I heard that there will be a Cook's Jindo after lunch today, and we can thank the people who worked in the kitchen during this practice period. And I also want to again say that I really appreciate the wholehearted sincerity with which you have all practiced during these three weeks. I've noticed and appreciated your presence and kindness and enthusiasm and patience. given a lot of attention during the Sashin to training in tranquility and some discussion of what the state of tranquility is like and how it's, in the Yogacara tradition, how it's considered to be a necessary foundation for successful training in wisdom.

[01:32]

And I was going to talk a little bit today about how to turn, how the mind can turn then from the training in tranquility where we are giving up discursive thought where we're giving up involvement with the images that appear before us. And in giving up involvement with the images before us, we are actually attending to the image maker, the mind, which is contemplated by all minds. But I also wanted just to mention that It seems that in some places in the writing of Dogen you find expressions like this.

[02:45]

You find expressions like, I believe in this text I have before me, the zazen shin, the acupuncture needle of zazen is an expression of the vain programs for suspending considerations suspending discursive thought and congealing in tranquility, vainly endeavoring to cease thought and become absorbed in serenity. So that sounds like he's putting down tranquility practice, but I guess I would interpret that as meaning that to think that that's the full program of the Buddha way, that would be vain. So he's saying that in the context of we must go on to develop wisdom.

[03:55]

And also I just want to say that Dogen doesn't say much about the breathing process. And again, it's not because he doesn't think such meditations of attending to the breath as a way to give up discursive thought are not important, but rather he's emphasizing and promoting, rather than the teachings about how to use the breathing process to develop tranquility, he's interested in presenting teachings which promote higher wisdom and higher understanding of the nature of breathing, rather than using breathing in connection with tranquility. But of course, not of course, but I think that he... Can I have a sutra book for your sutra book?

[05:00]

I think he just would say, of course we're practicing tranquility, but we're not just doing that. And so I just would say that in the... I actually wanted us to chant Fukanzazengi this morning, but forgot to mention that to Reverend Owl. But in the Fukanzazengi, Dogen says, this translation says, Cast aside all involvements. Cease all affairs. Do not think good or bad.

[06:07]

Do not administer pros and cons. Cease all movements of the conscious mind, the gauging of all thoughts and views. In other words, give up discursive thought. Give up all involvements with objects. give up all the measuring, calculating, examining functions of the mind. So here is writing his basic instruction on giving up prescriptive thought. He also says, cease from practice based on intellectual understanding, pursuing words and following after speech, and learn the backward step which turns the light inwardly. So that is some instruction on giving up discursive thought.

[07:09]

And then he talks about setting the body up. And then he says, settle into a steady immobile sitting position. So again, I would read that as short for sit still. And sit still means in body and mind. Give up the wanderings of the discursive thought. realized Samatha. And then he says, think of not thinking or think not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Non-thinking. This in itself is the essential art of Zazen. So he's saying that thinking is the essential art of Zazen. First he told you to give up thinking. And he says, once you've given up thinking and settled into a steady, immobile sitting position, your mind and body are still and quiet and calm, now let the mind turn, let the mind pivot, and start thinking again.

[08:23]

This thinking process which has just been described is the essential art of Zazen. But it's based on tranquility. And this essential art then, which is based on tranquility, is then also cooked in tranquility. So once we learn how to think of non-thinking and think of thinking and think of not thinking, then we let that understanding cook in tranquility. This teaching is based on a story where a monk asked the ancestor, the 36th ancestor in our tradition. A monk came up to the teacher.

[09:32]

The teacher was sitting still. The teacher is Yaoshan. The monk comes up to him and says, What kind of thinking is going on there when you're sitting so still? The Zen teacher is sitting and the monk says basically, what kind of thinking is going on? Are you thinking? Are you thinking or are you just giving up thinking? And the asana says, doesn't say, I'm not thinking. He just doesn't, I guess he actually, he's calm, but he's very steady, very still, immovable, dynamic, alive, flexible. He's in a state of shamatha. But he's thinking. So when the monk says, what kind of thinking are you doing? He can tell him. And he says, I'm thinking of not thinking.

[10:33]

Now, right away I'll just interpret that for you. When he says, I'm thinking of not thinking, I think he's saying, I'm thinking of a thoroughly established character phenomena. I'm thinking of suchness. I'm thinking of emptiness. That's what I'm thinking about. I'm meditating on emptiness. He just happened to catch me at a time when I'm meditating on emptiness. So he says, in a poetic response, rather than saying, I'm thinking about emptiness, since the monk asks what kind of thinking he's doing, he turns and plays with the word in his meditation on emptiness, where he doesn't perceive any thinking, and he's thinking about not perceiving any thinking, like in chapter 5. So, the monk asks about thinking, I'll tell you about thinking, I'm thinking about not thinking. And the monk says, how do you think of not thinking? And Yashan says, non-thinking.

[11:42]

So this is an instruction about how to practice insight. Let's say the monk's quite calm. So he gets to ask the teacher a question rather than being told, go back to the zendo and shut up. This monk's very calm. He can ask that question as an insight. He's asking about insight instruction. Teacher gives it to him. How do you practice thinking of suchness, of emptiness, of a thoroughly established character? How do you think? How do you use your discursive thought to think about not thinking like you're doing, teacher? Non-thinking. So the first instruction here is you start with non-thinking. You think about non-thinking.

[12:52]

Non-thinking. So in this presentation by Dogen, I would say that there's three stages of meditation here. Only two are explicitly pointed to. First stage is non-thinking or thinking, using discursive thought to think about non-thinking. Next stage, I would suggest, is to use discursive thought to think about thinking. Next stage will be to use discursive thought to think about not thinking.

[13:53]

Three stages, and I would put that in parallel to think about the other dependent character, think about the imputational character, and think about the thoroughly established character. So in this instruction by Dogen and also in this sutra, the wisdom work starts with thinking about dependent core arising, with thinking about the other dependent character of whatever. In this case, yeah, whatever. Non-thinking could also be translated as beyond thinking. Think beyond thinking or think about how all phenomena are beyond thinking.

[15:01]

Everything's basic. character or basic nature is that it's a dependent core arising. Everything that exists is a causal entity, a dependent core arising. So you start wisdom work by thinking of that teaching and contemplating how whatever you're experiencing, whatever seems to be happening, first of all, in your calm state, Listen to the teaching. This is a dependent core rising, which means this other dependent character is beyond my thinking about it. Because my thinking about it is to think about it in terms of images, which make it seem like it's not other dependent. So at the beginning of wisdom work, it's somehow you kind of like, okay, you ready to start wisdom work?

[16:12]

Yes. Would you be willing to sign this waiver or this agreement or this affidavit which says that you understand that the way you see things and the way you think about things does not actually characterize their basic nature? Yes. Do you understand that all your experiences are basically beyond the way you think about them? Yes, I do. Okay, now think about that. Every time you see something, remember, what is here actually is not just what I think it is. And what I think it is is based on something That's not what I think it is. It's based on something which is not how it appears to me. And what is it that this is based on?

[17:20]

It's based on some kind of other dependent phenomena, which I do not know directly, but I only know it through my thinking about it. And being another dependent character, that means that whatever I'm looking at, even though it looks kind of permanent, and looks kind of stable, and I bought this thing because it was supposed to be reliable, actually, I'm listening to a teaching which the implication of which is whatever this is, no matter what it is, it's unstable, impermanent, and not worthy of confidence. So the first part of wisdom work actually strengthens the basic practice of ethical discipline. But now, By meditating on this teaching, you will naturally be virtuous.

[18:25]

You no longer, as this teaching sinks in, need to keep reminding yourself of the precepts. As this teaching sinks in, you will actually naturally, naturally not try to be possessive. and not try to get things to be the way you want them to be. Because you don't try to get impermanent things to be some way because you know it doesn't make sense. So that's the basic insight practice which is taught by Dogen when he says, think of non-thinking, and it's taught in the sutra when the Buddha says, I start by teaching a lack of own being in terms of self-production. I start by teaching, basic teaching in wisdom is whatever you are experiencing, even though it looks like it's keeping itself going, it does not produce itself.

[19:30]

Even though we think we keep ourselves going and we're surviving, we're built to keep this going, we think that's possible, this teaching says you do not keep yourself going There's one thing that doesn't keep you going, and that's you. That's what the teaching says. And other people don't keep themselves going. So what they are, don't blame them. And also what they are, it's not really all there. It's wonderful that people are the way they are, but the way they are is not because they made themselves that wonderful way. They're that way because the universe made them that way. So they're wonderful, it's true, but they didn't make themselves. So if they're wonderful in a form you find obnoxious, don't blame that person. And if they're wonderful in a way that you find wonderful, don't blame that person. And you too. this lifts the enchantment of our thinking, starts to lift by letting this teaching sink in, by practicing non-thinking.

[20:51]

And the Buddha says, after he teaches this teaching, dependent goal rising dash lack of own being in terms of self-production. He says all this wonderful stuff that will happen, which again, I'm not going to tell you about that because I don't want you to get all worked up about all these wonderful things that you will attain if you practice this way. But anyway, he does tell you about these really tremendous positive evolution of the practitioner as they let this teaching of dependent co-arising sink in, as they practice non-thinking, they will practice virtue and give up non-virtue. They came into this practice trying to practice virtue, but now by their understanding they will naturally practice virtue and they will become liberated from affliction. The actual percentage of liberation has not been specifically determined by the text, but it's tremendous liberation, much happier life when you're practicing non-thinking, when you're meditating on dependent core rising with continuous mental attention based on tranquility.

[22:23]

The tranquility is very happy state. And now you're going to even deepen it because not only are you going to be tranquil, you're going to be more and more virtuous. Of course, practically speaking, if you think of this teaching just once in a while, it's not going to sink in as fast. However, if you're tranquil, it will be easier for you to think of this teaching a lot. Because just as you are, if you're able to continuously attend to giving up discursive thought, Then once you're calm, you're going to be able to continuously attend to the lack of own being in terms of self-production, to the dependent core rising of phenomena. But again, if we don't do it continuously, it sinks in more slowly. If we do it continuously, well, the transformation is... more unhindered.

[23:29]

So then Buddha says, all this wonderful transformation occurs. But then he says, but they're not completely liberated. In order that they become, in order that they'll be completely liberated, I teach in the next two topics of meditation. The next two kinds of own being. So we have to go on from meditating on the pinnacle rising, the other dependent character, to meditate on the imputational character and the thoroughly established character. Which in the Zen version, we go on from non-thinking, but not, when I say go on, I don't mean you stop non-thinking, you continue to practice non-thinking. And then based on the practice of non-thinking, you now add in another layer of wisdom meditation. So you have tranquility. Now we take on the wisdom meditation. We're living in an impermanent, unreliable world.

[24:37]

That's where we live. We're living in a dynamic, dependently co-arising universe. This is our home. And therefore, virtue is the name of the game. And now take on another kind of wisdom meditation based on the tranquility in the first wisdom meditation. So first is non-thinking, then comes thinking. In other words, now we're going to think. Excuse me. First is thinking about non-thinking. Now we're going to think of thinking. We're going to study thinking. Or first we start by meditating on the other dependent character, and now we're going to meditate on the imputational character. And that's where the study of signs starts, where the actual study and analysis of signs starts. So people are coming and talking to me in Doksan about how do they practice with signs, and I'm talking to you about it, and I'm happy to talk about it.

[25:43]

But I also give you this caveat, this warning, that I do not recommend that you start to do this Vipassana practice, which is mentally attending or continuous mental attention to signs. I do not recommend you do that until you have a basis in tranquility and meditation on the other dependent character. Just like when the monk asked Yashan, how do you think of not thinking? How do you think of the thoroughly established character, how do you meditate on emptiness? Yashan didn't say, well, just meditate on emptiness. Just look at emptiness. The Heart Sutra says, look at emptiness. Well, it doesn't really say it. I don't know what Avalokiteshvara would have said, but anyway, it sounds like you're saying, okay, You can look directly at it.

[26:46]

And he didn't say also, he didn't say study thinking. He said he studied non-thinking. So again, I suggest you start by immersing yourself in tranquility and then immerse yourself in the teaching of dependent core rising and then start studying science. Then start studying thinking. Then based on studying thinking, You can study not thinking. You can think of not thinking. Based on studying the thoroughly established character, excuse me, based on studying the other dependent character and the invitational character, then you're ready to study the thoroughly established or to investigate the thoroughly established. So applying it to, like for example, if one were calm and ready to do it, right in the zendo and use your sitting posture as something that you're studying, you can start by this sitting posture, this breathing body, sitting in this posture, this thinking, breathing body,

[28:29]

Is it a pinnacle rising? And just listen to that teaching until you develop a more and more unenchanted, wholesome attitude towards the body. Or you really feel like this is really a drifting wreckage. And you're not trying to fix it because that's its nature. And you're approaching this awareness with a calm, joyful body and mind. And you try to take care of it, you know, be kind to it, be devoted to it, But you know, you're not going to think that that zafu there in that particular short support cushion is going to make it all okay.

[29:47]

And then you start to look at the sign and And I feel that... I'm going to skip over that point right now. But anyway, I'm going to skip over going into detail on that point. So I'm just going to say that you would then start looking at the signs. The signs of the body, the form of the body, the image of the body. the way your mind is interpreting the other dependent character, the other dependent character, which actually presents immediate experience, which is not known to you.

[31:00]

What's known to you about your body sitting there is your interpretation of the immediacy of your body. Your body is actually immediately, moment by moment, arising and experiencing the immediacy of its being, the immediacy of its other-dependent nature, and then gone. Then another opportunity arises. It's happening. The sense organs are functioning interdependently with mind, However, at this level, nothing's identified. In this immediate experience, in each moment, things aren't identified. In terms of location, like I'm sitting next to that person or that person, or I'm here or not there, there's no identification. But there is immediate physical identification.

[32:04]

and this is a physical experience, that's a thought. It's thought that has a physical quality. Immediate experience, which is a thought that has a physical quality. It's an experience, it's a conscious experience, it's a conscious bodily experience, and it's immediate. and it doesn't make itself happen. It's at the pinnacle of rising, but you can't identify it in its immediacy. You sit and actually be aware of the immediacy that you do not have the ability to identify unless you interpret it as an image. And you do interpret it as an image, and that's how you know it.

[33:08]

So what you know about your body is your interpretation of the immediate. That's going on. And being aware of this process is starting to study the science. So the sign you're aware of is the mental sign, is the mental image, is the conceptual image based on the immediate physical body. A body which is joined to a mind, a mind which knows a body but not in an identifiable way of knowing. It's a feeling. It's a thought that's a feeling. It's a feeling, but it's an unidentified feeling. If we interpret this feeling, as referring to an object, then the feeling has meaning. But it's not the original immediate feeling, it is a conceptual image of the feeling. This is a little example, a little snippet of the process of studying science, but it has to be based on the other two meditations, tranquility and the first basic level, an ongoing level of insight.

[34:27]

And then the next step is to meditate on how it is that this image is actually absent in the immediacy. Or the other way around, when we have the image, we lose the immediacy. The image is not in the immediacy. The way the immediacy really is is that it's not touched by our images of it. But it is also influenced, although not touched by our images, it is influenced by our confusion of our images with it. So that once we interpret the immediate as being this image, that interpretation then becomes physical.

[35:37]

The interpretation separates us from the immediacy, but once we have this interpretation and this knowing, this meaningful experience, which separates us from the immediacy, that interpretation then becomes another immediate experience. So our immediate experience is transformed by our indirect interpretive experience. And it's transformed in a different way if we're aware of what we're doing than if we're not. the interpretation can be more or less conscious, and that interpretation transforms our physical basis, and our physical basis offers us another then immediate experience, which we feel in a kind of unknown way, and we wish to identify it, because that's also part of our immediate experience, is we feel the immediate experience of, I'd like to identify it,

[36:42]

although we don't can't identify that we would like to, we do. And then it becomes indirect again. Studying this process is part of study, is an expansion of studying science when we just say, Sutri just says at the beginning, studying science is mental, studying Vipassana, cultivating Vipassana by itself is mental attention to science. And then this is an expansion of that study. And then you get more and more skillful with this and understand the imputational character in relationship to this because you see that now you have a meaningful experience here because you have an image of what's going on. So it's a meaningful what's going on, and this image can be connected to a word, And also you can notice, you can find, you can realize that you're also projecting an own being onto what? Onto this immediate experience which you've just interpreted as this image and connected to this word.

[37:51]

And now you're learning about the imputational character. You're learning about the process of fantasy where you interpret and project things that aren't there at all. And then the next step is to think of how this process is actually not going on in what you imagine it to be going on in. And that's the most profound. That's the meditation on thoroughly established character, on suchness, It says in the sutra, cognition only, but I was talking to Reverend Ah, I think it's better to say concept only than cognition only. Concept only, or idea only, or image only, rather than cognition. The nature of cognition is that it's concept only. Anyway, all these deep teachings then are available to study based on these three levels before, tranquility, meditation on the other dependent, and meditation on signs or the imputational character.

[39:06]

So then we can understand that actually this imputational character is actually absent in what's going on. It's absent in the immediacy of our life. It really does not characterize what's happening except to the extent that it characterizes how imaging goes. But the actual projection of the essence is totally absent. This realization is similar to what we call removing signs. Removing signs means removing the image by which you interpret. Removing the image by which you interpret, you then are having immediate experiences with no way to make them meaningful. So that's part of the process that's talked about. So one way to talk about it is you're removing signs. Another way to talk about it is you're meditating on suchness. But before you can remove signs and meditate on suchness, or before you can meditate on suchness and remove signs, you have to understand signs so you know where to apply the meditation on suchness.

[40:22]

And that's learning to think of not thinking. So you see, it requires all this. But again, although I can talk to you and we can listen to these teachings about studying the imputational character and the thoroughly established character, remember always we have to be always meditating on the basic teaching of dependent core arising. which promotes virtue, keeps the virtue practicing going right in the middle of the wisdom practice without even attending to thinking about the precepts. Just the wisdom practice at this level maintains the virtue practice. So you don't have to turn away from your wisdom practice to go back to ethical discipline. It will be cared for in this meditation called Non-Thinking. before you're meditating on non-thinking, you have to think of this ethical discipline. And, yeah, so one more big thing is to talk, this is an example of meditating on what you'll call objects.

[41:38]

So the sutra talks about meditating on objects, and it talks about meditating on teachings, or meditating on Yeah. Sometimes it says meditating on objects and teachings, sometimes it says meditating on meaning and teaching. The Chinese translate a certain character, translate a certain term as meaning, and the Tibetans translate it as object. And that character is, I mean that word is artha in Sanskrit. Artha means both an object and it means a meaning or a truth. So the Chinese translations we have translated the arta as meaning. So if you look at the Chinese translation, you find meaning. If you look at the Tibetan translation, you find object.

[42:40]

So what you're moving the signs on, what you're meditating on, is these artas, which are objects or meanings, and dharmas or teachings. So you're meditating on all kinds of objects and teachings. So we're going to remove the signs of all these ordinary objects of experience, but also going to remove the signs of the teachings and the signs again are these images we put on things so they can have substance, so we can talk about them. And we need to do that to talk about teachings. We need to project, we need to imagine these signs and put them on the teachings so we can talk about them. So we need to remove the substance from the teaching and remove the substance from all objects. So just as an example of this, which is kind of over our head, but I just thought I'd conclude with this anyway.

[43:47]

There's a chapter in the Shobo Genzo where Dogen brings up this teaching. Three worlds are just one mind. Outside mind, there's no separate dharmas, no separate things. Mind, Buddhas and sentient beings, these three without distinction. And then he cites a story where student and teacher are having a conversation about this. In this case, the teacher is this teacher named Xuanzha, a Chinese Zen master named Xuanzha, and his student is a Chinese Zen master named, the name we usually call him by is Ditang.

[44:56]

There's a number of cases of Ditang in the Book of Serenity. Ditsan means Jizo. So he's named after this bodhisattva behind me because his temple was called, it was the temple of Jizo, the temple of Ditsan. So his nickname kind of was Ditsan. So these two Zen masters are talking, student and teacher. The teacher says to the student, how do you understand is teaching. How do you understand?" And Di Tsang says, points to a chair and says,

[45:57]

I was looking for a chair to point to and all I could see was this platform. Then I realized these people are sitting on the chairs. You're blocking my view of the chair. Get up. He pointed to a chair. Yeah, right. We got chairs here. People hiding the chairs from me. I knew we had some chairs. He pointed to a chair and he said, I call this a chair." The teacher says to Ditsan, "'How do you understand three worlds, only one mind?' Ditsan points to the chair and says, "'I call this a chair.'" Oh, sorry, got it wrong.

[47:06]

He points to the chair and he says, what does the master call this thing? That's right. The master says to the student, Shrensa says to Ditsang, how do you understand three worlds, just one mind. And Ditsang points to the chair and says, What does the master call this thing? And then the master says, A chair. That part's easy, huh? And then Ditsang says, The master does not understand three worlds, mind only. And Shrensa says, I call this thing made of bamboo and wood.

[48:16]

How about you? And Ditsang says, I also call this made of bamboo and wood. And Shonsa says, I searched the whole world for someone who understands the Buddha Dharma, but it's impossible to find one. So what's this a story about? I don't know. It could be a story of two calm people contemplating this teaching at the level of dependent core rising. And this is the conversation they have. It could be two calm people contemplating this teaching at the level of studying thinking, studying mental attention to science. And this is where it comes. It could be two calm people discussing this teaching at the level of suchness.

[49:25]

It could be two not calm people, talking about this teaching at the level of the other dependent character, and so on. Does that make sense? This conversation could be happening at various levels of meditation. Again, if it's the highest level or the deepest level, it's based on the previous three levels. They're all there. At the highest level, they're all there. At the beginning level, there's just tranquility, just giving up discursive thought. But probably, at the first level of training, they're just giving up discursive thought. But they could be calm. But once they're calm and they start talking, they're starting their wisdom work. Unless, I would say, unless their conversation disturbs their calm. But maybe we could just, for now, in terms of exploring and investigating the story, because the story is a story about people meditating on a teaching.

[50:37]

Now we are meditating on a story which is a teaching about people meditating on a teaching. Does that make sense? So we are also now exercising our discursive thought to look at this story about people who are using their discursive thought to examine their understanding of this big teaching. And I have the, what do you call it, the destiny of having some very interesting things written down here, but feeling like it's too much, and the practice period's going to end pretty soon. That's the way it goes.

[51:38]

I'm really kind of having to adjust to this. But there's not, you know, it's out of scale to go into this, what I have here. But what I can say is that what we have before us is the possibility of basically this, that this story about these monks investigating this teaching, or forget the story and make a new story called you, and perhaps me, investigate this teaching. That we make a story of you and I investigating this teaching. Or you and I investigating your body. And then the question is, Are we calm?

[52:39]

And are we meditating on dependent core rising? And are we meditating on... Is that as far as we're going? Or are we calm and meditating on dependent core rising and using discursive thought in this calm state to talk about dependent core rising of our body or this teaching or this story? Or are we moving on now to look at the signs of... the way we interpret this body or this story, or, you know, what are we doing here? So rather than go through all the things I was going to say, I'll just offer you this way to make a current version of that in the time we have left in this life. And so rather than go through the story to show you how they did it, which would be interesting, and I thought it was going to be really interesting and fascinating and all that, but I think there's not time.

[53:46]

And so better to, like, see if you have any questions about how to practice it in your own life if you want to. Yes? No, it's not a feeling and an image. Immediacy is a thought, it's a feeling. Maybe I misspoke then. It's not yet an image. At the level of existence where we have immediate experiences, the mind which is engaged in this immediacy, which in this teaching here is called alaya, the mind which connects to the body in which immediate things are arising, it has all the seeds for images.

[54:51]

But none of those images are identified. So in that sense, it could be a seed of an image for this feeling. But there is feeling in this realm of immediacy. And this feeling is a mental thing. It's a thought. It's not connected yet, no. It's not connected to manas and manavijnanas. So at the level of immediacy we just have alaya, the transformation of consciousness, the transformation of mind called alaya is the immediate part. And alaya has a physical quality. It's connected to the body. So at that level, our thought is feeling. There's feeling there. And there's samya too, but samya is not operating fully. It's not activated. So all the possible images are there, but the images are not being identified with the impact, the immediate impact.

[55:55]

In order for it to move to the next level, but that's a sign. Pardon? Removed? Oh. She says, at that level, can you remove signs? And the answer is yes. And so I might just ask, how do the signs get removed at that level of immediacy? Anybody want to say? Yes. What? Well, that's true, too. But at the level where they are there, how are you going to remove them? What? Know what they are? That's part of it, yeah. But basically, once you interpret the sign, which dhanasi, now the manas and the manavijjana, the defiled...

[57:00]

thinking mind and the regular thinking mind are activated, then these images can be interpreted. Then this direct experience can be interpreted and these interpretations will use the alaya as seeds for their interpretation. Once that occurs, what usually happens in that interpretation of the immediate sign as an interpreted image sign, what usually happens is that as a consequence of that, more seeds are laid down for more signs. But if in the process of identifying, of interpreting this immediacy, there's understanding that this interpretation is actually totally made up. Although it's, I mean, what the interpretation is does not exist here. If there's that understanding, that understanding transforms the seeds in alaya.

[58:08]

Well, the old seeds go, but then you have new seeds arising, but now there's a new seed with the other new seeds. which are connected to the old seed. Now this seed is connected to the insight of the emptiness of this process of interpretation. So that's how the actual basis consciousness, where the physical immediacy of the signs is, that gets transformed too. So we can remove signs at the interpretive level by seeing through them and seeing, meditating on how they don't have the nature of how they appear. they don't really exist, that understanding transforms the basis consciousness. Or rather, that interpretation, that new interpretation becomes a new sign. Now they become signs which are not signs anymore. So in that sense, they're removed at the immediate level and at the interpretive level. The interpretive level is removed right in the midst of interpretation.

[59:20]

The immediate level is removed in the next moment. It's removed later as a consequence. As a consequence of insight, your immediate experience is transformed. As a consequence of delusion, your immediate experience is transformed, too, into more seeds for more delusions and more tendencies to interpret things as being, you know, substantial entities. But I kind of wanted just to see, the main thing is, do you understand now how to practice And you can try to clarify things, but you understand when you're clarifying what level of practice and in what way you're practicing as you do what you're about to do, whatever it is. So give a try at that. So basically what I was going to say is, the basic thing is, given all this that's happened during these three weeks and also the previous number of moments prior to the three weeks that you've existed,

[60:28]

and what you've been practicing during that time, given all your practice for this life and innumerable lives, now at this point, given all that, try to express something. And then that's basically how to proceed in the study. Try to express something about your understanding. where you're at in all this ocean of dharma. How are you going to proceed with your practice is the main thing now to go forward with. And that will happen, right? But are you there to express something about this teaching or whatever teaching, doesn't have to be this teaching, whatever teaching or whatever experience, try to express something for yourself. That's basically the upshot of all this study, okay? So now, if you have questions, please have it be like that, that you're not expressing yourself. I'm sitting and trying to get up, bringing the thought to what I'm doing, kind of dropping the signs.

[61:36]

I got an idea, something comes up in my mind, and I said all I had to do, I let it go. Start from the beginning, start from the beginning what you said. Yeah, I'm sitting. Yes. And a thought comes up. Yes. And I drop it. I don't pursue it. Yes. Is that dropping a science? No, that's practicing, that's training in tranquility. Yeah. And that's part of our practice, is to train in tranquility, to keep dropping these thoughts. Don't get involved in them. And if you can have continuous mental attention to the dropping of these thoughts, this will develop tranquility. Then, based on that, you can move on then to start using your thoughts again. So when they arise... a thought arises, is this a thought which you can either use that thought to... Is that a thought which wishes to think of the teachings? Is it a thought that arises, I want to look at some teachings now?

[62:41]

Or if it's not a thought that wants to look at a teaching, it's just a thought like, it's Monday. Then when that thought arises... If you were going to drop it, let go of it, or let go of getting involved with it, that would be training in tranquility. Training in insight would be, I think I'll apply some teachings to this thought that is Monday. And the first teaching I'm going to apply to this thought is that this thought is a dependent core arising. This thought has been brought to me by the very process which Buddha was mainly concentrating on. That would be an example of setting the stage for meditating on science. It's not meditating on science. You're meditating on other dependent character, namely that whatever arises, Before whatever arose, you gave up getting involved with. In tranquility practice, something arises, and that's it. Something arises, and that's it. Something you hear, that's it.

[63:44]

Something you see, and that's it. You don't get into any discursive activity around it. You don't buzz around it, and you don't take chains of buzzing all over the place with it. You give up that. But now, when you're calm, and something arises, you can sort of say, well, I think I'm going to think about this. I already did. I'm going to practice insight with this. I'm going to apply a teaching to this. The first teaching that Reb says is, apply the teaching that what has arisen is a dependent core arising. That this thing did not make itself happen. This thing did not make itself happen. This thing did not make itself happen. Now it looks solid, but it did not make itself happen. It looked like it made itself happen, but it didn't. That's another little conversation I can have with myself, which is related to the first kind of meditation on other dependent. That the other dependent character, I also read in the sutra, the other dependent character is known by misconstruing it as my images of it.

[64:48]

So I do have images of this thing called Monday, but those images are just the way I know this thing called Monday now, but I'm also now remembering the teaching that this actually is beyond my thinking about it. So I'm thinking of Monday, but I'm listening to the teaching that Monday is beyond my thinking of Monday. This kind of conversation can occur in tranquility, and if it occurs in tranquility without disturbing the tranquility, it's probably insight, discursive thought. If other kinds of discursive thought, or even if that discursive thought happens in tranquility and it disturbs the tranquility, probably there's some other kind of corrupting elements coming into the analysis, like you're trying to get something out of it or something. Rather than, I'm just joyfully doing the skillful activity, the wholesome activity of investigating the the appearance of this phenomenon I call Monday, the thought of Monday.

[65:56]

Or I have a pain in my knee. Stopping there and giving up any discursive thought is kind of training for tranquility. Now if I'm tranquil, pain in the knee arises and I say, it's a dependable rising. And the dependent core rising nature of this pain in my knee is beyond, is the basis of and beyond my image of the pain. So I have an image of the pain by which I'm grasping it. But also I remember the teaching that this actual pain has a nature which is beyond my thinking about it. And if I can talk to myself that way, and continue to become, then I'm going to continue to be able to continue to do that and continue to become, then I'm doing insight work in this particular way. And the more I do that, the more this teaching of the Pentacle Rising sinks into me.

[67:01]

And I am transformed by the teaching sinking into me. And it sinks into me when I'm calm and using my discursive thought to bring the teaching into my mind and let it live in my mind and take over my mind. So I gradually become taken over by Dharma and transformed by the takeover. Once this is well done and you feel like you can continue this level, then you can add on the next level of studying the signs, which is now, and I had mentioned a little bit about that before, now, when this is well cooked, this level, then now you can add on to this another ball. You see, you're throwing the shamatha ball up and down. Now you're throwing the shamatha and the discursive thought. You've thrown the shamatha ball up and down. Now you attain shamatha. Now you give up the Samatha training and now you start using your discursive thought again, thinking of dependent core rising and you flip them back and forth.

[68:08]

Can I think about dependent core rising and Samatha doing both at the same time? Or do I drop the Samatha, do I lose the Samatha when I think about dependent core rising? Yep, I lost the Samatha. Put dependent core rising, get the Samatha back. I got the Samatha back, dependent core rising. Can I throw them back and forth? Yeah. Now can I add in looking at the signs, which I've been seeing all along, but I haven't been analyzing them. I've been just using my discursive thought to apply the teaching of dependent core arising to these images. Now that that's well established, I can now start looking at the signs of these things and understand this teaching we were just talking about before is that this sign is an interpretation of the direct experience And then you have all these teachings to help you. You have Chapter 5, Chapter 6, and Chapter 7 to help you understand and analyze and investigate the relationship between the image of your knee, the image of the pain, the image of Monday, and the direct experience of Monday, the actual causal conditions that impact you to make you feel like it's Monday.

[69:20]

All the causes and conditions, you know, those... you know, posting those things on the board saying, you know, the practice experience, you know, just one more day of sashi, all that kind of stuff that gives rise to this actual something happens to you that makes it to be Monday. Various conditions for it. And then there's an image of all that which is indirect and identifiable. So you meditate on all that. And the more you study that, the more you get ready to see, well, actually, there's also this imputation of essence in this whole process here. So now you start to be able to see, okay, got these signs, which are interpreted, which are based on uninterpreted connection with words, and then there's this projection of self in there, and I see there's the image, there it is, there's the image of essence. I can see it. And if I take it away, I can't, something breaks down. If I put it back, it works. You start to see all that. You go into the, you could say the devil's workshop, or you could say you go into...

[70:22]

Manas's workshop, where Manas is kind of like feeding stuff to Manavigyana and they're bouncing off a lot. You get in there. But you could also call it the magician's workshop. You get in there and you study this. You illuminate the process of delusion. And the more you get to see that, you get to see, actually, that actually is not there, that essence part. And when you see this not there, then everything looks different. And then, even when it appears again, you won't believe it. You'll say, it's not true. It's an illusion. I'm not going to fall for it. But in actual conversation with each other about this, I'm telling you about the course that's described in Chapter 8 and the teachings which feed into Chapter 8 in the sutra, But we have to be careful that basically I think it's a good criterion that do not proceed into these insight works unless you're calm and buoyant and all that.

[71:32]

And then if this deteriorates, it's a sign that perhaps the insight work is not being done quite properly and it's good to put it aside for now and calm down again and try it again in such a way that doesn't disturb your calm. It changes your calm a little bit when you start doing insight work. It makes it a little bit more lively. But I also have noticed that many people who actually have trouble practicing giving up discursive thought, Certain types of discursive thought, if they do, they actually are more successful at giving up discursive thought. So some people, insight work calms them down more than literal tranquility work. So when you actually are tranquil, if you're doing insight work really well, it deepens your tranquility. And if there's some gaining idea threaded in with your insight work, it's going to disturb your tranquility. So that's not the proper way to be doing tranquility anyway. Same with tranquility work.

[72:34]

If there's gaining idea mixed in with your trying to give up description of thought, it undermines the giving it up. So, okay? Yes. separate stages of practice. Well, they're separate in the sense, but they depend on each other. Yeah. But one doesn't start to look at the immediate unmitigated sign without the removal of the sign. There's a lot of ways to talk about that third stage until That's usually what's recommended. Do not try to look at the thoroughly established character without being well-grounded in the conventional. Otherwise... Can you talk about starting the shamatha practice and looking at the thoroughly established character?

[73:41]

Because there is talk of that. If looking at the thoroughly established character, if you look at it in a way that basically helps you give up discursive thought, I guess it's all right. But then you're not really studying, you're not really being taught. What Nargajuna says is that the thoroughly established character, the ultimate, should not be taught until one's well grounded. But just to look at the image of emptiness... as a way to help you give up discursive thought. That's not the teaching of emptiness. That's just an image of emptiness. Maybe that's okay, perhaps. If you hear the word emptiness and that helps you let go of discursive thought, that's okay. The Buddha's not teaching you emptiness at that time. He's just saying to you, emptiness, and you go like, oh, discursive thought drops away. And Buddha says, emptiness, and discursive thought drops away. So if the word emptiness or the image of emptiness, the word-image combination, either side of that combination, and even the essence of emptiness, which is in there, if that helps you give up discursive thought, fine.

[74:56]

But you're not really studying emptiness. You're not meditating on emptiness. You're using emptiness as a device to give up discursive thought. There's other strange things that you don't really study which help you give up discursive thought. Like, I can't remember, but, you know, I saw this movie one time called Bull Durham, and this guy was teaching, training his pitcher, and he had the pitcher wear, he was a male pitcher, male, homo sapien, and he wore a bra while he was pitching under his baseball outfit. It helped him give up discursive thought. Another instruction, he was like... Something like, imagine some kind of strange thing going on in his upper eyelid or something. We also sometimes say, put your mind in your hara, you know. There's various kind of like instructions, which if you let these instructions in, they help you like let go of your discursive thought. So emptiness could be, the word emptiness could help us.

[75:58]

I guess the question comes from… Or void, you know. Seems like a lot of outside, like additional activity thought and processes and activities that one needs to do to transform the student or transform what they do. There's a lot of the teaching that says this is and always has been and always will be the fundamental truth of your life. All you need to do is open. And that all this activity takes away from you. It's going away from Right. So you can just open to it if you want to, but then after you open to it, you should be able to talk to people. And so then somebody comes up to you, you're open to it now, but two people.

[76:58]

One of them is open to it, and the other one's open to it. Go up to one person, you say, what kind of thinking are you doing there? It gives this response, another person you go up to, and they don't know what to do with that. Which is similar to when I'm talking all the other days, in a way when you're doing shamatha, you actually do open to the way things are. Because you're not distracting yourself with discursive thought. But you don't know what it is, but you're open to it. Okay? You actually are open. I mean, we actually are open to the truth all day long. the immediacy of what's happening is going on. We are intimately related all day long. And opening to that is definitely okay. And that's part of shamatha practice. But there's another part of bodhisattva practice, and that is being able to, like, when somebody comes up to you when you're open to the way things actually are and asks you what kind of thinking you're doing, you can respond in a way that people will talk about for about 1,600 years, and then they'll stop.

[78:02]

So this openness to the way things are is fine, and then how about some analysis? You don't have to do the analysis to open to it, but if you can't do the analysis, then it's going to be hard for you to expound these teachings. Unless you would open to this and apply what you're open to to all these teachings. In other words, take this open to signlessness and then take that openness to signlessness and put it on all this stuff that has signs. Because your mind still is generating these signs, even though you've opened to a place where there's none of that, where there's no interpretation going on. To open to that, fine. And now once you're open to it, now let's expound the ocean of Dharma. And that's fine. There are stories of Zen students who basically have finished their basic training and they're basically Zen masters. You know, the teacher's perfectly happy with them, they're done, and then the teacher says, I'll go to school.

[79:09]

And the student says, well, what for? Didn't you finish? Aren't I done? He says, yeah. Now take this finished product and take it to school so he can, like, now learn all these teachings and apply your, what do you call it, realized state to these traditional teachings so you can help people. Yes? How do I know if I'm strapping the thought without being too controlled or sometimes controlling the thought? Well, to know whether you're doing it or not is getting kind of discursive. If you're doing it consistently, you will attain a state where you won't be controlling. So another approach to shamatha practice is just relax.

[80:13]

Relax. Or like Oscar was saying, just open. Just open up to what's happening without trying to do anything with it. And then you say, well, how do I know if I'm just opening to what's happening without trying to do anything with it in a controlling way or not? Because you could make that into control myself into not doing anything, control myself into being open. Yeah, you might do that. It's possible. And are you relaxed about that? Yeah? Yeah? but maybe I'm trying to control myself into being relaxed. That sounds a little tense, but maybe that's relaxed. You say, yeah, I think it is relaxed. And maybe you're right. And if you're right and you consistently do that, you will be quite sure that you're relaxed at a certain point. I mean, you will be definitely, like, relaxed. And you will feel like, what do you call it, taken over by relaxation and energy at the same time. But being too concerned with making sure that I'm not trying to control is not really the sound light giving up trying to control.

[81:21]

Like, I'm willing to give up trying to control what's happening, I'm willing to open what's happening, I'm willing to relax what's happening, I'm willing to drop what's happening, and I'm even willing to drop my monitoring and calculating about how I'm doing in this practice. I'm willing to give up the constant discursive checking and how I'm doing giving up constant discursive checking. I'm giving up calculating how I'm doing letting go and calculating. Yeah? Pardon? Thoughts are objects, and chains of thoughts are objects. Thoughts are objects, and chains of thoughts are objects. And sense experiences are objects, yes.

[82:26]

When you let go of the thoughts of objects? No, when my attention, when I somewhat am able to drop your distorted thoughts. But then there are the senses, the hearing, the body sensations. What's in the right direction? It's having to do with the sense object as opposed to the thought object.

[83:29]

No, that's not the right direction. That's discursive thought, to choose which object you're going to be looking at. But if you feel more comfortable with images of sense than you do with images of mind objects, then that feeling of more comfortableness is a mind object. which you then could not be discursive about, rather than just stop there. But the images of sense objects for some people are easier to give up discursive thought about than images of certain mind objects. Like when somebody sees a blue, it may be easier for them to give up discursive thought about the blue than when they see hate or judgment. But the image of judgment and the image of blue, both of them, are things to just let them be that with non-discursive thought.

[84:33]

And to start saying, well, it's better to be non-discursive, to try to learn non-discursiveness with images of colors and sounds than it is to learn nondiscursive thought with images of mental phenomena, I think that's not conducive to tranquility. But to notice that opinion is another image and not get discursive about that, that is conducive to it. To follow that idea is getting discursive with the idea that different types of objects are better. But there's levels of grossness, and some people feel like, you know, I'm going to get discursive about those things, so I'm not going to think about them. Okay, fine. And these things I might not get discursive about, so I'm going to think about them.

[85:36]

So that's why some people like to think about the breath, because they don't get so excited about the breath as they do about some other images. And some people want to get excited, so they think about certain images. But that's not tranquility practice. Tranquility practice is not to look around, but what images are going to make you most discursive? That's more like how do you wake yourself up practice in terms of getting jazzed up. Right? So could you repeat again the things you just described, where you wanted to get less dispersive, and you're almost back. Right? But yet, having that opinion... Having the opinion what? I've had trouble with speaking thoughtfully, actually.

[86:37]

Would you receive my question, sir? Say it. You described it. If it's easier to draw the social thought around certain things, you might think of that rather than thinking of that. You also said having that, it's kind of, you also said, I think that having that opinion is the purpose. No, having that opinion, that opinion could just be another mind object. It's just an image, it's just a concept, that sense objects are easier for you to give discursive thought in relationship to than mind objects. That's just another mind object. That's easier. And you might say, and that's hard to not get discursive about, that one. because I'm actually about to make a big complicated plan about how to avoid those things and how to implement this opinion.

[87:46]

So I'm proving that this is really difficult for me. And I would say, well, you proved it to me. You are getting discursive about that. It is discursive thought, and you're right. You are being discursive. And the chamatha would be to give up getting involved in the idea that these kinds of things are easier than those kinds of things. But the idea that this is easier, the idea that that's easier than that, that idea, that concept, that image, these are easier than those, that concept, in tranquility practice you're giving up getting involved in that concept. You're just going, hmm, just like somebody... You know, I have an easier time giving up discursive thought with those things and those things. And you go, hmm... That's it. That calms this person down. But if that person says, or if I say, oh no, that's not true, and you shouldn't do that, then if I get involved in that, then I'm anti-shamata training.

[88:52]

But again, if people get super upset about something and they find a way to calm down with it that sounds like different from ordinary giving up discursive thought, it's possible that certain kinds of discursive thought, with people that are extremely upset, certain kinds of discursive thought will calm them down, like I said before. But basically, we're trying to give up all discursive thought rather than use discursive thought as a way to calm down. It's more giving up discursive thought that's going to really calm you. But again, some people are so upset that discursive thought calms them down. Like, for example, just the idea that I could decide which things I'm going to look at because some are easier to give up discursive thought with than others, that might calm me down. Okay, fine. Now when that's settled, then we can go deeper later, maybe. If your mind gets activated around color, it may be easier to see than how it gets activated around the judgment.

[90:04]

That may be more subtle in the second case. But some people get more activated around colors than I do about ideas. Like I told you the other day, some people like they see yellow and they just like totally freak. And I just can't, you know, they just think that is the most obnoxious yellow I've ever seen, you know, that you really get worked up. And I just kind of like, geez, that's, it's amazing that you can have all that feeling about that color. I mean, I saw that yellow and the one next to it and I didn't, to me they're both yellow and yes, you know. Whereas that person, if they hear about, Actually, I said it wrong, but maybe I can get more discursive around some mind objects. And they would look at the mind object and say, so what? What's the deal? Who cares? It's totally like, you know, we have our predispositions, right? So some areas are more challenging to, like, not get discursive about than other areas.

[91:07]

But it isn't shamanic to, like, then be discursive about what challenges you're going to be dealing with. But if you want it, put your foot down.

[91:20]

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