January 25th, 2002, Serial No. 03047
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Someone thanked me for showing up for this practice period. Someone asked if I hear that enough. And I said, I didn't say to him at the time, but anyway, I hear it a lot, so please keep it up. And I asked him, do you hear it? Do you hear that thank you for showing up?
[01:08]
Do you hear it? I ask you, can you hear it? Do you hear it enough? No? Thanks for showing up. Thanks for showing up. Thanks for showing up. Thank you very much for coming to the practice bridge. Thank you for showing up. Thank you for showing up. Thank you for showing up. Anybody else? Thank you for showing up. Thank you for showing up. Thank you for coming to the practice period. Who else? Is that enough? Thanks for showing up. Thanks for showing up. Is that enough for now? More later? Yeah, so please help me thank these people. So I do feel thanked.
[02:17]
I want other people to feel thanked too. I feel supported and I wonder, do you feel supported? And if you don't, I'd like to hear that you don't. The main medicine I'll give you will be to ask you to support everybody else. And then you'll understand that you are supported. But I'm very happy to help you understand that you are supported in any way. But we do need to feel supported, and the main way to feel supported is to support the other people. And, for example, showing up supports the other people. And when you show up as an act of kindness you will more and more understand that the other people are coming here for you, out of appreciation for you.
[03:24]
A lot of Zen students kind of see practice just basically for them. Their practice is basically showing up. which I think is outstanding. In other words, I can't do Zen practice, but I can give my body and mind to Zen, donate it to Zen, and then it gets supported, and then the supported body supports other bodies, and that's enlightenment. But we have to give ourselves over to it so that It can happen. And it is happening. So I said to somebody, this is the best January practice period so far. And this person said, you always say that.
[04:32]
I do always say that. But this time was really true. But that doesn't mean the next one won't be better. Somebody else came to see me and told me a story. And the story was, he heard that he was invited to come and see me. And when he heard that he was invited, he thought, he thought, he didn't really think this, but he sort of thought this. He thought, I would like to ask a question. that would be such as to protect the lineage of Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, and so on, you know. A question that would benefit all beings.
[05:42]
And he was wondering, while waiting for the appointment, what question he would ask that would benefit all beings. And while he was wondering, what question would benefit all beings, the telephone rang. In this particular case, he answered the telephone. The telephone asked if it was him and introduced herself as Christine. She was offering him a great deal on a new credit card. And they went, they were talking for quite a while, and then he asked her a question.
[06:54]
He said, a certain amount of money to have one of these credit cards? And she said, yeah, you have to make $15,000 a year. He said, well, I don't. I don't know exactly what she said, but I just want to say that she said, And he said, well, I'm a monk, and I don't get much money. And she said, well, you don't sound like a recluse. You sound like a normal person. She says, well, I'm not a recluse, but I am a monk. I live in a meditation community.
[07:59]
And I get room and board in a small stipend. And she said, can I come there? And he said, yeah. And he said, what's it like there? And he told her about the schedule and the meditation stuff. She said, well, can you sneak out of the meditation and have a cigarette? And he said, no, you can't do that. He said, well, I've had kind of a hard day and this has really been helpful. This is the high point of my day. Thanks a lot. I'll be out tomorrow.
[09:03]
And he said, you're already there. Do you feel it? She said, yes. I've entered the Suranga. Fortunately, the sutra, this great samadhi, has no content, really. Of course, it has all content, but there's no specific content that we're meditating on to be aware in all of our thoughts and actions of emptiness and the way things ultimately are.
[10:20]
So you can meditate on this samadhi while they're trying to sell you credit cards. And while they're trying to sell you credit cards, or while you're trying to sell them credit cards, in this samadhi the six perfections of a bodhisattva can be realized. are realized. I recently got a message on an answering machine. It sounded like a young man. He said, I called you a while ago I don't know if he said, this is Bill or something, but anyway, he said, I called you a while ago and I told you that you had been approved for this new credit arrangement.
[11:32]
And I can't understand why you haven't called me back. Don't you care about me? He sounded sincere. I was touched. I didn't know his telephone number. In the sutra on the Surangama Samadhi, there's a place where all the great shravakas, in other words, into the Buddha's teaching, and all the gods and Nagas and Yakshas and Gandharvas and Shakyas and Brahmas and Lokapala sovereign gods,
[13:13]
addressing the Buddha with one voice, said to him, Those who have attained the surangama samadhi have inconceivable virtues. How come? Because those people are all close to Buddhahood. and they are endowed with knowledge and super-knowledges and higher knowledges. Those who have not heard the Shurangama Samadhi are certainly possessed by Mara. And that sounds kind of like a little bit scary at first, but it makes sense because what that Mara is, the forces, the various forces of illusion that interact with grasping such that we get distracted from a total potential of life.
[14:29]
So we need this samadhi, otherwise we will be caught by the forces of illusion, we will be seduced by illusion. But with this samadhi, we are not caught. Even those who have heard of this samadhi, namely you, are protected by the Buddhas. Just here you are now protected by the Buddhas. How much more so can be said of those who, having heard, will repeat it and practice it. These are three levels of insight into this samadhi. Hearing about it, repeating it, thinking about it, and actually entering into samadhi with it.
[15:33]
I, years ago, like when I, before I got married, I was taking some classes in Berkeley and we were studying the list of samadhis that are in the perfect wisdom, the large perfect wisdom scriptures, 25,000 lines, which is called the Pancha Vimshanti Sahasrika Prajnaparamita Sutra. And on about page 203 of that text, it has a list of samadhis, bodhisattva samadhis. In this translation from Sanskrit, there are 112. And the first samadhi on the list is the shurangamo, samadhi.
[16:46]
And I thought it was, but I checked this morning, and it was. And that's the first samadhi of all the samadhis, and that samadhi includes all the other samadhis. There are 112, but after they list them, they say, actually, there's billions of samadhis, bodhisattva samadhis. And the Sri Ram Gama is the one that includes them all. In that translation it's called the Heroic Samadhi. The Chinese characters for that one I, in some ways, like better than the Chinese characters they usually use. For example, in this text, this Chinese text that's being translated, they use Chinese characters to transliterate it. So one way of doing it is to use Chinese characters and put them together so they sound like Shurangama, but actually, and so it sounds like, in Japanese, it sounds like Shuryogon.
[18:02]
This is trying to approximate . Not too bad. But this other translation had two-character translation. It was a translation, not a transliteration. translation wasn't trying to sound like shu-vi-o-gon or shurangama translated semantically, you know. So it had heroic and then the next character is practice or walking. And that character for practice is a character that has the connotation in Chinese of a practice of the community. not the practice of one person, or the walking of the whole community. So it's the heroic progress of the bodhisattvas, not the heroic progress of one person. It is the heroic progress of the entire mass. So you can see why such a samadhi includes all the great samadhis of all the bodhisattvas.
[19:08]
It's the heroic progress of all the bodhisattvas. That's the samadhi that we need to enter, that we need to hear about. We can hear about other samadhis, bodhisattva, like I'm doing credit card samadhi, I'm doing credit rearrangement samadhi, I'm doing kitchen samadhi, I'm doing whatever. But then there's the sarangama samadhi, which includes all those, plus all the other ones. We need that one too. Bhagavat, all these gods and all these amazing beings in one voice are saying to the Buddha, Bhagavat, who wishes to penetrate the Buddha attributes and reach the other shore, should listen attentively to the Shurangama Samadhi.
[20:11]
Receive it, remember it, repeat it to others. Think attentively. Take it in. Grasp it. Then using some sign, sorry, remember it and teach it to others. So I don't know if you'll be ready after this session to remember something about the Shurangama Samadhi after session, but bodhisattvas who wish to penetrate the Buddhadharma roots. They remember the sutra and they teach it to others. So it's up to you whether you want to remember some and teach it to some. But it's not, you know, you can just remember that part about, I want to ask a question that would be helpful. And then you can teach that to others by asking them questions that you're
[21:17]
trying to be helpful with it, give you feedback on whether it was a helpful question. Was that a helpful question? Yeah, that was pretty good. What are you talking about? Are you on some kind of a samadhi trip? Yes, as a matter of fact, this is part of the Surangama Samadhi is to ask questions, you know, benefiting beings by the question. Oh, that's a nice Samadhi. Where can I find out more about this? Well, let me tell you another part. Bodhisattvas who wish to manifest the figures of all colors, all bodily attitudes, The bodhisattvas who wish to understand the functioning of mind and thinking of all beings, the bodhisattvas who wish to know how to cure all diseases of beings, the bodhisattvas should listen carefully to this jewel of dharma, which is the sarangama samadhi.
[22:32]
Grasp it, remember it, and repeat it. has obtained the Shurangama Samadhi has certainly entered the domain of the Buddhas and into the mastery of knowledge. Tell me more. This is cool. Or, that's enough. This is weird. I don't want Buddhism to be sectarian, and I don't think it is. I think if it gets sectarian, it's, you know, it's not Buddhism. But stuff like, you know, you need this samadhi I feel nice that you're telling people you don't need to sign up for Buddhism. You don't need to join Zen Center. What you need is a great state of mind.
[23:33]
You need a state of one-pointed awareness on all good things. You need a state of one-pointed awareness that includes all other states of one-pointed awareness of all beings. of all bodhisattvas, of all those who are working for the welfare, that the Buddhism doesn't own that samadhi. And then the Buddha said, it is so, it is so, it is exactly as you say. One who has not obtained the Surangama Samadhi does not deserve the name of perfectly accomplished. And here, the Chinese is deep practice. They don't deserve the name deep practice.
[24:35]
And again, the same character for practice. Deep practice of all bodhisattvas. Not yet. Not until you attain this samadhi although I sometimes do give, you know, some people who may not have attained the samadhi nice names like that, for them to aspire to. One who has not attained the Shurangama Samadhi does not deserve the name to accomplish bodhisattva. And the Tathagata denies that this person truly possesses giving, ethics, patience, vigor, meditative absorption, and wisdom. If you wish to tread all our paths of liberation,
[25:48]
You should seek to obtain the shurangama samadhi, but without thinking of any training. And another translation is, but without thinking of all the practices. Little kicker at the end there. If you wish to tread all paths, you should realize this samadhi, but without thinking of any training. So maybe I can stop there. Maybe you have some question about that, or does that make perfect sense to you? It kind of surprised me a little bit, but I've gotten used to it.
[26:51]
I had a little while to get used to that. What? Oh, I think I know what you mean. What do you think I thought? I got to obtain the samadhi if I wanted, like, what is it, our paths? What did it say? Do you remember? Did you remember? What about these paths? If you want to tread all these paths, you want to tread these paths, all paths? Bodhisattvas want to tread all paths. Can you believe that? Why would they want to tread all paths? Hmm? Why? Because they're there and you have to be... That's where it takes to save all beings. If you want to tread all the paths, you've got to have the samadhi. But without... without thinking of any training. How come? How come?
[27:52]
What? Attachment, yeah. You have to practice, which includes all practice, all samadhis, and I have to do all that without thinking about any of it, without grasping it. Of course, all paths means all paths of thinking. If you want to try all passive thinking and save all, then you need the samadhi, but without thinking about all the practices. Yes? I found I stumbled on that phrase a minute ago, it's up to you. Is that simple? It's up to you. Well, don't grasp that you.
[28:55]
Don't grasp the you. What's the you? It's up to you. But not the you that you... Not the you that you just grasped there and thought, well, me? That wasn't the you I meant. You're welcome. Which you? The jewel mirror samadhi in you. Then you are not it, it's exactly you, you. Know that one? Huh? What? Yes? Yes. Good. Okay. Then the bodhisattva Dhridhamati questioned the deva-putra. Deva-putra I think means child of, doesn't it?
[29:58]
Deva-putra means child of the deva, child of the gods, manifested mind. So Dhridhamati questions this god. If a bodhisattva wishes to obtain this samadhi, what dharmas should she cultivate?" And this god says—this is kind of a well-educated god—this god says, a bodhisattva who wishes to obtain this samadhi should cultivate the dharmas of the worldly people. the pratyajna dharma. If you wish to cultivate this samadhi, you should cultivate the dharmas of worldly people. If you see worldly phenomena, worldly people, worldly activities, are neither united with nor separate from the Buddha dharmas,
[31:10]
then there is cultivating of this samadhi. This is a very basic thing about this samadhi. This samadhi is to cultivate nonduality. But, you know, some people might think, okay, I'll cultivate nonduality. So you put nonduality out there and you go, hmm, nonduality, wow, I love nonduality. That's fine. But that means the way to do that is to cultivate worldly stuff, not to cultivate just Buddhist stuff. Most people who want to attain this great bodhisattva samadhi think, well, I should think about the Buddhist It's okay to think about the Buddhist stuff if you understand that when you think about the Buddhist stuff, thinking about Buddhist stuff is not Buddhist stuff. Thinking about Buddhist stuff is worldly activity. It's dualistic activity, right?
[32:17]
It's nice to think about, like, think about what Buddhas are, think about all the wonderful practices they do, but that's worldly activity. It's very similar to thinking about people who don't act like Buddhas. And it's very similar. It's thinking. So all the kinds of thinking the joyful type, the wholesome type, the skillful type, and the unskillful type, those are all worldly dharmas, a whole range of them, we contemplate those. And in, what does that say? Though when you see, that these worldly dharmas are neither the same, are neither united with the Buddha dharmas, nor separate from them.
[33:18]
If you contemplate the worldly dharmas and think, oh, those are the Buddha dharmas, because this is nonduality, that's not the samadhi. To think that the worldly dharmas are separate from the Buddha dharmas, that's not the samadhi. So most of us, I think, a lot of us anyway, we've been thinking since we heard about the possibility of somebody being totally cruel. really skillful, no matter what happens, being able always to be a place where benefit arises without even possessing the benefit as something that they did, but just is educational to the highest degree. We hear about that. These are the Buddhas. And when we first heard about that, we probably thought, well, that's, I like it, and that's different from, you know, Something else, like whatever. A murderer.
[34:22]
A credit card salesperson. A director of a Zen center. A director of a Zen center. an abbot of a Zen center, a discredited abbot of a Zen center, a selfish Zen student, a lazy Zen student. Buddhas are wonderful, and they're not the...they're...that stuff. That's what a lot of us have thought at some point, right? One of you? Yeah. This is great, this is not so great, and they're separate. This miserable, selfish, angry, unkind is separate from this fabulous Buddha.
[35:23]
A lot of us think that, right? Have thought that, and we want to get away from that one and become the Buddha. Well, that's understandable. This is great. This is not so great. This miserable, selfish, angry, unkind person is separate from this fabulous Buddha. A lot of us think that, right? Have thought that, and we want to get away from that one and become the Buddha. Well, that's understandable. And then we hear about the teachings more and more, and we think, oh, those people and the Buddhas are, you know, united. They're one, they're the same. That's the next thing we think. The samadhi is to watch the... Forget about the Buddhas. First you hear about the Buddhas, and then you hear about the Buddhas' meditation.
[36:26]
Now, if you want to cultivate this Buddhas' meditation, then you forget about the Buddhas, and you just look at the worldly stuff. For now. And everybody's got plenty of worldly stuff, right? And you've got the heritage of it. No. All feel supported to have an abundance of worldly material. So you just contemplate that. And when you see that that worldly stuff is not united with the Buddha, Dharma, and not separate, this is like how you cultivate this samadhi. So, there it is. That's a way to cultivate the samadhi. Watch your mind. See if your mind can be balanced. Balanced between like different from the Buddha dharmas. My thoughts about her are different from the Buddha dharmas.
[37:27]
Don't lean into that. He is the same as the Buddha dharmas. Don't lean into that. Neither. That's how to develop the samadhi. Then Dhridhamati said, can there be union or separation in relationship to Buddhadharma? And Devaputra says, in relation to the worldly dharmas, there is neither union nor separation, even less so in relation to Buddhadharma.
[38:32]
Dhritamati, what is meant by cultivating dharmas? And Devaputra says, understanding that the worldly dharmas and the Buddha dharmas constitute non-duality. That is cultivating dharmas. In reality, between these two kinds of dharmas, there is neither union nor separation. All dharmas have a mark of non-arising. All things, all dharmas have the mark of non-arising. All dharmas have the mark of non-cessation. All dharmas like space. All dharmas have the mark of non-encounter, non-resistance. I feel that's just a wonderful little section of a sutra that I would like to hear again and again and repeat and remember and teach it to others.
[40:03]
I would like to. And bodhisattvas who wish to tread all paths and so on, There it is, something to learn, something to recite, something to remember, something to share with others. Well, that's probably enough of the sutra for now. There's quite a bit more, but that seems like a little teaching. Pardon? You mean from the place where it says, then the Bodhisattva Dhridhamati questioned Devaputra,
[41:16]
if a bodhisattva wishes to attain samadhi, what dharmas should she cultivate? That part? Devaputra said, a bodhisattva who wishes to obtain this samadhi, to actualize in it and attain this samadhi, should cultivate the dharmas of the world. If she sees those worldly dharmas as neither united with nor separate from the Buddha dharmas, then she is cultivating surangama, shurangama, samadhi. That's the basic practice. Then there's a little discussion afterwards. You want to hear the discussion again? Or is that enough? Huh? No discussion as well? Okay. David Pritchard says, can there be union or separation?
[42:25]
Can there be conjoining or dispersing in relation to Buddha dharmas? put your answers. In relation to the world, there can be neither union nor separation. And even less so. I don't know how it could be less so. Then there isn't a possible to have any. But anyway, even less so in relation to the Buddha dharmas. So even when you're talking about worldly dharmas, there's no union or separation there. And in relationship to the Buddha dharmas, there's no union or separation there. And also, there's no union or separation between the worldly and the Buddhists. So between the worldly and the Buddha, there's no union or separation, because there's no union or separation. And concerning the Buddha dharmas themselves, there's no union or separation. Dhritamati says then finally, what are the motivating dharmas?
[43:41]
And Devaputra says, understanding that the worldly dharmas and the Buddha dharmas constitute a non-duality. This comes to mind. Darkness. Right in darkness there is light. Right in light there is darkness, but don't see it as darkness. Right in darkness there is light, but don't try to find the light in the darkness. And this doesn't mean that they're conjoined or united. What is meant by cultivating dharmas? Understanding that the worldly dharmas and the Buddha dharmas constitute a non-duality. That is cultivating dharmas. In reality, there are two kinds of dharmas. There is neither union nor separation.
[44:44]
All dharmas have a mark of non-arising. All dharmas have a mark of non-ceasing. All dharmas have a mark like space. All dharmas have a mark of non-emerging. And the kitchen left, but Emmanuel didn't. Emmanuel what? Chapter and page, that sounds familiar. This is in the Chinese, page 636A. In the English translation by Lamarck, it's page 164. You're welcome. Emma, over there.
[45:48]
That upon meeting what? Well, this is a vow. In other words, I vow to learn how, when meeting the Buddha Dharma, to renounce worldly affairs. I vowed to learn non-attachment. This is his vow. This is his vow to arouse the mind of Bodhi. But worldly affairs is like, you know, what is it, shopping, right? So I vow to renounce attachment to shopping, and worldly affairs is attachment to renouncing shopping. So renouncing shopping is, you know, super mundane.
[47:19]
But then, after I renounce shopping and attain, you know, personal liberation, then I renounce personal liberation and attain shopping. And I must confess, I haven't quite got that far yet. But basically, I'm in regression from shopping. Slipping back into some attachment to the super mundane of waiting in the car or whatever. Waiting in the car, meditating on non-attachment. Yes? Right. Right. And bodhisattvas who understand that suffering doesn't arise, that helps them work with people who think suffering does arise, has arisen, and would like it to stop.
[48:53]
So then bodhisattvas can help people who are in that situation. To understand the non-arising endowment is very helpful to work with beings who are into arising and ceasing, who are suffering from impermanence that they have or have not been starting to notice. In fact, if dharmas did arise and cease, there would be no possibility of freedom from suffering. There would just be, you know, endless suffering from the arising and ceasing. There would be no way to get out of it. If they ultimately, if that's what was happening, they would be like, you know, babies born. just getting smashed, babies born and getting smashed, that would just go on forever. There would be no freedom from it if there wasn't some ultimate truth that this doesn't actually, this is an illusion. But those who wish to help beings who are in this suffering need to understand that, what the Mayanas say.
[50:01]
Yeah, can't be united and can't be separated. That's why we need to understand more on duality so we can, you know, not stay away from the suffering. We've got personal liberation in that, you know, we'd stay away from all the suffering. We wouldn't, I shouldn't say we would, but we could let go of that, of course, but if we held on to that, we would be separate from the suffering and the beings would not receive assistance. Am I saying they no longer suffer? No, I'm not saying they no longer suffer. I'm saying they no longer suffer because they understand that the suffering and the freedom from suffering are neither joined nor separated.
[51:13]
And so they can do this Buddha's work of helping beings understand. But they're playing in the samadhi while they're contemplating suffering and feeling pain. They joyfully dive in the ocean of pain, play with other beings, and teach them the samadhi. So they also can find joy in the world of suffering, joy in the midst of the worldly dharmas of the arising and ceasing of pain and pleasure. Yes? Nonduality is Nonduality is both
[52:33]
not separate and not conjoined. Right. Pardon? Is that always what it means? Always what it means is a worldly dharma. Okay? Can you see that that was a worldly dharma? Yeah, that's a worldly dharma. And so we understand that that worldly dharma is not separate from buddha-dharmas, which are not like into, like, is that always what it means? You know, you're a person who is concerned about, is that always what it means, right? Yeah? Yeah. So that, you know, people are concerned with that stuff, like, is that always what it means, you know? This is the interest you have. Okay? So I can get into, no, it's not always, or yes, it always is, or sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.
[53:37]
We could do that. That's funny, you know. But I'm not avoiding that. I'm just getting another worldly dharma, which is to mention that our worldly conversation here is neither conjoined with nor separate from the Buddha dharmas. Seeing that is cultivating the samadhi. Trying to get an answer to that question, and get that settled, and move on to the next attainment, this is like, you know, worldly activity which we contemplate. Okay? But we don't like, say, look at this worldly phenomenon of trying to, like, get a hold of under control, get Buddha Dharma straight. so that, you know, I can be like, whatever, enlightened or something, a little bit better person. This is like normal worldly activity, right? Maybe high-quality worldly activity.
[54:38]
Even low-quality worldly activity is not joined with Buddhadharma. And also high-quality worldly activity is not joined to Buddhadharma. But it's not separate either. That's what we need to understand according to this sutra. We need to balance state. Not so much trying to get stuff, but seeing the emptiness, for example, of the question, whatever the question is. But not by trying to say, you know, I don't have any questions. No, I've got a ton of empty questions, and I'm going to put them out there on the table to, like, you know, enjoy the emptiness of all of them. That's the way to cultivate the samadhi. Okay, now it's eleven-twelve, and shall we keep going?
[55:51]
Roll around the floor or answer this. There's like about six questions and then there's going to be more. Should we take the questions? Huh? What? How many? So vote. How many people want to take the questions? Raise your hand. How many people had enough? Was it enough? Did they win? Lately? How many people want to roll on the floor? Okay, that won. I think that would have, didn't it win? Now, are some of the people who voted for rolling on the floor, did you vote for some of the other options already? That's okay.
[56:53]
This is a free Buddha land. Yeah, so go ahead. Hit the floor now. If you want to. Oh, there he goes. Another one hit the floor. It's easy up in those towns. So, is anyone close to us stopping? No? Are you... I know, I understand that you want to ask your question. All the people were asking... Would you rather not stop? Okay, well, what's your question? Say more about it? I could, but... But I don't feel like now is the right moment. But I will continue to do this probably as long as I live.
[57:57]
So just, if you ever see me again, and I'm talking, you can check. I mean, I'm committed to talk, to have everything I say from now on be expressing the meditation on the worldly dharmas that are coming up, being conjoined or separate from the buddhidharmas. Okay? Hello? What? Yeah, do you understand what I said? Yeah, so I'm doing that now. So this is what I'm saying about it now, right? Do you see? If you don't get it, you can check. Well, I'm happy to talk to you about this. No, it shows that I'm willing to talk to you, that I'm not trying to have a Buddha-Dharma conversation with you. Pardon? Right.
[59:03]
And obviously it's not conjoined, right? We can see that, can't you? Yeah, so they were cultivating the samadhi, so this is a little bit more on that, right? But that's not much, right, so far? Right? But maybe that wasn't enough for you. Yeah, so I'm just saying, I can just say a little bit like this now, and I can go on for several hours, but that's nothing compared to if I live for innumerable eons, you will be able to hear so much more about how about this. So I'm just saying, we're going to say this a little bit now, but we're committed to this forever, right? Until all beings are saved. And if you don't get it sometime, just check to see if in fact that's what we're talking about. You're welcome. Is that enough? Are we okay now? What do you want to say? Yes? I want to thank you.
[60:05]
Oh, I want to thank you for showing up here. You're looking good. Sure. That's right. That's right.
[60:33]
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