And now the big kids talk. One of the difficulties that I find in giving the talk on the first Sunday of the month to the children is how I don't want to have two different talks. I like them to be sort of about the same thing and so I think that might be possible for this talk to really be about the practice of joining the palms and bowing to everything. I don't remember if Suzuki Roshi's wife said this, but she might have said this

[01:11]

when she said that the main thing to teach a children was to join their palms and bow, I think she might have said, because everything is emptiness. Emptiness is a term we use in the Mahayana tradition and also in the early tradition of Buddhism. It's a term which means that all things lack some inherent existence on their own. All things lack independence. A positive way of putting it, I guess, is that all things are interdependent. All things depend on

[02:13]

other things. This is the ultimate way that all phenomena exist. So things appear to exist in various ways, but ultimately they all exist in the same way, namely that they're selfless, that they are interdependent. Things appear to exist separately. We ourselves appear to exist as a separate self, but the way our self ultimately exists is that it exists, but it exists interdependently, and you can't actually find a self that's separate from all other selves. Actually, all the selves are

[03:17]

dependent on all the other selves which are dependent on them. That's the ultimate way things are. In the end, that's how it is, and before anything starts, that's how it is. This is what we call emptiness, and the bodhisattvas, the beings who are trying to work for the welfare of the world, their realization, their understanding, and what they actualize in the world, what they're trying to actualize, is this interdependence. They meditate for many years so they finally understand that everything is interdependent, and therefore everything deserves us to join our palms and bow to it. Everything

[04:20]

deserves our utmost respect, and with this utmost respect we can learn, we can tirelessly meet whatever comes without grasping it and without seeking anything else. This is the way a Buddha meets living beings. This is the way a Buddha meets anything that comes, with complete respect, non-grasping, and non-seeking. In this way, the Buddha's compassion is unhindered by seeking, resistance, tension, and burnout. The separate self, the self that's separate from other beings, is

[05:36]

basically a sense of seeking and grasping, and some spiritual traditions are presented as a great seeking of something, and the people who practice in some traditions are called seekers, but in the tradition emphasizing interdependence, the practice is non-seeking. It's the practice of the antidote to the way you feel when you feel separate. So there is a sense right now probably, there is some sense of a separate self, and that manifests right now as some feeling of contraction. Right now, perhaps

[06:40]

there's some feeling of contraction that you can sense around yourself, some feeling of tension, some feeling of seeking, some feeling of yearning, and it's not that we reject these things, not at all. We gently acknowledge them, kindly acknowledge them, and then open to the possibility of not seeking anything other than what's happening. And what's happening, again, may be a sense of separate things. Each separate thing, we either physically or mentally, or both,

[07:45]

join our palms and bow to it. Not to get anything, not to go anyplace, but actually to be here and appreciate that this appearance, whatever it is, this emotion, this feeling, this perception, this color, this sound, whatever it is, no matter what the experience is, it is inseparable from the ultimate truth. So it's not that these are two different things, the apparent, the superficial, and the profound, the interdependent. They're inseparable. Things appearing to be separate, and things appearing and actually proving that they're interdependent, these two worlds are inseparable, they're locked together. And

[08:50]

when you look at one, the other's there. I remember a story about one of Suzuki Roshi's teachers. His name was Kishizawa. He was a Japanese Zen teacher, and he told Suzuki Roshi and some others a story about when he was studying with his teacher. And one day his teacher said to him, You're not my disciple. And Kishizawa's teacher was named Nishiyari, which means there is a West, or in the West, that's his family name. So the Zen

[09:57]

teacher Nishiyari said to the Zen student, future Zen master Kishizawa, he said, You're not my disciple. And Kishizawa was a very diligent and devoted disciple, he thought. He said, I'm not your disciple, how come? And Nishiyari said, Because you don't bow to me except in certain situations. If I have my robes on and I'm sitting in formal meeting or a ceremony, you bow to me. But when I'm lounging around or going to the toilet or coming out of the toilet, you don't. So you're not my disciple. You should bow to me in every situation, no matter what, making no distinction. It's a strict training, but the point is he's trying to

[11:00]

help his disciple realize that everything is interdependent. There's nothing outside of the net of relationship standing by itself. So the physical practice of joining the palms and bowing is a way to learn non-seeking and non-grasping. And even when you do it, you can see if the hands can come together and the bow can happen without seeking anything by that, without trying to get anything. So for example, we just touch the palms, we don't grab a hold of the other ones. Just touch them intimately. Neither one owns the other. And also this, of course, brings together the apparent world and the ultimate world, the world where we feel separate and yearning and tense and frightened and

[12:04]

threatened and grasping and seeking. You bring that world together with the world we're not grasping and not seeking and relaxed and free. We bring those worlds together. We don't separate those two worlds. We don't prefer freedom, liberation, relaxation, openness. We don't prefer that to contraction, bondage, and so on. The separate self wants freedom. It thinks it's not. It thinks it's not free, so it wants free. The interdependent self doesn't want freedom because it is freedom. We join the free self, the interdependent self, with the bound,

[13:04]

seeking, grasping, tense, contracted self. We bring them together. And we use that to meet every ultimate and relative thing. Even a child can do it. Even we can do it. But can we do it for everything? That takes some time to really respect everything. So the robin sings, just like that. That's it. We bow to the robin. And we

[14:11]

sing with the robin. And I said to someone a few days ago, I said, are you ready for enlightenment? And she said, no. No, she didn't say no. She said, I feel this great resistance. And I said, very good. She felt that resistance, that contraction. The separate self, poor thing, wants to be enlightened and free, but in fact, when offered enlightenment, it tenses up and contracts. And she identified that. Here, it's being offered. Ready to awaken? I feel resistance. There's a resistance there. Telling me that, I think, was her way of bowing to that resistance and

[15:16]

sharing it with me. Here, here's my resistance. Not skipping over the resistance and saying, yes. First of all, there's a resistance, she felt. And I did say, are you ready for enlightenment? So maybe I could rephrase the question and just say, ready for enlightenment? I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about ready for enlightenment. I'm talking to the self. There's no resistance. The interdependent self, there's no resistance. No resistance to all the things that are supporting it. All the things that are helping it. The interdependent self is helped by everything. The separate self is helped by some things. It decides

[16:17]

what things help and what things don't, and seeks those that help, and seeks to avoid and reject those things that don't. I just stumbled upon a little article in a magazine published by the headquarters of the Soto Zen in America. Have you heard of Zen? This place is called a Zen Center. And we don't mention it, but it also has an association what is called Soto Zen. It's a type of Zen. There's also Rinzai Zen. And those are the two most popular types. So this is a so-called Soto Zen Center, a Soto Zen Green Dragon Temple

[17:23]

that you're in right now. And the scholar came to give a workshop at the San Francisco Zen Center about a year or so ago, and he said he interviewed about a half a dozen of the practitioners in the San Francisco Zen Center. And actually, one of them that got interviewed told me about the interview afterwards, but I heard his report in this magazine about the San Francisco Zen Center people. And he came to make this term up for the sense he got from these people he interviewed, and he called this term the San Francisco bodywork style of Zen practice.

[18:27]

And he characterized, how did he put it, I think he characterized this style as, I can remember, something like a meditation of attention to inner changes, attention to inner changes, attention to changes in your body and mind, with a fairly rigorous, hands-off attitude towards those changes in terms of influencing them in some way or another. So being mindful of what's going on in your changing experience, watching your the flow of your experience, without trying to make the experience go

[19:37]

some particular way. That's what he picked up from his interviews. I thought, actually I thought that sounds pretty good. And he said that the idea of trying to control the experience he felt from these people was anathema on deep ideological grounds to their practice, that it was really opposed to what they thought freedom was, and they felt like control, going for control in the midst of this flow of experience, was to abandon the possibility of freedom and to introduce artifice. I think they maybe said artifice, but I, you know, okay, artifice. That's what he picked up from his interviews. But then he said, but I don't know if these people know how odd this is in light of the Buddhist tradition,

[20:38]

where for centuries people believed that a lack of self-control left one at the mercy of one's senses and desires and made you a prisoner to them. He says that's what Buddhists believed for centuries. And you know, I think some people who are, quotes, Buddhist, unquote, have believed that. Well, I don't know if they believed for centuries, but for centuries people have been believing that. The people who believe it don't usually live for centuries. Poor things. Anyway, these beings, there is a lot of teaching which floats around in the so-called Buddhist world about controlling your senses. And you can find it in English translation, control the senses, control your desires, control yourself, control your bladder, control your behavior, control, control, control. You find it in Buddhist teachings and Buddhist centers. But at the San

[21:43]

Francisco bodywork style, there's not so much emphasis on control. And I've been talking quite a bit about giving up control. Have you heard me mention about giving up control? About meeting whatever comes, meeting your experience. Experience comes, here it comes, meet it without trying to control it. Meet your granddaughter or your grandson or your baby, meet it without trying to control it. Try to meet it with complete relaxation, with not grasping or seeking. Meet it the way your interdependent self meets it. And the way your interdependent self meets it is that when this thing comes, you get to live. Your interdependent self is something that is born from this meeting, not something that's there before and then you impose

[22:43]

the will of this self on what comes. From where? Are you trying to control me? Are you trying to control the experience of hearing this talk? Huh? Yeah, me too. But I can understand that that was a little ... maybe that went by a little fast and you'd like to happen a couple more times so you could get it. So part of it would be you'd sit here and listen to what I'm saying

[23:50]

without rejecting it and without trying to get it, without seeking to understand what I'm saying and without trying to like protect yourself from what I'm saying. To open your great hearts to what you're hearing and just let it in and trust that your heart will take care of it, not that anybody has to get it. Because you and I are, you know, interdependent and you are interdependent, your life is interdependent with everything you hear right now. So when I first came to Zen Center I heard Zazen, I heard the meditation practice presented as three aspects. Control the posture, control the breathing and control the mind. I thought that was nifty.

[24:51]

And you know, I tried it and I said, I don't want to practice that way anymore. I don't want to practice controlling my body, controlling my mind, controlling my breath. I do not want to, I don't want to. That's not what I came for. I came for what? I came to relax. I came to be at ease with people no matter what they're doing. If they come and they go, uh-uh, I want to meet that with relaxation. I want to be open and meet that. If they come and I want to meet that. That's what I came to learn, to meet whatever comes openly, unafraid, to be able to be intimate with it, not to control me and not to control you. But anyway, I tried to control myself and I got myself kind of under control. And you know, I said, I don't like this. This is not what I came here for. It was harsh. I was free of being out of control, but I wasn't happy. Now, I'm not, some people may be able to

[26:02]

follow this controlling trip all the way to freedom, but I didn't want to. But anyway, it's that way of, I don't think it's for freedom of everybody. I think it's for freedom of one person, because that's who it's about. I don't think it's for everybody. I think it's for freedom it's about controlling yourself. But the tradition of the San Francisco bodywork style is not about liberating yourself. It's about realizing your true relationship or the true relationship of who you are, or realize that who you are is your true relationship with all beings. That's who you are and that's who they are. And so you're realizing what you are and what they are. That's the point of the San Francisco bodywork style. And you can't control this process. But somebody trying to control is often part of what's happening. You may be trying to control,

[27:10]

somebody else may be trying to control. So you relate to that. So if somebody's trying to control me, I just, I try to relax with that and say, are you trying to control me? If they say no, I say fine. If they say yes, I say fine. I try to relax with whether they're trying to control me or not. When the teacher says, you're not my disciple, he could be saying that to get his disciple under control, to get his disciple to turn into a nice little Gassho robot. Okay, just turn the disciple to join palms to anything and then they just do that. That could be what you're trying to do by telling the disciple, okay, whatever happens, join your palms and bow and then you just make them do that because they want to be your disciple. So you control them into being just what you want them to be. That could be, but it could also be

[28:12]

just that you're just expressing yourself. You're just saying, you're not my disciple. And the reason why you're not the disciple is because you're picking shoes. Just wanted you to know that you're not my disciple, that's all. I'm done, you know, and I hate you for not being my disciple. It's terrible, you know, because here you are trying to be my disciple and I'm trying to be your teacher and we're just total flop. We are failing in this teacher-student thing. It's not working and I'm so upset you're not my disciple and I'm not your teacher. But you can say that without trying to control the situation, just expressing your problem. I got a problem here. I got a problem. That's it. I'm an uptight Zen teacher. But I'm completely relaxed about being uptight. I'm so relaxed I can tell you and the world,

[29:12]

so that generations from now people will retell this story of how uptight I was. I'm free of being uptight. I don't use my uptightness to get control of you or to get control of me. And I don't use my energy based on this uptightness to get control. I'm letting go of the tension right while it's there. I bow to this tension. I bow to the seeking. I bow to the contraction. I relax with the contraction. I relax with whatever is happening with deep respect because what's happening is giving me a chance to realize Buddha, to realize non-grasping and non-seeking, to realize our interdependence. Right under the situation of having a body and a sense that we're separate, right with the

[30:16]

feeling of being separate, by meeting that separateness with complete relaxation, we realize our non-separation. We realize our freedom. And this in a sense is odd. If you look at the tradition, a lot of Buddhists have thought that Buddhism was about controlling the people. And there is some merit in teaching people that for a while, like it was useful to me to be taught that, control the body, control the mind, control the breath. I tried it and then I found out that doesn't work. It was useful for me to try that, but I think it was not appropriate. That's not the way appropriate to the liberation of this world. I think it was appropriate to find out that control is a dead end, but maybe useful to go up that alley sometimes. And thousands and millions of Buddhists have done that. And the Buddha maybe said that.

[31:17]

But anyway, I'm putting the flag up for non-seeking. And again, that flag can go up out of a sea of seeking, out of an ocean of seekers, out of an ocean of people who are seeking something. We raise the flag of non-seeking. And we also raise another flag which says, we admit we're seeking, by the way. We admit we're seeking, but right with that flag of admitting that we're seeking, admitting that we have a separate sense of separate self, and that seeking, seeking, seeking. We also raise another flag which is, we're not seeking anything. We're willing to be a separate self who's seeking forever. We're willing to be here forever with all these beings who also got the same problem. And we'll just sing our song, bopping along. We'll just do that. And the funny thing is, it says, there'll be no more sobbing when she starts throbbing.

[32:35]

In the fullness of our throb, we transcend our sob. But if you hold back the throb, you don't participate fully in that throb, then you become dominated by your sob. So if I ask, are you ready for enlightenment? Maybe you say, I feel resistance. Are you ready for your pain? Maybe you feel some contraction. Are you ready to join your palms and bow? Maybe you feel some resistance. But the resistance to the bowing is the same as the resistance to enlightenment.

[33:38]

And the seeking something from the bowing is the same as seeking enlightenment. But just to bow without seeking anything or grasping anything is to meet enlightenment without seeking or grasping, and that is enlightenment. Because in enlightenment you don't have to get anything. That's what you understand. You don't have to get anything, and when Buddhists realize Buddhahood, they don't get anything. That's what they realize, is that they don't get anything. But it's nice to say, are you ready? Are you ready, my brothers? Are you ready, my sisters? It's nice to ask, are you ready?

[34:42]

But then there's also, ready? Ready? Ready? Ready for life? Ready for death? Ready for dirt? Ready for purity? Ready for pain? Ready for pleasure? How does your heart feel hearing the question? Ready? Contraction? Ready? Ready? Yeah, there's a little contraction. Okay, okay, okay, okay. It's all right. And then it starts to open. If I really accept that contraction, it starts to open. Can you hear me in the back? Huh? I suppose so. You can hear in the back? A little louder? A little quieter? What? Yeah, so I'm not talking about seeking to open your heart. Just listen to the question. Ready? And then I feel contraction. Ready? And I feel the contraction. Ready? And I feel the contraction,

[35:50]

and then there starts to be something else. But maybe there doesn't start to be something else. But the something else is not really something else. It's right there, right in the contraction is the openness. You're willing, you great enlightening beings are willing to come into this title situation. It's very kind of you. Thank you for coming. But did you forget what you came for? Did you forget that you're born to save this world from contraction, from resistance, to freedom from contraction and resistance? And this person, you know, at the end of the article, this scholar said something about, I did something like this, and maybe this is just, you know, this San Francisco bodywork style of giving up control and not interfering with what's happening

[36:54]

and not seeking anything. Maybe this is just the fruit of that great city. Maybe actually something has happened in San Francisco, something like a new thing in Buddhism, that the American San Francisco Buddhism is this very open thing, you know. Maybe there's something really great about San Francisco. Maybe the best of San Francisco is partly working to open Zen up, to make it, you know, non-patriarchal. Could that be? That tradition over there, you know, that in Asia, India, China, Japan, Korea, Southeast Asia, Tibet, it's patriarchal. The patriarch, the patres, the papas are in charge. And now in America it's starting to open up,

[37:57]

open up, it's starting to relax, it's starting to give up control of the program. Little by little, gently, the patriarchy is being released. And of all cities, San Francisco. What other kinds of discriminations were going on in Asian Buddhism? In San Francisco, it's a good place to let go of those discriminations, all those racial discriminations, all those gender discriminations that were going on in Asia are being loosened in San Francisco. All the distinctions between the different types of Buddhism are being loosened.

[39:00]

One time, about 26 years ago, I went to a seminar on Buddhism in Berkeley. And there were mostly men at the seminar, but there were some women. And it was a very, I would say, sharp and particular analytical and intellectual discussion of various teachings of Buddhism. And then I drove from Berkeley to Point Reyes and went to another class on, well, it was on giving birth. And all the women in the room were pregnant. And there were some men who were these partners, or the fathers usually, of the babies in the tummies. And they were talking, they were speaking English, these people, but the way they spoke it

[40:13]

was very different from the way they were talking in Berkeley. I found it rather mushy. All these bodies, all these female bodies were like letting go, they were like expanding, they were relaxing, they were trying to make room for this big, big change in their body. Their bones were softening, their minds were softening, they were getting ready to let this thing pass through their body. And their minds were very soft and flowing. And coming from that conversation, I found it to be mushy, and not under control. And I made some comment to that, my wife about it afterwards, and she made some comment back to me. You know, and I realized that I was holding on to that kind of like

[41:20]

sharp analytical control mind, and I wasn't letting it go as I entered this other realm, this realm of making room for babies. But it isn't that one's better than the other, you should be able to go from one to the other, that you should be able to sometimes be very sharp and analytical, but in a relaxed way. And you should sometimes be able to be soft and flowing, but not trying to be that way. Because we're all, of course, creating this thing together. Of course, but it doesn't look like that sometimes, right? And that's the great struggle, or challenge, because it seems like some people really seem to disagree with us, or we really disagree with some people. So how do we not grasp and not seek in such an intense

[42:22]

meeting of contradiction and opposition? This is what Bodhisattvas must do, because they have to not just help the people who agree with them, but help everybody. And we need this non-attachment and non-seeking in order to open our hearts to absolutely all situations, all beings. That's what I came to Zen Center to learn, and I'm happy I came to learn it. And I hope you learn it with everybody. And I hope you, if you ever find it useful, to join your palms that you do so, and express your respect for whatever you meet. And then we sing a song, like the children. When the red, red robin comes bob, bob, bobbing along, along, there'll be no more sobbing when she starts throbbing her old sweet song.

[43:26]

Wake up, wake up, you sleepyhead, get up, get up, get out of bed, cheer up, cheer up, the sun is red, live, love, laugh and be happy. Though I've been blue, now I'm walking through fields of flowers. Rain may glisten, but still I listen for hours and hours. I'm just a kid again, doing what I did again, singing a song. When the red, red robin comes bob, bob, bobbing along, bob, bob, bob, bobbing along, everything's empty. When the red robin comes bob, bob, bobbing along, bob, bob, bobbing along,

[45:02]

them. The best way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. The beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. The best way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. Good morning. Thank you very much for coming and for the benefit of anybody who is here

[46:26]

today is our senior dharma teacher, Tenshin Rev. Anderson. He'll be back in here for a question and answer period in just about 25 minutes. If the people who need to leave right now to get the tea could just go ahead. We'll be having tea and muffins, I believe, out here at the side of the Zendo for the next 20 minutes or so. I'd just like to mention a couple of things that are going on in the next week or two this month. One of them is going to be an introductory sitting. It's led by Maya Wender and that will be on August 11th, Saturday. You can get more information about that in the office. That's a good opportunity for people who haven't done very much extended sitting but who are interested in finding out maybe what it's like. Then also that weekend on the 12th is a tea gathering, a monthly

[47:28]

tea gathering also with Maya at the tea house, Maya and Randy Weingarten. That is for anybody who would like to experience a formal Japanese tea. The tea house is a lovely place. Anyway, we do those monthly and you can find out more about that in the office also. There is plenty more I could mention but we also have scheduled events for classes and lectures that are going on for the rest of the fall. If you'd like to pick one out, please do. But I would like to mention what the Mountain Gate Study Center classes are that are going to be starting in September. That will be September 9th if they begin. One of them is the introduction to Zen with our regular Eno, Mick Sopko. Another one is Mindfulness in Zen with Maya Wender. I understand that we're also going to be offering Dogen's extensive record.

[48:31]

This is going to be taught by Shiohaku Okamura-sensei. I believe that's going to be held on Tuesday evening. More information on that and everything else is available in the office. So we will need some volunteer help today and if there is anybody who would like to join the residents for lunch and then do dishes with us, we need three people. One, two, three. Thank you very much. The residents' lunch starts at 12.15. Also we need about six or eight people to help us put away some chairs right now. So one, two, three, four, five, six, maybe one more. Okay, great. That will be plenty. Thank you very much in advance

[49:33]

for any donations you make here today. Enjoy it. Thank you. Excuse me. We'll leave the first three rows of chairs here and these cushions in the front for all the other chairs. Thank you.

[50:35]

Fairness to them, would you? Pardon? Fairness to them. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Thank you. How do you work with it? Without trying to control it?

[52:04]

Uh-huh. What's the other attitude? You know those bumper stickers? I think they say, take it easy, or what do they say? Easy does it. That's the bumper sticker for Alcoholics Anonymous, right? Yeah. Yeah. So people who have, one alcoholic told me that when he feels resentment, then he's at risk to go back to take some chemical like alcohol to relieve the stress of the resentment. So when he feels resentment, he tries to address the resentment so he can let go of it. Because if you feel, and if you see something, you can also apply that then to the addiction itself. If you get tense with the addiction, then that tension will make you at risk to revert to something

[53:07]

which will try to get you to relax. So basically a lot of addictions are trying to help people relax with their pain. So most people have pain, and we have this pain of contraction and resistance to life. Most people do. And if you do something to like sedate yourself in relationship to that, by chemicals and other things, that seems to work temporarily to help you relax with that tension. But there's a drawback of using something to get yourself away from it as a way to help yourself relax. If there's some way to relax with it without moving away from it, that's the great trick. And so even if, even the very addiction, which is trying to get you away from the pain,

[54:09]

then you think, well, I feel the pain because I'm trying to control, now I take a drug to help me deal with the pain of trying to control. So now I can try to control taking the drug. So in some sense we have to surrender to the addiction in order to relax. So it may not be possible, you may say, well then I guess you should try to control yourself and just go and stay away from addiction. And I'm not saying what to do, I'm just saying it won't work. It won't work to try to control yourself, to stop trying to control yourself. That's why in the 12-step program is that you're not going to be able to control yourself out of this control trip you're on of using this drug. The drug is a control trip. The alcohol is, you're trying to control your situation. You're in pain and you're trying to control it. And you're killing yourself because you're trying to control your pain. Trying to control pain is death.

[55:16]

And then if you try to control yourself out of trying to control, it's not going to work. It's perpetuating the same process. They say that in AA, right? You're not going to do it by your own power. You have to resort to a greater power. The greater power is relaxation. The greater power is non-attachment and non-seeking. This is what really works. When you learn how to... Go ahead. You're surrendering to everything. You don't make any exceptions. But by surrendering, you're surrendering to surrender. Basically, it's surrender that you're surrendering to. You're realizing what surrender really is. And there's no exceptions. You're not like picking and choosing. You're choosing about your surrender. I'll surrender to you, but not to you. That's a beginner's surrender.

[56:20]

I shouldn't say beginner. Beginner's surrender is like you're too dumb to figure out who you're going to surrender to. You just surrender to everybody. And later you get smart. I'll surrender just to the Buddhist system. First you surrender to addiction, then what happens? Then you surrender to the pain. Maybe. Maybe it's not clear. Yes. Right. Accept whatever you can accept. Accept what's happening. And that acceptance will gradually bring you into more acceptance. And more acceptance will gradually bring you into more understanding.

[57:23]

But one of the nice things about a lot of... Not all alcoholics, but a lot of drug addicts, they know that they're taking this thing to deal with their pain. They say, this thing actually helped me deal with my pain. And then now I have this even bigger pain from whenever I don't have this thing which helped me with this other pain. But it did for a while there. It really was helping me with my pain. I really was... I was able to function. I couldn't function, I was in so much pain, and I took this drug and it worked for a while and it was great. But now when I don't have the drug, I'm in super unbelievable pain when I don't have that. So now I'm speaking to you from this rehab situation because I see that this escalation of avoiding pain is death. So I'm trying to get back to that original pain and learn some way to, other than using this drug,

[58:25]

to deal with my pain. But some people don't know they're avoiding the pain. They're using the drug and they're completely denying that they're trying to get away from their pain. So that's all they can do is get to a place where they... I guess usually they have to get to a place where they realize that they are in pain, I think. Some people come to rehab situations and the doctor or whatever says, You're not ready for this. You're not low enough yet. You have to go more trouble, I think, before you're going to do this wholeheartedly. You have to find your face in the gutter and wake up and say, What is that in my face? Oh, it's a gutter. I'm in a gutter. Something has changed here. I am having a problem. This is not like something to talk my way out of anymore. So, some people have to... We all have to get to a gutter in our face, I think, in order to really... Okay, I see this way doesn't work anymore. Let's try another way.

[59:27]

So, some people say God, but I'm saying non-attachment and non-seeking. I'm saying... I'm talking like that. Because it's not like something out there. It's a way of being that's right available to us. It's right here. It is our life, actually. Our actual living. Not our living and dying and coming and going, but our actual living isn't attachment and clinging and seeking. That's what you mean by death. When you say addiction is death. It's not that it's life. Addiction, grasping is death. Trying to get control kills. It is death. And seeking something is birth. And by seeking and grasping, we go through this thing called birth and death, birth and death, birth and death, birth and death. When you give up grasping and seeking, that's Buddha. And then, because of grasping and seeking, you dare to come into the world

[60:30]

with everybody, because that's where Buddha lives, in the world of birth and death. But Buddha isn't being born and dying, because Buddha is not trying to control the program. Buddha is trying to get intimate with the program, so that everybody else will get intimate with the program. You get intimate with the pain, you get intimate with the source of the pain, you become free of it, with everybody. Right? Yeah, that's what you're doing. You're trying to get into this soup of suffering with all beings and relax there with us. Right? Yeah. That's why you get into your own soup. Yeah, right. Yeah. If nobody owns the soup around, get in your own, and if you can get in your own, you can get into other people's. But it's not by getting control of your soup, it's entering it and cooking there, you know, cooking your stuff, and you will mature, and then you'll start to realize everybody else is actually in the soup with you, and some of the people in the soup with you will say, I'm not in the soup with you, I don't want to be in this soup, there's no soup,

[61:31]

I'm going to get control. You say, okay, that's part of who you live with here. This is like a challenge, you know, they really disagree, they say, get control of this soup, get those carrots over there, get those onions down there, turn the temperature up, turn the temperature down. This is the way they're trying to deal with suffering. And you see, they're just trying to deal with suffering, you know. It's okay, they're doing their best, but they can't get more skillful. And if you can relax with all their frustration and all their unskillfulness and all your own frustration and all your unskillfulness, then you can show them what they have a potential to do. And we evolve together that way. But this is hard, right? It's hard to relax when somebody's moving your onions. Or somebody's trying to control your carrots. It's hard, you know. It's painful or it's seductive, it moves us around, you know.

[62:33]

So we're challenged. We're challenged. That's good, you know. Then we can get skillful. Okay? The question about the soup, right. The term interdependence. When I hear the word interdependence, I guess what I'm trying to do is there seems to be there's the independent and then there's the interdependent. There's the independent and there's the interdependent, yeah. Interdependent is kind of like the carrots and the independent would be the carrots, the onion, the celery, the soup. Right. And yet they're all interconnected. Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah, well you just said

[63:43]

that you have a sense of separate things connected. So if you have a sense of separate things connected then they're going to seem separate. Okay? So it's hard for there to be connection without a sense of separation. And it's also hard to have a sense of separation with no connection. Right. But interdependence is not quite the same as separation and connection. Although that could be part of the picture of interdependence. Interdependence is that this thing, whatever it is, depends on the other thing. It's not just that they're connected, they're dependent on each other. In other words, for example, right now, if you weren't there, I wouldn't be here. It's not just that we're connected and that there's a sense of separation. Interdependence is there's no Reb separate from David. There isn't one. And there's no David separate from Reb. And yet, it doesn't mean you and I are the same. We're different, a little bit different, but we're inseparable.

[64:44]

Because you cannot have one of us without the other. Interdependence. Yes, that's the same thing. Yeah, you can take the interdependence away, no problem, because that's interdependent too. The interdependence is empty too. Interdependence isn't a thing either. Because you can't have interdependence without the stuff that makes it up. So it lacks, it doesn't have any kind of, any place to grab it. You can't grab the interdependence and you can't grab the things. When you grab the things, you get interdependence. When you grab interdependence, you get things. See? And when you grab emptiness, you just get a thing. When you grab a thing, you get emptiness. So everything is ungraspable and this is the soup. Exactly.

[65:46]

Yeah. Right. Or it's not exactly form is emptiness. It's not exactly that Reb is David. It's rather that when you have Reb, immediately you have David and Linda and Lin. You never have Reb without these other things. But it's not that I'm you and you're me. It's just that I'm not really, I'm not really different and I'm not the same. It's just that there isn't any me without you and vice versa and vice versa for everything. So nothing can be grasped. And that's why everything can move and that's why, you know, we can, let me say, we can stride boldly through the world with vitality because we're not rigid fixed things. When you make things rigid and fixed, you have death of the thing. When you seek for something else, then you're trying to give birth to something else. This is the cycle of suffering. So we have to relax

[66:48]

with this immensely complex process we have to learn how to do that. And then we join the illumination of this the way we really are which completely includes that there's the interdependent arising of the illusion of our separateness and there's the interdependent arising of all the contraction that arises with that sense of separation and the seeking. So that happens too. So that's part of it. It isn't just that we enter into the illumination of the freedom, we also enter into the illumination of the suffering. There was a hand. Let's see. There was here and there and in between. And here. Okay. And there. Okay. Boom. My question is how do you possibly put this practice into controlling and being a child of teenagers? How do you put this into the situation of giving up control and having a teenager?

[67:48]

Okay. Well, one way you do it is like this. Every time you meet your teenager, you bow. And then they say, Have you been to Zen Center, Mom? That's weird. You know? And some of them think it's weird. But anyway, they also kind of probably feel like hmm, it's weird but it wasn't really the rudest thing she's ever done to me. And when you bow like this, it's not like this. It's like this. Your child kind of appreciates that you're kind of disarming yourself. Most kids, you know, like their mothers to care about them. They do. They really like when their mothers care about them. But they don't particularly like that their mother is trying to control them. Most kids do not like it. What they like is you to be devoted to them without trying to control them. They do. They like that

[68:51]

you're willing to give your whole life. They like that part. But they do not like that you're trying to get them to do this or that. They don't like that. They don't want that. They don't want it. So taking these grippers and putting them into Gassho, they like that. I'm here to serve you, dear. And one of the ways I'm here to serve you is to tell you sometimes I do not want you to do such and such. And you are not my daughter. You are not my son. And you say that. But you don't say that to get them to do something. You tell them that because that's the way you feel. You are not my son. And they say, well, why are you telling me that if I'm not your son? Why do you go up and tell me that? Because you are my son. That's why I'm telling you that. And I'm not telling you that to get you something. I'm telling you that because I do not like it when you do blah, blah, blah. I hate it when you do that.

[69:52]

And I want you to know that this is the mother you have. See? And you say that to show them who you are and you give them the gift of who you are, which is that you really respect them and you really love them and you're not trying to control them. And that's all they need to know. And then they have to go and do their mistakes. And you can't stop them. If you try to stop them, you'll kill them, more or less. And of course, in many stories of children, of parents getting control of their kids, and there's only one thing the kid can do once the parents get control of them, is they kill themselves. Because the parents got control of them, the kids lost his life. And he wants to say, Dad, congratulations, you got control of me. Now, here, have a dead son. Get the idea, Daddy? So don't try to control your children. Give it up. But be devoted to them. Walk with them

[70:54]

wherever they go. Keep track of them all the time and keep telling them what you want and how you feel. But do that to give them the gift of who you are. The gift of who you are. The gift of who you are. The gift of who you are. They care about that a lot. And they also care if you're trying to control them. But basically, when you try to control them, they care, but they also do not like it and they will try to get away. And mostly, they'll be trying to get away from your control. Then it's hard for them to see what they want. All they know is they want to get out of your control. Why don't you give up control and then help them find out what they want? And part of the way they find out what they want is to find out what you don't like. That's an ingredient in helping them find out what it is. But basically, we have to respect this life form called your own children. This monstrous life form of a real wild energy.

[71:55]

You have to respect that. You have to bow down to it like you bow down to an altar of Aphrodite. It's a force of nature you're dealing with here. It's not to be controlled, it's to be appreciated and be devoted to and to express yourself with. So I often tell the example of a certain young lady that was living with me and her mother and she was quite mature in terms of she had quite a number of years under her belt. She was quite mature. She was like 19 and she spent the whole summer saying that she thought she should get a job and not going to look for a job. Now, by the time she got up out of bed it was too late to go look. And then it was time for me to leave. I had to go away for a while to a training period and I did not want

[72:57]

her mother to be left alone with her not even going to look for a job. So I said to her after the whole summer of not looking for a job I said if you don't get a job in one week I would like you to move out. I said that to her and when I said it to her I looked her in the eye and didn't blink and I watched the face of this dear sweet thing that I love as much as I love anything. I didn't I looked to see the face how that face looked. I watched and it was alright. The face was alright and that's what I said and that's what I said. But I I was not telling her that to get control of her. I was telling her that to let her know how I feel and what I wanted. And she listened to me quite well and she said well what if I can't find what if I move out

[73:59]

where am I going to live? And I said that would be for you to figure out. I think you can figure that out just like I think you can get a job. And she said okay and she walked out of the room and she went into her room and she closed the door but she did not break the door. Usually a lot of times she would like really slam it hard and knock the you know the brace on the door off the wall and then I would pound it back in. But she took it pretty well at that time and before that by the way I talked to her mother to tell her mother what I was going to tell her to see if her mother agreed and her mother said yeah okay I feel okay about you saying that. And after I said it her mother said you know I don't agree with you anymore. And I said well then she knows this is what her father feels and her mother feels differently. But anyway

[74:59]

I said it and she knew that's what I felt and you know I did feel that and I actually did want her to move out if she didn't get a job in a week. But I didn't say that to try to control her. I said it to her to talk to her and I would say right now that I tried to bow to her while I was talking to her. In my heart I washed her face and the face I was looking at is a face I really love and I really respect but I have to tell this face that if this body and mind doesn't get a job which I know it can get in a week that I want this body and mind to get out of the house and go you know live someplace else. That's what I wanted that's what I had to say respectfully. That's what I thought would be best. So anyway it had a happy ending which many of you know. The next morning at the unheard of hour of like somewhere before eight o'clock this daughter of mine

[75:59]

was you know walking around the house when I got back from meditation she was up and somewhat dressed and perky and I said I think I said I don't know what I said if I said it or she said it but I said I was going to go to San Francisco to go swimming and I said if you want to I'll give you a ride if you want to go look for a job and she said okay. And she even asked me what to wear which she never asked me. And I suggested you know which pair of shoes to wear and she wore the pair I suggested but I didn't tell her that to get her to wear the pair of shoes I suggested this is like an unheard of event for me I never like was into like getting her to dress the way I want to but I thought I think that's a better thing to wear to look for a job that's all. So we went in there and I went swimming and then she and then when I came back from swimming she was waiting for me and she was sitting

[77:00]

in a chair in the waiting room outside where I go swimming and you know how sometimes women cross their legs and they sort of bounce one of the feet you know what I mean how they do that cross the legs and have one leg bounce she was doing that and she said guess what and I said I didn't guess I said what she said I got two jobs and then she said do you think I got those jobs because of what you said to me last night and I said I don't know and that was the right answer I didn't I actually didn't know I don't know how this works but the point is I wasn't saying that to her to control her I was saying it to her and it had this result it could have had a different result and I I would have gone with that and tried to do the same thing with that of course I was happy with what's happened and I knew she could get a job all she had to do was get up and go ask for one

[78:01]

because she's you know if she wants a job pretty much she can get a job I mean she's not going to ask she didn't go to the UC Medical Center and ask for a job as a doctor because she hasn't graduated from medical school but there's most of the jobs that she would think of doing she can get if she just goes in there and says well here I am and I want this job and I'll do it I mean most people say okay fine when somebody actually like but if you go in a job and say I don't want this job they say okay you don't have to have it you know but that's the way a lot of our children ask for jobs they go and say my parents are forcing me to be here so you know I don't want this job you probably don't want me right no well they didn't give me a job so anyway and she said and that was the end of that and now since that time you know six years she's been working fairly nicely you know no more she got over that phase and I played my role and I didn't control her

[79:01]

I didn't control her I did not control her I did not control her she did what she did it wasn't because I controlled her but I did express myself it wasn't like I was just sitting there trying to like relax relax and not say anything I was relaxing but in my relaxed state I had something to say guess what your father has something to say to you that's who I am and in a relaxed way I'm going to talk to you and I'm going to look at you when I talk to you and I'm going to tell you what I have to say and it was hard it's hard to look somebody in the eye that you really love and tell them something that you know they do not want to hear usually you look away at some point you flinch because you do not want to see this face that you love being hurt by you telling them how you feel so you look away but when you look away you don't know what was there and you don't know maybe when you looked away they were alright but maybe they collapsed you have to watch to see if they're okay

[80:02]

because if you tell them something and it hurts them maybe you change what you're going to say but she was okay I could see that she was fine she was and she still is but I still have to sometimes say to her like yesterday I said to her I said I want to ask you a really big favor and she didn't say what is it she said they usually say what is it no, no I didn't say that I said I want to ask you a really big favor will you do it I asked her beforehand will you do it before I asked her and she said yes and I said I'll say it again to you I said I want to ask you a really big favor

[81:02]

will you do it and again usually they say what is it she did not say what is it she said yes before she found out what it was because she knew I was going to ask her a really big favor it's going to be a big one and it really was is a big one and she said yes I'll do it and then she said what is it and then I said I would like you to increase the distance between the front of your car and the back of cars in front of you and this was yesterday morning and about a week before we were driving together on highway 101 and she was close to some cars in front of her on the highway and I talked to her about it and she said you know

[82:02]

it would really be hard for me to give up tailgating I love it I didn't ask her at the time I just talked to her about it you know but you know that little guy who was sitting next to me you know he's in the car right I love my daughter and I love her little boy I do not want them I do not want them to get hurt and she knows I don't and I would like her to not be so close to those cars she's young she's smart she's quick she can probably not get in an accident but she I don't want her to test her skill like that and she said okay but I'm not trying to control her I'm just trying to say I'm asking you to stay farther away from those cars and so we're driving along she says how's this I said this is fine how's this? fine so but I'm not trying to control her I'm not trying to control her because I know I can't control her driving I can't

[83:03]

but I want her to hear me to hear her father say I want you to do this that's all I can do and hear herself saying yes I'll do it and then see what she does but I did my part of saying please do this big favor for me okay yes yeah yeah she's saying that she finds that interdependence really comes out in the activity of the relationship yeah and you'd like to have that

[84:05]

you'd like to be mindful of that all the time well may I make a suggestion that you bring it out that you bring it out if you miss it bring it out express that you'd like to make that point you're welcome to do so if you feel like it hasn't been made enough so how about now has it been made enough huh? huh? is it is it an action now enough? okay good thank you I think I don't know who's next was it both of you over there? okay okay Jackie okay fine yes yes

[85:11]

yes uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh that's how you feel if there's a way out of it I'd like to know about it okay well one of the things that I heard you say was that this this thing about non-attachment and emptiness it's like a pretend thing well it's a striving towards but in reality as long as we have feelings right so in reality when you have a feeling uh-huh okay if you're striving

[86:16]

to get out of that feeling that keeps you in the realm of bondage to feelings and for example to pretend that you understand interdependence and pretend that everything's empty that you think everything's empty when actually you think emptiness is a bunch of junk silliness unreality okay not real I'm saying if you're having moments of revelation but quickly you revert back to your sense of separateness and okay so you have moments of revelation and you revert to a sense of separation and what I'm and what I would suggest is in the moment of feeling separation that you don't pretend to not be having a feeling of separation and maybe you say just like you're saying now I really have a feeling of separation and if you can say that fully without wishing that you didn't have

[87:17]

a feeling of separation may I say something? sure it's not so much the separation that I feel yes it's more that this attachment that comes up through the emotion okay so in a moment of attachment so you have a moment of revelation and then you said revert or anyway a strong attachment comes up yeah a strong attachment comes up and what I would suggest is that when the attachment comes up you learn this practice of joining your palms and bowing to the attachment if you understood emptiness in the moment of revelation you understand the attachment is an attachment and that's all it is is an attachment it's nothing more than that it's just it's just an attachment that's all it is and then you revert

[88:17]

to thinking that attachment is like really something more than just an attachment it's like real there you go you think attachment is your whole being attachment isn't your whole being but you think it is and you say it's not just a concept but I say it is just a concept oh you say it is just a concept ok fine it's just a concept but whatever it is if you can meet it with non-attachment you can become free of the attachment and then you have a revelation and then after the revelation another big attachment comes up and then if you can meet that with relaxation then you can understand that attachment so you keep getting challenged after every revelation your reward for the revelation is another challenge oh you think you got free ok how about this

[89:18]

and then if you can relax with that you get free and they say oh you think you're free how about this and then when you try to let go of grasping and seeking that itself is grasping right so don't try to let don't try to let go of grasping and seeking don't try to let go because that would just be more the same wouldn't it that's what you just said right so I would recommend you give up that practice give up the practice of trying to give up grasping and seeking give it up ok thank you she's free of that practice so there's so many hands I don't know you know what to do here yeah on the same lines you know those two hands you were showing us the two hands when the

[90:20]

when you're in this freedom then all hindrances dissolve all the things that I thought were a problem aren't a problem then similar to what was just said then there comes some suffering right suffering comes ok and you say relax with it you're suggesting meeting the suffering with an attitude of freedom as if they weren't separate whoa as if they weren't separate that suffering isn't just some concept though it's actually body mind experience right but if it's a body mind experience then what is it it's a concept or it's a feeling or it's a mental formation

[91:21]

or it's a physical thing or it's a consciousness it's one of those five here's the experience ok now let's relax with that ok let's relax with it ok are you relaxing with it right yeah right yeah what if you were right so what did you yeah so yeah right you might you might exactly you might what it might happen it might happen let's get ready for that cause it might happen it might happen yeah right you could you know you're alive anything can happen anything can happen you're telling me to relax with that right I'm telling you to relax with it but I'm telling you to relax with like what's happening rather than relax with having gotten yourself under control so some people think ok I'll get myself under control then I can relax I'll make myself into a good driver

[92:23]

and then I'll relax when I'm driving I'm saying since anything can happen let's relax with that there's also part of the experience is I can't stand it right I can't be there right I can't be there right so I have to kill that maybe I take drugs maybe I turn on the TV right right exactly there's that feeling I can't be here there's that feeling there is that feeling I can't stand this what do you advise? listen to the listen listen I can't stand this Avalokiteshvara would just listen to I can't stand this Avalokiteshvara wouldn't say don't say that wouldn't say hush little baby but just first of all Avalokiteshvara hears I cannot stand this I can't be here I hear you dear I hear you and then after listening you might have something to say like your daddy's rich

[93:19]

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