with his little story about, you've heard before maybe, it's a story about a person we call Shakyamuni Buddha. Briefly speaking, he practiced some yogic disciplines. And these disciplines, part of what he accomplished with the discipline was, in some sense, is to like stop, kind of like suppress his mental activity. He was able to like block out intellectual activity, first of all, by some of these states of absorption he entered. And he actually got into states where not only did he block out intellectual activity, but attained a state which can be attained by you folks, too, if you really wanted to, a state where actually perception and feeling were very attenuated.

[01:03]

So the mind is almost completely non-functioning. And some people mistake that state for nirvana, actually. So he... He was a very good yogi and he attained these states, but they weren't quite what he was looking for. He was looking for something that... He still was suffering. Even though he was in these states where nothing much was going on. Or when he was in these states, it's hard to know you're suffering because it's a little bit like being on heroin. I mean, when the heroin's working the way you like it to. It's a little bit like that, some of these states. But when he came out of them, he realized that they weren't really what he was looking for. Have you heard about this before, this kind of story? Huh? No?

[02:05]

Well, somebody heard something new then. The other thing that happened is that he, a little bit later, after he did that for a while, he had this experience which we call Great Awakening. this person we call Shakyamuni Buddha saw something or his mind started thinking in a way that nobody ever thought of before in the history of the world, as far as we know. There's no records of anybody thinking like that before, the way he thought. He was sitting under the Bodhi tree And suddenly, his mind decided to look at reality, or at least what he found to be reality. He actually looked at how things happened. And like I say, if you look at the history of Indian philosophy or Indian religion, Chinese religion, Middle Eastern religion, you don't find anybody having a vision like this.

[03:17]

prior to him. He woke up from, it's like, in some sense, you know, you could get dramatic about this, he woke up from one world to another world. This world had never been seen before by a human being. He saw it. And from then on, our world has been changed because he opened a door to another way of being alive on this planet. Namely, a way of seeing and thinking about how things happen, actually. He saw the truth of dependent co-arising, paticcasamutpada, and this became his main teaching. He woke up to this, and his waking up was this. This was his waking up.

[04:20]

The contents of his awakening under the Bodhi tree was his person, just like us, except he was thinking about how things dependently co-arise instead of how things are substantially existing. Before him, people used to think of things substantially existing. And even religious systems were reiterating this basic human attitude that things are substantial. But he thought about things differently, and this was his bodhi, this was his wisdom. As a result of this wisdom, by the nature of this wisdom of understanding how everything is interdependent and how things interdependently appear and disappear, as a result of seeing how everything happens depending on other things and also how everything stops happening depending on other things,

[05:34]

Each of us happen depending on other things and also each of us stop happening. We cannot be born alone and we actually couldn't die alone either. If it weren't for the help of everybody else we wouldn't be able to change or die. He saw this and because of this he wanted to teach other people what he saw. In other words, as I said on Sunday, as it says in the Lotus Sutra, The thing that makes the Buddha appear in the world is the desire to open people's eyes to this wisdom, to this bodhi. So he wanted to open people's eyes to the bodhi, to the way of thinking of dependent core rising. He wanted to let people see into the contents of his wisdom And he was apparently somewhat successful, had quite a few disciples apparently, actually quite a few who actually were able to adopt this way of life where you have now, you'd actually develop a steady pattern, a steady diet,

[07:01]

a steady meditation on how things are happening rather than spending our time trying to get substantial things to go the way we'd like them to and having some success and some failure at that. But dropping that mode and switching to the new mode of what's happening, meditating on what's happening. So, is there a bird out the window or something? Is something happening out there? Is something delightful happening out there? Or is something, huh? Okay. So, someone could say something like this, and by the way I want to say parenthetically that in my foraging for the Middle Way, Am I thrashing about to discuss the middle way with you?

[08:03]

Please excuse me if, you know, if it's somewhat upsetting and your worldview gets pushed a little bit. Particularly if your practice view gets pushed a little bit. I don't mean intentionally push it, but part of what happens when you hear dharma is you get turned a little bit and that someone's disorienting. So you might hear some dharma, and that might be disorienting. I don't mean to disorient you, but that might happen, so don't worry if that happens too much. I mean, don't worry too much if it happens. So I proposed to you that I had a little bit different perspective. I asked some people what their ultimate concern was, and one person told me that It was liberation. And I, you know, I feel myself, you know, if someone asked me what my ultimate concern is, I think many times I might have said liberation. There's something deeply moving about the word liberation to me.

[09:11]

But in a way, you might say that the goal of Buddhism or the purpose of Buddha's way is not liberation for the practitioner, but wisdom. wisdom by which you can practice great compassion. Thinking that Buddhism is about liberation is thinking about Buddhism from the point of view of a deluded person. When we believe in our independent self, it's natural that we would yearn to be liberated from that independent self, because it's so uncomfortable to be an independent self. And in fact, if we were liberated from independent self, that would be swell, but the thing is that it's a little bit weird to talk about being liberated from something that isn't really substantially there.

[10:15]

And if it was substantially there, you wouldn't be able to get liberated from it. So liberation really doesn't make sense in a way. It's not really the issue because it's more like wisdom. When you have wisdom, when you realize wisdom, then liberation is not an issue anymore because there's nothing to get liberated. It's more like if you understand yourself rather than to liberate yourself, Because again, once more if your self isn't really there then liberation doesn't make sense and if it is there, liberation doesn't make sense. So any existential status that we would normally be able to attribute to the self by which we would then want to liberate that self that's off. The way the self actually exists doesn't need to be liberated. The way the self really is is love. It's just a loving thing.

[11:18]

And no need to be liberated from that. So Buddha doesn't really want us to be liberated. Buddha wants us to be wise so we can be greatly compassionate which then means we work for other people to become wise and so on. It's a little bit different perspective. I propose that to you and don't take it as you know too heavily. I was going to say, don't take it as gospel, but actually it is gospel. It's not like, don't make it heavy, okay? Lightly receive that change of perspective in case you thought Buddhism was about liberation. It's about awakening, liberation, I mean, wisdom. Another thing I'd like to point out, I mentioned to you at the beginning, is that Bodhi, wisdom, is not, and you've heard this before, I think, somewhat, Bodhi is not something that is, what do you call it, in the realm of perception.

[12:27]

You know, like on noon service you say, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, [...] and all this, by the way, is not a conscious experience. All this does not appear within the realm of perception. You know that part? In the self-fulfilling samadhi? Is that familiar? Can you say it? Right? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All this is not a mental experience. Pardon? Say it. does not appear within the realm of perception. Why did you say, Lee? A mental experience. It's not a mental experience. Wisdom is not a mental experience. Bodhi is not a mental experience. The way everything is interdependent is not a mental experience. And yet, you can think about it the way things are.

[13:29]

And the Buddha did, and that's wisdom. But you can attain the way of being which is wisdom. You can be that way. And that way is actually also a kind of consciousness or an awareness. But it's an awareness which is, you know, latent. It's not perceptual awareness. It's not ordinary consciousness that you like have subject-object thing with. And the way to realize that bodhi and great compassion and this way of existing in the world is by first of all cultivating an awareness of the way things happen the way things are happening and gradually

[14:56]

gradually settle into an awareness of what you might call, well, let's just call it for today, pratice samapada, gradually settle into a steady awareness of dependent core arising. That's the way you realize bodhi. That's the way you realize Buddha's wisdom. And this involves being aware of how things are interdependent and how things lack a graspable substance that's involved in this cultivation, in this way of thinking. I don't know if I can say it again. What would you like me to say? Lacks... As you cultivate this awareness, as you develop this way of thinking, you're thinking about dependent co-arising, how things are dependently co-producing each other.

[16:07]

And this involves that all the elements in the causal process lack graspable substance. Okay? So that's just to kind of like... That's kind of like... some talk now let's see it is hands are being raised now but before hands are raised I want to say a little bit more okay now here we have whatever people there are here who are trying to follow the schedule and so on and go to the zendo and meditate and some people are doing practices well like at least one person is trying to follow her breath That's your practice. And that's fine. And Shakyamuni Buddha actually sometimes recommended to people to follow their breath. And he himself did that practice.

[17:10]

But following the breath isn't necessarily what's going on in the mind of Buddha. Although Buddha could follow his breath, it wouldn't be a problem. there's two ways I would like to mention that you might be following your breath. One way to follow your breath is to follow your breath, the conscious breath, with the intention to create concentration by such an exercise. So following the breath can be a concentration practice. And in this set of concentration practices, by which Shakyamuni Buddha did, which yogis do, to try to block out their mental functioning, and go into trances where their intellectual function is suppressed, and then finally, ultimately, feeling and perception are even suppressed. One of the techniques for suppressing the mind, stopping the mind, so to speak, is following the breath. It can be a concentration practice.

[18:17]

Okay? Traditionally, there's 40 of them, 40 different objects to do this with, and following the breath is one of them. And following the breath is... There's other good things, too. For example, if you're worried or agitated, the volume of breath tends to quell the worry and agitation. So it's also, besides being able to project you into a full trance, it can basically be kind of sedative qualities. or sometimes we call bomb shelter practice. Take you down below the ground where it's quieter and where the bombs don't bother you anymore. Another way to follow the breath, which the Buddha taught, is meditating on the breath as part of mindfulness of body. So you can also follow your breath as a mindfulness practice.

[19:20]

And there it's a little bit different. So as a concentration practice, you try to focus your mind on the breathing. As a mindfulness practice, you're simply aware of what the breath is doing. So you know. The breath is going to Cleveland. The breath is short. The breath is long. The breath is rough. The breath is smooth. You just know your breath. You're just aware and mindful of how your breath's going. You're not necessarily trying to create a state of concentration. Now, of course, you have to be somewhat concentrated to be able to be mindful. If you have no concentration, you would have no mindfulness. And you can, for example, now we're down to kosha, they teach mindfulness of, first of all, there's precepts. Then there's mindfulness of the breath as a concentration practice. And then you go smoothly from mindfulness of breath as a concentration practice into mindfulness, excuse me, concentration on breath as a concentration practice into mindfulness of breath as the first of the mindfulness practices.

[20:32]

It's the beginning of wisdom. Okay? So, it's perfectly fine to be, if you want to like follow the Buddha way, it's fine to do concentration practices. It's fine to develop confidence in your concentration. You can concentrate on your breath. And you can also, once you feel fairly concentrated, you can just be mindful of your breath and start to develop awareness of not just focusing on your breath, but awareness of what the breath is. Not just like tethering yourself to the breath, holding the breath, and clinging to the breath to concentrate yourself and ground yourself, but also, what is it? How does it function? What kind of breath is this? This is gradually your mindfulness of the breath, which is... a possible door to meditating on not just mindfulness of breath, but what the breath is.

[21:35]

And as you meditate on what breath is, breath is part of the phenomenal world. And the way that breath happens in the phenomenal world is the same way, basically is very similar to the way rain falls and glaciers move and people burp. and bells ring. It's another phenomenal thing. And the way it happens is by dependent co-arising. Breath is a dependent co-arising. So meditation on breath is a perfectly good example of a phenomenal event that dependently co-arises. And if you can understand and think about how it dependently co-arises, you are starting to actually realize the Bodhi of the Buddha. So in order to meditate on this,

[22:48]

fabulous thing called the Pentagon Horizon. You don't have to necessarily direct your mind away from your current meditation objects, like carrots, pots of steaming vegetables, sewers, spines, knees, breath, and so on, or yogi sets, you don't have to look at something special. The phenomenal world is always right before you, all around you. All you've got to do is clearly observe how things are coming to be. And you'll be cultivating an authentically and traditionally enlightening practice. So maybe that's enough of an introduction for today.

[23:52]

And now Erin would like to ask a question. It might be just a definition, but I don't understand how when it's beyond reception, and then for that, it's different awareness. Well, how not within their own perception is different from mindfulness? You're saying that it's not within their own perception, but yet by using awareness of codependent co-arising. Okay, so she's saying somebody says that this realm of wisdom... is not an object of perception. And your question is, how does mindfulness operate there? Is it different? You say it's beyond the realm of perception, yet you're practicing awareness and mindfulness at the same time.

[25:00]

To me it sounds like you're saying they're different. In my mind they sound the same. Awareness is perception. So Aaron's feeling like awareness is part of perception. Interesting? Awareness is part of perception. Well, there are awarenesses that are going on that are not perceptual. Perceptual, like, you know, you can perceive like sensory perceptions. You can see colors and hear sounds and things like that. So let's see now. So I guess what I'm proposing to you is that there's a kind of awareness that is not known to you now, but that's going on for your life.

[26:19]

Not known at any level? Well, it's known at its own level, but it's not up in the room right now in the realm of Aaron and Reb and Rain. But we can talk about it, and we are. And we can access it and realize it. And it is a realm, it is a realm, that awareness lives in, is intimate with the realm of the way things are actually happening, which we can't ordinarily see, and which are not ordinarily interested. We're interested often in the way things are independent of each other. And independent things are the things we usually perceive. Like I don't usually perceive the interdependence of Aaron.

[27:30]

And you don't usually perceive the interdependence of Reb. What you perceive is the independent thing, Reb. And you do that by the process of perception. You make, out of the world, you make an independent thing standing up all by itself called Reb. That's a perception you can have. Or independent thing called Reign, which is independent of not Reign. Now, intellectually, you may know that, of course, rain and not rain depend on each other. But you don't perceive that interdependence so much. You perceive the rain and not the rain. Just a second. So, is this doing anything for you? Yeah. I guess I just feel that I can't perceive. You think you can perceive interdependence? Yeah. You can feel it.

[28:42]

You can sense it, yeah. So it can be a sensory perception. You can perceive a thing called interdependence. You can perceive interdependence made into a thing. That's right. Interdependence is not a thing you can perceive. But, although you can't perceive it, you can think about it. And the Buddha thought about it. As a matter of fact, wisdom is that you think, ladies and gentlemen, about what you can't perceive. You are conscious. I mean, you are conscious. Okay, let me say this again, okay? Wisdom is to think about what you can't perceive.

[29:44]

Wisdom is to think about what you can't, what is unthinkable. Nobody can think about, can actually perceive, or maybe I should say wisdom is to think about what is imperceptible. Like an old translation of that self-fulfilling samadhi was imperceptible mutual assistance. And that was one of the people's ultimate concern. Her ultimate concern in life was imperceptible mutual assistance. And she said that was her ultimate concern. Another way to put it, which somebody else could, somebody else needs an ultimate concern, here's another one for you, which you can either copy hers, or here's another one for you, to realize The imperceptible mutual assistance. The imperceptible mutual assistance is, I would say, a nice translation of the pinnacle of rising.

[30:48]

We cannot perceive how we're mutually assisting each other, ladies and gentlemen. We can think about it. We can have like a nice, we can have like a little, what do you call it, pint-sized story of how we imperceptibly mutually assist each other. And that might be something which would deeply touch your heart and might even give you goosebumps. It's a lovely idea that we would be imperceptibly mutually assisting each other. And you can feel that, you can perceive it, you can sense it. Like I can sort of see, kind of like, well, he didn't actually do anything directly to help me, but he kind of did, you know, sort of. I kind of felt like, and I, you know, he, I actually saw him do something to help me, plus there was some other stuff he did to help me, which I kind of feel that he did to help me, but I can't really say. Or I kind of feel like maybe he told somebody something nice about me, and then they did something for me. You can do these kinds of things and that feels good to think about them. And sometimes you hear, like somebody came to me and told me one time, he said, you don't know how helpful you are.

[31:51]

How helpful you are. And then he told me how helpful I was. But I didn't know about it before he told me. But what he told me was still nothing about what, you still don't know how helpful you are. You don't know how you're imperceptibly mutually assisting other people. You don't know that. You can make up stories about it, but that's not the extent of it. When Dharma fills your body, when Dharma does not fill your body and mind, excuse me for saying this, you think it's sufficient. You think, okay, this is dependent core arising. This is how I'm helping everybody and everybody helps me. But when Dharma fills your body and mind, you realize you cannot actually see the extent to which you are helped and how you are helping. You're talking about Sai. Huh? Sai. Size? If you want to put it in a size box, go right ahead. Size and aspects. Size and interdependence. It's infinite. We cannot actually conceive of.

[32:55]

and perceive infinity. We're not capable of it. But... You could have said that. I could have said that? Well, tell me what I was going to say earlier. And we don't have to go through this fun. Anyway, you can think about... Still, you can think about interdependence, and thinking about interdependence is the way you actually enter into realizing it. So the wisdom is that you actually think about this all the time and you also know that what you're thinking about is not it and also that what you're thinking about lacks inherent existence. You understand that. You think about that. Okay? And you think about it while you're actually working with direct experiences. Okay? So there was many hands. I think Katie was next and then Rain and Helen and Kevin and who else? Hmm? Barrett?

[33:57]

Okay. I think Katie. Katie passes. And next, I think, was Rain. Can I just clarify a couple things? Sure. You said that, or actually, we said that it wasn't a mental experience. And then you're saying that, well, anyway. Yeah. Is that actually correct to say it's not a mental experience? If you include everything that the mind does? Well, mental means, mental means like sensory, like, you know, you could perceive, it's a perception, a perception is something that's like brought into like a little package. Right. So you can, so again, huh? That's up to you, right? Yeah, but there's no, there's no, for human beings, there's no things that exist by themselves unless we package them with words. It's not that there's no life or existence, right? other than what we package in words. It's just that those things which aren't packaged by us are not things for us. In order for us to have evidence for something, in order for us to have evidence and prove it to other people, it's got to have mental imputation on it.

[35:07]

Otherwise, it hasn't been defined for us to say, this is what it is, and other people say, oh yeah, I know what you mean. You're talking about pre-verbal packaging? Well, you can say pre-verbal, but basically you put a mental construct on it, and the constructs are roots of the words. Words are rooted in concepts, so basically it's a word. But if you want to say, no, it's not a word, it's an image, or it's a concept. We can't have things, there are no things, other than that we mentally impute on them. It isn't just mental imputation, it also has to have some coherence, and other people have to agree Otherwise, it's just a, you know, like, I'm mentally imputing a Cadillac unicorn on Mars right now. But nobody else knows about that. And nobody else can verify that. So it's just a fantasy.

[36:10]

But you, you know, rain, I can say, rain, people say, oh yeah, I know what rain is. And I can say, well, this is rain. And you say, no, it's lean. They wouldn't agree that this is rain. Got to be over there. So it has to be, if I say rain, they say, okay, rain. Rain the person. Yeah, rain the person. That's not Aaron. That's not Lee. And everybody, it putes this thing to it, and so we've got this thing. That's what it takes to make a thing. Aside from that, there aren't things. Aside from that, there are just probabilities of things. Right? Everything has a probability or a possibility. But for it to happen, there has to be mental imputation to drain it away from its other probabilities of not being manifested in the world. So then we've got to think, which is fine. This is what we can perceive. These things are what we perceive. But how that was built, how that was dependently created, the full extent of it, that

[37:15]

is inconceivable, but part of practice is to think about something that you can't really conceive. In other words, but it doesn't mean that you don't go right ahead and think about people and frogs. You do, but you don't just think about them, which you ordinarily are doing. You think about, you watch how they come to be. You start thinking about how they depend before they arise, not just how they're independent. It's instantaneous... And a visual for us to like make things. That part we've got down. Now we've got to kind of bring something more to it. Bring this meditation on a priori causal relationships. But what if I should have knew that you didn't know? Yeah. I wouldn't be able to see it if I didn't know it. Before you identify it? It wouldn't exist for me if I didn't identify it. In fact, things like that do happen to people.

[38:20]

One person knows something and shows it to another person. Like right now I'm knowing something I'm showing to you people, but you haven't yet seen it. And gradually as time goes on you'll start to see what I'm talking about. Because you'll be able to yourself mentally attribute the existence of what I'm talking about to what's happening here. And then you'll see it too. That's why, you know, some things exist for some people and not for others. It's possible. But as they communicate back and forth, both parties can verify the existence of the thing. But it's not existence. Ultimately, it's only existence and dependence on this attribution, on this story. Without the story, it wasn't there. And as a story formed, suddenly it appeared. Like you meet a person, you know, they're a nice person, and then somebody tells you a story about how they're a jerk, and you don't see a jerk yet, and they tell you more and more about the story, and suddenly you see the jerk.

[39:26]

Martha? Oh, excuse me, Helen and Bernd. And Martha? It's not clear to me how you said that... wisdom is not a mental experience and also to say that wisdom is to think about something. It's like two different kinds of wisdom. No. To think about something, when you think about something, the thinking about something is not an experience. Okay? Like Jeanette. For me right now, it's a perception. That's a perception. Okay? That's not wisdom. That's a perception. Okay? Everybody okay? I mean, you might not agree with me, but that's what I'm saying. I'm saying my perception of Jeanette is not wisdom.

[40:33]

It's just a perception. Okay? then I wouldn't have a visual perception of Jeanette, but I might be able to hear Mimi's voice. So my perception of Mimi's voice is a perception. It's not wisdom. It's a mental experience. Okay? All right? Step number one, okay? Step number two, to think about the dependent core arising of this face over there that I call Jeanette. Think about the dependent core arising. That's not a perception. Wasn't that nice? Yes. You see the difference between the perception of Jeanette and thinking about her dependent core rising? I cannot see her dependent core rising. I can make up a story about her dependent core rising, but that's not it. I'm thinking about the story of her mental, of her dependent core rising is now a mental object, and that's a sensory perception too, my story about how she dependent core rose.

[41:35]

I'm actually thinking about the dependent core rising of her And that's not a perception. I can't see the imperceptible, by definition of course, I can't see the imperceptible mutual assistant by which Helen appears to me. I can't see how it happened that you come into my life. I can't see that. But I think about it whenever you come. That's not a mental perception. However, it is a mental exercise. It's an exercise of my mentality It's an exercise of my mentality. It is an exercise of my vitality. It is an exercise, a mental exercise. It is a wisdom exercise. And when I actually am thinking that way all the time, I've realized both. Because I don't meet people anymore, I meet wonder. I meet the pinnacle arising. I'm always cued into the pinnacle arising of everything I meet. So I still live in the realm of perceptions, and I take my perceptions...

[42:40]

You know, just write, I hope. In other words, I don't take them too seriously or not seriously enough. I just look at them just as they are and work with them very exactly and honestly and uprightly. I work with my perceptions and then, because I'm so open to them, I open to their inner dependence which I cannot see and which is not a mental perception. Nobody, including Buddha, can see it as an object of perception. Buddha couldn't see it either. But he understood it. That's the wisdom. When you think, think, think about interdependence, you gradually start to realize interdependence. And you can say that things are interdependent from that place, like the Buddha did. And because you actually are living in that place and talking from that place, you naturally have great compassion because of course you would if you saw things that way.

[43:48]

But seeing things that way is not perceptual seeing things that way. You see them that way from the realm where things are that way and the realm where there are things that way. There aren't independent perceivers there anymore. There's no independence. So that's how working with things, all of our experiences are perceptual experiences, but our existence is not just an experience. We can exist without experience, in fact, which is part of the strange warp of the history of Buddhism is that the Buddha did these exercises where he suppressed his experience as an attempt to realize the existence of nirvana. But actually, it's not that way. It's that you're realizing your bonnet, but understanding how your perceptions are dependently co-arising, rather than by suppressing them all. OK, I think Barrett was next.

[44:57]

And then now we have Martha, and Jordan, and Jeanette, and Amazon. Okay. Baron? That's Baron, right? Is that Baron? See? You got him. So, depending on co-rising, my question is if you can, let's say, realize it as a kind of, I would say, negative reasoning. What I mean by that is I'm I'm very often acutely aware of my sacred self. Yes. Suffering love from it. Yes, right. That's the way I usually recommend to do it. Do it by negative reasoning, because that's more likely to show it to you, because, in fact, that's the way you do think. We think negatively in terms of Pratikasamutpada. We think negatively. In terms of dependable arising, we think negatively. What do you mean by negative? Is that you think you exist by yourself.

[45:58]

Not interdependently. That's what you were talking about. But then I would also say my experience. Yes. of mindfulness practices, when I look for the self, I will find it. That's what I mean by negative reasoning. So if it's not there... That's not negative reasoning, that's actually something you found by looking. But the next step is, this is how far I think I can go. It's not there. So if this is not true, if this is not my mode of operation... If what's not your mode of operation? Be independent. This is not the reality of my mode of operation. There must be another mode of operation. That's what I mean by negative reasoning, which is dependent co-arising. I want to try to... Are you saying that form of reasoning is dependent co-arising?

[47:00]

Dr. Singh? I don't think so. But it arises upon the thing for the independent self. Yeah, I think that the entry into and the realization of dependent core arising could be followed by what you're just describing, I agree. But that's not, your method there is not dependent core arising. But that method might be a door for you to dependent core arising. Yeah, I'm not saying it's... Yeah, right. It's like negative reasoning can be a door. Yeah, yeah, right. I mean, what you've named negative reasoning could be a gate. I didn't see it as negative reasoning. I thought it was that you positively were looking for the self and you didn't find it. And that helps you realize interdependence. Actually, my question is, what is realization?

[48:05]

Realization? Yeah. Well, realization is bodhi. In Buddhism, the realization of Buddha is called bodhi. Realization is wisdom. And based on that realization, the point of Buddhism is manifested. The point of Buddhism is realization of wisdom and great compassion. You can have some compassion without wisdom, but the real, the great compassion, infinite compassion, the untiring, unlimited compassion is born of wisdom. So that's why the Buddha tries to teach people wisdom, because once they've got wisdom, then the compassion will follow. Compassion is really the point because love is really the point. Love is to realize love is what you need when you realize the pinnacle of rising.

[49:09]

When it's realized fully in your body and mind. It's called love. That's really the point of Buddhism. But you've got to have the realization of wisdom to have full-scale love. Unprejudiced love. Not just love for your clan Yeah, I think the marker was next to it. I'll just go back to the concentration practice. Yes. Isn't it possible to realize the pendant polarizing or the fact of not being having a separate self in that practice of reality? Then that one concentrates on breath, and then there's no one concentrating on breath, and then there's breath, and then there's... I mean, distinctly, a lot of mental activity in the second... Right. ...the mindfulness practice you're talking about. Yeah, a lot of mental activity in the second one.

[50:12]

And I'm just wondering, is there really a distinction in the practices that much? Well, let's go back... Before we go back, I just wanted to highlight the point that the way I was talking about a lot of mental activity going on, in other words, the Buddha I'm proposing is a very intense thinker and feeler. He's really very active. Now we're going to another possible way to believe. Let's hear about him, aren't we? No, you tell me. I'm asking. You're saying, yes, that is a way through. That is a path to the concentration of breath. Yeah. So you concentrate on breath. All right. And is somebody concentrating on breath? Is somebody concentrating on breath? Do you want to have somebody not be there? Do you want to say that part? Just a bit. OK, so somebody's not there. Somebody was there, and now there's somebody not there.

[51:13]

It's the sense of just breath. The sense of just breath, okay. Another one. Well, if I talk about it as an experience outside, I'm setting up a kind of duality here, but there is a realization that breath is not separate from anything else going on in that moment. Okay, so now we've got the breath going on, and there's some realization, some understanding that breath is now separate from other things. In other words, would you say there's some understanding that breath, depending on the core, rises, comes up? Okay? Yes. So what's your question? Well, I just... That wasn't talked about in that way, just wanted... This is a new way of talking about it. What's the difference between the way you just talked about it and the other ways that they've talked about it? To me it sounds the same, it's just lost words. The way you describe mindful practice is... What I just described and what I agreed to, the intellectual process is just condensed.

[52:22]

In order to actually realize what he just said, namely, you're looking at the breath, and now you see this breath is not an independent thing, okay? There has to be a thinking about the breath as not an independent thing. You actually, like, are thinking that way, because usually you think the breath is an independent thing. If the experience of it is sometimes, it's a sort of total body sensation, or body realization, body-mind realization, rather than the end of a conceptual... Okay, so here's a possibility, that you look, that there's awareness of breath, and for a moment there, there's awareness of breath, and then suddenly there's a feed, there's some kind of like... whole body realization that the breath is not independent of other things. Okay?

[53:37]

So that's fine, right? That's wonderful. Right? So then, is that the way it is from then on? No. In other words, this insight, this vision of interdependence, this sense of interdependence, which either was a perception, kind of an idea of interdependence, or actually felt sense, you know, deeper than the perceptions. You understand that you understand that. You didn't really see it. You didn't even think necessarily, oh, breath is interdependent. You just felt like what you'd feel like if breath was interdependent, right? In other words, you feel really good with a breath that's independent of the core of risen breath, because that's really what breath is like. In other words, you're with the ultimate reality of breath, which is that breath is not an isolated, substantial thing. Right? So you have that feeling. So there you are. So that should be an encouragement.

[54:44]

I mean, that could be a big encouragement. The sense that you just tapped into what breath really is might be a tremendous encouragement. And that sense that you just tapped into there is what people often call satori. Not the actual tapping into it, but the sense, you know, and the actual perception that this has happened to you and your life could change. Okay? Now, what about realizing this in your life? Then what you do is you take that realization and you make your ordinary daily thinking a monument to that great inspiration and your dependence that you just got a little kick of. So you don't just have that one kick and then go back and see, oh, Rev and Katie and John, You don't just go back to that and let it go at that because you have a big kick in it. That's what some people do in Zen is they tap into that state of existence where things are actually nothing but causal relationships and interdependence.

[55:54]

They tap into that and they feel terrific and they feel compassion. But then they don't put that into work. They don't put that into work. They don't apply themselves to that vision. And sometimes people fall into this and they have no way of putting it into vision because they don't have anybody to teach them how to enact what the vision is, the non-perceptual vision is. And some people like that have a really hard time living after that because of that not knowing what to do with it. In order to actually bring this, you know, harness this and train this, or if you haven't even had the experience to realize it and then train it, is this kind of thinking about what you can't see. Your vision was not what you could see about your relationships. It was more than just like, oh yeah, I know my breath depends on my body and my uncle and air and meditation and retreats and milk and stuff.

[57:03]

I know it depends on all that. But this is something deeper I felt. I felt like the real imperceptible assistance, the real mutual inner, the real mutual imperceptible mutual assistance of the breath. Not only how everybody helps me breathe, but how my breath helps everybody else. I felt that. I realized that. And it wasn't a perception. It isn't a perception. The real encouragement is not a perception. And now I want to dedicate my life to having continuity in that space. And the way to do it is you constantly think about this thing. Namely, it's like the Buddha. You think about how everything is interdependent. But everything you do is a causal, dependent, co-arisen thing. And it may sound noisy, but it's not the slightest bit. Well, it's a tiny bit noisier than what's going on already. There's a tiny bit of additional noise that when you look at something, you look also at it as a dependent core arising.

[58:12]

You always think of the teaching of a dependent core arising. You always think a dependent core arising. Something like that. You always think of the teaching of a dependent core arising whenever you look at something. It doesn't make it a lot noisier, but things are just as noisy as they are, and sometimes they're tremendously noisy, and that's oftentimes when it's hard to remember this one, so then you say it a little louder than usual. But anyway, this is actually training in wisdom. Wisdom is a thinking thing. Wisdom is not a mental suppression. And another part of the confusion why it's hard to get this is because there's a strong, from Shakyamuni Buddha, it's partly his fault. He did this practice. He did these practices called, you know, jhana. Or jhana. This is Sanskrit, and it's his power. He did these practices, okay? And this is where the word Zen comes from.

[59:12]

So part of one possible way to understand Zen is Zen is these practices. And the Zen school got its name from that because people saw Bodhidharma sitting in meditation. They thought he was suppressing his mental function. And he said, no, no, I'm not suppressing my mental function. I'm sitting as a testament to Bodhi, to the thinking of the Buddha, to unsurpassing Bodhi. However, even though he said that, some of his disciples in later generations understood Bodhi as suppression of mental function. So you can find some Zen teachers in some Zen books that are basically teaching you jhana, or teaching you to suppress your thinking as a way to liberation. So when you hear about thinking, and when you hear about thinking about self as a way to realize selflessness,

[60:22]

When you hear about being aware of selfishness as a way to realize selflessness, as you hear about thinking about ego as a way to realize egolessness, as you hear about thinking about independence as a way to realize being independent, when you hear about all this, it sounds different from suppressing the mind. And to some students, it sounds strange. But still, I don't take it all away from you. I say, go right ahead and practice concentration. And you can practice mindfulness of breath. I'm just saying, To bring this practice to fruition of bodhi, you have to bring in also the thinking about interdependence. In other words, Buddhism is not just calming your mind and being mindful. Before Buddhism, people already had this calming the mind thing down. All these yoga practices to suppress the mind predated Buddha. There were yogis walking around India who taught him how to completely suppress your mind. And when you have your mind suppressed like that, in case I haven't mentioned it today, it is very pleasant.

[61:25]

Like I said, it is like being on heroin, when heroin works. There is no pain. There's no pain there. In terms of worldly experience, these trances are the best. that have been found by humans so far. Everybody who's gotten into these things said, they are the best. They are the greatest pleasure in states. Because when you're suffering, the most pleasant thing is to turn the suffering facilities off. And that's what these do. But then as soon as the karmic concept, the karmic retribution of the practice ends, you get your own right back into regular suffering again. So it doesn't work long term. But Buddhism is a different story of suppressing the mind.

[62:30]

It's a way of using the mind, which is called wisdom. So if you're meditating and you're calming your mind and it's pleasant, that's okay. It's all right. But if you want to then take it a step further and develop wisdom, then in developing wisdom, you take credit for the fact that you're thinking. And it's okay to be calm while you're thinking. And it's okay not to be in excruciating pain while you're thinking. It's okay. As a matter of fact, To study your thinking, to develop wisdom, it's a little bit more likely to be possible if you're not extremely, you know, brought up. Being calm helps you develop this kind of thinking. If you're in a rather pleasant state of mind, it's more pleasant, it's easier to study this rather difficult topic called, how is it that it happens that I think I'm independent? Where does this egoism come from?

[63:34]

How does it function? What is the self? Where does this pain come from? Where does this anxiety come from? And no matter what answers you get, those answers, those perceptible answers, are not the whole story. But working with the question and answer, the question and answer, your mind gradually turns toward the teaching of the Buddha rather than the teaching of humans. Teaching of humans is, These people are different. This person gets this check and not that check. This is mine, this is not. This is the teaching of humans. We're independent. This is mine, this is yours. That's the human teaching. The teaching of Buddha is the teaching of interdependence. How do you work with the teaching of Buddha? You work with it by thinking about it, because he delivered it in words. You listen to the words and you think about the words. The words, simple, dependent, choralizing. You can even simplify it to this. Acrobat. All you got to do is put DCA on it.

[64:37]

Put DCA on everything you meet. That means you're always thinking of Buddhist teaching. If that's too complicated, make it simpler. Actually, Zen also has three words. But anyway... Just put the Buddha, the Buddha's teaching on everything you do. Always be studying the Buddha's teaching. No matter what happens, that would be studying Buddha's teaching, studying Buddha's teaching, studying Buddha's teaching. Buddha's wisdom, Buddha's wisdom, Buddha's wisdom, Buddha's compassion, Buddha's compassion. In perceptible mutualism, always think about that. Let's see, who is next? Who is next? Joy? So, you know, trying to follow along with this, sometimes I get kind of in a fog. And you're using a word that I feel almost foolish to ask you to define because it's, you know, I hear it all the time. But what do you mean by perception? Perception, I mean the awareness of an object.

[65:42]

And when you say... You're grasping an object of awareness. So perception is grasping an object of awareness. And when you said, for instance, a non-perceptible vision, Yeah. What's that mean? Well, like what Martha was talking about, she perceives a birth, okay? And then she also, she studied Buddhism, so she also wrote it. And the penicillin arises, so she's got this, like, perceptible story in her mind about what her... You used the word perceptible. That's like perception. Yeah. So she has a perceptible story, the story that she can seize on. Right. Okay. Yeah. So there's a story up there. So you can perceive the story. The story can be an object. So I'm saying, I'm working up to this not-perceptible thing. She talked about two things. Well, she actually talked about one, but I'm adding in another one, which is that you have to breath. That's actually a story. Now you can say, well, I'm going to make a story of how the breath-dependent core rises, which a lot of people do. And when people make stories about how the breath-dependent core rises, they feel good about those stories often.

[66:48]

But Erin has some stories about interdependence that she likes. And she can perceive those stories. still perception. What Martha was talking about is that somehow you tap into a sense, it's not a sensation, but you realize that the breath is dependent on what arises far beyond what you can perceive, far beyond the story you can think of. And the way that that happens to her, that's not something that exists that she can conventionally share with us because she can't put it in words because the story's too long. And she doesn't even know the story. But to tap into that realm where you can't actually perceive them, that's the kind of perception that Buddha has for them. And it is particularly the perception of how we actually are helping each other. The fullness of that. In my daily life, I hardly ever use the word perception. but in this class we've been using it a lot.

[67:50]

Is using and trying to see the moments you perceive when things are perceived by you, is that an edge that you can use? I mean, would it be useful if I tried to actually think now I'm perceiving? I mean, I'm confessing that I never think on a daily basis like as I walk around with the word perception. I come to this class and I hear it a lot, but it's not part of my sort of Well, a perfectly, almost an equivalent word to perception is experience. Okay, that's helpful. Because experience, the way I use the word experience, is experience of something. It's not experience of nothing. It's experience of something. And the thing, in order to be experienced, has to be limited. I can't experience all beings in the world. I can experience sixty, a thousand, one, for you. These are things I can perceive and experience.

[68:52]

So, experience is an alternative word for perception. That's why it says, we said, it's not, does not appear in the realm of perception. We should also say it does not appear in the realm of conscious experience. Not a mental activity, not a mental appearance, not a mental perception. So the thing is just that I propose to you that the Buddha, starting with the Buddha, you know, what the Buddha did was the Buddha had perceptions like everybody else. He had experiences like everybody else. He had experiences of pain, he had experiences of trees, he had experiences of stars, he had experiences of Venus, okay? would have had experiences of the earth just like everybody else. Basically, he had his own version, but basically he just had experiences like no one else. And he was suffering until he started thinking about how experience dependently co-arises.

[69:59]

And by thinking about how experience dependently co-arises, he actually entered into the visionary realm of how experience dependently co-arises. And that is his bodhi. That is his wisdom. And in that realm, We are perfectly happy to give our life to others because we understand, we understand that this separateness is just a perception. I think Jeanette's next. But you know, actually, Jeanette and Sway and Russ, Helen and Phu, you know, it's time to go to Zazen. yeah it's thousand times and you know if it's not thousand times it's like cooking lunch time so we have to stop but I really appreciate those hands because I feel like I appreciate your enthusiasm to encounter this obnoxious thing called Buddha's wisdom which is really not what we thought it was is it

[71:12]

And that's a sign of Buddha's wisdom for everybody but Buddha. So we've got a little transition ahead of us here. Let me know if you want to do this again.

[71:28]

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