I was wondering if I heard it correctly about the inconceivable mind is in the unconscious of the big mind? I would say that what I call the unconscious mind or unconscious cognition is inconceivable. And the way the unconscious process works is inconceivable. I'm telling you that it's inconceivable, but the word inconceivable doesn't reach the actual inconceivability, of course. So we have a mind, living beings have a mind, which is partly conceivable, which we call consciousness.

[01:04]

We have another realm of mind which is non-conscious. And that realm is inconceivably beautiful and complex and interrelated. there's some interrelation maybe appearing within consciousness. You know, we have stories of interrelationship in consciousness, but those stories are an extremely diminished version of our relationships. Our conscious stories of relationship are extremely reduced diminished versions of our actual relationship, which is going on in our inconceivable body and inconceivable mind. Now, is that clear? May I ask you another question? Sure. When I think of unconscious, I think of

[02:08]

self-destructive ways of being. Is that included in this inconceivable unconscious? The inconceivable unconscious is the support for habitual behavior that appears in consciousness. So, for example, I might, some things might happen and I might notice that I have in consciousness something might appear and I might notice an habitual reaction to that. And that habitual reaction is what we call action. Habitual reaction, habitual action is the action of me. And then I might see you acting too, and I think that's not me, that's you. But me thinking that that's not me, that's not you, is also what we call action or karma. And that karmic activity is supported by this inconceivable unconscious cognitive process.

[03:22]

The unconscious cognitive process is not conscious, there's not somebody there. thinking, oh, I'm doing this and I'm supporting conscious life. Also, the unconscious cognitive process is very intimate with the inconceivable body. The inconceivable unconscious process is very intimate with the inconceivable body. The inconceivable body, however, is not cognition. Cognition serves the inconceivable body, and the inconceivable body which is supported by the inconceivable cognitive process, that together they support a conceivable realm of consciousness in which there appears a dream about the inconceivable body, again, highly diminished version of our body. So like right now I see these hands moving,

[04:26]

and these hands are a highly reduced version of my hands. It's not that I don't have hands, it's just that what's supporting the appearance of these hands is an inconceivable body, which might have hands but they don't look like this. This is the way my hands look in consciousness to me, and this is how they appear to you. But there's, in a sense, another body which doesn't appear like this, which is supporting a cognitive process which supports a consciousness in which these appear. And the way these fingers are moving here is supported by a cognitive process which is much more complex than anything in consciousness. I can't consciously figure out how to move these fingers, but they are being manipulated in relationship to my consciousness by the unconscious.

[05:30]

And the unconscious process is constantly being transformed by the conscious process. So, for example, if you study the teachings about the relationship between conscious process and unconscious process, you study them basically in consciousness. But studying these teachings about consciousness and its unconscious cognitive support transforms the unconscious cognitive support so you consciously understand differently as you study more. And you actually can finally be somebody who can kind of remember what these teachings are. Because at first they're kind of new for most people. Thanks for the question. Is that to come up, Rita? I would have invited Laura to come up, but she's kind of trapped back there. She's trapped in consciousness.

[06:32]

Whereas you're in a consciousness that had an exit. Please sit down. Actually, if you use it, If you use it, you'll find that it's not turned on. Well, talk loudly. Go ahead and talk loudly. That'll be fine. It's a quick question anyway. I was thinking when we chant, when we do the chant for Uriyoki, we mention pure Dharmakaya. Yeah, pure Dharmakaya. And what I wondered is this inconceivable body that you mentioned, is that the same thing as the pure Dharmakaya? I can't remember the first part of the chant for some reason. Yeah, so is this body and is this cognitive process the same as the Dharmakaya you're asking?

[07:38]

This inconceivable body that you mentioned, yes. the way this inconceivable body, inconceivable mind is working, the way it includes all of our relationships and how we are... aiding all beings and being aided by all beings, the actual process of that consciousness in that body is the pure Dharma body. The actual body and the actual cognition is still supporting, part of its function is it's still supporting consciousnesses which have these stories of activities which are not everybody's activity.

[08:46]

So the unconscious process is partly defiled because it supports a consciousness which is deceptive. So in consciousness, deceptive appearances occur. Like there's the appearance of me doing something that's not you doing something. And me saying something that's not your speech. These are deceptions. And to some extent, this inconceivable cognitive process supports that. But also in the inconceivable cognitive process, in the inconceivable body, there is the support of liberation from this deception. That part is the Dharma body. the way the process which supports delusion is actually functioning is also simultaneously, while it allows the continued support for deluded consciousness to arise, it is simultaneously transforming the whole process by the reality of the process.

[10:11]

But as you see, even if there was such a pure wisdom which is inseparable from delusion and the support of delusion, it looks like it has not been completely possible to transform the basis for all delusion yet, because there's still deluded consciousness. So this inconceivable body and inconceivable mind has two parts. One part supports ongoing bondage and suffering, and another part supports liberation from this. And the part that supports liberation is the wisdom body of that mind, which is never separate from that mind. The way everything's working is not separate from the way things support misconceptions of the way things are working.

[11:13]

Thank you for your question. So did you give up on the speaker? It's okay. Maybe the people can speak loudly. Part of the reason we have the microphone is so everybody can hear the question. Another part of the reason I have a microphone is when people come up here I can hear them better too. Any other things you'd like to discuss? You were talking about karma today again and you were talking about karma today again and I found myself confused about what you said that karma is just intentional action.

[12:35]

Yeah, the definition of karma is intention and so the activities, for example, a thought of, I want to talk kindly to Michael, that thought is an example of karma. And then if I actually try to speak that way or make a gesture that way, that's also karma. But, let's see, if you tap my knee in the right spot and my knee and my foot jumps out, I didn't intend to do that, but it was an action, but it wasn't intentional. That's not karma. However, the picture of my leg and you tapping my knee, that picture appears in karmic consciousness where I have the thought, oh, you tapped my leg and my leg moved.

[13:37]

That's intention. And the activity and the body appearing is supported by, again, a realm that's not karmic. The unconscious realm is not karmic. It's not an active cognition. It's the result of past karma. So the unconscious realm is not karmic. It's karmic result. The conscious realm is supported by the karmic result in which new karma can occur. So in a way I think that 99% of my motivations I'm not aware of. 99%? Maybe, I don't know, it's possible. Whatever. This 99%, 100% of the support for the motivations that occur in consciousness, 100% of the support for the motivations that arise in consciousness, are not karma.

[14:45]

They're the results of karma. And you're not conscious of what supports. Like, for example, if you think, I would like to be kind, you're 100% unconscious of what made that thought arise. But I think maybe you're more than 99% unconscious of your motivation and consciousness. I think sometimes you see your motivation. More than one in a hundred times, I think. I think you did better than that. So in consciousness you can be one hundred percent aware of what your intention is. But most people are somewhere above one and below one hundred. For example, my fingers just moved. I saw them move, but I did not intend to move them. So what I observed was a movement of my fingers. I saw another one just then.

[15:46]

And you just laughed. But you didn't intend to laugh, I don't think. That's my story. And he just shook his head too, but I don't think he intended to shake his head. And he smiled again. So a lot of things we do are not intentional. But a lot of things we do are intentional. And those are the karmic things, and you can be aware of them. So when you came up here, you may not have been aware. I intend to go up there, but you could have been. And I think more than one in a hundred times you are aware, I want to do this. And you see, oh, I actually do want to do this. Like today when I was giving a talk, I was watching myself tell you what I wanted to do. Many times I noticed that. Partly it makes it easier to notice what your intentions are if you say, I intend to do this. makes it easier.

[16:49]

It makes it easier to know what your intentions are if you say, I want this, I wish this. So that kind of language of articulating your wishes will help you tune into your intentions. I think what I meant when I said I'm just aware maybe 1% of my motivation is that In my karmic consciousness, there appears a justification or a reasoning for why I'm doing things, but the reasons lie in my unconscious. The reasons are inconceivable. And so in a way, if I just react habitual, I'm Continuing my karma without being aware of it? If you do karma and you're not aware of it, that tends to promote a lack of remembering what you really want in life.

[18:05]

And that tends to promote the appearance of what you don't want in life. So it is recommended that you try to become mindful of what you want and start to notice that what you want is often right there in consciousness. For example, if you notice some justification going on, if you want to free all beings so that they may dwell in peace, then it would be recommended that you be mindful that there was some justification going on there, or attempt to justify. Say, oh, there seems to be somebody who's trying to justify some of his actions or some of his opinions. I guess somebody would like to see the justification occur.

[19:14]

At that time you're actually doing what's necessary in order to become free of karmic consciousness. I didn't get that. To observe these stories that are going on in consciousness and in particular example the story of some justifications would be possible here. And maybe the justification would be the justification of my view. To be aware of that story is necessary in order that that story will not hinder the inconceivable process of your actual life. But normally, in karmic consciousness, these stories are appearing. Like, we're in this room together, and Stephen coughed really nicely, and you coughed well too.

[20:26]

And I'm giving people compliments. And I'm a nice guy. These kind of stories occur. Or I'm not a nice guy. And I'm being unkind. These stories occur. Okay? What's possible here is to notice, oh, storytelling is going on. And this is not actually what's going on. This is just a reduced version of what's going on. He's my friend. That's not a bad story, but that's a reduced version of our friendship. And no matter how much I think, or justify my friendship, or justify your friendship, or promote our friendship consciousness, no matter what story I have, if I grasp that story, that grasping will obscure the actual inconceivable process of our working together to free all beings so they may dwell in peace.

[21:29]

But we like stories about how we're helping everybody become free. So? I don't know if we like it. We're addicted to them. So there's stories like, I was helpful or I wasn't helpful appearing. And we're not trying to stop the stories. We're trying to meditate on them. to look at them and remember that they're stories, they're conscious, reduced versions of our actual relationships. And then if we don't grasp these stories, if we don't tighten on these stories, then we don't tighten on the inconceivable. And if we don't tighten on the inconceivable, the inconceivable can use us for realization. but we're addicted or have a strong habit to have a consciousness wherein stories of our life together appear.

[22:40]

Okay? And we also are somewhat addicted to grasping those stories as what's actually going on. But it does happen that human beings can loosen their grip on their stories. It does happen. And even if it doesn't happen, it does happen that people think it would be a good idea if other people loosened their grip on their stories. So even though I might be gripping my stories, I think it would be good if you didn't grip yours. Even of me being a good person. I actually, but certainly maybe not a below average person. So I often tell the story of my wife and I having dinner together with another couple, and my wife said to the male, it was a male-female couple, she said to the male, where do you work?

[23:42]

And he says, I work at UC Irvine. And she said, what's Irvine like? And he said, it's beautiful. And his spouse said, it's ugly. And he said, it's ugly. And my wife said to me, you should learn that. So he was demonstrating perhaps a little bit of not grasping his story of Irvine, California being beautiful. But he did have that story. But the story Irvine's beautiful, it doesn't reach Irvine. Irvine is inconceivably beautiful, inconceivably ungraspable. And so is everything else. But we're addicted to make a story, Irvine's beautiful.

[24:46]

And then somebody else says, it's ugly. If we're not holding on really tightly to Irvine being beautiful, we can say, it's ugly. But that doesn't mean that someone would say, well, you're betraying your own version of reality. It doesn't mean now you grasp Irvine's ugly, and you're secretly holding on to that it's beautiful. It just means, well, I did think it was beautiful. It's true. Did you think it was beautiful before your wife said it was ugly? Yes. Did you believe it? No. So when she said it's ugly, it wasn't that difficult for me to say it's ugly. But I don't believe it's ugly now either. I don't know what Irvine is. Let me tell you what Irvine is. I don't know. Let me tell you who you are. I don't know. But I do have a story about you being a man and you being a woman. I have that story. But I don't want to hold on to those stories as who you really are. I just want to admit I got a consciousness that is a story about every one of you, every moment.

[25:47]

It's an amazing thing, this consciousness. It can make stories about, you know, a hundred people like that. And the next moment, again. And let them change and hold on to all of them. Or it can notice that holding on to any of them is stressful. you can hear the teaching, holding on a little bit to one story. Even if I let most of you go and held on to one of you, that one holding on would block the door to the inconceivable liberation of all beings, which is the same as the inconceivable way that would have the same practice and the same enlightenment. But part of the work is to notice the story. And part of the work is to live in a community where people tell you that your story is whatever, stupid, inside out, an opportunity for you to give up your story, and then watch to see if you can give it up.

[26:48]

And not grab their story either, but listen to it. Or listen to their story, and give up their story, and giving up their story, give up your story. We're helping each other let go of our stories which are appearing in consciousness. So very simple, holding on to anything means you're holding on to your story of anything. Because the way things really are, you cannot get a hold of them because everything's an inconceivable process. There's no place to grab on because you're involved in it. You reach for somebody else and you wind up with your nose in your hand. There's nobody out there separate from you. Everybody out there is really showing you who you are. But we have to do the work of noticing what our intention is and also notice that our intention is actually to notice our story of our intention.

[27:54]

I intended, I'm intending to talk to you about this matter right now And you can tell me, you're not intending to talk to me about this thing. You're just trying to one-up me. And then can I listen to that as a new, wonderful story, equally good to the one I just told? But neither one are worthy of attachment. But I could attach to mine, then you tell me yours, and I could attach to yours, and I could switch back, and then suffering, suffering, suffering, suffering. So you can notice, we can notice our intentions, we can notice our stories, and we can notice our clinging. And we can notice that sometimes, wow, there was a little flexibility there. How wonderful. Let's try that again. Any other things you'd like to talk about?

[29:02]

Goodbye, Daniel. Great to see you. Congratulations. I've been reading some Zen stories lately. And this one story, a monk comes to the teacher and he asks, what is the Buddha? And the teacher answers, three pounds of hemp. And I was wondering if you would say that his answer was pointing at the inconceivable wisdom body. Well, I hear you saying that. But before you gave me something to agree to, and if you just said, what was his response? I would say his response was part of his unceasing effort, or anyway, his effort at that moment to free all beings so they could dwell in peace.

[30:26]

And in particular, for one example of a being he was wanting to free was this monk asking him a question about what's Buddha. He wanted to free this monk from his story of Buddha. That's what I would say. That would be my story. Now, what was your story? My story was that the answer was, well, you know, on first blush the answer is nonsensical. Or you could say the story is not according to most people's conception. Right. And then on thinking deeper about it and hearing you talk, I came up with that possibility. What was it? That the answer was pointing to the inconceivable wisdom body. Oh, that's the part that I kind of didn't agree with.

[31:29]

I don't think it's pointing. I don't think it's pointing. I think it's trying to open the monk to it. Because pointing, then he tightens around the pointing. You know, if you point, he might say, well, rather than... It's not over there. The inconceivable body is not over there, so I don't really point to... As a matter of fact, this person who told this story, who said three pounds of hemp, his name was Dung Shan. And people asked him about his own teacher. And his own teacher was not one of the real famous great Zen masters of the time. And he, the person who said, three pounds of hemp, he visited many great teachers and they thought he was great. And he could have become their disciples.

[32:29]

But somehow he didn't. He became disciples of this kind of not very spectacular Zen teacher named Yuen Yuen. And people said, why did you become his successor when you met all these other great teachers? And he says, well, you know, it's not his great understanding that I appreciate. What I appreciate is he never really pointed at anything. I thought he said he never explained anything. Yeah, never explained, never directly pointed. He never, the Chinese is swa pa, which means to indicate. He didn't explain or indicate anything. So what does Deng Xiaon say? What does Buddha, he says, three pounds of hemp. That doesn't exactly explain what Buddha is. So nobody can explain what Buddha is. I mean, I shouldn't say people can try, but that will just be people explaining. Buddha cannot be explained. However, some teachers can open you to Buddha and let you go in and hang out with Buddha.

[33:33]

But if they point towards anything, they distract you from opening to everything. And Buddha isn't that. Buddha is the way that is working together with all the thises. And nobody can point at that. So that's why I think this tradition is a good example of this tradition. This three pounds of hemp tradition is a tradition where the students are sincerely asking the teacher and the teacher is sincerely not going to point them anywhere. And by not pointing them, maybe they'll open. Well, since he's not going to point at anything, maybe I'll just open to reality. Go ahead. That would be my story, which I'm not going to adhere to. Thank you for freeing me from my story. I'm so happy you're free of your story. And please free me from mine. So that's part of what we're doing here is we're freeing each other.

[34:37]

Our unceasing effort to free all beings from their stories so they may dwell in peace. How? There are at least two varieties of anger that I can think of. Sudden anger and what I would call cultivated anger. There are two types of anger that I can think of. Sudden anger and cultivated anger, which is what I would call it. Like anger that you cultivate over time. Is that like abiding in anger? I suppose it would be. You mean like anger that you feel for somebody that you also felt anger with them yesterday and today you're a little bit more into it?

[35:40]

Right, you're really grasping at it. Okay. So my question is... And there's a third variety. Will you tell me now or later? Whenever you want. Okay, later. My question is, is one or both of those two types of anger I described karmic? If you're like checking your, studying yourself, and you say, oh, I hate that person, and you you know, and for good reason, you know. And yesterday they did bad stuff too, and you know, they'll probably always be that way. And you notice that I'm thinking that about them. Or even if you don't notice, if in fact your view is, I have these thoughts about that person, that's karmic.

[36:50]

But the other one where somebody bumps into you and you just He's just kind of like, I wish they'd die. I wish they would die. That's karmic, too. I wish they would die. Or I think they're stupid and below average. Okay. I wasn't really thinking about... Both are karmic, according to that story. about anger that you actually considered for... Could I just mention, I have a story to tell about my daughter, remind me. I wasn't thinking about anger that, like you just described, where you thought about it for a brief period of time and said, I wish that person would die. Not even... Thinking more of, like, just jolted by sudden anger. Well, that's what I meant. You didn't really have control over it. You're not in control of karma. No karmic act are you in control of.

[37:52]

What controls karma is this inconceivable cognitive process and the inconceivable body that it lives with. That's what gives rise to karma. But there's no controller down there saying, okay, now, it's an inconceivable process which gives rise to the conception. Yeah. and I'm feeling that for that person. The I'm feeling, the I'm doing the feeling for that person, and it is negative. That is not in the control of the conscious mind. And even if the person thinks, I just controlled myself into hating that person, which in your case, a lot of people say, actually I didn't control that. It just popped up. And the one where you're doing it over and over about somebody or something, You're not in control of that either, even though you might think so. You might think, I'm in control of this one but not this one, or vice versa, or neither, or both.

[38:54]

Those are more, and I'm thinking those thoughts and I have those opinions, that's more karma. These are more stories. So you would say that overall anger is karma? No, it's not that anger is karma. It's that the thought, this is my anger, or I'm feeling this anger, that it's intentional is what makes it karmic. It's possible that anger would arise and it wouldn't be karmic in a consciousness which does not believe that story. So wisdom can come into consciousness and anger can arise where there's freedom from the idea of, I did it, or somebody else did it, or I'm to blame or somebody else is to blame.

[39:57]

For example, you can see someone who's about to hurt himself and just shout, No! And you don't think, You did it. It's like somebody tapped your knee and your foot flapped out. It's like you're serving, everybody wants you to say no. There's a non-karmic, there's a non-karmic anger. And that anger is the anger of the great assembly. That's the anger that everybody's doing. Nobody. It's the anger that all living beings feel for this little girl getting hurt. If there's anybody in the universe that wants this little girl to get hurt, that's them. That's that one person that wants them to get hurt. They don't share that with everybody. But what we share with everybody is nobody wants this beautiful creature to be hurt.

[41:05]

That's what we share. Everybody wants this person not to be hurt. That's the Buddha mind seal. And that Buddha mind seal, which everybody shares in, and nobody wants his child to get hurt, that Buddha mind seal says, no. And it's not karmic. It is wisdom in action. But it looks just like anger. It's like, no! And there was nothing, you know, and there's nothing left of it. It's total combustion. It's total freedom. It's just, that's it. Is that a lion's roar? That's a lion's roar. You're welcome. And the third anger. The third anger? I just told you. The third anger is anger that should be expressed.

[42:13]

So we have a precept which is called not being angry. It's not don't be angry. It's not being angry. And one of the meanings of not being angry is to be angry when you should be and to not be angry when you shouldn't be. You should not be angry with people who are being kind to you. You should not be angry to people who are helping you. That's what it means to not be angry. But you should be angry when it helps people. You should be. And that anger is not karmic. That's the anger which everybody wants you to do. Everybody wants you to yell at that child so that she does not walk into the street. It's not a personal thing. And when it happens, you don't think you did it. And afterwards you might say, how wonderful that that happened.

[43:17]

How did it happen? I would never have been able to say no that way. All beings supported that no, and I was the mouthpiece. And you could also say yes angrily, too. And there's tremendous power in it because it's not your action which is not other people's actions. It's your action which is everybody's action. We should express the anger that benefits and liberates. we should not express the anger that doesn't benefit and liberate. And there's many stories of where somebody speaks for all beings and angrily says, no, and it benefits. And the person who is being said no to is liberated and expresses profound gratitude at that moment and spends the rest of their life

[44:27]

expressing that gratitude for that no, for that anger, which was not personal, which was not of one person alone, but was the anger of the precious mirror samadhi, the anger of the Buddha mind-sealer. Say again. I don't know. But it's possible. that someone might express for the Great Assembly that kind of, no, it's possible. We'd have to look to see if it benefited the people who were shot.

[45:34]

You might be right. If it did, that's the kind of anger that should be expressed. Anger that benefits. People have been angry at me, as you might imagine. I've seen big walls of fire. And looked at them and said, this is love. This massive rage is love. The whole universe is telling me something through this person's anger. This person's anger is twenty feet tall. It's not just one little person. It's the whole universe, and I should listen to it. And the anger probably was, we're not listening. Just like the little girl about to run in the street No! Because she wasn't listening before.

[46:49]

And now she listens. It's a loving anger to protect her from getting hurt. And the little girl who almost went in the street was only about two. But then when she was about eight, we have the next story. So she's having a friend of hers stay over, another little girl staying over, and they have a very nice time together, very harmonious and loving. They're just having a great time. And then the next morning or afternoon, her mother comes to pick her up. And the little girl runs to her mother and jumps in her mother's lap and embraces her. And then the mother and the daughter leave. After they leave, the little girl who didn't walk into the street, fortunately, so that she could grow up to be like I'm telling you, she said to her mother and me, she did that just to hurt my feelings.

[48:00]

You understand? They're so close, and she ran away from my daughter to her mommy. And it hurt my daughter because... They were so close. And my daughter, I think, was a little attached to her dear friend. And she thought her friend did it intentionally. I would guess that the girl intentionally went to embrace her mother, but not to hurt my daughter. I don't know. But my daughter thought she went to embrace her mother just to hurt me. And it did hurt her, I guess. So wasn't it good? I'll tell you later. I'll say it wasn't a good later. So then a little bit later, 15 minutes later or half an hour later, my daughter got on my lap and gave me a hug. And my wife said to my daughter, did you do that just to hurt me? And my daughter said, okay, I'll give her another chance.

[49:04]

Wasn't it good that she didn't go on the street? And then she said, I'll watch her at school tomorrow. Which, in terms of our conversation, means she's going to watch her story of the girl. She wasn't yet that sophisticated to say, I'm going to watch my story of her tomorrow. But in fact, she was going to watch her story of the girl tomorrow. So then she came home from school and we said, well, how did it go? And she said, I saw that I was getting angry at her for what I was thinking about her. She could see that she was getting angry at the girl because of her story about the girl. Wasn't it good that she lived a few more years to become wise at eight years old? That doesn't mean that from that time she remembered that. But there was a moment there where she could see that what she was thinking about the person, what she was angry at.

[50:16]

Not the person. The kind of angry where we're getting angry at the person because we're thinking about him, that's karmic. The kind of angry where we're expressing anger not because of what we think about them, but because we're open to what everybody wants us to do and we've let go of our story about them. So because we let go of our story, we open to everybody's story and we become a servant of the Buddha Mind Seal and we express anger and it's helpful and it protects beings so they can grow up to be Buddhas, so that they can become male and female Buddhas. Anger from that place can really help people.

[51:20]

It's not that common actually for most, you know, Zen teachers, but there's many examples of that because I think we want to see that it's the letting go of the story that opens to the real job we have. And our real job is the same job and the same enlightenment as everybody. That's our actual job. That's actually what's going on, is that we're not acting alone. That's just an illusion. That's just the way things look in karmic consciousness. We're actually acting together. But the way that is, is inconceivable. You cannot see how we're acting together. What time is it now?

[52:25]

That sounds like a really good time for us to say thank you very much.

[52:33]

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