This morning I would say that my ultimate concern is to understand, to realize the Buddha's teaching of dependent core rising and to have this understanding of the Buddha's teaching realized throughout the world, being a kind of incredible, inconceivable hope that the entire world would understand the Buddha's teaching, and the entire world would become Buddha's teaching. that all beings would become the Buddha way.

[01:01]

So I'm working with you in these talks and with you individually and in my own meditation to realize the reality of dependent core rising. and the insubstantiality of all phenomena, trusting that such realization is the source of great compassion. So in my mind there sometimes occurs a linear picture, a linear and circular picture of the process of realizing Buddha's Way, which I drew on the board for you and spoke of with you and will continue to speak of with you.

[02:34]

And I'm working with Gail, who's calligraphing this picture. So at the end of the session you can all take home a picture of the image that I've been talking about of the cycle of the interdependence of bodhisattva precepts and upright sitting and wisdom and compassion. And I like the picture because it's kind of nice to be able to see some kind of coherent picture of how practice might arise. And I think some other people appreciate the picture. And I think there's some truth to the picture, but another side of practice is not so simple as a nice little circle like that.

[03:39]

Several years ago, a woman was thinking of becoming ordained a priest here." And I said, why don't you talk to the other priest and see if you really want to get ordained. So you have to talk to him about what it's like to get... She wanted me to be her teacher, to train her as a priest. And I said, why don't you talk to some of the other priests to see what it's like for them and see if you really want to do it. So she did and she came back and she said, well, I talked to many of the priests and they don't seem to know what priest training is. And I said, well, yeah, that makes sense. That's why they're in priest training. They don't know what it is. They're finding out something about what it is. And then she said, well, listening to them talk, it sounds like priest training is like a maze. And I said, mm-hmm, yeah, it's like a maze.

[04:48]

Then you could also call it a labyrinth. It's not a clear circle or a straight line necessarily, although it sometimes looks like that. It's like a labyrinth. You know, in a labyrinth sometimes you find yourself in some alley and you don't know which way to go and you can't see very far. You're not sure if you're lost or found. Was I here before, or is this the place we're going, or the place we came from, or someplace in between?"

[05:53]

Socrates said, yeah, it's kind of like we feel like we're falling. We thought we were going forward, but our path seems to be looping back around on itself. And it's kind of like we find ourselves back at the beginning. And it's almost like we're no closer to the place we were going than we were at the start. One time I was helping Suzuki Roshi move rocks at Tatsuhara near his cabin. And that day we were moving one particular big rock. And it was a rock so big we weren't moving just with our hand, but we were using a tripod and a winch.

[07:06]

Winch. And the way you do that is you have a pulley system and then you have a winch and you crank the winch and the pulleys give you a mechanical advantage so you can actually, with the aid of these things, lift the big rock up off the ground. And then you connect the winch to the rock and you pull it off the center of the tripod a little bit maybe from a tree or something, and then you let the slack in the pulley that's holding it up go, and then it goes down from the place you lifted it over a few feet, and then you move the tripod and lift it up again and pull it another direction and let it down and it moves. Does that make sense? So you can move really big rocks that way.

[08:07]

So we did this with this rock. So he said, okay, let's move it over there. So we moved it over there like that. Okay, now move it over there, and we moved it over there. Now move it over there, and we moved it over there. Now move it over there, and we moved it over there. And then move it over here, and we moved it over there. Move it over there, and we moved it over there. And then after, at the end of work period, the rock was where we started. Now, of course, since the zikarishi was there, that was okay, right? But what if it wasn't Suzuki Roshi? What if it was just a work leader? Well, then maybe there's a little, you know, I think we should have a new work leader. I mean, beginner's mind's okay if the teacher's there, but like beginner's mind in the kitchen? Please. Like, you know, we're no closer to lunch than we were two hours ago? No. We can't allow that. this kind of labyrinthine situation and allowing practice to be that way is not easy to allow.

[09:25]

Because society that we live in is generally oriented towards progress and success. But generally speaking in Zen, success is failure. and failure is success. Generally speaking, success is insanity and failure is enlightenment. Generally speaking. I don't want to make a heavy rule of it, but that's generally so. Our society is, generally speaking, insane. Generally speaking, it's insane. And sanity is considered often to be insane. or in any way weird, sick, and so on. Truly insane people do not want to express themselves.

[10:27]

What they want to do is they want to convince others that they act, think, and feel appropriately. that they're normal, stable and healthy, trustworthy and ready for promotion, the best candidate for success. And these insane people do not take a chance of expressing themselves unless it will look really good or at least normal and appropriate. This attitude is really insane and it endangers everybody who wants to practice self-expression because these people, this attitude anyway, which sometimes we're that way, does not tolerate and, you know, will not face chaos, rage, and emptiness in our own heart.

[11:35]

And anybody else who's facing it is potentially considered crazy or mad or at least unreliable and not part of the crew. If people are not interested in studying dependent core arising and if they don't feel how dependent core arising is pervading their body If they see someone who's enthusiastic about learning to see dependent co-arising in the world, and is enthusiastic about learning to see how the world is dependently co-arising, if they see such a person, they'll think that person's crazy. That person's endangered by people who do not want to study, who do not want to express themselves.

[12:48]

Practicing Zen, practicing upright sitting is the stage upon which we begin to learn self-expression. Self-expression is not normal or abnormal. It's just what you have to express. It's just yourself. But it's dangerous in a society that's oriented to look normal, look appropriate, rather than be authentic. If you're quiet and present, that's the basis for dramatic self-expression.

[13:57]

And when you express yourself, you are vulnerable because it's you that you're expressing yourself rather than a fake. If you express a fake, no danger. when we're still, we can feel more and more our own authentic impulses. I hesitate to say true because it's not really true, it's just my own. It's just my own, my own poor little idea, feeling, action.

[15:02]

not right or wrong. It's just a kind of reality. It's just dependent co-arising. That's all. But there it is. Now, am I going to be expressed or not? Am I going to act out or not? If I act out, It might be weird. It might not be liked. But if it's not liked, or if it is liked, either way, am I acting not just to express myself, but to see the pinnacle arising in this expression? If so, if people don't like it, that's just as informative as if they do.

[16:12]

But what's my motivation? Not just to express myself, but to dramatize the Buddhist teaching. To see if my speech and my actions can be a place for me and you to see the Pentagon rising. What if I don't see it? Well, that's too bad. How about trying again? This is about... This is, you know... I said, if you're enthusiastic about expressing yourself in the effort to see dependent core arising, to learn to see it, you will be considered mad. But if you're half-hearted, you won't be considered mad. Just a little weird. But if you're enthusiastic, you're really in danger. If you keep it really, really, really tiny, tiny, tiny little bit, then people won't mind at all.

[17:23]

But if you're enthusiastic about trying to express yourself with the... not just to express yourself even for your own selfish reasons, but to express yourself in order to understand how this expression is the dependent co-arising of the world, that's going to look weirder than just simply being selfish. Because being selfish, again, you can express yourself fully with the intention to look good. You can express yourself fully with the intention to appear to be normal. to appear to be appropriate. That's a kind of full self-expression, but it's not the full self-expression which is done to dramatize interdependence. That's unusual. And doesn't promote the status quo. And doesn't necessarily accomplish anything either. Oftentimes it seems to be it didn't get anywhere.

[18:25]

Because basically you're always doing the same thing. It's hard. It's dangerous. What's it got going for it? Well, it's alive. What's it got going for it? Well, it's beauty. Beauty. The other day I wore my new robe I ordered. You see it? The classy gray one. And afterwards, one of the monks said, boy, that's a beautiful robe. Is it new? And I said, uh-huh. And then...

[19:31]

And then later, a little bit later, I said, am I a drag queen? And she didn't say much. But then a little bit later, she came up to me. She came up to me and said, no, you're not a drag queen because you don't have the hair and the makeup. But, you know, I felt kind of hurt because, you know, isn't this a reasonable haircut for a drag queen? I mean, do we have to, do drag queens never have shaved heads? Well, they do sometimes. You know? They do. Well, here, I am a drag queen. This is a, and I don't have to wear some special limited idea of what kind of makeup to wear. Anyway, a little bit later, I didn't say that during the time, I just felt, you know, put in my place. You think you're a drag queen? Oh, yeah? What does it take to be a drag queen? You know, who's in charge? Isn't a pretty gray dress enough?

[20:42]

Anyway, later this monk wrote me a letter and she said, maybe I should apologize to you. She said, it's okay. Well, actually I have the card. First of all, she gave me a nice present too, some plums. I love salt plums, Japanese salt plums. She gave me some presents. Then she said, I hope I didn't offend you by asking you about your robe. I was trying to express my appreciation. Then she said, anyway, you're allowed to look beautiful. As a matter of fact, then she said, it's part of your job. Yeah, but, you know, if I look beautiful, I'm going to get in trouble. People say, oh, look at him, he thinks he's so beautiful, his new dress, yeah. How much did that cost? You know, people come up to you and say, you know, they come up to you and say stuff like, not to say that anyone says this to me, of course, but people come up to you and say, oh, you look so nice today, you make us all feel ugly.

[22:06]

I wish we had enough money to dress like that." Or, you know, what was that? But more straightforward would be, you know, you look really good. Who do you think you are dressing better than me? This can happen to you if you look beautiful. It can happen to you. If you express yourself, if you express yourself with the intention through that expression to help you see. If you express yourself to see the pentacle arising, that's your motivation. If you take a chance to express yourself, to open up and show who you are, you make yourself vulnerable. And in the vulnerability of that self-expression, beauty can come to you. And when beauty comes to you, If you meet it, you become beautiful, not just for yourself, but for others.

[23:15]

Some people are quite beautiful, kind of just generally kind of beautiful. They're called the beautiful people. Okay? But the lights go on when they open up, you know, and just show who they are. Like I know this girl, you know, she's kind of beautiful. But generally speaking, she has the lights off. But when she expresses herself, it is, you know, it's awesome. One time she was sitting at the dinner table, you know, eating some food and her face was down near the food, you know. So I put my hand on her back to straighten her up. And usually she wouldn't let me. Usually it's like trying to straighten a turtle. But anyway, this time, you know, I pressed on the turtle's back, and the turtle's back went straight, you know, and the head came up like a great flower, you know, unfolding. And she said, geez, the table's a long ways away.

[24:20]

And there she sat, you know, like a Zen mistress, just like, you know, so tall at the table, so beautiful. It's not easy to sit up like that because people will say, who do you think you are being so beautiful? I'm just trying to express myself. But when you do, really, you're vulnerable to attack. And those who do not let themselves be infused with the Pentecostal rising and do not feel their body infused with the Pentecostal rising, they may not like you to express yourself with that spirit. They don't want to see your beauty. An ordinary person who's not, you know, so-called one of the beautiful people, when an ordinary person takes this chance

[25:28]

from, you know, where they're sitting. They know where they are and they're aware. When they take this chance and they express themselves, they become beautiful. But right in their beauty, they are vulnerable right at that time. And they do, they do sometimes get attacked right where they're being beautiful. As a matter of fact, they sometimes get attacked because the person who's attacking them thinks that they're so beautiful that certainly they know it and they could be attacked and they'd be all right because they still know they're beautiful. Because, you know, when you know you're beautiful, well, who cares if you get attacked? Which do you want to be? nothing, ugly, dead, and never get attacked?

[26:33]

Or the dependently coerced beauty of the universe at this place and get attacked? Some people aren't sure. The insane, no, forget this attack business. Forget beauty. Just look normal. Just look okay, and the self will not be attacked. And also, you won't have to look at any of your problems. You won't have to have any problems. You don't look at them long enough, you don't have any. And anybody who's got them, you know what to do with those people. Crush them. They don't deserve to live. They aren't normal. Not to mention that the people that you most likely choose are the few courageous ones or foolish ones that are so interested in realizing the truth and beauty that they give it a try.

[27:46]

Coming to a sashin is pretty good. That's fairly weird. For some of the people in this room, it's kind of an outrageous thing to do. Now, we have people here in the sashin that are from, you know, like bona fide suburbs. You know? regular middle-class people, you know, and they come from a place where what they're doing is weird. Now, I live here, you know, for me to be weird would be go to suburbs. If I went to the suburbs, like I actually went to the suburbs one time, and I went into Safeway, and somebody who knew me from Zen Center came up to me and said, are you all right? You know, just imagine seeing me in Safeway. You know, are you lost? Did you get kicked out of Zen Center? But some of the people in this room, the weirdest thing they do is this session.

[28:59]

If they tell their friends that you sat there and suffered for one week, what's going on with you? Well, you know, I don't know. I don't know. So are you expressing yourself enthusiastically when you sit still and quiet? Is that an effort to understand the dependent core, to see dependent core arising in the world and to see the world as dependent core arising? And is your expression to aid that study, and is your expression authentically you? Is what you say and is the posture as you do, and is what you think authentically you?

[30:01]

Or is it half you, a safe half or a safe third? I mean, you know, there's some people in this room, you know, they're not what some of us would like them to be. I mean, what they would think to say and do is not necessarily our favorite thing for them to say or do. So one-third of that is better than 100%. So they do one-third, like, you know, some people have some habits which we don't like, some ways of behaving we don't like, you know, that we think are not appropriate. So they get the message, you know, okay, if you have to express yourself a little, that's okay, but, you know, don't do it all the way. So they say, well, I say, what should I do?

[31:05]

What should I do? Should I do all the whole thing or just part, you know? Got to do a little, otherwise I'm going to really freak. Now, some people don't do any. And I alluded to that on Sunday. Some people don't give themselves any time to express, you know. And that leads to tremendous eventual violence and or drugging themselves. I think that thing went off. Did the sound go off in the background? So I could say, well, of course none of us are going to do something really violent, right? But it all depends on how much of ourselves we're crushing. It's not that we're violent people, but that violence is created by suppressing, depenagorizing. That's all. We push down reality and it will fight back.

[32:07]

Sometimes it waits for quite a while, but it eventually blows up. Or, if you push it down, inject chemicals into it to soften, you know, to reduce the vitality. Or to entertain the inner vision of dramatic expression. Then it's okay, too. You following this? That make sense to you? Maybe that's enough for me. This is the part of the chart, okay? Being upright, practicing non-thinking, and self-expression as a way to enter into understanding dependent core rising. So here you are, sitting in the midst of activity, sitting in the middle of all your pain, sitting in the middle of all your emotions, your impulses to move, You're concerned for how much longer the sashin's going to last. You're concerned for what's for lunch.

[33:10]

Whatever. You're concerned for the welfare of all beings. Anyway, all this stuff's happening all around. Tremendous activity. Love and hate all around you, and you're sitting in the middle of it. You're sitting very nicely in the middle of it. You got that down, pretty much. Now do you see that this sitting is an action? and that this action is dependent co-arising in action. Do you see that? And when I say see it, and I say maybe think about it. Think about what you're doing in terms of dependent co-arising. I don't mean think abstractly. I mean think with your body. So, Dogen Zenji says, you know, or not Dogen Zenji says, but Dogen Zenji quotes this story. Got a Zen master sitting, sitting really still.

[34:13]

And a monk says, what kind of thinking is going on there with this Zen master? What kind of thinking is going on for Buddha? And Buddha says, thinking of unthinkableness, thinking of what doesn't think. And the monk says, how do you sit there still and think of what doesn't think? And he says, non-thinking. So non-thinking is that you sit here in the midst of everything that's happening and you think And you think in the middle of that thinking, in an unattached, free expression way. The non-thinking that's going on is the vitality of your thinking.

[35:25]

The non-thinking is the vividness and vitality of your thinking. It's not the thinking. It's the activity of the thinking. It's the allowing the thinking to be whatever it is. It's the permission for your thinking to be what it is. It's the compassion to let you be the way you are. And with that kind of thinking, your thinking, your feeling, your speech and your posture is allowed to be what it is, is allowed to express itself.

[36:35]

Without that kind of thinking, without realizing that kind of thinking, the thinking is always monitoring itself. The thinking is always trying to control itself. Our thinking is acting on behalf of the society which wants us to behave properly. This is going on. But inside of that, is some spirit of enthusiasm to understand how things are happening and more interest in letting them happen than making them happen a certain way, more interested in how they are than what they could be, more interested in how they are and how they're happening rather than getting them under control. That's non-thinking. And if you have that attitude, that attitude will let the thinking, the feeling, the acting and the speaking, or let it try anyway to learn to fully express itself.

[37:39]

And in these attempts that we make, we get hurt and praised. Hurt and praised. Good, good, good. Keep it up. I hate it when you do that. And those aren't the worst things we hear. This is a session. In the beginning, you know, I worked on the guidelines with the Eno, and we said at the beginning, please be silent and still. I mean that. Please. But I mean be silent and still so that you can do something really dramatically expressive of who you are in this week and in the rest of your life. The point of the silence and stillness is so you can speak and act authentically, so you can bring reality into the world

[38:54]

So you can transform the world into a place where people can also do the same. And when I say that, you know, part of me is afraid of everyone starting to just totally run around the room wearing more clothes than usual, or less. Part of me is afraid of servers spilling a little gomasho. Or somebody not bowing before they pass the gomasho. Or someone doing something even a little bit more creative than that, perhaps. Perhaps someone will miss a period of meditation and go singing wildly in the mountains without any clothes on. Perhaps someone will go swimming in the ocean Perhaps someone will punch me in the nose. Perhaps I'll duck.

[39:57]

Perhaps I won't. Who knows what will happen if people start expressing themselves. I don't. And if I think about it, I get scared. So I don't think about it. I just... invite and encourage but try not to let my mind think about what might happen because then I won't be inviting and encouraging for very long but this is I actually think this is the way to see beauty and enact beauty in this life I think this is what's necessary I also if I think about it I think I'm going to get in trouble for saying this So I don't think about the trouble I'm going to get into for saying this. Even right here during this session, the trouble I'm going to get into for this. Because if I think about it, I'll hold back.

[41:02]

I won't be honest. I mean, not completely, but a little bit. So anyway, I have, you know, I'm still going through these, I've still been going through these New York, old New Yorkers to recycle them. So I'm running into very, many, many cartoons which apply, but I'm going to stop now and not tell you all those good jokes. I will post them eventually over time. But the, you know, old New Yorkers are dependently co-arising with my talks and my talks are dependently co-arising with old New Yorkers. So what I did today was, you know, this is my attempt to do what I'm talking about. This is my attempt to express myself and to say I'm asking you to do the same.

[42:08]

I would like you to, as best you can, from sitting in the middle, from being vitally vigorously alive while you're quiet, what do you have to say? What do you have to show? What do you have to express? Can you see the pinnacle rising in the world? Is there anything you want to express now? This is a good time. Taiko, do you have something to express? Yes. Oh, what is it? Sometimes there's not only the threat of physical violence, but sometimes there is. Yes, that's right. And that hurts. Yes. And I know that sometimes I have not expressed myself and felt okay about my state physically.

[43:11]

Yes. Yes. Yeah. If there's some very big animal nearby, and you have a feeling, like, I would really like to express such and such, but that animal might hurt me if I do. What do I do there? Well, maybe get farther away from the animal, express it from a distance, so you have a head start. I'll report back. I think Martha was first.

[44:12]

I'm not sure. Sometimes, at such a hard time, And the day it came up again, you know, this, the language is, it's a, this feeling about when you use a language like this, it's insane, and it's packed, and dead, and, you know, I feel like the data was strewn with these poor, normal people. Dying, dead. And there's a way to look back on it. I think we're home another lecture on the practice of the normal person, the woundedness of a normal person, the expression that, you know, are they the same? In fact, that is near for us once more consciously, because I don't know, I don't understand the dismissal of what appears to be normal, which may be actually a full expression of something. It appears to be you or it appears to be somebody.

[45:14]

Am I not dead, appropriate, and that's How do you know that that's not a foolish question? If we saw somebody, and you and I saw somebody, and you said, okay, look at that person over there, doesn't that look like a normal person? And I might say, I guess so. I guess you think so, huh? And you say, yeah. Now, are you telling me that that person is crazy? And I say, well, not necessarily. We can go check. Let's go talk to the person. And maybe in the conversation we find out that this person, inside, what they're primarily concerned with is making you and I think they're normal. We might find that out. It's possible. If I find that out, that that's what they're doing, then I might say, now let's check further, Martha. Let's you and I see if this person would allow us to be like we are. I mean, excuse me for saying so, but let's see if they'll let me be like I am because, you know, you don't seem to have any problem.

[46:17]

Nobody thinks you're weird, I guess. No, yeah. But nobody wants to punch you, so I'll just start... I'll just... So I'll just see if this person will let me be me, you know. And so he might find out that they're actually quite tolerant of me. That, you know, if I start telling him about my, you know... some of my rage or some of my chaos in my life, that they seem to do well with it. Then I would say, well, this is not a crazy person. They seem to be rather bland, but they also seem to be unafraid of me being this kind of weird person. Then I'd say, that's not... But if they look normal and we check on them and they seem to primarily be concerned with making other people think they're normal and appropriate... and they're tolerant of people who aren't that way, then I would say this is kind of an unusual healthy person.

[47:19]

It's kind of unusual. I have not met anybody myself who's really concerned with, like, what they're primarily concerned with is looking good so other people will think well of them, and they're not concerned about expressing themselves, but they're happy to let other people express themselves. I don't see that much, but it's possible. I'm open to the possibility. Usually if somebody won't let themselves express themselves, and they're primarily concerned with holding back themselves and putting out a self that looks good, they don't want other people to get a chance to do what they've denied themselves, usually. But if we checked and found that, I would say, this is really unusual. This would like, that would be unusual. So I don't... It's possible that, you know, sometimes a person can be fully expressing themselves and not trying to look good and look like what you and I might say, well, that's fairly normal. But, you know, it might be that person's day off from being the way they are a lot of other times.

[48:24]

They might be tired or sick. Like, I know this lady, you know, there's this lady at Zen Center several years ago, And like it or not, anyway, she expressed, I don't know exactly what she was up to, but the way she expressed herself did not look normal. I mean, people didn't say, no, she's normal. She was very expressive, and people had a lot of trouble with her. She could be seen doing things like banging on people's doors in the middle of night at Zen Center. Screaming, you know, let me in, let me in, this kind of thing was happening. She would do it on people's doors, several people's doors in one night. So this is not like what you call looking appropriate. People didn't think it was appropriate. She didn't even think it was appropriate, but she found herself doing it. One day, she came to Zen Center, and one of the senior monks opened the door, and she came in, and...

[49:27]

She seemed to be behaving, you know, according to this person's standards, kind of like appropriately for his end standard. She was moving calmly and quietly. She wasn't, you know, talking hysterically or banging on any doors or anything. And he said, you seem so calm and at ease today. Did anything happen? She said, yeah, I'm really sick. So for her... you know, that day she was still really expressing herself. She wasn't like holding back and trying to look good. She was just too sick to be the way she often was, which we did not consider, generally speaking, at Zen Center and most other places too. She was like kind of like really not necessarily looking appropriate most of the time. But she, in my view, is not insane. She's just trouble. But it's possible that a normal, very expressive, healthy person sometimes looks normal.

[50:30]

That is possible. That can happen. And so I wouldn't say, okay, that person's insane because they look normal or because they're fitting into the situation. I wouldn't say that, but I'm just saying. Yeah. Right. I'm not saying, yeah. I'm not saying that normal people are crazy. What I'm saying is that a person who wants to look normal is crazy. It's from the inside. Are you trying to look normal? And if you're trying to look normal, that's insanity. If you're not trying to express... To hold back your self-expression is insanity. That's what I'm saying. So some people's self-expression is... really bland. But they're not trying, and even in situations where everybody else is really snazzy, they're not.

[51:33]

And they get in trouble for it, and people tease them. But they don't then switch and start to be like what the other people were like. They keep being bland. And you know the story, many stories from high school, so-and-so was bland, and they grew up to be Abraham Lincoln or something, right? Because they didn't submit and start dressing like people said a drag queen looks. They went to the drag queen competition with a shaved head, and they lost every time. But they didn't buckle under to society's pressures, and society never did like them. But finally they developed a character, which people found rare and wonderful, a character of honesty, self-expression, and abnormality. So it's from the inside. Now, sometimes these people not only are that way, but look that way, like leaders of the country, generally speaking, are that way.

[52:35]

They develop a way to make people think, I'm stable. I'm healthy. I'm honest. I'm not a pervert. Vote for me. And then if they start to show that they're not that way, we get them. we pull them down. Then we find somebody who has managed to pull that off to look like they're normal and then we put them in their place. This is the society which is of the society in which there is tremendous violence. That's our society. Because the leaders and what is valued is to look a certain way. And those who are willing to deny themselves and fit into that form, or maybe one in a zillion actually are that way. I don't know. Maybe somebody is like all these things. It's possible. But mostly it's dishonesty. Most of us are... And I'm an example of that, right?

[53:39]

And so I get in trouble for it, right? Here's a nice lady, she's ready to punch me. Well, she used to be nice. Until she met me. Now she's ready to punch. So maybe, you know, she should take boxing lessons. That might be part of her thing. Actually, there's a little warrior in there that needs some training. How do you feel now, Martha? It's OK if you want to punch me, really. And I told you people, when I got married, my wife said, there's some rules. First rule is no hitting. I never hit her. But she gets to hit me. And I had trouble with the asymmetry of the relationship. But, you know, not everything's symmetrical.

[54:43]

How come she gets to be bothered by things that I don't get to be bothered by? That's just the way it is, you know? So, anyway, some of you, if you want to check, you know, I won't hit you, but you can hit me. But if anybody that's willing to allow me to hit back, I'd appreciate it. Kyoki? All this time, and I'm so smart, it seems to me that your full self-expression, you say, will give rise to phobia, and out of that, you'll come back, and it seems to me that... No, actually I don't. That's what I was working on with the chart with Gail. What I have is being upright and then training in full self-expression. learning full self-expression because you're right you can't have full self-expression before you understand interdependence before you understand dependent co-arising and non-insubstantiality and have bodhi before that you can't have full self-expression you're right so actually the way the chart goes is non-thinking

[56:15]

leads to training and learning full self-expression. And in the process of learning full self-expression, we enter into the realization of dependent core arising. And when that is understood, then comes full self-expression. Then full self-expression is perfectly in accord with great compassion and the precepts. Before we see clearly dependent core arising, our attempts at full self-expression will be a little off. But when they're off, then people come to help us and they say, I want to punch you. But sometimes when they're on, they also want to say they want to punch you. So you can't tell for sure. But anyway, you get feedback in your attempts and that's the dependent core rising. I try to express myself, you don't like it. I don't try to express myself, you don't like it. I express myself, you do like it. The interaction between your expression and the world, that is dependent core rising. And then sometimes you see how the interaction gives rise to the action.

[57:17]

The pentacle of rising gave birth to the action. You say, wow, now I see this action is not mine. And then you see how that works. And then you start to see how when the action is yours, how it works. All this you see in this attempt. So it isn't just the sitting quietly. You have to put it into action. You have to bring dependent core arising into your action in order to realize it with your body. So it isn't just up in your head. So a lot of people understand dependent core arising in their head. Now what I'm saying is put it into your speech and your physical posture. Try it out to get it into your body. Think it into your body by expressing it with your body and voice. And then you understand, really understand dependent core rising. And then true full self-expression, the real full self-expression will spontaneously emerge as compassion and the precepts. So yeah, so I changed the chart.

[58:22]

Because I looked at it and I said, no, it's not really full self-expression before Bodhi. Yes, Gary? I just wanted to clarify this. Did you say expressions of faith are safe? That's a nice, what do you call it, bumper sticker? Expressions of faith are safe. Did I say that? I thought so too. I didn't say it, but now let's think about it. Expressions of faith are safe. I would say that expressions of faith are not safe, but the way to go. But the what? But it's the way to go. The way to go. Yeah. Expressions of faith prior to Bodhi are trying to learn... YOU KNOW, FULL SELF-EXPRESSION. SO PART OF MY FAITH IS EXPRESS YOURSELF. TRY TO DO IT.

[59:24]

BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S AN ATTEMPT, BUT IT MAY NOT REALLY BE TRULY EXPRESSING THE PENTACLE OF RISING, BUT I'M TRYING TO. SO, BUT, AND IT'S NOT SAFE THOUGH BECAUSE, IN FACT, YOU GET NEGATIVE FEEDBACK IF YOU'RE OFF. If you're not balanced in your expression, if it's one-sided, either you're doing it by yourself or if you think other people are forcing you to do it, if you're doing it for other people or for yourself rather than together, it's off. So you learn by that. So if it were safe and you didn't get any negative feedback, you wouldn't learn. Now ultimately it's safe because if you don't try, you're doing the most unsafe thing, namely you're wasting your life. But if you try, there's going to be some bumps. You're going to get hurt if you try. And if you don't try, you take enough drugs, you may not notice you're getting hurt because you're so dead.

[60:29]

But if you try, there's going to be some rough spots. Yeah. Well, it's getting kind of late. Should we stop or should she ask the question? Okay, question. It comes out. It doesn't help them. It doesn't help anybody else. They fully express themselves, but it's not in any way that it really connects to their heart. You're saying a person fully expresses himself and doesn't connect to their heart? No, no. Because they're... They're not really quiet and still, and they just throw themselves into the pentacle right now.

[61:38]

They see it, and I think that there are some people who see it, but they just throw themselves into it. They don't have any way of stabilizing it. Throw themselves into it without a way to stabilize it. Well, that sounds like almost everybody I know. I mean, that's most people. In fact, we are in it. We're in it all the time. Everybody's independent core rising, and they're throwing themselves into it. And, you know, some people are throwing themselves into it and then resisting it, but we're all in it. And some people have realization of it. Because in the midst of dependent core arising, I would say because of doing certain things like being generous or being patient, people do have some realization of dependent core arising. But without training of the totality of our life, the realization is unstable.

[62:45]

Yes. I think that is the case. I think people in this room have realization of dependent co-arising, but it isn't thoroughly integrated in their whole being. Everybody's in it, and some people have realization. The point is to have enough realization so that not only do you feel encouraged by the teaching and feel like the beauty of the teaching is working, coming into your life and being expressed by your life, but you're also watching it and helping it happen in the world as a whole. And that seems to require a whole Sangha to help us do that and a whole Sangha to start with a Sangha to see if the teaching can start being realized in the Sangha. To see if the Sangha can let us be who we are and see if we can let the Sangha be who it is, be who they are. Do we really prefer for people to be who they are rather than be easy?

[63:48]

And when they try and give us who they are, which is sometimes really difficult, rather than be who they aren't, who's really easy, do we actually prefer that? And I think part of us kind of gulps and says, I'd rather have this than that easy person, but it is hard. You know, you're really hard on me. I try to keep breathing. This is what I believe in. I believe in who the person really is. That's really what I want. I don't want a fake person. Not only that, but the real person, I'm not even getting the real person yet. I'm getting sort of like their attempts to be the real person. It's hard. But you encourage that in yourself and others. If you do, I say you're working at making a community that promotes promotes the kind of expression that will enact and dramatize dependent core arising. But it's hard.

[64:51]

It's hard. And Patty actually had her hand raised quite a long time ago, and it's getting late, but I think maybe... What about someone who's angry and expresses themselves by harming people? What about that? You mean how to be with that person? Well, you know, assuming you're not a martial artist, it's good to keep it some distance so you don't get your body hurt. Like, you know, maybe this is far enough, unless they're really a fast runner. So I would say keep some distance and maybe also, like, make a rule, no hitting. So basically, they're up to beat you, but you have a rule called no beating. And then you say, like my wife said, if you hit me, I'll still love you, but I'll be out of here right away. And if they won't respect that kind of guideline, you might make more distance.

[65:55]

But in your heart, you may really prefer for them to be this abusive person than to sort of pretend like they're somebody else. Because it's only by working with who they are that we're going to be able to set them free. But that doesn't mean you have to get so close that they're going to punch you and that you're going to forget what you really care about because you're getting punched and your body starts saying, hey, stop this person. You can only stop people for a little while. But if you get some distance, you can let them run around and do their thing and they'll learn. That's what you're there to help them. You know, say, how does that feel there? How you doing over there punching everybody out and getting punched back? Did you like it? You know? Or the other way would be practice martial arts and get right in there with them and, you know, but don't get hurt. You know, don't get injured. So like, what's his name? The founder of judo. His name, you know, judo means the gentle way.

[66:57]

He was on a, what do you call it, a ship. And it was this huge guy. It was in the Indian Ocean. This huge guy was going up and down the, the deck, you know, pushing people around, you know, and endangering them. And he came up to this little Japanese man. His name was Jigaro Kano. And he came up and pushed him, and the judo teacher took this huge guy and threw him in the air, flipped him in the air, and put him right back down on his feet without hurting him. So the guy kind of got the message. What, you know, what's life about? At least for a moment he thought about it. So if you have that kind of skill, you can get in there and work with that energy. Because in Judo, you don't oppose the energy of the other person. You take their aggressive energy and you use their aggressive energy to teach them about energy. And you have enough skill handling their energy that you take their energy and put it around and back on them, hopefully without hurting them, so that they learn that that way of using energy is unskillful.

[68:08]

So that would be another way. But another way to teach people is to teach them by being farther away. So they see that what they're doing by their energy is they're destroying their connection with the people that they care about. That's another way to teach them. But the question is, in your heart, which do you prefer? The way people are? Or do you prefer for them to be a way that's easy for you? And I think sometimes we're not sure. And since we're not sure about that, we're not sure whether people want us to be the way we are or the way that's easy for them. So part of us wants to be, you know, why don't we just make it easy for people? Well, if you actually want to make it easy for people and that's who you are, then that's fine. But sometimes who you are is someone who has something to say. You really feel you have something to say, which is not necessarily easy for people to hear. Like, you know, I'm really upset.

[69:10]

I'm really, you know, I'm really depressed. I'm really uncomfortable. I'm really angry. These are things which are not necessarily easy for people to hear, but might be sort of where you're at. Do you tell them that, or do you say, well, I'm fine. Everything's fine. You know, I really liked that when you did that. That was okay. Rather than, no, it really bothered me when you did that. What do you know? So if you don't want other people to be who they are, then you kind of feel like, well, then how can I be who I am? But on the other hand, if you, I don't know which way you want to do it, if you really are willing for other people to be who they are, you might let yourself be who you are. They won't necessarily all say that it's okay for you to be who you are. People aren't telling me. People are not telling me I can be the way I am. They're not. Some people are. And when I am and they survive, they're very happy. People love it when I'm who I am and they find out that they can survive that.

[70:11]

But I don't get permission beforehand. I don't. The real permission comes from when I'm willing to let you be who you are. Then I give myself permission to be who I am. If I'm really willing to let you be who you are, then I might be able to be who I am. The most dangerous thing is not for other people to be who they are. It's for you to be who you are. So if you let abusive people be abusive people and you have a relationship with them so that you can allow them, which is distance probably, or skill, then you can allow yourself to be who you are and then other people can tell you to stop being that way. And then you can figure out what to do with that. It's basically all about self-expression, the whole thing about life. That's what it's all about, because that's in fact what it is. All day long is self-expression. That's the way to enter into Buddha's teaching. But of course, if you're not present and awake, you're not going to learn. You're not going to see the truth demonstrated when your self-expression

[71:14]

interacts with the self-expression of the whole universe and how you see that your self-expression is the self-expression of the whole universe. You've got to be awake to get the lesson. And of course it's hard to be awake when you're expressing yourself because it's so dangerous. We want to like, could I have somebody else express myself and I'd be somewhere else when it happens? So I can watch from a distance? You won't learn then. And also, nobody's going to operate the puppet. Okay? Okay, Paddy?

[71:47]

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