In what ways I was trying to control it? Well, first of all, in a way, I've shown an example of how I control my mind. How's that? How's that? Okay. We had this practice of mindfulness of body, right? Mindfulness of body, like mindfulness of posture and breathing, all right? And some people interpret it, and I was one of them, of controlling, you know, so controlling the mindfulness, like mindful of breathing out and breathing in, and then also maybe counting as a way to

[01:20]

maybe check your mindfulness. So I was counting my breathing. But I was... what's the word? Sometimes I would notice that I was not counting my breathing. Even though I had this project called Mindfulness of Breathing, and mindfulness of a number while breathing. I was like counting my breath one to ten and I would notice, you know, sixteen, seventeen, sometimes one, and then that was that. So anyway, at a certain point when I was in a monastery, I said, well actually, you have to follow your breathing and you have to count it.

[02:24]

And I threatened myself with physical harm if I did not. And I, under the threat, I actually was able to not get distracted from my breath. and from counting, one to ten. I also had ways of checking to see how many times I counted from one to ten, so there was cross-checks too going on. And I actually got myself almost entirely, almost entirely under what I thought was control. And it was really dead and mean. That wasn't what I came to Zen to learn. Before I came to Zen I already knew how to be dead and mean. I came to learn to be kind and flexible and relaxed.

[03:29]

And I was getting more and more tense and mean. And almost, again, almost successful at getting myself under control. It was a big effort and I almost succeeded in killing myself. you know, by that kind of cruelty. But I gave it up and I really never went back to it. And ever since I've been just sort of like, what's the word, out of control. And trying to love, not so much being out of control, but trying to love whatever I am. And to love my breath, for example, to love my posture. Also, my posture, aside from my breathing, I also practiced sitting cross-legged for long periods of time, and sometimes I got uncomfortable. And again, in the early days, I used to push myself pretty far into the discomfort.

[04:35]

But sometimes I pushed so far that I thought, this is too much. So I sometimes, when I was sitting, I would sit too long. Too long means I sat so long that I started to tense up. It wasn't like I'm sitting cross-legged and as soon as I get a little bit uncomfortable, I move. I don't do that. necessarily. If I'm sitting still, I often sit still even though I'm a little uncomfortable, or even though I'm quite uncomfortable. I just sit still, but I sit still and I'm relaxed at the same time with my posture and with discomfort. And also if I'm not uncomfortable, I also am relaxed generally. And I usually don't get more tense as I get more comfortable.

[05:43]

Being comfortable doesn't make me tense too much. But sometimes the pain, my body sort of tenses up in response. And then after a while I feel like that's not really helpful. So I change my posture into a posture that I'm more able to be loving towards. and relax with. Well, part of loving is relaxing with things for me. And I've seen, like Mark Twain said, I've watched the sky and I've seen some of the best stars fall. And anyway, I've seen a lot of Zen students quit practicing Zen because they push themselves too hard. Some of my friends from my early days, you know, we were practicing pretty intensely together and they quit because they were just making practice too hard.

[06:55]

They were sitting too long. They were sitting through in too much pain and not being kind to the pain. And so they just said, Zen's too hard, and they quit. But I didn't make Zen too hard, so I haven't quit yet. But it is kind of hard. It is kind of hard. Like I just did a practice period in a monastery called Tassajara. And I was so-called the leader, the Dharma flag teacher for the practice period. And people would ask me, how's it going? And can you guess what I said? What do you think I said? That's a good guess. That's not what I said. Huh? Yeah, I said, it's hard. The people in the practice period asking the leader, how's it going, leader?

[07:59]

And the leader says, it's hard. I'm having a hard time. And they ask me, how's my health? And I say, it's fragile. It's good. I have very good health. I have very good health. And my health is fragile. It's fragile. May I say your health is fragile too? Everybody's health is fragile. Everybody's vulnerable. You don't have to work at being vulnerable. Vulnerable means we can be hurt. We can be hurt. We are not invulnerable. We are not indestructible. We are fragile. And Yeah, and that practice period which I did, it was hard for me a lot of the time. Not always, but oftentimes when I was walking from the abbot's cabin to the zendo, as I was walking, it just, the thought arose in my mind, this is hard, it's hard to walk.

[09:19]

It was hard to walk But it wasn't too hard. Some people said, I hope it's not too hard. I said, it's not too hard, it's just very hard. And it was hard, and it was joyful, and it was hard, and it was joyful. And I felt so supported by the people in the practice period They were so kind to me and so loving to me to support me to keep going. They didn't want me to leave. They kept saying, don't leave. Please stay. And a couple of times I had to leave the monastery and they said, please come back. They wanted this person to come back who was having a hard time. Now, if I wasn't having a hard time, they still might have wanted me to be there. I don't know.

[10:21]

But I was... I had a hard time. I came back to Green Gulch partly because there was a tulip, a tulip, what's the word? Emergency. Do you know what tulip is? Tulip is a flower. Yeah, it's a type of flower called tulip. And it comes, it has like a bulb. You know what a bulb is? No? No? You put it in the ground and put water on it and a flower comes out. Like a lotus, yeah. Except this flower is called tulip. Tulip. So someone sent me tulips to plant. But these tulips have to be planted fast. Otherwise they rot. So I had to come back to plant them. And I was pushing a wheelbarrow full of compost uphill to plant the tulips.

[11:31]

And as I was pushing the wheelbarrow uphill, I thought, oh, this is what it feels like to be at Tassajara. It's hard. Why is it hard? Why is it hard to push a wheelbarrow uphill? Anyway, it was hard. And it was tough to horror was hard, but not too hard. I wasn't tensing up. I was relaxed and joyful and supported to do a hard thing. But in my early days, nobody was telling me to be hard on myself. I was overdoing it. And I realized, if I keep doing this, I'm going to quit. So I stopped doing that. Does that make some sense to you? Yeah. Yes. After you stopped sitting in that way, that cool way and oppressive way, can you say something about what your practice, how would you describe your practice after that and from that time on?

[12:35]

Very exhausting. The first word that comes to mind is amazing. I would sit there and I would just be amazed. I think, how amazing that I'm sitting here moment after moment, day after day, just peacefully sitting here, living my life, doing this practice. I just kept being amazed that I was living sitting still and quiet. And I was very happy. And sometimes it got hard, but again I watched the hardness, and I was generally speaking, I'm kind to my difficulty. Yeah, I pretty much stopped counting. However, I didn't stop being mindful of my breathing.

[13:36]

I've been breathing ever since, and I do notice my breathing. But I don't like... force myself to be more mindful of my breathing than I'm interested in. Like I don't force myself to pay attention to people more than I want to pay attention to people. I don't force myself not to be bored. If I'm bored, I'm kind of like, okay, let's be bored. Bored is what's going on here. Oh, this person is in front of me. This is the person that's going on here. I don't force myself to be with this person. But I'm very happy to be with this person in the way that I want to be with this person. Another thing that happened to me

[14:41]

is that sometimes when I was having interviews, I would be sitting cross-legged and I would sit cross-legged for a long time, like several hours without moving. And I noticed that I got kind of mean to people because I was in so much pain. I kind of like, why are you talking so long? But now I don't push myself so hard, so I don't push myself beyond my patience so much anymore. Maybe occasionally a little bit too much, but mostly if I'm losing my patience, I try to find a way to not do something that's too painful or too advanced a pain for me. so that other people don't have to experience my impatience with my life.

[15:51]

So yeah, I have been kind of, you could say, taking it easy for the last about 48 years. But even though I'm taking it easy, it's not like I'm not working hard. Also, when I was abbot, I think I overworked a little bit. When I was abbot of Zen Center, I have this image of I thought the job of being abbot was like, you know, maybe like this triangle. This is the field. And I couldn't quite do the whole thing. I worked really hard, but I couldn't get into all the corners of the job. And fortunately, I realized that this wasn't the job, that this was the job. And then I stopped overworking and just became a failure.

[16:57]

You know, it's impossible to do it all. And I was kind of arrogant and thought, maybe I could do it all, just work a little harder. And I saw there's no end to it. So I do a little bit. And that's hard. But I don't overwork anymore. I just work hard. I like to work hard, actually. I feel better when I'm working hard or wholeheartedly. And then I can get, I can work too hard. And then, I say, oh, these little signals go off, like basically tension or arrogance or even like thinking other people aren't working hard enough. Even people telling me, I'm not going to work hard.

[18:03]

And to see if, can I really welcome that and let that be. Yes. Yes. But I wonder about interrupting arms I just do that without thinking. It's trying to control something. And it would pull up. let's say that there's apparently some harm going on, and you just walk over to the harm and you interrupt it.

[19:08]

You go over to the harm and you say, excuse me, could I interrupt you for a second? And you have no idea that you're controlling it. They might say, no, no, you cannot interrupt. And you might go, oh, okay, could I ask a question? And so on. you can interact with harm in a way that you might even call it interrupting. But it's just a word. Really you're interacting with it. And you're interacting with it before you even get close to it. But you may feel like, I think it would be good for me to get a little closer to this harm. And you start to get close. But you don't necessarily feel at all like you're trying to control. On the other hand, you can see the harm and you can immediately try to feel like you want to control it. It is totally about letting go of results and it is totally, letting go of results is pretty much the same as totally engaging with the situation.

[20:12]

And I believe in totally engaging with the situation is where we find relief, you know, and freedom from harm. Where we work to protect beings from harm by totally engaging situations where beings are in harm or not in harm. And I believe that tensing up and trying to control is not wholeheartedness. It's a small version of what's going on here. I think when you're fully engaged you have flexibility, You have relaxation. And at the same time, you can tense your muscles. Like I often just pop to my mind, this swimmer named Michael Phelps, when he swims, I think his muscles are working pretty hard along with the other. I mean, those muscles, when they move through the water, are incredibly powerful. But he's the most relaxed of all the swimmers.

[21:16]

I would say that, yeah, that we can fully engage our muscles and make a tremendous effort and be relaxed and not try to control. And when we notice control, we notice it's an energy drain, that trying to control. And again, if I see myself trying to control, there's another opportunity to engage that and not push the the controlling impulse away. Because that would be just another controlling impulse. So interrupting harm, fine. But you can use the word interrupt. Or protect beings, yes. By doing something that's not harmful. By teaching the Dharma in the situation. And Yeah, I think the Buddha teaches the Dharma in a situation in a relaxed way, because it's the way that everything's actually coming together in the situation.

[22:27]

You're welcome. And we have, that's our responsibility, because that's the way we are. We are actually with the program. So it's our responsibility to accept that we are part of it and in truth we're in a peaceful, protective, life-protecting mode. That's really the mode we're in. And we have to engage how things appear in order to enter and realize that realm together. Yes? If you speak to around the whole notion of control, I realize in myself, my biggest inroad there is on a planet. Yeah. Yes. And I've gotten really tired.

[23:31]

Tired? Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I... extricating myself from, like in organizations where you're the finer or the detailed person and you're identified as that, I want to stop exercising that muscle so much. You do? Yes. Do you have plans to stop exercising that muscle? Well, you might not be surprised to hear that I'm not trying to control you. I'm not trying to control you into not exercising the planning muscle. I mean, that's not surprising to you, right?

[24:34]

But I would suggest to you, you could do the same as me. You could treat your planning like I treat your planning. But I don't know if you want to. I think maybe you want, because I'm not trying to get you to stop planning. But maybe you are. But that's another plan. So I guess I would say, it's okay with me if you, are you in this intensive? Huh? Yeah. It's okay with me if you just plan the whole time. I can support you and love you while you're planning the whole intensive. and not try to get you to stop. And in that way, practice the Buddha way with you, even if you don't stop planning. Or even if you stop and then start again, whatever. You could join the Buddhist practice, which is not to suppress the planners.

[25:37]

It's not to, yeah, get those planners to stop it. There's some other planners in the room, I think, maybe. Maybe not as much as you. Maybe they're just planning lunch. But anyway, planning is a common activity of human beings, even little tiny ones. Like my grandson, when he was about four maybe, he said, granddaddy, I just thought of something that would really be fun. And I said, what? And he said, let's take all my animals down into the basement and put them in a tub and fill the tub with water. That was his plan. And he thought that will really be fun. And I didn't say to him, by the time we get there, you'll have forgotten that you thought this would be fun.

[26:44]

I didn't say to him, you think that's going to be fun, but it might not be fun. I didn't say that to him. I just helped him carry all the animals downstairs and put them in the tub. And then I went to get the hose to fill the tub with water. But before I got there, he had already thought of something else that would be a lot of fun. He planned that. In the middle he got done planning that and planned another adventure. It's normal to be doing all these plans. Our nervous system is built to generate plans. But I'm not trying to get that little boy to stop having a nervous system and stop planning all kinds of adventures. And I'm not trying to get you to stop, and I'm not trying to get me to stop. I'm inviting you to join the, what are called, the Friends of Planning Society.

[27:54]

Not to do more planning, but to be friendly to the planners. And the planning may go on, but this thing's going to start growing, this friendship. The planning's going on, the planning's going on, but the friendship's growing. And the friendship can grow and grow and turn into a lotus flower. Growing out of compassion towards the planning. So you have a nice opportunity called a planning activity in your mind. You have a nice opportunity to listen to that, to witness that, and to grow a beautiful relationship lotus flower of perfect wisdom in that field of planning. And I'm not trying to control you into growing that flower. But I am telling you you have this opportunity and actually you have the responsibility to grow Buddha's wisdom in the planning mind.

[29:01]

But Buddha's wisdom grows best when you let the place you're growing, to let it be. To stop trying to control the planning mind. Does that make perfect sense? Yes. I very recently had an experience that has shifted. My husband was very ill, and I couldn't control the illness. And it was clear that he had a terminal illness. And so I asked him what he would like done after his death. And in keeping with his personality, his response was, I don't care. I won't be begging you to do it. And my reaction at the time was, shit, I can plan something else.

[30:06]

And I let go and I didn't plan it. And he died. And maybe for the first time in my life, I didn't plan this huge event, but I discovered that when my, eyes were wide open and I had some kind of clarity. I knew what to do in that moment and then the next moment what to do. And so I didn't plan and yet this exclusively beautiful experience evolved. And so I had the experience that I can trust myself in Why? Without having planned and over-planned, which doesn't often work anyway. So I realized that had been missing. I thought that if I didn't plan it, it wouldn't work out right for... Yeah, or if you don't control it, it won't work out right.

[31:17]

So I have a different relationship. Yeah. But... I think it's the part of expectations of others that I don't, and my responsibility. And I guess it's finding my place in that dance. It's finding your place in that dance, yes. You have your place, and now it's a question of finding it. And when you find your place in the middle of that dance without planning, the appropriate response will come up. But it doesn't mean there's no planning going on. It's just that you find your place in the middle of the planning. And when you find your place there, you realize, oh, here comes these wonderful, here's my, my responsibility is unfolding without planning from a place of planning. I'm in planning.

[32:21]

but I'm just letting it be, and from that comes this activity which is not planning, but it's also not getting rid of the planning. Yeah, you're discovering it. Very good. Yes. How to relate to desire? Desire. Any examples you care to offer? Hmm? Yeah. So you feel like without desire you can't work hard. Yeah. desire and control are closely related.

[34:01]

The, I should say, desire and the wish to control are closely related. In a way, the desire is in some ways more basic. We desire, usually, some change. But desiring a particular change, desiring a particular change is delusion and suffering. Even if you don't move on to say, well, I need the desire in order to work hard, because that's another desire, you desire to work hard. So how can we relate to desire?

[35:04]

How can we let desire be? Because again, trying to get rid of desire is another delusion. it seems to me really good that you seem to be aware of desires. Now there's an opportunity to practice compassion towards your desires. And again, practicing compassion towards your desires is not to try to get rid of your desires. also you seem to have opinions about your desires.

[36:12]

Like for example, I need this desire in order to do some other things which I desire. Like I desire this thing here and I have to work hard to get that, so I need to work up my desire so I can work hard to get this other thing I desire. This is like a normal human situation. And you have a responsibility to take care of these desires. And you can. I mean, you are taking care of these desires. And I hear you asking for some guidance about how to take care of them. How to listen to them with ears of compassion. So the desires may continue to arise, but now you can cultivate a practice of listening to them and observing them and listening to them and observing them.

[37:28]

And like I said before to the lady who was talking about the planning, this listening and observing can go on while this desiring and suffering is going on. So I'm not telling you to stop this desiring, which is suffering, which leads to desiring and more suffering. I'm not saying to stop that. I'm saying you have the responsibility, you have the ability to respond in a new way to this pattern which fortunately you can see. this pattern is calling to you and to us to witness it. And this pattern may change somewhat or it may seem to be pretty much the same thing over and over, which is also uncomfortable over and over. So this pattern of desire

[38:30]

and frustration and stress and affliction and desire, this pattern may go on. But there's this other thing now we're talking about, which is the listening to the suffering that's calling, calling, calling for compassion. And without the pattern even stopping, this developing compassion starts to generate happiness and peace simultaneously, simultaneously at the very same moment as this delusion process. So the delusion process is going on and now the compassion process is going along right alongside of it. They are together. They already are together. And if we develop the compassion side, which is not trying to stop the other side, compassion is not trying to suppress desire and fatigue and disappointment and frustration.

[39:50]

It's not trying to suppress it. It's witnessing it. It's listening to it. It's watching it wholeheartedly. It's not trying to control it. It's observing the attempts to control it, which are just another version of desire. So this great compassion is inseparable from great delusion. They're going together all day long. And The more you're aware of the delusion side, the more you can be aware of the compassion side. The more you're aware of the compassion side, the more wholeheartedly you can embrace and be with the desire and frustration side. Okay. Is that enough?

[40:51]

Nobody said no. Maybe it is. Thank you very much.

[41:00]

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