these circles. And let go. Make a circle and let go. Make a circle and let go. So anyway, that's just your sense of what that's about today. I think that's a very lovely sense, a very lovely meditation. It's not really Zen. It's not really Buddhism. It's just a really nice meditation that you just thought of just now. And there's other nice meditations too, but that's very good.

[49:25]

Do that with everything. Even let go of things that are happening. Let go of birth too. Let go of the newborn baby. And then you can take care of it better. Okay? Is that okay? Sophia? Sophia? Compassion is the source, is the root of working with this stuff. Pardon? Compassion? I have this idea of compassion. Pardon?

[50:29]

Like it's warm and pleasant. It is kind of pleasant. Compassion makes, you know, when you're with somebody who's suffering and you feel compassionate, it makes it warmer and more pleasant. But, you know, not burning hot, but compassion is helpful when you're suffering. Right away it's helpful. So part of compassion is patience. Yeah. So you got some suffering? Well, practicing patience makes the suffering more bearable. Another word is tolerance. You develop your tolerance for suffering. That's part of what it takes to practice the middle way, is we don't just practice the middle way up in some little section of our brain. We practice it with our feet down in all the suffering of the world. That's where we practice it. That's where the Buddha practices it. And you bring compassion into your life or into manifestation any way you can.

[51:34]

You bring it up from, you know, the bottom of your heart and you bring it in from the whole universe which surrounds you with love. There's bodhisattvas around you all the time beaming you compassion. You accept that. You let it come into you and you let it come up from inside you. This great compassion comes from all directions at once. Then that will help you put your feet down in the world of suffering. And then that's where you practice the middle way. But compassion is not only feeling the pain and being open and accepting to it, but also getting yourself to the middle of it. Because that's the safest place. It can't hurt you when it's real close. But if it gets a few feet away or a few blocks away, you become remote control woman. Then the pain drives you all over the place. But you go and you sit in the middle of it, it can't push you around anymore, which is a much more comfortable relationship with it.

[52:38]

And you also practice generosity. You let yourself be the way you are. You give yourself what's happening to yourself. You joyfully let yourself be that way. That's loving kindness. That's generosity. You let yourself, you just let yourself be. And you let other things be. That's compassion. And you practice also being careful of things. That's part of it too. You be gentle with this pain. Don't smash it. Don't pump it up. Just let it be. And then also you'll be enthusiastic about compassion. You're enthusiastic about it. You know, you think about that you want to practice it because you know it's good for you and good for us. And you know it's going to put your roots deeply in the way. So you think you want to do it. And you think about how good it is until you feel a lot of joy about practicing compassion. And so on. And you're concentrated, too.

[53:41]

You're not distracted from your pain. That's part of compassion too. You're not sticking your head into it. That's overly, overdoing concentration. You're just not running away. You're there. So all these dimensions, all these dimensions of love and compassion are how you take your seat and from that place you practice the middle way. But you don't do it all by your own self, you know. When compassion is living in you, that's not because you did it by yourself. That's because Buddha is living in you. But if you fight it, even Buddha can't, you know, force you to open to Buddha's compassion. But this is Buddha's compassion. You can practice it and you can be practiced it both ways. But it's the root of the whole thing, is compassion.

[54:43]

And you can say, well, isn't there something even more basic than compassion called suffering? Which is, you know... But really, I think compassion is more fundamental than even suffering. Of course, it doesn't make any sense without suffering, so it's not separable from suffering, but... Anyway, Buddhas are born from compassion. That's where they start. The middle way... that the Buddhas realized was born from compassion. And the middle way is how we realize wisdom and therefore even purify this compassion from all duality. Easy to say, but compassion is It is nice. It helps right away when you get the hang of it. It's helpful. It helps you settle into this difficult situation. It doesn't all by itself wipe away the pain. It just helps you take your seat in the middle of it.

[55:47]

Then wisdom can grow, and wisdom does wipe it away. Not exactly wipe it away. Wisdom shows you that it's been wiped away. And so is everything else. But since your feet are in compassion, after you realize wisdom, you come back into the world where there's things and develop virtues. Even after realizing that nothing ultimately is eternal or annihilated. Okay? Flint? Flint? Yes. Yes. Is that what he means? Yes. Non-thinking. So, he says... In Dogen's instruction on Zazen, he says, you know, cross your legs, cross those little phenomenal legs, half lotus, full lotus, whatever, you know.

[57:14]

Anyway, you sit there, and you settle into a steady, immobile sitting position, and then think like a Buddha. In other words, think of not thinking. That's how Buddhists think, weird, weird way. Well, how do you think like a Buddha? Non-thinking. So Clint's question is, is non-thinking this way I was talking to Carolyn about? Yes. Non-thinking is this not approaching thinking, not avoiding thinking, giving up all your tendencies and inclinations and dispositions towards thinking. That's non-thinking. When you practice non-thinking, you enter into this weird thing called thinking which is beyond thinking, which is the way Buddhists think. which means you enter into thinking which is at one with how things happen. Yeah.

[58:19]

So let's see. Giuliano and Nancy. Was there anybody else that I missed? And Rene and Dee. Did I miss anybody? Okay. Okay. I keep wondering about suffering, sort of like bad suffering underneath it all. Do we all share equally in that, or it just seems like some people suffer pretty much more than other people. It does. It does seem that way. So we don't know. We can't know. It seems like some people are suffering more than other people, but it's also ultimately true that all the suffering people are completely interdependent. So it's not that big a deal who's suffering more than another, actually. Because whatever amount of suffering you're dealing with, you've got to work with that.

[59:26]

And after you take care of that, then you're going to have to work with everybody else's. So don't be in a rush to get your thing over with or get their thing over with because it's just this huge, endless, non-dual thing. So it's not that big a deal who's suffering more or less. That's just the same as who is me and who is not me. It's the same kind of world. Just practice compassion with what you've got on your plate. And when you've finished your meal, let us know and we'll give you more. Your reward for finishing, you know, for liberating yourself will be all of the beings, which you'll be happy to do. You'll be raring to go, hopefully, to work with all other beings, some of whom maybe were suffering less than you, some of whom were suffering more than you.

[60:27]

It's not so much about more or less suffering. It's about being patient in the middle of the suffering you've got. Some people, you look at some people, they look like they've got low-level suffering, but they're totally impatient with it. You know, it's hard to measure, you know, but it looks like, you know, they live in Marin, right? They don't have cancer. They've got a nice family. You know, they get to go to the Zen Center for retreats. They're basically, you know, got a really good deal. They're good looking. They're smart. They're even pretty nice. They suffer, yeah, but how much are they suffering? I mean, it isn't that bad. But anyway, they're totally, not totally, but they're really impatient and they're complaining all the time. They're a little bit nice, but they're mostly complaining. Their patient's practice seems to be really wimpy.

[61:30]

And they're pretty irritable and angry. This other person, you know, lives in some other neighborhood, has cancer, not very smart and pretty ugly. And people aren't very nice to him, but he never complains. Now, of course, if he keeps that up for long, people are going to start being nice to him. But anyway, right now, he hasn't been discovered yet as a patient person. But you look at him, and you put your hands together, and you bow to him because he's You know, he's on the path. He's practicing patience with his suffering, which seems to be more than this other guy. But, you know, the point is patience, not how much pain you've got. If you've got a little pain now, practice patience. Because a big one's going to come soon. You know, it's going to come. Don't worry. But if the pain is huge... If the pain is huge, yes.

[62:33]

Wouldn't you be more inclined to turn away? Yes, you would. Unless you were... skillful to patience and then you would be less inclined to turn away matter of fact in my case i might say in certain big pains i'm better i'm less likely to turn away from the really big ones and the little ones because the little ones i think hey we don't need this one this is like optional this little one here But I'm kind of ready for cancer. Maybe I'm bragging, but if it comes at least at the initial phases, I'm going to be like, hey, here it comes. It's my big chance. Now maybe that's like when I first go to the doctor's office, the doctor says, you've got cancer. I say, okay, here we go. Here we go. Take the seat. Here we go. Now maybe at the later phases...

[63:35]

where I feel like I'm being torn to shreds. Maybe then I'll have some more difficulty. But I don't think I'm going to change my mind about the basic practice of patience with this cancer. I definitely want to practice patience with cancer. I do. I'm saying that. But do I want to practice patience with the person who calls me, who wants me to subscribe to the Chronicle? Do I practice patience with the long-distance operator who doesn't really want to help me? Do I practice patience with that? This is not a huge pain, but I have some tendency to think, well, is anybody watching now? Is this call being taped, you know?

[64:37]

In reverse? Is Buddha listening to, you know, to see if I'm serving this person who's supposed to be serving me? So for me, the little ones are harder than the big ones. The big ones, I know I gotta, I know my whole life is like, you know, everybody's watching. Well, how does he handle cancer? Is his practice any good? Actually, this is the kind of thing that I don't have to be patient with, right? Yes, Jackie? In reference to your question, didn't you say the first day that we get the exact dosage at the right time? That's what I think. That's the way I meditate. So perhaps those who suffer more can handle more. I don't know about that.

[65:43]

That's a little bit different. Don't you think as your patience expands, more suffering... To some extent, I think if you open up to some suffering, some part of you is ready for it. Otherwise, you wouldn't let it happen. But sometimes it also seems like being ready does not necessarily... If what you mean by being ready does not necessarily include that you're ready to practice patience, So sometimes part of your mind wants you to face something and it opens up so you can see it, but another part of your practice is not yet ready to practice with it skillfully. But part of your mind feels like, you know, would you please stop stressing the system by ignoring this thing and let it in? So part of you definitely wants it to be revealed. So I think that's the part where, yes, you are ready for it in the sense of your mind is ready to stop fighting and denying. Your mind has come to the place where it is saying, I'd rather face this than keep lying about it.

[66:46]

The lying is worse than the thing. But that doesn't mean you're ready to practice patience with it. That's a little bit different. But that's another aspect. But patience is also to say, okay, this is the Dharma door. I accept whatever's coming. I'm going to work with this. Tiny little pain, huge pain, medium-sized pain. I'm going to work with this. That's my vow. And I'm not going to be inclined. I'm not going to fall with my prejudice and my disposition of, oh, these things I'm going to be patient with, but these I'm not. A lot of people have trouble with that. They think, like, for example, last workshop, a person said, what about being patient with injustice? Should we be patient with injustice? It doesn't mean, patient with injustice means you're patient with the pain you feel when you see injustice. It doesn't mean that you say injustice is okay. Patience doesn't mean that you let a bad thing happen. Patience means you don't freak out about the pain you feel when you see a bad thing.

[67:49]

But if you practice patience, you're more able to make an incisive, helpful comment about a bad thing. I feel. But it doesn't mean that you let injustice just sit there. It means, first of all, you settle with the pain you feel about it, and then you say, I have a question. I have a question. May I ask a question here? And you're not freaked out. You're there, you know. You're not afraid. You're not afraid. what they're going to do to you. Or if you are afraid, you're settling with the pain of that, but you still want to say something about this. and you have a clear voice, and you're not blaming them. You're just a human being who's respectful of the situation and wants to ask a question or whatever, or state an opinion. You can do that. And it's just like people listen to you because they say, they feel, oh, whoever's talking, I don't know who it is, but I feel like they're respectful. I feel a respectful quality. This is like an intelligent person. What do you have to say? They listen.

[68:51]

But if you talk disrespectfully and impatiently, they don't even know what you're saying. They can't even hear what you're saying. All they hear is, somebody's stupid. Somebody doesn't respect me. They get defensive. What's he going to do next? Is he going to attack me? That's all they're worth. They're scared. You've made them frightened. They can't hear a word. But if you speak kindly, they start to open up and relax a little bit maybe. And then you can make a comment and maybe they'll listen because they respect you because you respect them. Now sometimes you respect them and they don't get it right away. So you do it again and again until they listen. But anyway, differences in suffering, the point is we don't just practice compassion with people who are suffering a lot. We practice compassion with people who are suffering a tiny bit, including ourself. Because again, you can cause major damage getting impatient over a small pain.

[69:54]

I could hurt a long-distance operator a lot over the tiny pain I feel of her not helping me if I get angry at her. You know, you could ruin her day if you say just the right kind of mean thing. Or you could make her day by practicing patience and coming back with a... You know, she knows she's being unhelpful, probably. When you come back with some kind of like... something coming from patience, it could be quite helpful to her. Little thing, practice compassion. Big thing, practice patience. Little thing, practice compassion. Big thing, practice compassion. Try to develop continuity. Keep your... Self-rooted in compassion. Like you're nailed to compassion. That's just almost like attached.

[70:57]

But more like rooted. Rooted in compassion. All day long, practice compassion. All day long, you know. All day long. Every thought, every thought, every thought, Avalokiteshvara. At the end it's nen [...] kanze namu butsu nen nen. nen means moment by moment, thought by thought, compassion, [...] compassion. Then you can enter into this school of suffering, school of anxiety, and then you can practice being upright and see. In the night, in the morning, and at noon, every moment, practice compassion. Don't say, oh, a little pain. No, no, no. Take a little break.

[72:00]

Oh, big pain. Oh, yeah, I should practice compassion now. That's okay, but then don't stop when the little one comes up. Oh, so-and-so is so miserable. Oh, I get the picture. Okay, time to practice compassion. But somebody's just a little bit irritable, you know, a little bit nasty. I can skip over that one. So, you have to see Renee and Susan. Anybody else? Oh, Renee, Nancy. D. Susan Louise. Okay, here we go. Renee? Okay, Nancy? Okay. or even a devotion to practices such as celibacy, having one meal a day, other practices.

[73:11]

And I kind of feel conflicted in a way. It seems as though if someone is here committed to Yeah. Uh-huh. [...] How the middle way is one with those practices you spoke of just now? Well, I mentioned the other day that I usually don't recommend celibacy to people. What I usually recommend is, if you think it would be a good idea to become involved in a sexual relationship, please come and talk to me about it beforehand.

[74:22]

Because I feel like, as you said, if a person's carrying the celibacy thing, it sometimes makes it more difficult for them to look at their sexual behavior clearly. Because, as you say, they might start repressing things. But the other thing that, as I said, which is even quite surprising, is celibate people become eroticized, especially Well, actually, both men and women, I think, when they're practicing celibacy, other people find them more attractive. Some kind of really unattractive people, when they're practicing celibacy, everybody gets really interested in them. Like, you know, what have you got there that you're, you know... Anyway, kind of more interesting. They were not very interesting before, but now at least they've got something going. So I think that... It's more like most of us non-mutants are sexual beings, and so we have to deal with sexuality.

[75:28]

And the way to deal with it is to be upright with it. That's what I feel. But at the same time that I feel upright really is where it's at, if someone thinks it would be good and upright to get involved in a relationship, if they're working with me, I would usually say, well, come and tell me about it beforehand so you can get some reflection. Because maybe you're leaning a little bit and you don't notice it. Because sometimes, as you may have heard, people think they're sitting straight, but they're kind of leaning. Sometimes they're leaning way over. As a matter of fact, sometimes they're asleep dreaming that they're sitting up straight, but their head's down on the ground. But somebody else has a different perspective, so they adjust your posture, you know? So you may think, oh, a sexual relationship, that would be a good idea, you know? Let's say you're not celibate, but you think a sexual relationship would be good, but you have made the agreement with your teacher to go and talk about it before you get involved in an appropriate relationship.

[76:34]

Now, aside from celibacy, all Buddhists are committed to appropriate sexual relationships. But some, within that, think of celibacy. But what I do with some people, not with everybody, I haven't done it with all of you, is say with some people, particularly priests, do not start a sexual relationship before talking to me about it. And if you think it's inappropriate, don't even talk to me about it, unless you want to confess that you're having dreams of doing something really bad. But if you actually think it would be good, come and talk to me about it. Then they don't have to, like, not think about it. And then they also aren't so attractive to other people, and other people aren't so attractive to them. But when you can't have sex, then it's like everybody gets really interesting. Like, I can't have sex with any of these people now. Oh, my God. Everywhere I go, it's like everybody's a sexual object, maybe. And it doesn't always go that way, but that's not the middle way.

[77:34]

That's like using celibacy to indulge in sensual pleasure, because once you're celibate, everybody's like a distraction now, maybe. But some people practice celibacy in this way of, it's very light, you know, they don't get into oppressiveness, they don't find other people more attractive just because they've renounced sexual activity in that form. But sexual activity, I don't think sexual activity stops. It's just certain manifestations are supposed to stop in celibacy by certain definitions. You agree? Like, some people agree celibacy means, you know, no sexual intercourse. You know, and then be specific about what that means. Okay? We had this thing with the president, right? So you get specific. We mean that too. That's also sexual intercourse. So you get clear what that means.

[78:38]

But it doesn't mean you're not a sexual being. You're still sexual. It's just you stop certain kinds of behaviors. So like I said in class the other day, I wanted to know, did the Buddha touch anybody? Because one of the rules they developed later was don't touch people. For the monks, they didn't touch people. So I'd like to know, is there an example of the Buddha touching somebody? But then the Buddha was not under the same discipline as his monks. But I still would like to know, did the Buddha touch a woman? Or not? He touched his wife. After he was Buddha? Oh, he didn't? I don't know. Check the scriptures for me, would you? So what kind of touching is appropriate sexuality? Touching somebody, I mean, to say that that's not sexual, well, who says that it's not sexual?

[79:40]

So I might say, before you touch anybody, check with me. I do have a long line of people, yes. And maybe get a little longer. But then again, it might get a lot shorter. Some people say, he's too strict. He asked me to talk to him before I touch anybody. I don't want that teacher anymore. I'm going to get a different teacher, one that lets me touch people without talking to them. So my lines might get really short if I told all of you to do that. So does that make sense? It is, and also sex can be an expression of compassion too. The question is, is it? And who do you check with to see if it is? Same with yourself. You can touch yourself in a sexually inappropriate way, and you can touch yourself in an inappropriate way.

[80:44]

And so what I say to priests is, Before you get into a sexual relationship, talk to me about it to see if it's really going to be appropriate. Because, again, you might think, I feel perfectly balanced about this. I think it's really going to be beneficial. And, you know, I think it'd be good. So then you go talk to your teacher and tell your teacher about it. Teacher says, oh, yeah? Well, did you know that person was married? No, I didn't. Oh, okay. Well, did you know that person was on drugs? No, I didn't. Did you know that person was 16? No. No, I didn't. Well, you know, you overlooked a few things. Did you notice that you're, you know, salivating right now? And so on, you know. In other words, you might think you're awake, you know. Did the teacher say, do you know that, do you see that, do you realize this is a dream, you know? And you wake up from the dream. Oh, my God, that was a dream. In my dream, I thought that would be a good idea, and I woke up.

[81:52]

So you go see the teacher, and maybe you wake up from the dream, and you see that this is not a good idea. Sometimes the teacher may say, you say, I think this would be really a good thing to start a sexual relationship with so-and-so. And the teacher might say, you think it's a good idea to start a sexual relationship with so-and-so. And when the teacher says that, you realize, oh, I see. And sometimes the teacher says, what did you say? What did you say? And sometimes the teacher says, you know, freaks out. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Just means you got a freaked out teacher. Now, what's that about? What's the matter, boss? You got a problem there? Maybe the teacher thinks, that would be great. Terrific, you know. That would really be helpful. I can see, you know, you finally found the right moment and the right person and the right spirit for a really beneficial relationship that includes sexual activity as an expression of compassion and love and Buddha's way.

[82:55]

It can happen. But are you going to decide all by yourself? Do you know all by yourself if you're standing up straight? Who knows that they're standing up straight? Who knows? Most people need some help. So I say rather than make a policy... which then you think you know what that means, and maybe get in more trouble because of it. I've seen that happen. If somebody has no problems with sexuality, they become celibate, and immediately they get in big trouble. I know this woman who, you know, she was not celibate and life was going very nicely. She went to a monastery as a celibate person and she was not celibate and caused a big uproar because of her practice of celibacy. It really caused major damage that she took on that vow. And anyway, so I would say you need help to figure out how to practice these limitations.

[84:00]

And again, if you come to a monastery that has meals at regular times and they say don't eat between meals, if you don't want to, you can try that. And if it doesn't seem appropriate for you, then maybe you say, well, I tried it and I don't think it was appropriate. So that monastic practice doesn't work for me. It's okay. You can try it. And if you think it's harmful, you know, go talk to the teacher about it and say, this doesn't seem to work for me. Well, maybe it won't. A basic image that I often say to people is that the monastic forms are like a trellis. And you're like a wisteria plant. And you grow up on this trellis. And the wisteria plant grabs the trellis at various points. You touch it at various points, but the wisteria plant is not the same shape as the trellis. It would be strange if the plant went vertical, horizontal, vertical, horizontal. But it uses the trellis to support its luxuriant life.

[85:03]

And without a trellis, wisteria would just crawl all over itself and die on the ground. People would step on it, but also it would suffocate itself, I think. It needs support to grow. And the precepts or the monastic forms are a way for you to grow. But most of what you're doing is your own personal expression in relationship to the form. But you use the form as a support, and then you go off into midair and do a few curlicues, and you hook on again and go off. So you make this nice life based on this form. And you hold it at various points for support, but not to rigidly become it. Nobody's the schedule. Nobody's celibacy. Nobody's like one meal a day. You just use these forms to grow a spiritual plant. If you try to make yourself into the trellis, you know, a trellis is dead wood or metal, but the plant isn't. So the plant should not be like the trellis, but the trellis can be very helpful.

[86:07]

Monastic forms, for some people, can be very helpful. I've seen some very nice results. People do come here, do practice periods, and grow very nicely. Other people come and sometimes they're too tight and there gets to be too much, but then we sort of say, come on, let go, let go, let go. Just go out a little bit there, you know. Take a nap. Here, have something to eat. Rest. Don't be exactly on time. Be a little bit early. Be a little bit late. Loosen up. But that's why we have asangas, to catch people that are too tight on the forms. And some people are too loose. And they're sort of rolling around, suffocating themselves with their own growth. Come on, come on. Take a hold. Lift yourself up. So it's a middle way. It's middle way. Some people use the forms to abuse themselves and mortify themselves.

[87:11]

Other people use the forms as a way to practice indulgence and addiction to pleasure. We've seen it all here, folks. Maybe later, if you want, I'll tell you some stories about both sides. I have some good ones. Thirty-two years, I've collected quite a few. That would be a great book, Stories of Monastic Indulgence. Monastic deviation. Pardon? It would be just the blue annals of Tassajara. Renee? I had two questions. First is... Five fears. Fear of death. Well, actually, they're all about loss, actually. Fear of loss of life. Fear of loss of control of your mind. Fear of loss of livelihood. Fear of loss of reputation. And speaking in front of a large group, which includes fear of loss of life, fear of loss of reputation, fear of loss of livelihood, fear of loss of your mind, control of your mind, and fear of loss of your bowels.

[88:24]

Bowel control. It should be, but it's not. It's related to fear of loss of reputation. And also, you know, anyway, those are the usual five. I usually add a sixth one, which is fear of loss, you know, fear of love. That's the sixth one. Fear of love. Fear of loss of love is like fear of loss of reputation, but fear of love means fear of loss of, you know, loss of control, right? Loss of... But they're all about loss, losing something, right? So we're afraid of losing our grip. But I guess my second question is about the sixth one. We've talked a lot about... difficulty in facing anxiety.

[89:26]

I mean, difficulty not only in facing pain, but in facing beauty. And it's just almost tremendous resistance I have in some way facing pain. I mean, I don't know if that's true exactly, but facing beauty, great beauty, I fall off just as much. If we knew at the origins of our being that Look, turning away from beauty would be painful. We still might turn away from beauty. But in fact, anyway, you do get pain as a reward for turning away from beauty. But it is hard. We do have some built-in habits and dispositions to turn away from beauty. which means to turn away from seeing how things happen. How things happen is fundamentally, primarily, and first of all, beautiful.

[90:30]

When you see something as it comes to be, that's beautiful to see. That is beauty that you're seeing. But it's hard for us to steadily watch that. And it's hard for us because we have, what do you call it, equipment that, you know, tends to make us turn away. The equipment of our mind, which is instinctively geared to look away from interdependence and to look towards creating independent objects out there. Because, again, it's a powerful thing to do. And seeing beauty is not powerful. You don't get any power out of it. You just see beauty and adore it and not even have it out there. Just be in the... in the life of being with beauty. But we don't get anything from that.

[91:36]

But we do get something from looking away from beauty and seeing things out there and trying to get control of things. So the same thing applies to what you were talking about before, is promoting yourself with love and compassion and that's what you stand for. Yeah. Because when you think of letting go of control and facing beauty, then all these fears come up because they're all about losing control. It's not really fear of death exactly. It's fear of losing life. We're not really afraid of death. We're afraid of losing life. But death is not the same as losing life. So I don't know who's next. I forgot. Susan, did you have a question? Okay, Susan. Yeah. Right.

[92:42]

Exactly. in an appropriate way because it doesn't really matter. It'll be gone. Right. [...] Those are various examples of how If you have that tendency of annihilation in the back, you don't practice the precepts. I shouldn't say you don't, but you might not because you think you don't have to. Because you think, I'm not going to have to live with this person for the rest of my life, or again and again anyway, so I'll just do this.

[93:44]

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