I request that we experiment with trying another way of reciting or chanting what we just chanted. And I thought, how would that be? What might be another way? We vow with all beings. This is about slower, right? There's a little feeling of, yeah, I think it's a long thing, and if we did it like that, it would take much longer. But I feel a little bit like we love this vow very much, and yet we're kind of rushing through it. So listen to this, something like this. We vow with all beings from this life on throughout countless lives to hear the true Dharma, that upon hearing it no doubt will arise in us, nor will we lack in faith.

[01:16]

Could we try that a little bit? Do you remember that part? The way we were doing it before had the virtue of having quite a bit of energy. But I felt it lacked a kind of warmth or something. It was a little bit rushed. Has anybody had that feeling it was rushed? Only three people? And to do it this way would make it much longer and maybe more challenging to be energetic.

[02:18]

you know, for such a long effort. But maybe next time we do it, I might ask us to try to do it that way. A little bit, what's the word? I don't want to say slower exactly, but, huh? Deliberative, I don't know, spacious, loving, maybe more loving and warm feeling. I wasn't really trying to make it slower. I was trying to give it more time, a little bit more presence for each word and also emphasize the carrying through of the voice, of the breath. It was getting a little bit on the side of reading it rather than chanting it, I felt. Anyway, maybe if I remember next time we could try that way. So here's this quote in Chinese, sentient beings, sentient beings' nature, namely Bodhi.

[03:37]

And now I'm just going to leave the characters there for sentient being. The sentient being. I can't see anything. Sentient being. So there's a proposal that sentient beings, all they have is... KC, Karmic Consciousness. Can you see KC? Is that easier to see? Can you see it, Linda?

[04:41]

Linda? And so karmic consciousness is the normal consciousness for a sentient being. And so according to certain analysis of conscious experience, within a given moment of consciousness there is what might be called basic awareness. Like there's awareness of some phenomena. There's some subject which knows some object. It could be a color, a sound, a smell, an idea. It could be a feeling of pain or pleasure. It could be some complex idea, but basically there's an awareness that something is present.

[05:51]

There's the awareness of the presence of some phenomenon, and that awareness is not in a sense, it's not karmic. It's just awareness. But along with that awareness, many other, you could either say many other mental factors or associated phenomena which can be known but are not in a sense known at this time but just arise with the basic awareness. For example, there is... one of the most basic things that arises with consciousness, with basic awareness, is feeling. And in this case, feeling means, also sometimes translated as sensation, feeling means the evaluation, it's a mental phenomenon, and it's the evaluation of what's going on as painful, pleasurable, or neutral.

[07:10]

And that kind of evaluative process comes along with the awareness of something. And also what comes along with it is that the mind is actually, that the awareness is focused on that particular phenomena of which we have a feeling. So the mind is focused on it. Also the mind, in a sense, seems to choose to pay attention to that as opposed to other things. And also the mind is, in some sense, in the process of choosing, the mind is also applied to this, to the object. And those are things which kind of always go on when awareness is, when there's awareness of something.

[08:13]

So those are, those describe part of the function, the associated functions that arise with being aware of something. And they're generally understood to be and taught to be. omnipresent functions. But they're not the same as the basic awareness. I just thought of like if I shake hands with you and I feel your hand the feeling of the hand is not the same as that I extend my hand to touch you. So there's all these operations or functions of mind that are almost always there whenever mind knows something. Then there's other functions which sometimes are there. For example, greed, confusion and hatred can be present with the knowing of a mysterious truck, a mysterious bus going in and out of the driveway.

[09:26]

And different people might have different feelings about this bus. Some people may feel confusion about the bus. Some people may hate the bus. Some people may be attached to the bus and wish that more buses would come. These are things which may arise with this basic awareness of the bus. Some people may wish to assist the bus and be devoted to the bus. Some people may wish the bus well. Some people at the same time may have a feeling that a feeling of self-respect, just happen to have a feeling of self-respect, and have a feeling that they would like to act decorously in the community. Some people may feel not only a feeling of self-respect but would be uneasy with acting in a way that didn't accord with that self-respect and would feel uneasy in acting in ways that would disturb the sense of decorum in the community.

[10:40]

And some other people might know about decorum but don't care about it. Or maybe know about what self-respect would be like, but they don't really have it and they don't care. These are mental factors which we'd even call kinds of awareness which may or may not accompany the basic awareness. And some people may have the mental function of experiencing and engaging with a vow. So you're aware of the colored blue or you're aware of a bus and you also have within you a living vow which you're not aware of exactly when you're looking at the vehicle but it's actually there as a consequence of having made the vow in the past.

[11:42]

There may be a living commitment to practicing precepts of compassion that's actually like there in your mind which you can possibly discover if someone asked you about it. Someone says, is there a vow within you to practice the precept of compassion and is it possible to look and find the object now shifts from a color or something to actually seeing an intention in your mind to practice some precepts. Now that's the object of the consciousness. which again you'd have feelings about or confusion about or not. Now, I'm happy to go give you endless examples of this and discuss this situation in which all these mental factors arise with consciousness moment by moment. But that's just a little introduction to say what I want to say now is that the overall pattern

[12:47]

of such consciousnesses, which are a normal kind of consciousness, namely awareness with these mental factors, the overall pattern is called, in Sanskrit, chetana. And in Chinese they use the character like this, which is a pattern of a rice field over mind. And it's kind of a nice choice of words because it's got a pattern, you know. It's got a pattern in it and connected to awareness. So sometimes you could read it as the pattern of the awareness or the pattern of the consciousness. And that is the definition of the Buddha's definition of karma.

[13:50]

And it, I didn't mention earlier, but it is also an omnipresent mental factor. So whatever pattern is there, the pattern is there. And this also can be translated as thinking. Thinking. It's the overall pattern of consciousness, but it could be translated as thinking. It's usually translated, I think, as intention or volition or will. So the pattern of mental factors associated with a moment of awareness, that's the intention of the moment. That's the, in some cases, that's the vow of the moment. If the pattern was such that it looked like there was ideas of doing certain things and the mental factors were aligned in accord with that idea,

[15:01]

and then there was in the mind a willful commitment to practice this in the future, not just that right now that's what's going on, but I wish to practice the future, then we might call it a vow or an intention which is a candidate to be a vow. So karmic consciousness is characterized by this omnipresent factor of thinking, intending, volition, will, and you could even say discursive thought. But let's just, yeah, discursive thought. And also another translation of this word in Sanskrit, cetana, is synergy, the synergy of the consciousness, the synergy of all the mental factors. So karmic consciousness, normal karmic consciousness is not just volition.

[16:05]

It's just that the overall pattern of it is the karma of it. And karmic consciousness does have overall patterns each moment. And sometimes the pattern looks, to those who are examining it, the meditator who's examining the karmic consciousness, the pattern looks skillful or wholesome. And sometimes it looks less skillful or less wholesome. And also generally, as I've said before, the consciousnesses which are not even being looked at might be quite unwholesome. And actually for wholesome consciousnesses, they're often consciousnesses which have mindfulness. Mindfulness is another mental factor that can be here. Wholesome consciousnesses are also consciousnesses which have mindfulness.

[17:10]

In other words, there is actually a mindfulness, if not of the intention, at least of something. So, positive intentions And then sometimes positive intentions associated with expressing in words and postures the positive intention also are present in a karmic consciousness. And also what can be present in karmic consciousness is lots of concepts or ideas of teachings which some people have, which some beings inherit from past karmic consciousnesses of listening to and reading the teachings. So if you do the karma of listening to teachings, of reading the teachings, of writing the teachings, of thinking the teachings, you do that a lot, one of the consequences of that is that those teachings arise in the karmic consciousness and are part of the mix.

[18:15]

And if you make vows, according to this tradition, if you make vows if a karmic consciousness has a vow made in it, that vow has a powerful shaping influence on later karmic consciousnesses. All karmic consciousnesses affect future karmic consciousnesses and certain vows because of the energy put into them and the ceremonial effect support around the action, they have a very powerful shaping influence on future karmic consciousnesses. So some karmic consciousnesses arise with a strong shape in, for example, a compassionate direction And some even have a strong shape in a cruel direction. Some people vow to do something cruel.

[19:20]

And that can have a similar shaping effect. And I hesitate to say this, but I think I'm going to, that the worlds that beings live in, according to this teaching, the worlds that you live in and I live in, and the worlds that other people live in, are the result, are the consequence of karmic consciousnesses. The worlds we live in are the result of the life of sentient beings. So the world I live in is not just the result of my background karmic consciousnesses, but also yours. And the world where we feel, as I mentioned before, some similarity, we seem to be living in similar worlds, are the worlds where our background karma, our historical lineage of karma is similar.

[20:33]

And also, yeah, similar. So part of the theory of this study of karma would be that attention to karmic consciousness tends to produce worlds where the practice of compassion is more salient and fully realized. And even, not only is the practice of compassion promoted by meditating on karmic consciousness, but the world, all the other ways of seeing the world, peaceful worlds also start to manifest in association with this practice of compassion. And also what happens as a result of studying karmic consciousness is more and more willingness to study karmic consciousness more and more fully with the gradual revelation that karmic consciousness is actually not karmic consciousness.

[21:54]

Or in other words, that karmic consciousness is insubstantial. And therefore, the worlds we live in allow unlimited possibilities of release, of salvation, without changing the world at all. And that this practice of studying karmic consciousness can also be transmitted to other karmic consciousnesses so that they can also practice it and join in world creation and cultivation of practice in the current world and doing, realizing wonderful things in the current world with all those problems. Because, and this is a little bit hard to say, but some people are not studying their karmic consciousnesses

[23:01]

and their karmic consciousness are full of troubling mental factors and very little visible sign that we can find of compassion for themselves or others. And those karmic consciousness are contributing to the creation of worlds of trouble. So we live together And we ourselves sometimes are creating worlds that are very troubled, and we're sometimes contributing to possible a world of peace and compassion. So it seems to me fairly likely that we're going to continue to have worlds with quite a bit of difficulty in them for the foreseeable future. But we don't have to wait to develop compassion in these worlds and have liberation in these worlds even while they're quite troublesome.

[24:08]

We don't have to wait for them to look peaceful in order to promote peace and realize peace to some extent even in the midst of of war. So the very advanced practitioner like the Buddha can be peaceful in the face of an army charging at him. But he doesn't make the army evaporate. He just is peaceful with it. And sometimes the army says, okay, we'll go back home. We'll call off the war. You're so peaceful. But then sometimes they say, no, let's have the war anyway. He's a nice guy, but obviously fearless and loving towards us and his own people. But yeah, I think we should go ahead with this war. And then they do, and the Buddha loves them and teaches them after they conquer his country. But the Buddha actually sees that this is a total illusion, this world of suffering.

[25:19]

It cannot actually be found the way it appears. It appears as though it's substantially there, and it's not. And that allows the Buddha to work within the world as it appears now for whoever it appears that way and teach people how to deal with the world they're in. But back now to studying karmic consciousness after, I think what I just said was a high recommendation for it, because karmic consciousness makes worlds, and also studying it makes the possibility of compassion in whatever world has been created by all of us. So my world is created by my karmic consciousness, but not by my karmic consciousness alone. It's created by the totality of our life together.

[26:21]

But in particular, I have my job to watch my karmic consciousness. It may not be clear But I just would propose to you the possibility that karmic consciousness and the delusions that live in karmic consciousness as an intimate relationship and a dynamic relationship with enlightenment. that, as I said before, it may not be surprising to you that delusion would be rooted in karmic consciousness. Delusion is rooted in karmic consciousness, which is defined by its karmic definition is its overall pattern, thinking, its intention.

[27:26]

But also enlightenment is also rooted in karmic consciousness. And delusion is sort of, it's dressed in, or you could even say adorned with, karmic consciousness. That probably makes sense, right? If you're deluded, the particular outfit you've got on for your delusion is your current karmic consciousness. Your current story of what's going on is the adornment of our delusion. But enlightenment also is adorned by karmic consciousness. Enlightenment is naked and it's kind of invisible. aside from its karmic clothing.

[28:31]

So both enlightenment and delusion are rooted in this karmic consciousness. So karmic consciousness is like, as I said, the life force of ultimate truth. It's the playing field of enlightenment and delusion. So having faith that this is what we should be studying is being proposed. the realization of truth is adorned by karmic consciousness. So that means we can realize the truth but it comes with some of the obscurations of karmic consciousness. And also For us, and maybe for the whole universe, there's no way to realize the truth of the universe but through karmic consciousness. But karmic consciousness has limits. So the knowing of the truth through karmic consciousness comes with some limits on the knowing of the truth.

[29:41]

I wanted to also announce that I wish to, for the remainder of the retreat, start to look at a teaching which is offered in two salient places in the teachings of the ancestor Dogen. One is in the Fukanzazengi, where it says, settle into a steady, unmoving or unmovable sitting position. Think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Non-thinking. This is the essential art of zazen. I would like to go into that with you for the rest of the retreat, retreat, retreat, retreat.

[30:52]

And, yeah. But before we get into that, which I will maybe try to point out how I think it's related to what I've been discussing with you up till now, partly because of that word thinking, which is the definition of karma consciousness. So I will hope to bring our discussions of karmic consciousness into the discussions of that teaching. and also the discussion of stillness into that teaching of practicing stillness. Before I do that though, do you have any requests or feedback that you care to offer? Did you mention that there is a basic awareness that is not karmic?

[32:17]

By itself it's not karmic, no. In other words, by itself it's not thinking. By itself it has no intention. So it's just like, what is it, do you feel the heat? Yes. Do you feel the cold? Yes. I mean, you can feel it. But you don't have any intention about it. And you don't even have the intention. I should say, in that awareness, there's no mention of an intention towards this sensation. But you mentioned also that this awareness recognizes the bus, or did I hear that wrong, this basic awareness, or does it recognize the karmic consciousness making a bus out of a phenomena? There could be awareness of karmic consciousness. So a lot of the time this basic awareness is turned towards the mental factors.

[33:22]

But again, the basic awareness is karmic consciousness because it cannot be dissociated from the definition of karma. So it is karmic consciousness, but the basic knowing itself is not karmic. But it's affected By karma. Which knowing is not karmic. What did you say? The basic knowing itself is not karmic. Right. But the basic knowing is touched by the, and modified by whatever karma is there, by whatever pattern is there. But the basic function of knowing itself, although it's touched by the other mental factors, the knowing is not intentional. What came to my mind at this place is one of the scriptures where I think Dogen says, like, fish recognize water as a... A palace.

[34:36]

A palace, right. So the basic awareness would not distinguish between water or palace. It just recognizes the basic awareness of the fish. Or is it jewels? I think fish do the jewels, and the gods think it's palace. But anyway, the fish do not think the water is moving. He says, if you would tell fish that the water is moving, they would be shocked. Just like if redwood trees told us that Green Gulch was moving, we'd be shocked. I mean, they said, this place is like really flowing. We'd go, whoa. So now we're getting ready to open to the perspective of redwood trees now, right? With an El Nino coming. we're opening to the possibility of a huge flow, right? Because usually we don't think this place is flowing. And fish don't think the water is flowing. But we look at the water, we think it's flowing.

[35:37]

So that's the world that their karmic consciousness makes for them. We and the fish both agree that there's water. We make the world of water together. But within the world of water we have sub-worlds that are different because of our different karma. And the basic awareness of the fish and the human looking at water is simply, that is the question, that the human recognize their illusion of water and the fish recognize their illusion of a pellet. It could be that, yeah. Or both the fish and the human, before they see this more elaborate version of what water is, they both sense the moisture maybe. Yeah, I think that's where I was coming from.

[36:40]

Is there like, there's sometimes called something like a primary perception or so? Well, there's, yeah, there's what do you call it, direct perception? Direct perception. Indirect perception. And would that be? But you can have direct perception. For example, you can directly perceive your father, which is not exactly a color. In other words, you can sense that that person is your father and the other person isn't. without any kind of conceptual mediation. But still there's karmic consciousness there in both cases. Even in direct perception there's karmic consciousness. It's just that in direct perception there's no mediation. The concepts you have are not mediating between the awareness and the object known. And in conceptual cognition you bring the concept in between the awareness and the object and consider the object to be the concept. But in both cases they're karmic consciousness.

[37:42]

And in both cases the basic awareness is not really karmic, it's just awareness. You could say, and its characteristic is that it's clear and bright. So they say clear light. So the basic nature of this awareness is clear light, which sounds pretty good. But this clear light arises with a murky complex pattern, which are intimate, these two. But even the murky pattern can give instructions to study itself, which it received somehow from those who have studied in the past. And this clear light has a chance then to be realized together with the study of the murky, the murky aspect of the pattern of consciousness, the complex, potentially conflicting mental factors that arise with this clear light of consciousness.

[38:49]

And there's clear light in both direct perception and indirect perception. Clear light of just basic, this basic thing of awareness, this great mystery of knowing. But it comes with this karmic consciousness. It comes with this karmic pattern which makes it a karmic consciousness in sentient beings. are working with this all the time, with more or less skill and education about how to do that. I think my question was answered. I had the feeling that basic awareness is sort of presented as a direct perception, but then it would be karmic. And so basic awareness is not a direct perception. Basic awareness can be direct perception. It can be basic awareness of direct perception.

[39:52]

No, no. The basic awareness could be the basic awareness of, when you have direct perception, which you have all the time actually, direct perceptions occur incalculable number of times during a day. And also, indirect or conceptual cognitions also occur many times, but not as many, but so many that you also could never count them. So those are happening, and both of them have this basic clear light consciousness. And both of them are karmic consciousnesses by their associated factors. So direct perception is not free of karmic consciousness. And therefore direct perception can still see things as though they were out there, existing on their own, and then also make up a story about it.

[40:53]

Like, it's my father, and he's out there separate from me. And accurately, yeah, that is your father. in direct perception and also in conceptual cognitive, but in direct perception you don't say, that's my father. It's just that there's ways of finding out that you correctly ascertained that it was your father. Usually people do not ascertain the direct perception of their father. They only ascertain the indirect cognition of their father. But in fact you do have a cognition of your father when you see him, and you can test people and yourself sometimes to find out that you correctly saw that it was, even if you didn't ascertain it. But again, in both cases there's this clear awareness, and in both cases the clear awareness lives in association with this karmic pattern which makes the awareness unclear. So the clear awareness isn't just the same as the suchness of the thing?

[41:55]

Did you say is clear awareness the same as the suchness thing? No. It's the suchness of the direct perception or the suchness of the indirect perception. I think suchness is more about how enlightenment is intimate with delusions. Suchness is more about the way karmic consciousness can coexist with enlightenment. and how enlightenment can, it's the way things are such that enlightenment can be conveyed to people through karmic consciousness. And people in karmic consciousness who have almost no contact with enlightenment can receive instructions because of this intimacy of delusion and enlightenment. And both of these, delusion and enlightenment, equally,

[43:02]

are rooted in karmic consciousness, and also both falsehood and truth are rooted in karmic consciousness, because karmic consciousness is the life of ultimate truth. So suchness Yeah, suchness is not just ultimate truth, it's also the way ultimate truth functions in relationship to relative truth. And that is not the same as the light, what you call the light of perception, for example? It's not the same as the clear light of consciousness? Yes. No, it's not the same. The clear light of consciousness, however, is a resource for realizing suchness. But also delusion is a resource for realizing suchness.

[44:05]

Because delusion and suchness coexist. You don't have any floating clear lights. They're associated with karmic factors or the things that make the clear light into karmic consciousness. But they're not exactly the same. Wouldn't that be also exactly true for suchness, what you just said? Tell me what's true of suchness? that they are not exactly the same of the thing, but they are always intimately related with it. Well, I think that is suchness. Yeah, and didn't you just describe that as the light of the basic awareness? I don't know if I did. Okay. I just said that the light of basic awareness is an inseparable part of the realization of suchness.

[45:11]

But also karmic consciousness, if the clear light of consciousness could realize suchness by itself, well, you know, congratulations. But what about karmic consciousness? Did that get left out? Then you have all the suffering beings who are like left out. But anyway, it doesn't work that way because this clear light is totally intimate with the common consciousness. So if one realizes the truth, the other has to. Even though the common consciousness doesn't reach, the deluded consciousness doesn't reach the realization of dharma, the realization dharma has to reach the karmic consciousness. And the clear light of consciousness is part of that process because that's inseparable from karmic consciousness. So karmic consciousness is there all the time and the clear light is there all the time.

[46:13]

They're working together. Does that make sense? Everything what you said at the end now makes sense, but what does not for me make sense is the distinction between the suchness and the clear light. Yeah, the suchness includes not just the clear light. So I wouldn't say there is a suchness of the clear light, and the suchness of the clear light is that it doesn't exist independent of obscuration. Can you say that again? The suchness of the clear light is that it doesn't exist independent of obscuration. In other words, the way it really is is it doesn't exist by itself as clear light.

[47:15]

existing as clear light by itself, it would be substantially clear light, independently existing. That's not suchness. That's also not clear. That's why I thought that is not clear light either. Clear light doesn't exist independently by itself. Yeah, which means that clear light is not really clear light because it's, you know, it's so close to unclearness. Is there another synonym, clear light? A synonym, basic awareness. Consciousness. The basic description of consciousness is basically clear light. That's the definition of consciousness. Okay. Yeah, there's a distinction. We don't describe usually karmic consciousness as clear light.

[48:31]

We describe it as unclear and pretty much boundless. And also we just happen to throw in that there's no fundamental there to the unclearness even. So then we're having a consciousness that's not karmic? And we have a consciousness that's not karmic consciousness? No, we don't because we have a consciousness which is associated with karmic consciousness. So that makes it a karmic consciousness. The pattern of mental factors, each one of those you could call consciousness. But anyway, the whole pattern, because it's inseparable from basic awareness, which is defined as translucent and bright, You don't have it floating separate for sentient beings. And the fact, so again, so just the simple thing of emptiness is that the clear light of basic consciousness is empty of clear light of basic consciousness.

[49:46]

It doesn't have that, you know, That's his characteristic, but you can't find anything like that. And suchness maybe brings in more how it is that it's that way, by being involved with the world of karmic consciousness. Is that enough for you? I'll leave it there. That's enough for today, especially for all of us. Thank you. So, karmic consciousness is doubtless unclear and has no fundamental to rely on. And then when you talk about basic awareness... I like that it has no fundamental to rely on because, you know, it could have kind of a fundamental. It's just that it couldn't rely on it. It's not a real fundamental. So what my mind is doing when you talk about basic awareness is it's trying very hard to turn that into a fundamental to rely on.

[50:51]

Karmic consciousnesses do that. So you just reported on the activity of your karmic consciousness, thank you. Which you maybe could do that report because you looked and saw such a thing. So, I don't even have a thought construction about how, I guess, how it could not be relied upon. I don't have that concept operating. Well, I think rely on means rely on in order to realize peace. Relying on it will not bring you peace. Relying on studying it, however, will bring you peace. I mean basic awareness. Is basic awareness something I could rely on.

[51:54]

Oh, is basic awareness something you rely on? No. Why not? Because it's karmic consciousness. I want to rely on it. You want to rely on it? Yeah. You want to rely on karmic consciousness? No, I want to rely on basic awareness. Oh, okay. Well, I hear you. Tough, huh? Tough? No, not tough. Well, tough to stay riding that horse. Yeah. That's tough. It's a tough ride to have that particular karmic horse. Yeah. So can you help me dismount? No, I want to help you ride. Really? Yeah. Okay. I mean, your karmic wish is, I think it's a lot more, what do you call it, I don't know, sweet than some other karmic consciousnesses. So it's a perfectly good horse. It's a little slippier than some of the more coarse ones. So how to ride it? That's the thing, how to ride it. How?

[52:57]

Well, with your whole body, give yourself completely to riding it, moment by moment, without moving. Ride without moving. So just sit in that desire to make it something to rely on. Yeah, sit still in that desire to make this kind of neat-sounding facility into something you can rely on. Clear light sounds like that'd be a nice thing to rely on. Yeah, when people use it, I think a lot of people think, well, that sounds really good. And then people even sit there and not only talk about it but say good things about it. No problem. And then they make karmic consciousnesses, you know, yearn for it because of the nice description. However, this is just another example of advertising which distracts people from self-study.

[53:59]

So when you talk about some wonderful thing in the world, including the Buddhist teaching world, we have to be careful not to distract people from studying the wish to get those things you talked about. So if you can talk about something interesting without distracting people from looking at their interest in it, fine. But be careful if you talk about something interesting like studying karmic consciousness to distract people from studying karmic consciousness. Or now I mentioned this basic awareness and now, hey, that's something new and neat to get a hold of and rely on. That's karmic consciousness again, so please take care of that wonderful horse. I could have just thrown this in with the original conversation.

[55:03]

Could you speak up, please, for people? Yes, the original conversation about basic awareness. You can hear him okay? This is coming in on your first conversation on basic awareness, and of course you're talking about suchness. My question is, and this is not a word I hear in this tradition much, but how this kind of awareness can show how you would relate what's going on there with what you're saying about awareness this morning. I think there's two versions of Kensho. One seems to be that you recognize, you know, you see the nature. Like, I wrote sentient beings' nature, so Kensho means see nature.

[56:05]

So some people understand Kensho as like seeing that the nature of sentient beings is itself bodhi, for example. The kind of recognition of that, which is a kind of, could be kind of, a wonderful, a wonderful karmic consciousness. That is a karmic consciousness. I would say so, yeah. The other way of seeing the nature is to plunge into being a sentient being and being enlightenment. So it's kencho in the sense that you are practicing being a sentient being, which means you're practicing enlightenment, but you're not recognizing, you're not looking at your practice of enlightenment. And that's, I would say, the way that's more central to what's called sometimes Soto Zen.

[57:10]

But we don't want to exclude this kind of recognition of this teaching in a very meaningful and encouraging way. But there seems to be, although some people use the word Kenjo, I think what they're talking about is what do you call it, enlightenment in the close of karmic consciousness as recognizing the Dharma, rather than enlightenment in the close of the practice. Right. Which would also be called Kensho, but usually people don't use the word Kensho for that. Usually they would use the word realization for that. And then they say realization practice. Practice realization rather than realizing the truth. practicing the truth, embodying it rather than recognizing it, and then sometimes even saying, this is not something that you recognize, it's not a perception. But some people say it is a perception. So some people would say khencho is a perception, and other people might, instead of arguing about what khencho means, they just don't even use the word and just say, practice realization.

[58:23]

And sometimes they say realization, but then they mention that the realization is not separate from the practice of realization. In regard to kinsho as recognition or perception, which you say karmic consciousness is involved in that, it seems to me that kinsho, there's a qualitative difference I don't know, I'm not sure why such a big deal would be made out of it. There were not a qualitative difference between that and the kind of karmic consciousness that we're accustomed to. I'm aware there's a lot of different kinds of karma. You could say that there's a qualitative difference between kensho and karmic consciousness if we're used to. That's one way to put it. Another way to put it is that given karmic consciousness, karmic consciousness can be the place where insights occur. And when those insights occur, you could say, oh, that's Kensho.

[59:29]

But that kind of karmic consciousness seems different than some previous karmic consciousnesses. So, for example, you're studying something and suddenly you have a new understanding of it, which you check out and seems to be correct, but you actually changed and had some experience which you never had before of something. And this is like a new karmic consciousness that you never had before. And it still seems to be like your understanding of something has changed a lot. So to say that that's a different kind of karmic consciousness, or even not a karmic consciousness, you could say that, but I think it's a karmic consciousness of a different type, namely one that's had an insight. And the karmic consciousnesses can have insights about many things, and the insight could be seen as oh, I understand that completely different now. And I'm really happy about this new understanding.

[60:31]

It feels more authentic. And that's one level of insight. And the next level of insight is reflecting on the previous insight in karmic consciousness. You come to a new insight, which in a way, or not just one, but many new insights. based on, not rejecting the first one, but based on the previous one, new ones which could contradict the previous one, but still leave the previous one as authentic and as the basis for your future insights. And these insights, you can have many insights based on reflecting on the original insight. But still there's some sense of, I think, understanding this thing. And the third phase of insight within karmic consciousness is that the karmic consciousness is inseparable from the insight.

[61:31]

that the way of taking care of it is the same as taking care of the insight. And so the way of practice and insight become more unified. The karmic consciousness becomes the insight. The practice becomes the insight, is the insight. So, karmic consciousness never takes a break, it seems like. Well, we don't know. But in the realm of karmic consciousness, it can't take a break. But the realm of karmic consciousness isn't all that's going on in the universe. It's just the living part. I guess my question is, are we ever penetrated by a reality that is unmediated through karmic consciousness?

[62:36]

Yeah, we are all the time, like gamma rays. And it's like, thanks, I'm happy to hear it. But sometimes the reality penetrates us in such a way that it's a catalyst for transformation. Right. And is that unmediated then? You can have that unmediated penetration and then can lead to transformation. Well, the transformation is the mediation. You want your karmic consciousness to be a mediator because it'll get transformed in the mediation process. If the reality is going through us and karmic consciousness isn't mediating, karmic consciousness just makes more karmic consciousness and doesn't get brighter because it's not mediating. The teaching has to move the karmic consciousness around and the karmic consciousness has to learn to play with the teaching.

[63:39]

Otherwise, I don't see the point of the teaching. Right. I'm with you on that. Okay. But the question is, when you're touched by reality, and then you do something, you interpret that, you work with it, and that sort of thing, but that original penetration, that original touch... Was met with karmic consciousness. Karmic consciousness arose with the touch. This is the basic awareness. The touch and karmic consciousness. It doesn't arise without karmic consciousness. It isn't like the touch comes and then karmic consciousness. They come up together. and they go away together. This is our basic, I propose this as the basic mode of practice, is karmic consciousness. That's what we are. And you touch a sentient being and if they experience the touch, then karmic consciousness arises with the experience of the touch. and reality is working on the person. And if they watch the way their karmic consciousness works, they see how reality is working with their karmic consciousness.

[64:47]

It's there, but we have to study karmic consciousness, otherwise we don't see the reality. Otherwise we stay within the world of karmic consciousness only. But if we study the world of karmic consciousness, we open to what's not just karmic consciousness. Which is the way things are beyond our story about them. Like the way you are beyond my story about you. But if I don't take care of my story of you, even if it's a nice story, I'm kind of like, I'll just keep staying in my stories about you. Which is, squeezes my life. And it's also... Yeah, okay, yes. I think that you just answered my question, but I'd like to elaborate a little bit more.

[65:53]

Can you hear her? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? They could hear you. And someone said barely. Ah, okay. Yeah, I think if you speak a little bit louder that everybody will hear you. Okay. Can you hear Aaron? No. Okay. Okay. There's a seat up here, Erin, by the way. There's a seat if you want to come up closer. Okay, Abby, let's speak up for everybody. Okay. It feels to me like this conversation is leading to the understanding that delusion supports enlightenment and enlightenment supports delusion. But to realize the insubstantiality of both, it's probably more wholesome to shine the light of enlightenment on delusion rather than just creating more deluded acts through karma consciousness.

[66:56]

Or rather than just shining the light of the darkness of delusion onto enlightenment. Right, right. Yeah, let's shine the light of enlightenment onto the darkness of delusion. Let's do that. That's the way to go. Okay. And you say, could I have a better light, please? Can I use something else to look at karmic consciousness rather than karmic consciousness? Sorry. Sorry. I guess I heard you say that there is direct experience, and that's karmic consciousness. That's an example. And then there's kind of like conceptual... Indirect experience. Indirect. That's karmic consciousness. So there's two varieties of karmic consciousness. And there's two kinds of cognitions. And those cognitions are usually talked about just in terms of the cognitions.

[68:00]

That's an epistemological discussion about the difference between these two kinds of cognitions. But they arise with these mental factors, so they're both karmic consciousness. Do you want to name them? Do you want to name them? Yeah. One is direct perception. Okay. And the other is indirect perception, you could say. But maybe one is direct cognition and the other is indirect cognition. Those are the two basic types of cognition. One has concepts with it because it's five skandhas. So there's consciousness and there's conception. So even direct experience has conception, but it doesn't mediate what it looks at through the conception. Indirect cognitions cognize through the mediation of a concept. I feel like, and that's where the patterns, the pattern, the rice field over the mind is kind of that, or is it both of them?

[69:04]

Both of them. Okay. My root question is kind of like the basic question of like, how do you study karmic consciousness? And I, when you were talking, I thought it's easier to study direct perception. Like to, for myself to note just like, feeling of foot on floor. Yeah, so usually that's not studying direct perception. Usually that's studying conceptual cognition of sense data. It's not the direct perception for most people. So you don't just be like, eyeball-seeing rug. You know, it's like really, there's no whole long... It's not involved. It's like really simple. It can be really... As simple as you can tell me about it, I would say, fine, and I would say that's a conceptual cognition. But it's still conceptual. If you're telling me about it, and even if you keep quiet, if you're thinking about it... I was.

[70:05]

Yeah. And in that, probably it's almost, for most people most of the time, what they're talking about is a conceptual cognition of a very simple relationship with, for example, the sound of rain. Mm-hmm. But in some ways, we have the opportunity now of sitting quietly in the Zen Dome, listening to the rain, and hearing those drops, and feeling like we're tending to sense experience, and we are, but indirectly. But still, it's nice to have that nice, simple version of conceptual cognition to deal with. So maybe that's been my question. I feel like I need to do the simplest possible study. So then there's these more complex patterns, and it seems like when I start thinking about the sound of the rain and then what the rain means and what's going to happen and what I'm going to feel like and what's going to happen to Green Gulch, those things, it gets very complicated.

[71:10]

And it doesn't feel so easy to study that. Yeah, it's not so easy to study. So I think karmic consciousness can pray for more simple karmic consciousnesses to study. And sometimes the prayer does have some effect. Like you can go to a place and go into a room where you're sitting still with other people who are not talking to you and you hear the sound of the rain and you have done certain karmic acts such that you're in a situation where, lo and behold, yeah, It is simple. And that's what I wanted and then go for it. That's fine. And the better you get at watching the karmic consciousness that's hearing the raindrops, the more you'll be able to, if I say, can I talk to you now while you're listening to this? You say, no, later, a couple weeks later. Can I talk to you now? I say, no, a couple weeks later. Can I say something to you? You say, okay. I can incorporate this conversation with this presence. But you're actually present with your conceptual cognitions

[72:14]

And your stories are simple. My story is, I do not have to think about the farm right now. I'm allowed to just think of the sound of the rain. And my story is, I am just thinking about the sound of the rain. And then the story changes, and you don't even say you're thinking about the sound of the rain. There's just the sound of the rain. This is conceptual cognition, most likely. It's karmic consciousness, but a simple version of karmic consciousness. The story is, not even I'm in a zendo maybe, the story is drop, [...] drop. That's the story. That's karmic consciousness, but it's easy to follow. And then if the brain falls faster, it's harder to follow it. And that's fine. You develop your ability to study yourself in that way. And hopefully it will extend so that when stories arise, you gave some examples, that you could stay with those the way you learned to stay with The Sound of the Ring.

[73:26]

And that finally you can stay with all stories that come up and teach others how they could stay with all their stories. And maybe the way you would help them would suggest that they do something simple for a while to get with the basic program in a simplified version. Thank you. You're welcome. Sometimes really smart people have to have really simple karmic consciousness to work on. I think this picks up on a previous question. One thing that's sort of, could you wait one second? Can we tolerate a little window openings? How are you doing there? Well, we had a couple open, but it was too cold over there to get close to it. But the person who was sitting there was fine. Well, how would you be for opening this one? I'm fine. OK.

[74:27]

Is this OK to have this open like this? Fred? Yes. OK. Thank you. Okay, he's doing pretty well. Okay, here we go. It seems that sometimes when my mind is quiet, I can recognize things without bringing language into play. And it's hard to describe with language. But I'm wondering how to use that skillfully or how that fits into our talk about perceptions. Well, just think of an experiment. Again, going back to the experiment of recognizing your father, or at least recognizing the photograph of your father. So somebody puts something up, some visual thing up for light to bounce off into your eye, and they put the thing up there, and you're supposed to press a button as fast as you can or something.

[75:37]

or not even press a button, but they have some kind of electrode in you to be able to tell what you think the thing is. And they flash it, and you don't think it's your father. You don't think it's your father. And certain things are coming up there, and you have no idea what they are. But we have a way to tell that you saw them. So they don't give you something, so they can tell that when they do give you something, you do see it. And you may not even know. They ask you, did you see something? You say, no. Your conceptual cognition doesn't see it. And then you do see something. And they can tell that, excuse me, your direct perception does register it, your conceptual cognition doesn't. Then there's ways of showing a picture of your father which you're supposed to be looking for and in direct perception we verify that you saw it. And I ask you and you say, no, I didn't. Well, I don't know that I did. But we find out you actually saw that image and recognized it and responded,

[76:42]

That you saw it and you didn't have time to say father or daddy or Bill or anything. It was too fast. You couldn't say the word. But you saw it and you knew it was before. But there was some concept there that you used, some image that you used to say, yeah, I'll say that image, I'll go with that, that is. So yeah, there can be pre-verbal karmic consciousness. and pre-verbal direct perception. And there can even be then pre-verbal conceptual cognition based on the direct perception. And is there a way to... I mean, I just kind of... other than just playing with it, is there a way to be more skillful? With what you're paying attention to?

[77:45]

Yeah, with the nonverbal cognitions. the training of being concentrated enough to be that simple with things, and the training to be able to actually ascertain direct perception, is the training in, of all things, being still. So as our ability to be still develops, that will help us get better at the kind of exercise you're alluding to, of working towards direct perception, but not because direct perception is the end of our path, but just because direct perception gives us more information about what's going on about our karmic consciousness. But it will also help us be more concentrated when we have indirect conceptual cognitions. So being concentrated and being still and quiet with what's happening is part of our training.

[78:49]

Now when we're able to be that way with indirect and finally sometimes direct cognitions, they will help us then deal with our karmic consciousness in a more and more skillful way of attention to the process and dynamic of karmic consciousness, which is the dynamic of karmic consciousness and enlightenment. So these kinds of trainings help us study our karmic consciousness, help us be with our karmic consciousness finally without being stuck in it, without attaching to it. to devotedly study ourselves in such a way that we don't grasp ourselves in the process. This is when we realize the relationship between enlightenment and delusion where there isn't any sticking. There's just this interaction, this careful, loving interaction between the two. and nothing's getting stuck. And in that relationship, the truth of the insubstantiality of each of the partners and their interaction is being realized.

[80:00]

But it's being realized through karmic consciousness, because to realize the truth of emptiness with nothing doesn't really reach the problem area of human life. We want to have the truth realized in our karmic consciousness, don't we? So part of our practice is to practice stillness so that we can engage this dynamic and challenging dark area of karmic consciousness and discover that enlightenment's there playing with it all the time. and then clothe and adorn enlightenment with our thinking, with our karmic activity, to demonstrate the realization of this relationship, of this intimacy of enlightenment and delusion of sentient beings and Buddhists.

[81:03]

And part of our training is to train being very simple with what's going on, in a simple way to be with what's going on, is to be still with it. First of all, let's let it be what it is. I mean, just let it be what it appears to be, even. Let common consciousness be unclear. Let it be unclear. Let it have no limits. Just work with this, work with this, work with this in this actually loving way, which starts with being still with it and then opens on to welcoming it being gentle with it, being calm with it, not trying to change it, not trying to control it, not violating its boundaries, and so on, until we finally are working with karmic consciousness with no dwelling in it. And then we open to

[82:06]

the actuality of karmic consciousness and enlightenment. And then we plunge back in again, cycle this insight, and promote more devotion to karmic consciousness with no clinging. And then more revelation of truth, recycling back into karmic consciousness with no clinging. Karmic consciousness with compassion and no clinging, and round and round. That make sense? And part of the training is this simple concentration.

[82:37]

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