Is there anything you'd like to discuss? Yes. Does abiding help to facilitate our sense of conscience? So do you mean abiding like thoroughly examining something? So the bodhisattva wishes to learn how to thoroughly examine without abiding. So it isn't that we don't care about everything.

[01:02]

It's actually that caring thoroughly brings us to non-abiding. And yeah, so it's possible to care too much about something. over care. That comes from abiding. It's possible to under care. That comes from abiding. So we actually, by thoroughly taking care of things, we find we find non-abiding. And the way we find it is that when you care for something, if you're abiding, the abiding is more visible. So for example, if you're caring for an ethical principle, an ethical precept, if you care for it a little and you're abiding in it, it doesn't bother you too much.

[02:06]

if you perhaps don't take care of it. Like for example, a lot of people when it comes to doing a ceremonial commitment to the precepts, they hesitate because they sense that if they would commit to care more wholeheartedly and get lots of support from the community to care for something, that if they didn't follow through on it, it would bother them more. and they hesitate to enter that more intense situation. Because if you really do care a lot about something, then if there's any clinging, it will show. But it is possible to care. I would say it is possible to care a lot about something and not abide in it.

[03:09]

But again, not caring very much about something doesn't mean you're not abiding. It's just that if you don't care and you're abiding, it isn't so painful. if you're not devoted to someone and you're abiding in them, and then they don't say thank you, it doesn't bother you so much. But if you really care for someone and you're abiding in that and they aren't grateful, you may find that very difficult. So then you might think, well, I'll care less and then it won't be so painful. And that may be right. But then you're still abiding But it doesn't bother you so much. So caring a lot about ethics, people who really care a lot about it, often tend to slip into self-righteousness. And then there's lots of stress in them and the people around them.

[04:14]

They do care, but they're abiding. And then there's stress. They're afraid of not fulfilling their self-righteous situation, and other people are afraid of them. But it isn't that they should care less. It's that they should notice that there's stress around their caring for the ethics. And then when they find the stress, or they'll find the abiding in the ethical thing they're committed to, and then that they're kind to that abiding, their caring doesn't get diminished. Their caring becomes unhindered by the abiding. So in the process of learning ethics most people are already deeply habituated to abiding in things. So when they start to learn ethics they abide in the ethics that they're caring for. And we do want to care for ethics.

[05:20]

And as you start caring for them the, what do you call it, design flaws in your care will cause stress. But if you're kind to it, if you're kind to the design flaw, the design will change from abiding to just caring without abiding. Then you can really now more fully care for ethics when you don't abide in them. So it isn't exactly that you have to abide in order to get to non-abiding. It isn't that it is necessarily that way. It's just that that seems to be, if you use the expression, our destiny, that we come as really good at abiding. We're born, you know, we know how to abide on the nipple. We come knowing how to grasp. It's part of our biological inheritance. And it's necessary for us to evolve.

[06:27]

That's part of our deal. And then we apply the necessary grasping to things that aren't necessary. And then there's unnecessary stress. So I could go on, but it looks like you kind of got it, that the bodhisattvas commit to ethics and they really wholeheartedly do so. And almost always they notice that they're abiding in the commitment. And they notice that it's stressful to abide in their wonderful commitment. Same, the commitment to the vow to live for the welfare of all beings. Making that commitment doesn't mean you don't abide in the commitment. So you abide in the commitment. You notice abiding in the commitment to live for the welfare of beings is a stress factor. But as I also said, if you abide to care for just a few beings, you might not notice the stress factor, because caring for all beings is a bigger care, and the bigger care shows more and more

[07:41]

vividly the clinging. Little cares don't necessarily reveal the clinging. There is probably. That's the usual situation. So we want to amplify the commitments to ethics, to the welfare of beings, so that the gross and subtle abidings are exposed. And then we apply compassion to those abidings and the suffering around them. And then the abiding goes away, but the commitment is now unhindered. Okay? Thanks for your question. Any other things you'd like to discuss? Would you please come up and sit here? I have a seat for you. I have a seat and a microphone. Would you tell me your name? Kim, are you practicing in city center?

[08:47]

I'm embarrassed to be up here asking this question. And it's one of those ones where I felt like I missed just an explanation. So here we are saying this word abiding. So I went back to my room to look it up because, of course, the other place I hear that word, two other places are the do divides and abiding. thinking about the dude abides. Okay, so what does that mean? Excuse me, what's a dude abides? I'm sorry. The dude abides. Oh, the dude abides. The dude abides. The dude. The dude abides. So it's a movie, so it's not important. I mean, that's not the name of the movie. Right movie. It is true. It is a great movie. And I don't know the name of it. But in it, the dude abides. But that's a man, and the dude abides.

[10:06]

Jeff Bridges, right. Jeff Bridges abides. But my question, that's not my question. My question is, but then we use the term abide with our, in this instance, abacus. And so that's why I went home to look it up. How are we using it differently? How do we happen to use the word abiding abbess or abbot? Well, I can tell a story about how we do it, but that will be just a story. So why do we use the word Buddha? Why do we say Buddha? We say Buddha so that we can be taught that when we say Buddha, we understand not Buddha. So we put Buddha out there so we can understand not Buddha.

[11:11]

We put out the marks of Buddha. The Buddha teaches that the marks of Buddha should be understood as no marks of Buddha. Therefore, we say marks of Buddha. We have abiding abbesses so people can realize non-abiding. The purpose for having a Zen center is to realize no Zen center. I mean, part of me wants to say, really? Yeah, probably. And is there another part? There's a small other part. What's the other small part? I can't find it. Okay, all right. Yeah, there's the part that can be found and the part that cannot be found and the part that cannot be found is the ultimate truth. But just not being able to find it is one thing, but not being able to be found is wisdom.

[12:23]

Wisdom cannot be found, and wisdom is the fact that nothing can be found. So in order to help people, we build a Zen Center so they can come and realize that Zen Center cannot be found. And we have abbesses so they can come and realize you can't find the abbess. And we even call the abbess, we say, the findable abbot. So you can go and become free of abiding in Zen Center or precepts. I mean, it's true. So... It's just smarter than I had thought. Yeah. It's very smart. The Dharma is very smart. You're welcome. The Dharma is very smart for smart people.

[13:24]

People are smart. Yes, please come. Yes? Yes? Please come and sit down. And Grace, it's hard for you to get up on the tongue. Please sit down. It's ready to go. All right. Three thank yous and one really important question. It's working out. Three thank yous. Ready? Thank you, first of all, for your life's work. I practice more at San Francisco Zen Center, but it's an important part of my life. Thank you also for... I used to practice there, too. Did you? Yeah. I think I saw your name or picture or something there once. And... I started practicing there right after we moved there in November of 1969. Wow. Yes.

[14:27]

Thank you for today's talk. And thank you, there's a series of talks you did in Sacramento, and there was some little tidbits that I've been practicing in my life that you sort of identified that have been really helpful. Great. And they sound a little similar to what you're explaining here today, but they're really helpful. And the final thank you was, thank you for your, I also practice more regularly at Hartford Streets and Center, which I live right by. And thank you for your part, all of your part in all of that in our ceremony that we had. I spoke to the president of the board this morning. He said, if you get a chance to actually talk to Rep, can you convey our thank you again? And I had a really good abiding question when you were speaking, but I was trying to not abide in it. So I think I forgot it. And so I'm going to ask my incredibly important question I asked about you, of Reverend Mio at Hartford Street Zen Center, that he couldn't answer. And that was, I said, he wears a lot of gray, and he has like a gray ruckus, and I think even maybe a gray okay, so why gray?

[15:31]

What does gray mean? What does gray mean? Gray means... I can't do better than that. Gray means non-abiding. And so is not gray. I like that answer. One could say other things it means, but how's that? That's a great answer. Non-abiding. There it is. Thanks for asking that one. Grace? Okay, great. No.

[16:32]

I've got a statement about abiding. After I was comatose for 42 days, I was non-abiding when I came out of that. I thought everything was great. And I sort of lost my mind. But I think non-abiding is somehow losing your mind. And it's a wonderful, wonderful state of existence. It's not real. It's not human. So I think we may have moments in that we don't abide, but I think abiding is so much harder, and that's our human work. Do you have any statement? Well, I would say we seem to be doing our work. Our human work of abiding seems to be thriving. Well, that's why I wanted to thank you for suffering when you were celebrating over the last days because you weren't abiding.

[17:34]

And I think it's important that we see that. But it's also important to realize that that state doesn't go on. What state doesn't go on? Non-abiding. No, non-abiding doesn't go on. It doesn't start and it doesn't end. Well, abiding doesn't start and it doesn't end. That's non-abiding. That's abiding. You're abiding and non-abiding. Thank you very much. You want to come up? Here. Hi. Hi. I wasn't here for the lecture. I have great gratitude to be here now for the questions and answers. It's a good experience of no duality around abiding and not abiding in outcomes.

[18:38]

Did you say that non-abiding and abiding are not dual? Well, that's what my question was, from listening to the dialogue. What comes to mind, in no mind, as a question, is, could this be what has been discussed around abiding and not abiding? And, Gray, could this be related to no duality? Yes, it could be. You're welcome. You're welcome.

[19:40]

Many years ago in city center, I was at a lecture that Baker Roshi gave. And he raised the question of fundamental intention. And he asked, what is it that you do with every breath? What is your fundamental intention, the thing that motivates your life? And that was sort of a challenge for people to discover. And in the course of it, he talked about fixing your sense of compassion so that you didn't have to think about it creating of it like an unbreakable habit so that when something happened you would respond from compassion you wouldn't leak jealousy or competition or envy or something like that that made a great impression on me and so I guess what I'm asking is

[20:47]

isn't that abiding in compassion? And that's something that I seem to have practiced over the last 39 years. And it doesn't seem to cause me suffering. I seem to suffer when I fail and I abide in judgments, envy, competition, what have you. But when I actually drop everything and remember that fundamental intention, of being with everything in the universe and saying yes to it, it doesn't feel stressful to me. If one wishes to be kind and then one is kind, one often feels good about that. And if one wishes to be kind, aspires to be kind, and then doesn't follow through, one would usually feel sorry about that, regretful.

[21:53]

So, but it's not abiding. I understand. No, no, I'm not saying about abiding or not abiding. I'm just saying if you aspire to be kind and then you don't follow through, if you receive the precept of kindness and you aspire to practice it and then you slip up, you might feel regretful and pain. Right? That's one kind of stress. And that practice of that kind of ethical discipline prepares you to continue to aspire to be kind and notice that even when you're successful, it's still possible to be abiding in that success. Yes, but isn't success like a different category than the compassion itself? Aren't I attaching them to an idea of... Success is different, but I'm saying that if you aspire to compassion, you might feel that you didn't do it.

[23:07]

Yes. So I've changed from the word did do it to didn't do it. When you don't do kindness and you want to do kindness, you feel bad. When you're not careful with people and you aspire to be careful with people, you feel bad. I feel bad when I aspire to be attentive and caring to people and then I notice that I wasn't, I feel bad. And that makes me want to try again more sincerely. And then I do, and sometimes I'm successful and I feel pretty good. Like I wanted to be kind, I wanted to be attentive, and I did okay. That's good. But if I was half-hearted or 10% kind, I'd feel bad. However, even when I aspire to be kind, and I feel like I am, and other people say, thank you, you're so kind, and I feel good about all that, there still can be some abiding.

[24:15]

And how would that manifest? It would be stressful. And the stress might not be very noticeable. And there are stories about people who were very good at aspiring to do good. They did good. And they felt good about it. And their teachers felt good about them doing good. And their teachers said, it's so wonderful to see you. You're doing all these good things around the monastery. It's so uplifting to see how kind you are to the other monks and caring you are to them. You're so happy doing it. I'm so happy seeing it. It'd be nice if you did something spiritual someday. And then the guy says, what do you mean?

[25:22]

And he says, stop trying to get something out of this. So we can do good and feel really good about it, and everybody else can feel good about it. And if we don't do good when we aspire to it, we feel pretty bad. And that's good to feel bad when we're not doing what we want to do. But even when we're doing good and feel good, there still might be a little bit of like trying to get something out of it. And then somebody might say, thank you so much for all you do for the monastery. It would be nice if you tried to stop trying to get something out of this. And then maybe you'd say, how dare you? Or you might, the stories often go that the person wakes up, that they realize there was some subtle clinging in their very consistent many years of devotion to the Sangha and caring for everybody, there was a little bit of abiding there.

[26:29]

And the stress was so small that the teacher had to mention it several times. And then they got it, but it's... Yes, Tyler? One second, Tyler. What time should we end today? It's now 5 o'clock, perhaps? Should we end earlier than we usually do? Well, OK. Thank you.

[27:31]

I had two related questions, and it's kind of building on a few of the comments and questions we've had today. And that was, my first question was around regret. And I've often thought of regret as something that can be a powerful motivator to help us learn lessons that we need to learn. Yeah, regrets. In practicing precepts, we receive the precepts, and we try to receive it correctly understanding what it is from the lineage, from the teacher, then we aspire to it. And then if we don't follow through on that aspiration, we may notice we feel regret. And that regret is also called repentance. It's a feeling of sorrow that we're not being compassionate, for example, But it's the type of sorrow that makes, that reforms us, that makes us feel like, I really do want to practice that.

[28:34]

So regret and sorrow around not following through on the things we wish to do If it's the right band of sorrow, it makes us more sincere, more serious, more committed to the thing we've kind of slipped up on. So that's called repentance. Or remorse means to taste again. I wasn't right. This is not what I wanted to do. And then you try again. It reforms us along the lines we aspire to. Does that require us to abide in that aspiration? People come to practice abiding. It's a normal human situation, like Grace said. Abiding is the normal human thing. So we bring that to practice. And part of ethics is to admit that we're human and to admit that we abide. that's part of the practice, is to admit.

[29:39]

You don't have to be, it isn't that you're supposed to be human, isn't I supposed to be human? I am. And coming with that is abiding. So, when I receive the precepts, there's going to be some abiding in my understanding of what they are. Like I have, I received the precept of not killing, I have some understanding of that. And I abide in it somewhat. And I practice it, and I practice it, and when I feel like I'm in accord with that precept which I aspire to, I feel good, I feel happy. And in that happiness, in that happiness which comes from commitment, then I'm open to somebody pointing out to me. It doesn't have to even be a teacher. Or I should say it doesn't have to be somebody who's officially a teacher. Somebody maybe points out to me, and I notice I'm abiding in that precept, which I'm enjoying practicing.

[30:42]

There's some clinging. There's some trying to get something out of it. So we have to commit to ethics in order to notice that we're abiding in them. You can say, well, don't we have to abide to learn them? Well, we come abiding, so I guess you could say, if you're a human being, you have to abide because human beings abide. Okay, fine, we do. And then with that abiding tendency, we learn the precepts. And when we practice them, we feel happy. And when we don't, we feel remorse, sorrow, and so on. We go back to work. And the more joy we get from practicing ethics, the more that joy is open to getting feedback like, well, you're great, but it would be nice if you, you know, opens your mind to that there's nothing to get out of all this.

[31:43]

And you say, OK, I can open to that because I've enjoyed practicing these precepts of compassion so much. It's been such a joy that I'm now ready to let go of the joy, to not abide in it, and continue to practice and feel joy in practice. and now even without abiding in it. So it's abiding as a stepping stone to not abiding. Abiding as a stepping stone to non-abiding, yeah. You could say that. In other words, non-abiding is only relevant to abiders. Non-abiding is for us abiders. We're abiders. We're pretty good at it. Because, you know, there's no like tiny little babies here.

[32:48]

We've been doing it for a long time. We're like pretty good at it. And so now we can learn this new thing. And hopefully old dogs can learn new tricks. Yes. Thank you. You're welcome. Any other contributions? Yes. OK, lunch is at 12.35, so should we stop now? Huh? What? There's more time. There's more time? How much? How much? 20 minutes. Wow. So does somebody else want to bring something up?

[33:50]

Please come. It's nice to have big sleeves. Big sleeves and also it's nice to have representatives over on this side. Thank you. I wanted to bring up something about abiding in ethics because I noticed for myself, anyway, that my tendency to abide in ethics has something to do with fear. Actually, that seems to be the main motivating source. And I think it arises from having seen... The teaching of non-abiding is for bodhisattvas who are deeply committed to the precepts.

[34:53]

So the teaching of non-abiding in the precepts is for people who are committed wholeheartedly to the precepts. So now you're talking, you're wholeheartedly committed to the precepts, right? And then you're saying now that you think maybe the abiding comes from fear. Yeah. Like you're afraid, if I don't abide in not killing, I might kill something. Actually, it's more like I look around the world and have my whole life and seen a lot of killing and a lot of other unethical behavior that causes enormous suffering. And I feel like I don't want to cause suffering, so I will try to... follow these precepts, and I want everybody else to, too, and that's where the abiding is. I don't want people to kill. I really don't. You cannot want people to kill. Like the Buddha, from what I've heard, the Buddha really didn't want people to kill.

[35:54]

The Buddha didn't want people to be cruel. The Buddha didn't even want people to be, you know, have any ill will towards people. He said, my disciples do not practice ill will. If you practice ill will, you're not really my disciple. Buddha really was nonviolent and really was, he was kind of, what's the word? He was, he emphasized, he was emphatic about being nonviolent. He wanted people to be nonviolent. And he didn't abide in that want. He emanated it through the world because he didn't abide in it. But if we get afraid, we think, if I don't abide in this, maybe it'll get lost or something. And Buddha wanted other people to be nonviolent and, I say, did not abide in it. Therefore, no matter what people did, he kept

[36:58]

wanting them to be nonviolent. If I want me or you to be nonviolent, and I abide in that, and I am violent or you are violent, I might actually say, okay, I don't care anymore. Matter of fact, I'm going to kill you. So my fear in looking is actually what I feel like, and this is just a start, but I'm afraid that I can't handle, I, this person, cannot handle a situation where there's violence. You feel you can't handle a situation where there is violence. Right. It's a fear. It's like a very personal fear. It's not just an altruistic fear. It is a fear that... in a world, if I am confronted with killing or whatever other ethical violations there are, that I personally am going to... This is going to be a problem for me personally.

[38:11]

Right there. I could think, in that violent situation, I will not be able to handle that violence. I could think that. I could say, in that level of violence, I would not be able to handle it. And I'm suggesting to me and to you that if I don't abide in that thought, I won't be afraid. Well, that's exactly where I got to. I thought, well, maybe I could. Maybe I could. Maybe you could. Once you don't abide in the thought, I cannot handle it, then the thought, maybe I could, can arise. Now, what am I going to say? Don't abide there either. Yes. Yes. When you have the thought, this violence is too intense for me to handle, and you don't abide in it, then the thought, maybe I could, can arise. When you don't abide in it, you're not afraid, and the thought, maybe I could, can arise, and then you could not abide in that and not be afraid again.

[39:18]

But if you abide in the thought, maybe I could, I'm not saying you're going to suddenly become terrified, but there will be fear there when you abide in maybe I can. But if you don't abide in the next one, and the next one, and the next one, then you have this situation where people, it's not exactly people do, where perfect wisdom performs these miracles. So you got this so-called Zen master who is, you know, confronted with violence. And they look at the violence and they might think, just like you, this is too much for me. This is a job for Superman. Not me. But they don't abide in it because they're trained Zen students. And they're not afraid. And from that non-abiding comes forth this response to this violence which sometimes disarms it.

[40:25]

But not always. It's not the person. It's the non-abiding that's letting this response come through the person. But we do. There are some situations where I might think, this is too much for me, and I don't abide in it, and I'm not afraid, and a response comes that takes care of it. And this is a rather advanced practice, but there are examples of it. from Buddha down through history there are examples of who are trained meditators who have learned not to abide can meet with non-violence and could have the thought this is too much for me or even have the thought I'm afraid and not abide in the thought I'm afraid or it's too much and then this amazing response comes which sometimes just totally turns the situation around

[41:36]

So to be able to respond to violence with nonviolence is, it is possible while still abiding. But if we're not abiding, the nonviolent response to violence is supposedly fostered. Like I always tell that, I repeatedly tell the story of Woody Allen He's in this movie where he's an unsuccessful bank robber. You know that movie? Yeah. So he's a very inept bank robber. So he gets caught on his first robbery, gets put in prison in a very kind of a harsh prison, like most prisons are. And he's being indoctrinated by the head guard. And behind the head guard are a bunch of other guards with various weapons in their hands. And the head guard's yelling at the inductees, the new prisoners.

[42:43]

And he comes to a conclusion and says, basically, if you do what we ask you to do, things will go kind of OK. If you don't, guess what's going to happen? And Woody Allen raises his hand shakily and says, may I ask a question? And the head guard says, what? And he says, do you think it's okay to pet on a first date? So, you know, if you don't abide in the fear, if you don't abide in your concern for yourself, your hand can raise up and you can ask a question which disarms the situation. Which makes violent people snap out of it for a minute and not know what to do. Can't even remember how to be violent.

[43:45]

That kind of genius comes from not abiding. But he was scared, you know. But then somehow from that place there was a freedom. Thank you. You're welcome. And the Buddha did that with violent people too. Anything else? Yes. Please come, Susan. Do we still have some time? Do you think? Well, I heard the open call. Oh, sorry. Oh, I shouldn't have said that. It says 1245, so it won't be long. Do you think we can have one more or should we stop now? One more. Okay, here you are. I'm sorry I overdressed for the celebration. I'm not going to worry about it. Hey, welcome, overdressed one. You have a nice dress.

[44:49]

Oh, thank you. But it's not gray. Oh, I'll have to work on that. It'll eventually become gray. Just keep practicing and it'll get grayer and grayer. Especially if you wash it. Which I have to sometimes. It'll get grayer. You are destined for non-abiding. Oh, good. My question is about anxiety. And it occurred to me that in some ways anxiety is necessary for us to become aware that if I feel anxious... Yes, in some ways it's necessary. It is the curriculum of Buddhism. Anxiety shows us that we're holding something.

[45:52]

It tips us off. Everything's fine. It's a sunny day. Everybody in 10 directions thinks I'm a great guy. I'm in good health. I'm not in debt. All my friends are healthy. And they've just established that the entire world is at peace. And I'm scared about something. I'm worried. I'm chewing my fingernails. I'm afraid. That anxiety is tipping me off, that I'm a little bit out of, there's a hair's breadth deviation between me and the universe. The slightest separation coming from a little bit of holding in the flow of events creates not a terrible agonizing, depressing, but just something's off.

[46:55]

Shakyamuni Buddha lived in a very, he says, I lived in my father's palace and I was comfortable. And then he went outside and he saw these suffering people. And he was uncomfortable. He was anxious. He said, something's off in Denmark. So anxiety is a tip-off. That even when things are really good, there's something a little off. Something a little off. It's a little bit of clinging. until complete perfect Buddhahood. And bodhisattvas are not complete perfect Buddhahood, so they have a sense of that thing, that abiding mind, all the way along, which they supplement, which they bring non-abiding to. So anxiety is, we do have it, it is our friend.

[48:00]

Anxiety is our friend, which if we're kind to it, will guide us to the perfect wisdom of the bodhisattva. But if we're not kind to it, it might be even a better friend and get a little bit more intense. And if we're not kind to that, it may ask for more strongly. And stronger and stronger until we finally say, I hear you. I hear you. I got the message. You don't have to get any worse. I got it. I'm listening. I'm listening, anxiety. What would you like me to do? Anything you'd like me to do for you? Yes, I'd like you to be generous with me and ethical with me and patient with me. I'd like you to be enthusiastic and calm with me. And I'd like you to study to see if there's any clinging in the mind. That's what anxiety is asking us to do. Thanks for listening. You're welcome.

[49:04]

And please continue to listen. I will. Thank you all very much for listening to this interaction between living beings.

[49:26]

@Transcribed_v005
@Text_v005
@Score_90.24