Someone said to me, asked me kind of a question something like this. One way that they might have said the question is, is imperceptible mutual assistance or is imperceptible according with all beings? The other dependent character? And I said, yes. So we sometimes say in zazen, in each moment of zazen, there is this imperceptible mutual assistance among all beings going on.

[01:20]

But instead of saying in zazen, you could say that's what zazen is, that's what Buddha Zazen is, or that's what Buddha Samadhi is, or Buddha Dhyana. So an ancient Indian way of talking about imperceptible mutual assistance is the other dependent character or dependent go arising. And the book Third Turning of the Wheel, you know, I always apologize to people that it's kind of hard, I feel.

[02:25]

Sorry, it's kind of hard. I didn't expect anybody to read it. But anyway, and I wrote that because what it's based on is even harder. I thought maybe the book would help people get into SNS, which is Samdhi Nirmocana Sutra. So the Sandhya Nirmocana, it's a book about the wisdom of the Sandhya Nirmocana Sutra, which is a pretty difficult sutra. But I thought very important to me because it's the sutra that really is the basis for the Yogacara school of Mahayana.

[03:28]

So in that book there's teachings about the other dependent character. All phenomena really are other dependent characters. All phenomena are dependent co-arising. Or They are dependent core risings and all phenomena dependently core rise. There's no phenomena that don't dependently core rise. However, the sutra also teaches that phenomena have two other characteristics. the imputational character and the thoroughly established character.

[04:32]

I thought it might be helpful to bring up the teaching from Nath's sutra in relationship to Zazen. What I would say this morning is Zazen is an other dependent character, or it is an example also of other dependent character. It's a dependent co-horizon. However, zazen also has two other characteristics. It has an imputational characteristic, which is like, you know, whatever you think it is. And not only what you think it is, but you think it is that enough so you can lay the word zazen on it.

[05:45]

So imputational character isn't quite the word zazen, but it's a characteristic of things that make us feel like we can put a word on them. So we attribute some kind of like essence or substance to things and then we can put a word on them. So the imputational character of phenomena or the fact that the mind can create this cognitive pattern of essence or substance and put it on other dependent phenomena, it allows us to talk about them. And just by the way, if one adheres strongly to the imputational character of phenomena, of other dependent phenomena, then that's kind of the definition of Sala, would you like to come closer?

[06:49]

Get some seats. No, you don't want to? You want to stay back there? You want to stay back there? Oh, there's a nice seat right up here where you can hear really well. Yes, Alex. Yeah, another word would be to superimpose, to put on top. Impute means like maybe I would look at you and I think, I just thought, this image, there's something there. And it's really nice. And it's so nice that I think I can put the word nice on it. So I look at you and I put this idea of nice on you. I also think that you're there to put nice onto. Like, I don't put nice onto people I'm not sure if they're there.

[07:49]

Like, maybe Julian's there, maybe he's not. I'm not going to put nice on that. But when I think he's really there, then now I can lay some stuff on him. As you were saying earlier today, I was thinking of the turn. He's got it out for you. And there's another way to say it, he's got it in for you. Did he mean the same thing, he's got it out for you and he's got it in for you? He's got it in for you kind of means he's got some problem with you or something like that? He wants to hurt you or something like that? Anyway, that's also kind of imputational. So is that we look... All day long, what do we look at? We look at dependent co-arising. We look at dependently co-arising trees, people, mountains.

[08:54]

Because that's all that there is to look at is dependent co-arising. However, dependent co-arising is imperceptible. It's inconceivable. It's beautiful. It's the Dharma. If you understand dependent core rising, you understand the Dharma. You understand the Buddha. But you can't see it with your eyes because the other dependent character of things is their deportment beyond hearing and seeing. which is inconceivable and imperceptible. But that is what we're looking at. You look at a, I look at Lisa Lott, I'm really looking at a dependently correlated, risen Lisa Lott, because that's the only one there is. However, I also am a being, so I also see her imputational character.

[10:04]

In other words, I see a substance which isn't really there, which is imagined. Another name for this is the imaginary character. So you look at something which is unimaginable and then you imagine something about it. And then you put the imagination of the thing on top of the unimaginable thing. And you grab the imaginable thing. So the way we know dependent core arising, the way we know the way things really are, is by the way they aren't. And the way they are, of course, is infinitely varied, and the way we imagine is also infinitely varied. So zazen has this quality of being, it's other-dependent, it doesn't make itself, it exists by depending on things other than itself. And then there's another character which is called the thoroughly established character, which is that even though the sentient being mind might project a fantasy onto the unimaginable in order to grasp it and talk about it, even though that happens, actually the fantasy never does reach the thing.

[11:30]

And the fact that the fantasies we have about things are absent and are not really there, that's the thoroughly established character. Or emptiness. Emptiness is the freedom of things from our ideas about them. So this person speaks of Zazen in terms of, well, whatever. But the actual Zazen of the Buddhas has this imperceptible quality. It's other-dependent. It's a dependent goal arising, and we have ideas about it which are imputed on it. And that's how we know it through our ideas. However, even though we can't know it except through our perceptions, we can realize the imperceptible. And the way we realize it is by practice. Yes?

[12:33]

No, it's not. When you grasp it, it is affliction. When you grasp it. In early Buddhism, in the Abhidharma Kosha, it defines suffering as upadana skandha, which means grasping the skandhas. If you grasp feeling or forms or emotions or perceptions or consciousness, if you grasp any of those skandhas or mental formations, if you grasp them, that's the definition of suffering. But it doesn't say the five skandhas exactly are... It actually does, but when it says that they're suffering, it means when you grasp them. So grasping... So a Buddha, or by imperceptible mutual assistance, we are actually able sometimes to not strongly adhere to the imputational as being the other dependent character.

[13:48]

We say, oh, I have an idea of this dependent core rising in front of me, but I'm not going to grasp it strongly. And then maybe I actually, and I don't grasp it, I'm not going to grasp it strongly either. And maybe I don't. And if I don't, then the affliction starts to melt away. It's abandoned. Julia and Maya, You don't see the difference between the other dependent and what? Yeah, that's like, it was kind of subtle. So, it's like, what's the difference between you with a hat on and you without the hat? So you without the hat is the thoroughly established you.

[14:55]

And you with the hat is you with the imputational character put upon you. Oh, the first and the third? Oh, the third is the absent of the first. in the second. It's not just the absence of the first, it's the absence of the first in the second. The second is kind of like the center of gravity of our life, where the pinnacle arises. However, because for various evolutionary reasons in the history of this universe, we have developed these fantasies about our life. So before there was this fantasy thing, but maybe there was no before that, because before is another dependable arising, which has an imputational character and so on.

[15:58]

So I don't know if we could ever know the before, but anyway... It could be that before people could do the imputation, we just had the other dependent. And you say, well, then we didn't have the thoroughly established. Well, in a way, yeah, we didn't have it. We didn't need it. So you don't need emptiness if you don't have any things being made into like limited versions of reality. But now we make limited versions of reality for various purposes. We grasp them as being reality, and that's affliction. However, when we understand that the graspability or the mode of grasping of phenomena is actually not in the phenomena, but just sort of superimposed upon them and never really reaches them, then we start to open to the thoroughly established. And the thoroughly established then, if you pay attention to the emptiness, to the thoroughly established, that's called the object of purification.

[17:03]

The more you meditate on the way things are free of what you think they are, the more you kind of purify your vision. And purifying your vision goes with loosening, grasping the imagination of things. So I imagine these are nice people, which is not that bad an imagination, but if I grasp it, it's still affliction. Okay? And it's interesting that the word thoroughly established is one translation of the third characteristic of all phenomena, including the phenomena, the wonderful phenomena of Buddha's Samadhi. Buddha's Samadhi. which is also called Jijuyusamadhi, or self-receiving and employing samadhi. This samadhi has another dependent character.

[18:05]

It has our ideas about it, and it's also free of our ideas about it. May I? Okay, so that's a little introduction to... By the way, our precious abbess told me that she couldn't be here this morning. She had something else that she needed to do. So she asked me not to talk about anything very interesting. So that's why I'm talking about this. Yes? If depending on rising is imperceptible, How is it that it's been written about and talked about and is being talked about by you if it's imperceptible? What do you mean by imperceptible? Is it imperceptible to the eyes and the ears but perceptible by another sense? Is there how... Well, it's kind of like since you're another dependent...

[19:11]

phenomena, how come I talk about you?" And I can say, well, because it's useful. So it's somewhat helpful to tell people about dependent core arising even though the talk about it doesn't reach it. So the Buddha did teach about dependent core arising even though the words that the Buddha used don't reach the dependent core arising. that which the words don't reach, it can talk. The meaning is not in the words. However, it's not without speech. So the Buddha talks, and when the Buddha talks, then it's sometimes helpful. So the Buddha somehow... It happened that the Buddha started to talk about what the Buddha realized, which is imperceptible.

[20:17]

Somehow it helped to warm people up to meditating on the imperceptible, to give them some words about it, or to put it out in a way that prompted them to imagine things about it and then put conventional designations on their imaginations. So are you saying that it's unperceptible or undescribable? Or both? Well, you can describe it, but when you describe something, you don't necessarily think that your description reached the thing. But when you perceive it, you think sometimes that is actually what it is. So if I describe you, I don't think that's you, but when I perceive you, I sometimes think I'm seeing you. Do you see the difference? Perceptions look kind of, they have this, what do you call this? They have an imperceptible subtitle which says, this is actually, this is true. When I was a child, they did this thing, they actually did this thing in movies of doing this imperceptible subtitles before the movie started saying, go to the lobby and buy Coke and popcorn.

[21:32]

Yeah. But they sent the message faster than we can see. We can see 24 frames a second, I think. Is it a second? But if you deliver a message at like 50 frames a second, you can get that message in between what we are able to perceive, but our nervous system can still pick it up. We just can't consciously pick it up. We can pick up things really fast with our unconscious cognitive processes. So they sent those messages, but then people found out about it and they made it against the law. in the movie theaters, but people try it other places, of course. So the message is coming across, like this whole universe is coming across to us, including its emptiness. The pinnacle arises, coming to us all the time, but it's imperceptible. It's too much. It's just too awesome and magnificent to fit into our little perceptions.

[22:39]

However, even though it's imperceptible, it can talk. It can tell us about itself. It says, by the way, I just want you to know I'm I who you cannot see and hear. And now you can hear something, but that's not me. That's just what you hear me saying. And I'm happy to say it. I want you to know about me. So after the Buddha became Buddha, the Buddha was walking around and some people said, what's new? And he said, oh, well, I'm a Buddha. But he didn't, like when he said that, before that he wasn't thinking, I am what he said. But since you asked, I woke up. And they said, well, tell us about it. So then he told them about, and the words he used didn't reach where they were coming from, but they came from where they were coming from. So the Buddha, he didn't teach them the pentacle rising right away. Taught them some other stuff. Actually, in the Mahayana version of the Buddha starting to teach, the Mahayana version of that is the Avatamsaka Sutra.

[23:50]

The Buddha taught this teaching to bodhisattvas, but most people couldn't handle it, so he made it simpler, Four Noble Truths, Middle Way. And then later he explained the Pentacle Rising. Yes? What am I trying to say? Is there a way to kind of appreciate, like if the dependent nature, if the constant nature is based on the dependent nature emptying the impurity, is the next step kind of to appreciate appreciate the generosity of the dependent nature as it expresses itself as perceptions, but not limited by perceptions, that the dependent nature is so generous and just flowing such that it could be a perception and you can kind of appreciate perceptions as the ornamentation of that empty process rather than like a limitation of that process.

[25:07]

that the imputed is just another display of the dependent. Well, yes, yes. The falling for the limitation isn't real, and it's suffering. But it isn't really limited. But the other dependent is very gracious and it allows itself to be imagined as limitable. But also, The imputational character also has another dependent character. And it has a thoroughly established character. But the other dependent character is, I could say, infinitely gracious and generous to let us think anything we want about it. And it doesn't try to stop us. And then if we grasp what we think about, it doesn't try to stop us. It lets us grasp our ideas. It's so generous.

[26:10]

Is that what Dogen is suggesting? When he says think non-thinking, how do you do that non-thinking? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I just thought I might mention that uninteresting thing, right? Yeah. Buddha Samadhi is basically imperceptible, mutual, dependent, co-arising. And also, we have ideas about it, and also it's free of our ideas about it. And we can discuss it by saying, for example, what I just said, We have ideas about zazen and zazen is free of our ideas. But that doesn't mean you should stop having ideas about it. But maybe listen to the teaching that you do have ideas and it's free of your ideas. So it would be okay if you don't hold on to your ideas of zazen. And also it would be okay if you do hold on to your ideas of zazen, that you practice compassion

[27:14]

with the pain you feel when you hold on to your ideas of zazen. And also be compassionate to anybody else who is deluded like that, of thinking that their idea of zazen is zazen. Yes? You asked me to remind you to write down discrimination. Yeah. I knew there was something else I asked you to remind me. So here's the word discrimination. I'm going to write it down now. Discrimination. All right? And again, I... Yes? Before you start talking about that, can I ask a question also? He said, before I start talking about that, can he ask me a question about what I was talking about before?

[28:19]

Yes. Did you just use the words dependent co-arising and emptiness synonymous? No. Emptiness is how dependent co-arising is free of our ideas of dependent co-arising. Emptiness is how all dependent core risings are free of our imputations or our fantasies about them. Things don't actually, you do not actually carry around with you my ideas of you. It may seem like you carry around your ideas to yourself though, but you don't. We actually do not carry these things around. We are free of them. But that doesn't mean they're not arising with us and ceasing with us. So, yeah.

[29:24]

And that's why meditating on the thoroughly established, I mean, the other dependent character, which is recommended... to remember it, still you can meditate on the other dependent and still hold on to your clinging to it as being your fantasies about it. But when you meditate on emptiness, that frees you from believing that your ideas about things are the things themselves. So that's why we need this ultimate truth. to free us from clinging to the conventional truth about, for example, Buddha Zazen or any phenomena. Now, Buddha Zazen is, I don't know, it's, yeah, it's Pretty good stuff. And Buddhist Zazen is also being dependent, co-arising, being imperceptible, mutual accord.

[30:36]

Buddhist Zazen is the same Zazen as everybody else's Zazen. It's the same Zazen as all of ours, each of our Zazens. It's the same practice as each of us. It's also the same enlightenment as each of us. I feel like I should stop there for a long time, if you could remember. But if I do, you'll probably forget what I said. It's actually going to give something else. So I might as well say it again. And then Buddha Zazen is the same as yours. Buddha's enlightenment is the same as yours. Buddha Zazen includes all of our enlightenments. It's the same as them. Now, as you may have heard, some sentient beings also are quite deluded. Like they have deluded ideas of awakening. Have you heard about that? To be greatly deluded about enlightenment, it's actually awakening, to be greatly deluded about awakening is sentient beings.

[31:46]

So sometimes it's translated as sentient beings are those who are. But actually, that's one other definition of sentient beings is to be deluded in a big way, in an important way, about awakening. To be greatly awakened about delusion is Buddha's. So you have sentient beings who are deluded. And I just said that their enlightenment is the same as the Buddha's enlightenment. Yeah. But actually, they're not separate. Except that we discriminate that they're separate. And I am practicing, sort of, in my deluded way, I am practicing.

[32:51]

And my practice is the same as unsurpassed, complete, perfect enlightenment. which is the Buddha's practice. Except I might discriminate between my practice and the Buddha's practice of enlightenment. And in the Buddha's case, I might say, well, I can see how there's no need to discriminate between Buddha's enlightenment and Buddha's practice, right? It makes sense to me, anyway, that you don't have to discriminate between what Buddha is and what Buddha does. Buddha practices and Buddha is really awakened. So Buddha's practice and Buddha's enlightenment are the same. But I might discriminate between my practice and enlightenment. A lot of people do discriminate between their practice and enlightenment, or between their mind and deeply calm, flexible, undistracted concentration.

[34:08]

So even though basically we're already included and our practice is all day long the same practice as Buddha's, All day long we're imperceptibly, mutually, dependently co-arising together. So there's really no place. You don't have to go any place. You already have the same practice as Buddhas. There's nothing to gain. There's no place to go. We're fine. And so we can sit that way. However, we have a mind which discriminates. And the discriminations have a consequence of making us actually feel like we're separate from complete perfect enlightenment, which is really a more or less uncomfortable situation. And then we could even be terrified of Buddha Samadhi if we thought we were separate from it. And some people are, you know, they go someplace and they see, they hear, Buddha Samadhi's over in that room, and they don't want to go in there, because it's just so awesome.

[35:25]

The pinnacle arising is inconceivably beautiful, and it's awesome, and it's tremendous, and it's et cetera, and mysterious. And then we think, oh, that's something separate from me. Our mind does that. We have this wonderful mind which discriminates. So part of the practice, even though all we got to do is just sit and have that sitting be the same practice as the Buddha's. So then you're doing the Buddha's practice. You're liberating beings. You're helping them be free and at peace. You're doing Buddha's work all day long. How wonderful. But your mind might make a little bit of a discrimination or a big discrimination. And then it's like they're actually separate. Even though they're not, the separation kind of makes it like they're separate.

[36:25]

So part of the practice is not just to sit and walk with the teaching that your practice is imperceptibly according with all beings. That's part of the practice. Listen to that teaching and remember it and practice it. Remember stillness means remember you don't have to go someplace to be Buddha. You don't have to be somebody different to practice the Buddha way. And if that's all that was going on, that would be it. But we have a mind which discriminates and says, yeah, but I don't. Yeah, but I don't. Yeah, but she doesn't. So another part of the practice is to take care of our discriminations so they don't rip us apart from who we are. So they don't rip us apart from our imperceptible mutual accord with all beings. We are dependent clarifying, but if we fall for our discriminations, it's like we're not.

[37:30]

And that's the problem. So, again, some teachings are about what the Samadhi is and what our practice is. Our practice is the same as the Buddha's, but then there's other teachings for people who do not really believe that. or understand it because their mind's putting up discrimination. So we need to study discriminations along with the teaching that we have the same practice as each other, the same enlightenment as each other, which is the same as Buddha. And we're also discriminators, so we have to sort of, step by step, take care of the discriminations in a way that we don't fall into them. I think it's, I'm not sure what number it is, but the name of the case, Book of Serenity is, I think it's Me Who's Enlightenment or Not.

[38:34]

It's Romanized, I think, in the Book of Serenity by Cleary, it's Romanized M-I-H-U. Me Who. Me Who. Mi Hu is enlightenment or not, in quotes. So I think Mi Hu was, I believe, a sibling, a Dharma sibling with Yangshan back in the Tang Dynasty, China. And Mi Hu was living in a different monastery from his sibling. And he sent one of his monks to ask his Dharma brother, Ask him if people these days need enlightenment or not. And Yangshan said, it's not that there's no enlightenment. It's just that we have to be careful not to fall into the secondary.

[39:42]

Secondary. Secondary. Discriminations. Like there's enlightenment and then there's discriminations about it. Or there's enlightenment and then there's thinking that it's separate and then seeking it. So, and he didn't say there was enlightenment, he said it's not that there isn't. But we have to be careful about our discriminations. Isn't that the same as imputation? It's kind of the same as imputation, but it's more like picking and choosing among the discriminations. In addition to making discriminations, you're adhering to them, and then discriminations choosing among your imputations. like impute enlightenment and impute delusion and then you're like saying, well actually they look like two different things.

[40:53]

So it's kind of another layer on top of imputation. Did you follow that by any chance? If you say, I impute this person to be good or I impute this person to be bad for certain qualities, for example. She said, if I impute this person to be good or if I impute this person to be bad for certain qualities. So, Is that like a second subset layer? No, that's just like imputation. Imputing good, imputing bad. Discrimination is like good is separate from bad. And non-discrimination says good, bad. That's pretty much it. I'm not saying they're different. So then that's kind of like not adhering to the imputations. And also picking up on the Larry and what he said earlier about lots of words are going around today.

[42:00]

Dependent co-arising and thoroughly established seem to be the same. She said, it seems like thoroughly established and dependent co-arising are the same. It seemed like that to you? Yeah, well, they're very close, but because actually the dependent core arising does have a character. So here's something that has this characteristic, and it has another characteristic. So the characteristics of a thing are close. So right in the neighborhood of dependent core arising are imputations, but they're actually not in... the other dependent. They're just coming up with it. And also, the absent of that in this is not in this. So it's a separate quality. Emptiness is the freedom of dependent co-arising from our ideas.

[43:06]

So these three things are very closely related. But again, the absence of certain qualities in you are not the same as you. Or the absence of any ideas of you in the way you dependently co-arise are not the same as the way you dependently co-arise. Yes. Is your name Kyle? Yes. Where did that come from? Just kidding. You may have already answered this, but if you did, I didn't quite understand. How can we take care of our discriminations without making additional discriminations? And by that I mean, if I have the thought... You probably won't be able to. But again, that's related to Resola's question, if the Buddha cannot be reached by words, why the Buddha talk? So if we want to teach people how to take care of discriminations without falling into them, why make any more discriminations?

[44:17]

It's kind of like we teach people how to let go of discrimination by showing them how we deal with our discriminations. they can watch a master work with discriminations and they see new ways of dealing with discriminations that they hadn't tried before. So there's an art to this. There's an art to like not getting stuck in discriminations, but that art is demonstrated by making discriminations. Like, this is blue and this is red and this is white. Red, white, and blue. And some people work You know, they give their whole life to working with how those colors are working together in such a way as nobody gets caught by the discrimination between them. And they try, maybe for many years they get caught in the discrimination themselves, but as the art develops, It's like there's those three things and there can be discriminations, but there's non-discriminating wisdom about them.

[45:26]

So again, as I said, as you said, non-discriminating wisdom is not that there's no discriminations. It's not that there's no discriminations. It's that you study everything. So when you have non-discriminating wisdom, you study red, white, and blue. But if you don't have non-discriminating wisdom, you may just study white and forget about red. Can you say that again? Non-discriminating wisdom is not that there are discriminations? Yeah, non-discriminating wisdom, or for short, non-discrimination, is not no discriminating. That's what... Susie Gershey's English is pretty good sometimes. Yeah. Pardon? You said one more thing. I said a lot more. And I just added a comment. It's pretty good. Non-discrimination is not not discriminating.

[46:29]

It is studying everything. Or it studies everything. Whereas discrimination picks and chooses. Studies some things, other things, forget it. So part of the way we develop nondiscrimination is by trying to study everything, which we're trying to do, right? We're trying to study everything rather than just some things. But again, still, we may notice occasionally that something comes up and we pass on studying it. I'm not going to study it. I'm just going to like, this is the way things are. And that's the end of that. Rather than, I wonder what's going on here. Shall we probe this a little bit? It's going to take more time than just apprehending it according to our discrimination. So discrimination, studying discrimination in a compassionate way can come to fruit

[47:36]

as not being caught by our discrimination. But the way you demonstrate that you're not caught by discrimination, one of the main ways to demonstrate it is how you work with discriminations. Do you fall into them? And if so, how long? A second? A week? A month? And you may say, well, it's a month. But, you know, after 40 years of practice, I only fall into it for a day. And after 50 years of practice, I fell into it just for a flash. By catching myself falling into my discriminations and believing them, rather than discrimination study, discrimination study, my enlightenment is different from yours, or my enlightenment is different from Buddha's, or both. That's a discrimination. Study that. and study everything, and you will join the Freedom From Discrimination Club. Yes?

[48:41]

You said the word falling into discrimination, and it kind of touches on a point that is really affecting me, maybe. This notion of falling, and how falling into discrimination while being an inflicted thing, is incredibly comfortable. It gives you a sense of safety, of knowing who you are, knowing what the world is. It's delusional, but it's comfortable. And this notion of... Temporarily. Temporarily. It's an addiction. It is, and it's like you get your fix, and then you're scrambling for the next one. But you might, while you're scrambling, you might be kind of uncomfortable. Which convinces you more that maybe it's probably a good idea to... I guess my point is this, like the trustworthiness of the mutual support of reality. And how do you trust, trust fall into reality when our nervous systems, especially if they've been severely traumatized, are constantly trying to establish a provisional sense of safety.

[49:49]

Well, you practice compassion towards that. You practice compassion towards what the traumatized being is doing. If the traumatized being receives compassion over and over and over for their enterprises, they will start to dare to relax a little bit and start playing a little bit. Just to be honest about the affective, this is all pretty and wonderful philosophy, so cognitively clear, but the affective dimension of it is a kind of terror. Like learning how to actually... Yeah, let's add terrible. I talked about that recently, but I'll bring it up again. Dependent core rising is terrifying. And if you can tolerate it, it's beautiful. And so we need training and support to develop the ability to tolerate the terror of Buddha Zazen, the terrific, awesome, frightening aspect of creation.

[51:15]

And we get beauty coming with that, which is somewhat encouraging. So with the terror that we tolerate, we get the encouragement of the beauty, which is also part of the art. But the pinnacle rising is terrifying. And when you open to it, there's some trembling. But it's possible to tolerate the trembling by training in patience. Training at patience with things which aren't terrible is a warm-up to being patient with terrible things. Patience with little pains is a warm-up to patience with big pains. And then big pains are a warm-up to dealing with terrifying pain. So it's possible to learn this. The tradition is saying we can get better at patience. But also, again, welcoming little monsters is a warm-up to welcoming terrible monsters.

[52:26]

And being careful of little monsters, being respectful of little monsters, little terrors, Being gentle and respectful and tender with little monsters is a warm-up to being tender and careful and respectful of big monsters. So these first three practices, generosity, ethical discipline, and patience, help us get ready to be able to relax with the terror and awesomeness of the pinnacle horizon. It's not going to stop being terrifying. It's not going to lose its power to be just overwhelmingly, magnificently, mysteriously, shockingly terrifying. But we can get better at hanging out with it by practicing generosity, ethics, patience, and then developing a regular practice of

[53:43]

of remembering that we would like actually to be able to meet whatever's coming with compassion. And we really want to do that. And we want to do it so much that we're actually going to do it. We have energy to do it. And then we're ready to start practicing the samadhi, where we're going to start to be, now that we're going to start relaxing and being playful with something that's terrifying. And then if we can be playful with it, we can be creative with it. And the art starts. And if you can be creative with it, you'll understand it. And when you understand what's terrifying, it isn't that it isn't terrifying anymore, it's just that you're free once you understand it. And then you can also teach other people how to be free with the terrifying wondrous, marvelous, beautiful, the pinnacle arising.

[54:48]

Yes? Sorry, I might be the only person in the room. You might be the only person in the room. In the room. Who doesn't understand why we're saying the other dependent is terrifying. Oh, well, one reason might be is that other-dependent means that all you are is other-dependent. You do not produce yourself. And that can be terrifying, that you don't produce yourself. A lot of people are into producing themselves, maintaining themselves. But you're not maintained by yourself. Your self is not maintained by yourself. It's maintained by others. And how reliable are they? Well, it turns out they are reliable. However, you can't rely on them making the same self. You can't rely on others to make the same self, and you can't make your same self.

[55:56]

But they will make you, just not under your control. And wait a minute. People are going to make me get old and sick? Anyway. It's kind of, and not only that, but, yeah, when you start to meditate on the other dependent, this is also in the sutra, when you start to meditate on it, you're also, that leads you to meditate on how you don't have the nature of producing yourself. You're absent of that, and that makes you realize that all phenomena are kind of like unstable, right? and unreliable, including you. And that's kind of terrifying. However, it also can stimulate you to practice ethics and be careful. So even the meditation on the other dependent can be kind of scary.

[56:59]

Yeah, so is that enough to get you started? Yeah, absolutely. It accounts for, well, I want to say it accounts for kind of the essential, what's the word? Not nervousness, helping. Anxiety. Anxiety, thank you. Ayana? Ayana? I have been all the time in the wheelchair. I have been noticing or being aware of how much otherwise when I move around, I discriminate. I see that there is a bug right there, or I see that the hill goes up, but all the time, in a sense, scanning the surroundings. So my question I want to give to you is that isn't it also so that we need to...

[58:03]

have a certain amount of discrimination. For example, as a child, we learned that we can't go over the road because there are cars coming, or you can't jump with your head first downstairs. There's a lot of things we actually have to learn, but of course many of these discriminations are maybe not necessary. It may be possible that some discriminations aren't necessary. But again, our founder did not say not to discriminate. So, discriminations are a good neighbor of non-discrimination. So if anybody doesn't have enough discriminations, let me know. I'll give you some more. But most people have plenty.

[59:06]

So I'm not saying they shouldn't have more or they should have less. I'm saying let's study the discriminations. Like, you know, I was riding a bicycle right down this road about 15 years ago or 13 years ago, with my grandson. He was the head of me on the road. And I said, there's a speed bump up ahead. It's a discrimination. And I was discriminating between me and him. So I thought, well, I know there's a speed bump. He doesn't. And somebody just drove your car out there. Yeah. Oh no, that's Linda Ruth, sorry. Yeah, so we're not trying to get rid of discriminations. And of course we have now discrimination against various types of people which are so terrible in this world.

[60:11]

I'm not trying to get rid of those discriminations. I'm trying to get people to study them. And if you study the discriminations, we can become free of them. And then without getting rid of discrimination, we can have freedom and peace while we discriminate. And of course, some discriminations we know generically are breaking precepts. So forget about what you're discriminating about you can know for a basic policy that if you're discriminating yourself above other beings as being better than them and them being less than you, that's a discrimination which is violating a precept. So if you see that discrimination, that's one you can confess and repent about right away. But I guess I could also basically confess and repent the other discriminations too.

[61:16]

Like, oh, I just discriminated myself as separate from you. I won't necessarily say it out loud, but I say, I'm sorry. I'm sorry I actually saw myself as separate and believed it. I'm sorry I saw myself as separate and thought that my life is not the same as your life. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Because I know my life is, I know you are my life. But there for a second I thought, nah, you're optional. You know, I don't need, I don't depend on you. I depend on some others, but not all others. So then I fall for that discrimination, and I'm sorry, and then that helps me, that helps melt away that, you know, does that make sense? Then wouldn't you be sorry all the time? Just like 24-7? No? Maybe, yeah.

[62:20]

But this kind of sorry is kind of a good sorry. It's a medicinal sorry. Sonia? I'm wondering if you see a difference between discriminating and discerning? Yeah. Discerning is... Well, discerning is, I just discriminated. Discerning doesn't really discriminate. It just says discrimination, [...] discrimination. It's just like, kind of like seeing what's going on. Not so much telling that this is... Actually, I don't know what the root of discern is, but there's a dis in discriminating, and I don't know if the dis in discern functions the same way. But anyway, I can see discerning, we say... It's kind of positive to say, she's a discerning person, and not so positive to say, she's a discriminating person. But really, everybody is a discriminating person, and we can learn to be discerning.

[63:26]

And for example, you can tell the difference. You can see now I'm discriminating, and now I'm discriminating, and now I'm discriminating. And maybe sometimes I don't see any discrimination. Oh, and then I discriminate between that and when there is. So discernment, I think, is a little bit kind of like more of something to develop. But I wouldn't say you don't have to develop your... Because part of studying discrimination might be actually getting more subtle about it. There's lots of hands. Ah, wow, we're getting in trouble now. I'm just going to say the names, I don't know what order, okay? Zenki, Rezola, Ann, Kogan, is that it? Somebody else? Sam? Okay, you're on the list. When did you, did you raise your hand a long time ago?

[64:27]

Okay, you can do things. I don't know what's that about. You mean, if you don't do it, you feel uncomfortable, and when you do do it, you feel great? I feel uncomfortable, but when I do it, it feels better than when I'm preparing for it. And then I'm still a little uncomfortable in the process, but it gets a little better as we talk. I don't know. Do you see anything? I see, I guess I would say thank you very much for telling us about this. I think it's good to tell us that so we can understand what you're working on. You're working on asking questions in public and maybe part of the reason you're asking them is to, I don't know what the word is, calm your anxiety about asking them.

[65:39]

Yeah. You feel more alive. Yeah. So I think a lot of people do feel more alive when they ask a question. If you're sitting and listening to somebody, you can feel quite alive, but sometimes you might feel like, maybe if I asked a question, it would really help everybody. And wouldn't that be great? So I often mention in the... beginning of one of the great Mahayana scriptures, which is called the Heroic Stride Samadhi. At the beginning, this bodhisattva, I think his name is Vrindhamati, he thinks, the Buddha is in front of him and he thinks, he has this thought, I want to ask the Buddha a question, which would really be helpful. And then he lists all the things he wants the question to, all the benefits he wants the question to have. Long list, I wanted to do this and do that and do that.

[66:45]

He wants to ask a question which is very, very helpful. And actually, that story is, I think, in Third Turning. Is it? It's in the latest book. Oh, it's in the latest book. Yeah, so a story about that. But anyway, do not tell that story right now, which is in the book, but to say that... Buddha saw that Dhritamati wanted to ask the question. Then Buddha praised Dhritamati for wanting to ask a question in order to help everybody. And then finally then he said, well, so now I see how much you want to help people by asking a question. So now ask it. And he asked the question, which is, well, what is this heroic stride Samadhi? And then the Buddha, the Buddha tells him, So asking questions can be very enlivening to the conversation. But you can listen in a live way.

[67:50]

But to ask a question... Yeah, I remember I just thought now. One time I was sitting... at Sokoji Temple, and Siddharth Gershi was giving a talk, and it was really a long talk, and I was sitting cross-legged, and as the talk got up towards two hours, I started to get more and more uncomfortable, so I asked him a question, but I wasn't, you know, yeah, and the question was, is the suffering of a Zen master the same as a Zen student? Because he was standing and pretty comfortable looking. And he said actually what I kind of was wanting him to say, but not quite knowing that I wanted to. He said, yes, it's the same. So that's an example of asking a question.

[68:50]

And I think it did, it enlivened me to ask it and it enlivened me for him to answer it. So I think asking questions is enlivening. like in this class. These questions are enlivening. So please, ask questions. If you're addicted to it... That was another question. Can I stop now? And the answer is yes. And thank you for enlivening the discourse here, the conversation. Yes. Next is Zenki, I think. Does the thoroughly established dependently co-arise?

[69:54]

Yep. So the dependent co-arising has a dependent co-arising quality, of course. It is the dependent co-arising quality, but it also has an imputational quality so we can talk about it. But it also has, it's also, dependent co-arising is free of our ideas, so dependent co-arising also has a thoroughly established quality. The thoroughly established has a dependent co-arising quality because anything that comes to exist has that quality, but it's also free of our ideas of it. Emptiness is free of our ideas of emptiness, but also emptiness has an imputational quality so we can talk about it. Also, the imputational has a dependent that co-arises, and it's also free of our ideas of it. But of course, it also has ideas of itself. So each one has all three. Everything has all three, including the three. Thank you for your sweaty question. Colgan?

[70:59]

what the relationship between practicing is that so in conjunction with discrimination and discernment is asking is that so one way to navigate three characteristics. Oh. Well, he's referring to the story of Hakuin, which I read in Zen Flesh and Bones. And so Hakuin's being insulted and attacked. Okay? And then he says, is that so? And Kogan's saying, is that kind of a way to negotiate discriminations? Yeah. It seemed to be his way. And it's the way of a lot of Japanese people. Where is Toju here? Yeah. So many Japanese people, if you say something to them, they say, asodesuka. Right? Japanese people say that quite frequently, don't they?

[72:02]

Asodesuka. That's probably what Hakuin said. People said, you're a terrible priest. And he goes, asodesuka. What does that mean? Is that so? Am I? Hmm. I didn't know that. Thank you. I'll look at that. Or, geez, what a life I have here. You know, it's like, that's a good phrase. That's a good Japanese phrase. So deska means is it? Is it this way? Is this the way it is? Is this my life? That here I am trying to be a good disciple of Buddha and people are telling me I'm like really a disgrace? Is this my life right now? Is this like really great? No, anyway, Asodeska. But I didn't notice when he said Asodeska what a nice negotiation he was making with the insult. But then when the story evolved and people found out what a great person he was, or rather they found out what they thought was not him, I should say better.

[73:12]

They found out that what they thought he was is not true. Then they made up another thing about him, which was that he was great. And they went back and they praised him. And he said, Asodeska. Then I understood he did Asodeska with everything, maybe. And I thought, that's cool. I want to learn how to say Asodeska no matter what people say about me or you or whatever. Whatever I think of you, I want to say Asodeska. Ah, good student. So I think that is a very nice example of how to negotiate discriminations. Insult, praise. So this is a question about something you said kind of quickly, I think more towards the beginning of your talk. I think that you said that Our minds have evolved in such a way that we cognize our imputed ideas about things, rather than seeing things as they are.

[74:24]

I guess I just ask myself so often, why have we evolved? to this, in this manner that creates suffering. When you look at other aspects of our evolution, like we evolved to have this digit, this thumb that loses the other four fingers for a reason, so that we have these fine motor skills. Yeah, so neuroscience is now saying, putting forth the case, the reason we do that is for survival. It takes a... Yeah. That we... Those who look at things and say, are less likely to survive than those who put a narrow idea on it and act. So it's part of our evolution to misrepresent what's going on for survival purposes and not be philosophers.

[75:31]

Do you think it's helped with our survival? Well, survival and reproduction. Like in certain societies which are still on this planet, the murderers are the ones with the most wives. So our ancestors, not us, but our ancestors were the murderers. And the murdered people are not our ancestors. Our ancestors were the brutes, were the selfish ones, who put their own reproduction ahead of their neighbor, who protected their children rather than the others. So that's part of the story, is that evolution has made us reduce reality for survival purposes. But that causes suffering and now we're in a phase where things are somewhat different than they were hundreds of thousands of years ago or even 50,000 years.

[76:42]

Things are different now. We're more aware of the suffering and we're less concerned about reproduction. Matter of fact, we're considering maybe we've done enough of it. Whereas I don't think at a certain point in history people thought they did enough reproduction. Anyway, so we're in a different phase of history and we're now seeing the disadvantage of the way our body and mind misrepresent reality. We've been tipped off to it. It's been widely spread around. Some people still don't think it's true in their case. They don't think they're doing that, but they think other people are. But even that thought is more advanced than everybody sees the truth. And still I'm going to kill them even though they see the truth just like I do because they've got some stuff I want. That's our background, our animal, territorial. Right, we have these animal instincts for survival and reproduction, but these human minds... Well, the minds serve that.

[77:48]

The minds work for those guys. Our mind works for those guys. But we've evolved to a point where we can see this is causing undue, this is causing, actually this may cause the extinction of the human race, what we're doing. We're starting to see that. We're starting to see the disastrous consequences of our minds, which come from our bodies, which come with our bodies. And so we're wondering, can we now start doing things differently? And put more, not that we haven't been practicing compassion all along, it's just we didn't understand it. Can we understand it better? And I think we can. Because really, compassion is the way we really are. That's reality. But in the past, for a long time, it wasn't evolutionarily advantageous to be aware of compassion.

[78:55]

So people started to cover it up with other versions of reality. And those people were more successful than the people who could see that this person who was coming to rob them was actually their good friend. But that's the stories that brought some of us to Zen, is when somebody could see that a robber was somebody who he wanted to help. This is like kind of a new thing. Again, maybe that used to be the case, that people did that, but then those people then, they often didn't reproduce, and the robber did reproduce, because the robber stole people from this person, who just watched them and said, thank you, please help, have my people, have my house. But now we're kind of trying that again, and maybe those people also might, some of them might reproduce, but maybe not too much.

[80:00]

Maybe just have one child instead of as many as possible. Yes? If I'm going to have a conversation or have Buddha Samadhi or allow the world to turn, so to speak, to bring me forward, it seems to me like what I'm looking for is attunement. Attunement? Attunement. Like, what's the role of attunement as opposed to discrimination? Well, attunement is kind of like Buddha Samadhi. No, it doesn't feel that way, necessarily. It is that way. And you may or may not feel it. And in order to realize this attunement, which is already going on, but which is also, the attunement is also terrifying. Right. In order to... The attunement.

[81:03]

The attunement is terrifying because it's like you're attuned with... with people who are really scary and people who are really cruel, you're attuned with them too. So the consequences of this dependable arising, when you start to look at it, as you start to look at it and as you start to get familiar with it, it can be terrifying. So we have to learn how to take care of ourselves with this terrifying aspect, the magnificent, awesome aspect of attunement. It's like it... To the beginner, it looks like it might overwhelm us. Just like to a beginner, some waves at the beach are okay. Other waves are terrifying. You don't know how to be present with them, so you have to work up to those. So part of the way to work with attunement is to learn how to tolerate the terror and also to tolerate lack of attunement, because lack of attunement can also be kind of terrifying.

[82:11]

So we have to practice compassion towards lack of attunement and also we have to practice basically taking care of ourselves, being very generous and careful and patient with, for example, not feeling in attune, will help us actually be in attune. And we certainly, most of us, see quite a few examples of not being in attunement, right? Where we disagree with people. Like we say something and they say, no, it's not that way. And some people generally do that with what we say. I've heard the expression, you disagree with everything I say. No, I don't. So there's plenty of disagreement and apparent lack of attunement. But in that example, sometimes you could say, you disagree with everything I say. No, I don't. And suddenly you go, oh, my God, you agree with me.

[83:16]

You can see the agreement when they say, no, I don't. like you say, I'm listening to you, and the person says, don't listen to me, and you do, and you can see that they wanted you to. So, again, we're learning, we're in the process of learning that everybody wants to be in attunement with us, but they don't necessarily know it. Everybody wants us to listen to them, but they don't necessarily know it. Everybody wants to tell us something, but we don't want to listen to it. I mean, we don't know, we want to listen to it. We're learning reality. We're learning the samadhi. We're learning the backward step, which turns the light around and shines it back and studies our discriminations about presence or absence of detunement. We're seeing, oh, that looked pretty attuned there. That looked not attuned. But here's a difficult point, is that although when it looks not attuned...

[84:20]

It is. Behind that, it's attuned. When it looks like it is attuned, well then, it's true. It is attuned, but the way it looks attuned is not the way it is attuned. So if I think, oh, we're in a good attunement, practice compassion towards that. If I think we're not, practice compassion towards that. And we open to the actual attunement, which is non-stop. The mind, the uninterrupted mind, is the mind of Buddha Samadhi, which is in attunement with everything, which is in accord with everything. That's uninterrupted. And it doesn't exclude discriminations. But if we're caught by discriminations, we become exiled from that uninterrupted Buddha mind. And again, We're not trying to get rid of the discriminations which, if we grasp them, will exile us.

[85:24]

We're trying to notice, did I grasp that discrimination? And check it out to see if it exiled you. And, you know, maybe sometimes it won't, if we don't want to be too hard-line about this. But you may notice that when discriminations are held to, that it creates disturbance. And then you say, but when I'm kind to the discrimination, I hold to it less. Yeah. Not to get rid of it, just be kind to it, and then I'm not so much a slave of it. But we have discriminations. If we're not kind to them, we will become their slaves. If we are kind to them, we together with them will become free without getting rid of them and without them getting rid of us. Is that, like, clear to somebody? Yes? Did I miss anybody before Linda?

[86:25]

She's a newcomer. I think I, yeah. In the passage that we read at the beginning of the class, it says something like, when I'm suffering or something like that is the result of my own evil karma. Doesn't it say something like that? That's, yeah, something like that, yeah. Yeah. The idea that we are not, that we're brought forth by everybody, not by ourselves. Does it contradict it? Yeah. Well, I don't see it. I see I'm brought forward by everybody to think that I do things by myself. Me, who thinks he can do things by himself, that person did not make himself. How does it happen?

[87:26]

You could say that, but what it actually says is that my karma has become an obstacle in practicing the way. And that's because my past action has made me a person who doesn't see obstruction to the way as an opportunity. So because in the past, when I saw obstruction, I didn't say thank you very much. Now when I see obstruction, I also don't say thank you very much. However, I ask the Buddhist to help me be compassionate to my obstructions. And if I'm compassionate to my obstructions, that's not evil karma. And then the obstructions melt away. But if I don't practice with what's given to me, then what's given to me seems like an obstruction.

[88:34]

And not practicing is unskillful action. And I don't make myself the person I am right now. I'm made by the things I've done in the past. But right now I hear the teaching that what I do now will influence my ability to practice in the future. So if I see an obstruction, I ask the teachers to help me be compassionate to my obstruction. And by being compassionate to my obstruction, I will be able to be compassionate to my obstruction again and again. And then it's not that there'll be no obstructions. It's just that I'll more consistently be compassionate when people disagree with me, actually tell me they want to frustrate me. I'll be able to see, oh, opportunity, opportunity, opportunity. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. You are my friend. And I don't go around thinking you're my friend.

[89:39]

I more like just say thank you And then I realize that you're my friend. If I think you're my friend and then I don't say thank you, then I lose my friend. You look like you have 1,000 questions. Well, I agree. I agree and I said you look that way. I didn't say you are. I said, you're just making faces like, I have a lot of things I could say, but I'm letting you finish your sentence. Doesn't it say our? Does it say our? I don't know, but at the beginning, at the beginning of the text, he definitely says... I vow.

[90:39]

I changed I to we, because I thought maybe the people will feel like, wait a minute, I'm not saying I vow to, from this life on through all countless lives, to hear the Dharadharma. I'm okay with we, or anyway, you. I haven't gone that far, but anyway, in the original it does say I. I vow. There's a place for I, and it's in the consciousness. Our consciousness has an I in it, and we're trying to be compassionate to that I. We're trying to turn the light around and shine it back on the consciousness where there's an I, where there's a me, where there's a self, and illuminate that, which will bring freedom from affliction. Yes? Yes? began practicing 50 years ago, and the world was not in the state it is now.

[91:46]

Is there a difference in how you practice now, like your hair's on fire more, or like the world's hair is on fire more, or does that not really matter, that if we're studying what we're studying here, none of that affects you as a practitioner? That's my question. I wouldn't say that what seems to be going on in this world doesn't affect me, but I would say if by any chance the world had become... the global warming had not happened... And if there were less wars now and less oppression and less injustice, if that had happened, if that seemed to have happened since when I first started practicing, I would practice the same way as I'm practicing now.

[92:48]

So if the level of injustice raises, would I practice the same? Maybe I would practice with a little bit less distraction. But maybe not. Maybe I would get more tense and forget to practice. I'm not sure. When things get really... What I want to do is... When I first started practice, what I wanted to do was to learn a way to practice when things got worse. If they did. I didn't want to practice in a way that I would be able to do if things got easier. I could see that I was doing kind of okay. I had kind of a very fortunate life. But I saw examples of people who could keep practicing when misfortune comes on really strong. So I didn't know the problems that the world was going to get into, but I knew the world had plenty of problems.

[93:51]

And I knew that I, yeah, like for example, one time, I told somebody recently, one time I was driving, they were telling me about this rough neighborhood in Minneapolis. And I said, I used to live there. And they were telling me lots of poor indigenous people live in that neighborhood. I said, I lived in that neighborhood. And when I lived there, there were poor indigenous people living there. But I lived in a nice apartment in that really kind of poor neighborhood. And one day I was riding home to my, I was in graduate school, I was riding home, I was fortunate enough to be in graduate school at a nice university, and I had a motor scooter. It was a Vespa, but it cost like $75. No, they cost $3,000. Anyway, I was driving my Vespa home. I was a fortunate person. And I drove by a bar, which was one block from my house, and outside that bar were lots of indigenous people

[94:55]

who were fighting with each other, who were drunk and disorderly. And I drove by and I had this feeling like, I don't want these people in my apartment. And I felt like, I don't want to be that way. I don't want to be the way I am. When I don't want certain people in my apartment, I don't want to be that way. So that was a motivation for me to learn to practice. So now, if I see people and I don't want them in my house or I don't want to be their friend, I would still want to practice. And that's a tough situation to be in a place where lots of people are fighting and stuff. But if that gets worse, I would think, What I want is, if it gets worse, if it gets more violent, if possible, even more I want to be their friends. If there becomes more injustice, I even more want to be friends to the injustice.

[96:01]

I want to be friends to those who are being treated unjustly and those who are being unjust. I more want to be friends with them. But if things stay the same, I also want to be more their friends. So I guess what I wanted at the beginning was what I still want. I want to be able to respond with asodeska. I want to be able to respond to whatever level of suffering there is, I want to respond to it skillfully and compassionately. That's what I... I'm not saying I was that way. Matter of fact, I saw I wasn't that way and I wanted to be and I felt ashamed that I wasn't. And I thought maybe Zen practice will help me be more compassionate. Maybe it has. I don't know who's in charge of judging whether it has.

[97:04]

Some people say, anyway, you're a little less compassionate than you were 50 years ago. Some other people say, you're a little better. But a lot of people can see I'm trying. You're not too good, but you're trying. I can see you're making an effort to be more compassionate. Some people are pretty compassionate, but they're not making an effort to be more compassionate. That's not the right spirit. It's better to be kind of like pretty lousy and want to be more compassionate than being pretty compassionate and saying, I'm good enough. that's no good. But all the lowly people like me who want to be bodhisattvas, that's good. And if it gets worse, I still want to. And has it gotten worse? I don't know. It seems like some things are worse, but I don't know.

[98:07]

I was born in the middle of the Second World War. Has it gotten worse than that? I don't know. I was born before You know, the atomic bomb blew up those people in Japan. Has it gotten worse? I don't know. Was it bad? It was horrible. I was born in the middle of global horror. And I still live in the middle of global horror. And I don't see that I'm going to be moving to a planet where there isn't something I take on. So if we make some changes and things get more harmonious with the environment, I would be very happy. We all would. Of course. But however it goes, I want to be the person like Hakuen. I want to be somebody who's there with whatever's happening with compassion. So the practice that I've been wanting to do has been the same for 50 years. I'm working at it.

[99:09]

If things get worse, will I work at it more? I hope so. Like Suzuki Roshi said one time, after he almost drowned in the river at Tassajara, he almost drowned, he said, after that I really started to practice. He said that in a lecture in Sashin. And then at dinner after the Sashin was over, somebody said, Roshi, you said after that you started to practice But weren't you already practicing? He said, yeah, but then I really started to practice. So I hope that if more shocks come, my response will be, I want to practice more. Andrea? How can I be compassionate towards the discriminations I'm addicted to?

[100:11]

For instance, I really like to do writing. When I'm wrong, I find that I sometimes lie because I want to be right. Yeah, well, you start with generosity. So you notice, oh, there's a discussion. Not only do I think I'm right, because how can I help but think I'm right? I am. What can I say? I'm right. It just happens to be what's going on. However, not only am I right, but I notice I'm always right. And I notice I really like to be right. And I notice I really don't want to admit that I'm not right. Not only am I right, but I think maybe I'm addicted to it. And I'm pretty successful. My addiction is pretty successful because I'm right. So now we've noticed the addiction. Now we got it out in front. When the addiction to being right is in the back, it'll destroy us, as Jesus said.

[101:16]

But if you can get that addiction out in front, then we can practice compassion with it. And the first thing to do, if I see... It's pretty easy to see other people's addiction to being right. But when I see my own addiction... It's out in front now. Now I would say, thank you very much. You're welcome to be here. Addiction to being right. Yeah, you're welcome to be here. And you say that and you think, well, I didn't mean it. So you say it again and you say it again. And the time comes when you actually will welcome that addiction to being right. And then you other people who come to see you who have addiction, maybe not addiction, but anyway, maybe they're not addicted, but right now anyway, they are making the case that they're right. Maybe they're not addicted to it, but they're certainly making the case strongly that they're right and actually that what they're saying is really interesting, so they're going to keep talking, even though you would like them to give you a break.

[102:22]

Maybe they're addicted to being right, so then can you welcome them? Some people have easier to welcome other people's addiction to being right than their own and vice versa. But anyway, in both directions, inwardly and outwardly, let's welcome it. Next, practice ethics with it. Don't try to kill the addiction to being right. Don't say bad things about it. Addiction to being right isn't necessarily an insult. Don't deny it. Don't try to control it. You know, don't slander it. Don't intoxicate yourself in relationship to it. Don't misuse sexuality in relationship to it. I mean, some people could misuse sexuality when they notice that they're addicted to something and the pain is so strong that they use sex to distract themselves from it.

[103:25]

So anyway, be respectful of the addiction. Be tender with it and gentle with it and careful of it. And then be patient with it because it's painful. It's alienating. It's isolating. With these practices, again, you get warmed up to be able to now relax with it. And if you can relax with it, you can play with it and be creative with it. You make art out of your addictions and then be free of them. Yes? Patience is not the same as waiting, yeah. Well, like if I'm in pain, if I'm in pain, I find that I want to practice patience with it.

[104:28]

If I remember to practice patience, then what I do is I try to be in the present with the pain. And if I'm able to be in the present with the pain, it doesn't get rid of the pain, but it's like the coolest place to be. in the flames of pain, the coolest place is in the present. And if I find that cool place, I'm still in pain, but among the various places to be with my pain, the present is the best. And not only the present, but the smallest tiny bit of presence, the very much now, the this pulse, This throb, this throb, this throb. That's the best, easiest place to be with the pain. And if I'm there for a while, I actually start calming down with the pain. And maybe even start to relax with the pain. One of the advantages of pain is that it tends to help you be focused.

[105:30]

So that's the nice thing about pain is it can help focus. Even if you want a daydream, sometimes it won't let you. So anyway, thanks for helping me focus, pain, and I'm going to be in the present with you. And I have the experience that if I can be in the present with my pain, if I then think of how long it's going to last, it flares up. And if I think of how long it's been going on, it flares up. It's not so much that it flares up, but I flare up. In a sense, I'm becoming inflated. There's inflammation going on. So for me, practicing patience is like trying to be very much here and now with the pain. And it's not so much thinking, well, how much longer is this going to go on? Or I'll just wait here patiently until it goes away. For me, that makes it harder than just like, okay, Okay, let's do this.

[106:34]

Let's do this pain thing because this is what's happening. And then, of course, just why not relax with it? That's okay. Relaxing doesn't mean the same as trying to get rid of it. And then once I start relaxing with it, then look, some wonderful possibilities occur without the pain going away. Some pains are not going away. And Sukershi was in big pain when he was dying. Buddha was in pain when he was dying. A number of wonderful practitioners were in pain while they were dying. And Sukershi did a nice job of teaching me how to be with... I didn't think of him practicing patience, but he was very much just there with it. Kind of low-key. A lot of pain, but low-key, just like he was just there with his pain, and he'd let me watch him. Let me watch how he dealt with his pain. He had liver cancer. I don't know if they had pain medication for liver cancer. Anyway, he wasn't taking any pain medication. He was pretty uncomfortable and he was pretty cool with it.

[107:40]

And he had the pain pretty much all the way to the end. And Buddha had pain all the way to the end. But there was still Suzuki Roshi and there was still Buddha. And they were still teaching patience and wisdom. And also, another good thing about patience is not so much waiting, but anyway, it's essential for wisdom to practice patience. And I remember over the years at Zen Center, not so much lately, but like 20 years ago or something, some people would come and see me who were really angry about this or that. And I brought up this practice called patience. And they acted like they never heard of it. It's like, what? What's that? So I've been bringing it up more for a few decades because people sometimes forget that that's part of the deal of practice is patience.

[108:44]

And they often think it's like grin and bear or wait for it to be over. And I say, no, I don't think that's, that's not how I practice it anyway. Yes? Do I get it if you are proposing like fake it till you make it? Well, not fake it. Try it. But don't fake it. Just try it. Like practice loving kindness until you mean it. I'm not saying kid yourself. Like saying welcome and think that you really did welcome when you didn't feel it. You didn't really mean it. But say it to yourself when something difficult comes. Just say welcome. And maybe you feel like, I don't really feel very welcome anymore. But you're not really faking it, you're trying it. That didn't work. I said welcome, but I didn't mean it. And you say it again, and you say it again. That time I actually meant it. And then you say it again, and you don't mean it.

[109:50]

And you say it again, and you do. It's kind of like fake it till you make it, but it's not really fake it, it's try it. Try to welcome affliction and insult and injustice. Not like it, welcome it. And when you finally can welcome it, then you can move on to respect it and be gentle with it and be nonviolent with it. But again, you're trying to be respectful. So you say, you think, I want to respect you. You think about somebody. Or you could say, respect her, respect him, respect him. But I don't. Well, try it again. One time Gregory Bateson interviewed some Japanese people, a Japanese woman and her mother. And he was talking to her about her practice of respecting her father.

[110:52]

And I think he said to her, is your father worthy of the respect? And she said, no. But it's good for us to practice respect of somebody who's not worthy of it. We've practiced respect of a person who's being unjust. It's good for me. And then that will translate. Then I can approach that person with respect. An unjust person who is treated with respect might listen to the person who's talking to them. I just again thought of... Sarah showed me this letter from Martin Luther King, which he wrote when he was in jail in Birmingham. And I heard a story about the lawyer who got him out of jail, Donald Hollywood. No, Holywood. And Donald Hollywood was a really upright guy who knew how to firmly, courageously meet judges, but he knew how to respect them so they would listen to him.

[112:10]

And it doesn't mean every judge he talked to would listen to him. But if he didn't respect those people, they wouldn't listen to him. But by respecting people, they start to listen to us. So again, that's how to do it. And at first you don't respect. And many people say it to me, I can't respect that person. But can you respect your inability to respect? And they often say, yeah. I can't be compassionate to her, they say. Can you be compassionate to your inability to be compassionate? They often say, yeah, I can. I can accept that I'm not compassionate to that person. But sometimes they say, I can't be compassionate to her. And I say, can you be compassionate to your lack of compassion? They say, no. And then we just keep working until we find something. Something they can be compassionate with.

[113:13]

And that's where we start. And then we work on that. And it spreads. and it will eventually spread. It will eventually spread to Buddha Samadhi. You will eventually be able to respect even so-and-so. But respect doesn't mean you like them. It isn't that you like cancer. You respect it. You study it. The people who The really good investigators of cancer are people who respect it. They study it. They give their life to getting to know it. They don't hate it. Maybe they do hate it, but I would say their hate interferes with their wisdom. So, I don't like cancer, I don't like mental illness, I don't like cruelty, I don't like injustice, I don't like attachment, I don't like misery, but I respect all those things. Almost like, you know, they're gods and goddesses.

[114:17]

But I don't like war, but I respect it. And if I respect war, maybe war will listen to my comment. But again, still, we have a habit when we see war of hating it and fighting it, which just increases it. And I was born in the middle of a terrible war where people were hating each other and killing each other. But even then, in the middle of all that, sometimes in the middle of a terrible battle, American soldiers looked at Japanese soldiers and respected them and said, yeah, rather than I hate the Japanese, I've got to say I respect them.

[115:23]

Well, yeah. Why not? Why not respect our enemies? Why not love our enemies? We don't have to teach children to hate their enemies. We have to teach them to love their enemies. And that's the hard thing to learn. It's not difficult. People don't seem to have trouble hating. So we don't have to work at that. That's what I think. I think what we have to work at is respect and tenderness with all beings. With no exception. But I'm not there yet. And maybe some of you aren't there yet either. But some of you are pretty good. Some of you are pretty respectful. And pretty tender, I'm impressed.

[116:29]

I hope you continue and expand your respect and tenderness forever.

[116:40]

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