So I turn this circle, the circle of the wondrous dharma, and in the circle there are sentient beings. SB means sentient being. Shujo. And there are Buddhas. And sentient beings live in enclosures. And the enclosure that they live in is what we call karmic consciousness. And I wrote a quote over there in Chinese from the Book of Serenity, Shōyō Roku, Case 37. So it says, all sentient beings, all shūjō, just have go shiki, karmic consciousness.

[01:04]

Karmic consciousness. And then it says bobo. And bo means vast. And bobo means vast and vague. Or vast and unclear. And one translator said vast and giddy. Giddy. and the English word giddy, the first meaning that I found was a state of excitement or disturbance to the point of disorientation. So all sentient beings have this karmic conscious, vast, unclear, vague, blurry, And then it says, with no fundamental to rely on. So that's a case from the Book of Serenity that I brought up many times.

[02:08]

And today I just also mentioned that the 37s are big. Case 37, and then there's a fascicle written by Dogen called 37 Limbs of Enlightenment, where he comments on the traditional 37 practices that are offered. And I think the last... eight practices of 37 are the Eightfold Path. So Eightfold Path starts with right view and then right thinking or right intention. And then right action right speech, right livelihood. And then right mindfulness, no, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

[03:23]

In Dogen's comment on the Eightfold Path, he mentions that in discussing right thinking, he mentions that right thinking is what is called by him and his ancestors non-thinking. I'll go over this, I think, perhaps again and again in detail, but I just want to mention a little bit today about this. I'm trying to mention a little bit about this.

[04:52]

I'm holding myself back trying to say a little. So one little bit I'll say about this is that in the Fukanzazengi, which we chant in Soto Zen quite frequently, Dogen says that non-thinking is the essential art of zazen. So he says, settle into a steady, immobile sitting position. I understand that to mean settle into a steady, immobile sitting position. In other words, be calm in body and mind. in this calm place, practice what the ancestors, what the Buddha ancestors practice when they're calm.

[06:00]

So one example is a Buddha ancestor in our lineage named Yakusan Igen was once sitting calmly and the monk said, what kind of thinking are you doing sitting still? And the ancestor, Yakusan, he again said, thinking of not thinking. The monk said, how to think of not thinking? And Yashan said, non-thinking. So in Chinese, how do you think? The think is shi rio, the not thinking is fu shi rio, and the non-thinking is hi shi rio. So then after that, Dogen Zenji says, this is the essential art of zazen, this non-thinking.

[07:12]

In the 37 Wings of Enlightenment, he says, non-thinking is right thinking. The right thinking of the Eightfold Path is non-thinking. The right thinking of the Eightfold Path, therefore, is the essential art of Zazen. So I'm proposing to you, along these lines, that the actual practice of zazen, the essential heart of it, is a kind of thinking. It's the thinking the way the Buddha ancestors think. It's the thinking, it's the way they work with karmic consciousness. In this diagram I made, Buddhas don't exactly have karmic consciousness. The sentient beings are in this circle of karmic consciousness.

[08:19]

Sentient beings are surrounded by a sphere that their mind creates of deluded karmic consciousness. That's where they live. And they communicate with other sentient beings who live in their own karmic consciousness. Buddhas are not living in there, but Buddhas can enter. It's like in Monopoly. You can go to jail just as a visitor. Sentient beings are trapped in jail. Buddhas can enter to visit, and bodhisattvas actually live in here too. Buddhas study the karmic consciousness and are illuminated, experience the illumination of karmic consciousness.

[09:23]

Buddhas realize the illumination of karmic consciousness. And that of has two ofs. One is like illumination about, But karmic consciousness has illumination too. All dharmas have illumination. Buddhas realize that illumination about darkness. They realize the light of boundless, unclear, dark karmic consciousness. Buddhas take care of sentient beings. Bodhisattvas take care of sentient beings. Bodhisattvas take care of karmic consciousness. Buddhas take care of and study karmic consciousness. And Buddhas are the eventual fruit of a very long career of taking care of karmic consciousness.

[10:25]

Again, Emptiness, ultimate truth, is, it's not the result of, it is karmic consciousness. It is form. It is feeling. But it is the deep, disciplined karmic consciousness. It's not karmic consciousness when you just take a little swipe at it. it's not this little sliver or surface of karmic consciousness. It is thoroughly engaging, encountering, and actualizing karmic consciousness. That's emptiness. Buddhas and bodhisattvas realize, encounter, and actualize karmic consciousness. And the definition of karmic consciousness is thinking.

[11:29]

The definition of karmic consciousness is intention. So again, going back to the Eightfold Path, right intention, right thinking is to engage and actualize thinking. And I said again, and I'll say it again to myself and to you, we all are involved with karmic consciousness, we're all involved with thinking. Our shortcoming is that we do not fully engage our thinking moment by moment. We have bodies, but we don't necessarily fully engage our body. In some sense, our genuine body is realized in the full engagement of the body. If you don't pay attention to your body, you may not notice how fragile and impermanent it is.

[12:40]

Again, as Jim quoted Darlene yesterday, she said she wished she wasn't so thoroughly engaged with her body or something like that, that she wasn't so engaged with her fragility and impermanence of her body. Without the aid of severe illness, can we be as engaged with our body as someone who is really sick Well, that's what the encouragement is, is that we'd be engaged with our body. If we can walk across the room, we walk across the room like somebody who just learned to walk. When you watch it, see a child who just learned to walk, you ever seen that happen? Those first few steps? Everybody that's watching is just amazed. But the child is amazed, too.

[13:49]

The child is going, wow, it's happening. They can't say that usually, but they are also like, it's a triumph to be that engaged with this body, that they can walk. and I broke the femur on my leg, and then there was a point at which I could walk again. I still think walking is a fabulous thing, but I occasionally forget how wonderful it is and just forget to engage and actualize the walking body. Walking bodies One thing, but walking minds, the mind is even harder to fully engage. And the unattended body will bump into things and fall down, which is not so good, and break its femur. But the unattended body is much more dangerous, much more potentially harmful.

[14:52]

So, yeah. In some sense, what I'm bringing up is very simple and, again, it's very disorienting because I'm inviting you to encounter, engage being disoriented. Karmic consciousness is disorienting. And so I've been asking for feedback and now people are admitting, well, you know, if you say that I'm always deluded, it's a little bit, it could be discouraging or depressing or frightening or, yeah, right. To be trapped in karmic consciousness is a dangerous situation. It's vast, you can't get away from it, and it's not clear And it's not even clearly not clear. I mean, it's unclear, but sometimes it looks crystal clear. That's part of how it's kind of confusing.

[15:59]

Like it's crystal clear sometimes that you're right and I'm wrong, or that something else is the case. Another one of our ancestors is... So there's Yaka-san Igen, and before him there's Sekito Gisen, and before him there's... Don't tell me. Don't tell me. Seigen Gyoshi. Seigen Gyoshi. Gyoshi means... walking and thinking, walking thinking.

[17:00]

That's his Dharma name, but I kind of think of him as being, practicing his Dharma name. Actually, also the character for walking there, gyo, means to practice. It means to walk, it means to practice, and it also means to engage in ethical discipline. So he's walking and thinking walking. Just like everybody else. Walking and thinking. Walking and thinking of Buddha. Walking and thinking, period. Walking and engaging his thinking while he's walking. This is our ancestor. And Hetz was his name. going back to the Eightfold Path, sometimes it's analyzed into the first two parts being about wisdom, right view and right thinking about wisdom, the second three about being ethics, the third three about being meditation.

[18:22]

But I propose to you that for Dogen, The center of meditation is in right thinking. And so for Dogen, the first two parts of the Eightfold Path, right view, which is wisdom, is followed by meditation, right thinking. And that the meditation, because it follows from wisdom, is wisdom meditation. The right thinking depends on right view in that case. So it's a thinking that's dependent upon or growing up out of wisdom. And that thinking is the meditation.

[19:26]

So the meditation for Dogen is a meditation which is wisdom in meditation. And the last three are concentration practices which still can be practiced to enjoy and deepen the central meditation practice. The last three are about settling into a steady immobile sitting position in which you nourish and provide the context for wisdom and meditation in union. Somebody gave me a book once, and I don't know if the whole book was called Buddha, but anyway, at least one of the chapters was, What is Buddha? And this person said, Buddha is the elimination of discursive thought, the elimination of thinking, the elimination of karmic consciousness.

[20:40]

Elimination. Suppression and elimination of discursive thought. He said that was Buddha. This person was not a Buddhist writer, but this is what the person said was Buddha. And there is in the Zen school some people who seem to be proposing that. I feel that Dogen Zenji is An example of someone who's made a tremendous effort to say suppressing discursive thought, suppressing deluded thinking is Buddha. I think he said, no, that's not Buddha. To suppress deluded thinking is not Buddha. Buddha is to be greatly enlightened about deluded thinking. And if you're enlightened about Buddhist deluded thinking, you joyfully transcend the duality between deluded thinking and enlightenment.

[21:53]

Enlightenment leaps beyond the duality, the gain and loss, the abundance and lack of deluded thinking and enlightenment. But also enlightenment plunges into and totally immerses itself in deluded thinking in order to benefit beings who are deluded thinking. So enlightenment plunges into deluded thinking in order that the deluded thinking can express itself in daily life in a compassionate, and liberating way. But also to be plunged into daily life, into your daily thinking in a compassionate and liberating way is enlightenment. So some of the feedback I got was somebody saying to me, not because of this teaching so much, but sort of on her own she came up with, I don't know what I'm doing.

[23:10]

Somebody said that to me. Can you believe that? I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm doing. That's karmic consciousness. Karmic consciousness is the doing consciousness, and it doesn't know what it's doing. Now, it sometimes does think it knows what it's doing, but it doesn't know what it's doing, even though it thinks it does. Sometimes it thinks, I don't know what I'm doing, and in a sense, then it's right. So if you have a thought like, I don't know what I'm doing, I would say, please encounter please take care of that thought, I don't know what I'm doing. Please, for the welfare of all beings, and do this for the welfare of all beings, don't do it for yourself, that will undermine your effort. For our sake, please take care of the thought, I don't know what I'm doing.

[24:14]

And if you think sometimes, I do know what I'm doing, take care of that thought equally well. If you think you're not arrogant, take care of that thought. Just like you take care of the thought, I am arrogant. Or if you have the thought, I'm not arrogant and other people are, take care of that thought. If you have a thought, people are telling me I am arrogant, take care of that thought. Take care of all karmic consciousness thoroughly, basically equally, Take care of every moment as an opportunity to realize Buddha by right thinking. Now, there is a practice of suppressing discursive thought.

[25:17]

And there is another practice which is a little bit different from suppressing called letting go of discursive thought. And letting go of discursive thought is a good practice for calming down. So part of the confusion I think we have in the Buddhist Sangha is that there is a practice recommended by Buddha called settling into a steady, immobile, sitting position, which means settle into a steady, calm body mind. And the way to do that is to give up thinking. Give up discursive thought. Let go of it. Relax with it. Don't worry about it. And then when you're calm, then engage the thinking, which has been going on all along, but you've been concentrating or focusing on letting go of it so you can calm down. Once you're calm, then engage it and care for it.

[26:24]

Dis-a-plain it. If you have a thorough, compassionate, disciplined, gentle, calm, did I say patient, non-violent, non-overbearing relationship with your karmic consciousness, it will be disciplined. And when the disciplined karmic consciousness is ultimate truth. So I'm enjoying watching minds appear and disappear and watching the care of the minds with confidence that this care and discipline of the minds realizes the truth. And that this is the work of the Buddhas.

[27:27]

They are constantly attending to infinite numbers of karmic consciousnesses, illuminating them, encouraging the beings trapped in karmic consciousness to do the same as them. bodhisattvas actually willingly enter into a body and a karmic consciousness. So they work within a trapped situation. And they do the same practice as the Buddhas. In this room, if we wish to be bodhisattvas, then we need to do this practice of authentic thinking, wholehearted thinking, compassionate care of our constantly evolving karmic consciousness. But again, as we recited a moment ago, this is a quiet exploration

[28:32]

Although our evil karma has greatly accumulated, indeed being the causes and conditions of obstacles to practicing the way, may all Buddhas and Bodhisattvas be compassionate to us and free us from karmic effects." But it isn't that they're going to do the work for us. The way they're going to free us from karmic effects is by giving us teachings about how to relate to the karmic effects. So these are the teachings how to relate to karma and karmic effects so that the obstructions to the way will be removed. And Dogen says, quietly explore the farthest reaches of these causes and conditions, and I would add in, the causes and conditions of karmic consciousness. Explore these quietly, calmly. If you're getting upset about the exploration process, maybe just sit down for a while and stop exploring The landscape will keep bugging you, but just sit down until you're calm.

[29:46]

And when you're calm, take care of the landscape of the karmic consciousness again. And if you can continue to be calm, just continue to care for it. But most of us, in the process of caring for common consciousness, do get a little worked up or quite worked up. At that time, it's kind of hard to study. Just like if you're dancing with somebody and you're not calm, it's kind of hard to actually meet them. So you have to settle down to meet the other person where they're at. The same, to meet your mind, we do need to be calm. And then, in order to become, we have to do all these other practices. So I'm laying the groundwork again and again

[30:47]

to try to show how this simple teaching that we living beings, we sentient beings, just have deluded consciousness, just have karmic consciousness, and how that teaching is to get us ready for the actual art of zazen. And then also on the Horizon is a great deal of effort done by certain bodhisattvas to give us detailed tours of karmic consciousness by writing sutras and commentaries on the sutras. to see if we can follow their excursions into karmic consciousness and be calm and enthusiastic about understanding all of its amazing qualities.

[31:52]

Once again, if you don't feel calm, in some sense this teaching may not be right for you. So then I would say just practice letting go of discursive thought. and realize that you've got yourself in a situation where somebody's offering a teaching for you when you become calm. It may not be something you practice with now. You can listen to it so that when you become calm you can practice it, but it may not be appropriate to be studying and engaging your thinking if you're not quite calm. It may not be appropriate to quietly explore your karmic consciousness if you're not quiet. If there's any quiet explorers who would like to express themselves or any agitated sentient beings, they're also welcome.

[33:07]

Two people stood up before you, so you're number three, okay? Zachary, coming up? Yeah, it is okay. I invited you to come up. Here you go. So I'm probably in the category of people that you just described, but I'm confused about, let's say I am fortunate enough to have a calm enough mind to then be at the point of possibly taking care of karmic consciousness? Yes, let's say that happens someday. So I'm confused about what that looks like. What happens in that moment that you are able to take care of karmic consciousness or welcome it? What is that? Well, like, for example, you might have a story, so-and-so is my friend. You know, you might be... calmly sitting somewhere or standing somewhere, and a thought might arise in your mind, oh, here comes my friend.

[34:12]

And then you realize, oh, I have a story. I'm thinking that this person is my friend. And actually, up until this moment, I thought that was true. but actually this is my story about my relationship with this person. At that point you're engaging your story about them being your friend more than you did before. You're actually, now, you can say, I wonder if it's true that this person's my friend. And you could actually talk to them and say, you know, I just had this story about you, that you're my friend. Are you? And they say, sure. You say, wow, I wonder if that's true. Or you have some other story like, I'm worthless. Or if she's worthless, or she's stupid. Such a karmic consciousness could arise. Now that you're calm, you can look at that and say, I wonder if that's so.

[35:18]

Or you could be washing dishes downstairs, and you could wonder, I wonder if this is just more selfish activity. So I have the karmic consciousness that I'm in the kitchen, and I have the karmic consciousness actually to wonder if what I'm doing is selfish. That's a question, but it's also karmic consciousness, a question that's come in the form of a karmic consciousness thinking that. Well, rather than try to get the answer to that, you would take care of that question I guess that's where I get stuck. So you're not coming to a conclusion. You're just kind of raising these questions. Well, you're not trying to come to a conclusion. You're trying to understand the question rather than get the answer to the question. Or a statement, I am selfish. You don't just stop there and conclude that that's so. You study that mind that says you're selfish or that says somebody else is selfish.

[36:29]

You don't say people are selfish and let it go at that. You wonder, I wonder if that's true. But the wondering if it's true is not to get the answer, it's to have a studious, engaging relationship with the statement, so-and-so is selfish, so-and-so is foolish. I wonder what this person wants. It isn't that I get the answer to what they want, but that wondering what they want opens me to an appropriate, a compassionate relationship. I wonder what I want. It isn't that I'm going to find out what I want, but I'm now studying my mind. I'm becoming intimate with it. I'm engaging it. So again, the first aspect of studying karmic consciousness when you are ready to study When you're ready, the first aspect of encountering it is practicing giving.

[37:34]

The first thing the bodhisattva does with her experience is to practice generosity, to welcome it. Not to try to get the answer from it or get a conclusion about what your guest is, but to just welcome it, let it in without leaning into it or away from it. Then, again, practice ethics with it. The discipline starts with giving and then the discipline moves into ethical behavior. And then it moves into patience and so on. Was there another person who started to come up? Did you still want to come? Honey, could you handle that? You pushed me away a little bit. Would that be okay for you? Is that all right?

[38:36]

I have a few things I ... When you say thinking, when I'm thinking, it implies that I'm thinking. No, not to me, to you. That's the way your karmic consciousness works. You just told me about your karmic consciousness, which is not my karmic consciousness. So my karmic consciousness is separate from everybody else's? It's not separate, but you might think it is. Our karmic consciousnesses are not separate, but most of us think they are. But they're not. But you just said, when I say thinking or not thinking, that implies that I'm thinking. I'm saying, you just have told me about your kind of consciousness, that you think that. And I accept that you think that, but I don't think that. When I say thinking, I don't think somebody's thinking.

[39:43]

I don't think we are thinking, I think we are thinkers. Not that I'm thinking. it's that I am thinking. All I am is thinking. It's not that I'm thinking. I'm not something separate from my thinking. Just like I'm not something separate from the universe, I'm not something separate from my thinking. So that's the way I think. But I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. I'm just saying that's my thinking. So my karmic conscience doesn't agree with that when I say thinking, it means I'm thinking. I don't think it needs to mean that. But apparently that's the way you think, or used to anyway. I'm confused. Okay. So when you say I'm confused, that could be I'm confused or it could just be, when I say I'm confused, I mean there's confusion.

[40:50]

There's confusion. It's a different name for the same thing. Yeah, I'm confused is a different name for confused. It still implies to me that I'm affecting it somehow. I understand that you see that implication. But I would say karmic consciousness has consequence, but it's not that there's somebody separate from karmic consciousness that has consequences. Buddha didn't say, you have consequences. Buddha didn't say, you have consciousness. He said, karmic consciousness, the first sentence of right view is, karma has consequence. He didn't say, you have consequence. He says, karma has consequence. Your karmic consciousness has consequence, not you. But you're not separate from your karmic consciousness.

[41:53]

They are just names. They are just thoughts and names. It's not... they're not tangible for me. So they're just names. You know, they're just definitions. It's okay if they're not tangible. And I think that part of the discipline process is to learn to tolerate caring for something that's not tangible. Not tangible in the sense that all I honestly can tell you or anybody is that these thoughts, they come to me and they go the way they want. And all I can do is observe them. Well, you can do more than observe them. You can observe them and be kind to them. Well, if it depends on me. Well, you could say it depends on you, but I still say... that observing them is not as much as observing and being kind and patient and gentle with them.

[43:17]

And you can say something about, depending on you, but I'm just saying that it's possible to have a more engaging relationship with these things that are doing what they want. And with people, too, it's possible to have a more engaging relationship with people who are... You can say they're doing what they want, but I don't think they're doing what they want. They're just not doing what you want. I can't prove that. I can't prove that I am affecting them. What I'm saying is that... You don't have to prove it. It's just a message to you from Buddha. Buddha is saying, your karmic consciousness has consequence, but the Buddha didn't say... that you would be able to verify that right away. In fact, he said, to verify that karma has consequence is a more advanced realization than the realization of ultimate truth. Only Buddhas can actually verify how karma works. But the Buddha is telling us that our karmic consciousness has consequence, and if we study that, we will understand eventually.

[44:28]

So you are studying your karmic consciousness. You notice that your thoughts are pretty much not under anybody's control. And I see them when I look at my … This karmic consciousness is vastly not under control. And also it's not even clear how it's not under control. And when I look at my fellow sentient beings, I see they're not under control either. They're not under my control or their control. But still the bodhisattva is devoted to this karmic consciousness which is not under control, that you can't get a hold of because it's not exactly clear where to take a hold of it because it's all kind of blurry. And it's even worse when you think it's not blurry because then you get aggressive. I mean, and you, but I do. So your observation is, you say, it's all I can do, and I'm just saying, it's not all you can do, but it's really good. Fundamental is that you observe it.

[45:31]

And then you can deepen your engagement beyond just observing to be more interactive with your kind of consciousness. But I'm not saying you're going to be able to prove that if you're kind to your kind of consciousness, you won't be able to prove that if you're kind to your common consciousness, you'll realize ultimate truth until you realize ultimate truth. But if you show me how you're being kind to your common consciousness, I will say to you, Andrew, you're really on the right track to ultimate truth. And if you say, prove it to me, I say, keep doing it, and we'll be able to prove this. But you're basically on the right track of observing this situation, this confused auto-control situation. This is the track I'm recommending, so thank you for considering to do that. And I'm just telling you, you can do more than just observe eventually. See, what really I'm...

[46:34]

It's difficult to explain it. Yes. That I see infinity, an infinite universe, an infinity. And all I have to do is just create a mechanical system and it will fit nicely into it. Yeah. Any system will fit to it. Yeah. So if I follow any system, I'm just following another thought. Yeah, that's right. So what's wrong if I follow one thought and not the other one? I'm not saying it's wrong to follow one way or another. I'm saying I recommend that you give the same attention to whatever system you're following. I don't want to follow systems. I know you don't want to, but you're telling me that you do. But you're kind of half-hearted about it because you see how foolish they all are. Yeah. So actually I'm saying to you, please be more wholehearted about this foolishness. Not because this one's better than that one.

[47:41]

But whichever one you're involved with, be as wholehearted as you possibly can be. That's what I'm saying. Then you'll realize the truth of these different systems, none of which are ultimately true. Things that are not ultimately true are inseparable from ultimate truth. But if we're half-hearted about them, because we see, well, this is just not quite... If we're half-hearted about it, we won't realize the ultimate truth. And that's hard to be wholehearted about something that's kind of not that you're cool. That's true. That's another story. But we need to be. We need to be totally devoted to a not very good world system. I'm really, you know, I... One instant I'm chanting that there is no mind, no mouth, no eyes, no ears, no path, no enlightenment.

[48:44]

Then we talk about enlightenment and path and karmic consciousness. But the next minute we chant that there is no karmic consciousness. Okay, so there should be two different systems. One instantly chanting that there is cause and conditions. The next instantly chanting that the firework doesn't turn into ash and ash doesn't turn back to firework again. So which definition is, it's all of them contradicting. Yeah, so what I'm saying here is wholeheartedly encounter each of these systems that you're being offered. What about just dropping all of them? You will be able to drop all of them, but the price of dropping any of them is total engagement. And I think you're getting more engaged in it over the years.

[49:45]

I'm trying. I'm trying. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Before you said, ah, why should I? Because, you know, why should I? Because now you're more like, well, maybe I'll give it a little attention. Even though I can refute it like that. Yeah. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Yes. Do you want to come up or stay where you are? Please come up. Yes, you can stay where you are. You can stay where you are. Please come up. So you're noticing your thoughts, right? Mind like a wall. There's a teaching like that that I've heard. Mind like a wall. Bodhidharma's mind like a wall means you notice your thoughts. You're calm.

[50:49]

You welcome them. You don't try to get anything from them. You're careful with them. This is mine like a wall. Yes? Now Bodhidharma's here. So what happens when Bodhidharma twitches and discursive thought does come in? Well, you said we're noticing our thoughts. Okay. The thoughts can be discursive. You can do the same thing with discursive thoughts. So discursive thoughts come up and Bodhidharma greets them. I guess I have a two-part question, but the first part is how do you remain calm with discursive thinking? When you're calm, discursive thinking can arise, and it is possible to continue to be calm with the discursive thought happening. It isn't that you let go of discursive thought, become calm, and then there's no more discursive thought.

[51:57]

There are states like that, but that's not what the Buddha Dharma is talking about. It's talking about give up discursive thought, become calm, and then you can be calm with discursive thought because discursive thought is what we use in daily life. What we want to do is to bring this calm into daily life. I'm talking about meditation. Yeah, I'm talking about meditation too. Buddha Dharma is meditating all the time. Well, I'm talking about sitting meditation. Bodhidharma is sitting all the time. So, can I ask my question? You are asking a question, but I'm joining in with you. When you're sitting and meditating, There was an offering at one time, a teaching, that you ought to just, you know, empty the mind and not think and just go into one-pointed samadhi.

[53:03]

There was a teaching like that that I heard. I've heard that teaching too, but I'm telling you that I think it's misleading to say, don't think, like that means no thinking. It doesn't? Some people, I think... I get the feeling some people are actually mean to do that, but I'm saying I don't think that that is the Buddha Dharma. The Buddha just said that's how to concentrate, is to let go of thinking. But if there's no thinking, you don't have to let go of it. So it's not that no discursive thought is common. If you just turn somebody's discursive thought off, in some sense they're not really calm, because calm isn't just to be dead. Turning off discursive thought looks calm, but there's no vitality there. There's no brightness. There's no alertness. So it's a calm where there's alertness, where there's consciousness. So turning off discursive thought is not the same as calm.

[54:07]

What's calm is a state of tranquility and alertness that is the fruit of letting go of discursive thought. It's like being calm is like to give away all your money. It's not to not have any money. So you say to yourself, give it away? Is that what you're doing? Or let go. Or relax. Et cetera. So when you get into the reflective and analysis mode of that... When you say that, what do you mean by that? Well, you're seeing all these thoughts appear and arise and cease. Yes. So the next step is wisdom, right? Reflective analysis of what's arising and ceasing. If you're calm, you mean?

[55:11]

If you're calm... And these thoughts are arising and ceasing and you're seeing them. When you see a thought arise and cease, that is an analysis. It is? Yeah, because it's been analyzed into arising and ceasing. That's an analysis. So is that... How far do you take analysis? How far do you take it? Yeah. You take it to ultimate truth. You take it... But what are the steps to ultimate truth? Well, like watching something arise and cease very thoroughly, you will develop a thorough disciplined relationship with the arising and ceasing of phenomena, and that thorough relationship with the arising and ceasing of phenomena will show you that they cannot be found. If you look very carefully at things, for example, arising and ceasing is a phenomenon. If you look very carefully at it, thoroughly at that, you'll realize that it cannot be found, that it cannot be grasped.

[56:14]

In other words, you'll realize its ultimate truth is that it's ungraspable. That it's empty? That it's empty. So watching arising and ceasing is a traditional topic for wisdom, to develop wisdom. But... So if you're new at it, what do you, what is helpful in that process? Just watching it, or is there something The process is... Just watching? The process is watching. That is the process, watching, like Andrew is saying, observing. You're observing, okay? And you're observing in a calm state. For example, you're observing arising and ceasing, and you're also practicing all the other bodhisattva practices at the same time. I have a hard time not believing some of them.

[57:21]

Not believing some of the things that are arising? Uh-huh. Right. So to watch the arising... And of certain thoughts, even if you're calm, it's difficult to watch it and really be upright with it and really be welcoming of it. So you're watching the arising of the sounds of the birds and the ceasing of the sounds of the birds. This is cool. The arising of the sounds of the rain, ceasing of the sound of the rain, the arising of extreme pain. Wait a minute. wait a minute, I'm not going to watch this. I've got better things to do. Or you watch the arising of the thought, this person is unkind to me, or I did a really stupid thing. To watch that thought arise, you might get temporarily derailed from observing it. And you might even get kind of agitated again, so you have to start over.

[58:24]

In the meantime, it might have gone away. Or maybe not. Maybe you so much got derailed that you didn't even let it go and you're just holding on to what you don't want to look at. So then you've got to sort of start over. Okay, now calm down again. Is it still here? Yep. Okay, now can I watch it arising and ceasing calmly and thoroughly? Now can I develop an engaged, disciplined relationship with these thoughts that are arising and ceasing? Do you give counter-argument analysis to them? When you're calm, you usually are not giving counterarguments. Sometimes if you're really agitated, you might need to have a little argument with yourself, like, you know, it really is necessary to be calmed down here now. This is not time to be screaming and hollering anymore. Let's calm down. I don't want to, but it would be good.

[59:28]

I really don't want to. No, just questioning the validity of what's arising. Like this person is bad, thinking, well, maybe this person is not bad, or this person's an enemy, or this person's a friend. I wouldn't suggest you do that. But if you have the thought, this person's an enemy, and then the next thought comes up, maybe this person's not, I didn't tell you to do the second question, but the second question might come up. Okay, so not do it yourself. You didn't do the first one yourself. But I'm just saying, if you think this is my enemy, and then you think, well, maybe she's not, I would say take care of both of them. The first one arose and ceased. She's my enemy. She's my enemy. Maybe she's not. But I think actually she is.

[60:29]

I stayed with those last three thoughts quite well. I'm saying... So you're saying not make it contrived. Not make it contrived, right. Deal with what's happening. Deal with what's happening, but stay with it coming up. Here's another one. Another moment coming up. Here we are. Okay, this is happening. Oh, my God, it's happening. No, here it goes. I'm glad that didn't stay very long. See, that was extra, right? No, it wasn't extra. It was just the next guest. Nothing's extra. Nothing's extra. They're just the next guest. But we think it's extra. If you don't wholeheartedly take care of this guest, you might think the next guest is extra. Or if you don't wholeheartedly take care of this guest, you might think you did the next guest wrong. Right. I thought you just did that last one. All I am is this karmic consciousness.

[61:40]

And the question is, can I ride the waves of it without falling off? And the answer is, well, I sometimes can and sometimes I fall off. When I fall off, then I think that I'm doing it or somebody else is doing it. Then I lose that intimacy, that engagement. And to be a good surfer, on the way to karmic consciousness, you have to be calm and concentrated. So, one, two, three, four. So, I'm... I'm wondering about discipline. Yes. In the... Discipline, not wondering. Discipline, wonder. Yeah. In my non-sitting part of my day... No.

[62:46]

Not that. Okay, okay. I try to keep in mind with varying degrees of success that I'm acting with no foundation, except perhaps precepts and bodhisattva vows, but I'm going through my life. And I can tell myself, remember, oh, remember, that's a precept. Careful there. Oh, hmm, that's an unwholesome thought. So I can feel like I'm being disciplined sometimes trying to be skillful in my actions in the conventional world. Can you hear?

[63:57]

So that's one kind of being disciplined. Yeah, that's one kind of being disciplined, right. And that discipline is not separate from having a disciplined relationship with delusion. It's not separate from it. Because in fact, in your karmic consciousness, in your diluted consciousness, you were trying to practice discipline. Yes. I have an idea of discipline, what that might be. I have some things I have in my diluted discipline box. And I do those. But when I'm consciously non-thinking... or when I think I'm not thinking, or when I think I'm not thinking, or whatever's happening there when I'm sitting, or trying to be in zazen mind, I have a tendency to judge. This isn't such good zazen.

[65:02]

Put that away. Do it a different way. Or that thought, is taking me someplace. Okay, can I say something? What I'm talking about is how you take care of the thought when you're sitting, when the thought arises, this isn't such good zazen. Is that what you said? Yeah, that could be one. So the thought, this isn't such good zazen. What I'm talking about is how do you engage that thought, this isn't such good zazen. The way of engaging that thought. Okay? Yeah. thoroughly, bodhisattvically, that is what we mean by non-thinking. That's right thinking. And that same way of engaging a thought in sitting, this isn't such good sitting or this is excellent sitting, the way of relating to those thoughts, those thoughts are thinking. This is good thinking, this is good thoughts, and that's thinking.

[66:05]

Non-thinking is a way of caring for that thinking such that you realize that this thinking is realization itself. not thinking that this is realization itself, but caring for the thought, this is definitely not realization, this is definitely not enlightenment, this definitely is enlightenment. Those are thinking examples. The way of caring for that, such that you realize that this thinking is realization itself, that's non-thinking. And that same way of caring can be turned to the thinking that happens when you're walking around outside the zendo, supposedly not sitting. All those thoughts are the same sentient beings, are sentient beings that you care for in the same way that the Buddha would care for the sentient being. And the way of caring for them is called non-thinking. It's a kind of thinking. It's a compassionate way of relating with the thinking process that realizes wisdom.

[67:12]

So is the discipline you're talking about taking care to do that? Yes. It's taking care to do that. It's learning that. So that's a different sort of discipline than I must show up on time. That's a different kind of discipline. It's the discipline of caring for the thought, I must show up on time. So I have ideas of the precepts. So I'm thinking about the precepts a lot maybe. And I'm thinking about how to practice them. Because I'm a sentient being, I want to practice the bodhisattva precepts. So I have my sentient being take on them. I have my conceptual, cognitive construction of these bodhisattva precepts, which I'm trying to practice. And then the discipline I'm talking about now is that the way I'm trying to practice, the way I'm thinking about these precepts, I take care of that.

[68:16]

And that's the thing I do all the time with everything. And that's the essence of our practice. That's non-thinking. That's right thinking. And that's thinking which is supported by and realizes wisdom. And number two. So I think I heard you say earlier that deluded sentient beings have only karmic consciousness, boundless and unclear, no fundamental to rely on. Yeah. And that we actually may sometimes think we know what we're doing, but we actually don't. Yeah, we think we know what we're doing, and that's another example of karmic consciousness.

[69:21]

So I'm just wondering how we can follow the Buddhist teachings or why we should follow the Buddhist teachings if that were the case. For example, the teaching that there is causality or why we would sit Zazen as opposed to go rob a bank. Well, the first example, there's a teaching that karma has consequence. So if you wanted to put that into practice, to me it would make sense that you then would pay close attention to karma. What I'm saying is, isn't that all coming through karma which we can't trust because it's boundless and unclear? So why should we trust that over something else? Does my question make sense?

[70:24]

Yes, it does. And I'm trying to answer that. To me, it makes sense that if I hear a teaching which says I'm confused, that it would make sense to pay attention to my confusion. Just like if I hear a teaching that I have a broken leg, it would make sense for me to pay attention to how I walk, and maybe not even walk, because the consequences would be painful. But still, I also understand that my interpretation of the instruction that my karma has consequence and my interpretation of the instruction that it would be good for me, therefore, to pay attention to my karma, that it would also make sense for me to be open to check to see if I understood the instruction right. So by trial and error, I seem to find a way and get reinforcement in the process, which might be just self-deluding.

[71:26]

I should be open to the possibility that it's just continual self-delusion. that I'm just hypnotizing myself into thinking that paying attention and being mindful is good. Because, you know, it could just be... This teaching should make me open to the fact that paying attention to my actions and being careful And to do that because I was told that that was in concert with the teaching that my actions have consequence, that I might be just, you know, hypnotizing myself. I think I'm open to that possibility that this is just one massive delusion process. And yet the Buddhas are sending us this message, and the message seems to be coming again and again over thousands of years, pay attention to karmic consciousness. They keep saying that. And why? Because it's very important. It has consequence. It can hurt beings if we don't take care of it. And the Buddha said the most destructive of all views is that karma doesn't have consequence, that delusion don't have consequence.

[72:28]

That's the worst thing that a being can think. So that's one message, and that's nihilism. Karmic doesn't have consequence, that's the worst. So I heard that, and I'm hearing that in karmic consciousness. And I'm also hearing that karma does have consequence, and I hear that, and I believe that, therefore I pay attention rather than not pay attention. Over the years, you maybe feel like, I'm glad I did pay attention. I'm glad I was careful. I'm glad I was still and listening to people. I don't regret that. And I do regret not paying attention to karma, even though I'm always paying attention to karma within karma. So it's an imperfect system, imperfect in the sense of not completely determined. And to me, again, that makes sense that if it were completely determined, then there would be no possibility of freedom.

[73:29]

But it's not completely determined because you get to ask questions like that and to throw that into the mix. And I get to receive it and we can work with this. So that's also part of what makes me have confidence in the teaching is that it's not fixed. You can question it and you can influence it. And then your karma affects the teaching and my karma in response to you affects the teaching. Teaching isn't fixed. So to me this is encouraging. How about you? Glad to hear a question. Thank you very much. You're welcome. That's a good spot. Okay. I have a discipline question also. All right. I was really taken with something you said yesterday. I had to write it on my hand because I seem to have trouble remembering it. Is it still there?

[74:30]

Yeah. Well, it's sort of abbreviated. And it was that emptiness is disciplined form. Yeah. And disciplined feeling. Okay. Yeah. And disciplined conception. And discipline anger and greed. Discipline karmic consciousness. Well, some time ago I heard a teaching here, I think, or from you, about thoughts, and you were just talking about this a minute ago, about how they arise and endure a little tiny while and then cease. But is there not a gap between that thought and the next thought? And if so, is that a literal expression of this emptiness that we're talking about? Some people think that that's so. Is it useful to think that, do you think? I don't. You haven't found the gap yet? I want to ask one more thing about that.

[75:31]

Oh, about form, and maybe I'm just taking in things too literally, but the forms that we use in bowing and in orioke and everything, are they empty when they're automatic or when we're paying attention to them but not having thoughts about or not struggling with them? Yeah. Well, paying attention to them, you could say paying attention to them I was going to offer instance with my left hand, sorry, paying attention to them so thoroughly that there's no somebody paying attention to them. That kind of thoroughness in the execution of these, in the performance of these forms realizes the emptiness of them. Yeah. Thank you. Like we say, you know, please come. When you hear sights and see sounds, fully engaging body and mind, it's not like things and their reflection in a mirror.

[77:03]

When one side is illuminated, the other side is dark. So when you're offering incense, fully engaging body and mind, it's not like you offering incense When one side's illuminated, the other side's dark. So like there's just incense offering, there's no you. Or there's only you and no incense offering. Then you realize the emptiness of incense offering. There isn't any incense offering, there's just you. Is that what you mean by discipline? Through discipline you get to that wonderful point. a fully, fully engaging body and mind and realizing emptiness. So karmic consciousness is me, right? Yeah, right. So that there would be no me outside of karmic consciousness. That's right, even though karmic consciousness thinks that there is, usually.

[78:06]

So suppose I have the thought that I'm arrogant, that would be karmic consciousness engaging me. Yes. And then when I examine that thought, that would be also karmic consciousness engaged? No, not really. It's an aspect of karmic consciousness called mindfulness or self-reflection. It's not outside my karmic consciousness, but many karmic consciousnesses do not examine themselves and notice themselves. It's like the practice starting to grow up inside of karmic consciousness is that we would notice. What you just noticed is not, strictly speaking, karmic consciousness. It's a kind of awakening in the midst of karmic consciousness. It's a practice. It's not separate, but it's a different thing than just more ideas about what's going on. It's just awareness of it. For example, also being generous towards this thought, I'm arrogant.

[79:11]

That generosity, there can be a karmic consciousness version of it, like you could think, oh, I'm being generous. But the actual opening, the actual generosity towards the karmic consciousness of that moment, it's not karmic consciousness. It's compassion. Okay. So that practice, we can trust it a little bit more because it doesn't necessarily have the same delusions that karmic consciousness would have. It's not that it doesn't have, you know, it can have the same, so you have karmic consciousness, you have delusion, okay? And then there's compassion towards this delusion. If you look at the Buddhist analysis of mind, which is the analysis of karmic consciousness, compassion is not on the list of mental factors. The bodhisattvas trust compassion But when they're practicing compassion, they might still be deluded about the practice of compassion.

[80:16]

Like I might say, well, I want to be generous towards you. I might think that. Okay? And that's karmic consciousness. But actually being generous towards you is not my idea of being generous. It's just being generous. Like I might think, I would like to be open to him. That's karmic consciousness. But opening to you is not karmic consciousness. It's compassion. I would like to be careful. That's karmic consciousness. Being careful of you is not karmic consciousness. It's ethical discipline. So the bodhisattva trusts these compassion practices. That's what they trust. But they can be deluded about those too. But I trust the practices, not my ideas of them. I don't trust my idea of giving. I do have ideas of giving which I use to encourage me and you. But my ideas about it are not the practices. Compassion is not my idea about it. I don't know what compassion is, but I work with what I think it is to guide myself towards its practice.

[81:23]

And it doesn't happen someplace other than karmic consciousness. Karmic consciousness is what needs compassion. So again, being generous and welcoming to karmic consciousness is not karmic consciousness. That's Buddha. Thank you for the question. That was important interchange. Did you get that? So what do we say? We have the Zen expression, the horse arrives before the donkey leaves. Compassion can be on the scene. in the midst of karmic consciousness, Buddha can come into the world of karmic consciousness and practice. And bodhisattvas who are living in karmic consciousness can trust these practices, knowing that also they are deluded about what these practices are. And then some people say, which is a little bit like what Cathy would say, if I'm deluded about bodhisattva practices, then how can I practice them?

[82:29]

Well, you do them, you make mistakes. You have a hard time practicing because you're using your karmic consciousness to try to learn them. But you can learn them. And they are not just karmic consciousness. They are the way of engaging karmic consciousness and realizing the truth. Yes. Yes. So Kathy's question and I think Elliot's question brought up the thought of with nothing to attain, a bodhisattva relies on prajnaparamita. Right. So is this, how does this relate to this practice? Is this prajnaparamita to practice in this way?

[83:34]

a disciplined relationship with karmic consciousness, that practice is the practice of prajnaparamita. So it says, Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva, when practicing deeply the prajnaparamita, clearly saw that all five aggregates are empty. So she's fully engaging with these five aggregates. She's engaging with them in this disciplined practice. And this disciplined practice is the practice of Prajnaparamita. Giving, ethical discipline, patience, enthusiasm, concentration, and then wisdom. That's the full engagement with karmic consciousness. Then you realize that it's empty. And is this realization in a small circle? And that's what the Bodhisattva depends on. The bodhisattva depends on bodhisattva practices, which take us to the place where we don't even grasp the bodhisattva practices.

[84:41]

Pardon? Is that then occurring in the small circle or the big circle behind you? For Ascension B, the practice is occurring in the little circle. But the little circle is surrounded by the big circle. And the prajnaparamita is... Is cooking right in here. Right in there. However, the prajnaparamita doesn't think that this circle is really there. The prajnaparamita is wholeheartedly working with this enclosure, which is an illusion, and realizes that you can never grasp this inclusion. So again, Dogen Zenji says, When the Dharma fills you, you realize something's missing. When the Dharma fills you, you realize you're living in an enclosure. When the Dharma doesn't fill you, you think, me and Buddha, we're fowls and I know the real, I know the Dharma.

[85:50]

This is what it's like when you don't, when a sentient being doesn't fully engage, doesn't really hear the Dharma. They think, I'm not deluded. When you hear the teaching, you realize you've got to deal with this situation. You've got to deal with this. When you deal with it, you become Buddha. And Dogen Zenji says, it's like going out in the ocean. When you look around, it looks like a circle of water. What we see is a circle of water. Our mind makes a circle of water. So we can see something. But the ocean is not a circle of water. If you accept that it's a circle of water, and then take care of the circle of water, you're accepting karmic consciousness and taking care of karmic consciousness. And then you can realize the whole ocean without taking away the circle of water. because that circle of water is totally non-dual with the ocean.

[86:55]

But if you think the circle of water is the ocean, then you're just what we call deluded within delusion, rather than enlightened within delusion. Buddhas are enlightened within delusion. So we can say Buddhas have great enlightenment about delusion, but you can also translate it as Buddhas have great enlightenment in the midst of delusions. Buddhas can go right in there and understand it. They don't have to move. They don't have to move to go anyplace. They just understand it. So this practice of caring for delusion is the practice of prajnaparamita. So I don't trust my karmic consciousness. I don't trust it, but I also don't disrespect it. I honor it. I love it. I love my karmic consciousness. I don't like it or dislike it. My karmic consciousness likes and dislikes. My karmic consciousness likes the people on the north side of the room and hates the people on the south side of the room.

[87:58]

Fortunately, nobody knows what direction this room is. But the practice I trust is loving the karmic consciousness that has preferences. Even Satsikarashi said, I don't like this, but my mind discriminates between two kinds of students at Tassajara. Those that are here to help themselves and those that are here to help others. I'm sorry, my mind does that. I don't trust the mind that discriminates between the bodhisattvas and the not-bodhisattvas. I don't trust that mind that makes that discrimination, but I honor it. I want to honor it. And be kind to that mind and realize the emptiness of that. So I trust the Bodhisattva practices of kindness and wisdom towards the delusion system. I don't trust the delusion system, but not trusting it doesn't mean you don't pay attention to it. You don't trust your grandchildren.

[89:01]

They're totally unreliable. But you take care of them. you give them your utmost kindness and attention, but you don't trust them, you know they're deluded. But you don't love them less because they're deluded. Right? Usually. Same with your own mind and the same with the mind of adults. Love all this delusion. That's the practice of prajnaparmita. And I brought a picture. I want to show the kitchen the picture. This is in my office and this is a picture from Life Magazine, 1954. Almost 60 years ago this was in Life Magazine and I saw it and I thought, how beautiful. And the caption said, in deepest thought.

[90:06]

And I thought, yeah, if you have deep thought, it should be beautiful. Your body should be beautiful. So in the world of delusion, we can go do a beautiful thing. Sit like this. It's just a delusion, but we can go sit like this and take care of a simple practice like this. and realize that it's empty. I'm going to hang it this way in the room for now. Why do you have that hanging here? I was inspired by the wire. It's a really nice wire. It reminds me of enlightenment. Thank you for tolerating this obnoxious teaching.

[91:08]

I think you're getting used to it.

[91:11]

@Transcribed_v005
@Text_v005
@Score_90.35