I'd like to coordinate some different teachings in the Zen tradition. One is the teaching that came up in the story of Bajong and the wild fox. Another teaching is a teaching of Yaoshan and also Dogen Zenji's use of the teaching of Yaoshan on Zazen in terms of what we call thinking, not thinking and non-thinking. and also the teachings around the Buddha Mind Seal, which Avalokiteshvara transmits to China under the auspices of Bodhidharma.

[01:18]

And so going back to the story of the... ...by Jiang in his conversation with the wild fox spirit who became... It's about a living being who received the destiny or the responsibility of being a wild fox spirit. And the story of how this person became a wild fox spirit, the story is that he was asked if a highly cultivated person falls into cause and effect or not.

[02:41]

And in the story he said, no, highly cultivated person does not fall into karmic cause and effect. And then, according to his story, in conjunction with, or maybe even because of that, got to be a wild fox spirit. for 500 lifetimes. But I guess at a certain point, he felt like, well, I've had enough of this. Would you please give me a teaching? Would you give me a turning phrase? And Bajong said, OK, ask me. And so the old man says, does a highly cultivated person fall into cause and effect or not? And Bai Zhang said, does not ignore or obscure. The Chinese character, the Chinese characters are not, and the next character means to obscure or ignore or be ignorant.

[03:51]

And to say that now, today, that I suggest that the way that we obscure, well, the way we ignore cause and effect, it would be to not care about it. Don't even pay attention to your body, speech and mind. That would be to ignore it. But How do we obscure it? We obscure karmic cause and effect by believing the stories that arise in karmic consciousness about cause and effect. And so in the story that I just told you, to a highly cultivated person obscure cause and effect by that story of cause and effect.

[05:04]

So there's a story there of cause and effect. Well, first of all, there's a story of the The old monk, a long time before, when he was a head monk, he was asked about karmic cause and effect, and he answered in a way that had these consequences. That's a story about his karmic cause and effect. That's one example of a story. To apprehend that story as karmic cause and effect would obscure karmic cause and effect. Because karmic cause and effect is inconceivable. No story can explain it. Then the story, the larger story about the conversation between the former head monk who got to be a wild fox spirit and the current head monk, the great teacher, Baijong, that conversation is another story.

[06:19]

The story says a highly cultivated person does not obscure karmic cause and effect by the story that you're now hearing. If you listen to the story, that's fine, but if you grasp the story as describing, as actually comprehending karmic cause and effect, then that would obscure karmic cause and effect. That would oversimplify it. would deny karma cause and effect, and then you get to go on a wild fox tour for some period of time, which might be great. I mean, some people have highly praised this guy or girl, whatever it was, for just five hundred lifetimes of devoted service.

[07:30]

And I offered you a chance to recite a verse called Zazen Shin, and that verse is written by and it comes from a fascicle that he composed that has that verse in it and also has a verse which was written before his verse by a Chinese teacher which is also called Zazen-shin and the whole fascicle is called Zazen-shin. And that fascicle is in the Shōbō Genzo, you can read it if you want to. And there's different translations of it by different people. And Wilfeld, in his manuals of meditation, Dogen's manuals of meditation, he analyzes that fascicle, the Zazen-Chin fascicle.

[08:54]

So in that Classical, the first story that's dealt with. So we have a story now about, it starts with a story about Yaoshan, our ancestor Yaoshan, Yakusan Igen Daisho. And the story is, well, let me tell you a story before that story. When Yaoshan was still with his teacher, Sekito Gisen Daisho, who wrote the Sando Kai, the Harmony of Difference and Unity. When they were still living nearby each other, one day the teacher, Sekito, went to Yaka-san, who was sitting in meditation.

[10:00]

What are you doing sitting there?" And Yaka-san said, I'm not doing anything at all. The teacher, Sekito, said, well then are you sitting idly? And Yakusan said, if I was sitting idly, I would be doing something. He said, you say you're not doing anything at all. What is this, not doing anything at all? And Yakusan said, even the 10,000 sages don't know. And later, when Yakkasan's maybe not living with his teacher anymore, but has a bunch of students around him, he's sitting again.

[11:13]

He continued to sit after he left his teacher. He continued to sit when he was a teacher, and students would come to him and ask him what he was doing when he was sitting, or what he was thinking. And so he said, I'm thinking, or what kind of thinking are you doing, teacher, of not thinking? And the student said, how do you think of not thinking? And he said, non-thinking. And then as you know, some of you know, in the universal instructions for Zazen, Dogen says, think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Non-thinking. This is the essential art of Zazen. the differences between thinking... Yeah, the native speakers don't get it either.

[12:35]

And, I mean, the native Zen master speakers don't get it. If you get it, then you obscure cause and effect. So you're lucky. And then there's another thing I'd like to connect it with while I'm at it, is the Buddha Mind Seal. So you have the Buddha Mind Seal, which is what Avalokiteshvara is transmitting in the Heart Sutra, among other places. It's what Bodhidharma is transmitting. And Dogen Zenji says, when you express the Buddha mind seal in your three kinds of... So in your karma, he's saying when you express the Buddha mind seal in your karma, or through your karma, by sitting upright in samadhi.

[13:53]

the whole phenomenal world and the entire sky turns into enlightenment. So these three presentations I will offer some remarks to help you coordinate them and to help you learn how to practice mind seal in your three actions and learn how to think of not thinking and learn how to not obscure cause and effect, karmic cause and effect. So when people went to a Zen meditation hall and sit, their karmic consciousness makes a story is this. Their common consciousness is of what they're doing.

[15:05]

Like they think they're sitting at their seat and they think they're practicing. I smell something. electrical burning. It's a very hot topic. Yeah. The topic has blown out the... There's always that possibility. So you're sitting in the Zendo, you are sitting in the Zendo, and you're thinking... that you're sitting in a zendo. Or maybe, do any of you go sit in a zendo and think you're not sitting in a zendo? Any of you into that? We have some interesting people come. What? Sometimes forget we're in the zendo.

[16:11]

You sometimes forget you're in the zendo and then you think you're someplace else? You think you're not anywhere? Yeah, so that's another kind of thinking that you can do in the Zendo. And so whatever you think's going on in that room, when you're in that room, and also whatever you think's going on in that room, when you're not in that room, that's karmic. cause and effect in the form of what you think. But it's really just a little tiny reduced mental construction of what's going on in your life with all beings at that time.

[17:15]

Meantime, karmic cause and effect is going on. Is karmic consciousness the same as karmic cause and effect? Karmic cause and effect includes, the karmic cause and effect is how it happens that you're dreaming what you're dreaming, and it also how what you're dreaming transforms the whole universe. And what's karmic consciousness? Karmic consciousness is right now what's going on. Karmic consciousness is... Do you have a story now that you're in this room? Yeah. And that you're trying to understand karmic consciousness?

[18:17]

And that you're nodding your head? And that you're talking to me? That's what karmic consciousness looks like. How does it fit with it? Karmic cause and effect is how you have come to this amazing situation of being in this intensive and being in the intensive while you're in the intensive and the way that you're in the intensive, how that is transforming the universe, that's karmic cause and effect. And obscuring karmic cause and effect would be to think that what you see in karmic consciousness is karmic cause and effect. Like if you'd say, well, you know, the causation that got me here was that, you know, I went to high school in Berkeley and I got a job and somebody told me about the Zen Center and I thought that sounded cool, so I didn't go.

[19:32]

And then I changed my mind and I did go. And then I liked it, so I stayed. Didn't like it, so I left. Then I changed my mind and came back. That's my story of how I got to be here and why I'm talking like this. But that's not actually how things are working. Things are working in a much more ungraspable way. And the way it works is karmic cause and effect. Yes? If you took away the I or the ego that's doing that reasoning, would you have anything to do or anything left of karmic consciousness? No, there would be no karmic consciousness if you take away the self. So it has to do with like thinking of yourself as kind of a prime agent? Or even just an agent. You don't have to be prime.

[20:35]

That you think you're... And, you know, by yourself, usually. That you think you're... You're being Jay. I'm being Jay today. But I just think implicit in that sort of thought, it inherently puts yourself at the center. Yeah. not only am I here, but I'm at the center of here. A lot of people feel that way. Some people feel like they're sort of over at the edge, but, you know, really, I'm over at the edge and sort of, and this is where I, I'm right here at being me. So yeah, that's kind of what consciousness is like. But karmic cause and effect is the whole process of how you come to be such a conscious being and how the way your karma works makes a big difference in your life and everybody else's life.

[21:55]

That whole process that whole reality. Is there karma cause and effect separate from a person's understanding of karma cause and effect, or the story they're telling themselves about how it came to be? The first part you said was clear. Is karma consciousness separate from a person's what? A person's story. It is not separate because the story is supported by the causal process and the story transforms the process. And then you said some stuff after that real fast. Do you want to say what those things were? I'm just trying to understand, is it cause and effect? My story of how I came to be here, or is it kind of the story... Cause and effect is not your story, but you can have a story about cause and effect. But it's also not... somewhere in between what I think is happening and what's actually happening there?

[23:03]

You mean, what's in between? Karmic cause and effect is not in between what you think is happening and what's actually happening. Karmic cause and effect is the way karma actually works. And it includes everything you do. And everything you do includes karmic cause and effect. But karmic cause and effect is an inconceivable version of what you do. And karmic cause and effect is how everybody is supporting you and you're supporting everybody. And that's inconceivable. And the way that that works is the Dharma. If you see the way it works, you see the Dharma. If you see the Dharma, you see the Buddha. The Buddha is the way karmic cause and effect works. Karmic cause and effect. Buddha is the way it actually is working.

[24:05]

And the way it's actually working is good news. The way it's working is that beings are actually, well, it's partly good news and partly challenging news. Not bad news, just challenging news. cause and effect is working is that it is currently supporting obscuring karmic consciousness, obscuring cause and effect. Right now some people are believing their stories about how things work and that is obscuring cause and effect, so it's obscuring the Dharma. Okay? And some people are not adhering to their stories, and they're not obscuring karmic cause and effect, and they're seeing the Dharma, and they're seeing the Buddha, and they're actually in the process of freeing all beings so they may dwell in peace. Those things are going on together in karmic cause and effect.

[25:08]

Rachel? Sorry, can you just say whether Is there cause and effect outside your mind? I don't think so. I think your mind is totally immersed in karmic cause and effect. That there's any like... molecules bumping into each other in the sun that don't have, you know, some effect on you, that don't contribute to your life. And your life contributes to your karmic consciousness. Karmic consciousness is the totality of your life. Karmic consciousness is the problem of your life. Because that is what can obscure karmic cause and effect. And if karmic cause and effect is denied or obscured, then you don't see the truth.

[26:21]

What's obscuring our realization of the truth is this wonderful, wonderful, wonderful show that's going on called karmic consciousness, which is very powerful and we can learn reality there. In there, but we can learn reality by dealing with our common consciousness in a way which is called not obscuring. So when Dogen Zenji is commenting on thinking, not thinking and non-thinking, he says, he actually, the Strong One translation says, rather than love the carved dragon, you should go on to love the real dragon.

[27:29]

But I don't think he means don't love the carved dragon. I think he means rather than just love the carved dragon, move on to love the real. The carved dragon For example, the carved dragon. Zazen is the dragon. The Buddha mind seal is the dragon. What is it? Karmic causation, the way is the dragon. That's what Buddha understood under the Bodhi tree. He understood karmic cause and effect. He saw the dharma of it. That's the real dragon. So, move on from the carb dragon. What's the carb dragon? Carb dragon is our story of the universe, which has sub-stories like the story of Zen practice at Green Gulch or whatever, or the story of your life, or the story of how this period of meditation is going.

[28:35]

That's the carb dragon. And it says we should move on to love the real dragon. But then he says, we shouldn't like what's near at hand and we shouldn't despise it. Or another translation, we shouldn't esteem what nor should we despise it. We shouldn't esteem the what? The carved dragon. We shouldn't esteem our story of how our practice is going. And we shouldn't despise it. We should become intimate with it. And we shouldn't esteem the real dragon. And we shouldn't despise it. We should become intimate with it. So he says, rather than love the carved dragon, you should love the real dragon.

[29:39]

But the real dragon is not liking and disliking the real dragon. Loving the real dragon is becoming intimate with it. But what about the carb dragon? We should love both dragons. So one dragon you're somewhat familiar with, I think. I think most of you are somewhat familiar with various carved dragons that you've met. The various stories you've had of your practice. Those are carved dragons. Those are your karmic consciousness version of the Buddha way. Don't attach to those stories. That's... When you love the stories of your practice, you don't attach to them, you don't grasp them.

[30:45]

If you grasp the stories of your practice, that will obscure karmic cause and effect, and that will obscure the Dharma. If you grasp your story of the essential art of zazen, if you grasp your story of the Buddha mind seal, that will obscure the Buddha mind seal. So we should train to love the Buddha Mind Seal, but not by liking or disliking it, by becoming intimate with it. But the first thing, so one way to become intimate with it is to think about it all the time. But when you think about it, that's the carved dragon version of it. So, we have a Carved Dragon in our consciousness and we can become intimate with it by letting go of liking and disliking it.

[32:13]

Dogen goes on a little bit further and says, do not give weight to the eyes and do not take them lightly. Don't give weight Don't give importance to the eyes and do not take them lightly. Do not give weight to the ears and do not take them lightly. Make them clear and sharp. The eyes and the ears are in the realm of the carved dragon, where we see and hear. So don't give weight to what... This is again about observing sentient beings and listening to them. Don't give weight to your ears and don't take your ears lightly. Learn to listen clearly and learn to observe sentient beings without giving weight to what you see or taking it lightly. See clearly. This is training.

[33:17]

This is learning to be a carved dragon. And by being intimate to the carbon dragon, this is also a way to become intimate with the real dragon. By being intimate with the conceivable karmic consciousness, by being intimate with it, we do not cling to it. When we do not cling to it, it doesn't obscure the real dragon. But we also need to remember as part of our not clinging, that this is not the real dragon. This is just a conscious construction of the real dragon. But if I take proper care of this conscious construction, if I open the door to the conscious construction, if I'm really intimate and loving

[34:19]

then I'm simultaneously, and I always am simultaneously with the real dragon, but unless I'm really open and familiar and intimate with the carved, I won't be open and intimate with the real. So again, the Buddha mind, if you, everything you do all day long, you can make all your actions devote all your actions to express this Buddha mind seal. But then you need to take care of your actions in this way of not giving your actions weight or taking them lightly, making your actions clear. And in that way, your actions are the opportunity to express something far beyond and not enclosed by your actions. So that's to coordinate teachings you hear here about the Buddha mind seal, about thinking, not thinking.

[35:32]

Not thinking is the real dragon. Thinking is the carved dragon. And non-thinking, thinking with your thinking so that your thinking doesn't obscure you're not thinking. In fact, your thinking does not obscure your not thinking. Your thinking is not thinking. The carved dragon is the real dragon and isn't. Okay, so that's what I want to mention to you. Yes? like saying that samsara and nirvana come up together? Is that another way of saying that? Uh-huh, yeah. And if you know how to take care of nirvana, go ahead and take good care of it.

[36:35]

And if you know how to take care of samsara, go ahead and... Most people have plenty of samsara to take care of. So if you take care of it properly, you'll realize that samsara is not the slightest bit different from nirvana. That samsara is the place where nirvana is different from samsara. So we have half dragon and the real dragon. If I can imagine the half dragon... Could you speak up, please? Can you hear her in back? They can slightly hear you. Dragons, calf dragon and real dragon. If I can imagine, the calf dragon is the small island that we tend to live, and the real dragon is the inconceivable ocean. And on Sunday talk, you mentioned there are

[37:39]

So one mind lives in this island. The other mind lives in the inconceivable body. So my question is... Well, there's two bodies. There are two bodies. There's a little body, a little circle, and there's a big body. Well, it's not even big. It's just inconceivable. The question is more related to the mind, the two body and two mind, but about these two minds, what is the mind that is observing these two minds? What is the mind that's observing them? It's called the Buddha mind. So the Buddha mind is neither the mind in considerable body, neither or nor in Yeah, it's neither, right? It's the third mind? You could say a third mind, yeah. See, both at the same time.

[38:43]

Bodhisattvas switch back and forth. Is this the mind we should cultivate? Well, if you're interested in an unceasing effort to free all beings so they may dwell in peace, this would be the appropriate mind. But I'm not telling you what you should do. If that's what you want, this is the mind for you. So in my story, am I allowed to imagine that this third mind... Are you allowed to imagine? That this third mind is like a small island and the vast ocean. Is it a bridge? And you can go back and forth, check it out, or travel around. I don't know if it's a bridge exactly.

[39:47]

It's the way we relate it to the inconceivable. You could say it's the non-duality. this mind which is a non-duality. You could say that. But I wouldn't go for it being a bridge. But there are bridges. For example, the Sangha is kind of a bridge. From samsara over to nirvana and then to come back after you get there to bring some friends back with you again. Song is kind of a bridge. But that isn't the totality of the Buddha. So the way we relate it to this inconceivable world, we can taste a little bit of it, but we can never understand it. No, you are tasting all of it all the time.

[40:54]

You're always tasting the whole And you're sharing the taste with everybody, all day long. When I say you, I mean your actual life. Your actual life. All of this, all the time. right. And so that's why we practice so we'll realize that because karmic consciousness that isn't applied to practice, there can be lots of stress and fear and then in that situation actually it's hard then to practice also. But if you have practice with the stress and the fear, actually the stress and the fear start with the practice and eventually liberate the karmic consciousness.

[42:06]

The question behind my question is that I try to understand the practice itself. So since we cannot really understand the intensive of a word, trying to understand it, is it not encouraged? The effort to understand it, the effort to realize it or to become it is encouraged. And we're trying to realize what is real. And what is real is what we already are. We're trying to realize and become what we really, truly already are. And we have to practice in order to realize what we are, because what we are is that we're practitioners. Practitioners. We're actually practitioners of our life. But the life we're actually practitioners of

[43:08]

is a lot bigger than the life we go around thinking we have. We're actually practicing with and as the whole ocean. Practice in the circle, celebrating that, that part in a sense can seem to be manifesting suffering, fear, and violence. But actually, We're being afraid and at risk of violence. We're simultaneously, at that moment, tasting the great truth with all beings. But we don't understand that because we are not letting go of karmic consciousness. So karmic consciousness is obscuring the way things are actually working. And the way things are actually working includes that some beings are obscuring

[44:09]

That's part of karmic consciousness. The Buddha sees some people are ignoring karmic consciousness and therefore they're suffering. But the Buddha simultaneously sees how beautiful it really is and wants to help everybody appreciate that. Buddhists see both at the same time. Bodhisattvas switch back and forth. They say, oh, people are ignoring it. Oh, how to pity, how sad they're ignoring the good friends with everybody, so they're afraid and they're going to be violent towards their good friends. Oh, how sad. Bodhisattvas see that. Buddhas do too. But Buddhas simultaneously see everybody's helping everybody become Buddha. How beautiful, how peaceful, how harmonious. See that too. But they switch. They go see, oh, how beautiful, and then they come back, oh, how beautiful, oh. So Buddha sees both simultaneously, bodhisattvas switch back and forth.

[45:12]

Some of you maybe have switched a few times yourself. At a moment we saw, oh my God, my friend, oh my God, only some of these people are my friends. And I'm going to go over with my friends. That actually happens here sometimes. I think some people actually think that some of the people are friends, not all. But that's part of bodhisattva life is to see, oh, it looks like, it looks like some, there's some obstruction of karmic cause and effect due to clinging to karmic consciousness. It looks like that and it's very sad. But I wish to work to help people become free of this obstruction Because that's what we're cultivating. That's what a highly cultivated person is trying to do. They're trying to study their karmic consciousness in such a way that their karmic consciousness does not deny the way things are actually functioning.

[46:24]

Julian? Trying to reconcile Baojuan and Something you quoted of Dogen years ago. In the first place, we have the highly cultivated person is not ignorant of cause and effect. But some years ago, I can't remember the entire quote, but you talked at some length during 1 January about a phrase from Dogen about with great cause and effect. Yeah. Yeah. Great faith and cause and effect. is the name of one of his fascicles in which he discusses his story. And another one of his fascicles is called, I think, Great Awakening, where he discusses the same story. So Dogen has great faith in cause and effect, which means I have great faith in studying cause and effect

[47:34]

so that it doesn't, you know, studying karmic consciousness cause and effect becomes clear. Study the story of Baijong with all his twists and turns as a meditation aid so you can do the same with your own stories. He believes in karmic cause and effect. He really believes in unwholesome actions bring pain, wholesome actions bring happiness. But study that, because that's another story. Don't let that story, which he's saying, that's... But what does that mean? That's some words about an inconceivable process, which I really believe it's important to study that. It's not so much that he believes in causation. Everybody believes in causation. But not everybody believes that their version of it is the reality of it.

[48:41]

Okay? Yes? Paula? Is the bodhisattva at risk because of his or her vow of losing realization? a bodhisattva is at risk of attaching to their vow. And at the point of attachment, we get distracted from realization. And I think Grace said, I think during this intensive, Grace, maybe it wasn't, she said something about intensifying our intention or intensifying our vow. Did you say that? Yeah. Intensifying our intention. So we have intentions in karmic consciousness, and intentions are things that I have, I intend to talk to, and I'm doing this. That's an example of intention. And so it's good to intensify the intention so that you can see if there's any clinging to the intention.

[49:53]

Because the intention is like a story. The story is I'm here with you and I'm going to be your friend. the intention. If I intensify that by making, not only am I here, but I vow to be here. Not only do I want to be your friend, I vow to be your friend. If I intensify my story, that will help me notice if there's any clinging to the story, because no clinging to my story, so my story will not obscure karmic cause and effect, will not obscure the Dharma. Again, the Buddha says, if you see dependent core arising, you see the Dharma. He's teaching causation. It's not so much that if they have vows that they're going to lose realization. It's that they may have already lost realization and having vows will point out to them how they lose it.

[50:57]

And they must have this in order to find this mind that doesn't abide anywhere. Bodhisattvas must have bodhisattva vows in order to be bodhisattvas. Bodhisattvas vow to not attain anything. They aspire to attain and also vow to not attain anything, to be somebody who doesn't have anything. in order to not have something but realize something. Yes, Kristin? Hearing this illustration of the carved dragon versus the real dragon, and then listening to some of what's being said about karmic consciousness versus the inconceivable reality It sounds like sometimes the idea that karmic consciousness is small, almost like spatially.

[52:05]

Can you hear her in the back? And the inconceivable reality is vast. But what came to mind was an illustration I just read, where he says, you can't have one foot of water without one foot of water. And so it just occurred to me to ask whether the illustration of the carved dragon and the true dragon is essentially the same. I mean, they're there together in the same place, the one foot away. And so the truth of the way is the truth of the water. Again, water is just another story. So it has its limitations. but something about how they're there in the same place. It's not as though there's karmic consciousness here, but the dual reality is beyond, almost spatially. I agree that reality is not beyond.

[53:09]

The beyond is a concept of karmic consciousness. Would you say that the illustration of the heart dragon I don't know if it's the same, but I would say the illustration is the illustration for karmic consciousnesses. The illustration is not the illustration for inconceivable reality. It doesn't have illustrations. is to help karmic consciousnesses orient themselves properly so that they don't obscure what they most don't want to obscure namely the reality which will bring peace to them and the inconceivable reality is not beyond consciousness might think it is but also karmic consciousness might say wait a minute beyond doesn't really make sense that would render the inconceivable somewhat conceivable

[54:10]

I don't know anything about the inconceivable except one thing I do know, it's beyond. No. And it's not big and it's not small. Those are consciousness concepts. They're not spatially... Time and space occurs... Time and space is a karmic consciousness thing. Yes. I notice myself this habitual way that I'm going to, when I notice a story that I have, to, in order to free my mind from that story, I want to sort of get back from the story, or away from the story, as if the truth is away from right here. That's good to notice that. And if you notice that, then when you hear the instruction, don't despise the carved dragon.

[55:13]

That would say, don't lean back from it. And also don't lean into it. Upright with the carved dragon. But notice, part of being upright is to notice when you're shrinking back from it. So it's to be intimate with what you just talked about. And part of being intimate is notice that you're leaning back from it. I'm leaning back and the ancestors are telling me, that you're leaning back, but understand the instruction is not to lean back and not to lean forward, not to lean right, not to lean left. Be upright with karmic consciousness. And that, again, in order to find that, we have to notice that we're not upright. And that's habitual to lean from some stuff and lean towards other stuff. But this is a situation which can be liberated is the proposal. Yes.

[56:17]

Oh, just a second. You had your hand raised. I think you answered it. Our story about the karmic cause and effect is karmic consciousness. Yes. You said yes. Yeah. Is karmic cause and effect also a card for Dharma's real life? Yeah. inconceivable, you know, if you're ready for this, inconceivable reality is also just an idea. We don't want to make, you know, the real dragon into something real. Is inconceivability just built into this, or is it something that we could conceive of if we were a little smarter, or worked harder? Is inconceivably built in.

[57:21]

And when you say Buddha understood karmic cause and effect, did he conceive of it then, or did he just realize it? he realized it, which was beyond his conception of it. And by the power of karmic cause and effect, he then conceived of it again and said, I found a middle way. He started talking. But he went beyond words. He went beyond karma. And going beyond to it, he opened to realizing this inconceivable process. And a lot of philosophers say that it's inconceivable, but they don't think that anybody can realize it. The Buddhist said, I actually realized it. And then he came back from the inconceivable into the conceivable. He used people's karmic consciousness, he used them as the arena in which his Dharma would come to them.

[58:31]

And when it came to them, it came into words because they have linguistic karmic consciousness. Light from the inconceivable realm and people are translating it into their language. and the Buddha says, okay, go ahead, I'll work with you on that. I was going to mention, well, I'll say this. I remember some time ago, I think I read, rather than heard Gary Snyder say something about Zen, the Zen school of Mahayana and the Vajrayana school.

[59:37]

In Japan, he studied at Rinzai Zen temples. He lived in Kyoto, which is where the five very big Rinzai monasteries are, which have lots of sub-monsteries inside them. And so it was an imperial city and the Rinzai school had lots of imperial connections. And so I don't I don't know if Gary Snyder had practiced in Soto Zen tradition. But anyway, he said, he made this summary. He said, Zen goes down fast and comes up slowly. And Vajrayana goes down slow and comes up slowly.

[60:40]

Zen goes down fast and comes up slowly. He said slow, I think, but anyway. And Vajrayana goes down slowly and comes up fast. I'm having trouble with the image of going down the gullet. No, no. The practice goes down like... goes down to emptiness, goes down to the inconceivable, goes down to the true dragon, and then comes up slowly. And I think Soto Zen is more, is sort of maybe between Rinzai and Vajrayana. Soto Zen, I think, goes down more slowly. I think Dogen Zenji goes down slowly. I think Dogen Zenji goes down slowly and comes up slowly. So going down slowly means work with your karmic consciousness so that it doesn't obscure reality.

[62:08]

rather than find a kind of small section of your karmic consciousness to work with to the inconceivable rapidly. I wouldn't exactly say Rinzai does that, but I think that was Gary Snyder's impression. And some Buddhist scholars have said that they feel Looking at not Dogen, they say that Zen doesn't really acknowledge karma. It looks like that to some good scholars. But then there's this deep faith in cause and effect of Dogen. I don't know about that.

[63:23]

But I would say that I got involved in studying Soto Zen texts which were dealing with bodhisattva precepts because I really had bodhisattva precepts in Zen school. I hadn't heard much discussion of precepts which are related to action, of course. And the Zen understanding of these precepts, not the usual, you know, the Zen understanding is not the usual understanding, but there is a Zen understanding that goes into detail on these precepts, these bodhisattva ethical precepts. An example of this is we have this precept.

[64:26]

We have these ten major bodhisattva precepts. The first one is the precept of not killing. And the way we chant it in our Bodhisattva ceremony is we say, a disciple of Buddha does not kill. I think that's true. A disciple of Buddha does not kill. If you're involved in killing at that moment, you're not a disciple of Buddha. But the way that Soto Zen actually says the precept, the precept is not, don't kill. or refrain from killing, it says it's the precept of not killing. Not killing is the precept. So in a way that's going down slow is don't kill. and watch your karmic consciousness and see if there's any impulses to kill and then have this precept called don't kill to intensify your awareness of .

[65:39]

Not killing is like the true dragon. So then the commentary on not killing is life is not to kill. That's what life is. And that's actually pretty safe to say that's really what life is, is not to kill. And it says, let the Buddha seed grow and succeed to the wisdom a Buddha not taking life. And here comes the deep part. Life is not killed. But a life is not killed too fast might not be recommended for beginners.

[66:48]

That's very deep. Life is not killed. And someone might say, well, if life's not killed, then I'll just do whatever I want. There will be no killing, so I can do whatever I want, because life is not killed. And if I see life not killed, that's what life is, right? Yes. But also, succeed to the wisdom of Buddha not taking life. So studying those precepts, studying that precept, meditating on that precept, and then not letting your understanding of that precept, that precept is, don't let your story about what not killing is obscure what not killing is. So there could be techniques by which you very carefully go down to that truth, and then once you get down there very carefully, then you can like, you're pretty much done.

[68:16]

Another way is to be introduced of life is not killed, and then integrate that with your daily life in meticulous detail. And there's another precept which is not slandering others and not praising self at the expense of others. So as you do this process, observe not praising yourself at the expense of others. Observe that precept. And then if you see yourself praising yourself at the expense of others, then admit that that's what you see, confessing that that's what you see. If you see, oh, there was a moment where I actually praised myself and I didn't put anybody down.

[69:18]

Okay, that's... And don't let that obscure cause and effect either. But you don't have to confess. If that ever happens, you don't have to confess it. Matter of fact, don't confess it. Keep it to yourself. But if you see a good path that really seems appropriate and beneficial, that's great, but don't take that path as yours and put yourself up by putting down people who are another path. So this going down fast and coming down slowly, coming up faster, going down slowly and coming up slowly, all these different ways are options and we should become intimate with all of them according to some people.

[70:22]

I'm thinking about what you suggest us to do, and then in the end, we will hear Dharma. But I don't hear it yet, so... That's your story. So I am working on intimacy, or at least in Rohan, they said the same thing for me. I am too. We talked a lot about how to be intimacy. Bring compassion, be patient, and grace, and gent, all these things. It has answered the question of how, but I have a question of what. So I'm trying to figure out that what. Please check out whether I understand it in the right way. The way that I I listen to something intimately or wholeheartedly is to check with many, many times the question of really?

[71:38]

Why? Until in the end, I can attribute everything that happened to the inconceivable world. Then I hear the doubt or see the doubt. Is that the process that you would agree on? For example, if I hear a voice... Yes, I will. I agree on it. Just to elaborate a little, for example, I hear a voice. He didn't treat me fairly. Yeah. That's a famous voice. Then I would ask myself, really? I say, yes. Really? Yes. And I would answer, because it doesn't like me. And then I will ask myself, really? Yes. Really? Yes. But then, maybe there's voice asking myself, is that your own story? That when you sing, it doesn't like me. What is the truth? then the answer may be no.

[72:43]

And then the answer may lead me to the inconceivable world that is working on both of us. Is that the process or the practice? That is a process. And I support you on that process. But that's not the only way. If you want to change to another process, let me know and I'll support that one. But part of the process is to share your process with somebody so that they can because we're trying to realize that we're in a process of supporting each other. So you're telling me about this meditation you're doing So I can hear what your meditation is and I can support your meditation. I can support your learning by... Because otherwise you might close the door on some help.

[73:51]

But you're not closing the door, you're opening the door. Thank you. May I bring up a question I've been thinking about, which is... The mind that she was, the voice that was telling her why and the voice that was answering. It's in those voice, he wasn't fair to me. No, the voice that was... No, I know, but also the voice that says he wasn't fair to me. That's another voice. That is another voice, exactly. But sometimes we'll hear a voice that will... It sounds like it's true. saying I would mean that yeah the voice that might see oh maybe so yeah so you hear another voice that's giving you perspective that you haven't thought of um so what I'm saying is sometimes I feel there is a voice that is giving good suggestions to me in terms of my practice to pay attention to that voice

[74:59]

Or what is that voice that's giving me ideas of how I might practice in a different way from what that other voice was suggesting? Am I being clear? I thought it was crystal clear. I guess the question is, can I trust that voice that's saying, well, it could be because of this? I think that would be going a bit far. So, I think that some people would say to you, when you hear this voice, that sounds true or really like a good instruction. Okay? Don't take that lightly and don't give it weight. Become intimate with that. Now, when you hear an instruction that sounds like really bad advice, okay? Take that lightly.

[76:01]

and don't give it weight. I've got some bad advice for you here, and I've got some good advice for you. I'll give them to you later. But when I give them to you, before I give them to you, are you ready to not take this lightly and not give it weight? If you become intimate with the bad advice I give you, the Dharma clouds will form. And if you do good advice, the Dharma clouds will form. The dragons will work if you orient yourself properly to good advice and bad advice. So are those voices that you're hearing still part of the Dharma clouds? Yeah, yeah.

[77:09]

Words are karmic consciousness. You know, the Buddhas are giving us advice, but the Buddha's advice is like the... But it's hard for us to understand what light means, so we translate Buddha's wisdom light into words. And sometimes the translation's not too good. One time the Buddha went on a little walk and he came back and his assembly was, there was much less people in his assembly, he said, where is everybody? And can you believe this? They said, well, a lot of monks committed suicide. They thought that's what you were telling them to do. And he's such a powerful teacher that if they thought the Buddha was going to die, they would go, and he said, oh, that's not what I meant. So then he said to the monks, you know, I don't mean that you would kill yourself when I say, you know, don't give weight to the body.

[78:16]

The Buddha was . People heard him and made up stories about what he's telling and they gave weight to it because he's such a great teacher. They didn't take his words lightly, but they should not take his words lightly, but also don't give them weight. The Buddha's words are not the words of Dharma that you can hear if you listen to the words properly. So when you hear good advice, we want to learn how to listen to the good advice in such a way that we hear the Dharma. And good advice does appear in consciousness. And generally speaking, it sounds like this. Be kind to all beings. That's kind of like what good advice sounds like. Everyone is your good friend. Be good friend to all beings. This is good advice. But if you give weight to that, that's a story, it will obscure the inconceivable process of cause and effect, which is the Dharma, which is the Buddha.

[79:31]

It reminds me of one time I told this story. I took a walk with somebody here at Green Gulch up in the hills. Nice long walk. It was very nice. We came down to what used to be the office and I was done with the walk pretty much and I wanted to go on with some other things in my life and the person just kept talking to me. And And you know how it is sometimes when somebody's talking to you and you're trying to get away or you seem to be losing interest, they start talking faster, you know, to make sure that you won't, you know, be uninterested in what they're saying. They start saying more things and they're giving you less and less chance to say, I... And so I was talking to him and I was getting weaker and weaker because I was trying to get away from him. And that was not the thing to do. I should have embraced him.

[80:37]

I should have given him a big hug. I probably would have found out. After asking him if I could give him a hug, I should have given him a hug. And then I probably would have said, this was a great talk, see you later. But I was like, I was like, you know, I was trying to get away. And the more he talked, the more I felt weak and heartbroken. And I was practically almost like collapsing. Just really. And he's really a nice guy. He's just talking faster and faster. And then this voice came up in me. And the voice was, I love you, Rebbe. And I said to him, thank you so much for the talk. See you later. It wasn't advice, exactly. It was just like, it was just embracing the situation. And it was intimacy, you know. And then it freed me from trying to get away, so I could get away.

[81:47]

I think it was life. Because it freed him, too. Life is really, life is really freedom. If it wasn't, life is amazingly free and alive. And it has sponsored our wonderful karmic consciousnesses, which are very effective for many wonderful purposes, but they have design flaws. Karmic consciousness is deceptive. I told you before. And we have to deal with it, you know, properly. Don't give it weight. Don't take it lightly. Become intimate with it. If you're intimate with it, which is a really challenging job, the doors of liberation open. In this, what's going on there, the way it's actually going on, in the suchness of mind and objects, if you see what's going on in your common consciousness, the doors of liberation open.

[82:56]

But it's hard to have the proper orientation when we're getting slapped from right and left, and patted gently from right and left, and praised and blamed. It's hard to have the proper orientation. But that's normal. Can you talk about don't kill and not kill? Yeah. Those things, he-shi-yo and fu-shi-yo, he and fu difference? I think that the not of not is fu, is not. Don't kill is he. No, I don't know what don't kill is. I don't know what to care for, don't. But fu is not, it's not don't. It's not like this Dharma name I gave to my grandson when he was pressuring me to give him a Dharma name.

[84:10]

The Dharma name I gave him was fu nam, which means not patient. Foo. Not. It wasn't don't. It wasn't don't patient. It's not. So I'm not sure off the top of my head the character for don't. But it's not don't. It's not. It's not telling us not to be away. It's telling us really the way to be. The way to be is not killing. You said life is not kill. That life is... not the body of life, something more than just one body. That's why life is not healed. But my question is... The story you just told, okay, that's a story. Not take lightly. and not give way to. That's a story. And I can talk to you about that, but that's going to be a story about the reason for the precept not killing is no story.

[85:16]

No story can tell you that. The reason not killing is because Buddha is Buddha. When you're completely enlightened, when you've embraced the inconceivable reality of the causation of the universe with all life, then you teach not killing. That's the reality that comes from enlightenment. I'm not enlightened, so I wonder, so life is not killed and death is two different things. that death seems to happen all the time and its reality seems... Buddha's enlightenment is freedom from death. Buddha's life is freedom from life and death. And without being separate from it, because Buddha is not separate from life and death. Neil, did you have a question before you go? It's more of a command, yeah.

[86:22]

Yeah. Don't kill is more like an instruction or a command. Not killing is more like a statement of reality. So the last part of Dogen's comment on the precept of not killing is life is not killed. Buddha realizes life is, our actual life is not killed, which in some anthropologist or philosopher might say, see, Zen's really just about denial of death. That is trying to free people from their fear of death. There is a life that is infinite. the Buddha has realized. You know the Buddha Amitabha, Amida Buddha? That means infinite light. Yes. There's another name, another Buddha called Amitayu. It means infinite life. Buddha is infinite life.

[87:24]

Not immortality, I would say, but life is infinite. And we, that's the real dragon. The real dragon is infinite life. And we can learn to love infinite life, but we also have to love life. Finite means the small life, my life. I have to love my life, which seems, I seem to have a life that's coming to an end. It looks like that. It's going to be over. So I'm taking, I'm trying to be, I'm trying to love this life, this little life I have. Because I understand that if I don't love this little life, I will close the door on infinite life. And I want to love infinite life. I want to be intimate with infinite life. And I have this, in my finite life, I have this theory that if I really love the infinite life, the little bit left I have of the small life will be a lot more enjoyable.

[88:29]

That as I'm deteriorating, towards this little life, I feel uplifted by my love of the big life, of the infinite life. So that even though my little life is kind of a wreck, maybe I'll be really happy and show other people that wrecked lives are not the end of the world, really. They're just the end of the little karmic world, karmic consciousness. So I think Buddha's wisdom is life is not killed. Therefore, he doesn't really, Buddha doesn't, to his senior disciples, he doesn't say don't kill. He says life is not killed. Learn the wisdom which does not take life, where there's no life taking. Learn that. Yes?

[89:36]

I'm thinking of that line from the Genjuro Koan about Death is an expression complete this moment. And I read that that character for birth can also be life. So I'm thinking of that in relationship to this discussion of life being not killed and what Dogen says there. It means both life and birth. An expression complete this moment. And also, life does not turn into death. Therefore, we have the teaching of no life or no birth. Yes, Angel? Can you explain a little bit more about what you mean when you say life? What do I mean by it? When I say life, I mean the inconceivable reality of our life.

[90:47]

The life that... My actual life experience is what I mean by life. And my dream of life, my karmic dream of life, is a limited version of my life. And I'm dreaming that, and in that dream there's indications that this life is going to be over pretty soon. That kind of life. So I have two lives. I have one life which I share with you, and all beings that's infinite and which no idea I have about it reaches it. And I have another life which is a mental construction and that mental construction is going along by a process of cause and effect. I don't understand because it's inconceivable but I see indications that this life is coming to an end. That's another life.

[91:49]

you look like that you have a lot of questions about what I just said. You can't quite say anything? What does it mean to me to have life? Yeah, is it, you know, something as simple as anything that, you know, breathes or anything that lives on this earth? Or is it something more deeper than that?

[92:55]

Well, I just guess I would say that what I mean by life, what I mean by life is my actual experience. And my actual experience is conceivable. That's how I understand. And I have a conceivable life, but that's not my experience, that's just a cognitive shrinking of my experience down to something that I can grasp conceptually. That small conceptual version of my life, that's very impermanent, and I see all kinds of signs of its impermanence. That's another kind of, it's a kind of life, but it's life within karmic consciousness. My experience, my understanding is that the, you could say, this understanding of my actual life experience seems to make me care more skillfully for my limited life experience, seems to make me more confident, and seems to teach me how not to give too much weight to it, and how not to take it lightly, and how to love it.

[94:29]

but not love it like attached to it, but love it in order to liberate it, so that I'm not so distressed and frightened about this person, this experience, being sick, falling apart, and dying. In other words, it seems to be conducive to freedom from suffering. But I find it helpful to have this teaching that there's a reality of actual experience that's going on that helps me not take my knowable realm too seriously, which I seem to find is very stressful and makes me less courageous. If I take my stories seriously, I become frightened.

[95:31]

And I like to be free of fear, and I become more free of fear as I become aware of my idea of life. And I really like also not to be violent. But if I'm afraid, I could become violent. I really don't want to do that. But within my own little story, I'm pretty vulnerable to violence. Unless I had some teaching which says this is not something to grasp, it's not something to disregard, but it's something to pay attention to and not let it obscure the reality which is liberated from this little painful story, or big painful story. Like Susie Gracie said, our small mind is big enough to have lots of problems. Yes?

[96:35]

I don't mean to say experience of inconceivable. I mean to say my experience is inconceivable. Experience is inconceivable. Not experience of the inconceivable is more like my idea about it. That's conceivable. But there's not experience of the inconceivable. The inconceivable is not some idea. It's our actual life experience. That's what I'm going for. A life experience which is experience, which is inconceivable. And also, because it's inconceivable, it's completely unhindered and completely unreachable. Can't put it in a cage. Traps and snares cannot reach it. It's liberation and life. Life is liberation.

[97:50]

Life is not to kill. This is Buddha's wisdom. Yeah, so you should study Kant. You should study Kant. That will help you. You can read him. Actually, let me go on with your thing. Sorry. Well, of course the actual experience I can't phrase, the actual experience of my life is What's happening is nothing I can phrase or put into words.

[98:52]

Yeah. So is that what you're talking about? No, but that's what you're talking about, which is related to what you're saying. I hear you. So let's do that, shall we? Al? Does a conceivable mind have something to do with rebirth? birth and death and rebirth that all occurs within the conceptual mind. No, not within the inconceivable, but the inconceivable in an inconceivable way supports a consciousness which is involved in birth and death. And the idea of rebirth occurs in karmic consciousnesses.

[99:58]

And when it appears in karmic consciousnesses, some people give it weight and some people take it lightly. And then some people don't give it weight or take it lightly. They become intimate with it. Rebirth. Did you hear that? Rebirth. It's in your consciousness now, right? Is there anybody who couldn't hear that, who didn't get into their consciousness? Rebirth. Okay? That's something to become intimate with. If you become intimate with the word rebirth, that's the essential art of zazen. But if you take rebirth lightly or give it weight, you're getting a little off of the essential art of zazen, which means you're getting a little off of the practice, which means you're getting a little off of the realization. Even if there's a hairsbreadth deviation in your relationship with the word rebirth.

[101:08]

Now if somebody else says nonsense, if you're a hairsbreadth off from being nonsense, it would be the same. All phenomena appearing, if we don't orient properly towards them, then our realization of reality is more or less, usually more, usually quite hindered. Are you trying to point me over to Grace? Yes? And the word was space. Today, you talked about the space being just a word to create what's also evolving from the consciousness.

[102:14]

In that context, which was talking about the Earth Sutra, there was some way in which space was an exception to the world of words creating karmic consciousness. Do I have that correct? Oh, space is one of these three unproduced, uncreated dharmas. There's two kinds of nirvana and space. Is that what you're referring to? Yeah. Do you have a question about that? Do you know how to deal with that, Grace? Don't take it lightly and don't give it weight. Become intimate with it.

[103:17]

Space is the same, but the way of relating to it is the same. But there is also a difference between these dharmas. But the way of relating, I would say, is the same. And the fact that they exist in a slightly different categorization also confuses me. Deal with that in the same way. So it's like, okay, say, well, the teaching is pretty simple. Don't give weight to your eyes. and don't take them lightly. Give weight to your ears and don't take them lightly. Pretty simple instruction. Not easy to do, but simple. And why is it not easy to do? Because after you're doing this practice, then somebody says, there's 75 dharmas in this Vastavadan system. 72 have outflows and three don't. Compounded and three aren't.

[104:22]

What are the three that aren't? Two kinds of nirvana and space. That stuff gets put out for you to deal with to see if you cannot give it weight. And also not take it lightly. So some people say, ah, get out of here, 75 dollars. And if they do, then we hear that, and we don't give that weight, and we don't take it lightly. We listen to that. So these Abhidharma terms are like, for some Buddhists, they're their kato. Do you understand? I'm a Buddhist student of Abhidharma, so I get all these Abhidharma attacks to see if I can be properly oriented. You know? Even when people say two kinds of nirvana and space are uncompounded and all the other dharmas aren't. All the others are compounded and all the others have outflows and those three don't and stuff like that.

[105:27]

One time I was over in that room there studying avidharma with my future wife and the only translation I had to work on was in French and Chinese, so she was helping me translate the French Abhidharma Kosha. And while we were translating it, she wanted to talk about something else. Can you imagine that? Can you imagine she wanted to divert the conversation from the Abhidharma Kosha? Or maybe you can imagine that she wanted to... And I noticed some resistance to that. And I thought, this resistance is antithetical to what I'm studying here. Teaching, which is challenging you to take it seriously, to give it weight, because you're making this big effort and you're getting somebody to translate it from French and so on.

[106:32]

You're all set up to take it, to give it weight. And I gave it too much weight. Most people take it too lightly and never look at it. I can take the Abhidharma lightly. But I was not taking it lightly and I veered over into giving it too much weight. So this is a thing to, you know, keep studying the vast and detailed Dharma of our tradition without giving it weight or taking it lightly. To become intimate with it as a test of your consciousness. And do that with everything. Do it with politics, do it with religion, do it with music, dance, philosophy, psychology. food, community, everything.

[107:35]

This is all karmic consciousness. It's all we... Again, it's all we have means that's where our problems are. That's where we have to work. You're welcome. Julian? Oh, we do it like this. We do not say that summer is that that summer is the beginning of fall no that's well stop that just stop

[108:58]

Birth does not turn into death. Birth has its own position of birth. They don't turn into each other. That's the teaching. This life does not turn into death. But I also want to be honored and I want to love this life that I've got here that I understand it's limited But it's not going to turn into death. It's going to be life, as long as it's life. But then I understand that that might come to a conclusion. But it's never... This life, that life, they're never going to turn into teaching. Therefore, there really isn't death. But that still doesn't mean we should not take care of this life. It's wonderful to take care of. Myouyu. So... This is a bit of a story. I saw some images yesterday that have been spread around the world of leaders, as they call it, in the world, hand in arm in arm.

[110:12]

Wasn't that sweet? Yes. And on the captions, it is varied from sort of like leaders that are supporting... leaders walking with the crowd leaders. And anyway, and this picture is from knees up. From knees up. From knees up. And then I came across another angle of that photo, which is taken from on high. And the people are in the same position, linking their arms in exactly the same way. And they're surrounded by space and security people. And there's no demonstration anywhere near where they are.

[111:13]

And that brought up this question about... about the manipulation of the news and who's manipulating it and for what reason. And out of that there's the karmic consciousness. My feeling at the moment is the karmic consciousness is like of the publicity of the picture and the statements of the picture. You sound like you're talking about consciousness. No, no, that's what I'm getting to. It's because it feels like all those pictures can lead to counter consequences of suffering, of one form or another.

[112:17]

And I'm struggling to know how As someone who's vowed to bring about the ending of suffering, how I can be with that? Because I feel myself suffering over what seems to be a lot of manipulation going on. That's your story, right? You're telling me, yeah. So I have another story which is that that's your story and if you grasp that story then that grasping of that story which you have in your consciousness, that will obscure karmic cause. And if you can't see karmic cause and effect, then you're not going to see the Dharma. And if you can't see the Dharma, it's going to be hard for you to liberate people from suffering. sort of feels like that's inviting me there's an invitation there to allow some immediate suffering allow immediate suffering in your karmic consciousness you do have suffering in your karmic consciousness and if you don't allow it you're not going to be able to liberate it

[113:52]

Other people suffering in your karmic consciousness is your suffering, right? You feel suffering when you see other people suffering in your karmic consciousness. Yeah. If you don't allow it, then you're not going to be able to liberate it. Love the world of suffering before you can liberate it. Not like it. Love it. You have to become intimate with all this suffering that's appearing in your consciousness. You have to become intimate with it. If you want to liberate all that suffering, you have to become intimate with all It's tough. It's very tough. That's right. I said that earlier and now you're saying it. It's tough to become intimate with karmic consciousness because karmic consciousness is almost always stressful. ...dash on the verge of blowing up.

[115:05]

But we have to love that. But love does not mean like or dislike. Love means don't give weight to the story of suffering. Don't give weight to it. Isn't there enough suffering now? Don't you have enough? Yeah. You don't have to give more weight to it. Just there it is. But don't take it lightly. I don't think you're taking it lightly, right? No. But you might be giving weight to it. So we have to have this balance thing of not leaning into the suffering, and not leaning away. So I don't think you're leaning away from this karmic consciousness of suffering, but you might be leaning into it. I don't know. If you want to liberate this world of suffering, we have to be upright with it, and it's tough to be upright. I'm not saying I can do it. That's what I'm saying. We hire these people to attack us to see if we can be upright. So I have this room full of people, you know.

[116:08]

You all are testing me. to see if I can like not lean away from you or into you as you appear and test me. And all these, the whole world's and the whole world's asking you to liberate it. Everybody's running up to me, slapping me in the face and saying, liberate me. Or everybody's running up to me and saying, I love you, you're great, and liberate me. That's what we're really But it's hard when you get slapped with a vision of misery. It's hard to be upright. It's hard to not give weight to it. Or to say, oh, that's nothing. Some people do that. They say, oh, that's nothing. Your suffering, that's nothing compared to mine. You don't know what suffering is. People do that. They discredit it. They say, that's your fault, or whatever. People lean away and into. And then not only that, we have these things coming at us, but we get spun around by it.

[117:10]

So we get dizzy. It's a tough place to practice, but this is where we have to practice. And it's really a great place because this is where you help people. That's your story, all right. Thank you. Thank you for... Whenever you notice that's your story, I'm grateful to you. Please tell me that. I don't want to tell you that. It's much better if you tell me. Don't you think? Maybe one more since it's almost time for lunch. Yes. I want to go back to this intimacy. Please do. Intimacy is something like either saying no, yes, which means being silent.

[118:26]

It's not so much not saying no or not saying yes. It's like not grasping no or grasping yes. Just being silent? Basically, basically, It's basically being silent, and then from silence you can hear. And you can listen. And then sometimes you hear something really nice like, I love you, Al. And then you can relax and say goodbye. So, yeah, we're... That's our basic thing. And then sometimes in silence we hear the Dharma. and in stillness we see the Dharma. So we go in the Zendo and we sit and we look and we see the Dharma when we learn how to really contemplate in stillness and silence. When we hear the Dharma and see the Dharma, we sometimes cry out in joy and we say, thank you everybody for being my good friend.

[119:31]

But that cry of joy comes from silence. where we hear the Dharma. The Dharma is not talking. But then sometimes after we hear it we say, I have something to tell you guys. Okay. Thank you very much. May our intention equally extend to every being and place where the true merit follow Buddha's way.

[120:16]

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