Thanks for encouraging us to plant seeds of the Dharma. But my question's a little off topic. I was wondering if you could tell us the place of dreams. A place of dreams. Karma consciousness. Like some dreams are just whatever, leftover thoughts. But then there are other dreams that seem to be important. I feel that all dreams are important. Every dream is a sentient being. For about a decade I went to see a Jungian analyst and he would sometimes say, do you have any dreams?

[01:09]

And I would tell him some dreams that I remembered. Sometimes I would write down... I would write the dreams down sometimes and I would tell him. We would talk about them. But he also said... he kind of said, it doesn't matter too much if you don't remember them. The important point is that you know you're having them. In other words, that you're there when you're having the dreams. And I... When I'm having dreams, I really am... I do enjoy them. I'm... I really enjoy my dreams. I love them. But I love them so much, I don't remember them. And I'm not criticizing when I used to remember them or write them down.

[02:15]

But it's more like, for me now, it's more like, thank you very much for coming. This was a great dream. And now I'm going to go to Zazen. But I think, just like meeting a friend, it's okay to wonder, what is the meaning of this friend? And to discuss, maybe with someone else, what is the meaning of your friend? What is the meaning of what you're thinking in sort of called waking life? I think it's okay to question and investigate your waking karmic consciousness. But dreams are also karmic consciousness, and it's okay to question and investigate them. I think the main thing is that you welcome them and enjoy them and are awake when you're having them. You know that you're there and you're living that world. And I hope that we can become more loving, more compassionate while we're dreaming in our sleep

[03:25]

and that that will transfer to be more loving and compassionate when we're so-called awake. And by being compassionate to our waking dreams, our waking karmic consciousness, that will transfer to being kinder to our sleeping karmic consciousness. But I see all the different phases of consciousness as karmic consciousness And also, if you, excuse me, you said some dreams are more important than others, I think that that's something to be careful of. That opinion that some are more important to each other is something to be kind to, but that's another karmic consciousness, which is judging some people as more important than others. We do sometimes think, oh, this person's more important than that person. We do sometimes think that, and I think we should be kind when we think that way. But don't dwell on thinking some people are more important than others or less important.

[04:33]

Just realize your mind thinks that way sometimes. Like I have told the story of Suzuki Roshi quite a few times that he... This is kind of a long story. Are you ready for it? Yes. He was giving a talk at Tassajara one time and he said... He said, my disciples something or other. I don't remember what he was saying about his disciples, but when he said it, my karmic consciousness went, hmm, I wonder if I'm one of his disciples. So after the talk, I went to him and I said, Roshi, you mentioned your disciples in the talk. Who are your disciples? And he said, I don't like this, but my mind works like this. And then he told this way his mind works, which is kind of like, a little bit like, these kinds of students and those kinds of students.

[05:34]

Our mind does that. And he said, there's two kinds of students at Tassajara. One kind are here for themselves. Another kind are here for others. The ones who are here for others are my disciples. He didn't say the ones that are here for others are better than the ones that are here for themselves. He didn't say that. But even to discriminate among students that way, he kind of didn't like it, but he did. He did it, and he admitted it. And, in fact, the people who are here for others are his disciples, and the other ones are his students, and he loves them, but they're not really doing the practice that he's trying to teach. He's not trying to teach people to be here for themselves, he's trying to teach people to be here for others. And those who are, are carrying on his main work. And the others... He doesn't love the ones who are his disciples more than the ones who are not his disciples.

[06:41]

the disciples aren't more important than the others. However, he does maybe spend a lot more time in more intense training of the disciples, because they're carrying on the work of helping others. So we want to learn to love all the dreams, all the karmic consciousness wholeheartedly, But it's true that some karmic consciousnesses are very wholesome and others are very unwholesome. But we love both of them. Because we have to not dwell in either. If we don't dwell in unwholesome consciousness, unwholesome dreams, they will be disarmed. They won't be harmful if we don't dwell on them. They'll just be nasty karmic consciousness. And compassion will grow there.

[07:46]

And if we have a beautiful, loving karmic consciousness and we dwell on that, that undermines the karmic consciousness. it doesn't promote its life. So the main thing is to love all different dreams, learn to love all different dreams equally, even though we do think, including the dreams, some dreams are more important than others. I would say they're all important. And I would say the most important thing is to love them all. What do you think, Ugo? I think loving them all is a good plan. I think I have a little trouble with you differentiating

[09:00]

the part that you say the disciples are people who think about only are the ones who think about themselves and think about others because I don't do that well I think you're right she does you've got a problem with him not me well you voiced it so I'd like to it came out because I think I'm a perfect combination of both and I think I think about yeah because it's always all about me and then it's also always about others because i i can i can watch my edge when i lean in too far or when i back away but um gee i i just i hope i'm here for all beings but i think i'm kind of selfish yeah yeah No, he didn't say my disciples were people who aren't selfish, who are here to help others.

[10:03]

He didn't say they weren't selfish. Okay, I'm going to reframe this then. I think when I first came to practice, I came for me. Let me just say, you being selfish is not a disciple of Suzuki Roshi. Maybe so. But you being selfish and being here for others, then you're a disciple of him. But just being selfish is not a disciple of Buddha. Well, I understand that. But being selfish, being a normal selfish person, and being devoted to the welfare of others, that is a disciple of Buddha. Okay, as usual, it's confusing. As usual, it's confusing? Well, stay a little longer. Okay. Because maybe this time, clarity will come. Maybe so. Well, I'm looking forward to that clarity. Ah. See, I am looking forward to that clarity. I'm looking over a four-leaf clover. Great. What's the next line?

[11:05]

That I've overlooked before. Thanks. Good. Well, I overlook something before and quite often do, but I'm here. Yes. I'm up here with you. Do you want to try to clarify anything? I want you to try and clarify. I want you to try and clarify something. Well, maybe you could tell me what's not clear. Just all the causes and conditions that make who I am up. Oh. Yeah. Well, the revelation of that will come to you when you realize that selfishness and compassion are vast emptiness. Oh, that's a good answer. I can stop on that really good answer. Really good. You heard her. She said it was a good answer. What do you mean when you use the term wholesome karmic action?

[12:22]

Wholesome action, wholesome karma is karma which has beneficial results. And what does beneficial mean? Well, it means for the person, for a person, that the person finds it beneficial. That is what the person, you know, aspires to in life. For example, a person might, a lot of people would find peace and ease and harmony and kindness and flexibility and fearlessness. They find those things. Having those kinds of forms of life they would call beneficial. Someone else might have some other story, but even if somebody says something else is beneficial, if they study karmic causation, I think that everybody's story of benefit starts to converge on the happiness and welfare of all beings.

[13:43]

Somebody might think it's beneficial at some point of evolution, beneficial that somebody else was hurt. It's possible that they would be so confused as to think that some benefit that someone would be harmed or discouraged or distracted. Maybe because that relates to some other thing that they think would be beneficial like getting rich. So you see a lot of people are trying to distract people from self-study so they'll buy stuff. Don't look at yourself when you're buying a car. Listen to me. So some people do seem that that seems to be what they want. But if they keep reflecting on that, their consciousness will evolve positively. I believe and I have heard And also, if you use this definition of wholesome, you realize that an action doesn't in itself have the quality of wholesomeness because it depends on its result, its consequence, which we don't know yet.

[14:56]

So we try to perform wholesome actions, good actions, but we know while we're performing them that, I should say, we don't necessarily know, but we come to understand as we practice that what we're doing can't be, what do you call it, definitively established as good as we do it because we have to be open to the consequences. And that keeps making us question whether it was good, but the point is that's what we're looking at. We're looking at, is it good? And again, I would say that looking to see if it's good promotes good. And not paying attention to our consciousness tends to sponsor the proliferation of unwholesomeness because unwholesomeness grows in unconsciousness. and wholesomeness grows in consciousness of an investigation of the karmic quality as we understand so far.

[16:01]

And then we keep studying and learning more about what is actually wholesome. But there's some indeterminacy here. some ungraspability of what is good because good doesn't have an inherent graspable nature. And yet some things, according to the tradition, some things do have good results and those are the things we're trying to learn to practice in the midst of our diluted karmic consciousness. You can just come up. I have noticed that

[17:19]

in the presence of stillness, or I call it my stillness, when I am absolutely still, love and compassion is natural. It just comes with that. And then my question is, and then I cannot connect the love and compassion from being compassionate other than practicing the natural state of being to let the compassionate and the love just be and come. So I want to go the other way around, and it looks like I cannot do it. I cannot be compassionate. Is that clear, the question? I don't know if it's clear, but what I heard was when you're... present to stillness, that compassion seems to flow naturally.

[18:22]

Absolutely. I would even say that practicing stillness is a fundamental aspect of compassion. And then I heard you say maybe that you can't be compassionate? Yeah. So I would say that, like we were talking the other day, that the dynamic relationship between good action or good works and grace. When you can do good works, that's grace functioning. So when you're still, that's not something you can do. You can't do stillness. And yet when you're still, when you're practicing stillness, that's good. That's good works. But it's also grace. Stillness is given to us. And when we practice it, we're practicing what has been given to us. And the same compassion is given to us. And when we practice it, we're practicing what we've been given.

[19:24]

So we have our samadhi, our concentration in this school is receiving and giving. We receive the practice and we give the practice. But we don't really do the practice. It's given to us and It's happening. And we're with it. So I can't really make myself still. I mean, I can think I can, but really stillness is already here. Stillness is unconstructed. It's unfabricated. Because, in fact, you already are still. In each moment you are who you are. And you don't make yourself be who you are. But you being you is stillness. For you to be you is stillness, and so you always are you, so stillness is always here. It's not made. Just like you being you is not constructed. That unconstructedness and stillness is also grace.

[20:27]

So it's a grace which we need to practice in order to realize it. And practicing it realizes grace. So there is really no no doing in becoming kind or... I mean, it doesn't... There's no doing, but there is a karmic consciousness that might be doing something. There might be somebody who's dreaming of doing something. In fact, there's innumerable beings who are dreaming of doing things in this unconstructed stillness. So when you have a consciousness that's dreaming of doing something, being still with that is not doing something. But somebody thinks there is a busy one, right? So there's a busy one in the context in compassion, there's a busy one within the un-busy one. And the un-busy one is opening to the busy ones.

[21:30]

The unbusy one is still with the busy ones. The unbusy one is loving the busy ones. And the busy ones being themselves is in fact stillness. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Yes, I see that. Thank you. You're welcome. So the stillness is not a doing, so it's not a karma? Right. Stillness is unconstructed. The kind of stillness that we're trying to learn here is unconstructed stillness. It's an unconstructed stillness and trying to realize the unconstructedness of all the constructed stuff in the stillness too. And the constructed stuff is karmic.

[22:33]

Yeah. Yeah. Karma is constructing universes, which is a small point I was going to bring up this morning but didn't. Just a small point. So in opening, in realizing stillness, is realizing stillness a doing and a karma? No. So the consciousness of stillness is not a karmic consciousness? Consciousness of stillness is a karmic consciousness, yeah. Ah, but realizing it is not a karmic consciousness. Not a consciousness. Right. Realization is that which can be met with recognition is not realization itself. So recognizing realization is a karmic consciousness. Or it could even be, I don't know, some other special consciousness, but I don't really care. The thing that's realization is for a karmic consciousness to be a karmic consciousness, which is stillness. That's realization.

[23:34]

So in those times when there's an awareness of stillness, a stillness consciousness of some kind, it's still a karmic consciousness that's tuning into the existing stillness. You've got this practice, right? You've got this practice of stillness, which is realization. But the practice is not looking at the realization. The practice isn't looking at the stillness. The practice is the practice of stillness. And that's also the realization. And the realization isn't looking at the practice of stillness either. However, to look and see the practice and realization, that's not practice or realization. That's a karmic consciousness, which might be handy. Like, from a karmic consciousness you can point out to people, look over there, there's the practice realization. But what you're pointing to is not it, but it sometimes helps people to point at it, even though you've just actually invited them into a deluded consciousness that's pointing at something that it doesn't reach.

[24:49]

So the deluded consciousness doesn't reach this realization, but it can talk about it. So in the moment of conversation or in the moment of stillness in zazen, physical stillness in zazen, or active activity in conversation, in the effort to find stillness, mental, not just physical, that effort is karmic, and the opening to it is karmic, and if it's realized and observed as realized, it's karmic. There's an opening to it which is not karmic. Oh, okay, that's what I was trying to find out. Okay, so the instruction to open to it is karmic, but the actual opening to it is not. And the attempt to practice it is karmic, but the actual realization of opening is not karmic. And then the observation of that realization is again karmic. Yeah. Okay. Thank you very much. I think that clarifies my question. So we have the first story in the Book of Serenity, which is a collection of Zen teachings and stories.

[26:00]

The Buddha comes and sits on the seat, just sits there still. And Manjushri says, I don't know if these people... Clearly observed, the Dharma of the Dharma King is thus. So Manjushri, talking to the karmic consciousnesses of the other people, gets them to look at the Buddha and realize that the Buddha is teaching them. By just being... But nothing can be done about Manjushri's leaking. In this case we couldn't do anything about it. Manjushri had to get involved in karmic consciousness because she felt like people were missing the teaching. The teaching of what? The teaching of the Buddha just being Buddha and indicating, my teaching is for you to be you. So then Manjushri kind of sins

[27:06]

in order to help the people who didn't get the teaching. So some of the people maybe got it, but the ones who didn't, Manjushri says, comes into karmic consciousness and talks to them in karmic consciousness to direct their attention. And then they look at it, and then they go, probably, what? And then they go, and then they open to it, and then they receive the teaching. But somebody had to come into karmic consciousness to touch their karmic consciousness, to open their karmic consciousness to this boring teaching of somebody just being himself. Don't just be Buddha, tell us something. Well, what I'm telling you is that what I want to teach you is be yourself. Without saying that, by just showing you being me. And some people got it and some people didn't and the ones who didn't, Manjushri comes in and into karmic consciousness and talks to them in karmic consciousness.

[28:11]

We say it descends into the weeds and the grasses in order to get people to see the teaching. Was that real clear? Any questions about that? It's a big one. And we do that, you know, we do that all the time. We come into karmic consciousness to interact with other karmic consciousnesses, to encourage each other to open to what? Open to stillness, to open to immediate realization. So we say it is immediate realization, unconstructedness and stillness. And the practice can't look at the realization because the practice is the realization.

[29:17]

And the realization can't look at the practice because the realization is the practice. However, karmic consciousness can recognize various things, like practice and realization. But that's not the way practice and realization are. That's one of their weak points, is they can't know each other because they're the same thing. Just like, again, a dance doesn't get to know the dance, it just gets to be the dance. Poor thing. Everybody else can watch and know the dance, recognize it. But what they're looking at is not the dance, even though it's very wonderful for them to see. And if you ever see practice walking around, it's really great to see. If you see realization, it's wonderful. Those are like wonderful karmic consciousnesses. But practice doesn't see realization, and realization doesn't see practice.

[30:24]

However, there is the practice of coming into karmic consciousness and then seeing realization, and then saying, people, it's over there. And then after we find it, we open to it and jump into the actuality of it and can't see it anymore. And then the next moment, You can see the dust, or you can experience the dust. the unique breeze of reality.

[31:58]

Can you see it? Please take care of all sentient beings.

[32:59]

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