the teachings on the direct realization of awakening, I felt brought forth lots of good conversation. And I think there's more to work on that particular kind of short teaching. But before going more into that, I wanted to give an overview of these two ways and kind of two aspects of this practice of direct realization. Two aspects of right here hitting the mark, right here settling down.

[01:05]

And the two aspects are, again, once in the words of Dogen, meeting the teacher and listening to the teaching. That's one aspect. The other aspect is wholehearted sitting meditation. And I wanted to say a little bit about the word meditation, which is a translation of the word Zen. Zen. Here's a story about the history of the word Zen. Before there was, you know, word around in China of a Zen school or Zen people. in the lineage that we are particularly closely related to.

[02:07]

There was another school that had been established and that school was called, well, even it became called Tien Tai because it was kind of, it really was founded and became well established on a mountain called Mount Tien Tai. And the founding teacher, even though he had teachers before him, the person who really built the teaching of that school was named Jiri, Jiri. And he called, he called this sort of, a kind of a nickname for his overall teaching was Zen, or in Chinese, Chan. That's what he called his teaching for short. And he was a Chan master. He was a Zen master.

[03:10]

Because he taught Zen. But he used Zen as the overall term for Buddhist practice. And this overall practice had two aspects. One called Jur in Chinese, the other called Guan. And Jur Guan is a translation of Sanskrit. The Sanskrit is shamatha and vipassana. So he taught shamatha and vipassana. And at the beginning he called Zen that practice. But then he changed and started to call it in two words. He called the whole practice Jirdwan or Samatha Vipassana.

[04:14]

This is kind of a joke, but not really. Since the word Zen, since nobody was using the word Zen anymore, they started to use it for this other school. And, you know, they called the school the Zen school, the Chan school, the meditation school. Of course, Tintai was a meditation school too. But Tintai emphasized this jirguan. And jir means shamatha. In other words, tranquility, calming. And guan is vipassana, which means insight. So they presented the practice in some ways more in line with traditional Indian Mahayana and also other schools, the pre-Mahayana calming practices and insight practices. The Zen school almost never says, presents itself.

[05:23]

I shouldn't say the Zen school. The people of our family tradition almost never talk about calming and insight. And almost never say, shamatha and vipassana. I propose to you, and I will show you my thoughts, that we do have these two aspects. What two aspects? Calming and insight. and how they work together. We do have that but again in our tradition you don't find those Indian terms and you don't find even the Sanskrit or the Chinese terms of calming and insight. And again you can make various theories about why not and one theory would be so that their teaching of this new school not so much newer than Tiantai, but somewhat newer, that this new school was doing something quite different from the Tiantai school.

[06:29]

And the Tiantai school did a really good job of teaching these two aspects of practice. So if you start talking about them, you're not going to be able to say much that can compete with them. So they took a whole different tendency or direction, but still used those two basic things. And they added in very creative reworkings of the practice and became the most successful. after two or three hundred years, all monastic Buddhism really in China was Zen. And the Tendai was kind of in the background. So I guess I would just maybe start by saying that when Dogen presents meeting the teacher and listening to the teaching, and I mentioned to you before that that Chinese character, which is translated into English as listening, that character also means to ask.

[07:39]

It means to listen and ask. You don't just listen to the teacher. You say, what does that mean, teacher? Or could you say more about that? Or is this this or is that? So it's actually, it's going to meet, and the word meet in this phrase, going to meet the teacher, that word also means practice. And it also means difference. So it's the character and The merging of difference and unity, it's the character that's used for difference or multiplicity. So it means difference, multiplicity, it means three, and it means to practice or meet. That's the character. So go and meet the teacher, go practice with the teacher, and go kind of like be individual with the teacher.

[08:42]

that practice can be broken up into two parts. And the two parts, oh, excuse me, and that practice, I would suggest, is, sets up the practice of vipassana, sets up the practice of insight. Because insight, vipassana, is based on hearing the teaching and discussing the teaching and analyzing the teaching. And now I'm going to connect with three types of insight which are present before the rise of the Mahayana, but the Mahayana really emphasizes these three types of wisdom or three types of insight.

[10:01]

I'll just say them, and if you need me to, I'll write them down in Sanskrit. But in English, they are wisdom emerging from listening. Again, I would say listening and asking. Wisdom emerging from listening to another. Listening to the teaching from another. Asking for the teaching. Listening to the teaching. Asking about the teaching. That's the first type of wisdom arises from this dialogue of listening and asking for teaching. In Sanskrit, shruta-mahe prajna. Wisdom that emerges from listening. That's the first aspect, the first type of wisdom. The second type is wisdom that arises from thinking.

[11:06]

But thinking is short for investigating. Investigating what? The teaching which you've listened to. And not only listened to, but had insight with. And that's called Chintamaya Prajna. The first aspect of this working with the teacher is to receive from the other. The second aspect is to make it your own by internally working it and thinking about it. Of course, you continue as you work with it to go back to the teacher and check out insights that have arisen as you contemplated these teachings which you have understood. But the Chintamai is actually talking about after you've actually had some insight into what you've heard. And insight is sometimes like this. You hear something, you think you understand it, and then you realize you don't.

[12:11]

And then you listen some more, and you realize you do. And then you realize you don't. And then finally you feel pretty confident that you understand. And you've checked it out. But you're basically checking out what you've received. And you feel like you understand it. And you didn't understand it before. And you can actually sometimes, in the simple story, you can not understand it, and suddenly you do. And you feel like a different person. And you have a, you have an experience of the teaching which you never had before. It's fresh, unprecedented, and valid. And you can check it out with the source, with the teacher, and with the scriptures. Then the next, based on that insight, then you do further work. And that work, you're not really, it's not so much getting things from other, it's getting things from everything, your whole body and mind. You start to integrate with this previous insight and you get another insight.

[13:17]

And that's called insight arising from study or, you know, thinking. Chintamaya Prajna. This work can be done in an ordinary state of mind, in other words, in a mind that's not tranquil, a mind that's not calm and concentrated. It can be done with such a mind. Can I use this chair? Maybe this is to Julian's chair. Can I use your chair, Julian? Can I use this chair? Can I use your chair? Lando, can I use your son?

[14:18]

Thank you. This is part of going to meet the teacher, right? I would include this chintamaya process as part of going to meet the teacher side of things. It's not exactly clear because, again, Dogen didn't make a clear association between these three kinds of wisdom and going to see the teacher. But anyway, it's over on the side. These first two types of wisdom are over on the side of how you receive the teaching and work with the teaching, not necessarily in a state of tranquility. This is not yet vipassana. This is the background for vipassana. The next phase then in the practice that Dogen is presenting is called wholehearted sitting.

[15:22]

And in a way, that corresponds to shamatha, where you actually practice calming. When you are calm, you have calm. Then the next step is, based on that calm, you then consider the teaching in that calm. Calm alone is not sufficient to, for example, not try to change your body and mind. and directly realize the way. In order to practice that direct realization, you need some teaching about that practice, which you've heard something about.

[16:30]

And when you've heard enough about that teaching, then in a calm mind, you can contemplate that teaching. And then you will understand, which you already understand. And then you understand it in a more total way. You'll understand it in a new world of calm. And that's vipassana. So this wholehearted sitting is, this wholehearted Zen, is sitting, but it's also, its content is the teaching. And the teaching is there to teach you how to deal with all the contents of your body and mind. That's the vipassana. When we're working with, when we're listening to the teaching and we're not in a state of tranquility, then, strictly speaking, that's not called vipassana. It's not insight.

[17:33]

It's learning, it's listening, but it's not... You can't see things the way you can when you're calm, when you're not calm. But once you have received some teachings, like this in this intensive, a simple teaching has been given, now you and I and everybody can work together to understand this teaching. And then we can look at that teaching in a state of tranquility. And that's insight. So there you have in the first part of seeing the teacher, it's not vipassana yet. It's when you see what you've learned in the whole heart of sitting that it becomes vipassana. Then you have the tranquility and the vipassana, and then you go back and forth between the two. Because you need to reiterate, you need to continue the practice of calming, so then you're calm.

[18:34]

and then you look at the teaching and then you calm and you look at the teaching. So the calming and insight can occur in the zendo. You can practice calm here and insight. and the insight is your understanding of the Dharma in that calm mind. And then you can continue your study of the Dharma, hearing new Dharma, hearing new teachings, and again, listening to them until you understand them, and then contemplating them on your own, and then that insight then goes into the calm And each teaching that you look at goes through this same phase of receiving it from the Buddha and the tradition, listening to it, questioning it, analyzing it, investigating it, experimenting with it, relating it to all aspects of your life, having insight, and then sit with it.

[19:52]

You know, become it. Not just mentally, but physically. Have your body enter it, have it enter your body. And then you just go back and forth with that with every teaching, And some people call the working with them together, shamatha vipashyana yugananda. In other words, the blissful union of calming and insight. But there's actually, and this teaching is given in the Samdhi Nirmacana Sutra, and also it's given in Chapter 7, and also I have this little book which maybe help you to understand this teaching of Samatha and Vipassana.

[21:03]

But the sutra says, first of all you do, you listen to the teaching, Then you practice shamatha. Then you practice vipassana. Then you practice shamatha. Then you practice vipassana. Then you do them at the same time. Then you unite them. So after a while, your calming is insight and your insight is calming. At first, insight work is different from calming work. Insight work, you're using your intellect to receive and question the teaching, to analyze, to investigate. You're using your thinking to do that. and it's quite a different activity and it's not usually calming when you're first listening to the teaching. It may be quite agitating, in which case maybe you should stop listening for a little while. But it's not a calming practice.

[22:05]

It's using discursive thought to understand the teaching at the first two levels of insight. Traumatic practice we are not using our intellect except to the extent of suggesting to let go of the intellect. Let go of thinking. Give up discursive thought. And the more we diligently give up discursive thought, the calmer we become. It doesn't mean no discursive thought. It means when discursive thought comes up, which is most moments of consciousness, we learn how to relax with it and let it go. And one of the teachings that you can listen to and question and understand is how to let go of discursive thought.

[23:09]

So there's also teachings about how to practice shamatha. And I just gave you some from the sutra. And then if you understood the instructions, you could then sit down and follow the instructions about how not to think about the instructions and calm down. So I've given you this previous teaching about the direct realization. Now I just gave you a very brief teaching about Samatha, about how to practice Samatha. So let's say you're successful in receiving the teaching about Samatha. You understood it. You practiced it and became calm. And then, in your calm, you'll have a deeper insight about your understanding of Samatha than you had before.

[24:19]

And that will be Vipassana. And in fact, many of us do that. We hear about, for example, practicing wholehearted sitting. We hear about it. We ask about it. We think about it. We try to practice it. I should say, we hear about it, we think about it, we feel like we understand it, and we feel, yeah, and we do. And then we kind of give up that thinking about it, but we still have our understanding. And we give up thinking about everything else without pushing anything away. We just give up all of our thinking. We calm down. And then we have a new understanding of wholehearted sitting, in the wholehearted sitting, in the tranquility of wholehearted sitting. So the wholehearted sitting is, it's like digesting something. It's not just wholehearted sitting, but just wholehearted sitting with no content

[25:25]

is not what we're talking about in Mahayana Buddhism. We're talking about wholehearted sitting calmly with the teaching as the subject of contemplation. And the teaching about everything that comes up in the mind and body. For example, the teaching which says, no matter what comes up, use that. and apply that teaching, which you now understand, hopefully, in a calm mind. And then we have insight. And then go back to the next teaching, because every moment there might be teachings arising in the mind, in the body-mind. So this is in the Mahayana Sutras. And again, I expanded on that a little bit in the book, Third Turning of the Wheel.

[26:30]

And now I'm talking to you about it here. And I'm suggesting that this process, this traditional Mahayana meditative yogic process, is present in Dogen's teaching of meeting the teacher, practicing with the teacher, and listening and asking about the teaching, together with wholehearted sitting. The two together. And he doesn't say it right here, but basically the two actually, he kind of says it, they become integrated, the two. So they're not really two different aspects, the going to the teacher and the wholehearted sitting. They become integrated. And another kind of sudden deepening of this teaching about calming and observing.

[27:36]

Calming and observing. Calming and observing. That's like at the level of practice, at the level of cause. Then there's the next level, which is the level of effect. Okay, so number one, calming and observing. Level two, calm or tranquility and insight. Calming and calm, observing and insight. Next level, Silence and stillness. Excuse me. Silence and stillness, or silence, and illumination. So there's calming, calm, silence. Observing, insight, illumination. First level, the cause.

[28:42]

Second level, the effect. Third level, the reality of life is stillness and illumination. And we work ourselves into reality by these two practices and these two results. Once again, I feel this is in Zen, the Zen teaching, it's just not articulated this way. But I wish to articulate this way so you're able to unite Zen with traditional Mahayana Buddhist yogic practices. And it's not too late for the Zen students to pay respects to the tradition which Zen was born of and where it gets almost all of its stuff. So again, I'm combining, again, three levels of insight with these two aspects of Zen, or the two aspects of Zen being calming and insight, or calming and observing, calm and insight.

[30:17]

And so, I guess, big question is, how do you practice it? And is there any questions about how to practice? Please, let's hear your questions, if you have any. Please come up. Use the microphone. So you talk about content and contemplation. Because what? So you mentioned the words content and contemplation as being present during meditation. What... If one is cultivating non-thinking, what is the content?

[31:28]

What are you contemplating? Did you say non-thinking? Yeah. There's a story where that expression non-thinking comes from. And I would intend to bring that story up. But for now, let me just say that in the way of the word we have, we have thinking, not thinking, and non-thinking. Non-thinking is not not thinking. In my understanding, non-thinking is the way of relating to thinking, wherein we will realize the true nature of thinking. Namely, that it's not what we think it is. It's not thinking. So if you're using the word non-thinking as not thinking, I can do that. But I just want to point out, when you use the word non-thinking, you're bringing up kind of a technical term.

[32:31]

And it comes from this context. So if what you mean by non-thinking is that there isn't any thinking, we can work with that. Is that what you meant by it? I don't know. I'm thinking, when I'm on the cushion, contemplating the words of the Dharma. Yes. Right? Yeah. Is that good practice? Should I be trying to get beyond thinking about the words of the Dharma? If you're on a cushion, sitting upright or walking around and you've got some Dharma teachings in your consciousness and you're contemplating them,

[33:35]

You can understand this teaching if you treat the words in your mind with compassion. And treating what's in your mind with compassion, including being calm with it, will reveal to you the reality of the teaching that's in your consciousness. So for most of us, almost all the time when we're sitting, there's thinking going on in our consciousness. And the thinking could be about a teaching which we've been thinking about a lot. And then we're thinking about the teaching and we come in the room and sit down and we continue to think about it a lot. Non-thinking is the way of dealing with that thinking you're doing in such a way that you realize a whole new world of that thinking, which is that really, really that thinking is not thinking.

[34:46]

I mean, most of what that is, is not that. And you'll wake up to that. And the way you wake up to it is by non-thinking the thinking. And non-thinking means to practice great compassion with your thinking. And it includes being calm with your thinking. and being diligent with your thinking and being patient with your thinking and being, you know, respectful and careful of your thinking. All those practices are non-thinking. and applying that non-thinking to your thinking, which is going on, including thinking about the Dharma. So I understand the Dharma to some extent, I'm thinking about it, and then I practice with myself having this thinking about the Dharma. And in that practice I realize that what I have here, this thinking that I have about the Dharma, is not that.

[35:54]

And this is the illumination which doesn't get rid of what I used to think, but shows that what I think is always in pivotal relationship with not what I'm thinking or not thinking. Thank you. And that reminds me that I was also going to mention that we chanted the Fukunzazengi yesterday and it says, in this translation it says, you are maintaining the essential working of the Buddha way when you're practicing wholehearted sitting. When you're doing that, your thinking is not thinking. Your thinking, when you're really wholeheartedly practicing with your thinking, When you're calm with your thinking, when you're generous with your thinking, when you're careful and tender with your thinking, when you're patient with your thinking, the world of your thinking being not thinking opens up.

[37:12]

that relationship between thinking opening to non-thinking, not thinking, and not thinking opening to thinking, that is the pivotal, that is the essential working of the Buddha way. Another translation would be pivotal activity in the Buddha way. This is the pivotal activity, but it's the essential activity of Zazen, is that what's going on in your head is pivoting with what's not going on with your head. And to realize how the whole universe is pivoting with your thinking, we need to practice non-thinking with our thinking. which connects to, you need teachings about how that is, and then you need to sit calmly and generously and patiently and so on with your thinking in order to realize the pivotal activity of the Buddha way.

[38:18]

And in the translation of the Fukanzazengi that we have, one time it says essential working of the Buddha way, and the other time it says pivotal opportunity. So the terms appears at least twice in the Fukanzazengi describing what's going on in our Zazen practice in reality. In reality, our body is pivoting with not our body. Our mind is pivoting with not our mind. Our feelings are pivoting with not our feelings. And our overall conscious composition, our thinking, is pivoting with not thinking. That's what's going on in Zazen. The thinking is pivoting with not thinking. And the way we realize how thinking is pivoting with not thinking, and not thinking is pivoting with thinking, and by the way, not thinking is the whole universe, right?

[39:32]

Everything, the whole universe, whatever thinking I've got, and that's that, and then everything else in the universe is not that. So my thinking is pivoting with the whole universe, and the whole universe is pivoting with my thinking and your thinking. That is the pivotal activity of the Buddha way. And to open to that, we practice non-thinking. But I was going to make that a separate class, and it still will be, maybe, if we live that long. Melina, did you have your hand raised? And then after that, Kat? Yes, please come, Melina and Sala. So those three. What's your name? Steve. OK, Steve, you're fourth. And here's Melina. You've made clear that this is a teaching of the Mahayana?

[40:58]

Well, some of this is not just Mahayana, but it's very important in Mahayana, and maybe not quite as important, perhaps, in some other earlier teachings. But it's already present in earlier teachings, too, because it's basically tranquility practices and insight practices that's there before. But the Mahayana also emphasizes these three aspects of wisdom which I don't see so much in the early teaching. So my question is about beneficial conduct with others. Yes. And if you could speak a bit about where in our practice of layering insight and calm emerges an interaction with other beings.

[42:13]

Okay. That is beneficial. Hear what she said? So my first response is, the way of dealing with your thinking is exactly the way of dealing with so-called other people because other people are in your consciousness. So like right now, you're in my consciousness and you would be something that I would want to practice non-thinking with. So I want to practice generosity with you I want to be respectful and gentle with you. I want to be patient with you. I want to be diligent with you. I want to be calm with you. And also, if I had a pain in my mind, which I might not call you, I want to practice the same way with the pain in my mind. And if I have a teaching, I want to practice the same way with the teaching. Everything in consciousness that appears is something that I discuss with the teacher and integrate with my whole life and do these practices with that.

[43:24]

And particularly the calming practices will take me, take the meditation to deeper levels. But before even becoming calm, you can do all these practices. So working with others means work with the part of your body-mind which is called others. My experience of you right now is actually a body-mind. It's this body-mind experiencing what it thinks is another body-mind. And so you can sit without really, yeah, you can sit and think about other people and do practices with them even though you're not talking to them or interacting with them, you know, verbally. You can do these practices with everybody that comes up in your mind. And then when you sort of have the person in the room with you, you can do the same practices. Yeah.

[44:28]

with our speech, using our speech. Our speech? You said we can do the same practices with other people in the room. Yeah. And I'm asking, is that where speech comes in? Well, speech could be, you could be silent or speaking with someone. Like now I can be talking with you and also being generous to you. I could be like welcoming you while I'm talking to you. I could also be quiet with you, but really be welcoming you. I could be respectful and gentle with you, talking or not talking. I can make gestures in my welcoming of you. I can make gestures in my patience with you. But I can also be still with you. So E, both in movement and stillness, I can do these practices with you. And both in movement and stillness, I can do practices with what I think are me.

[45:34]

And both are necessary. How does that work? And next, I think, Kat. It's good to see you, Rob. I haven't seen you in 13 years. Wow. You haven't aged a day. Since then, I've become a nurse. Wow. I was working in an ICU in New York City during the height of the pandemic. And I saw a lot of death and dying. And during that time, Sorry. While just reflecting on it while sitting.

[46:39]

I don't think it was possible to practice the Buddha way because there was no more compassion and I couldn't sit with a broken heart. And after I leave here, I have to return and I just don't know how to take my practice with me. What did you say that you thought was not helpful under those situations? I just felt like in the state that I was in, there was no calmness. Oh, I see. There was no patience or compassion. Yeah. And I couldn't sit with a broken heart. Mm-hmm. And when I leave here, I'm going to return to New York City. Yes. Now I understand.

[47:41]

So, not being calm is a body-mind, which I might have. Not being patient is a body-mind, which I might have. And someone might say to me, and I might say to you, I'm not patient. And you might say to me, you're not patient? And I might say, no. You might say to me, well, can you be patient with you're not patient? And I might say, yeah, I can. Can you accept that you can't accept? I can't accept that. But can I accept what I can't accept? Yes, I can. I can't be compassionate. Can you accept that you can't be compassionate? Yes. So some bodies and minds, we just say, no, I can't practice with that.

[48:46]

Okay. Can you practice with, no, I can't practice with that? Maybe so. We can find some foothold where we can say, yes, I can be generous. And I can be generous with that I wasn't generous a moment ago. I can be patient with I wasn't patient. The pain was too much. I couldn't be patient. Can you be patient with that? Yes. Broken heart. I can't welcome a broken heart. Okay, can you welcome that you can't welcome? A broken heart is a body-mind. Not being able to welcome it is a body-mind. and being able to accept and welcome that I cannot welcome is another body-mind. So all of us would be tremendously challenged to work where you work.

[49:46]

And we're, you know, we're in awe of your work. And we know that we would have a really hard time too. But having a hard time is a body-mind. And what we're talking about here is, without trying to change that body-mind, practice. Without trying to change the broken heart, directly realize the way. And if you say, I can't, then without changing I can't, practice the body-way. And if you say, I can't, accept that I can't practice with that. Eventually start practicing with somebody in mind in some moment. And that's where we start practicing. And then hopefully can do it again. And again, because these terribly challenging situations like you're telling us about are coming to all of us.

[50:49]

They're going to keep coming. So whenever we have a chance to find something that we can practice with, let's practice with that. And that changes us in such a way that we have a chance of practicing with the next one and the next one and the next one. The more we practice, the more we're transformed into a practitioner. Thanks for coming back. And number three, was that Sala? Yes, please. The microphone helps, doesn't it? Especially with the masks on. Please. Can I sit on your Zabaton, Carolyn?

[51:54]

Of course, everybody who speaks and that dialogue, that dance, I get more of the answers. And listening to Kat just now and realizing that what you were asking me to do when my twin sister died and I was full of more sadness and rage than I can even imagine anymore. And I would rage at you and Linda Ruth and whoever would listen to me. But just staying, you're literally, you're just sitting there and accepting it is... What I did, I mean, that's what you were asking me to do, is to not, you know, to practice right there, not be somebody else, not be somebody whose twin sister didn't die.

[53:13]

Oh, my goodness. Anyway, so listening to Kat and knowing that she can heal because she has this practice. You know, it's just amazing. But that wasn't my question. Sorry. That's my aside, of course. My question is, what's wholehearted sitting? What is it inside out? You know, I kept thinking of, what's the opposite of wholehearted sitting? Trifling sitting? Is that a real word? So wholehearted sitting, in wholehearted sitting, you have a body and mind, and you're not trying to change this body and mind into something else. That's part of wholehearted sitting. You're working with this one.

[54:14]

And you're in an environment of your study... wherein you know that you're a human being and you have a tendency to want to change your body-mind and you're vigilant of that impulse to try to be somebody else. And if that happens, you sort of like be kind to that and then go back to just, hey, this is it, right here, right now. And I'm not going to use anything else to practice my life. I'm sitting here and there's nothing else I'm doing but sitting here. I'm just sitting here." So just sitting, wholehearted sitting, another word would be completely generous sitting. You give yourself completely and there's nothing left. There's just you sitting. But you have to keep doing the practice of giving yourself completely, otherwise the holding something back kicks in.

[55:16]

Or thinking about some other practice that might be better kicks in. or trying to get away from how difficult this one is kicks in. So we have to watch out for that. And that's Dogen saying, you know, by revealing and disclosing our lack of faith in the practice of wholehearted sitting, it melts away the root of trying to have some other practice than this one, some other body than this one, some other sister than this one. That's wholehearted sitting. And in that, we don't get rid of the self. We don't change into a consciousness that doesn't have a self. We become free of the consciousness which has a self. We become free of our thinking. We become free of sitting. Wholehearted sitting is not wholehearted sitting. And when we heartily sit, we realize, oh, it's not that.

[56:18]

And then it is that. Wow. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much. And then, Steve? What time is it, do you think? What time does the kitchen leave? In a few minutes? You leave at 10.15? You have one minute? You're going to go? How much longer will the kitchen be here? An hour? Wow. Steve. Hi. So I had a question, but I'd like to test my understanding through telling you my question and then tell you my thought process, and I'll try to be somewhat brief.

[57:28]

Okay. The question is, how do the forms like chanting and bowing Or do they fit in to one of these categories of direct realization? Are they the teaching and listening or are they sitting wholeheartedly? And my thought process is that in the past, I might have, if somebody woke me up at midnight and asked me, I probably would have said that they're part of wholehearted sitting because a lot of it is taking place the taking in the Dharma sort of subconsciously because you're not so much thinking about what you're saying in the chants and your bowing is a physical manifestation of the Dharma. After having come here and being forbidden to chant, it has become a little bit more of an observation to me where I feel like I'm listening to the words more.

[58:38]

And I feel like after this experience, I'm feeling that it falls more in the category of listening to a teacher and absorbing it and even questioning because I can hear the words more by not being a participant and noticing the physical, lacking the physical aspect of the chanting. Great. Yeah, you're listening. And you're asking, you're listening and asking. And maybe you'll have an insight any minute in this listening to the teaching, like listening to the Heart Sutra. With nothing to attain, a bodhisattva. Oh, wow. Now listening and asking, listening and asking. And then some insight. And then you can go on from there. without doing any chanting. And then also you can continue the practice of listening and asking when you're chanting.

[59:41]

And then also in the other forms too, listen to them, receive them, and question them. And the insight comes about what they are. So it's So it's a little bit of both, but more on the teaching-listening side. It's a little bit of both, but more on the teaching-listening side, even if, even when I go back to being allowed to chant. Yeah, that would be great. I would pray that when you go back to chanting, while you're chanting, you're listening. Mm-hmm. Like we had this expression at Zen Center, chant with your ears. And the character for ear is in the middle of that character, which means go to the teacher and listen. It's got a door with an ear in it. So to chant with our ears, you know, or to chant questioningly, like a

[60:50]

Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva, what? When deeply practiced, what? Prajnaparamita, what? What is this? What's going on in this place? To keep that inquiring spirit and that listening spirit while chanting rather than lose it when we start moving. Try to keep the mindfulness of listening to the teaching when we're like waving our arms and legs and talking. But that's hard. So one of the unintended benefits of the forbidding chanting was this insight to train ourselves to listen more when we're chanting. So that's what we've been having a hard time doing. But those of you who have not been able to chant, maybe you've been more successful at listening to the chanting, which some Zen students don't do. They just chant, but they don't listen. Well, now hopefully they'll start listening and continue when they start chanting.

[61:57]

And also when talking, listen. Talking, listening, yes, no, maybe I've got. I have decided now to stop saying to people when, like, I do some orientation at the place where I practice, and I often say, don't worry about the forms, it's all a form of meditation. And that may be helpful to beginners, but I feel like that's not quite accurate now. because the forms and the meditation can be thought of separately. So I'll still say something welcoming, but I feel like I'm going to change that. It's not all forms of meditation. Anything else at this time? Let's see. What's your name again? Lisa, please come. Yes. this microphone stand, please don't touch these dials.

[63:01]

It's very rickety, so if this thing moves, it's gonna fall over. If you need to adjust it, the adjustment's made here in the middle, and you just loose it and tighten this middle section and raise and lower it to your preference. So Lisa and then John. Thank you. Welcome. I'm still at the stage where it's a teaching here and a teaching there and a teaching there. Yes. And the mind is trying to integrate. Pretty close? Is this better? Thank you. So I'm still at this stage where the teachings to me are here and here and here, and I'm trying to integrate them. And so listening to you this morning talk about thinking, not thinking. in some ways it sounded like they were very separate.

[64:02]

There's thinking and there's everything else in the universe. I'm trying to integrate that with darkness and light of the Sandakai. Are those related? Yeah. Usually we say the thinking is the light and the not thinking is the dark. So right in the thinking, there's not thinking. They're not separate. They're... They're not separate. You can't talk about it. They're integrated. Yeah. Yeah. So... And it says... So right in the not thinking is the thinking. Right in the thinking is the not thinking. But don't try to... When you're looking at the thinking, don't try to find the not thinking in it. Like it says, don't try to look for the light in the dark. It's already there, but don't go look for it. This is a metaphysical teaching about... our psychology. That right in our psychology is not psychology, but that's philosophy, not psychology.

[65:06]

So this is a metaphysical teaching about the relationship between our psychology, our thinking, which we can see and meditate on, and the whole universe, which we can't see the whole universe, we just see our little conscious version of it moment by moment. And we're also being told, but don't go looking for someplace other than your conscious moment for the whole universe. It's right there. And also, looking at the whole universe, don't go looking someplace else for your conscious mind. It's right there. So this is a teaching which is completely integrated. Everything's integrated. Then what is the non-thinking? Non-thinking is the way to relate to your thinking in such a way to realize that it is not thinking. And the way to relate to your thinking, which you've got at your disposal all the time, is to be generous and welcoming.

[66:15]

respectful and gentle and careful and conscientious and patient and diligent and calm with your thinking, then that's non-thinking. That's great compassion. And when you treat your thinking that way, you will realize your thinking is actually the whole universe. And that's the pivotal activity which you will discover and then deal with that pivotal activity with the same non-thinking. And it will go deeper and deeper into our life. And you will become a vessel for this essential working of the Buddha way. Thank you. You're welcome. John? Don't touch that.

[67:46]

If you want to raise it or lower it, why don't you go like this? Down here. Is that good for you now? Yeah, it's great. Respect the teacher, respect the community. The question that came up for me is about the ethical tradition for Tendai. Somewhere in there it goes from being Vinaya to being more like the Brahmajala precept. Yeah. So I wondered how that might relate in there. I can't remember where that changes, but... Yeah. Could you talk about that a little bit? So the... there's this thing called the Vinaya, which is, there's three baskets in Buddhism of the teaching. One basket is the discourses, the sutras. Next basket is the commentaries or the wisdom teachings about the teachings of the sutras, the Abhidharma.

[68:52]

And the third category is the ethical teachings, the Vinaya. And for a long time, The Vinaya was, you know, the basket for the ethical teachings. And then at some point in history, and in particular around 400 AD, a sutra was written called the Brahmanet Sutra, the Brahmajala Sutra. There's an earlier Brahmajala Sutra in the Pali Canon, which is a totally different sutra, but has the same name. In the Brahmanet Sutra, it's about bodhisattva precepts. And the emphasis of these precepts is not on personal virtue. It's not against personal virtue. Personal virtue is virtuous. It's good. But it puts a higher priority on compassion for all beings than on personal virtue. And Tendai used both the early Vinaya, the practices of personal virtue,

[70:00]

It still had them, but it also brought in these bodhisattva precepts which are focusing on developing great compassion, non-thinking. Now, I think it might happen that we'll talk about this more because I'm very, what's the word, I'm deep, I'm up to my eyeballs in the Brahmanet Sutra. So, thank you for bringing it up. Bodhisattva precepts. have a different emphasis from the earlier Vinaya. What's the difference? Do you remember what I said? The Vinaya are about personal virtue. The Bodhisattva precepts are about compassion. Compassion is utmost for the Bodhisattva precepts. Is there anything else this morning? Yes, yes, and yes. So I think it was Christopher, Linda, and Vanessa, I think. Oh, by the way, the Bodhisattva precepts are wholehearted sitting.

[71:15]

My question is about tranquility practice. About what? Tranquility? Tranquility practice. So you mentioned that the process was... Maybe we could say calming practice, which leads to or sets up tranquility. So as a calming practice, my understanding is that from a state of calmness, you contemplate your insights. Yes. I didn't quite follow that. Calming practice? Calming practice is what you do, what you practice in order to become calm. And then once you're calm, you contemplate. Now you're moving on to insight. Yes. So once you're calm, then you contemplate your insights, and from there, new insights emerge. Now, in order to reach a state of calmness, in order to become calm, my understanding is it's helpful to have a one-pointed set of mind.

[72:28]

You can say it's helpful, but that's a definition. When you're calm, you realize the one-pointedness of your mind. So it's helpful, but it's also the same thing. So to become one-pointed, it is helpful to have an object of concentration. Are you using the insight that you generate? You can have an object of concentration. Yes, that's true. But what really calms you down is not the object, but the giving up thinking around the object. So the real calming force or function is giving up thinking, which is usually going on. So usually when an object comes up, it comes up with thinking. There's all kinds of thoughts about it or reactions or emotions or feelings about it. That whole pattern is the thinking. So when a thought comes up or any object, like even your breath or posture, when it comes up,

[73:29]

It's not so much that you focus on the object, but people think, I should focus on the object. But what actually happens sometimes is you focus on the object, and in focusing on the object, you give up your thinking. You let go of your thinking. But there's a problem because then you're stuck on the object. But anyway, for now, just say the main function is you give up thinking. But if having an object to focus on helps you give up your thinking, okay. Are you recommending that the... Do you recommend that the insight that you are contemplating becomes... Like, should that be the object? Could that be used as the object? You could, but usually it's... Not usually, but often, it's easier to calm down when you're just working on letting go of thinking rather than you're also trying to contemplate a teaching. Once you're calm, then you can contemplate the teaching.

[74:34]

And if you're calm and you start contemplating the teaching, you can notice that your calm might start slipping because when you start contemplating the teaching, you might start thinking again. You know, and then you get agitated and then you're not looking at the teaching in the calm. What we need to do is learn how to calm down by giving up our thinking. Then in our calm, look at the thinking again and notice if we can continue being calm with getting involved in the thinking, with actually thinking again. But if we start thinking again about the teaching and we become agitated, then maybe we should take a break from the insight work and just focus on letting go and calming down. Now, we can now go back and look at the teaching, and now you have insight will come. So I'm not saying do not use teachings as points of focus, but I'm not really suggesting use anything as a point of focus.

[75:39]

I'm just saying follow the instruction of letting go of thinking. But I'm also saying I'm not prohibiting that you would use something to focus on to help you let go of thinking. But it's probably easier to use something not that interesting to focus on, to let go of thinking about it. So if you take a really interesting teaching, it's hard to let go of the brilliant thoughts you have about it. So if you're going to take an object, take something simple like your posture, because you just sort of have to pay attention to your posture when you're sitting anyway. So that's what you're doing anyway, so just pay attention to that and then let go of thinking. But you could also just without anything, with no object really. Just let go of thinking. There are objects, but you're not using them, you're using them in teaching, give up your thinking. And being kind to your thinking helps you give up your thinking. Like if you have a terrible thought, well be compassionate towards it.

[76:42]

And if you're compassionate, that's what it wants, give it your compassion and then it'll let you calm down. So I'm not saying at the beginning, I'm not saying don't. I just think it's probably better to focus on letting go of your thinking. Be kind to your thinking and let go of it. Or be kind to your thinking and through the kindness to your thinking let it drop away. And then when you're calm, then Then you can use the thinking as an object of contemplation in calm. And then you get new understandings of your insight, of the teaching. And again, if you start meditating on a teaching and you become disturbed, then maybe just set the teaching down for a while and go back to just letting go of the thinking by non-thinking, by being kind to your thinking. You're welcome. Thank you for your question.

[77:43]

So I think Linda was next. And then practice. Hmm? Her name is... No, I said Vanessa and then practice. Practice raised her hand. Pardon? Pardon? I don't understand what you're saying. Translation of her name. Yeah, I translated her name. I said it's practice. I know her name's Practice. So what's she saying? Do you think I didn't know that? Do you recognize it? Congratulations. Yes.

[78:45]

You've emphasized being kind, compassionate, patient with thinking. Yes. With thinking which can be very, very strong, can be described in unpleasant ways. So I'm inquiring about what that move is. being patient and compassionate with your thinking, would that be, that could be just another thought? Well, when you hear the teaching, be compassionate, it's kind of like you're hearing a word. It's a thought, yeah. And you keep working with that until you start to understand what it means. So I'm just inquiring a little more specifically, like, If it's just a thought... It's not just a thought. You receive it as a thought. I realize that that's not going to be very helpful if it's just a thought.

[79:51]

Then I thought, is it maybe like a kinder being inside of me who is being patient and compassionate with some other being who is frenetically thinking? Would that be helpful? That would be fun, yeah. Or maybe some experience in the body, actually. Yes. So then what we are saying to each other is investigate what that teaching means in the body and in the mind. In the body. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Vanessa. Vanessa. When insight, when I receive insights from listening to the teacher or wholehearted sitting, they come, there's a thought and then there's a feeling.

[81:13]

And I think the insight is more this feeling that I'm having. And this feeling makes me feel not separate, less separate from life, from others. And then the question I have is, when I start to investigate that with more thinking, thinking can make me feel separate again. And I'm struggling, I struggle with the intellectual aspect of thinking and I'm resistant to that. Like coming back into feeling like I'm a separate, more separate, like I'm just this Vanessa. And my question is how do I how do I continue to investigate and use discrimination without losing that insight, the feeling from the insight of feeling not separate from others?

[82:45]

being concerned about losing the insight that you're not separate from others is the thing at that moment to be kind to. If you are able to be kind to the concern about losing an insight you'll calm down and more insights will come. But when insight comes, then that might give rise to concern for not losing that insight. The concern for losing an insight is not insight, it's another body and mind. And if we use that body and mind, the one that's concerned about losing insight,

[84:11]

that is an opportunity for another insight. So people who have insights are at risk of being concerned of losing them. People with no insights do not have that problem. They're concerned about continuing to not have insights. But if they are kind to being concerned for not having insights, they'll have insights. And if those who have insights are concerned about losing them, they will have more insights. Thank you. You're welcome. Practice. Do you want to help her with that, Jillian?

[85:15]

Thank you. First, I want to say that thank you for your devotion to the Buddha Dharma. You're welcome. I don't have questions for you, but I have questioning. So may I present my questioning? Yes. Could you hear what she said? She said, I don't have a question for you, but I have questioning. May I present my questioning? Is that right? Yeah. Yes, you may present your questioning. Thank you. Even though it's not for me. It is for you. Or maybe it's not. Oh, sorry. So this is what Hong Dun... Hong Ren telling Hui Nan that if you don't know your mind, studying the Buddha way is useless. It's not beneficial. This has been my gongan the entire time I was in Green Gorge.

[86:34]

So I was looking for my true mind. This true mind, the way I understand it is that the primal mind, there's non-ceasing and non-arising mind. So, you talk about ten tai chi, and so there's this devotion part. And right now, I'm not so sure if the true mind comes first. I mean, primarily, true mind comes first or devotions. So, Tiantai Chi, before he started doing meditation, he did full prostration straight for 19 years. So that was devotions. That was through my manifesting. So that was my quest, and it is still my quest. So my question is,

[87:36]

wholehearted sitting, soul, and wisdom of thinking and wisdom of learning. If you don't know your true mind, if you don't know, if you don't recognize that there is a true mind, and then with devotion lacking, how are you going to practice the Buddha ways? Because there is no way you can achieve the wisdom of thinking and wisdom of discerning and i'm this and i'm recently started reading surangama sutra so since my memory is still fresh so i would like to use art the ananda as example he didn't know his true mind so he was just chasing his the the sorrow of his mind so yeah So he didn't understand what Buddha was telling him.

[88:40]

Keep finding, using example after examples. I think there were seven or eight that he still couldn't hear the teaching because the true mind was not there. He didn't recognize it. And it has to come to a point that Manjushri, had to scold him that you only hear the teaching of the Buddhas and Buddhas, all Buddhas, but why don't you listen to your true mind, that primordial mind, that non-ceasing and non-arising mind. So this is my questioning, that if... If there's no teaching of recognizing the true mind, no matter how long you sit, no matter how you think you wholeheartedly sitting, that is just your mind playing trick.

[89:41]

That's just my mind playing trick with me. So I feel like there's a lacking here from this teaching that you have presented so far. So that's my question then. Thank you for your question. Anything else this morning to offer? Yes, please. Turn it. Yeah, that's it. How's that?

[90:54]

Good. Thank you. Yesterday I introduced a concept of calling what you're teaching preposterous. And so there are two things I want to say about that. One, in a conversation you and I had after that, you said something that changed it all for me. when we were talking about what is immediate realization, I don't know if this is what you said, but this is what I understood, is that we're not talking about there's immediate realization and then you are enlightened for the rest of your life like the princess who got kissed by Prince Charming and lived happily ever after.

[91:58]

that it's in that instant, that it's something that can happen in an instant. And when I understood that, it was a huge relief to me because all this time I've been thinking the goal is to become enlightened, have realization, and now I'll be you know, this source of light all the time, rather than in an instant, is it possible for me to be totally experiencing mind and body with nothing else going on? And that was just a huge relief for me. Is that, um, close to accurate? Close to what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, anyway, that was very, very helpful. So thank you. You're welcome. Um, um, This is a little embarrassing, but I feel like I just blurted that out yesterday and it was true for me.

[93:01]

But I wonder, is that ill-advised? Would it be better if I, because on one hand you say question the teaching and that was really big for me, but it feels like maybe I should have just sat with it and questioned it in my mind instead of getting it all over everybody. I don't know about that, but we did say that part of the teaching is to listen to the teaching and question the teaching. So questioning the teaching is part of our practice. I don't know about that somebody could have asked a better question than they did or whatever. But anyway, I think I encourage you to question the teaching. That's part of our practice and what I'm saying. And question that too, what you're doing right now.

[93:53]

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