According to the teaching of the Buddha, the Tathāgata, no living being is outside. True, outside, the Buddha nature, no living being can escape from it. Just like birds fly in the air, and no matter how far they fly, they never die.

[01:06]

Birds run out of air, and fish swim in the water, but no matter how far they swim, they never run out of water. The birds are full of air, and they never get out of the air. Know that air is life to the bird, and water is life to the fish. When their need is great, their range is great.

[02:17]

When their activity is large, their field is large. The same can be said for practice, enlightenment, and human beings. That which we can't get away from, and that which fills us, that's what we mean by the Buddha nature. In one sense, that might be encouraging to you, and in another sense, you might feel like, well, not discouraged, but you might feel like, well, why make an effort then, if I'm already full of it and I can't get out of it?

[03:32]

That's okay. Because, after all, as it says here about the Buddha, the jewel of the Buddha, Hereafter, we should explain the meaning of the shloka, the basic verses. Those living beings who are led by the Tathagata, while taking their refuge in the Tathagata, also take refuge in the Dharma and the Sangha, so that life has the natural outflow of reality. Oh, excuse me. So that faith has the natural outflow of reality.

[04:41]

Faith has a natural outflow of reality. So again, faith is not like, I believe in Buddha exactly, or I believe in the Tathagata, but it's something that flows out of it. It's a natural outflow of Tathagata. Therefore, first of all, there is one shloka with regard to the jewel of the Buddha. I vow to the one who has realized the Buddha body, which has neither beginning, middle, or end, and is quiet. And who, having realized, taught the path, fearless and eternal, in order to enlighten the ignorant. And who, having in hand the excellent sword and thunderbolt of wisdom and compassion, cuts into pieces all sprouts of suffering and breaks the walls of doubt, concealed in the forest of various views.

[06:02]

The Eightfold Quality of Buddhahood. What is shown by this verse which we just read? First of all, being immutable. Second of all, being free from efforts. And not being dependent on others. Being endowed with wisdom and compassion and power, imparted by both, the Buddha has two kinds of benefit. So the Buddha is free from efforts. So maybe it's okay not to make an effort. Now, the same could be said for people.

[07:26]

Namely, people swim in something. And no matter how far they swim, they never run out of it. And I myself, often talk, I say, fish swim in the water, no matter how far they swim, they never run out of water. And then I sometimes say, people swim in confusion, and no matter how far they swim, they never run out of confusion. Know that confusion is life to people. Although the people never run out of confusion, if they leave confusion, they die at once. And you can say the same thing about Buddha nature. People swim in Buddha nature, and no matter how far they swim, they never run out of it.

[08:29]

Buddha nature is life to people. And as soon as they leave Buddha nature, they die immediately. So where's the effort? See any effort in this story? Where do you see the effort? In the swimming. That's the effort. Whether you're swimming in confusion, or swimming in Buddha nature. If you live in confusion, you don't make no effort.

[09:33]

If you live in confusion, you work hard, you swim. Sometimes you swim hard, sometimes you swim soft, but you don't stop swimming. And you never stop swimming, you never get out of the water. And the same in Buddha nature. If you're in Buddha nature, you never stop swimming, and you never get out of it. What's the difference between the Buddhas? Where do the Buddhas live? They live in the same place. They're born in that same confusion water, they're born in that same Buddha nature water.

[10:38]

They're born in that same confusion air, they're born in that same Buddha nature breath. What's the difference between Buddhas and sentient beings? What's the difference between Buddhas and sentient beings? Hi. It's a hot area over here today. Go ahead, you can both talk. What's the difference? What are you going to say? One realizes what's going on, the other doesn't.

[11:46]

But still, what's the difference between those two? Huh? Well, all those paying attention, realizing enjoyment, Buddhas don't want to be any different. What's the difference between those and whatever you want to say about the other bums? What's the difference? Huh? There's no difference, but what is the difference? Huh? No, the fact that people don't know there's no difference is not what makes the difference. It's that you notice the difference. How do you notice the difference? You notice the difference. In other words, the difference is that you notice the difference. As Dogen says, flowers fall in our attachment, weeds grow in our dislike. That's the difference. So, everything each of you said is true about the Buddhas,

[12:51]

and really there is no difference, but you can see differences. The fact that you can see differences, which are correct, between the Buddhas and the sentient beings, that's what makes the difference. Aside from seeing the difference, there would be no difference. And the Buddhas don't see the difference. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what they see, is they see it's the same. That's what it means to enjoy it. That's what it means to be willing to stay in it. That's what it means to realize it. But Buddhas see that sentient beings are suffering and want to be a part of the suffering. So do sentient beings. Sentient beings see that they're suffering too. But Buddhas don't see that other Buddhas are suffering and want to be a part of the suffering. Sentient beings don't think so either. They don't see other Buddhas are suffering. But, what you say, what I just said, what you just said, and what I just said, that's what makes the difference.

[13:56]

Because I'm talking about Buddhas and sentient beings too. Sentient beings are not enlightened and Buddhas are. That's regular teaching, right? But what sees that? What sees that difference? Does Buddhas see that difference? Sure, Buddhas got a brain. Do you see that difference? Sure, you've got a brain. You're just as smart as Buddha. Buddha also sees that they're the same. And, we don't. As sentient beings, we don't see they're the same. Therefore, we suffer a lot. But, what's the difference between our suffering and Buddha's suffering? It's up here, that's where the difference is. It's in the discrimination of Buddha's suffering this way,

[14:59]

sentient beings' suffering is that way. So, your discriminations are fine, and then I can make other discriminations about your discriminations. But, the difference between the Buddha and the sentient being is only due to your discrimination. Because the Buddhas have found out that things are the same. And, they found out that the reason why there's a difference between sentient beings and themselves is because of the discrimination. Fundamentally, there's not a difference. And then, of course, they say, why do we make this effort? Why do we sit such sheens? So, I mean, you know, you can say,

[16:00]

there's no reason why we do it. Or, you can open your mouth, and tons of reasons will come out. Millions, trillions, boundless reasons why we make an effort. Even though, we don't need to make an effort. Buddhas work hard. And, they're free from everything. Who gets to be free of efforts? Who gets to be free of efforts? Those who make no efforts? There are no such creatures that don't make efforts. So, they get to be free of effort. So, if everybody makes effort, who gets to be free of effort? The Buddhas. Where are the Buddhas? That are free of effort?

[17:00]

Where are they? Can the Buddhas be something like effortless effort? Effortless effort? Effortless effort, that's the meaning of free of effort. Because, you know, where are these Buddhas? According to this teaching, where are these Buddhas? Yeah. They're everywhere. They're in the living beings. Yeah. What is the source of all this resistance? What fights enlightenment? What fights enlightenment? You mean, what covers over the enlightenment, or hides it?

[18:12]

You mean? You're talking about resistance, or? Or? What fights enlightenment? You don't understand what I'm asking. Well, that's a... No, I don't quite understand what you're asking. I'm saying, in practice, there is an effort. An effort, implicitly, means that something is being pushed through or against. And in actual experience, for almost, I think for all of us, if we experience something really resisting, every attempt we make to realize human nature. If human nature is... Well, let's take it back... Why this resistance? Well, again, I can think of swimming, okay? In order to swim, you have to push on the water.

[19:17]

Right? So the water is resisting your hands, therefore you can move. And your hands resist the water. Okay? But you do that all the time anyway, right? You're always resisting, because you're always pushing on something to live. Air comes into your body and pushes on your lungs. And then your diaphragm pushes, and pushes the air, some other air out. It's just... It's quite natural, isn't it, that there's this kind of resistance in life? So practice isn't different from that. Yes.

[20:22]

I'm still stuck. I understand what you're saying. But it seems to me that if we saw the movement of consciousness, if we saw human nature, why... Why is... What is the source of the experience of something fighting really hard against our realization? Why would Buddha nature be fighting against our realization? I mean, why does Buddha nature manifest itself in a living creature that's fighting against Buddha nature? Because Buddha nature...

[21:36]

Like that's where Buddha nature lives, is in creatures like that. Buddha nature... Those creatures can't get out of Buddha nature. And then Buddha nature not only surrounds these fighting creatures, these anti-Buddha nature people, it even sneaks in through their mouth, and through their ears, and through their pores, and fills their whole body. That's what it likes to do. Because it knows that when it fills this body that a Buddha can be born. And it sees... It sees some... Some sentient beings who are fighting Buddha nature and it goes... It sees some sentient beings who are kind of like, Yay! Buddha nature! I love it! It enters all living beings regardless of their party affiliation. It just... It just enters them completely. It's...

[22:39]

Because it is exactly what fills everything completely, and what includes everything completely. So you're saying... Why the resistance? Why the fighting? But not quite that, is it? Well, if it fills everything completely, then the resistance is also Buddha nature. Yeah, definitely. So why does Buddha nature manifest as we see? Well, this seems to be a good example of why it doesn't really lead anywhere. I mean, in the best of cases, through like the corpus, the chain of causation, and ultimately through emptiness. But the best we can do is to look how. I mean, ultimately we cannot intellectually

[23:43]

rationalize why anything is, why we are here, or why things are the way they are. But we can look exactly how they are. Yeah. Well, I agree with what Vanya said, but there's one thing more I have to say about this why stuff. It's kind of like... I was just... While Vanya was talking, I thought, you should go ask Buddha nature, Buddha nature, why do you enter this resistance? Why do you enter it? Buddha nature, will answer you if you ask. It's kind of like going up to somebody and saying, why do you love me? What? They never answer that. They never answer that. Maybe they give you a punch in the nose, though. Or like that,

[24:45]

in that movie, The Fiddler on the Roof. This woman said, I didn't never see the whole thing, but I remember this one song. The husband says to the wife, Do you love me? And she says, Love you? What do you mean, do I love you? For 25 years, I've been washing your socks and taking care of your kids. What do you mean, do I love you? Yes, yes, I know, but, Do you love me? I think he was first. I'd like to ask a dumb question. What is Buddha nature? Yeah. You know, it's like, I feel like, yeah, yeah,

[25:45]

I agree with what you said. And somebody left a question, and then I realized, I don't know if I understand or if I don't understand what's being talked about. So I just thought I'd ask, maybe rhetorically, or something else. What the hell does that phrase, Buddha nature, mean? It seems like I just, it's a real gigantic catch-all, sometimes. Sometimes I feel like I get caught up in using it too, too easily. Maybe I create a lot of problems, and so I kind of deal with these kinds of questions. When I listen to these questions and answers, I kind of feel like maybe I'm pushed out and torn apart at the same time. Just being so won't do. Just being like that won't do. Not being just so won't do either.

[26:47]

Being neither just so, nor not being just so won't do at all. How now, Brian? How now? I'm not sure if I followed that. It wasn't too easy for you, was it? It wasn't painful, but it wasn't easy. Yeah. But there it is. That's how it is, you know. That's how it was back in the time dynasty. It's like that.

[27:52]

It's real quiet. And if you make it real easy, then that doesn't quite fit. That's like, you know, just being so, or not being just so, or being neither. That's pretty easy to make Buddha nature like that. But Buddha nature is not hard either. That would be easy also. So part of what I don't like about this Tathagatagarbha teaching is that it says that this Buddha nature, or this yeah, this Buddha nature is covered over

[28:59]

by defilement. we have trouble seeing it or realizing it. Covered by what? By defilement. Defilement Buddha nature? It's Buddha nature, but it's a type of Buddha nature that hides Buddha nature. Okay. But Buddha nature is not always hidden. Sometimes it doesn't have any defilement around it. That's called, what do you call that? Awakening. That's called awakening. But some of the time, and we don't exactly have exact statistics on this, but some of the time

[30:04]

the Buddha nature is covered by a kind of Buddha nature called defilement. In other words, the Buddha nature is concealed. Where is it concealed? It's concealed in living beings. But it is stored there. That's where it's sitting and again, I don't know exactly what percentage, but a lot of Buddha nature is stored in sentient beings. And some of the Buddha nature that's stored in sentient beings is uncovered by the Buddha nature is revealed. This is called perfect enlightenment. And then, when this perfect enlightenment happens, these qualities happen with it. What happens to the defilement?

[31:05]

What happens to it? It moves along to a happy hunting ground. It goes away. Defilement is impermanent and so is Buddha nature. So defilement is always popping, popping, popping, just like Buddha nature. They're right together there. So, sometimes the defilement goes away and no new defilement comes. Or, always some defilement goes away and some different kind comes. But sometimes no new kind comes. But actually, there never was any defilement in the first place. That's what defilement is. Defilement is some stuff that's not really there. But,

[32:08]

there's two things that exist according to this teaching or in association with this teaching. There's two things that exist. One is that these defilements which are covering up the Buddha nature, which make it so that living beings can't enjoy the fact that they're totally packed, that they're chock-full of Buddha nature. The, that delusion is actually, has no inherent existence. So one thing that there really is, is emptiness of this obscuration The other thing that there is, is the existence of this non-existent stuff. It is the existence

[33:13]

of the non-existent. It really exists. Inherent existence. The existence of the non-existent. Inherent. Inherent. Inherent. But what about, I don't know, existence? Inherent existence? The existence of the inherent existence. What about that existence? The existence of the inherent existence? There isn't any. We don't have that one. We just have the other two.

[34:14]

We have that there is no inherent existence, that there isn't any. There's none. Okay? Then we have the existence of the appearance of inherent existence. In other words, we have the existence of something unreal. What does nihilism mean? Nihilistic? What does nihilism mean? Yeah. Nihilism is nothing,

[35:17]

no thing, really exists. That's what nihilism is. Nihilism makes nothing into a thing. That's what nihilism is. It's to make a basis out of nothing. What? Yeah, make all things nothing, but make them into a thing called nothing. That's nihilism. If you don't make nothing into a thing, it's not nihilism. Because nihilism is actually to take a stand on, you know, a thing called nothing. And, you know, that's quite different from seeing that things don't have inherent existence, including not to take a position on that or make that into a thing. What? What position am I taking? That's the first truth.

[36:21]

Okay? Those four alternatives, that's the first one. That's what no inherent existence is. The other one points out that although the first is true, also you have to recognize the fact that there is the appearance, the actual existence of things which the previous truth said there wasn't any. That's what the second one is saying. So there are these sentient beings. They really exist and the illusions which they're involved with, that don't really exist, there is the existence of these illusions. We really recognize these illusions as illusions and they really exist as a non-existent thing. There is the production of non-existent things. There is the production

[37:23]

of non-existent things. That exists. The production of illusion exists. So the first truth is liberating because you take the bottom out of all your attachments, all your illusions. You realize, that's to realize how quiet everything is. But, there also is the fact that illusions are continuously produced. That's the other thing we don't want to forget. One phase of Buddhist teaching was that all dharmas are empty, have no inherent existence. Then there came another phase, another turning, which said, yes, that's true, and illusion, empty things, are constantly produced. And that's an existence, that's a fact.

[38:23]

That's a fundamental fact is that illusions are continuously produced. Yeah. I wasn't so finished before. Now I think you're answering the part of Albert's question that I didn't feel was completed because I heard him not saying how come Buddha nature fills this resistance or whatever, call it ignorance, but how come Buddha nature manifests as ignorance. So, now that you're talking about these illusions being continuously produced, that begins to answer that question for me. Did you not answer Albert's question or was that a different thing? No, I did not answer him intentionally. Yeah, I might. It's true that I didn't feel that I didn't feel

[39:24]

that I didn't have this address in the beginning to get an idea of it. Well, yeah, now that Gail pointed it out and Paul pointed it out, now I feel like again, that second truth, that second existence is your question in that Buddha nature manifests as emptiness and it manifests as existence, for example. But it's not really manifesting that way. It's not manifesting as a real thing, it's just that it does this it does this production of illusion trip. Yes. Now, there is a notion that there is an absolute, a reality. It's the absolute, just a production of illusion. Um, you said there's a notion, are you talking about notions now? No, I'm talking about

[40:25]

teachings. Yeah, you're saying there's a teaching that there's an absolute? You mean like there's emptiness or something? Or there's to talk to? Okay, there is a teaching. When you're talking about the actual production of illusion, is that are you you're talking about are you you're talking about the absolute? Let me let me pull that question. Where does where does where does the notion of the absolute is what you've been saying? On the one hand, there's the four propositions.

[41:26]

On the other hand, there's the production of illusion. Hmm. I have a problem with the word absolute, but anyway, just to try to use I don't want to use it anymore, I'll use the Sanskrit word instead, okay? Suchness. Um, suchness is the stuff that or the realm of Dharma, the realm of truth is is what we can't get out of. And it's what completely fills us. Now, if you want to know about what exists or if you ask, you know, well, what is Buddha nature? How does it how does it exist? And we give you these alternatives to kind of like, again, contain it.

[42:28]

Those four alternatives make another container that you can't get out of. Because you want to make it this exists or doesn't exist or neither or both. But it isn't any of that, so that again again contains it so you can't you can't hurt it, you can't do anything with it. Just like you can't do anything with the with the air you breathe or the water you live in other than swim in it or breathe it. And these two these two ways of talking about how things exist one is saying that you one is saying you can't get out of it. You can't control it. You can't escape from it because you know you wouldn't know which way to turn to get out because it's not he is and it's not isn't or neither or both. So that completely confines you in it and that puts you in the womb. Puts a sentient being in that womb and also they are the womb

[43:29]

because the Buddha is going to come out of them. So it completely surrounds you and it completely invades you. And also the next thing is saying that the other thing is that illusions will be continuously produced. So the show will go on. So you shouldn't expect the show will go off anytime along the way either. So those two statements of existence could be you know could be heard as as putting you very much in the place you are not being able to get away and also appreciating that you really this stuff is coming up whatever you want to call it resistance or illusion that although it may not be real it has been produced and you can you can take that as a reality that it's been produced not that it's real. I don't know

[44:31]

it doesn't make sense to me. Um and that's such a really that doesn't to me that doesn't throw any more light on Albert's question than that one step back back to what Paulina said my brain hurts thinking about that stuff. And I don't see it seems like we're getting into finer and finer distinctions about the notion of about apparent reality the fact of that that this that illusion Oh just a second just a second I hope I'm not being read by interruptions but according to what you just said I think we should stop talking about this

[45:31]

because if you're getting sick it sounds like you're pursuing more of the same kind of sickness so does everybody pretty much feel sick of this stuff? Yeah It is kind of sickening isn't it? What is sickening about it? Why does it make you sick? What? What? I couldn't hear I'd like I'd like to not try to figure out what she said Well it doesn't my response to you doesn't mean that you're right or wrong Can I say anything?

[46:33]

I don't know We've been using the words suchness and emptiness so many times and sometimes it just strikes me as a concept it's just a concept and sometimes it makes a whole lot of sense and sometimes it's just a word and it probably has something to do with what's arising in me every second and sometimes I don't know what to do with this word emptiness and here I am sitting and life is happening every second what is emptiness? Is it just a word we use to get to that or Yeah that's what I said earlier this text has these seven vajra padas and pada means these seven hard to penetrate bases you know or bases are terms or words so I say emptiness

[47:35]

and it's like it's something you put your foot on or it's a basis and then it's just a word and if you can put your foot on or your mind on it and push off of that into something that's pretty hard to penetrate you may be able to penetrate it but the word when it first appears is just a word and it's just a point of departure so emptiness is a point of departure it's also just a word Buddha is just a word saying the word is a point of departure you say or listening to somebody talk about emptiness yeah or seeing the word or hearing the word or saying the word the word is a point of departure for entering something that's difficult in this case something rather difficult to enter sometimes you feel maybe some entry so you actually go beyond emptiness or beyond the word you go beyond the word into maybe emptiness

[48:37]

maybe something else but anyway you may have some penetration into something and then it's quite different from the word but you need the words actually in that story where where he said you know please show me and he said just being so won't do and so on and he couldn't say and he said how about you and he couldn't say anything part of the reason why he couldn't say anything is that he he actually didn't respect work he actually didn't realize how to use the words that were being said to him didn't realize how to step off from those words into the instruction I mean not in the instruction but into into that which can't be said so we say you know again the meaning is not in the words yet it responds

[49:38]

to the inquiring impulse so the some words come out and then some energy or some inquiry meets those words where's the meaning the meaning is not the words but the meaning somehow notices the energy that comes to meet the words so the words are put out there and somebody comes and stands on the words and the meaning says hey look somebody's standing there and the meaning comes and says hello so the meaning is what's happening the meaning is not what's happening yeah that's right the meaning is what's happening and part of what's happening is that somebody comes to look at the word somebody walks over the word and says hey there's a word emptiness or this is form is empty somebody reads that and somebody says well that's let's see if I say if I say I don't like it if I don't like that teaching is that the arrival

[50:39]

of energy well sort of but when I say when I say I don't like the teaching form is emptiness something else happens at the same time as that that that which happens at the same time I say I don't like that that's what responds to my energy or like that little kid when he first heard no eyes no ears no nose he came he heard those words and he went over those words and he said I don't understand that teaching I have eyes I have ears and when he said that the teacher he had said I'm not your teacher you should go study over there so

[51:43]

when you hear words you you if you go to meet them if you I mean when you hear words you always respond you always some energy comes back to those words if you can see the energy that you bring to those words when you hear them then something responds to your energy when you meet the words the thing that the the thing that responds is the meaning what's happening is actually the energy and the response what's his name Matsu comes to meet the companion what's happening is not the companion or Matsu it's both of them together and now in that way very particularly how they're responding to each other that relationship that's what that whole thing

[52:47]

plus particularly the space in between and that that little back and forth so there's an image in Zen you know that I found out from people who know more about chickens than I do that this doesn't work so well but anyway the image there's a chicken and an egg a chicken egg and there's a mother chick outside a mother chicken right mother chick and when the chick pecks the mother pecks back chick pecks mother pecks back mother pecks chick pecks chick pecks mother pecks mother pecks oh chick pecks back [...] and they break the they break the shell together somebody told me that of course in in these a lot of commercial situations this isn't happening some people say it doesn't even happen in the wild but anyway still

[53:47]

that's the image the image is peck peck some words come out somebody brings some energy to it somebody comes and says what's that about and and there's a response and then and the response is a word or something some basis and then there's if more energy comes to that basis to that to meet those words or to meet that gesture if more energy comes if more inquiry comes another response comes you cannot stop it yes yes how does it how does what fall into the realm of faith when you talk about I think that we've gone along with this thinking responding

[54:50]

impulse and then it seems to me what you said almost yesterday something that I think faith is when you hear a word faith is is to you know it's hard it's a circle it's hard to say which happens first does the chicken peck first or the chick peck first but anyway faith is the the arrival of the energy that's faith and faith is the response to that arrival of energy faith is what the chick does and faith is what the mother does what the chicken does they're both that's both faith you look like that doesn't make sense to me where what comes from faith faith it just says here is a natural outflow of reality so if somebody goes

[55:50]

see yes faith is experience yeah faith is your experience right and faith is my saying that that's right so the way reality is seems to be anyway when when something happens particularly like a word which seems to be if you talk about the word sitting out there it doesn't it isn't exactly a a living being it seems but anyway a word provides something that a person can respond to naturally when a human being hears a word you respond your response is faith because reality responds to the word and when you respond something else happens that's reality too that dynamic both of them are faith all of it is faith

[56:51]

that's why it says this realm this realm of suchness can only be entered by faith I like what's being said now further answering my question from before my energy that I was feeling was I felt like a real starvation at a point talking where you would say either I don't know or or you would say or just I was really hungry for some kind of experiential element into the dialogue I was feeling very I was like I was floating away on Buddha nature talk I like this now we're talking about experience that's what I was feeling so many varied faces

[58:07]

do you see any me? do you see any me? do I see being? I don't know what that means anymore I see you huh? huh? now please forgive me for making you sick today this medicine

[59:17]

that's what happens when you serve the Buddha now I want to say something to recover from my great sins of this terrible lecture may our intention

[60:21]

be fully emanated every being and place with the true care of the great spiritual and sacred beings may we continue harmonious the may we be Needs are countless. I vow to awaken them.

[61:24]

Illusions are insoluble. I vow to awaken them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. The world's way is unpatchable. I vow to become it.

[61:53]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ