I have been suggesting that that Buddha realizes karmic cause and effect sees karmic cause and effect, but sees it in a realisational way, not like Buddha's over here looking over there and seeing karmic cause and effect, but Buddha realises karmic cause and effect. And in realising karmic cause and effect, there is liberation from karmic cause and effect. Buddha is the enlightened realization of karmic cause and effect and also Buddha manifests as liberation from karmic cause and effect.

[01:18]

So the understanding of karmic cause and effect is the same as freedom from it. Freedom from it is understanding it So there's one place, there's a text written by the ancient teacher Dogen, which is called Only a Buddha and a Buddha. And in that text, he quotes the expression, Buddha's manifest a body and liberate all beings. But another translation of that is, Buddhas manifest a body and awaken all beings. So awakening and liberation are kind of the same thing.

[02:22]

Two different sides of the same thing. And Buddhas are, Buddhas have these two sides. Buddhas are awakening and liberating. But Dogen Zenji's comment on that phrase is, manifest a body and liberate or awaken all beings means manifest a body is manifesting a body is awakening beings. That's what the Buddha's body manifesting is. It is the awakening of beings. It is the liberation of beings. The Buddha is not something over there that's going to awaken us or liberate us. Buddha is when we are liberated, when we are awakened. And what are they awakened about or liberated about?

[03:30]

Karmic cause and effect. Karmic cause and effect is where the appearance of various forms of bondage and suffering occur. Karmic cause and effect is the arena in which the appearance of cruelty and violence appear. And when we are in karmic cause and effect and we see violence and cruelty, of course that's a little bit or extremely painful. And we may feel we really want the end of this violence and the end of this cruelty. And Buddha wants that too. So in response to that desire, Buddha appears, Buddha manifests in the process of awakening everybody to that situation so that there can be an end to this cruelty and violence and fear where the cruelty and violence is functioning.

[04:55]

And Baijong says that the highly cultivated person does not obscure this process that the Buddhas are awakened to. And I'm saying to you over and over that the picture we have of this cruelty and the picture and the story we have of this violence and unhappiness, that picture if we grasp it, that obscures realization of freedom and realization of awakening. So the very thing we're wishing to liberate beings from, if we do not grasp it, we can enter into the realization of freedom from it. if we do grasp it, it hinders or obstructs or obscures liberating vision.

[06:12]

So then there's a practice is, you know, how to deal with these stories in such a way that we pass through them to see reality and thus how we pass through this realm of bondage by, you know, and are now obscured by these stories. Sarah? Someone said it obscures liberating vision. Is that, I mean, it obscures the appropriate response? What does that mean? Oh, yeah, thank you. So when people see these horrific appearances, they feel that they should do something in relationship to them that would liberate beings from them. And so the difficult message is, well now, I know that the first part isn't so difficult. Whenever you see any kind of story, a happy story or unhappy story, you do respond.

[07:28]

You always respond. And your response has consequence. However, if you grasp the appearance that you're responding to, your response is not the response that you really want. It's not the response that's optimally conducive to liberation from this thing that you're responding to. But before you pass through this story and no longer abide in it, you will be responding. And I'm proposing that your response will be less than optimally liberating. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to tell you that if it's uncomfortable to hear. However, that's the situation is that before we are Buddhas, before we are Buddhas, we are just like Buddhas before they were Buddhas.

[08:32]

They too were a little off before they were on, and their function was a little hindered before they actually saw clearly karmic cause and effect. Before perfect wisdom arose, their efforts to benefit beings were somewhat hindered by this somewhat obscured vision. Once we have cleared vision, then we respond too. And then the response is unhindered because the vision is unhindered. then the work is optimally in line with our vow to liberate beings. Then the vision is the same as liberating. However, the liberation process goes according to the laws of the beings liberated, and they have to also work with their vision.

[09:39]

Now we're doing the best, once we have this vision, we're doing the best thing to help them have the vision. But they have to train with how they're responding to the stories that they're troubled by until they have the correct vision and then they also join optimally the process. But when we feel like we have to do something that's in accord with reality, we do have to do something. Karmic beings have to be karmic beings. Active beings have to be active, and they are. Nobody's not active. No sentient being is inactive. All day long sentient beings are doing things which have consequence. And so we say, let's try to do good things. And so we do good things until we do not grasp the story of good things. Doing good things, the thing that's good about them is that they promote us not grasping doing good things.

[10:43]

and doing unskillful things, the bad thing about them is they do not help us very much not grasp doing unskillful things or skillful things. Does that make sense? So doing good, the main thing that's good about doing good is it promotes us eventually not grasping doing good. So then we do good after that, but without grasping it. Or rather, doing good just naturally emerges from our vision. it's not any longer something we're abiding in. When you do good and don't abide in it, doing good flourishes into more non-abiding good. If you do good and you abide in it, it hinders the flourishing of good. And if you do unskillful things and abide in them, of course they flourish. And if you do unskillful things and don't abide in them, they perish. They wither.

[11:46]

So now we have a lot of questions, but I just want to say before we get into the questions that I've introduced the situation and what is remaining is basically how do you relate to the story in such a way as to not grasp it. That's the basic practice training is to learn how to relate to these terrible stories humbly so that we realize we have to practice with them. Now I have a bunch of questions before we get into the practice with the story. So, John and Andrew. In this context, does grasping mean to self-inflate Self-inflation would be, it goes with grasping, uh-huh, like it's my story and, you know, and that's really true.

[12:48]

Or it's not my story and that's really true. I mean, I really think it's true. And I don't think that's a joke. I'm not just kidding when I say that when I say something, whatever I say is true and anybody who disagrees with me, I'm sorry to say, is wrong. people talk like that, and if they believe, if that's not like a stand-up comedian demonstrating a foolish person for fun, then there's stress and fear, etc. But you can say it. I'm not inflated, or I am inflated, but it's appropriate in my case. You can talk like that without abiding in it. The Buddha can say, well, usually I don't talk about being Buddha, but if you ask me, I have to admit I am, and here's the reasons why.

[13:52]

Buddha can talk like that without abiding in that. In other words, liberation can say anything without abiding in it. And what is said comes from the understanding of how we're all working together in liberation. Andrew? Well, being paralyzed would be also good to feel like a fool when you're paralyzed. So, the vision, here's the vision, now I'm responding and now I see I'm foolish. So the visions There it is. And if I grasp it, I'm going to be foolish. Now what if I don't grasp it? Could I be foolish then too? Maybe so. But the first one, if I don't grasp it, my response of being foolish is liberating.

[14:58]

Practice secretly like a fool, like an idiot. It's fine to be a fool as long as your foolishness comes from not grasping the story you're responding to. And then if you're paralyzed, that's another thing to not grasp. And then again, if you're not grasping, that's liberating. So story, fool, paralyzing, all that stuff, each one is an opportunity for liberation. to understand cause and effect. But maybe you have a particular little thing of fool paralysis kind of thing there. Like, you know, I'm not supposed to be... Being a fool is not really that good. I'm going to hold still for a little while here. Rather than being... Finally, I'm a fool. I've been scared to be a fool for all these years and now finally... Now that I'm over, are you over 60?

[16:02]

Yeah. Now that I'm over 60, I can be a fool all day long. I'm entitled. And I'm free and I'm relaxed about being a fool. Andrew the Fool. In Japan, when they do it for men but not for women, this is, you know, we got a problem here. This is a sad story, which I don't want to cling to. But here's the story. When men get to be 60, they can be like the little boy, foolish little boys again. But they don't say the women when they're 60 can be foolish little girls. I wish that the old ladies, the well-educated old ladies in Japan could also be foolish little girls when they're 60. See, that's the opposite. Saying that I'm over 60, how come I'm still a fool? No, you will continue. Although you didn't wait till you were 60. Now, now everybody's going to let you be a fool.

[17:08]

Before that, you know, maybe they weren't, you know, maybe they kind of were like you. You were a fool, but you didn't let yourself. And they also didn't let you. Now they're going to let you, so you should let yourself be a fool. Living, having karmic consciousness is kind of foolish. We are being fooled. Karmic consciousness, we are fooled. If you're not fooled by karmic consciousness, you don't have karmic consciousness. If it doesn't trick you, you've got some other kind of consciousness and you're not a sentient being. I don't know what you are. Bodhisattvas are sentient beings. Bodhisattvas are fooled by their karmic consciousness. It comes up. It looks real. And they don't even see, like I told you, sentient beings don't even see that this appearance has a little subliminal message. This is actually real. This is true. This is not an illusion.

[18:10]

That's what it says under all the pictures, under all the stories. This is a true story. This is based on a true story, etc. But it doesn't say that. If it says that, you could say, well, that's just a label. If you took the label, what would it be? We don't see it. Okay, so we are being fooled by our consciousness. I'm a good guy. I'm a bad guy. I'm a good Zen student. I'm a below average Zen student. These are stories and they all look true. I don't have any like, you know, once in a while an untrue, something appears that's a little bit like, somebody told me, what was it? Something happened. something unusual, and they felt very disoriented. So once in a while if something unusual happens that doesn't look as real as the other stuff, and that's, you know, we see how much trouble, that's, you know, in karmic consciousness there's almost never anything appearing that doesn't look real.

[19:10]

And when it does, we feel like, whoa! In other words, we think we're looking at reality all day long. And when something unreal happens, we go, whoa! Sometimes the system slips and doesn't fool us. And then we feel really disoriented. When we're not a fool, it's like, whoa! And when we are a fool, we feel, something's wrong with me. Which again, we're being fooled. There's nothing wrong with being a fool. It's normal to be a fool. Sentient beings have foolish consciousness. Karmic consciousness is foolish consciousness, but it's a powerful foolish consciousness. It's extremely entertaining, and we're addicted to it, which is another foolish thing to be addicted to, isn't it? So now please feel supported to be a fool from now on. Relax and be foolish.

[20:11]

And in that relaxed place, study this foolishness thoroughly and then we'll be free. But it's not easy to study foolishness because we're so foolish, you know. Yes? I have a question about the cruelty, violence, and grasping. OK. I keep trying to particularize these stories. So I go to Middle East, Iraq, and Syria. And I suppose there's a bill coming up at Congress. And I feel very strongly. um about the issue and once i feel very strongly about one side of the issue yes is there a bill coming up in congress and i you know gather and organize and all that sort of stuff is that grasping uh well i i don't see so far that it's grasping i'm sorry i don't see what from the story you told me that's grasping um but if but if you if you like think the people who disagree with you are

[21:16]

not as enlightened as you? If you think that the people who won't let you vote for that are hindering you? I'm willing to give other people their druthers. If this is what you believe, believe it. But this is what I believe and I'm going to act on it. That's not necessarily grasping, But that's one of the advantages of doing things repetitively, is that if there is grasping, you start to get really tired. So that's another way you can kind of spot that you might be grasping, that you're getting really tired by doing this over and over. Like I sometimes use the example of You know, when I was younger, I used to... A lot of people used to come to Doksan to see me.

[22:19]

Like during some session, sometimes there would be like 90 people and they would all sign up for Doksan. And sometimes some people would sign up two or three times. And I noticed that if I would think about when I was talking to somebody, if I was thinking about the other people coming, I would get very stressed and tired. So I stopped doing that and just thought about the person I was talking to and didn't think about the next person. But even if you're talking to one person and you've got two people to see, And you're thinking about the next person when you're talking to one person. You get tired there too, but only one dose of tired. But if you're seeing 90 people, and each time you see somebody you think of the rest of the other people, then 90 times you gouge your energy and you start to feel, oh, stress. And then fear that you won't be able to see them or, you know, that you won't be able to do a good job with the next one and so on. And you just,

[23:21]

So like when you're voting for something that you think would be good, when you vote, are you voting and a little bit thinking about the result of your vote? That's maybe a sign of abiding, that you're trying to get something from it. So you wish to do something helpful, and then while you're doing it, if you get into the help while you're doing it, in a sense right then, you're abiding in it. You actually feel distracted from it, but that's what it's like to abide in things, is that you're with them and distracted. So you can start to notice maybe tensions around your actions that would indicate that you're not relaxed about it, like Andrew's example of when you start to feel foolish or, in other words, self-righteous.

[24:25]

If there's any self-righteousness, you might not notice the self-righteousness until you notice some heat accumulating in your face. Your cheeks are getting warm. I wonder why my cheeks are getting warm. Maybe I am abiding in this. So things will happen to you if you're abiding in it, but it's also possible to just press the button with your whole heart and it's no stress, you're completely relaxed about it, you're not abiding in it, and you don't grasp it as reality. So abiding in and grasping it would be, it must have this result. Yeah, that would be an example. Instead of being in the now, I'm doing everything I possibly can. Well, no, in the now I'm doing something and I'm experimenting. I think this might be helpful. I don't know. It must have this result is more like I'm actually in control of cause and effect.

[25:28]

I've heard that even Buddhas aren't in control of cause and effect, but I am. In other words, I'm God. People have the idea of God being in control because people think that way. This God thing, it's a childish idea of God being in control. Children think that. Nobody teaches them that they're in control of their parents and the universe and their grandparents especially. You know, my daughter didn't teach my leader, you are his master. She figured, you know, I taught her that. No, I didn't teach her that. I just go along with that natural thing that she's in charge of me. And yesterday she had these metal toys that she was playing with that her brother used to play with and she took one of them and smashed me on the head with it. And I went, oh. I said, well, that hurt. And she went, you know, she didn't want me to tell her that it hurt.

[26:33]

When I told her, I didn't say, bad girl. I didn't say, don't do that. I said, oh, that hurt. And then her response, I cannot say that was not good. That's way too much. But just the sound of the thing hitting my head was not enough for, that kind of was fun. To not only have this action, but get a nice sound out of the head. Later, when she was jumping on me in the trampoline, she put her hand on my head and she said, your head's bumpy. I said, okay, it's bumpy. Okay. So here she is smacking me on the head, and I was having a very nice time with her a few weeks ago, and she just suddenly slapped me really hard in the face. We're just playing around, just went whack, and watched.

[27:38]

And I went, whoa. I said, that's too hard. She went. She does not like any kind of feedback that that was not cool. It's fun for the other person. I didn't say bad girl. I said that was too hard. And if she hits me again, you know, her brother used to do that too. If she hits me again and again, I'd say, would you like me to do that to you? That's what I used to do with him. He'd say, no, no. They know. I mean, if you ask, they don't know when they're hitting you that they don't want you to do it to them. But if you ask them, they realize that they would not like that. Can we talk with somebody like that? I don't know if that's helpful. I want her to grow up to be a great woman. and a great mother and father and sister and brother and all that. I want her to be the best, but I don't know what I'm doing is the best thing.

[28:43]

I don't know what the result would be. That's what I want. This is my contribution. I'm making contributions every moment. That's the deal. So I'm just trying to watch it, trying to study it. But if I do say, this is going to have this action, Well, then it's just another example of foolishness. It's not a reality. It's just like, what a funny thought that what I did I know is going to be helpful to you. That's just kind of funny. Like if I thought what I just said to you is going to really clarify your understanding. It did, yeah. But if I thought so, then I would have shown myself and you an example of what we're talking about of clinging to my action. But I don't think that. I just give it a try over and over. And when other people point out to me that I'm clinging, I really try to listen to that.

[29:48]

So please, you know, if you seem like you're welcome to tell me if you think I'm clinging to my offering. Okay, now I'm going to say the names to remind me, okay? Paula, Maggie, and Aubrey. Any others? Okay. And? Oh, you're younger, but you're under 60. Yes? I have that story. So relating to non-clinging, when we all leave Green Gulch and are intensive, we're in a larger story of a place that wants results when we act. Yes, and they'll get them. And it's not necessarily a bad thing, but we're all doing things because we come together and people have expectations. And, you know, I'm a teacher, so simply when someone comes to my class, they expect to learn something.

[30:58]

And I have to shape the students in the direction of they're there for, even though there's a lot of variables that go into that. Yeah, I have a different story from yours. Can you just speak to that a little bit? Yeah. You said, I have to shape the student in the direction they want to go. So I have a situation like that, too, where people come and I actually ask them, what shape do you want to become? So then they say, okay. I vow to embrace and sustain forms and ceremonies. I vow to embrace and sustain all wholesome activities. I vow to embrace and sustain all beings. They say that that's what they want. That's the shape they want to be. They tell me that. And I say, really? And they say, yes. I say, really? And they say, yes. So that's what they want. I do not think that I can shape them into that. I contribute to it by asking them what shape they want to be in.

[32:01]

And they tell me the shape. If they think I'm going to shape them into that, then again they're projecting this grandiose God-like thing onto me. I cannot shape people into, I contribute to the shaping, they contribute to the shaping, and this particular shape that they want, if they want that shape, then the best, then I think that generally speaking, The way to contribute to them arriving at that shape is for nobody to take too much credit for the shaping. And if they're telling me that I'm going to do the shaping, I would tell them, well, I'm here to support the shaping that you want. If you want to become that kind of a person, I totally want to help you do that. But I cannot shape you into that. Otherwise, I would just do it right now. But I can't. But I can continually contribute to that shaping process which you want.

[33:02]

And if I see you doing something, I can ask you, is that in accord with the shape you want to be? And then you can say, who asked you? And I say, oh, okay. And they say, yes, it is. It is. And I say, how? I'm not trying to force you into that. I want you to arrive at this shape. I agree it's a good shape. A skillful living being heading towards liberation. I think it's a great shape. But I'm not shaping you. And if you tell me that that's what I'm doing, I will probably say, wait a minute. I just want to say I'm not agreeing to play that role that I'm the shaper. I'm part of the process. And I totally want to be. So even to use language that encourages that among the group of people that are there would be helpful. Yeah, it'll make you a rather unpopular teacher.

[34:06]

They'll go to some other teacher and say, well, I'll shape you. So only a couple of people will stay. But we have this example of Avalokiteshvara who's not interested in a lot of disciples, even though she might have a lot. She wants people who really are going to not make her grandiose. Who are not going to say that she's going to make them into a Zen master or whatever. That she's going to make them into little Avalokiteshvara's. I've mentioned before, you know, when I first was in the position of like being an abbot and even before, I thought that the best student would be a little version of me. So I tried to get everybody to be the type of practitioner I was. And people actually, they kind of went along with it for a little while. But then they started to try to wiggle away from that. They really did not want to be me, even though they maybe thought that was a nice idea.

[35:10]

So I switched at a certain point to rather than getting them to be the way I wanted them to be, which was kind of like me, I helped them be what they wanted to be. And that's been going really well since then, although that's hard too. But that will be successful. Making moment by moment decisions. Yes, yes, that seem to be in accord. You got the basic idea and you're trying, you know, this is your story and you're trying to make a contribution to that and you realize that if the story is towards being a bodhisattva, then the contribution should be one that you do in a relaxed, gentle, unself-righteous way. This is what I think would be conducive to the way you want to go. I'm not in control of you. You are too powerful to be in control of. The whole universe is making you, and I'm just joining that process, trying to highlight and remind everybody about what we want in life.

[36:19]

And if you veer off, I can say, if you veer off in the path you wish to walk, I'm not going to abandon you. I'm going to just say, oh, what do you want to do again? Because I don't expect you to stay. If I expected everybody to stay on these precept tracks after they say, I vow to do them from this life until after realizing Buddhahood, if I would grasp that, then when they veer off, I might get disappointed. But I don't get disappointed much at all. I more like think, oh, here's an opportunity for me to assist this person in remembering what they want to be. Rather than, well, they're not doing what they said they would do, I'm done with them. Because I don't expect that they will. I don't expect that. If I expect it, that's my problem. That's not my practice. Expecting is another thing for me to be kind to. Poor little expector.

[37:22]

We have Inspector Clouseau and Expector Reb. Poor little Rebby. He's expecting people to be good bodhisattvas. That's like a baby teacher. Baby teachers expect the students to learn what they're teaching. It's a baby teacher. Grown-up teachers don't expect people to learn what they're teaching. They want people to learn and they watch them grow. And they do grow. Yes? Relating to last class when you talked about going down and up, I'm thinking that actually originally we are down, we are on the ground floor. All the time we're down. Is it just because of our perception or thinking that suddenly brought us high up to the top floor?

[38:27]

Is it just because of our perception and thinking that we're up to the top? It's because of holding to our perceptions and thinkings. So the perception and thinking arise from the realm? The perception and thinking are operating down there in the deep level. But down there all the perceptions are empty, ungraspable, interdependent. That's the ground level of reality. The perceptions are there too, bouncing around, helping each other. But if there's any clinging to the perceptions, then we're up at the top. So the Buddha says, everybody's got Buddha's wisdom and compassion, how wonderful. But because of false conceptions and grasping, they don't realize it. But a false conception is fine as long as you know that it's not something to grasp. And a correct perception, of course, shouldn't be grasped either. All the more we don't grasp correct perceptions.

[39:29]

Okay, but once we're not there, we are on the top. Yeah, once we're on the top, yes? We need to get down. And here we have certain training how to get down. Yeah. And sometimes it takes time and take training. But Sometimes we are getting down too slow or slowly compared with our reaction already. So our reaction could be too fast, then the speed that we travel down from 39th floor to... Is that what...? I almost understand what you're saying. You said something about we're going down, we're training, and then our reaction is too soon. At a certain occasion we have to or naturally we respond already. Yes. But before we go down. Before we get to the bottom, then our response is less than what we want it to be.

[40:33]

And then we have confession and repentance. As we're going down, as we're going down to the deep wisdom, we say, oh. I was clinging, I'm sorry. Or I got distracted, I'm sorry. Or that was, I thought the superficial was the profound, I'm sorry. I forgot the teaching, I'm sorry. I was impatient, I'm sorry. That's how we go down. And sometimes we're not impatient and we say, yay! So the right way to check our practice would be, I would imagine it every time, but before we react and check whether we are on the top floor or on the ground floor. First idea, maybe not the first day, but gradually we check. And if we are on the ground floor, then we can safely react from there to another being. Yeah, and then there's, and Avalokiteshvara teaches you what the ground floor is like.

[41:33]

No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body. That's the ground floor. But that doesn't mean they're not there, it just means you can't find anything. It just means there's no basis for grasping anything. And react from there. And then you react from there, right. Then there's response, and then the responses can be elaborated and elaborated, but they're all coming with the understanding that all these forms are emptiness, because you're expressing emptiness. This is about going down. And then there's another part of going up. It's very similar to when we leave here. Now we go to our job, our society, and we don't have the skill of how to integrate yet, but we have to react. Well, not having the skill of how to integrate yet, yeah. Even we are down for a while.

[42:35]

Well, you can say you don't have the skill, but you can also say you just haven't yet finished integration. But you may be actually integrating. If you got to the bottom, then you are integrating, but the integration is the post-deep realization. After deep realization, the integration process goes on, but it doesn't mean you're not integrating, just because it's not going to be over, the integration process is just going to continue until everybody joins this process. And you have confidence at that point. And you're doing the same practices after as before. You just said after you realized the practices you were doing before cannot be grasped and before you thought they could be grasped. So you do them with, sometimes people say effortless, but it's more like there's no additional effort.

[43:40]

You do generosity and you do patience and you do generosity, but there's no, that's it. There's no additional effort in doing them. You're not doing them for anything. Nobody's doing it. They can't be grasped. The activity is there with no additional effort. It's effortless. But still, even so, the integration goes on. And people keep giving you new opportunities at work and so on by telling you, you know, that you're a lazy bum. You know lazy bum? Yeah. I hear that all the time. And then, can I really say thank you? And if I can, I feel happy that I can be a lazy bum. I mean, people can call me that or I can think that and then not grasp it and then wait for the next attack. So on the integration part, I am a little bit confused on how and when or should I react.

[44:48]

Ideally, I was talking about the speed of reaction and the speed of coming down. But there are many times that we know that we are not done yet, but we have to react. Now there is a... I can watch myself that I'm reacting not from the wrong, but yet I cannot stop myself. The things is moving. There's no time for me to calm down and then I... You cannot stop yourself, and if you stopped yourself, that wouldn't be stopping yourself. That would be another thing you would be doing. So what you just told is, you just told a story. Just now. I heard a story anyway. Did you hear the story that you just told? It's a story about going down, about working through your karmic consciousness, And part of working through karmic consciousness for some people would be to try to figure out how to work through karmic consciousness.

[45:55]

How can I get through it? What should I do? But how can I get through it is another example of karmic consciousness. So it's not like, how can I get through it and then I try to figure out how to get through it. It's more like, oh, that's another thing not to believe. And then if you say you can't get through it, that's another thing not to believe. Or you will get through it. That's another thing not to believe. Or you shouldn't be thinking like this. Or you're thinking just right. Finally you're thinking perfectly. That's a really dangerous one. Because now I probably could grasp that. Now that I'm thinking perfectly, I probably, that would be appropriate to grasp that because that's perfect. Well, that's when you need a teacher. And the teacher says, oh, you're finally going the perfect way. Wow, congratulations. I have a little medal here for you. Let me pin this on you.

[46:58]

That's for you to realize, yeah. So when I pin medals on you, you know what's going on. This is the medal of honor, the Zen medal of honor. But you haven't got it yet, don't worry. Aubrey? You were talking earlier, the example of voting and not thinking of the future as you are. Yeah, or the past. And because you think it might, I want this to be helpful. I think it might be helpful. I'm going to try it. When before voting, I imagine I would maybe research the two sides or multiple choices.

[48:09]

Yeah. I would use my imagination to think, like, oh, this is what might happen if I chose this, or if this went through, this might happen with this, and this is how I make many decisions in my life. And in that process of using my imagination, I see a lot of problems, and I expect to get... Overheated. Well, one thing that came to my mind just when you're talking about it is something that, one thing that came to mind is something that has been coming up a lot recently. And that is, one way to put it is, when there's a choice, there's conflict.

[49:10]

So when you look at these, when you're presented with a chance to vote and you start doing research, if you're thinking that there's a choice, or even I might also say if you think there's alternatives to your situation, that makes the research more stressful. I'm not saying you shouldn't think that way, but just watch that when you think there's choice, notice the stress and conflict that comes up in your mind. I don't want to avoid picking and choosing, but if you do, things are easy. So, but that doesn't mean you never have picking and choosing going up. It just means that you remember that picking and choosing is somewhat stressful and makes things difficult. So when you're studying, it might be good if there's like also a kind of choicelessness in the study.

[50:18]

So you're studying choices, but there's kind of like the way you study it, there's no alternative. You're not trying to get escape from the situation. So that you're always trying to study karmic cause and effect no matter what situation you're looking at. So that unifies your mind even though you're looking at choices. If you look at choices unaided by realizing that this is a good opportunity for realizing the truth, then you're just like caught you're going to be just caught in the choice and then you're going to be stressed. So then you're making a decision in a kind of stressful way and it tires you and, you know, you're trying to help so then you vote but you get tired and then that's how you get burnout. You don't want to continue that way of being forever. You wouldn't want to spend the rest of your life voting and researching and voting and researching and trying to figure out all the time what's the best way.

[51:26]

You just give up and say, I can't do this anymore. I'm killing myself. But if while you're doing it, you realize this is an opportunity to realize the profound truth here, which this story, if I apprehend it, hinders, or turn it the other way, I can realize the liberating truth right while I'm studying this story before I vote. The truth that helps people can be realized before I make my vote, before I finish my research. I can be realized right now. And there's no alternative about that. There's no choice there. And then I can spend some time in the realm of choice and maybe feel the conflict and then practice the choicelessness with the feeling of conflict. I don't want to avoid the feeling of conflict.

[52:30]

Because I need to study that too and realize the foolishness at that moment too. So whether I make the right decision or the wrong decision, I'm a fool. So always be a fool while you're doing this highly developed intellectual exercise. So there's no alternative to that. then you can be relaxed and you don't have to give up trying to help people. But if you're trying to help people and you do it in this way of figuring out stuff without remembering that a fool is doing this operation, you're going to get burnout at what you want to do, at how you want to help. So was that clear? Yeah, kind of clear. So when we're trying to help people, we have to do it in a way that's, what do you call it, sustainable. And the way you make it sustainable is to remember, for example, that a fool is doing this work.

[53:35]

And always a fool is doing this work. Bodhisattva's Manjushri, you know, the Bodhisattva of great perfect wisdom, Manjushri says, I'm a fool. I'm also the Bodhisattva of perfect wisdom, yes. But I'm, you know, in a sense, I'm the greatest fool. I've trained myself to really accept that. So since I'm a fool, then I'm not going to believe what I think. And I'll tell that story, you know. One time I thought something about somebody, and I just really had to tell myself, I do not believe what I think of you. I do not believe what I think of you. If we believe what we think of people, that could be more or less harmful. Sometimes it's not that bad. Like you think, oh, this person's so nice. If you grasp that, it doesn't seem so bad. But again, if you grasp that over and over and over, it'll kill you.

[54:41]

Or you'll feel like it's going to kill you. And of course, not to mention, this was not a good person to grasp that over and over, and now you'll realize that's going to kill you. We should not believe what we think. That's giving too much weight. And we shouldn't take it lightly, because what we think is important. Because if you don't handle what you think skillfully, you can burn yourself out on your path of trying to help people. Window, yes. Could you open some windows, Andrew? Was there somebody pointing to somebody? Oh, yes, thank you. Andrew, young Andrew. Yeah, I notice when dreaming, there appears to be a body and consciousness and objects

[55:44]

And I'm new to this form of practice. I'm wondering, does Dogen or anyone have a teaching about dream practice? Yeah. All of our... What do you mean? A practice while you're dreaming in your so-called sleep? Yeah. Dogen did write a fascicle called A Dream Within a Dream, I believe. And his great-grandson Kazan wrote a lot about dreams. He was really into working with his dreams. He remembered his dreams and worked with them. They're a big part of his teaching practice. I think basically dreams are, sometimes people call dreams paradoxical consciousness, but dreams are consciousness, are karmic consciousness. And what you do in your dreams has consequence.

[56:53]

So if you think of doing something, if you try to help somebody in your dream, that has one kind of consequence. If you try to hurt somebody in your dream, it has no consequence. So there is a self there. since there's somebody there, I'm here, I'm doing this, so it is a kind of consciousness, and it's a wonderful thing to be in your dream and say, oh, I'm in a dream, and yeah, and this is a dream. And now I'm dreaming that I'm getting up for satsang, but I'm actually lying in bed thinking that I'm going to get up for satsang. This is wonderful. And I probably won't be able to do this much longer without waking up. And now I'm awake. And I was right. I was in bed. But you can also have a dream like that when you're sitting in a zendo. You can think, I'm dreaming that I'm in a zendo, but actually this is a dream of being in a zendo. I'm going to wake up pretty soon and find myself in a zendo. And we used to find ourselves with a stick on our shoulder at that time.

[57:59]

One time I was, sometimes in the old days when we used to use the stick more, sometimes people would put the stick on your shoulder and you'd think, I wasn't asleep. The person who put the stick on the shoulder thought you were. They'd put the stick, I wasn't asleep. But one time, there was a bird on my shoulder, and I thought, oh, yeah, a bird, I'm in the Zen room with a bird on my shoulder, I'm probably asleep. And this is probably the stick. And sure enough, it was. And I didn't argue. Thank you very much. Judith and Brandon? Yes. Thinking about the comment you made earlier about the U.S.-Japanese movement over 60 Say again? The comment you made about Japanese women over 16 being able to also act as fools.

[59:07]

And so I have two questions about that. One is, is that believing in something that you think? I mean, and how would you respond to that in a way that isn't obscuring? Well, it was a thought. And it kind of went along with this thing that these appearances I've seen of Japanese women, they look real. And I wish these beings, whether they're real or not, well, and I'd like them to be treated equally to the other beings which I have seen, these older men. In both cases, they appear to me. Do I think they're real or do I remember that these are my mind? So even in my mind I still can feel like, oh, here's an appearance of a woman, and I also in my mind wish her well.

[60:11]

Do I think that I'm dealing with reality here? If I do, I say, I'm sorry, I did. Because I don't think the way you're appearing is the way you are. And I don't think that you not being allowed to be a fool is really, in reality, it just appears to me, it's just a story I've heard. And an old man acting like a fool and being allowed to do it, that means when I have the appearance of that in my mind. So if I remember the teaching while I watch these appearances of old men being allowed to be foolish, I can relate to it in a way that I want to. Maybe I can understand cause and effect right while I'm watching an example of the appearance of a picture that looks like not a picture. I can watch consciousness manifesting as an appearance, as an object that looks like not consciousness.

[61:19]

So I told that story, and you're asking me that, so then I would say, well, actually, when I told you that story, my job was to remember that I was just expressing consciousness to you, and now you're asking me about this, and I think maybe you'd like me to show you how to deal with that story without getting caught by it. And the reason why I think these things, you could say, well, the reason why I thought that was because he was talking to Andrew before, and Andrew said he was a fool. And when Andrew says he's a fool, he thought of these Japanese men who are allowed to be foolish. So that led to him thinking, well, how about the women, and so on, because there's women in association with men, and he wants them to have equal rights to be fools. But that's just a story. I don't know why I thought that, but that was just my thinking I was telling you about. which I want to warmly listen to my thinking and not be caught by it.

[62:23]

And if you think I'm caught by it, my thinking is I want to welcome you to accuse me of being caught by my thinking, if you think so. And even if you don't think so, you can do it just to sort of randomly check. He looks like he's not caught by his thinking, but I think I'm just going to check. Anyway, I'm not going to wait until he looks like he's caught before I check. I'm going to check pretty much all the time whenever I get a chance. So let's say you weren't caught by your thinking. Let's say that. And that would be another example of another story. You said earlier that you would give us some teaching on how to respond when we see suffering, when we see inequality, in a way that doesn't appear .

[63:32]

Well, so I'm saying that when I see inequality, what I'm seeing, what I'm seeing when I see it, I'm seeing karmic consciousness. I'm not saying there's no inequality, I'm just saying that the way I see it is the way my karmic consciousness is manifesting. Now how do I relate to my karmic consciousness in a way that will promote equality? Equality understood as justice. So I relate to that image of injustice. I relate to my karmic consciousness with justice. I practice justice towards the appearance of injustice. So, for example, part of justice is not to praise myself at the expense of others. So if I see somebody, if I see in my mind somebody who seems to be acting unjustly,

[64:41]

I want to relate justly to this appearance of injustice by not saying, I'm better than this one. Somebody smashes me on the head, I want to relate to that with justice. In other words, I don't think I'm better than this person who smashed me on the head, or who smashed somebody else on the head. I don't think I'm better than them. Or if I do think that, then I practice justice in the form of confessing, I thought I was better than you. Hey, hey, hey, guess what just happened? You did that and I thought I was better than you when you did that. And I'm so sorry that I thought I was better. And say, what are you talking about? Well, you know, when you did that to that person, I thought I was better than you. And I'm not. I'm not better than you. You might do something like that if you're practicing justice towards injustice. But a lot of people, as you know, when they see injustice, they actually think they're better than the unjust people. Right?

[65:44]

But that's not going to... If you practice injustice towards injustice, if you put yourself above the unjust... That doesn't clear the image of injustice and open you to the reality which will help you naturally act justly. It could be just one moment of justice in response to the appearance of injustice and the doors of the truth are empty or you hit the bottom. Just like that, you're at the bottom. And from the bottom, you can speak to this image. The image might still be there, or I should say the image temporarily might be no injustice. Then you come back and you look at the justice. Next time injustice appears, you're there, and now you naturally come back with a just response. and another one, and another one, and another one, until the person you're talking to starts to look at their picture.

[66:49]

They thought they were just, probably. Then you could transmit this practice of justice towards all images that appear in our mind and liberate all beings. But you looked like you didn't quite get it. No, I did quite get it. My question was, how do I know that what I think is maybe acting just? How do I know that what I did was justice? Did you say? Or not just another story that I... Yeah, how do I know? Well... If you knew, that would be somewhat like injustice. That would be kind of like praising yourself at the expense of others. Because others don't know. So how come you do? That's putting myself up too much, that I know what I do is just.

[67:50]

When the bodhisattva-buddha acts in a just way, that's sufficient. that they did. They don't have to then think that they did. That's extra. Like that. I often use that story. This is a story, I didn't observe this, but I heard about it. Before, you know, in the old days when Zen Center was over in Japantown They had this door into the zendo and Suzuki Roshi went into the zendo and a student came up behind him And Siddhartha stepped into the Zen door and stopped. This person was coming, walking towards, and he was kind of tailgating the Zen master. You understand that? He's real close and he was moving and the Zen master stopped, joined his palms and bowed.

[68:55]

Or he started to join his palms and bow. And this person rear-ended him. And then the Zen master went like this. In other words, he hit the guy in the chest or stomach with his elbow. And, you know, so you can say, well, you know, the guy rear-ended him and he said, don't rear-end me, you know, be more mindful. But I thought it was just like, you know, just the action of the body. you know I wasn't there but I thought well he might have just been bowing and you hit him and then he went forward and his elbows came up rather than stupid Zen student yeah yeah just but I don't know but a bodhisattva is sometimes compared to a scare deer you know what a scare deer is there's various types but one type is you have a um

[69:58]

a bamboo tube on a pivot like this. And as one end is open, the other end is closed. How does it work? Anyway, the water is running over the tube. And when the tube fills up, it tilts and pours the water out. When it's empty, the tube's like this. When the water runs into it, it fills up and fills up until the water comes up to the top and then goes off balance and tips this way and pours the water out. And when it goes back to its original position, it goes and scares the deer. Bodhisattva, huh? Yes. Yeah, scaring the deer. So the deer are walking around the tea garden or whatever, and the water's flowing.

[71:06]

Eating the tea garden. Eating the tea garden. And bodhisattva's activity is like that. You know? They just, like that. They don't think, oh, that was right. People make them into what they are and they go with what they are. And just like we all are being made by everybody into what we are, and we have a service to provide, but because of karmic consciousness, we tense up and we miss the time when it's time for us to empty out and go . So we don't need to know. We just need to actually accord with reality. And then what will we do? We will be scary to deers when they're in the tea garden. We will be generous.

[72:09]

We will not praise self at the expense of others. We will not slander. We will not take life. We will be patient. We will be calm. We'll be the way we really are because of this training. And we won't be spending much time, well, I'm the way I am, plus the way I am is just right. Probably won't do that very often. Be too busy going . OK. So I see Jay and Rita, and I don't know whose hand that, oh, that's your hand, Jim. Couldn't tell if it's connected, who is it connected to? So Jay, Rita, and Jim. We're studying karmic consciousness. Avalokiteshvara is practicing deeply the perfection of wisdom. She's studying karmic consciousness

[73:11]

deeply and realizing emptiness. And from realizing emptiness she talks to us. And when she talks to us, she's back in karmic consciousness because she has to use karmic consciousness to talk. Because that's where the words live. Shadiputra, I mean, Jai. If the injustice is being directed Yeah, that's the best. I wish all of it was coming towards me and not towards nobody else. And the thought that's arising or whatever is that the appropriate response would be to respond in a certain way, but that rational or patient response is being obscured by an emotional reaction? Or it could be an emotional reaction and that's the appropriate response. Like, I had an emotional reaction.

[74:15]

I'm not saying it was injustice, but I get smashed on the head with that airplane, and my emotional reaction is, ooh, that's an emotion. Ooh, Frankie, that was so hard. But I feel good about that, that response. But that's an emotion. But it wasn't coming from Yeah, it was pretty good. I'm happy with it. I wasn't on a big trip about it. Do you think that had to do with the dynamic of power, you could say? I guess I'm thinking of when the majority Yeah, well, is she a majority group or a minority group? I don't know what she is. But I want to teach everybody to be able to deal with what's coming to them in a way that they'll feel good about.

[75:17]

If I see somebody being treated in a way that appears to be unjust to me and that they handle it well, my job is done. if they handle it well. If they don't, I want to handle it well to teach both sides of the interaction justice. So I want to meet the appearance of injustice in a way that will transmit the practice of justice to everybody involved in that story. I wouldn't say there's not a difference, no. I can see a difference. And so actually in some cases it might be directed towards me and I might do really well and direct it towards somebody else and I might be unskillful.

[76:21]

Or I could be skillful in both cases or skillful in neither. But what I'm saying is that when I see, if somebody seems to be unjust towards me, I want to respond to that justly And if I'm in touch with reality, I will unavoidably, I will have no choice but to, I can't not respond justly when I'm living in reality. And I aspire to live in reality and then when the appearance of injustice appears, I will be happy to see a just response to the appearance of injustice. And that's how Avalokiteshvara goes, you know, and teaches perfect wisdom in a situation of injustice. That's all she does. She doesn't think about it. It comes from this understanding of all suffering and distress has been relieved, and then she teaches.

[77:30]

And whether it's towards her body or another body, It's the same practice. But I'm not saying it's any different, but part of reality is to harmonize the way you practice justice towards the appearance of others and towards the appearance of self, towards self and others. You want to realize the suchness of the self and others, that's the liberation. And so when it's a self or an other, can you in both cases come back with this just, with this ethical, response. And the response is thinking, but you don't have to think about the thinking. You just think. You just think, yay, an opportunity for justice. What's the opportunity in this case? It's an injustice is the opportunity for justice. But also in the case of justice, that doesn't mean when there's justice there's not an opportunity for justice. When there's justice appearing, then you practice justice towards justice too, which is you don't say, well, that's my justice.

[78:39]

I did it by myself. Or you don't lie about the justice or you don't get intoxicated by the justice and you don't try to kill the justice. But some people, when they see justice, they try to kill it because they're caught by their story that they didn't want that person to do the justice. I was just about to do it. You beat me to the punch. That was my justice, and you took it away from me. How are you doing, Jay? Is that clear? In a way. Yeah. Rita? I was trying to think of the practice of zazen and studying karmic consciousness. Is sitting zazen, or does that help you get some clarity by studying the stories and things that come up as you're sitting zazen?

[79:41]

So do you say that's one of the activities of zazen or not, to study the karmic consciousness? I would say studying karmic consciousness is zazen. Like when the Zen master says, a highly cultivated person does not obscure karmic consciousness, a highly cultivated person is a practitioner of zazen. This Zen master is teaching zazen. He said, and when you're highly cultivated, you don't obscure karmic consciousness. You've got a person sitting in the zendo, a sentient being in the zendo, and you've got a karmic consciousness there. And the karmic consciousness is living with a vast unconscious cognitive process and a vast body. So you've got a vast body, a vast mind, and a little mind of karmic consciousness at every seat in that zendo. all these huge inconceivable bodies, huge inconceivable minds, and eighty or so little karmic consciousnesses in which there's a whole universe appearing.

[80:52]

So, zazen is not to obscure that process. And not obscuring it means you practice all these bodhisattva practices with what's coming up. You're sitting in a zendo, And you practice generosity towards everything that comes up. You practice ethics with everything that comes up. You practice patience with everything that comes up. You practice wisdom with everything that comes up. You realize the emptiness of everything. But to realize the emptiness of everything, you have to not be fooled by karmic consciousness, because karmic consciousness doesn't look empty. But all those non-empty forms are actually emptiness. That's a highly cultivated person's thought. The other, less cultivated people, their study is not so deep. In other words, they're fooled by karmic consciousness and they don't think they're fooled.

[81:59]

They think they actually are not a fool. But the bodhisattvas realize that karmic consciousness is the land of linguistic foolishness. And they're very generous about that and warm about that and listen to it all day long. Do you think there's a different, when you're sitting zazen, there's a different awareness of your karmic consciousness than in our everyday world? In other words, we're thinking about our intention. Yeah, I think in zazen you're not obscuring karmic consciousness and in non-zazen you are obscuring it. But non-sazen doesn't mean you're in the kitchen. Non-sazen means when you're obscuring karmic consciousness, when you're denying it, when you're saying, this isn't karmic consciousness, this is like reality. Because karmic consciousness looks like reality.

[83:02]

I'm not dreaming. I'm not dreaming. Other people might be, but I'm not. That's an example of karmic consciousness. So zazen is not obscuring karmic consciousness. That's what the highly cultivated person, that's how they live with karmic consciousness. That's how they live with karmic cause and effect. They don't obscure it. They don't deny it. That's zazen. When we do obscure it, when we do deny it, that's not zazen. But that not zazen, if you study that and don't obscure that, then zazen has arrived again. This is called, by Dogen Zenji, deep faith in cause and effect. This is also called by Dogen Zenji, great enlightenment. Great enlightenment is when you're always studying cause and effect. Buddha's always studying and realizing cause and effect. Buddha's always doing zazen. Zazen is wisdom.

[84:05]

Wisdom understands cause and effect. It's always studying it. And wisdom is mindful and remembers that you're always looking at cause and effect. That's what you're always looking at all day long. You're looking at the cause and effect of consciousness, which is the cause and effect of body and consciousness and cognitive process. That's what we're looking at all day long, and so we train to remember that. How does breath relate to it? In karmic consciousness, the breath appears. I mean, a breath appears. A story of the breath appears. Breath actually does not come or go. Fundamentally, breath doesn't arise or cease. It doesn't come or go. It doesn't increase or decrease. It isn't born and doesn't die.

[85:08]

But in karmic consciousness, breath does all that stuff. So you watch the karmic consciousness breath, you study that, you don't obscure that, and then the breath is, when you study it that way, turns into a door into the truth of breath. It's the same breath, but now you realize this profound aspect is it doesn't come or go. It doesn't come and, you know, it isn't the first, second, or third breath. So breath is another important thing that appears in karmic consciousness which is recommended as an opportunity to practice compassion towards the breath. And if you practice compassion towards the breath, you don't obscure karmic consciousness in which the breath appears. And then you realize what breath really is. And then you continue breathing now. But now your breathing is an expression of wisdom, and your breathing is a transmission of the teaching.

[86:14]

Was there anybody else that had their hands raised before that? Oh, yeah, Jim, and then Paula. Jim? I have a question about the zazen shin that we're chanting. Yes. It goes along with your realm of... It goes along with your non-thinking? It goes along with your non-thinking and merges... It does something with the realm of non-thinking. It illuminates? It illuminates the realm of non-thinking. Yeah. Yeah, it's a little scary to me. I mean, I can understand going along... Well, again, so this is another example of a teaching about how to relate to karmic consciousness.

[87:18]

And I don't mean to make more work for the Eno, but I think I'd like to put another translation, a different translation of Zazen Shin in the book and take away the one we've been using. And another translation I want to use is where it says, it goes along or moves forth with your not thinking. It's another translation. And so this not thinking, non-thinking, you know, some people, there's this term, fu, right, which means, usually translated as not. But in that text that you're referring to, Zazen Shin, where it says non-thinking in that first line, it's actually fu, not he. In other words, it should be not thinking. I would say it should be not thinking. And what is it that's moving along, Jim? It.

[88:23]

It. And what is it? Yeah, it's zazen. It's the essential function of every Buddha. The functioning essence of every ancestor is zazen. The essential function of the Buddhas is moving along with your not thinking. And sometimes the essential function of a Buddha is thinking. Sometimes the Buddha's thinking as part of the function of Buddha. Buddha thinks. And what does the Buddha think? Well, the Buddha thinks stuff like, I wish that all beings would enter the great way and attain supreme enlightenment as soon as possible. That's how Buddha thinks. That is how the great function could go forward. But that thought in a Buddha goes forward, moves forward in that thinking by not thinking. In other words, they realize that thinking is not thinking. And in that way, this great function moves forward.

[89:31]

And then they also illuminate without merging, but another translation is they illuminate without interacting. Without interacting with objects? Without interacting with objects, without interacting with beings, without interacting with the essential function, without interacting with common consciousness. Yeah. And in the, what do you call it, in the Sandokai it says, they interact and do not interact. But that's all, interacting and not interacting means they don't interact. Which is another one we say, turning away and touching are both wrong. That's the way you relate. And that's the way things are illuminated. By relating in a way that you don't touch, you don't turn away.

[90:35]

By interacting but not interacting. That's what Zazen does. So check it out. Are you like not turning away or touching? Are you realizing that your thinking is not thinking? This is how this zazen moves forward. So, but, you know, if I'm in zazen, but then I get distracted by a train of thought, it seems like at that point I have merged. I've merged, something's merged with the train of thought. Well, it sounds like you're touching. You could say you're touching the thought. Or you could say you're turning away from, guess what? What are you turning away from, Jim? Yeah, right.

[91:42]

You're turning away, and that's no good, so I'll touch. Or I'm touching, and that's no good, so I'll turn away. Turning away and touching are both off. So how can you be with what's happening? And what can happen, a train of thought can happen. But it seems like, you say, well, I think, it seems like this train of thought wouldn't be happening if I wasn't touching. But it's more like the train of thought wouldn't be a distraction if I wasn't touching. It's the not touching trains of thought that's zazen. And it's the not turning away from, if you turn away from trains of thought, they just keep running with no zazen on board. When zazen's on board, there's no touching of the train, and there's no turning away from it. They're just realizing. So I'm kind of, I'm sort of intending to talk about Zazen Shin in this session.

[92:51]

But you're welcome to ask questions before, too. Let's see, there were some other hands, Paula and And Jeff and Andrew again, but probably we should stop pretty soon. Paula? Just shortly on the breath again. So that means that death, the breath doesn't cease, that particular story of the breath ceased. Well, the stories of the breath go with this thing called death. The death means the end of karmic consciousness for a while. And so there's no more karmic consciousness stories of breath. But what about the breath, the big one, the inconceivable breath? What happens to that breath? Okay? Let me tell you. Not only do I not know, but all the Buddhas in Ten Directions don't know what happens to that breath.

[93:54]

That breath is zazen. Zazen is the way the breath really is, and that doesn't come or go. That breath is infinite. But we are totally immersed in that infinite breath, and our karmic consciousness makes these nice stories about it, like inhale and exhale, inspire and expire, aspire and respire. We have all these stories, all these words about the breath. So we can study the breath. We can study this manifestation, this thing that's supported by inconceivable living process. But birth and death arise and cease, all that stuff, is karmic consciousness. And we're free of karmic consciousness whether we're so-called alive or dead. Then we have freedom from karmic consciousness whether we're alive or dead. We have realization of what breath really is. But we're not going to get realization of what breath really is if we ignore breath.

[94:54]

We're not going to get realization of anything if we ignore it. And also we're not going to get realization if we obscure it and grasp it. Breath is a highly recommended thing to be mindful of, along with everything else. Yes? Breath is something that you can, in early phases of your meditation, you can get in touch with, like your body. Body first, and then posture first, and then breath. The practitioner knows she's sitting when she's sitting. She knows she's walking. She knows she's inhaling. She's got a body that's breathing. She knows about that. This is an easy way for her to get tuned in to karmic consciousness in a wholesome way. Jeff? Yeah. Zazen.

[96:00]

Zazen. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah, so to say that it's a massifier is, if you really think that that's what it is, you just defiled it a little bit. Yeah, but you don't have to believe it. You can just say it's like a massifier, and then you say, that didn't depict it. I just said that. Is there a way to say also then that turning away... Is there a way to say that turning away and touching are both right? You just did. Is there a way for that to actually penetrate consciousness and actually become that pacifier? Yeah, right. There's a way for, well, I don't know if the words penetrate or if the study of the words penetrate. The words, I think, are what is penetrated. And if you deal with the words, turning away and touching are both right, if you deal with those words properly, you will enter the Dharma through those words.

[97:08]

And the proper way of dealing with the words, turning away and touching are both right, is by not turning away or touching those words. If you don't turn away or touch the words, turning away and touching are both right, That koan that you just made up, if you deal with that koan properly, by not turning away or touching it, that way of dealing will penetrate it. That practice will penetrate it. That practice will show you that turning away and touching are both right is a precious mirror. It's showing you who you really are. It's getting late. Should we have more questions? Is that enough? Should we stop? Got a yes?

[98:15]

Another yes? Is that enough? Because, you know, I appreciate all these hands in the air. Shows signs of life. I know you did, but the other people were ahead of you. Or were they behind you? Anyway, I'm happy you do. I'm happy you do. I just want to tell you that I, in one sense, I'm very happy and enthusiastic. In another sense, I'm sorry to make these sessions so long. I hope they're not tiring you out. May our intention equally extend to every being and place.

[99:18]

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