Someone said to me recently, thank you for the challenge. And I said, what's the challenge? And he said, to be here. So it is challenging somehow to be here, to be in your place, to arrive and actually completely be here. Not just glimpse, but wholeheartedly

[01:05]

receive the place we are, to find our place right where we are. This is a challenge for us. And when we find our place right where we are, it is proposed that the practice occurs Realizing the final point. Realizing the koan. The koan which is that everything that comes is the Buddha's teaching. As you see, I brought a carved dragon with me.

[02:25]

I have some other carved dragons, too, for you. Would you like to hear them? I see a close relationship between Dogen's teaching of Genjo Koan and chapter sixteen of the Lotus of the Inconceivable Dharma scripture, chapter sixteen, and the teaching of Incention Beings. Basically, again, Here's the teaching that all things in the universe are engaged in Buddha's activity.

[03:42]

All things in the universe are engaged in Buddha's activity, and Buddha's activity is to teach the Dharma. Everything in the universe is teaching the Dharma. Forever. That's the way it always is, that everything is teaching the Dharma. That's the eternal Buddha. Doesn't last, it's just that it's always so. In this changing world, in this fleeting world, every moment of it is teaching us Dharma.

[04:49]

And the Genjo koan, the first sentence says something, in English we say, when all dharmas, when all things, when all beings are buddha dharma, which means when all things are teaching the dharma, then there are practice, There is delusion, ignorance, Buddhas, births, death. But that's an abbreviation of all things. When all things are teaching, then we have all things. When everything is teaching the Buddha Dharma, we have in which there are delusion, enlightenment, birth, death, Buddhas, sentient beings, and practice.

[06:12]

Everything in the universe is teaching, is manifesting the koan, is manifesting ultimate truth and showing it to us. That's the first sentence of the Genjo koan. The second sentence... but if we don't understand the first sentence, if we don't understand that when everything's teaching the Buddha Dharma we have this and here this is given to us to understand that this is the teaching of Buddha. But if we don't understand this, if this subtle, inconceivable Dharma is somehow we can't receive it, the next sentence is, when all things are without abiding self, in that context,

[07:30]

we don't have the universe. The universe goes away. So if we can't receive and understand the first sentence, we have the second sentence. And after the second sentence, after the universe is taken away, after we have the universe taken away in the selflessness of the universe, can be taken away, ultimately, because actually this universe, which is given to us to teach as Dharma, it actually cannot be found. So here's the universe of Dharma, but if we think we can find it, it's hard for us to receive it as the teaching. if we can receive it we actually understand that it can't be found if we understand that it can't be found we can receive it but most people think they can find something in the universe and to accept this as the Dharma so then we have second sentence and the second sentence

[08:53]

says, this universe which is given to you, every part of which is teaching you the Dharma, you can't find. And all these things you can't find are teaching you the Dharma. It's not that they're not there, they're only there, they're only not there when you look carefully. But when you don't look carefully, they are there. they are teaching you the Dharma very nicely, perfectly, all the time. So then the third sentence is that we can go beyond the universe and no universe. But most of us will need the universe taken away to accept that the universe is teaching us. And there's a parallel in the Lotus Sutra. The Buddha is teaching. The father is giving the medicine. Some of the children take the medicine.

[09:56]

Great. Here's the medicine. This is medicine. This is medicine. This is medicine. Everything is medicine. The Buddha is here giving you medicine. If you receive it, you'll be healthy. If you don't, then the Buddha goes away. After the Buddha is gone, I'll take the medicine, whatever it is. And then when you take the medicine, the Buddha comes back. And then, so that's the dragons for you. And then the story of the, move over a little bit. the story of the national teacher and the non-sentient, the non-feeling beings teaching the Dharma is also like this, I feel.

[11:05]

At the beginning of the Book of Serenity, there is a story, the first story in the Book of Serenity is the World Honored One ascends the seat. There's the world-honored one. There's the teaching of the Dharma. There's the active Buddha expounding the Dharma. There she is sitting on... And before anybody can go up to Buddha and say, what's the Dharma? before anybody can miss the fact that the Buddha is teaching the Dharma, or actually they may have missed, but before they can say anything about missing it, wait a minute, clearly observe that Dharma is being taught. It's like this.

[12:12]

Otherwise somebody might come up to the Buddha and say, what's the Dharma? And Buddha doesn't very often Do you see me? I'm the Dharma. When you see me, you see the Dharma. When you see the Dharma, you see me. I came here to show you the Dharma. I'm teaching you the Dharma. Buddha doesn't necessarily say that every time. What's the Dharma? So then he says, it's something. So the monk went to the national teacher and pretended like he didn't understand that the national teacher was the mind of the ancient Buddhas. The mind of the ancient Buddha is the activities of the ancient Buddha. And the activity of the ancient Buddha is the teaching of the Dharma. The national teacher is the teaching of the Dharma, of course. The monk goes to him and pretends like he doesn't see the national teacher teaching the Dharma. So he says, what is the mind of the ancient Buddhas?

[13:17]

What is the teaching of the Dharma? So now, I won't say it's me. I'll say it's that wall over there. So the monk says, well, is the wall doing Buddha's work? Is the wall teaching the Dharma? And the National Teacher says, Yes, of course, totally. The monk says, Why can't I hear it? Why can't I hear it? It's happening, not the hearing the Dharma. And even if you don't hear the Dharma, that doesn't hinder that which is hearing the Dharma. Even if you say, you know, I don't hear the Dharma.

[14:23]

Even if you pretend for the sake of a good story, I don't hear the Dharma. Actually, the one who's hearing the Dharma is right there, snickering. I wonder if they're falling for this. This is going to make a good story. It's going to help Dung Shan. Even if you pretend not to understand, which some of us sometimes pretend not to understand, that's still not going to hinder the way of understanding. So go right ahead and don't worry about it. And then the monk says, what sort of a person hears the teaching of insentient being?

[15:39]

What sort of a person hears everything? What sort of person hears the teaching of the Dharma of the universe? And the national teacher says, the saints have that ability. And then the monk says, well, teacher, do you have that ability? Can you hear it? And the one who's teaching the Dharma, like the walls, says, no, I can't hear it. And the monk says, well, if you can't hear it, how do you know that everything's teaching it. The national teacher says, fortunately for you, I can't hear it, because if I could hear it, I would be the ones who can hear it.

[16:41]

I would be like the saints. And then you wouldn't be able to hear my teaching you the Dharma. I take the form like you're pretending to be so I can talk to you. I can be a saint or not. In your case, for your benefit, I'm not a saint so that I can teach you. I have no choice about this. But I can be an ordinary person. I can also be an insentient being. But you don't hear them either.

[17:51]

So if I'm a sage, I can't help you. And if I'm an insentient being, I can't help you. So I'll be like you, so I can help you. I'll teach you as you, so you can be the teacher. You can be a saint or you can be a bodhisattva. But anyway, you can hear the Dharma. And if you become a saint, by the example of the ordinary person who initiated you, you'll be able to give up saintliness if people need you to do so. Anyway, the monk goes on pretending that he doesn't understand and says, well then, ordinary people would have no hope of salvation, would have no way to receive this teaching. No, the actual teacher says, I'm here to teach ordinary people.

[18:54]

I don't teach saints. I would say, actually, he could teach saints how to be ordinary people, and then he could teach them. But first the saints would have to give up saintliness in order to receive the teaching. Receivable Dharma. So yesterday, he finally found an eye, an eyeball in the story. You know, the eyeball that he found was... How come the teacher...

[20:01]

wouldn't be able to teach if he was a sage or... Was that the eye you brought up? Why couldn't the monk hear him when he was teaching? The teacher didn't hear the non-sentient. Oh, why if he could hear it would the monk not be able to hear? He brought up that eye Dogen's teaching, you know, Shobo, the storehouse of eyes of true Dharma. So all those spasticles have an eye in them. He picks these stories that have an eye in them and he studies that eye. So this story is the eye of this story. about insentient beings teaching the Dharma.

[21:07]

And so we enjoyed discussing that yesterday. And also I noticed at one point Rev. Al said, it's so obvious that insentient beings are teaching the Dharma. Didn't you say that? Yeah. So how come no one couldn't get it? Is that what you said? It's so obvious. Is that what you said? So it's so obvious, why did the National Teacher hear it? It was so obvious. And when he was saying that, I thought the lights were on too brightly when he was asking that question. It was so obvious, I could hardly see. So bright. You can't stand to see it.

[22:22]

It's so bright, it's humbling, and it's not something for me to see. And I didn't feel like it was super loud, so I couldn't stand to listen to it. But in our negotiations yesterday, it was so obvious, it's so obvious that we can't stand to see it. It's hard to actually be here with it. It's so bright. So we make carb dragons. And if we make them, hopefully in the process of making them, we'll wind up being here and get used to the light, which is so obvious.

[23:39]

It's so obvious you cannot see it. If you try to see it, you don't see it. You can actually not see light. You can only see it reflected. Where? Where it is. In everything. But sometimes you look away from everything to the light and it just, you can't stand to look at it. It can't be seen. So then you're back to these of light that are totally reflecting the light. And then here we are again. Everything's reflecting the light. Now find your place there. find your place here where everything is reflecting the light.

[24:42]

In other words, everything is teaching the Dharma. And making carved dragons can help us settle here. It's good. I've told this story before, you know, about this story about a man meeting a Native American shaman. And the shaman says, tonight I want you to find your place. And so he spends the night looking all over for his place. And the next morning, the shaman asked him, did you find your place? And he said, no. I looked all night, but I couldn't find it. And the shaman said, where do you want to go? He said, over there behind those rocks.

[25:43]

He said, that's your place. So he was carving a dragon, you know, finding his place. Tried, tried, and tried, and tried. And then... in his process of trying to find his place, when he finished trying to find his place and not finding his place, he . So actually you do find your place when you carve your dragon. And there you receive the teaching. And there you talk about it with whoever will talk to you.

[26:50]

someone might think it's a favorable condition that we have our final day of practice on the birthday that the teacher one of the teachers who teaches that everything in the universe is engaged in Buddha's work You're engaged in Buddha's work. I'm engaged in Buddha's work. Carved dragons are engaged in Buddha's work. Everything is engaged in Buddha's work in the whole universe. And this is not something which we see. And it's not something we can grasp. It's the inconceivable, subtle dharma that they're teaching. Everything's teaching an inconceivable, unthinkable, unstoppable dharma.

[28:14]

And so the birthday is today. Lovely day for us to conclude. Although we have another morning tomorrow. This is our last full day to celebrate the teaching that everything's engaged in teaching. And the teaching about, and then, you know, in the Lotus Sutra, after the Buddha tells us that basically everything's teaching, everything's teaching, always teaching, and sometimes goes away so that you'll appreciate that. And he tells you that if you're very generous, very gracious and gentle and tender with all these things,

[29:17]

tender with all these things, upright with all these things, peaceful with all these things, then you will see in all these things Shakyamuni Buddha teaching the Lotus Sutra. So that's why I asked you to chant this morning to tie together the Lotus Sutra the self-receiving and employing samadhi, the genjo koan, these all work together. This chapter 16 is a chapter very dear to the ancestor Dogen. So we recited one of his favorite chapters to him this morning. and gave him rice and cake. He also liked cakes, especially painted cakes.

[30:24]

So auspicious day today, very auspicious intensive. Again, it's amazing how healthy we were. and how fully participating we were able to be. It's really amazing. It's almost as awesome as the inconceivable Dharma. It's wonderful to have been able to do this intensive with you. And I'm very grateful to all the beings who supported you to make your great efforts. If there's anything you'd like to offer to the Buddhas, you're welcome.

[31:40]

You said something the other day about how practicing carving dragons is not to perfect your dragons or your dragon carving technique. Does that sound right? I don't think I said that, but... Something like that? Well, I don't know if it was like that even, but that's true. What did I say the purpose was? Well, that's what I wanted to ask you. Does anybody remember what I said the purpose of carving dragons is? Don't be shy. What? No. No. Is to be intimate with the carved dragon. The purpose of carving the dragon is to be intimate with it. That's the point.

[32:56]

That sounds like something that you're working on. working on perfecting your intimacy. You could try it that way, but then you will realize that if you're trying to perfect it, that will interfere with realizing intimacy. For example, you've got to let the card dragon contribute too, and the card dragon will be imperfect. So you've got to be open to imperfection in order to have intimacy. Being open, though, is part of carving the dragon. That's right. It's part of carving and it's part of intimacy. Intimacy is not, look, I'm going to make you a perfect person or make me a perfect person and then you tell me I don't want to. Yes, you do. I'm going to make you that way. What if I'm trying to perfect being open to imperfection? What if you're trying to? That's still the carved dragon, right? Well, it is a carved dragon, yes, and also we want to be intimate with that person who's trying to do that. We don't want to stop her from doing that.

[34:00]

We want to be intimate with her. So eventually you just can't do anything. Yeah, eventually you can't do anything except with everybody. And you have no control over when you can do that. And you have no control, but you're totally responsible. For everything. But not by yourself. You're totally responsible for everything together with everything. And that you realize through practicing training in intimacy. But I can't realize it by myself. That's right. And you're not by yourself, so you're all set up. But I'm trying to realize it by myself. Yeah, yeah, that's what you think. So I should just go along thinking that until I can't think it anymore?

[35:03]

Say again? I should just go along thinking that until I can't think it anymore? Don't just go along thinking it. Think it and be in conversation with other people. Let us know that you're thinking that so we can help you get to the place where you won't think anymore, that you're thinking that by yourself. You'll realize that we're helping you think that you're thinking by yourself. But until then, I'll just continue thinking that I'm trying to do this by myself. You will, yeah, you will. Okay. incalculable eons, and you'll continue a few more weeks. But if you don't get it, but now you're getting it out. Now you're in an environment where you can express the delusion that you can do something by yourself, that you can think. Which I totally believe. I got a mind of my own.

[36:05]

I'll be all right alone. Don't need anybody else. Yeah, so you get that out. Now you're starting the conversation. Now you're inviting the true dragon to come. Now the true dragon can come and scare you into submission. Okay, okay. I'm not doing it by myself. I get it. Okay? All right. All right. Confessing. Good. When I do it, or when I think I'm doing it by myself. Yeah, good. Confess it to the real dragon. The real dragon will... meet you and help you become free of believing that you can do anything by yourself. I also believe that I'm confessing by myself. Just so we're being honest with each other.

[37:06]

You're doing a really good job of being honest. That's great. I was walking down the line, and I wanted to get here. And Rachel came and gave me the chance to sit there and look at things in a different perspective, closer. But I was liking walking down the line to get here. May need help constructing the question. I've been pondering these days about the unconstructedness.

[38:11]

Can you hear her? I was thinking these days about the unconstructedness in stillness and that it's unstained and that we cannot recognize. The thought of our habitual patterns and of our being recognized cannot... We can recognize our karma. ...cannot stain the unconstructedness in stillness. Right, that's right. Unstained world cannot stain her. Our habitual patterns that can be recognized are filtered by the unconstructedness in stillness?

[39:12]

Not filtered. I don't think the unconstructedness... Are they constructed in the unconstructedness? Made. They're made. So it says the made things, like mind and objects, They enter the unconstructedness and leave the unconstructedness. They enter realization and leave realization. They move beyond realization and go beyond realization. So all the constructed things are swirling around in this unconstructedness and without moving anything or changing anything the Buddha's work is performed. But all these constructed things entering and leaving the realization. They're born there. They're constructed there. They're born out of there. They're born out of there. I don't know if they're born out of there.

[40:15]

Where are they created? They're created where they are. Created in their relationship. They're created in their relationship. relationships don't have locations. So there really isn't a place where our relationship creates us and where our mind is created. And I'll follow up that with this pondering arises. At times I feel there too. Unconstructedness and stillness on one hand and karmic habitual things on the other. And I am opening to understand that perhaps... They're not other from each other? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. In that, if that is so, is it true that all we have to recognize is karmic affairs?

[41:15]

Right. Is that all we have? All we have to recognize is karmic affairs. Sentient beings, recognizers, just have karmic consciousness. It's boundless, it's unclear, and there's no basis to it. There's no place where it is. It's not even in unconstructedness and stillness. However, it plunges into and flies out of unconstructedness. It plays there. That's all we have. But we also have unconstructedness and stillness completely surrounding us all the time. It's just that we can't recognize it with that which goes into it and comes out of it. It's included in it and merges in it and goes beyond it. But we can't... And so these mind and objects are carved dragons. By taking care of the world, that's how we're taught about Dharma.

[42:19]

Taking care of our karma, every karma, and using karma in a certain way with these little carved dragons, by becoming intimate with our karma and using our karma, for example, as offerings to Buddhas, not so much just to be good students of Buddha, but in being reverent we become intimate with our carved dragons. And then we realize they're teaching us about what isn't the karmic world. But where the karmic world is free, the world of liberation is free. So by caring for the carved dragons, by caring for mind and object, by caring for our actions, by using our actions as a way to be reverent to Buddhas, which is also a way to be reverent to our actions. Buddha or disliking Buddha, but becoming intimate with Buddha, not liking our karma or disliking our karma, but becoming intimate with it.

[43:30]

Then we open to where karma is actually living, which is living in this Dharma. Then we allow the Dharma to and liberate Our karma. Thank you. You're welcome. Is there going to be a cook gender today? Can you come? See you there. Bring us date? May I unfold them?

[44:39]

Please. Thank you so much for your teachings, this intensive. I've really felt nourished and supported by them. You're welcome. I want to confess what I'm calling the smallness of my faith. Okay. And to reveal and disclose your lack of faith? Yeah. Before the Buddhas? Before the Buddhas. Hello. Yeah, I believe that I can be alone and I

[45:48]

often believe that I am alone. That's my confession. And I've been practicing offering my small ceremonies to the Buddhas, and actually I can feel that that helps. You're offering some small ceremony. Yeah. I mean, I can feel many times when I do that, I feel something in my body that I interpret. I don't know, maybe I'm interpreting it wrong, but like I'll involuntarily take a deep breath or I'll feel myself see too much or something. Even so... A perceptible response. That's a perceptible response, yeah. but then after a while, or sometimes it just goes flat, it starts to feel mechanical.

[46:56]

Mm-hmm. And just sometimes... Response. Oh, well. Yeah. The response is there according to the teaching, but it's imperceptible, and when it's imperceptible sometimes, you doubt it. Right? That's what you're saying? I doubt it, and... You don't think the mechanical thing is... Great. But also sometimes I get into some places of despair. And I saw at one point when I was in one of those places that one of the thoughts that fed the despair was that I was alone. And it didn't help to, at that point, it didn't help to tell myself the teaching.

[47:58]

More was responding to this idea that I was alone. It seemed like. So that's my, I want to confess that. All right. And then on top of that, I feel like being an ordained person, it's harder for me. it's harder for me to be generous with my feeling of small faith. I think I should have a bigger faith. Yeah, maybe some other people do too. It's hard on you too that they might think so too, right? Right. I think, yes, I imagine that other people think that too, right? Yeah. Yeah, so that's part of the, on the focusing quality of training as a priest is that people have uh... you know they have high standards for even if they don't have expectations they have high standards that they feel you've committed to be devoted to not everybody expects you to realize them some people I don't expect you to realize them

[49:22]

I just understand that you are devoted to very high standards. You're devoted to very big faith, but I don't expect you to have realized it. You're devoted to these great Bodhisattva precepts. Everybody knows that priests are committed and devoted to those, and some people expect that they've already realized them, which makes things tough. for everybody. But that's part of what you're signing up for. So when it's mechanical or imperceptible, and then I feel like I'm failing, I judge that I'm unworthy. You don't have faith in the imperceptible. mutual assistance. You don't have faith in the, a strong faith in the fact that you are actually, when you do the actually requesting the Buddhas to meet you.

[50:25]

You actually, this is a request here, and as soon as you request, as you request, right there in your request is the response. You don't somehow just somehow can't really see this. Yes. But that's the deep one. That's the deep one. That's always going on. Even when you feel like, hey, I made a request, that was great, and I got a total response, that was wonderful, that's fine. But even at that moment, this one that you can't perceive is going on. And sometimes actually when you're near to the deep, is when the faith would be, as you get closer to the imperceptible, the faith gets tested more. So like, what is it, Mother Teresa has that problem, right? After a while she thought she wasn't even making a request. Or she thought she was making a request but there was a mechanical, it was mechanical and there was no response.

[51:26]

So, you know, you're you're struggling with this is a normal thing on the path to struggle with this thing of I'm making a request but I don't really perceive a response or even I'm not even going to make a request because I feel despair when I make a request and don't get a response maybe I feel better if I didn't make a request because then if I didn't get a response I would say well maybe if I didn't And so on. So you're struggling with that. That's a wonderful struggle. I hope you can keep eating food so you can keep it up. Thank you. You're welcome. And I want to confess one other thing. Yeah. When you, just before the talk, when you, just before you came in to give the talk, and I was not ready, I was standing there, And I didn't bow when you and Al walked by.

[52:32]

It just kind of escaped my, I didn't catch it soon enough. There were a couple other times recently when I walked by you or you walked by me, and it wasn't a formal situation like that, but I I felt I should. I wanted something in me. I wanted to kind of bow just to acknowledge your presence. And I don't know why I didn't, but I didn't feel good about that afterwards. You felt some repentance about it for some reason? Yeah. You'd like to be in closer accord with that spirit? Yeah. That spirit of reverence for the Buddhists? which we act out with each other thank you very much Huang Bo says mind.

[54:01]

And I find it very interesting. And then Basui says Buddha nature is the body of the precepts. Precepts are the workings of Buddha nature. And sometimes I'm tempted to think that there is nothing more to say. You're tempted to think that? Temptation? I'm confused. I'm not sure whether to really believe it or not. Someday maybe you can go on a retreat called Yielding to the Temptation of Nothing More to Say. Just, you know, for like two minutes sometime. No, more than two minutes. He yielded that temptation. Sounds good. But I'm curious if Dogen has something different to say.

[55:12]

Does he have something different to say? Something to add. Yeah. He definitely does. What would that be? What would that be? The rest of my life, I will tell you. Day by day, I will show you what Mordogan has to say about it. Why don't you come first, Kate, since you haven't come up, have you? I would like to tell a story.

[56:20]

Yesterday morning I was having a happy time spinning a ceremony of Zazen where I asked to come support me and then offered my Zazen of this period as a gift to the Buddhas and let go of judging what this period would bring and good enough as a gift and was able to relax and be patient. And when the bell rang, ending the period, feeling what a blissful period of Zazen that was. And then the next period, I started the same way and these doubts arose in me.

[57:34]

And so these... I want to confess my doubt. Okay. I heard a few days ago that of this teaching is to practice zazen without any hope for gain and then come back and do it again. I still want some gain. I want something to hold on to. By the way, that's not exactly the heart of the Zazen. That is the ceremony of Zazen. The heart of the ceremony of Zazen.

[58:43]

If we practice that way, body and mind will drop away and the actual Zazen, which is not just my effort to practice with no gain, that will be realized. So the way you describe sitting is the correct way to practice the ceremony of Zazen. To do it knowing that it doesn't reach the heart and to do it without trying to get to the heart and to do it without trying to get anything else either. That's the way to open to the heart. And the body and mind drops away in that effort. That kind of effort is the effort of sloughing your body and mind which is trying to get something. And in that practice, you open to the actual zazen, which is not a ceremony. It's all of us working in this unconstructed, imperceptible way.

[59:48]

That's the actual zazen. Or that's the situation in which we're actually living and practicing in, and being there. but the way you're working on that ceremony is correct. And then doubts arise, and the thing you do then is to reveal these doubts and see if you feel kind of uncomfortable with these doubts and would like to let go of them before the Buddhas. And then maybe you can go back again and be wholeheartedly offering, inviting the Buddhists who are already with you to practice with you and making offerings to them again for another period with a modest attitude about this, not trying to get anything, just offering to them and not trying to get something from them, but receiving them, inviting them to come without trying to get them to come.

[60:49]

So go back to that practice, and then if you doubt it again, confess the doubt, and then be able to practice again. And if it's blissful, that's okay, but you don't try the next period to get the bliss again, of course. And if you do try to get the bliss, then you doubt the practice of practicing without trying to get bliss. And you feel bad about, we feel bad actually about doing a practice to get bliss. We feel bad about that actually, probably, someplace. Revealing that discomfort about that. We then do another period, and this time again the period happens, but we're not trying to get bliss, and then because we're not trying to get bliss, we're just trying to be generous. Bliss comes, which we give away, and the bell rings. Keep it until the bell rings. and so on. So that's the ceremony, which you can, as you say, you can spin different styles.

[61:59]

Epic period is a new, what do you call it, new thread in the ancient fabric of our practice. But it's this concept of coming back and doing it again and again with no gain. Yes. Does that mean it has no meaning? What I do has no meaning? Does no gain mean no meaning, as I said? No, this path actually is very meaningful, but it's the path of not trying to get meaning, because trying to get meaning means you feel meaningless. Without meaning, so then to try to get meaning is like institutionalizing meaninglessness. but to practice without trying to get meaning. And particularly, you know, those two characters I told you about is called gi, which means meaning.

[63:03]

It means meaning, or justice, or righteousness. It also means meaning. And so we take the person and put it together with meaning, and that's the word for ceremony. So this ceremony you're doing is a ceremony where you're not trying to get meaning, you're trying to give yourself to the ceremony. And giving yourself to the ceremony, you give yourself to meaning, and then meaning gives itself to you. But if you're trying to get meaning, that's not the ceremony. Well, actually, the ceremony that most people are doing is trying to get meaning. It's a person being separate from the meaning. The person's separate from the meaning. The person's trying to get meaning. That's not the ceremony. The ceremony is the person and the meaning are together. And again, if the person and the meaning are together, and then the person thinks, I want to get the meaning, then the person separates herself from the meaning. So you give yourself to the ceremony, and if you feel like you're trying to get meaning, you confess that.

[64:09]

He confessed that I feel separate from the meaning of life and the meaning of the ceremony and the meaning that's part of the word for ceremony. I feel separate from that. And now I go back to my next action and give that again to the ceremony of not trying to get anything. And then the meaning, which is right there, is realized. you're happy. And then the old habit of trying to get something pops up again, and then there's doubt. It's still here. I'm still trying to get something. Yeah, that habit's there, right? I want to get something. I want to get freedom or meaning or... So then just confess that. I confess that. And then if you feel kind of uneasy about it, you've done your job.

[65:13]

And do that before the Buddhas, and that process will melt away the root of this truth of everything. And occasionally, even though that desire is there, it somehow doesn't function really. Sometimes you do things, even though there's a desire to get something, sometimes you do things that aren't for that purpose. Sometimes you do things which are to give right along while you still on some other part of your life want to get. So like, you know, I want to get your approval and then somebody else asks me for something, I do it for them, but I don't do it to get your approval and I don't get it I'm being generous right here. At the same time I still would like to get something from you. But actually I'm practicing generosity right at the same time as part of me wants to get something out of this life. So we have that expression of the horse comes before the donkey leaves.

[66:17]

You don't have to wait until the game evaporates and goes to some other universe. Even while it's there, you can start growing this lotus in the mud of this gaining an idea. You can grow the lotus of generosity in the mud of trying to get something. You don't have to wait to not be that way anymore. The practice right in that normal human situation. And sure enough, Yeah, there was giving to Buddhas without any idea of getting anything from Buddhas. And now there's the idea of getting something from Buddhas right there. But over time, there's generosity, which happened right while some other partner would like to get something from them. You have to get rid of that in order for generosity to function. But you have to integrate the two. And one is meaning and the other is a person. Get them together. Does that make sense?

[67:19]

So you just keep doing this and this practice will melt away the root of that old habit. First, a confession. Okay, is this about right? First, my confession is that your jokes, I realized that it was so that you would notice that I got your jokes.

[68:26]

Oh. So, you noticed. I did notice. I thought, boy, she gets them all. So, you noticed and the message has been delivered. Right on time. I don't have to do that anymore. But that was the reason, and now I don't have to do that anymore. I can just laugh. And it may be that the reason I'm up here is because I want you and everyone else to know that I get it. So that could be, but I still would like to know if to run some and let you respond as you like. You're going to express some understanding now? I'm going to express my understanding of what we've been talking about. Okay, yeah. So that I don't go way off the mark and not know it. Okay, there's a thing right there. You're trying to do something so you don't go off. Yes, yes. No, it's not. That's gaining. There. See that?

[69:32]

You're trying to gain. Well, can I tell you this anyway? Can I tell you a story? Yeah, can I tell you what I said? Yes. Thank you. Go ahead. Thank you. I've always had trouble with... I thought you wanted some feedback. That's why I said that. Yeah, I do, but I haven't... But you didn't want feedback that soon? I got it, though, didn't I? Yeah. Okay. For a second there, I'm not trying to get anything. I have a question. May I ask for... May I say the word feedback when I'm ready for it? Thank you. I've always had trouble with the word meaning, so I just, I don't know why there needs to be any, so I don't play around with that too much. Because I, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't do anything for me. When you were talking about, or some people were talking about, you're laughing.

[70:34]

Oh, they're laughing. All right, they get it. I don't get it. Speaking of practicing and despairing that we are not getting it, that we're not feeling the imperceptible sense in ourselves that this practice is reaching the Buddhas or whatever it is. We don't have this sense always. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but it doesn't matter. We do it anyway. It seems to me that's what you were talking about when you say that we offer this practice as a gift knowing that it does not reach the whole Buddha Dharma. Some words to that. We do it anyway. even though we have no chance of reaching it.

[71:36]

And that seems to me part of what this is all about. We just do it. And the doing is all. Everything else is extra. If I think I've got it this time or don't have it, I'm separating myself from the universe. I'm out here not having it. And the universe is giving it to me. When these things come up in me, I try to say, well, this is what mind does. Yes, this is my karmic mind, and that's the activity of mind, like the eyes of seeing. And so, okay, you do your thing, but that's fine. But that has nothing to do with what I'm doing. And try to come back to what am I doing? And whenever the words come up, that's not it.

[72:38]

I feel partway through putting my foot on the floor and shifting my weight. And even the fact that I'm noticing that is extra. I suppose the gain that I'm looking for is, I want to know the unknowable here. I want to know that I am fully given over to whatever it is I'm doing at this moment if I'm just breathing out. I'm just sitting. I'm just between my shoulder blades. But even the noticing is extra. But nevertheless, I sit, I walk, and try to let that meet me in the universe.

[73:43]

But all of these thoughts, I just have to let it go because they're just thoughts. Feedback. I feel you said good. practice instructions and it would have been good for you to have asked for feedback many times while you were doing it. Is there time or do you want to go back to one of those things or it's too late, I guess. No, but it would have been better if you said, like when you said, it's all about action, everything else is extra. You could have stopped there and said feedback. Okay. What I said was saying the same thing, which is why I didn't stop. But let's take the action.

[74:46]

I just did it. Oh. I missed it. I said it was good. It was very good. All those things were good, but you didn't leave any space for anybody to participate until the end, where you stopped. There were many points where you could have interacted with me that you missed. I was there saying kind of like, but you didn't invite me. You were holding me away, formally holding me away, which is fine, I agreed to it. But I said, oh, there, there, there. Like, I think more than ten times I had something to respond to there, and you didn't. You told me not to come in. You told me to stay. So I did. And I thought each one of these things was good. But then you went from one without any, there was no space there.

[75:48]

You jumped into the next one. And then you told me to stay away, so I did, not to get in there. And then another one. So you're telling all these good things, but there's no space between them for others to come in. There's lots, in some sense, you're missing how we're participating. So we're not all saying the same thing. I don't know if that's so. Where you say many good things, and some other people do too, maybe I do too. So we say something good, it's good to stop and let the world in, some air there, some space. And then maybe we'll have another good thing to say, and then stop and let So there's a rhythm and a pace thing there that I'm giving you feedback on.

[76:52]

And I'm saying that each element in the sequence was lovely. And I guess I would suggest, feedback for you would be to suggest to look at what it is that happens when you say something which is actually a complete thought, and maybe a lovely complete thought, And then you do another one real fast. There's no rhythm in it. It's just like a... What happens to you there? That you make a point like it's all... I mean, that's a big thing. It's all about action and everything else is extra. That's like a lifetime's work right there to just say that and practice that. Okay? You did it. That's great. But you didn't give in, you didn't, you know, then you just shoved this next thing onto it right away. Plus you told me beforehand not to come in there because I would have ordinarily come in there and said, good.

[77:54]

Right there I would have said, that's good. And I might have said, work on that for 10 minutes. So like you had this train of koans, you know, jammed together. Nobody could get in. You asked me not to. But then what is it that makes you push them together so tightly? Look at that. Is that a question? Do you want an answer? You can answer it now, but I think it's something to look at. You probably know for some time in the future that you'll probably do this. So you can ask me now. Go ahead. My first reaction is that it's been building up for a long time and I'm afraid I won't get to say it all. Yeah, that's part of it. We're afraid we won't be able to say it. We have this great thing to say, And if I give him any space, he may come in here and talk for two weeks. You know, and then I won't be able to get to say the next thing. So I'll say this good thing. I'll say this great thing about it's all practice and it's all action and nothing else.

[78:57]

And I got another one I'm going to get in there real fast. Not to say anything. He might violate that. So I'm going to get the next thing in there real fast to make sure that gets in there. And now here comes another one. I'm going to get all these in here. And I got 15 points to make and I'm going to make each one and I think there's a fear. I'm afraid I won't be able... I think that's what it is. Fear... get our thing in there rather than... I'm afraid I won't get into it, but I'm going to let it not get in there. I'm going to let everybody else come in here and take over the story. I was allowed to say one thing and then everybody else came in and took over. But maybe then after that's over, then they say, do you have something to say? And you say something else, and they jump in again. And then they say, do you have something else to say? And you do, and they jump in. So maybe it gets more like back and forth, back and forth, rather than everybody gets like two weeks.

[79:58]

And the first thing the person says, everybody goes, yes. And then after that, they sort of like tune out. So, you know. That would be the feedback. You have good understanding and then try to present it in bite size to the people you're feeding. Like, here's this, and maybe they'll never let you feed them again, but you gave them one piece and they took it in and then they just grew into great Buddhas. And maybe get another chance later. But you gave your thing wholeheartedly and you didn't try to control your next gift. You do have gifts to give. That's great. Thank you. That make sense? And then keep watching that because probably later, you know, there'll be another case where you'll have great things to say and you'll get a chance and then you'll put one out there and then, here's, I got another one here.

[81:08]

Maybe I'll wait. I'll just put this one out there and see what happens. I'll put this one out as a preview of my next question. When we are in Dokusan, probably, I would sometime like to ask if this is all saying the same thing. But now is not the time. But you did say it. And even though you didn't want to ask it, I would say, we're always saying the same thing. We're always saying Buddha. We're always saying inconceivable Dharma. That's what we're always saying. So since you've just given me the inconceivable Dharma, thank you. don't give me another one right away just to make sure you don't get a chance because your silence after you give me your Dharma words your silence is also Dharma words but in the silence following your Dharma words I can say thank you but if you talk right after your Dharma words with more Dharma words it's hard for me to say thank you or yes or good or whatever or

[82:37]

It might be that you're... Do you want some feedback on that? I saw some gaining idea in that presentation. So... And sometimes if you give a long speech, I can't even remember at what point I saw you veer away. You know, like you're on pretty well, you're right on and sort of veered away. And it might have been nice for me to say, oh, there you got off a little bit there. But I can't remember because you put another one after it that was back on and so on. So I say, you know, a little bit more. Got it. That kind of made me feel like wondering if I come up here too much.

[84:09]

Pardon? What did you say? Well, between the sensible insight that came up before I did and your feedback to Lenore, sorry, made me respond, you know, I had a thought of, well, maybe do I come up here too often or do I ask too much? I think that's a wholesome thought. I think some people who never come up are also thinking that about themselves, that coming up zero is too much. I often wonder if I come up here too much myself. So in that way, it's kind of nice that the intensive's over because I wanted to think about, do I come up here too much? I think it's gracious of us to wonder when we come up if this space is really being given to us. I think that is gracious. And even though I said, please come,

[85:12]

you might feel like, well, maybe I'm butting in front of someone or something, right? So I think it's good to be sensitive to who else might be coming and see someone who's coming or has never come and I've already been once, I might let them go. I think that's good. I think it's a good thing for us to do. But I saw you were kind of careful. You were looking around a little bit. I saw you to see if somebody else wanted to come and you didn't see anybody, so you came. I think if you saw somebody coming that day, Less often than you, you probably would let them go first. So I appreciate that. Okay, thank you. Everybody probably does. Yeah. But also, I mean, I think, yeah, yesterday I was in Dokusan with you, and it was kind of a long, I guess, I don't really know. Dokusan, like... It was longer than standard, yeah. Yeah. So, and then... Standard is, I'll tell you later, how long is it? And then I noticed that that, you know, an effect of that was that two people may have gotten kind of short, shorter than standard tokusan times, and you and another person were late to a meal.

[86:24]

And you were responsible. Totally responsible. Yeah, but I was too. Yeah. And everybody was responsible. But I appreciate you noticing those things. That's nice to be aware of that. You learn the landscape of the community that way. It's like, oh, yeah. Right. that long and then they stayed that long and then he was late and you know I would like you to share the responsibility for this situation right like for you to think of it like when does he need to get when do I need to go when do I need to go serve when does he need to go to dinner you know share of taking care of everybody with me so like yeah I'm talking to someone and someone else is waiting So I'm somewhat concerned about these other people, yeah. And so you bring it up and maybe I say, I think it's okay, you can continue. But the thing, we're both concerned about these people, not just me. It's good to share the responsibility for caring for everyone with the teachers.

[87:25]

Well, then with that in mind, mindful of this, I'll ask what I intended to ask when I came up. The term unconstructedness... Can you speak up a little bit, please? The term unconstructedness in stillness? Yes. I'm wondering how that's related to, how you feel that's related to, or if it's synonymous with the term we call emptiness? I think it's... Okay, so in the Heart Sutra when we say that form itself is emptiness, emptiness itself form, are we talking about carved dragons and true dragons? Okay. Okay, so if I am sitting Zazen, and this is my... I'm offering my carved dragon. It's a beautiful carved dragon.

[88:32]

It looks like it's been outside a little bit. And... So I'm... So we're doing a form, and we... remember that and know that it is empty. Remember the teaching that it's empty. You've heard the teaching, this form is empty. And we practice wholeheartedly with the form, with the empty form, wholeheartedly, complete. In fact, it couldn't be wholehearted without recognizing that it's empty. Yeah, actually, you can be quite wholehearted and when at the wholeheartedness, you know, that's when you realize it's empty. So they're kind of the same moment that the wholeheartedness and the emptiness. To wholeheartedly take care of the dragon, you finally find out that you can't find the dragon.

[89:34]

You get so intimate with it, you can't find it. And that's the inquiry and response. That great inquiry, you feel the great response of the revelation of truth because of your devotion to the form. And we're also giving that generously and graciously, giving that to all beings. We're not only being wholehearted and remembering our emptiness of form. That's the compassion that lives in that emptiness. So that emptiness isn't a cold emptiness, a cold unfindability. There's a heart in there, a loving heart in the middle of this unconstructedness. So the same is true if I'm following my breath or I'm feeling a sensation in my arm. If you follow the breath completely wholeheartedly, you'll find the emptiness of the breath.

[90:39]

Do you recommend that while making an effort to do something wholehearted, you also remind yourself about the teaching of emptiness, or just let that go and let it be discovered upon wholeheartedness? Sometimes, if you remind yourself while you're doing something, it distracts you. sometimes reminding you it makes you more concentrated and more wholehearted. So that's part of the art of meditation is to learn how much of remembering teachings be wholehearted and what sometimes remembering a teaching is kind of a distraction. So that's part of what you have several billion experiments to do with that one. And including talking with another person, looking at the moon, having a hateful thought.

[91:43]

This is a form I am practicing, hopefully wholeheartedly and hopefully with... Be wholehearted with a hateful thought. Bring your whole being to the hateful thought and realize the emptiness of it. And give it away. It's much harder to do with that than with a kind thought. because hateful thoughts are very agitating, and what do you call it, enervating. So it's hard to be wholehearted. But eventually one could verify the emptiness of hate, the unfindability of hatred, and the unfindability of a separate self of anything. The true heart of hatred. Yeah, the true heart of hatred, right. which is the emptiness of it. Thank you for sharing all this with us very much.

[92:47]

Thank you for your energetic inquiry. Pardon? Would it be too much? Would it be too much if Catherine came up? No. I was looking at the watch. It's getting to the wishing hour. It's getting to the hungry lunch for lunch hour. We may stop soon. Who knows? Perhaps. I actually will try to make it short. Don't cut too hard. I won't. Thank you. I intend not to try too hard. Thank you. I had some questions. Relax, relax, boy.

[93:50]

Relax more? I'm telling myself to relax. I have some questions, or maybe it's just a question about insentient beings. So I'll ask it once and maybe I'll go on and maybe not. So, for example, is when you find your actualizing the fundamental point, is that an insentient being? Yeah, it is. You're not, but the finding of the place is actually a non-sentient being. The finding doesn't have feelings. It teaches the Dharma very nicely. It receives the Dharma and gives it back. That might be the whole question and the whole answer, but it has many different variations.

[94:55]

We'll just reflect from another variation that needs to be asked. Okay, this is a little to the side of it about sentient beings. When I asked questions the other day, I think my understanding was that you said, I said at the time, saying that whatever I think of it doesn't reach it, or whatever I feel about it or know about it, whatever it is, doesn't reach it. And so, for example, if it is luminous owl, okay, I don't reach luminous owl in any way. You're thinking about him, doesn't reach him. Right. But what you said, we do reach sentient beings. So to the extent that Lumen Sal is a sentient being... No, no. That's why I'm a little confused about that. You reach sentient being by being a sentient being. Right. So my thinking is a sentient... is thinking of a sentient being.

[96:02]

So my thinking reaches... Say stories. Your story reaches the story. So does my story reach the story of Luminous Owl? No. No, okay, that's what I misunderstood. Your story of Luminous Owl doesn't reach him. Does it reach the story of him? No. No, okay. I misunderstood you. It reaches your story of... Right, okay, thank you. That fits more in my understanding. Your story is generous with itself, you know, and the whole universe is generous with your story, and your story is a sentient being. A sentient being is a story maker. Right. Is the story itself a sentient being? It's a sentient being too, yeah. Okay. The story suffering and your suffering to the extent that you don't understand the story yet as just a story. But my story and my story of stories doesn't reach anybody else's story of stories or stories. That's right. And it doesn't reach anybody else that you have a story about. Okay. You do realize a sentient being at that time. You are a sentient being fully through and through.

[97:05]

And in that is the exact reason why you can never be found. And in that, isn't there an insentient being right here and right there and right there also? Well, in... in your unfindability. Yes. Emptiness is a kind of non-sentient thing. And those, that's... Okay, thank you. Did you say dharmas? Dharmas? No, you're a dharma, and you're sentient. Dharma woman? You're a dharma. Called... What? What? is not a sentient being, no. It's a non-sentient being. A darn good one. So those non-sentient beings of each of the dharmas that we are, those non-sentient beings are completely present to one another.

[98:06]

Yeah, and they're totally exuding the dharma. They're teaching, you know. But there's other non-sentient beings like mountains. So there's the mountains which are teaching and there's also the emptiness of the mountains that are teaching. Everything's teaching. And there's living beings on the mountain and they're teaching too. And their emptiness is teaching. Emptiness is a dharma. Form is a dharma. Emptiness is teaching and dharmas are teaching. I mean, emptiness is teaching and forms are teaching. Sentient beings are teaching. Non-sentient beings are teaching. Everything's teaching. Everything is teaching. and stories realize stories, and sentient beings are storytellers. So when you tell a story, you've reached a sentient being, namely yourself, the storyteller. You have now realized, you've manifested the storyteller. That's what I meant by you realize a sentient being. And you didn't do it by yourself, your story made it possible.

[99:07]

Because a sentient being without a story is not a sentient being. But we are sentient beings, so we do have stories, and we do have stories, so we can teach Dharma. But it's hard for storytellers to understand this, so we have to practice. Sitting in our insentience. In our non-sentient being. Yeah, we have to find our non-sentient being in the middle of our sentient being, which is like... Exactly, okay. Thank you very much. Which isn't very challenging, right? It's the hardest thing. Okay, and maybe we can conclude and have a little break before service. Is that okay? Thank you.

[100:06]

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