So in the ceremony, or in the universal encouragements for the ceremony of zazen, we have different translations for a certain section. One translation is, give up the operations of mind, intellect, and consciousness. Another one is cease all movements of the conscious mind. Does that sound familiar? The gauging of all thoughts and views. Another one is give up the revolutions of mind, consciousness and intellect. To me that sounds very much like training the attention in such a way as to lead to the realization of tranquility.

[01:18]

And also I could understand this as saying this is attending to a non-conceptual object. So objects are appearing in consciousness, appearing and disappearing in consciousness. Consciousness is arising and ceasing and it arises with objects and ceases with objects. When the consciousness arises, consciousness arises with objects When it ceases, the objects cease. When the objects arise, consciousness arise. There's no objects arising ahead of or without consciousness, and no consciousness arising without objects. However, there are cognitions that aren't like that.

[02:26]

This is talking about consciousness. Consciousness has objects. So objects are appearing. So the non-conceptual object is the objects appearing. And the non-conceptual object that you're looking at, almost maybe simultaneously with this object, whatever it is, you're looking at not moving. the non-conceptual object you're looking at, you're contemplating to develop tranquility, you're looking at not moving. So you've got a face or a feeling and you're tending to not moving in relationship to that. And to be mindful of that

[03:28]

not in a way that moves in relationship to what's appearing. It's not an operation. You're tending to not operating, to not moving, to being still in relationship to whatever comes up. And that is a mind, and that mind is uninterrupted. There is a mind that coexists in a way with the mind that is interrupted, or I should say, to interrupted minds. There's interrupted minds, rising and ceasing minds, and then we're tending to a mind that doesn't arise and cease. So that's like attending to a mind.

[04:39]

It's attending to a mind. Objects are appearing and you're attending to a mind. And then another instruction is learn the backward step that turns the light and shines it back. So you see objects. It's another way to say it. You see objects and then learn how to turn the light back and look at the uninterrupted mind while you're looking at objects. Or look at the non-conceptual mind while you're looking at objects. So this kind of practice is recommended for developing samadhi. This is a painting. I think it's by Sesshu, a Japanese painter.

[05:41]

Can you see it? You can't see it? Would you turn the lights? Does that help? No. Can't we see? We can see. So this is a picture of Bodhidharma and this is a picture of Huayka. So Huayka's coming to ask to study with him. Bodhidharma's facing the wall. I'll pass this around so you can look at it. And like I mentioned, around Bodhidharma is this very soft halo.

[06:52]

And And Bodhidharma's face and Hueka's face are very detailed and sharply articulated, but around Bodhidharma is this soft halo of samadhi. So Bodhidharma taught, I mean, this is a transmission of a person who we don't know who he was. We don't have clear evidence that he actually was a historical figure. But he certainly is a religious figure in the minds of millions, maybe billions of people, Bodhidharma. And so one teaching attributed to this spiritual being, this bodhisattva, is pacify, you know, concentrate your mind with no contrivance.

[07:59]

Pacify your mind with no contrivance. What does contrivance mean? Meddling. Meddling. Operations. Operation. Application. Application. Technique. Thinking. Without any thinking, yeah. So that's one of his teachings, just concentrate the mind. Yeah. Hoyka's holding his forearm as an offering which he cut off as a gift for his teacher. Then another teaching attributed to Bodhidharma is after Huayka was accepted as a student, Bodhidharma said to him something like, and the translations are somewhat different.

[09:22]

One translation is, similar to the translation in the book on Zanzengi, cease all involvements. Outwardly, cease all involvements. Inwardly, no coughing or sighing in the mind. with a mind like a wall, thus you enter the way." Coughing.

[10:23]

Another possible translation is without any gasping. Gasping or sighing in the mind. Coughing or gasping. I think gasping is better. It has something to do with, you know, in both cases there's some kind of like, you know, in some sense no psychophysical comment inwardly. Another translation would be outwardly cease activating the mind around objects. And inwardly, again, also in some sense cease, cease reactivity inwardly.

[11:35]

like, . Sort of gastrointestinal comments about our throat is part of the gastrointestinal tract, isn't it? Without this, this inwardly no reaction, outwardly no reaction. So you look at it, you learn to look at a face in one sense without getting involved, in another sense without getting activated or activating the mind around. You look at something without thinking good or bad without thinking about what does it look like. I look at him and then I say it. I give up thinking that looks like Devin or that Devin looks different.

[12:41]

Give up that stuff. It doesn't mean that those things are not there. It's just you're not involved in them. One time A brother, David Stendelrost, heard me quote this teaching about cease all involvements and he thought people would think that that would mean that you would cease involvement in helping people. That's not the point here. The point is we're talking about a way of helping people which is called developing samadhi. Part of helping people, bodhisattvas who want to help people, sometimes think, well, I think in order to help people it would be good if I had realized perfect wisdom. That would be helpful for me to help them. And also, if I wish to have wisdom in order to help people, then I've also heard I should develop samadhi.

[13:50]

So bodhisattvas develop samadhi so that they can help people. The point of developing samadhi for the bodhisattva is so that they can be more successful in the project of helping living beings to be free and live in peace. And part of samadhi is cease all involvements. which means when you relate to somebody, cease all thinking about them. So that's the instruction that Bodhidharma, something like that, he gave. And in some versions of the story, after the end of that instruction, End of the instruction.

[14:54]

Outwardly cease being reactive to objects. Inwardly cease being reactive to objects. With a mind like a wall. So he's famous, Bodhidharma's famous for facing the wall. And they call his practice wall-facing. Wall-facing. So I usually think he's facing the wall. But another one is he's practicing being like a wall. Walls, in some sense, walls reflect images, but they're unreactive. With a mind like a wall, thus you enter the way. And then Hueyka says something. In some versions of the story, it's just the next line. In other versions of the story, it says, Hueco worked with the teacher for seven years.

[16:00]

And then comes the next line. And the next line is, I've ceased all involvements. And one translation says, and I don't know, probably there's some good justification for it, one translation says, and the next, oh, I see. I see. One translation says, I've already ceased all involvements. I see. So that translation kind of goes like, Bodhidharma says cease all involvements. You know, blah, blah, blah. That's how you enter the way. Thus you enter the way. And then the student says, I've already ceased all involvements. So maybe that line would follow, like when you think he's right away coming back. So the teacher's telling him, cease all involvements.

[17:04]

He says, I've already ceased all involvements. There you go. You could just tell the story again like that. So then, in other words, you're telling me to cease all involvements? I've already ceased all involvements. And then the teacher says, does that turn into nihilism? Or another translation is, does that turn into death? And the Quaker says, no. And Bodhidharma says, can you prove it? And he says, I'm always clearly aware and no words reach it.

[18:05]

And Bodhidharma says, this is the essence of minds which all Buddhas take care of. Have no further doubt. But I guess the other translation where if you say there's seven years in between, then he says one day, finally, I have no further involvements. So in this story, it looks like he's given... Well, yeah. He's given instructions, what looked like shamatha instructions, and that's all Bodhidharma's telling him. Oh, he's also saying, he's also saying, if you do these practices, you will enter the way. But in a way, I don't see in there any instructions for insight work.

[19:14]

It sounds like just samadhi development instruction. And he says, with a mind like a wall, like in this way, thus you enter the way. So again, that part, it's hard to see any insight instruction for me. It's hard to see it. Except maybe that comment with a mind like a wall. Maybe that's the insight instruction. So he's telling him, give up the movements of the mind. In other words, don't move. Whatever happens, don't move. Be still. Don't mess with it. And without messing with what's happening, the mind becomes calm. And then he says, with a mind like a wall.

[20:17]

So maybe that's the insight instruction. What's this mind like a wall thing? Well, don't get involved with that. However, there's a further conversation and the further conversation could be seen as insight work. Because the student then, from this place, of being told to not get involved, and maybe then he doesn't get involved, says he doesn't get involved. You're being told, don't activate the mind, give up thinking, give up operating the mind. And then the student says, I've already given up operating the mind. I'm already in samadhi. Okay? Now, is this samadhi nihilistic? And the student says, no.

[21:19]

And says, prove it. And he proves it by the next statement. And then the teacher approves it. Pardon? How did that answer prove it? Oh, because he's saying, I'm conscious. I'm always conscious. And what I just said, which might sound like nihilism, you told me cease all involvements. You're the one who said it. But anyway, I did that. But having no involvements could be like death. I think that's kind of a scary statement, have no involvements. But it's not nihilism because no words reach the state of no involvements. So the words no involvements or the words not activating mind around objects, none of those words reach the place you go when you follow that instruction.

[22:32]

So it's an instruction which you follow and you reach a place where the instructions don't reach. So even though it might sound like nihilism, to have no involvement, nihilism is in some sense a misunderstanding of nothing. It's like misunderstanding nothing. And that therefore, since everything's empty or since there's nothing, why should I practice the precepts? What's the point? They're nothing. That's like death. That's like nihilism. Nothing matters. But he's not saying nothing matters. He says, I've reached a place where no words reach. And Bodhidharma feels that that was not a nihilistic response.

[23:39]

There's life after samadhi. Or there's life in samadhi, and there's life after realizing wisdom, too. Yes? Can you relate that to the term nirvana? You know, the character that's translated sometimes as death and sometimes as nihilism, that character actually would usually be translated as extinction. So another translation would be, if you say you have no involvement, does that turn into extinction? And extinction is also that character is sometimes used for nirvana. Nirvana, it comes from the root to extinguish or cease, nirodha.

[24:42]

Well, not nihilistic. So let me first say that for a bodhisattva, nirvana is okay to visit occasionally. But he said, I'm always... No, he didn't say that yet. Anyway, bodhisattvas can go to nirvana, they just can't stay there. Whereas some other followers of the Buddha and other traditions too are interested in nirvana, and to go there and have that be a long-term residence. So bodhisattvas, if they would realize samadhi and from there enter nirvana, they should not stay there. And he says, no, I'm not staying in nirvana. I'm not entering into extinction or cessation. I'm ceasing all involvements, but I'm not ceasing my bodhisattva vows.

[25:54]

Let me say a little bit more before the questions. Before the questions, I want to say more before questions, because other people are asking too. I want to say a little bit more. So I'm still seeing in our Zen tradition an accord with the teaching that one gesture of meditation is to look at a non-conceptual object to give up thinking, and the other gesture of meditation is to, based on that, after realizing tranquility by giving up thinking, then in the tranquil state you contemplate the process, the way the mind works, the way the world works.

[27:05]

You look at how things work. First you train at giving up all images associated with objects. Then you look at the images associated with the objects and see how they work. Then you get to see how suffering works. From this tranquil place you see it in a new way. Before you enter samadhi you might have already used your discursive thought, used your thinking process to learn some teachings. Then you put aside the teachings, put aside the intellectual study, as Dogen says. Put aside intellectual study, develop samadhi, and then, after settling into samadhi, then go back and look at the words. Then look at the words. Now look at them. And in the first instruction, the first version of Fukanzazange, he says, give up intellectual instruction.

[28:12]

For example, give up the instruction which I'm going to give you later. And just cease the movements of the mind. Enter samadhi. And then, he says, and then when an object arises, now he's going to give you instruction what to do with the objects, now that you're calm. First he said, give up all association with the object and calm down. Now he's giving instructions when the object arises, just look at it. As soon as you look at it, it disappears. Then again, then again, then again. This is a technique of forgetting the object. with applying the instruction, just look at it, just look at it, just look at it. Attaining, becoming unified, and this is the essential art of zazen. So zazen is a way of becoming calm and then in calm of contemplating objects to understand them.

[29:21]

to understand something that in a way is not the objects but the nature of the objects Then something happens in Dogen's life, and he writes the Fukanzazengi again, and it's quite similar, but the main place that it's different for me is that he says the same thing, gives the same instruction for how to calm down, and then after you're calm, he says, think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Non-thinking. Or think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Non-thinking. beyond thinking. It's beyond thinking. The way you think not thinking is beyond thinking. So now he's giving that instruction to the people who have settled into a steady immobile sitting position. So what happened to him between, why did he change it?

[30:30]

How did he change such that he gave this different instruction where he gives, instead of just look at it, he gives a koan. He gives a Zen story. Look at a Zen story. And so calming down and looking at Zen stories, is the essential art of Zazen. Calming down and looking at, analyzing objects is the essential art of Zazen. The first one's a little bit more like, I think, pan-Buddhist. The second one is a little bit more like the Zen family. We're using our own family stories as objects of contemplation once we have entered into a steady, immobile samadhi. And I want to just, I don't know how briefly this is, but just say that this also resonates for me with solitude, the issue of solitude.

[31:36]

And one way I would rephrase solitude is an absence of social business. And one way to develop solitude is to go away from people. Far enough away so you can't hear their voices. go far enough, go to a place where you're not socially involved, like go hang out with trees whose language you do not get distracted by. But I actually like this idea that rather than going away from people, you just live with them, giving up social busyness, because the purpose of the practice really is social intimacy.

[32:53]

Zazen is actually social intimacy. So social intimacy involves calming down together And then, once we're calm, to contemplate our relationships in such a way that we understand intimacy. So we give up social busyness for the sake of social intimacy. And that giving up social busyness is the process of solitude. And so we actually, many of us need help from some people in order to have solitude. Some people who we care about a lot need to say to us, it's okay for you to be quiet.

[33:58]

It's okay for you to talk to me in a way that's not busy. People allow me to do that. People come to see me in the room and they allow me to ask them to give up social busyness. So if they bring up topics that seem like social busyness to me, a lot of people allow me to say, you know, I'd rather not talk about that here. Like I don't know what, you know, people might have various comments to make about political events that are occurring in Zen Center or around the world.

[35:01]

They want to chat about that. I may say, could we not talk about that here? Could we talk more about, could we have a social interaction where we discuss how to cease all movements of the conscious mind? And most people say, okay. Some people, I don't know what, some people, they might want to tell me that they're upset. I'm upset. To me, for somebody to tell me that, not necessarily busy yet. But if they tell me they're upset because their uncle's sick, I start to wonder. And then if they tell me, start giving me, tell me what their uncle's sick about, and the nature of his illness. And then they tell me the doctors he's going to see to treat his illness and where the doctors went to school. And by the way, those doctors also know, are close friends with certain famous people.

[36:04]

And those people, some of those famous people, have recently been indicted for inside trading. And I think it's really good that they're catching these rich people that are pulling these tricks. And then I might say, could we talk about something else? Could we talk more about you, back to how you're feeling, that you're upset? So people allow me to sort of say, I'd rather not talk about that right now. You see the social business? The mind is being activated. The mind is not like a wall. And so I'm supported to develop social intimacy with people partly by giving up social busyness. But a person can talk about ordering a new refrigerator. They can discuss that with me in a way that I feel like they're actually not

[37:09]

that they're not getting busy about it. And I might watch them calmly discuss buying a refrigerator in a way that they are with a mind like a wall, where they're not getting activated about it. And then the transmission of the stillness is going on They're showing it to me. I'm supporting it. So the topic, the object can be buying a refrigerator. The object could be my uncle's sick. It could be anything. But are they talking about it in a way that develops social intimacy? Okay. If they're talking about that just busy and vibrating, could we talk either about something else or in a different way? are you practicing tranquility while you're talking to me?"

[38:16]

I might say. I might say, are you still while you're talking to me now? And they might allow me to ask that question and talk to me about that. I feel like this is not social business. I think this is like us working on our intimacy. these two ancestors talked to each other a little bit. But they were talking to develop intimacy, not just to distract themselves from learning about their minds. But we need to have friends who will allow us to be with them and put aside social business, to be with them in a way that promotes intimacy, to talk in a way that promotes intimacy.

[39:30]

And a lot of times the way of talking that promotes social intimacy is called silence. or is called not talking too much or sounds like, could we be quiet for a while? I just thought of my own family. My mother had four children and one of them died when she was about six months old. I was about three. when she died. So I was aware, I remember the day she died. I remember I came home and I went into the living room and it was really quiet and my parents were in the back part of the house and it was very quiet. And I sort of was not encouraged to go back there.

[40:36]

And some other adult told me that my little sister had died. And I had two little sisters and one of them was the sister who destroyed my total possession of my mother. Destroyed your? My total possession of my mother. When she came, I had to share my mother with her. So I was not so appreciative of my first sister. But by the time my second sister came, it was like I was old enough and I'd gotten used to sharing and I really appreciated having a little baby sister. She was really nice to have, a little sister, and then she died. And then I had a little brother. So when the little brother grew up and my little sister grew up and I got old, we were with my mother one time when she was about 88.

[41:38]

And we're at her house. And for the previous 60 years or whatever, we had social busyness at our house. We talked a lot, but a lot of it was we weren't focused on talking in a way that developed samadhi. And we didn't support each other so much in really speaking in a sincere, intimacy-promoting way. But on that occasion, I just thought of we were all sitting or standing with my mother on a little patio outside of her apartment. And we were all there. And actually, I don't know if we were talking or not, but it was silent. We were just there together. And I thought, wow, we finally made it.

[42:51]

We were just together. And nobody was making any comments to distract us from the fact that this family was together. Everybody was there. And it seemed like everybody knew. But I didn't say, do you guys see what's happening here? But I felt like, you know, and my mother was, we knew any moment she might die. But I felt like we were finally a success. We finally achieved intimacy. And again, we might have been talking, but the talk was not, this is a, do you know the word wisecrack? Do you know wisecrack? Wisecrack is like, in some sense, making a funny comment that is, anyway, just sort of a kind of distracting kind of thought.

[43:59]

Nobody was saying anything distracting. Whatever was being said, it was saying, whatever words were being used, it seemed like they were saying, we're here together. And that's it. And nothing else matters. that we're a family is the point, and nobody's trying to make that better or worse. Nobody's complaining about it. We're just doing it by being together. And the next day, my brother said to me, I think Mom solved what happened yesterday. He hadn't said anything to me. I hadn't said anything to him. But he also saw it. And he thought she saw it. And I don't know if she saw it, but it was there. And we allowed each other to be who we were.

[45:01]

Everybody was letting everybody be who they were. And it hadn't been that way. I hadn't noticed it. I hadn't realized it. And there were things happening for the previous 60 years between us that often seemed like diversions from that presence. So it was social intimacy. It wasn't social busyness. And that family had distracted itself from itself innumerable times in the past, but that day it didn't happen. It wasn't going on for a little while. So we here, this sangha is trying to do that too. We're trying to support each other to be silent and still, to settle into a state of samadhi, and from that state of samadhi,

[46:05]

to interact intimately. And we can try to interact intimately prior to entering samadhi, and that is beneficial. It's just that with samadhi we can do it more fully. And we are, I feel that we're doing that. And Part of me wants to say I sympathize with some people who made a big effort to come here and have, like Albrecht, he came here and he's sick. And other people want to be here for this thing and have some trouble with illness. So it's kind of hard to be sick, but also to be sick in a situation where there's a special time for you. And so some people say to me, how are you?

[47:13]

Someone said that to me in .. How are you? And I think I probably said something like, great. And part of what great means is that I just feel great to be able to do this practice. It's just great. And I was feeling in the end of the other day like I was a workhorse, you know. And I've got the, what do they wear? I've got the traces. I've got my stuff on and I'm a workhorse. And I'm pulling this big vehicle. And it's just really great just to be. And that to be able to do it, to be able to step forward on the path. So I'm very happy that I've been able to do this.

[48:14]

And I'm sorry for any people who have not been feeling well, who also wanted to be fully engaged. So for me, good health is being able to practice, even if you're not, however you're feeling, to be able to practice. That's good health. And we'll see. Maybe I'll be blessed for another week or so of being able to practice this way, which I'll be, I'll feel great about. And it will be great. So there's the samadhi work, and then when samadhi work's successful, then there's insight work. And So now there were some questions. So I'll just say the names of the people who I saw raising their hands. I saw Bhatia and I see Leon and Tracy.

[49:23]

Was there anybody else? And Joel? Bhatia? I just want to reassure myself, because as I understand, Buddha teaches you that life is the one who never was born, and death is the unextinction. So that's why Buddhism doesn't believe in nihilism? There is no nihilism in Buddhism? Yeah, Buddhism tries to avoid nihilism, tries to not get involved with nihilism, but Buddhism is aware that Buddhist teachings, when misunderstood, can slip into nihilism. So we have to be careful of that. So a lot of scholars, when they look at the teachings of emptiness, they say Buddhists are nihilists.

[50:26]

That's a nihilist teaching that they have there. Too much negation of stuff. So negation is part of the language that is used. And so we have to be careful not to be nihilistic because the foundation the teachings that are coming that sound like nihilism, they're coming from a place of deep commitment to ethical discipline. And so based on ethical discipline, sometimes people have insights which when they express them, they express it as not or no. And if people have a nihilistic understanding of those teachings, they should put those teachings aside and go back to ethical discipline. But they're in danger of not being devoted to ethical discipline when they hear teachings, when they misunderstand teachings of insubstantiality.

[51:31]

and lack of independent existence. These kinds of teachings lack of independent existence, lack of permanent self, impermanence. It's possible to go into a nihilistic side road and then think, well, you don't have to take care of your conduct because nothing matters. So that's a danger. Leon? It seems that, especially if you were saying Samadhi is more, last time you said it's more karmic, and you also said that it's more to get more insight. It seems like A lot of traditions go into, I think, like Native Americans have vision quests of different sorts.

[52:51]

It seems that maybe a wise move and maybe some sort of incentive to go into a Why a more simple place would be to see a building lots or come from that where you can build lots of people so that you can that are working that are, that are being suffered or are being messed up. Yeah. So, so we, [...] Yeah.

[54:10]

What comes to mind when you said that is there's a collection of Zen stories called The Gateless Barrier. And The first story is the story about a monk asking the teacher, Zhaozhou, does a dog have Buddha nature? And Zhaozhou says, mu, or no, or doesn't have any. That's the first case. And that case, if you stop there, you could fall into nihilism. Dogs, no. But the second case is, a story about a story about Bajang and a fox.

[55:18]

And the fox is appearing as an old man who comes to Bajang's teachings and sits in the back of the room and after one of the talks, finally the old man comes forth and tells Bai Zhang that he used to, in ancient time, he used to live on this mountain and he was the head monk of a monastery that was on the same mountain a long time ago. And at that time, somebody asked him, does a highly developed person fall into cause and effect, cause into the way things are put together and fall apart? And I said, and he said, no. And as a result of saying no, he got put into 500 lifetimes as a fox, which means 500 lifetimes of

[56:19]

you see, actually, you can't get out of how the way things work. You can't get out of the building blocks. And so then he says to Bai Zhang, can you turn the words that I got trapped by? And Bai Zhang says, ask me. And so the fox old man said to Bai Zhang, does a highly cultivated person fall into karmic cause and effect or not. And Bai Zhang didn't say not, and Bai Zhang didn't say does. Bai Zhang said, she does not obscure it. She does not ignore it. So in the second case, the story about Bai Zhang, the instruction is, don't ignore karmic cause and effect. Or you could say, contemplate how things, how karma and the world work to create each other.

[57:27]

Contemplate that. Don't forget that. Don't ignore that. And watch out for saying yes and no. Although you might. The main thing is keep contemplating how the world dependently co-arises, how everything... But contemplating doesn't mean you can see it, it just means you're always mindful of it. So everything you do, you can't see the effects and you can't see the causes, but you're watching everything as cause and effect. And that's very important. And in this particular case, they're saying, first of all, deal with no, and then from settling into samadhi with no, now look at yes or no, I don't know, let's look at it. Let's keep looking at cause and effect, but let's look at it from the point of view of passing through the first case. And the second case is to protect against nihilism.

[58:32]

So the second case is to protect against the nihilism that could happen in the first case, and to protect against the nihilism that could happen to somebody who settles into samadhi. So samadhi should, for the bodhisattva, be used to contemplate karma, cause and effect, and remember it. Which is like remember being still, but also remember not thinking. How do you think not thinking? Beyond thinking. Remember, contemplate thinking, and remember beyond thinking. as a way to look at how thinking works, because thinking is what creates the world. Tracy? During study, a question came up for me. And I realized that I was a little ashamed of the question.

[59:41]

It was like an inappropriate question. But I kind of wanted to ask him anyway. So I was going to try to figure a way to get it in today. And then he talked about social business, and it seemed like, no, I haven't been taught with social business questions. So I kind of slapped it away. And when you talked about the refrigerator, it was just so moot. Because that is what it is. It's OK to talk about the refrigerator or anything if a person is sincere. I'm not very moot to remember that. And so I'm going to ask my question. We're having a wine. Oh, you want to know where it is? You want to know where it is? It's grandchildren.

[61:10]

So that's where it is. But grandparents should not be going to grandchildren to get fun. That's not fun. That's just greedy. But grandchildren are into fun. And the way they're into fun for the grandparents is not social busyness, it's social intimacy. Because you can see in their adorable, what's it called, pursuit of fun, you can see how deluded they are. and how much suffering they're going to cause themselves by their pursuit of fun. But it's there and it's so lovely and so alive, you know, and it's there. But it's there not as a distraction but as something for you to take care of them and show them that you love them

[62:21]

as they go off on these adventures to have fun, and you love them when they are frustrated that they don't get anything that they're looking for. And, you know, all that's, there's fun. But Buddhists are not trying to get anything. But fun does come. And oftentimes when it comes, it comes in the form of people who are trying to get it. But sometimes it just, when you're in samadhi, sometimes you might actually, it just might come upon you. Oh, orgy is fun. It's fun. It's fun cleaning these bowls. It might just suddenly come on you. But most, actually most, a lot of people are not doing orgy for fun. But it can come to you. I was trying to distinguish between fun and all the good stuff. It isn't that joy, you know, all these wonderful qualities, all of which... Just a second.

[63:25]

Anyway, I'm tangled up in this thing. I'm trying to distinguish fun from all the other really outstanding attributes that I do understand Buddhism is about. Fun itself. And so I'm kind of looking at it so hard. Yeah? And I'm thinking, you know, maybe this is just kind of this modern world, Western... thing that seems like everyone in the world out there that I live in is all about, and I feel like, no, where am I? I'm not even interested in that. So that's, I think, where the sadness came from. Yeah, maybe so. Maybe you feel... Do you feel a tad alienated from the people who are into fun? I do. Yeah.

[64:26]

But there's some people, like people who are working in ICU units... intensive care units those people are like quite they're not necessarily having fun taking care of those people but they're like really being quite energetic about it and the people they're taking care of sometimes feel like these are these people are so helpful and so compassionate and so skillful and they might think that about themselves or they might not have time for that but there's a lot of people who are doing work and it's really good work and people are really appreciating it and not feeling alienated from them and they're not exactly having fun and the patients are not necessarily having fun either but they're sincerely receiving attention and Yeah, so at that time you might not feel alienated from those people. You might feel like, hey, I really respect their work and we're in a family. This is part of my family, these people.

[65:28]

But when people want to have fun, then basically they're, from my perspective, they're like grandchildren who I love. But they're just children. Buddha's not into having fun. Buddha's thinking about how to help the people who are trying to have fun and who are constantly on the verge of catastrophe and misery. But if they're surrounded by a lot of love, they get through the day. And the day starts out with all these ideas of this fun that they're going to have. And then for some of them, by noon, it's like, Life has become a tragedy and it's time for a nap. And they need help. And then they take their nap and then they wake up and then fun is possible again, maybe.

[66:31]

Not as much as maybe the first time, early in the morning. Yeah, right. And taking care of these people who are into fun is delightful. But there's some people who are not so much into fun, and taking care of them is also delightful. But most of the adults that I'm taking care of when they're around me are not primarily on their fun trip. And my granddaughter is definitely into fun. She wants to watch these video shows. So I'm there to work with that. What about the current grandchildren here? What about them? You said that fun is when you're with your grandchild.

[67:32]

So what about, I now have grandchildren, so... No, it's not exactly fun for me to be with the grandchild. It's just that if you want to see where the fun is, the grandchildren are into fun. That's where you can be with people who are into fun. Well, but some people here are sometimes into fun, and then you can find it in them. So that's the being with the child, the childlike quality of the people here. Sometimes, I mean, I have in one sense, in a literal sense, a certain small number of grandchildren, but I relate to many people who are at advanced age as my grandchildren. And again, even they are in some sense literally my grandchildren.

[68:34]

So when you become more mature, you will notice more and more grandchildren. And that will help you because when people act in unskillful ways, it's basically because they're grandchildren. They haven't learned. much yet. And so in that sense they're like grandchildren. When people come to Green Gulch, at the beginning of their practice they may be like grandchildren. And to see them that way, you maybe have a lot of patience with them and an appreciation of them. They're adorable. They're adorable beginners at learning, and they're still into fun, still trying to get something out of life, which is childish.

[69:39]

So there's plenty of that here. I want to just thank you for that answer, a thousand percent. And my final thing is I want to register a complaint to Buddhism. In the morning chant, whenever the word, that thing where it ends in joy and the voice goes down, every single time I go like, well, good. No, no, no. Every morning I say, can we just... Okay, I'm done. So when I see, like if I'm out and about, I don't see it much around Green Gulch, but if I see like large male humans being aggressive, if I just see them as my grandsons, I don't get angry at them. I don't have an aggressive response to them. I see them as frightened little boys.

[70:42]

Even though they're much bigger and stronger than me, I see their fear. And then I see, you know, if my grandson was like that, I would just go, oh, my sweetheart. So I, particularly when people are at whatever size they are, whatever age they are, whenever they're acting aggressive and frightened or aggressive because they're afraid or et cetera, I try to frame them as my grandson or granddaughter. And that helps me be like a grandparent to them, which is to accept and forgive their childishness. And that's a joy to do. So it's a joy to be with people who want to have fun and are frustrated and angry because they're not, and to be able to be compassionate to them. Yes, Kathy.

[71:43]

I guess I'm just thinking about fun in terms of people kind of playful scientists and things like that? Or the playfulness of the mind? Playfulness is different from fun, I would say. Samadhi is characterized by playfulness. The flexibility of samadhi is playfulness. Wisdom work requires a playfulness. But playfulness is not necessarily fun. And I would They may look like that, and they may tell you that they're having fun, but they also may not have, that word might not apply to them. But if you look at their playfulness, so I don't want to prohibit the word fun, but the word play is more apropos, I think, in the sense of some people are having fun but not playful.

[72:48]

They're being rigid about it. They're doing something that they like to do, and they're doing it over and over too much, and they're in a rut. Like, of course, a number of addictions are like fun, but they're not playful. So I agree with the playful, and I think it's part of samadhi which supports wisdom work. And I don't say it's not fun, but I think playfulness is not trying to have fun. But fun may come while you're being playful. Playful is, yeah, it's not stuck in some agenda like have fun or avoid pain. Thank you. Joel? Yeah. This column is wonderful, and the words are wonderful.

[73:50]

I don't want to get distracted with it, but this business of cutting off the arm and all that always has bothered me a lot. And I wonder if you could just briefly tell me. I mean, it seems like violating the precepts. I imagine that if I did a great deal of research, I might find something out about Chinese culture that would make it seem more normal to me. In Japan... until recently, if you changed teachers or changed gangs. But one of our sewing teachers changed teachers. She went from one Zen teacher to another Zen teacher and cut off part of one of her fingers to demonstrate that she wasn't just being fickle. She wasn't just lightly going from one teacher to another. She respected the first teacher So she cut off the finger to say to the first teacher, you know, this is a big deal.

[74:54]

I'm not going from this person. I'm not going from you to somebody else. You know, I realize something's happening here. you don't have to cut your finger off when you first go to the teacher necessarily, but when you switch from one teacher to another. This teacher, who was a teacher to us, a very wonderful woman, she cut off part of her finger when she changed Zen teachers. And again, in Yakusa gangs, they cut off a finger maybe more than a little bit. They cut off a finger when they change gangs or when they're trying to say they're sorry or something. So it may be that it's just a little gesture of sincerity. You think, so somebody's saying to you, you know, you're not sincere. And so the story goes, Bodhidharma says, you're not sincere. So he says, oh, well, here, look, see, I am. And Bodhidharma says, okay. Or there's another story which

[75:55]

is very important in our tradition. It's a story about someone who basically saved Soto Zen. The Soto Zen lineage in China at a certain point only had one person in it. And that one person found a successor. So the tradition was going to go on, had found a new generation. But the successor died. And the teacher... was too old to find, you know, bring up a new successor. So he basically found another person who was already a Zen teacher and a successor in another lineage, and he asked that person who he already knew, had the ability to receive this transmission, to receive it and find a successor, because he wasn't going to have time to do that. This person. So the person who was already a teacher, who received the Soto Zen lineage to take care of it, to be like a foster parent, but then find somehow a genetic spiritual successor, that person is the person in the following story.

[77:11]

So he goes to, he and a friend of his go to a Zen teacher and they heard that he's really a great teacher and they traveled a long ways to see this teacher and they went in to see this teacher and they went into the, we have, the monasteries have a room for like for visiting monks and also for monks who are wishing to join the community. They go into like a holding room where they're available to demonstrate that they're sincere. So they go in there and they sit and maybe the teacher comes out after an hour, maybe the teacher comes after three hours, maybe the teacher comes out after two days. Anyway, they just go and sit there until somebody comes and talks to them and sees what they're up to. It's called the Tonga room, Tonga ryo.

[78:16]

And Tonga means itinerant monk. So a monk is traveling around. Come, they go into that room and sit. So in this story, this monk and his friend went and sat in this room. And there were some other people who also wanted to come and study with the teacher in the room. And I don't know how long they were there. But at some point, the teacher came out and said to the people, would you guys please get out of this room? Go away. We have enough monks here. We don't need any more. Go away. And then some of them went away, but these two didn't. And then the teacher said, didn't I tell you to leave? Get out. And they didn't. And then the teacher came and threw water on them in the winter. And then this monk, his name's Fushan, the one who saved Soto Zen. He said, we've just traveled a thousand miles to study with you.

[79:25]

You think throwing some cold water on us is going to make us go away? So they're trying to demonstrate their sincerity. And here at Zen Center, we also have Tongadio. People go. They want to go to a practice period here. They sit one day at Tazahara. They sit five days. And so that's a pretty significant demonstration of sincerity. We have not been throwing cold water on them yet. But maybe when Tassajara has a thousand monks and people start coming, we'll say, would you guys go away? And then they won't. And then we'll throw cold water on them. Get out! Anyway, so they don't go. And then the teacher says, if you don't go, I'm going to beat you. And Fusan says, you can beat me to death. I'm here to practice. And then the teacher says, you guys are crazy.

[80:30]

You should practice Zen. So then anyway, the story goes on. If you want, I'll tell you the rest. But basically, this person was very sincere, very sincere. And his sincerity made him a successor to the teacher who threw the water on him. And then after that teacher made him his successor, he met this other teacher, very good teacher, who couldn't find a... who found only one... only found one person who could take care of the teaching, and that person died. And then this person performed this service, which is a pretty big service, because this teaching is a pretty big responsibility, and not... Some people might want to take care of it, but are not yet ready to take care of it. It took him quite a while to find somebody.

[81:31]

He found somebody quite a while after the first teacher died. The successor. Yeah, so this teacher finds a successor, this successor dies, this teacher finds this person who's already a teacher, and then he becomes a successor, and this person finds a successor quite a while after the first teacher has passed away. But just the story is a story of, well, you know, and if we look at the kind of effort we make, sometimes we think, geez, I'm making a lot of effort. Zen's hard. And then we sometimes look at these stories of his ancestors and say, yeah, they had some difficulty too. So maybe it's not so far out that I'm having a hard time. So we don't even know if there was a Bodhidharma. We don't really know if there's a hueka. But in that story there is an issue about, are you sincere?

[82:35]

Would you make an effort comparable to giving your arm away? Some people give their kidneys away, right? because they think it would help people. Some people, I don't know what else we can donate before we're dead, but anyway, people do make big gifts, make big efforts, and there is an issue like that in the bodhisattva path that basically we should work up to being willing to give body parts if they're helpful to people. But also there's a caveat there to be careful, you know, be very careful before you give body parts. Because it's very bad to change your mind in the middle of the transfer. So there's that issue. And so we have this intensive as an expression of of an act of sincerity that you come here and do this program for three weeks.

[83:43]

It's a pretty big effort and if you want to do it, we're here to do it with you. And for some people it's pretty hard. And we allow that difficulty as part of the practice. And some people even use it as a way to tell who is really sincere, but also to help the person find out that they're sincere. Sometimes you don't really understand you're sincere until you make a big effort. Okay, so is that enough for today?

[84:27]

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